[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that makes total sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes usually that makes total sense, is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way. Every day.
I'm just gonna say this up front. Hopefully this won't, the conversation won't be interrupted, but I've been experiencing some technical difficulties. Doctor Brenda I am the age that this used to come up on the tv screen with a bunch of rectangles in different colors that was, we're experiencing, you know, that the major network sometimes was experiencing technical difficulties on the television screen. And this is what I feel like a little psa that says that. So, yeah, anyway, I'm thrilled to be sitting across from you in different time zones in different parts of the country, but the tech is here right now allowing us to do this. I'm sitting, guys, with doctor Brenda Salter McNeil. Just if you knew the impact, I probably should have done this offline, but if you knew the impact that your ministry and your work has had in my life and my ministry in my work, I mean, I just want to start off by just saying thank you, thank you, thank you for what you have done and what you continue to do. And then, you know, we'll talk about what you're continuing to do in this new book that you have coming. But thanks so much for sitting down with me today.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really my pleasure. I'm really, really happy to be with you.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: So we're going to, we're going to talk about this one. Empowered to repair, becoming people who mend broken systems and heal our communities.
I was going to start with Nehemiah, but I'm not. I'm going to say this first. The subtitle becoming people who mend broken systems kind of want to pause there. My first graduate degree is actually in social justice and organizational systems, which go together. Right. And I think, I feel like people are being educated in this more. I mean, it's 2024. I feel like this is happening, but I also, at the same time feel like this. Even when you start to talk about systems, there is a hurdle there for some folks. Do you encounter this in your work? And if so, how do you encounter that in your work?
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad you asked. And this is a really good starting point. And I tell you why.
You know, I've been doing this for decades, right?
I don't look like it all the time, but it's been over 40 years that I've been doing this. And I'm sincere. I give my whole heart to it, right? It's just how I'm wired, right? So it's not like I'm special. I just am a whole hearted kind of person. So I've been doing this reconciliation work from a christian perspective, you know, for decades and not seeing the type of long term change that I preach about, I write about, you know, and I'm telling you, it gets frustrating to give your whole life or something, and the colleges you've been to, the churches you've been to, the conferences you've been to, and everybody's like, yeah, that was great. But then you don't see any, any change. And so I have in the back of my mind been wrestling with, why not?
What is it that keeps sincere, well meaning christians stuck that in their heart? They swear, and I believe them, that they want reconciliation.
But we literally don't see it happening in ways that sustainable that changes something. Here's my aha.
We come into faith through an individualistic lens. Jesus is my personal savior. I invited Jesus into my heart.
I am not a racist.
I, right. When you talk to somebody who's a believer, it generally comes back through the door or the window of individualism. And that's what has been the biggest hindrance to systemic change.
We all try to do our own individual part.
And now I'm suggesting with everything in my being, we are not going to be the people who God has called us to be, who have been entrusted with the Ministry of reconciliation until we begin to expand our lens from an individualistic commitment to a systemic commitment to create change at that level.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Okay. Good thing I didn't have many notes because they're all just went in the trash, but because, I mean, we're going to get there in the book, but this is around it. So I'm, I have lots of things flowing in my head right now.
One of Lisa Sharon Harper's books a few years ago, right. I'm thinking about this shalom when she and Brigham and are talking about the connection, the in between places, but also how you just described this. Our envisioning of Shalom is really skewed, but it comes down to what you're saying. But our soteriology is very skewed because exactly as you said, we see salvation as in an individualistic way. And in that way, I mean, I think we're having this conversation yesterday. This is kind of what's fun about working part time and it's seminary is you sit down and eat tacos and then things always come up, right. So we're talking about theology and anthropology and, you know, all these kinds of things. We're saying how we think about ourselves, of course, influences how we think about God. And so when we, when we limit, I'm going to say this. When we limit God and soteriology and salvation to say, okay, Brenda, you're saved and your husband is saved and your daughters are saved and it's all about me. And we have no visioning for God saving the world. I mean, even think about that. JOhn 316 the first, like, if you have been in Sunday school, you know, John 316 for God so loved the world that he saved. Doctor Brenda it's like, what is this?
[00:06:48] Speaker B: And that's how we evangelize one at a time.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Because, you know, each person has to make their individual commitment to be transformed. And there is truth to that, but that is not the end of the truth. And so I think what we're trying to do now is stretch our understanding and maybe redisciple. Right. We've been discipled too strongly through individualism.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: And I really do believe that the evangelical faith tradition needs to examine that because we have been called to be the people of God on mission for the kingdom of God. And yes, I'm thankful that I am born again, but it's not just for my own personal kind of betterment or my own personal salvation. I became a part of something bigger than myself and I'm invited to participate in that. And God is reclaiming the whole of creation, not just my life.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: That's right, that's right, that's right. And so we're talking about systems and the other part of this subtitle is community. Yes, because I think that's the other part of it. As we get caught up on the systems, we think, you know, and this is part of the evangelical faith. Traditional says of these things, the answer is more individuals becoming transformed and then those things will happen which we can see, as you've seen in 40 years, this is not, this is not working.
