[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Claude, I'll have to tell you that as I I have a copy of your new book that we're going to talk about today, Rhythms of Faith.
And I am in a time of like, I would say, upheaval. Sounds like real dramatic, but at the same time, moving is a lot. Our family just moved in the last month and everything's new, everything's brand new. It's a new city, it's all these new places. And so obviously there are nights when I sleep better than others. There are mornings when I feel more refreshed than others.
And one thing that I have really enjoyed is because I would often have the habit of reading books for the podcast before everyone gets up in the mornings because we talked pre record. We each have a few kids. Sometimes it's loud at my, at least in the room. I can understand that it's loud when people get up. I mean, maybe they takes them a minute, but when they get up, it's like everybody's up.
So sometimes, you know, I sit down, my pup joins me on the ottoman and, you know, sit down. And I enjoy reading books for the podcast before everyone else gets up. This was a real joy because it's actually a devotional and so it felt like, oh my goodness, yes. I mean, all the books I read through podcast are Excell, but this one just felt like, oh, this feels like the right space for this, the right time for this. And so full disclosure, while I did not get through the entire book before we were chatting today, I was so happy to have it on my table by my chair in the morning. So thank you so much for that.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. One of the things that I'm excited about for Rhythms of Faith is it's exactly that type of book. I think it's a beautiful book in terms of the design and it's one that you can have right there on your bedside on your coffee table. And because it goes through the whole church year, it really is designed for you to use it as kind of makes sense. And so it's okay for folks to pick it up, go through it for a Stretch, maybe set it aside and then come back to it. It's like that friend that's always there, always wants to hang out and be with you. That's. That's kind of what. What this book is meant to do. So it's super cool to hear you experience that in the midst of even a move.
Yeah.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: I'm glad you mentioned the beauty of this book because, I mean, even I just have the advanced copy, and even the advanced copy is really pretty. I mean, the COVID is beautiful. Full name of it is Rhythms of Faith, a devotional pilgrimage through the church here, which you already mentioned. So I'll say, as we're recording this, we are in Ordinary Time, and I want to ask you. Maybe we'll start with Ordinary Time, but I really want to ask you for those of us who are maybe less familiar with the church year, or even folks who maybe grow. Grew up in denominations or traditions who embrace the church year. And I feel sometimes it's just one of those things. Maybe if it. Maybe this might be some people, sometimes things that are always there, we don't necessarily go and dive in. Or like, what are the origins of this? Or what are some of the really intricate parts of the tradition that we may not know because we're kind of so accustomed to hearing, oh, this is Ordinary Time. This is Pentecost Advent. You know, it just becomes kind of. Kind of the. Kind of our routine, kind of our regular thing.
But starting with Ordinary Time, because that's where we are.
I will confess I had the same thought as you confessed in here, which is like, oh, it's ordinary.
Like, it's plain. Like, this is plain Jane Time. Okay. This is not what it means.
You also did not grow up, I think, in this tradition. You've recently come to embrace a church tradition who goes by the calendar. So I'm hoping that may be. I mean, I think you're a great person to kind of talk to me and maybe a lot of folks in the audience about what this is, what this looks like, how we can embrace it, even if it's not something that our regular Sunday church does on a regular basis.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And that really matters a lot to me.
I wrote this book for a number of reasons, but one, I wanted to provide a devotional resource that was both accessible and had substance and depth to it that really be a way for people to encounter Jesus.
And I think one of the significant ways that we encounter him is through the shape of our lives, which is marked by time and how we keep time and even in our minds how we conceive of the movements of time. And so, you know, I talk about this a little bit in the introduction. You know, I think it's just helpful for us to recognize there's always a frame to our understanding of time and our lives and kind of. And that's true in any culture, any. Any country, any context. And so, you know, in American context, you know, we know the big calendar days, right? We know, you know, the super bowl is a big deal.
We know 4th of July, Juneteenth, you know, Christmas, Labor Day weekend, spring break, Easter, right? And, you know, these are kind of like, holds or handles on which we kind of hook, you know, these movements of our lives. It's sort of the way we kind of keep pace with our year.
And, you know, there's nothing wrong with those things, but there is actually a deeper and in another sense, a higher way of keeping time that draws us not just into kind of the life of, you know, our country or, you know, our culture, but actually draws us into the life and time of Jesus in the way of the kingdom. And so I think at a real basic level, that's what the church year is and can be. And that gift is open to.
To all. You don't have to be in a denomination or tradition that, you know, is all about that. You know, it's something that you can. You can step into in any way that you wish. And I'd also want to encourage people to recognize that most of us are already, like, kind of doing this a little bit. Like, we know, you know, Easter is a big deal, right? So we know.