But also we see, as you have described, our faith is very individualistic. And so even when we show up in a communal space, for example, at a worship gathering on a Sunday, I'm facing forward. It's all about me. What am I kind of downloading from God, or what is my experience with God? And then we chat before and after about like, are you going to lunch? How are the kids? Blah, blah, blah. And it even that even though we're together in this tradition, doesn't feel very communal. It's not a communal faith. So we don't really have a paradigm for mending and healing of systems and communities because we don't really have a faith, a communal faith paradigm inside this tradition. It's very individualistic.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: Yes. I'm hoping that people listening to us today will keep listening to you because we really got to keep having those kinds of parts, conversations. It's not because we're bad people. It's not like you and I are throwing rocks at folks. You know, like throwing stones at folks and criticizing. It's almost like, I believe that people really, we're desperate, in need for change. And I really want to say this as well. You know, I work with college students.
I'm really called to the generation coming behind me. And I love it. I really do love it. I'm grateful to have young people look up to me and feel like I'm authentic. And that's what they're looking for at this point. They can disagree with you and it's okay, but they really do need you to be who you say you are, whatever that is. Right. And they have come to the place where they are asking questions about broken systems. They are the ones who understand that this is supposed to have something to do with changing the world around us. This is not just for my personal edification. And so I'm saying to everybody listening to us, we're losing a generation of young adults who have lost confidence in the church because the church has become a place where we go in, like you said, face forward and look at what happens on the stage or in the pulpit and receive what we believe we are supposed to get from that experience. But we do not come out of that with a commitment to be change agents on more of a collective level as opposed to a personal level that must be examined. Because I have two young adults and they love God. I believe that they love their parents. Thank God. I adore them. They don't like the church.
They're tired. They are tired of going to watch the show. They literally are looking for something that will change the world around them. And they have every right to want that.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. That's good. Okay. I just feel like, just keep preaching. I'm going to try and not preach as much, but I want you to keep preaching because that's why we're here. So this, okay, so I, I want, I want to take where we have just been and where we're going to go because, so first of all, you not only do this work for a living, you teach this work for a living. You, you are involved in degree programs that are based in this christian reconciliation work.
And what I loved about this book is that we can see this modeled for us biblically.
I was just listening to, a friend sent over a Barbell homes video, and she was talking about thin places. And she said, let's talk about thin places in the Bible. Right. And that got me, like, kind of fired up, you know, because I'm like, because I'm like, people kind of think we're weird when I talk about a thin place or something. But let's talk about the thin places in the Bible. And I think this, in the same way is, let's talk about what does this reconciliation work look like? We've seen it modeled.
This. And you take one story, there's lots of stories, but you take one story where we have seen this modeled and then some of these places, what did we see being done? How does that translate to contexts where we live right now? So I'll name it. You, you, you start with Nehemiah. I also want to name what you named in the beginning of the book, which is that Nehemiah can be a tricky story.
Say more about Nehemiah being tricky. It makes me nervous because I, I told you before we started recording that, I felt that in the introduction because I was like, oh, I love Nehemiah. And I said that out loud to a professor. And this professor was like, you love Nehemiah? Kind of like I wasn't supposed to love Nehemiah. And then I felt really confused about whether I could love Nehemiah. And so anyway, but say more about the complexity of Nehemiah that we're jumping into, and then we'll kind of go through some of the topics that you have in the book.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it was a struggle. It was a struggle. I ended up taking a lot of time. This book took longer than probably any of the others I've ever written because I want to do work with integrity. I want to do credence to the text and not do my own ise of what I think it means. And there are lots of people, some folks who I've had very intimate conversations with that really are not sure they believe that Nehemiah should be in the canon of scripture, you know, and so, and I had well meaning people who know me well, who've read other things that I've written, who asked me not to use the book of Nehemiah for their own concerns around the issue of Nehemiah excluding people building walls. I mean, have we not been living through a political climate where the mantra was, build that wall, build that wall? And so how do we as christians take this whole notion of a biblical narrative that builds walls to keep certain people out and other people in? What? I mean, it sounds like we read that in the newspaper. And that's why people came to me and said, hey, this is a colonialized lens here, and I don't think you should do that, Doctor B.
So I embarked on a year long study.
I had to go deep, deep, deep into interrogating this, talking to scholars, reading more than I had any idea that I would read, to be able to write. But I came to my own conclusions. And it's okay for us to wrestle with scripture. I think that's why it's why it lasts centuries and why we each have to keep grappling with it, and why I think we can come to our own conclusions around it.
I'll say one last thing, and then I'd love to hear what you think. One of the persons who was most concerned was a white male who I really, really, really appreciate. He's doing his own doctoral work, and he is really very much doing a different approach to Ezra Nehemiah. Right.
As we. As I and he kept wrestling with this together and what have you, I came to the conclusion that as a black woman, my lens is not, from the perspective of the colonizer, my lens and my narrative. As a black woman whose ancestry is that of having been colonized, that means, and this is important for people to understand. As we read scripture, we bring a lens to the text, and that lens that we bring influences and informs how we situate ourselves in the text.