We know Christmas is a big deal, and not just because of celebration and eggs, but because of the movement of God towards this world in love through the work of Jesus. And so we're already, you know, we're. We're really primed, right, To. To step into kind of living in these rhythms of the church year. So I think that's important to kind of frame that for people.
And then, you know, speaking to some of the different seasons, you know, one of the seasons in the church year is called ordinary time. And, you know, as someone who is new. Newish to a kind of more liturgical church tradition, when I first heard that, I did sort of think, okay, people are admitting that there is a large part of the year that's just, like, boring. Like, there's not a whole lot going on. And then I very quickly found out that's not what ordinary time means. It's a. It's a season in the Church here, Ordinalis coming from kind of like number counting in Latin. My mind's not 100% sharp right now. I can't remember which one it is, but folks can read the book and find out.
It's basically, you're counting from either Trinity Sunday or Pentecost Sunday. You're kind of counting, and it's sort of this. It's actually really beautiful. It's sort of like this marching of time in which everything that's happened before in the church here, Advent and Christmas and Easter and Pentecost, the coming of the Spirit, everything else that's happened in the church here now in Ordinary Time, we begin to kind of like, march that out in our regular lives. And so I think it's really beautiful that there's actually a season in the church year that, you know, may not have the sort of climactic moments like Good Friday or like Christmas Day, but is actually just sort of like this counting this day by day, week by week.
And it's actually in that ordinary life and those ordinary small rhythms that we really learn what it means to follow Jesus in, like, the mundane and in, like, the simple counting that Sunday by Sunday, day by day, kind of taking steps after him as disciples. So that's how I kind of maybe frame the year briefly. We can jump in more, but also give a little bit of a frame for Ordinary Time, which, yes, is not admitting boredom, but is actually saying, this is how time is counted. And we also recognize that there's just a simple pace to that. And that's a gift, too.
[00:09:04] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for that. I do want to come back to Ordinary Time, but there were a couple of things in my mind as you were talking about the framing that just came to my mind that I want to mention. One. One is there was.
There was an ad last month, maybe August, September, where I can't remember what the ad was for. I feel like those are the best ads where you, like, don't even remember the product, but you remember that.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: What it.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: What it was to us, it's the worst to them.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I don't remember. Apologies. I don't remember what. What whoever it was is trying to sell me, but it was like a. It showed scenes of people doing back to school shopping, and it had the tune to Auld Lang Syne in the background. And it basically was saying, you know, this. This. This is the other New Year.
And. And I'm like, yes, but for families with kids, or maybe if you're in college or grad School or whatever, this definitely feels like a new year, you know, and even when we're talking about this, you know, and I talk to my kids, I'll, we'll say this year, next year. But when we're talking in the context of school, we don't mean after January, August, you know, like this, this year, okay, seventh grade, as opposed to eighth grade or, you know, whatever it is. And so I was thinking of different ways of, of marking time in that way, culturally that we kind of do. You know, I was thinking we have Jewish friends who just have celebrated these fall feasts, so there's another new year, you know, for them, celebration, Rosh Hashanah, and then there's, you know, Yom Kippur and all these things that are coming in this, in this timeframe that mark something new or even, you know, a Jewish way of marking a day is starting with the night, you know, starting with the evening.
But these cultural things that teach us about God and community and, and ourselves and how the church year, as you're saying, is another way that the Christian community comes together and, and has a way of marking these things. You know, kind of just like with the school year, like families with kids in the U.S. we're saying the new year or next year, you know, we're talking about back to school time, you know, and it's, and it's, it's another way of marking that as a community. I also love how you point out that this is something that we can, you know, I would say observe, but I would also say this is something that we can, we can kind of dive into no matter what, if we're part of a liturgical tradition or congregation or, or not. I mean, I will tell you, I'm. We have familiarity with both. We just moved, so we don't know where we're going to land right now, church wise. But, you know, I've, I've been called to pulpit, fill in some, you know, churches that are in traditions that are more liturgical.
And so that's, you know, one of the first things I do if I'm not given an assignment is I find out, okay, what week are we in? What are the readings, you know, for this week? What's the theme? And when I sat down with your book, I did the same thing. I was like, oh, let me figure out what week in Ordinary Time we're in right now, and I'll just start reading during this week, because then it feels like, oh, there's going to be something that will speak to me, something that I can meditate on something that's going to be familiar to just like what's happening around me during that time. And so going back to the ordinary time part of it being numerical or ordered, as you mentioned, I also really appreciated what you mentioned about paying attention to growth and change.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: During this time, you named like a ripple effect for the things that we've seen Jesus do during the year. And then I made a note for myself.