I see myself as those who are. Who have been taken, those who have been put into more of a subordinate than a dominant position. I know what it is to be a black woman. I know what it is to have to, even at this stage of the game, keep proving that I am who I say I am, at the level at which I work to become the doctor that I am. There are still men who question a woman's authority, right? And so when that's the case, the nehemiah story speaks to me and my lived experience differently. And that's as valid as a person who says, I inherited being able to choose to keep people out of my church. I inherited the dominant cultural narrative that I get to decide who's in and who's out. And so that young man and I, who worked on this and wrestled with this together, I said to him, do your doctorate work and do interrogate the text from that perspective.
I, on the other hand, will try to empower those who knows what it is to have been kept out.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. No, this is.
This was tough. It really was. But I think so. A couple of thoughts I have on that, since you asked first, is, I think this goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning, about kind of losing this communal aspect of faith. Because what you just described, it's not only valid, it's incredibly valuable.
What you're describing, what I'm hearing is, this was a valuable experience for both of you. For him to sit with you and hear what it is like for a black woman to read Ezra Nehemiah, and for you to sit with him and to hear what it is like for him to read Ezra Nehemiah. And then when we are wrestling with the text together, then this, we're all bringing our experiences. I mean, you and I have been in the academy, and this is something that I just think, oh, it's like, I don't enjoy how some perspectives have been taught as, like, this is theology with a capital t, right? So it's like white european reformers. Let's just name who they are. There's a white european reformers then and now that this is theology the way it's supposed to be taught, with a capital t, everything else, you know, okay, so what you're doing, right, is african american theology, or what, you know, someone else is doing is latin liberation theology or what someone else is doing. And there's all these modifiers to theology when there's kind of this one kind of, quote, theology. But when we look at this as a communal faith, which is what it is, then we're all doing this theology together. And so I think that that is what feels important to me.
And what I appreciated about you naming this on the onset in your book is that even I had had similar experiences with nehemiah. I came in going, I'm not supposed to love Nehemiah. I don't understand what's going on, and kind of had that same pushback. But I would say it did two things for me. Number one, it gave me that perspective to go, oh, yeah. I actually hadn't really thought about it in terms of exclusion, you know, this professor's particular point was about the foreign wives being, you know, being sent back and think, and I'm going, oh, dear. Right. This was. Feels very problematic. Right.
But it. But it was helpful for me to understand that as a lens. And so, anyway, when you name this up front, then we can say, we get it. This is a really complex story. Guess what? So are our lives. These are the contexts that we're coming into are really complex, and we named that. I'm not distracted by it. And now I can say, okay, I'm following right with you. I'm tracking with you. I'm understanding your perspective and where you're coming from because there's all sorts of angles to view these texts. And I think you're right, you know, encouraging this other, you know, scholar, do this, you know, do this work from this lens, and I'm going to do this work from my lens. And they both need to be there in the academy. And I would say from, you know, one doesn't need to be viewed as this kind of capital t theology. I think it's. It's helpful for us to have them all. So that's my thank you for saying that.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: I think that's really very important because I think those of us who have come through seminary, we have been given, consciously or unconsciously, the notion that some people's perspective of scripture is the right one and everyone else is to kind of bow to that and, you know, and take that in. But if, in fact, we all see through a glass dimly and we all need each other's lived experience and social, location and cultural perspectives to inform us, then it becomes the wrestling with difficult things, from genesis to revelations. There's stuff in there that doesn't make sense from the beginning to the end, and you kind of go, really? What happened to the baby? Or, you know, really what? He killed his brother? What? You know, there's just so many questions, and I think it keeps us grappling with it when we don't feel like there is an answer. And I got that answer, and you agree with me, and therefore, that means that we are, you know, faithful to the text. I think we're growing and always exploring what is it that God is saying to us at the deepest levels. And it takes different perspectives to keep wrestling with that. So thank you for seeing that. That's what we tried to do here.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think you did it really well. And I think that actually goes into kind of how, kind of where you start off with the book, and that is I will say, I will name in my tradition. Growing up, this is actually part of the reason I started the podcast. It was really, I mean, just kind of a selfish thing. You know, first it's like I want to be able to have these conversations, right? This is like, you know, for my edification. Thankfully, some other people have benefited from it as well. And people like you've been generous to come on and wrestle with me. But in my tradition, growing up, it was faith was about having all the right answers.
So, you know, there's a checklist, there's, you know, we did Bible drills, right? We had all of these things, and it's just like this. This is what it is. And you, even in this conversation, even with, you know, talking about nehemiah in the text, we say, hey, this is just in the way things work. It's not the way things work biblically, we're wrestling. We're asking questions, and in this work of reconciliation, we're also practicing doing those same things. We're asking questions. So I'm wondering if you can start when some of that. I don't. I don't know if you would name it as a paradigm shift for you, but you had kind of an aha. Moment when you started to realize, oh, okay, I think this is maybe where it's at. Is these asking better questions? Questions maybe, than, like, looking for the kind of quote, right answers?
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I'm a change agent. If the truth be told. I write because I can't go everywhere and preach everywhere. But I'm a doer. Okay? So. So I don't write just because I want people to read. I want us to be the church. I am desperate to see change, right? And so, um, for me, it was less. I was looking for a text where somebody was trying to fix something, right?
I needed a bible, something in this bible where someone was working, actively doing something, right? Because back in the days of doctor king, for example, community organizing in the black church was not some side thing. It was a part of your faith. It was expected that you stood against injustice, and you were physically present, working to bring those things that were harming people's lives down. You were working to build structures and law and pass laws and work in neighborhoods and communities where children were not being educated, where people could not sit on a bus. This was tangible activism where people were involved.
So I'm going to calm down everybody. But you can tell that I mean it.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: You don't have to.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: I'm just tired of the lethargy that I see, I am tired of christians talking and not doing.
Someone once said, I can't believe what you say because I see what you do.
A quote by James Baldwin, I can't believe what you say because I see what you do.
And so people of God, people of faith, whatever our faith traditions might be, no one wants to hear us pontificate anymore. We're living in a world that is broken and there are systems that are damaging people's lives. Like when I thought about the border and children being separated from their parents, and like a five year old, a three year old separated from your mom at the border, and your mother doesn't know where they've taken you, and you're so small that you couldn't even begin to imagine how to find your own parents again. Who does that? Who does that? That's evil, in my opinion. See, that's where christians, I think, are supposed to shine for the kingdom of God. That's where human life becomes more important than our political persuasions. And we stand up for that. We say, that baby must be reunited with his or her parents. This is not humane.
But Christians didn't do that en masse.
We weren't known as the people who stood up to say, republican, democratic, independent, it doesn't matter. Human life is sacred. God has made every person in the image of God, and we cannot condone this type of behavior. I would not want anyone to take my child away from me, and I not know how to find him or her. You see, that's the broken systems that forced me, I mean, literally forced me to ask the question, how do we empower the people of God to actually work for repair?
Because it's one thing to wring our hands or go on Facebook or Twitter or social media, Instagram and push a button and say how sad it is. It's another thing to actually do something about it.
And in our communities, the places where we live, where we can actually tangibly see it, that's where we start trying to put these things into practice by trial and error. But we do start to actually do something. That's what this book is all about. That's what's in my heart of hearts, that this is the season that we must shift from talking about it, praying about it, to actually doing something about it.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: I think that when you say trial and error, I'm going to say that was one of the threads throughout the book that hooked me because I feel like, hi, I'm Alexis, and I have some perfectionist tendencies. And so sometimes there are people who are like me, who, number one, they're asking the questions, what do we do? And then also, at the same time, I think there's also this fear that if we step out and do the thing, it's going to be the wrong thing.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Or it's, it's, you know, I didn't mean to make it worse, but I made it worse or, or it did nothing or, you know, whatever. And, and there's this fear. And throughout the book, what I hear you saying is there's, we're going to mess up sometimes. We're going to make mistakes. There's, early on in the book you say there's no such thing as generic ready made reconciliation, which me, when I hear that, says there's not a formula, Doctor Brenda, you're not, you didn't write this to give me a formula and say, okay, in your space, you just plug in A, B, C and D. You square this, you divide this and then boom, you have what you need to do. I'll mail you the poster board. You can put the signs up. Like it's, that's not it.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Nope, not at all.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: And if there's no ready made solution for this, then we're going to try and fail some and we're going to fail sometimes, but it's better to, to try and, to do stuff to educate ourselves and actually try and do the work. I mean, even now, if we talk about Nehemiah, you know, even now, we say, look, some people are looking back and going, man, Nehemiah screwed up and some people are going back and go, wow, what a hero. Nehemiah, you know, even now this, he's not, you know, this, you know, clear kind of picture. But he worked his character. We see that he worked and he did something and he was trying in his best to be faithful to God, faithful to his community, faithful to the people around him.
[00:29:50] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: And, and doing, and doing the work. That's right.
So since I do, since I do actually like Nehemiah.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: I want to talk a little bit about, because everybody's got something they can do. And I'm thinking about Nehemiah, like who his character was.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: Because he had some privilege.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. And so do we. Right.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: That's right. Right.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: These college educations, these doctorate degrees, this access to privilege and power and all of the, I'm, I'm, I'm way beyond where my parents started. Way beyond. And I'm grateful. Right. And I think that, that for that reason, what I like about Nehemiah is, I could see myself in his story. It's easy to become the cupbearer to the king and just be like, well, I made it. Look at, yeah, I'm here.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Sorry for y'all.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: And I mean, I'm praying I care. But, you know, life has taken me into a different direction and given me access to privilege and to power. I have a position. I'm a professor. Are you kidding? You know, really? So it says that no matter how, where we ascend to in the social structure of our society, it doesn't mean that we get to be distant from the concerns of people.
That's what this book says to me. Nehemiah did not have to care. He did not have to leave his job, and he did not have to go back to the hood or wherever he came from, where things are in disrepair.