One of the things that you. That you point out that we can, like, be attuned to during Ordinary Time when there may. There's not as many feast days, you know, holiday celebrations as there are in other parts of the year.
Is looking for Jesus in the small things.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:07] Speaker A: And that was something.
My husband and I have been taking the dogs out for a walk. We normally do that after dinner. And so because we're in a new city, we're in a new neighborhood, and we've been walking around. And last night I said, oh, my goodness, look at that sunset. And then I said to him, I haven't been outside one night where I haven't said that. Oh, my goodness, look at this sunset, you know, and it's like, I don't know. I'm sure the sun's always looked great. Sunset always looks great. Our former place too. But there's something about, okay, being attuned. Like, you just. You're sharper when you're in a new place in some ways because. Because everything's new. Right. And so you're kind of looking around. And so that's kind of built in to the season that I'm in right now. But then when I also saw that it's this, oh, this is also happening during Ordinary Time.
Oh, I can. That gives me kind of another little encouragement to pay attention to these things, to attune myself to them and to really be grateful. Like, this is some place where I can see Jesus. I can see Jesus in this beautiful sunset every night. There is a lot of my day that feels a little chaotic, but I can see that and I can name it. And then I can say, yep, it was there on Sunday.
Hopefully when we go out again tonight, it'll be there on Monday, you know, and it'll be there in all of these days and all of these weeks. And so anyway, so I just appreciated that wonder, you know, maybe for you, either when you were writing or when you were kind of coming to embrace this church calendar in a new way, semi recently for you, maybe, what were some of the things that, that you learned or stood out to you about this season of Ordinary Time that we're in right now.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: I think, you know, two of the encouragements that I share in the introduction for the section on Ordinary Time are really tied into what you just shared. You know, look for Jesus in the small things and then imitate Jesus in the small things. And I think I was really helped by that, just to sort of have a frame for Ordinary Time and to kind of see this as, you know, this ripple effect of the seasons that have come before. And it's sort of this arena in which we are given and grace the opportunity to walk out discipleship with Jesus having just come through these really big and glorious moments of the church here, like Easter and Holy Week and Pentecost and now, like, let that stream flow into kind of all the small nooks and crannies of, like, my regular life. And so I think one of the things that I learned through Ordinary Time, and I think one of the gifts is that the season comes around year after year, so you learn it more and more, is that, yeah, God really cares about the simple stuff in my life. And that's really where faith is lived, right? It's in all those kind of small moments over time.
So I think that's one of the things that stick out to me, stands out to me about Ordinary Time.
And I love that the color for Ordinary Time is green because it represents, I think, growth, right? And you can think about even, you know, if folks garden or do that sort of thing, which I don't. But I know enough to know, you know, what it's like to see, you know, just. Even if it's a small green sprout, right? Something small that's going. But the joy when you see a little bit of that green and you rejoice in that, and you have. You're thankful and you have hope for what's to come.
And I think in a lot of ways, that kind of can encapsulate some of the movements of Ordinary Time, trusting that Jesus is growing us in thousands of different ways. And some of them we see. And as we see it, we rejoice in it, and we want to participate in it even more.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Thanks, Claude. That brings me to the cycles that you mention in the book.
Like I said, I've been kind of. I have some familiarity with liturgical traditions. It's not where I grew up, but I started spending some time there in college and have kind of off and on since then.
And still a lot of the things that you mentioned were new to me. And Some of them felt really meaningful and beautiful, even if it wasn't brand new information, just the way that you've framed some of it. And one of those things was these cycles that take place during the church calendar year of. You name them as light and life and love and help me. Love, I think, is where we are right now. Love is connected to ordinary. Yes, time.
So I'm wondering if you can maybe start there and then just kind of give us a little recap of those different cycles, the cycle of love, where we are, cycle of light, what we're headed into in just not very long, and then the cycle of life after that with Lent and Easter.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of base this frame, this movement of the church here, these cycles off of the work of Robert Weber and Bobby Goss, who both sort of more recently written on the church here and done so in really great ways. And sometimes people break the church here into two movements. The story of Jesus and then the story of his people. But I like things in three and others do as well. And so I kind of like this. I think there's several different, you know, beautiful frames for thinking about the year.
But in this frame we have the cycle of light, cycle of life and cycle of love. So just starting from where we are right now in ordinary time, it's the cycle of love. And really the idea here is that God is working through us in love and service and mission as we live out the story of Jesus through the Gospel of Jesus that we've just sort of rehearsed in the seasons that have come prior.
So now it's sort of like time for us having been reminded, rehearsed, refreshed, renewed, the Spirit alive in us.
Now we now we follow him, including into the small and simple things. Which is why in rhythms of faith, there's a lot of passages for the devotionals rooted in Matthew. And there are a lot of things like we were talking about Alexis about mission, because it's sort of like, okay, now, now we got to get to it. Now we got to get to the work and the good trouble and all of the. All the kingdom business. Like, now it's time to make this stuff happen, to join Jesus in this work. So that's the cycle of, cycle of love. The church year starts with Advent. So right now, where we are and where folks will hear this, we're in ordinary time and we're moving toward Advent. And so we kind of begin again. And that's the cycle of light. So cycle of light is Advent, Christmas, tide and Then the season of epiphany, or epiphany tide, you can call it either. And so here we have now God with us in the incarnation. And so we're moving to the very heart, the very center, or maybe even better to say the beginning of the story, which is God's movement into this broken world.
The light has come and the darkness shall not overcome it. Right. So this is a sort of like cycle of light is like Gospel of John, chapter one.
And so now it's God with us in the incarnation. And then we move into the cycle of life. Lent, Holy Week, Easter, which is a whole season, not just one day. And then Pentecost.
And now we have God for us in the gift of salvation. And so this is following the movements of Jesus, Jesus with us in the incarnation, for us in the gift of salvation. That's the cycle of life. And then working through us. That's ordinary time and mission. So light, life and love. And you can think about it as with for and through.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: So when you, when you talked about that and you talked about getting to work, I was, gosh, Claude, I was irritated with some of this because you have some talk about waiting and you have to talk about working. And neither one of those are my favorite thing.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: None of us like that.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: Neither one of those are my favorite thing to do.
But I will tell you, I, I mean, and I didn't tell you I was going to bring this up so we can like skip it if you want to. But I will say, I mean, we're sitting here in the fall, we're sitting here in October of 2025, probably, like a lot of people, I have to balance my news intake right now.
There's a huge part of me as someone who, like, considers myself to be pretty justice oriented, to want to consume it all.
I want to know everything that's happening everywhere, all the time.
Not because I want to be mad about it, but I'm going to be mad about much of it.
And I have to tell you that there was something about repositioning on these mornings that I sat down with this devotional to say, okay, and in, in addition to my Times app that's always open like. And we are also people who are discipled to wait and to work and to understand that there are sometimes seasons for both of those things.
I look back at some of the places where you remind us of stories of the disciples, and I was reminded as I'm thinking about some of those stories with the disciples and Jesus, that they had their own ideas.
You Hit on this.
They had their own ideas recorded for us. They thankfully, they had their own ideas of what Jesus, like, should be doing right now and like, what he could be doing right now. And like, why is he not doing stuff right now? And like, what is he actually thinking right now and why is he not kind of following what we are wanting him to do right now? And like, Byron Brimstone is coming up in some of their conversations, as you mentioned. And, and it was. Has been really good for me to. To read this and find some ways, because I would say for me, probably every day is a little bit different, but find some ways to center in what, what was happening there. What really does this mean to kind of be this kingdom centered and to understand that, yes, and all of this stuff is going on at the same time and kind of helping me find ways to hold all of that together at the same time as a person of faith, which can be really difficult. You know, I confess for myself, I sometimes can feel myself oscillating between wanting to just like, be whatever and take action and all this thing and just, you know, up to like feeling immobilized, you know, at the same time.
And so, so kind of, like I said, kind of repositioning, trying to center and saying, okay, there are, there are seasons, but also like, we're not the first generation to deal with injustice. We're not the first generation to deal with faith and injustice. We're not the first generation to deal with, you know, oppression and what do we do and how do we serve the marginalized and all these things like Jesus disciples, I mean, even the prophets before that, right? They're the people of God.
This has been, I don't want to say cyclical, but kind of. This has been a perpetual.
This has been a perpetual situation for the people of God. How do we hold all these things together? How do we act? How do we live out our faith with all of these things happening at the same time?
So I wish there was a question there, but I'm seeing you nodding your head, so I hope you have something to say.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's a few things that I think about. So I think on, like, on a meta level, you know, as you're talking, one of the things I was struck by was the need for action and contemplation. Like, we need both of these things.
So Gregory the Great, in his book the Pastoral Rule, he basically is, you know, one of the major ideas is that, you know, pastors, these shepherds, ministry leaders, right? Use maybe more Modern phrase, you have to be about action, but you also have to be about contemplation. And you've got to get that in the right frame and in the right order. And I think that's not just true for the people who are serving us in the body of Christ as leaders and pastors and so forth, but that's true for all disciples, right, because we are called to the same reality and the same work of following Jesus. And so, especially when things are as they are now, we. We need to be able to contemplate the way of the kingdom, the Scriptures, and the hope that we have in Christ so that we are not simply just overwhelmed by everything going on around us. And out of that contemplation, we're then called to action.