Wherever that is for you, it could be rural America, someplace where people's life expectancies are diminished because of lack of job opportunities and where the environmental surroundings, because of coal mines or other things are just not healthy for folks. So when I say, quote unquote, the hood, I'm not just talking to inner city. There are places all across this nation where people are hurting and where people are starting to feel like, does anybody care? Right? And so those of us who by some grace of God made it to another level somehow we have access to privilege and to power and to positions that give us an ability to make a difference. This is why we decide why we got all that. Was it just for our own self aggrandizement? Was it just for our own pockets to be filled? Was it just so that we could live the life that we dreamed of? Great, wonderful. Thank God. But no, it's not just for that. We're all supposed to be invested in the common good. So that's, that's what I see in Nehemiah. That's why I chose this book. And to wrestle with it a little bit sometimes when you talked about the trial and error, I mean, I meet people sometimes in an airport and they'll kind of go, oh, Doctor Brenda, you know, like, oh, like it's you. And I'm like, I am figuring this out as I go along too. It's not like, yes, I have some expertise, yes, I've done my work. But this community organizing thing, we've lost this in the church, particularly from an evangelical perspective. Now, there's some people, thanks be to God, particularly people of color, people in Latin America. There are some people who are doing some street level organizing. But those of us who have been discipled through an evangelistic lens and dare I say, white evangelical lens, something of being a part of collective movements for social change, got lost in that evangelical approach to faith back through the individualism door. So even I, who went to Fuller seminary, even I, who was a part of intervarsity christian fellowship, and no shade on any of that, thank God for what I learned. But it did not teach me how to do community organizing, I can tell you that. So I had to take a class. I had to go to this Harvard class with this jewish professor, Doctor Marshall Gantz, and I had to study, how does one do community organizing? I did not develop a muscle for that. So let me tell you real quick about trial and error, the very first class for this graduate course in Harvard that cost money, you guys. I didn't take it for free. I had to belly up to the bar for this class. So I am in this class. People from all over the world are taking this class virtually with Doctor Marshall Gantz, who dropped out of Harvard when he was a college student to march with Doctor King and was a part of the Montgomery bus boycott. So he, after Doctor King was assassinated, he went and worked with Cesar Chavez in the farm workers movement. So this person is an OG in community organizing. Okay?
The very first class, he says this question, and it's in the book, how did you learn to ride a bike? Now, again, there are people on this, on this zoom in the Zoom class from Kenya, Costa Rica, Australia, Canada, you name it, all over the world, people were in this class.
People started talking about how they learned to ride a bike from all over the world. At some point, doctor Gantz listened to everybody. And then he said to us, and I say to you, did you hear anybody say that the way they learned to ride a bike was by reading a book?
And we all kind of went, oh, wow.
And then he said, you see, you think that by taking this class, you'll just read enough and you'll know how to do it. You learn how to ride a bike by riding the bike, and you're going to fall. You, you were little. Somebody held the bike for you for a little bit. You tried to pedal, you looked back and you fell over, you scrapped your knee, they helped you up. Mom and dad or your sister or brother, somebody said, okay, baby, try it again. This time, don't turn your head around.
So for those of us who don't want to make a mistake, don't, don't, don't, you know, don't even think that way. People know, and I said this at the beginning of this podcast, young people like me, not because I'm perfect, I'm not. They believe that I sincerely am trying.
They feel like, doctor B, you really want to see us do this? You want to see us make it. You're who you say you are. So I would say to anybody listening to this podcast, yeah, you're going to make mistakes. And that's exactly how you learn to ride a bike. You get better the more you do it. So just get on a doggone bike, put on some knee pads and start pedaling.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: It's so intimidating, though. I mean, it feels really intimidating because you're 100% right and it feels really scary. I would say. I'm speaking for me, it feels really scary. I know. And I'm close with some people who don't have the risk aversion that I do who say, let's just go. Let's just do it. You know?
And for me, I love reading, so I say, dang it, I wish I had learned how to write it back from reading a book because then I could prove that guy wrong. But it's not true. It's. And he knows that and you know that and.
But this is really tough and I think it feels. Again, I didn't know I was going to beat this drum, doctor Brenda, but I am. I'm going to beat this community drum. And I think it feels. I will say, I'll speak for myself.
I think I can name now in this conversation that it feels scary for me because community isn't something that's ingrained in my faith tradition. And so when I look at the work of reconciliation, I see this as being.
There's a lot at stake because it's other people's lives that are at stake. But when I'm just not accustomed to living deeply in community, when I step out to do a reconciliation activity or start to do this work or whatever it is, it feels like the stakes are even higher, maybe because I'm not ingrained in that way on my. On the regular.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: So all of my other faith activities are not ingrained in community in the way that maybe they ought.