And. And so I think that's really important and, you know, connected to the book. I wanted. I want this book to be a book that enables people to do both by the help of God's spirit. And it's partly why I was really, you know, I'm excited and hopeful that the devotional entries, I think, have a substance where it's like, yeah, you know, there's a way you could do it every day, but it's also, like, there for you, you know, that time of the week where you need to recharge. And it can be a gift of contemplation that can then enable you, by God's help, to move into whatever the action is going to be in your life. And so I'm excited about how. I hope this book can be an aid to, I think what, you know, what many of us are feeling right now as disciples, that there's a lot to kind of keep track of. And there's a lot happening in our world, in our country, that's deeply discouraging. And what does it look like to not flame out from discouragement, but to continue to do the ordinary work we're called to do?
So I think that really matters. And then, last thought is Advent, I think, is a great season to kind of wake us up to these things because of its emphasis on God's judgment. But then how that judgment actually calls us into the sort of just action.
And I'm thinking of, you know, one of my favorite devotional entries, I think maybe in the whole book is.
I think it's entitled the Judge at the Door, and it's from James. And essentially in the passage, James speaks about God's coming judgment. And it's basically leveraged as a comfort to the poor who are being oppressed by the rich in their congregation in the context. So God's judgment is encouragement to them and it's, you know, straight warning right to those who are doing wicked. So I think Advent is a great season where we move into that contemplation and then an action will. Action flows out of it.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I had some notes on that entry, by the way.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: It is called the Judge at the Door. Yeah, this is in the third week of Advent. And yeah, for folks as they're listening, I think that, you know, some people love the daily devotional kind of like rhythm. I've never been a daily devotional to sort of person, so I think it's interesting for me to now write a devotional. But I think maybe because of that, it'll be helpful for folks in the sense that, yeah, I kind of just approached it the way that I would want to read something if I were to read a devotional. And the way it works is essentially you can kind of take things in a daily, at a daily pace, or you can kind of take them at a, like a once a week pace. And you can read, you know, spread out the readings over the week, read the reflection, pray the prayer, think through the reflection question. So it's kind of approach it as you want. But I do think that Advent entry.
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's one that's maybe timely to what you're sharing, Alexis.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I agree with that one for sure. And, and I want to, I don't know what, I kind of want to hang out where, a little bit more where you mentioned the contemplation.
I will say, I'll speak for myself and say I grew up in the Bible Belt in white evangelical space where that wasn't really a word or framing that I was familiar with.
I really didn't become familiar with anything relating to contemplation until just several years ago, probably in seminary, where I was being called on to as a part of my education and training to practice some of the spiritual disciplines from the patristics and yeah, just to practice them for myself.
I came away from that and I joke with my spiritual director and I say, I'm so glad there are contemplatives out there like you, because I'm not one of them.
But at the same time, I am so grateful for this space that she, she provides and that I also am learning to embrace where I, I, I sit in meditation or I just slow down.
I think about space and time differently. You know, just these, these things that for, for Me are, are for many people, they're small things. For me, they take a lot of. Of effort to do. But I also think when you were talking about this, I think, I think there's a temptation maybe from folks like me who aren't very familiar with this to be like, what does that mean? You're just sitting around thinking about stuff or you're not doing anything. And then the inst. Instant rebuttal to that, that came to my mind was Howard Thurman, you know, and I think he really, his life really embodied a lot of what you were talking about of like this contemplation and this just action together. Of course, he was a teacher and everything as well. And so this, we've gained a lot from him. But I was just kind of thinking about, thinking about that and how this church year we talked a little bit pre record about this, this framing of the church calendar and the contemplation, as you mentioned, being helping us with spiritual formation.
And that is something that I think is really important to the conversation because, you know, in part because like we sit here in ordinary time, we're like, the church calendar is really fun when we get to like hunt eggs or decorate trees or you know, like do these kinds of things or when. Or when things look like, look really fun colors or Pentecost, you know, like all these things. But, but to think about the, the formation as a holistic thing and how the church calendar helps us with that, then I think, you know, part of that is kind of this. These two things that you mentioned, this contemplation and just action. This is a very, this can provide some holistic ways for us to experience, experience and participate in spiritual formation, but also to, to look at the world around us. Which is, which is helpful for me, I think sometimes when I feel kind of overwhelmed by the things that are happening.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, contemplation, you know, it always helps me to kind of go back and think of how was this, how are these things sort of like worked out in Jesus own life?