[00:38:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: To be. Or maybe, maybe if we look the way that maybe they were, we were designed to live in some ways. And so because I'm not accustomed to that, then I say I'm going to step out and do this work of reconciliation and. But it feels scary because I recognize that someone might get heard or it may not be move forward the needle like I want it to, but then it feels scarier. And I think maybe that's partially because I'm just not used to living that way with people. If I was used to kind of living deeply, deeply that way with people, we're going to bump up against each other. We're kind of going, you know, when I fall off my bike, that might tip yours. And then we both have to get up and figure it out and scrape our knees and clean them up together. But if the only time I ever try and ride is when I feel like a lot of this at stake is reconciliation, then it feels more intimidating maybe than it would otherwise.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I love your truthfulness. I really do, because that's. That's something for us to look at, because I think we've been socialized to think, I've got to be good at this. I don't want to hurt people. So that's a message that's in our head that I think we got to interrogate. Because look at nehemiah. All I know, you know, is Nehemiah's heart gets broken. He identifies with these people. He's not a doggone builder, this guy. He doesn't have no PhD in construction.
All he knows is, I'm going to go home and I'm going to help. So he surveys the situation to try to figure out how bad is it. You know, he does have some access to some resources that he can bring, but he can't build that thing by himself. He needs the other people. He's got to do it in community. And let's just dream a little bit now. Let's play with it a little bit. Let's imagine we're on the work crew. Women on the work crew, you know, old people on the work crew. This guy who's a perfumer, I'm thinking how the perfume man get on the work crew. So we got all these people who, under normal circumstances would not be working together, would not be using their hands to build walls and do stuff. Construction work, really? Right. And I bet in my sanctified imagination, I can only imagine that's how black preachers talk. But that I. I can only imagine people looking at Nehemiah, like, who's got this big time job, you know, out there on the construction site, you know, picking up bricks and stuff and carrying stuff and loading wood on. They're like, yo, look at him. He's like one of us. You know what I mean? Maybe he couldn't carry it by himself. And somebody said, hey, go help Nehemiah. Cause he's trying to pick up, too. Would you go get some of those bricks from him? I think there is something about being vulnerable together, not knowing that we can do it. Maybe that makes people look up to us. Maybe it is the fact that I can't do it alone that speaks to the integrity of our communal faith together. She's just one of us. She's just trying to be helpful, just like all of us. Amen.
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Amen. Okay.
I didn't prep. Well, we didn't prep for any of this, so who am I kidding? But what you just said, I'm like, do you have any stories, any examples where you. Where you encountered something like that in your actual work? You guys being a group of people, just like, we're just out here. Like, we're. We're just all trying together.
And, you know, because what I heard in that a was everybody's kind of vulnerable in that situation. But also, I'm imagining myself in my sanctified imagination on that work crew, thinking I don't listen, nobody wants me on the construction crew. Nobody really does. I I mean, I didn't technically flunk out of my architecture major, but trust me, it did not last long. I was not supposed to be there, really. But I am thinking if someone came over to me and said, put a nail here and another foot put it here, and another foot put it here, and they held my hand while I hammered that thing in, I can nail some stuff in. Like, I could contribute.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: In a way. And I could learn some stuff on the job.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: As they say, with a mentor.
[00:42:42] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: With someone who's willing to sit with me and do. And not just talk and not just let me read, but someone who's willing. Like, that person who ever taught us how to ride a bike. Right. Somebody who's willing to put their hand on my seat.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: And say, let's. Let's just keep pedaling and keep pedaling and get back on it. And get back on it. So I heard both of those things, of we're all vulnerable in this space in some degree because we're all trying and we're learning from each other exactly. When we do it. Do you have anything that just immediately comes to mind when you think of space, where you've been in a spot like that?
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah, just recently, there's something in Seattle called community dinners, and it's an organization that basically has spaces. Our church is one of them. Quest Church is one of them. Where we host the community dinner. They bring the food and what have you, and it's for people who may be unhoused. It could be for folks who have small children, but there's food insecurity. It could be somebody who just wanted to come and eat with somebody because they live alone and you know what I mean? But there's a cadre of different kinds of people. And again, I had not gone before, and my pastor kept saying, pastor Gail song Bantam said, hey, why don't you come? Come just hang out. And I was trying to think of, I'm not the best with all things social justice, and so that I don't always know what I'm supposed to do. And so I was feeling insecure once I got there and started just helping to set tables. But then you would just start striking up conversations, and what you don't know is what your presence means. So before I know it, I'm sitting down at a table, and I'm talking to a brother named Mohammed, and he's asking me questions, and I'm asking him questions.
It's different than just feeding the hungry. It's a communal space that's humanizing people, where Mohammed's words to me are as valuable as my words to him. I'll close by telling you. There was a young man who was sitting alone and said, hey, you want to sit with me? And I said, sure. And so his name is Joshua, african american guy. And we're talking, and I'm just talking. I have skill in that particular area. I'm not good at a lot of stuff, but I'm good at that. So we're just talking. And you know what? He looked at me from across the table, and he said, you remind me of my auntie. And he said, the way you look at me just makes me feel seen.
Now, I would not have put that in community organizing, you know, but something about this black woman looking at that young adult black man who I don't think has a place to live right now. But in that moment, something felt like home. And my body and my ability to just look at him like I was looking at anybody. My cousin, my nephew, whoever. I just looked at him like, hey, Joshua. And that did something beyond anything that I'd ever anticipated. So I go back to community dinners, because now I know that it's not just what I do. It's the fact that I bring myself to that place and we discover together what my body is to do there. Did I serve some plates? Yeah, I did. I also ate dinner and I looked at Joshua and he felt seen.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: Thank you so much for sharing that, doctor Brenda. That, that felt really meaningful to me on a whole lot of levels for a whole bunch of different reasons. But one of them was when you said something about not being kind of knowing everything about all things social justice. And I think, really, Doctor Brenda, you don't, you don't know everything about.