And I'm just reminded of, you know, his practice constantly. We see in the gospel narratives, you know, Jesus withdrew to pray, you know, and we know he was incredibly active. He spent a lot of. He was, he was busy. You know, he's essentially, you know, in many ways a traveling exorcist. Right. And casting out demons and an itinerant preacher and you know, training his disciples. And so he's doing all these things, but he's. He's constantly also withdrawing and so I think he has this mix to be with the Father, right?
And he models, obviously, perfectly right, what this move looks like into contemplation and action. And I think we recognize that we do. We need to be grounded. We need to abide in Him. We need to be hold.
We need to understand ourselves in his light and in his presence. And that's all those disciplines, right, of scripture, prayer, silence, returning maybe to a prayer word each, you know, throughout your day, whatever these different practices are. And they ground us so that we can then walk faithfully with God in this world, you know, loving him and loving our neighbors and proclaiming Christ and doing all of the things that we're called to do as his people. So I think that is really important. I think Jesus is the one we look to for that. And we see, oh, okay, he is. He's set that pattern. Let's live into that by his help, by His Spirit.
And that is very much related to time, because time is what frames our existence, right.
In the sense of Annie Dillard's quote, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives. And so the church year, I think, is a gift for us where we can move into a more contemplative life, even in the midst of all of our activity. Because now we're thinking through the frame of our life, not just through tax day, Super Bowl, Fourth of July, spring break. That's not the frame of our conception of time.
Now we're sort of lifted higher into the life of Jesus. And as we think this way and live into this with others, it now becomes more ingrained within us, right. By the Spirit's help to walk in the ways of Jesus together. So I think the church here, just on its own, is wonderful, but I think, you know, we need others and we need the Spirit to kind of. To make this alive to us.
But he's more than willing. So I think this is a real gift into a life of contemplation and action.
[00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking about kind of the rest of the church year. So I mentioned the waiting and the working parts of the cycle of light, of Advent, Christmas and epiphany.
And. And then I just have. I have notes on.
On the next cycle for joy. More waiting and working, by the way, with Pentecost, But.
But joy. Joy and epiphany. Joy and Easter and.
And, you know, I want to name that, too. I was this morning. I had to take one of my kiddos to a new orthodontist today for a repair you know, so we. We walk in and we're actually. We get everything done. And I didn't notice it when we first went in, but as we out, there's a big canvas on the wall, and it says, smile with an exclamation point. And then underneath it, it says, even if you don't want to.
So as I look over at my son, I say. I read it to him. I say, smile, even if you don't want to. And he gives me this real goofy, you know, whatever he's like, that's what it looks like when you smile and you don't want to, you know?
And I would say I'm struck by that, because I want to name this, because I think one of the things that I've struggled with, and I've seen other people struggle with it, too, especially in this. I'll name it again. Especially in this, like, tumultuous political season that we are in, that we've been in for several years.
I think there is a temptation for this kind of triumphalistic, well, Jesus came and he conquered, and everything's gonna be all right, and amen and smile, even if you don't want to, because we're commanded to rejoice in all things. And, you know, but it can be this kind of, like.
It can be kind of this, like, choose joy, but in a way that ignores some of the things that are happening. And I think that is different than the joy that the Bible calls us to, that the Spirit calls us to, that you're calling us to in this devotion, which maybe looks a little bit more like. Kind of like we're talking about ordinary time, like, noticing the small things, but also like, recognizing maybe not like a smothering on top of, but like an even so Jesus, you know, with all of these things, like, this is the reason, like, Jesus. You know, I had a friend years ago who I was really struggling with something, and I was so upset, and she looked at me and she said, you do know that's why Jesus died, right? And it was just like this. Like, oh, like, even though this thing is so hard, it's this. You do know, right? Like, this Jesus came and overcame, but it's not that there's nothing there that we dampen it. It is like these two things at the same time. Like, we can experience this joy that Jesus brings.
And no, things are really hard right now. Or. And no, maybe it's not something in the world that we're concerned about. Maybe something really, really close to home that we're concerned about and to have these things happening at the same time. And so I want to, you know, bring that up. That. That struck me as well when I was kind of going through the introductions to some of these other seasons that were not quite two yet.
But even Christmas, you know, I've. I have been pregnant, and remember I had pretty good pregnancies, but still uncomfortable, right? And there's like this, you know, there's this joy when the baby comes. You know, we have friends who have just. Who've just had new babies, and it's like there's this joy and it's super hard, and there's a lot there, you know, all these things. And the joy that exists is just overwhelming. And so.
And so I think I want to ask, like, what about that in this, especially in that season of life that's coming up, where we might have our attention drawn more especially we think of Easter, but I also think of Advent, you know, and Christmas, where you have this season of waiting, and then you've got this kind of burst of joy. You talk about it in epiphany as well. Like, you just kind of have to.