But it, but it made me feel like, okay, maybe that's if Doctor Brenda doesn't feel like she's, you know, an expert in all things in this area, maybe it's okay for me. I know that I'm not, but it's okay to go ahead and step out because that hasn't, not being an expert hasn't immobilized you in any way. You're just, you're still doing the work. I mean, you're, you're still doing the work. Um, there were just a couple of, I mean, I, there were a whole bunch of places that I was hoping that we could talk about, but I want maybe, oh, goodness, I'm looking at this going where, where do I ask you to go in the time that we have left? I think one thing is if we are maybe two things in this order, and you can spend however much time you want on each one of those.
One is opposition.
That is, it just feels, it feels hard. We know that it exists. But I think what I appreciated about how you wrote this section in the book is that you name both external and internal opposition, because, and I would say that's something, I mean, you and I could probably do a separate podcast on this, but I think I talk to a lot of women in ministry, and sometimes there is this really weird kind of thing where you're going. I don't know. I kind of expected her to be with me on this, you know, and, you know, and I talked to friends and other women in ministry, and that isn't always the case. So that's kind of just like an anecdote to say sometimes you're the people that you would expect, you're linking arms with and you're moving forward aren't exactly, you know, you're not on the same page. You might expect it from that guy who looks a certain way, who lives across the street, but you don't necessarily expect, expect it, you know, here. So that internal and external opposition, I think it's, I think it's important to name. I'm glad you did. So that's the first thing. And then after that, maybe where you can, I'll let you maybe kind of wrap us up as we start to close on that is because when I think about opposition, I think about it just among other things that would wear me out. That just wears me out, you know, to think about someone just being a opposed to whatever it is that you're doing. And we see that a lot. We experience that a lot when we're doing the work. So how do you rest? You know, how do you receive respite? How do you allow yourself to get that? I will do a little spoiler alert with the phrase that I love that you used, which was faithful exhaustion in that section. And, you know, but I think I wanted to go straight there, but then I was reminded of this opposition piece because we're talking about working and trial and error and community and all of that. But. But included in that, I think it's important to name that we will face forces, people, systems, whatever it is, who are just trying to push back.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Against whatever it is that we're trying to move forward doing.
[00:49:57] Speaker B: Yeah. What I love about the questions you've asked today is how much they're reflective of the culture in which we've been socialized. Like our concern that if I'm not good at something, I don't want to do it because I don't want to hurt somebody by mistake. But the belief system is that I need to be good at something before I can try it. So I'm trying to, you know, say the counter to that, hey, I think that what I'm learning about this is that we walk by faith and not by sight, which is what our scripture says. We get on the doggone bike knowing that we're not great at it, but we get better at it by actually doing it. Follow me, said Jesus.
So just where we go, just follow.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Right, right. They weren't always great at that.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: No, no. So, welcome to humanity. So maybe those of us who do podcasts and stuff, we just need to say to people, hey, let's interrogate the messages that we've received in this culture that demand that we be good.
Let's go under that rock and try to say, where did that come from? Where did this exceptionalism, this perfectionism?
When do we stop being human?
When did we come to the conclusion that you don't try unless you're good? No, that's not true.
And I believe, and this is me preaching. Now, the truth will make you free, and so just tell the truth. I like people liking me, and so I don't do things unless I do them. Well, because I want to be liked. Okay, now that's the truth.
You know, whatever that is, say that because the truth.
[00:51:39] Speaker A: But it felt loud. I felt like your volume got increased for a second.
Yes, you're right. You're right. Yeah.
[00:51:47] Speaker B: So I think as christians, because I love God and I love the church. I really do. I love being a follower. Christ. I just believe that we desperately need us to show up now and not in costumes. I think we got to show up as the people of God on mission for the kingdom of God. I think we've got to get rid of the stuff that's been putting us in corners and polarizing each other. I think that this work of reconciliation is something that can bring people together. I think that that just like in the story of Nehemiah, people under normal circumstances who would have never been in a co collaborative project together now find themselves bound to something together. So right now, we're living in a world that's so divisive, so divisive, so polarized, so destructive. And social media allows the opposition that you talked about to come from perfect strangers you don't even know, and you now have somehow taken the audacity to come on my public platform and tell me who I am or what I should or should not do. It used to be that people who had to say things to you had to be in proximity to you, and then there could be a conversation. Now there's just people throwing rocks in anonymity and it hurts. So, yes, we should expect opposition if we try to live for the kingdom of God. Yes, we should expect that. People who have already chosen their corners are now deciding, are you with me or against me? And those are the only two things. And this political climate that we're in is ramping that up. So I'm hoping that the church, those of us who are christians, can find that place of saying, I'm not defined completely by my social status, my political persuasions. I'm not defined. I'm defined by the kingdom of God. That's the ultimate thing that causes me to be who I am in this earth. And how do I represent this God who loves all people? How do I represent this God who made all people in God's image? How do I hold to the things that I believe, and how do I also do so in a way that's not so polarizing and so oppositional that I hurt people in the process of trying to be a Christian and with the people who are external to, you know, to whatever it is I'm trying to do. Basically, I kind of hear it, but I don't, you know, at this point, I'm not trying to do this to get the approval of human beings. I hope that what I do is, and I say this and can almost cry, this is. This happens as one gets older. I say things from my heart, and I can feel the sincerity of it. I want God to be able to say to me, well done. And I'm just trying to do my little part. You know, I feel sometimes like a kindergartner on stage where you come out, you say your little speech, or sing your little song, and you curtsy and you just go on, and your mom and dad claps like nuts. You know, everybody that was so wonderful. And all I sang was little lamb or whatever it was. I just want to please God.
I really want to please God. And so the external opposition. The internal opposition, right. I think I hear it. I consider it like I did for the dear brother who raised questions. I consider it. It's not like I won't listen to people. But ultimately, I think we find ourselves rooted in who we understand God to be. And so I would say that the question about rest and restoration, I think part of that is not just doing. Doing spiritual disciplines to do them, because I'm the person who wants to, you know, I'm like you, I'm perfectionist. I want to be a good christian and all of that. I think instead, God has made us to be human beings and not human doings. And it's God's job to save the world. It's God's job to redeem all things. And we're just doing our little part right. So we should, I think, spend the time not just being active to show that we're doing something. I think we also spend time being reflective so that in those moments we can hear. All God wants me to do is go to that dinner and sit across that guy and have a good conversation with him. That's. That's my little job for today. I'm gonna take my little curtsy and I'm gonna go home. So it takes us from making ourselves the center of the show, and it puts God back at the center. And we're just saying, lord, just tell me today what you would have me do. Help my eyes to be open to where you want me to be. And if I hear you saying that you're the good shepherd who leads me in paths that are right, and you bring me beside still waters, and even when I walk through the valley of shadow, of opposition, from the outside and the inside. Just help me to know that I'm walking with you and help me to start to attune myself better to when it's you talking and when it's me, because sometimes I think it's God, but it's really, Brenda, the more we stay in God's presence, the better we get at distinguishing the difference between the two.
What you think about all that?
[00:57:14] Speaker A: I mean, yes, say it again. Yes. That's the real truth.
What I think about all that, I think it's, I think it's wonderful. And I think, I feel really encouraged.
And I just want to encourage folks when you grab a copy of this and look at Nehemiah to, we named it at the beginning. So I just want to say it again. Part of what Nehemiah was doing in this story is he is doing his best to, he's in the repair work.
[00:57:46] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:57:47] Speaker A: This place where his people were, was broken.
And it doesn't take much to look around ourselves in our own contexts and see the broken places that are affecting the people around us and that we can follow this example that we see. And what can I do with what I have? How can I, how can I jump on the dog on bike and work for repair right here? And your example to us for all of these decades is, as you've said, it's someone we can look to and say, she's trying.
She's trying. How can I steal a little bit of your courage and can borrow a little bit of your courage and say, and I, and say, I can try and do it in this space because it matters to the people who are inside of the broken systems. And it matters, as you said to our witness.
[00:58:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:58:59] Speaker A: Because people are seeing what we're not willing to do.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:59:03] Speaker A: That we're not willing to hop on that bike. Yeah, sometimes. And people see that. And so I think just trying testifies, just trying does something for that witness that we're, you know, that we're trying to live faithfully. So, Doctor Brenda, I'm just so appreciative of your work and at this conversation.
I used to do this a long time ago when I had preachers on sometimes.
Would you, would you close us in a word of prayer? Just. And it may be an encouragement for people who are listening who might be ready to grab their bikes, the garage. Would you be one to do that for us?
[00:59:51] Speaker B: I would be honored to. And this has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation. Thank you.
[00:59:56] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:59:56] Speaker B: So let's pray, Lord. First we just breathe the very first human you just breathed. And they became a living soul. Animate us. I pray with each breath we take, remind us that it's a gift from you and that we are on this planet for purpose. We're not just taking up space and time, but we have become a living being reflective of who you are. And we pray now that as we go through this world, not just with our words, but with our actions, people would see you.
They would see a glimpse of who you are, how you care, who you love, how you repair. I thank you in advance, Lord God, for the transformation that will happen in our lives by just simply trying. And I thank you, Lord God. I sense in my heart and soul that people will experience joy, unspeakable and full of joy, full of glory, because they had the audacity to try to make their world a little bit better. You'll change us because of it. And I look forward to hearing from all over the places, people who said, wow, what a ride. God is awesome. Let it be so. We pray in Jesus name. Amen.
[01:01:26] Speaker A: Amen.
All right. Again, this has been time well spent with doctor Brenda Salter McNeil talking about her newest book, empowered to repair, becoming people who mend broken systems and heal our communities. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for coming on.
[01:01:45] Speaker B: My pleasure.
[01:01:47] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Busetti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit
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