Yes, we talk about mission in ordinary time. You kind of have to do something. Like, once you're filled with this joy, then you're kind of. You just kind of feel compelled to do something about it. To tell someone specifically, you say, so in what ways does the church calendar call us to recognize and experience and share that joy?
[00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it calls. The church here. Calls us to share, recognize, experience, joy in that. The church here reminds us that in the context of real life, in the real world as it is, God has broken in and has acted for us, is acting for us, and will act for us in Jesus Christ.
And so that's really, you know, that's the good news.
You know, God comes to the real world and he acts for us in Jesus, and he's working still, and he will be faithful to his work and he will renew all things. And this is what the church holds to. And so the church here allows us to enter into that full story on all of its sort of like major and minor notes. So, like, for example, in Advent, we're thinking. I think the greatest imagery for this is supplied by Fleming Rutledge when she talks about Advent begins in the dark. And so it's the reminder that, okay, God actually comes to the real world. And if you extend that to all of the ways that God breaks into the world, this framework of the three Advents of Jesus, so Jesus breaks into the world in his Incarnation, the eternal Son of God takes on human flesh. Truly God, truly man.
So there's an advent at Bethlehem in the Incarnation.
There's the advent of Christ returning the Second Coming to judge the living and the dead. But then there's also the advent of Christ that's subjective in a sense. Like he breaks into our lives and we see him work in powerful ways.
There's a sense church wise, where the Lord breaks in and is present at the Lord's table as well. So there's sort of the three advents of Christ and, and going back to the quote from Fleming Rutledge at Advent begins in the dark.
It's most true obviously about the Incarnation, but it's also true about the second coming into the darkness of the world, Christ will come again. And it's also true about our lives, into the heartache of our lives, the hurt of our lives, the brokenness of our lives, our world.
Christ is, he is arriving, he is breaking in, he is doing things. He is at work by his spirit, through his people, he's working.
And so Advent sort of takes that larger theme that God has not abandoned the world, but has come to save it. And it allows that to seep into these different parts of our lives. And so Advent will pick up of those notes of waiting, of reflecting. And a lot of that waiting in Advent is actually being honest about the darkness, such that when we get to Christmas and we're talking about the light has come, we actually are celebrating because we know how dark it's been.
And so Advent is not, you know, intentionally depressive or it's not sort of this season where we try to like tamper down our joy to save it for later. It's a season of just being honest so that out of that honesty, God's hope can come with fresh power into our lives and then authentic celebration and joy will result.
So I think that's where you can see that in the Advent frame. Epiphany kind of extends that because it's now about the saving light that's come into the world at Advent, Jesus. But now it's the, the, the shift moves to that light going to the nations. So Jesus didn't just come for one people, you know, the people, the ancient Israelites, but he, he's appearing to the magi, right? He's, he's appearing to, he, you know, the light, the light is, is going forth into the whole world. So epiphany hits those same notes, but it turns up the dial on joy because of where we are in the movements of the gospel story.
[00:44:13] Speaker A: You know, as you were talking, two things, two kind of phrases kept circling over in my head. One was the real world. He just breaks in in the real world. And that.
That feels like a breath of fresh air to think about Jesus and to look for. Where's Jesus breaking in in the real world.
And also something that. A phrase that.
That you said when he was a. Jesus was a traveling exorcist.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: And this was. This was something that I contemplated a lot during seminary because I just thought, this is wild. And I had, you know, certain professors and peers who would point this out. And, you know, even as you're talking, I'm thinking of Mark, you know, where.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: Absolutely, yes.
[00:44:57] Speaker A: Oh, my word. Like, Mark, it's just like over and.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: Over, boom, boom, boom.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: There's all these demons and they're gone. And it'. Yeah, Jesus is in everybody's real world. He's in everybody's business. This is where they want him. And. But it's because, like, there's, like, Stuff is screwed up, man. You know, you've got, like, kids having seizures. You've got kids dying. You've got people who are sick. You've got. I mean, you've just got so many things. And. And the reason I thought Mark. And you know why? Because it's just like. It's just like, boom, and he's here. Boom, and he's there.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: Boom.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: He's there.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: He's everywhere.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: It feels like, yeah, he's everywhere.
He's this traveling exorcist breaking in everybody's real world and taking care of these demons for them.
And the real demons, the demons of sickness and death and oppression and marginalization, and it is just wild to think about. And so in some ways, I even prefer that traveling exorcist as opposed to itinerant preacher. Both, I think, are true.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: Both are true. But, yeah, no, same thing. I think it was. For me, it stood out. The most recent read of Mark, it was sort of just. And, you know, as, you know, a lot of gospel scholarships, like, yeah, you definitely, like, this is. Jesus is obviously more than a traveling exorcist. But you read this, you're like, he's not less.
This is what you would have thought, you know, until, you know, until.
Until he takes his disciples on a mountain. Right. Until you see the empty tomb. But, like, it's like, man, this is what he was doing.
[00:46:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, this is what he was doing. But this. This interruption of the real world, and that just feels so Powerful. And it feels so powerful in this context of the calendar. We think about the ways that Jesus has and continues to interrupt our real worlds, continues to deal with our demons. And then, you know, just like another thing that's been going through my head this time is birthdays, you know, just thinking about how every year we get to relive that. You know, every year we get to relive the waiting. You know, we think about Mary. Oh, my goodness. And. And her.
Mary's song. Because she knew what needed to be interrupted in her own world and in the world of her people and her community and. And the. The waiting that that would entail. And. And we get to relive it again when the disciples are going, I don't think you realize what you just said, Jesus, about what you're gonna do.
And, like, this dying thing doesn't make any sense because that's not really what you're supposed to do. And just Jesus being over and above what we.
Our ideas for how to heal the world, you know, and then waiting and him saying.
Which is so absurd, Claude, that he would say, it's better for you that I would to leave.
[00:47:50] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: That's the stupidest thing that this messiah could say to them.
Like, it's better for you if I were to leave.
No, thank you. You know, I want you here. But again, like, this interruption of our own.
Of our own ideas and our own thoughts of what.
Of what would happen. I want to. I'm going to read this because I thought about. I was like, this was. This was real rich, and I hated it. And the notation I wrote, just so you know, says, whoa, stay out of my business.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: Oh, man. Okay. I'm so interested to see what this was.
I probably felt the same way.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: It's in the fishers of people, so a new way to fish. It's in the epiphany.
But it says, how does Jesus make these disciples fit for the task when their heart, hearts and their minds are like ours, prone to shrink to the size of their misconceptions?
How can Jesus take you and me and make us partners in God's kingdom, work in the world? But it was this.
How does Jesus make these disciples fit for the task when their hearts and their minds are prone to shrink to the size of their misconceptions?
Stay out of my business, please.
[00:49:09] Speaker B: That's a good line.
Sometimes I think. I feel like, as writers, we write things, we're like, wow, like, where did that come from? I was probably. I was pretty good.
[00:49:17] Speaker A: But, you know, interrupting the real world. Right. Interrupting our own misconceptions and we shrink down and then we realize we're serving a traveling exorcist. And that's really powerful and beautiful and meaningful. And we get to celebrate all of his life every year in perpetuity. And one of the ways we can do that is through the calendar. So anyway, it's beautiful.
Claude, I'm curious what closing thoughts you might have, especially for folks who this might be semi new territory for them. They pick up the book especially as we're getting ready to come up against Advent.
Yeah. What encouragement might you have for folks who this is only semi familiar or it's a little bit new for them?
[00:50:14] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, my encouragement would be one to just, you know, applaud you for wanting to take a step into a way of keeping time with the story of Jesus. And so, like, you should be encouraged by that. And I think God will honor that desire in your life. And so, you know, pray for, pray and ask him to do that. And then I would say, you know, just, just start with something small. So like the Advent section. Advent is for four weeks.
That's a great place to start. And I think just figure out the rhythm that, that you might like.
But I think just begin with Advent and just give it a try through that season.
One of the reflection questions I, I think that we have in the book, in the first section of Advent, even if it's not there, you can use this is just before you kind of start with Advent, maybe write somewhere like, what do you, what do you desire God to do in you through the course of the season? And just write that down and keep it. And then, yeah, try, you know, try kind of following, following the rhythms for, for Advent with the book. And then at the end of the season kind of go back and write, you know, what did you see? How did you see the Lord at work in you and around you?
And surely you will and rejoice in that. And then I think going through a season like Advent will help you discern and know how you could maybe just continue and step into Christmas. Right. And I think keeping. Starting with Advent, I think will really enable you to receive some really rich gifts from the church here because it makes you wait and it draws you into the longing and the hope and it'll prepare you for Christmas. And so I think, you know, my, my encouragement would be to try that and to pray that God will meet you in that. And I think he will.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen to that. Thank you so much.
Again, the name of the devotional is Rhythms of a Devotional Pilgrimage through the Church Year by Claude Echo. I forgot to mention you've been on the show before and so I will put the link to our previous conversation and the book that that was about reading black books books in the show notes for this episode, along with the link for Rhythms of Faith and where people can grab that. So it was great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on again and thanks for this beautiful book.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: Thank you, Alexis. It's been fun to catch up. And yeah, I'm thankful for the conversation.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes. Music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit
[email protected] Sam.
