Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that makes total sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but that the how sometimes elusa that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Well, I am so excited to have on the podcast today, Scott Erickson. All the way, I say, all the way from Austin, Texas, just down the road. Hey, Scott.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Hi. I know we're just a long football pass away.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: That's right. We're neighbors practically. Although we did chat a little bit before how being in know Texans say Texas, it's a whole other country. But we did say, I mean, living. You've lived in Houston. Living in Houston and living in Austin are just like totally different things.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Same amount of queso, but very would.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: I would argue same amount of queso. Very different.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Differences for.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So tell us what you do in Austin professionally, and tell us a little bit about your family, too, before we get started.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Well, I'm a professional queso consumer, and then in my spare time, I'm an artist, which is a descriptor that has lots of different meanings. So I'm a visual artist, which means I'm a painter, illustrator, and I translate and contemplate and communicate about the world through that. I'm an author, co author of a couple of prayer books and author of this book and another book coming out next year and try to make experiences through that. And then I am a performance artist, and I do these, like, one man shows, multimedia, sensory, interactive experiences with audiences nationwide. And that together is what I say is I'm an artist.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Oh, I love it so much. So the book that we're talking about today has some striking artwork in it. It's just beautiful, honest advent, and it's got an illustration on the front of a pregnant woman. And so I definitely do not want to forget your introduction of your family because you dive into that in the book, for sure. So go ahead and tell us a little bit about your family.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've been married to my wife, Holly for 15 years. We have three kids, nine year old boy, eight year old girl, and a two year old boy. So back to toddler and diapers and all that stuff.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: You are a brave person.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: I'm in my 40s. We had him when I was 41. 40.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: I was almost, wow.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: 40 and a half. Yeah, I know Jones. He will graduate college or high school when I'm 58.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It'll keep us interesting. We'll know all the latest rappers, if you don't already in our fifty s.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: Oh, no, that's right. So we have four, we have twin girls who are ten, and then we have an eight year old boy, and then we have a six year old boy. And I figured we were probably close to the same age. My husband is. He just had a birthday. He's 42 or something like that. So we're close. We're in the same scope. But I'm telling you, when our youngest could wipe his own bottom, yes. The world changed for us.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: In my heart of hearts, whenever I'm so frustrated, I just go, if you can make it, like, two more years, it'll be a year and a half.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: When he's four, it'll just be like a different thing.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: It will be a different. Yeah. A totally different world. And now I took my oldest. He's going to this little pod, or my youngest, he's doing this little pod for his virtual school, because, help me with virtual first grade. I'm just like, it's beyond my pay grade at this point. But he's like, he can buckle himself, right? And I feel like that again. That's like another line, man, another level, right? When they can buckle themselves, too. So that's great. It comes out in the book. So the name of the book that we're talking about today, that will kind of be the centrality of our conversation, probably is called honest advent, awakening to the wonder of God with us then, here and now. So let's just start, if you can, and give us a generic recap of what advent is, because I didn't grow up celebrating advent, and neither did my husband. And so I know some church communities, some church cultures and traditions do and some don't. And so give us just a little recap of what that is.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Advent is a season. Advent in Latin just means coming. So it is a liturgical season. Just meaning it's giving a framework to an, like, void of going, hey, for these five.
Sorry, four Sundays leading up to Christmas, let's spend time thinking about the coming king, the coming messiah, just like it was announced to Mary, and then going through the pregnancy and all of that stuff. So it's a way to just kind of awaken your soul of going, think about hope coming in your midst. What is it like to long for that? And it's allowing those longings that we have for restoration or fulfillment to come to the surface and really deal with those prayerfully and spiritually.
Yeah, I grew up protestant, too. We just talked about Christmas and Easter, and then you find out, oh, there's like, advent up till Christmas, and then there's lent up till Easter, and then there's this whole thing called ordinary time, which just is amazing. So there's all of these traditions and timelines and church calendars that have been practiced by women and men throughout history. And one of the things I think that's great about participating in it is that it lets us know that we're not so individualistic, that we're actually part of this great cloud of witnesses or this great communion of saints. That's all doing this thing together.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I love that. Actually, I'm reading another book right now for the show, but I wanted to read it anyway. And the author talks about even reading of scripture, even just like that, we've turned it into this kind of individualistic thing, but then recognizing that this really is a community thing, and when we read it aloud and we participate together. And so when you're talking about that, especially now when some people are back in service in buildings, but some people are online, and it just helps to have something like that on the calendar to know that we're doing all of this as a larger church community and a larger church body. And so thank you for that, because I didn't want that to be, like, a hindrance to anybody as we got into this talking about the advent. But when you talk about that part of the coming, one of the things that I kind of wrote in all caps when I was making notes for our talk today was feel the weight. W-A-I-T right to feel the weight.
And of course, I think about, of course this has, like, a pregnant woman on the front. We're talking about Mary, we're talking about Jesus and the birth. And I know you've got three kids, and your wife has told her birthing stories, and she has heard some birthing stories in her day. I know that's true because, oh, my.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: Wife was a doula for a while, too. Yes, she's massaged babies out.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: But I feel like that's kind of the question, right? Is were they early? Were they late? When did they come? How far along were you when the baby was born?
When we're having these conversations and so feel the weight, I thought, okay, my twins came early, and it shocked me. There wasn't enough anticipation there because they were supposed to not be that early. But my son, my first son, who's my third baby, we had a lot of experience feeling the weight because he never wanted to be born. He just thought he was going to hang out. So I don't know. I just feel like, if you can talk about even that, how did you try to capture feeling the weight? And let me kind of back up a minute. But where did this even come from?
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah, because I'm a pro. I can tie those both in.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Let's do it.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Let's start where it came from.
It was four years ago, and it was right after the last election, which whoever side you voted for, I think we could all agree, felt really divisive and long and fatiguing.
And that year, also, we were right in the midst of the syrian civil war, and we were seeing these horribly devastating images of cities demolished and refugees and death and Zika Flint water crisis. There was multiple gun school shootings that year.
And then after the election, it's not even Thanksgiving yet, but you just go into stores, and it's just like the holiday decorations.
The Christmas season just dusts like a snowfall on everything in society. And I remember just, like, being at some store and going, none of this feels relevant at all. It feels so meaningless compared to the chaotic and troubling world I live in. And I love Christmas. I'm a Christmas fan. I am one of those lamos that saves an all Christmas music all day long channel on my radio. I put it on the loop, off the playlist. I put lights on the house. I keep my lights up till February.
I'm that weird neighbor.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: You're that guy.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: I'm that guy. I love a tree. All of the things.
I'm into the celebration, but I just found it so shallow. And I'm not even really poking against, because we took Christ out of Christmas and stuff. Even the nativity seems sanitized. And.
And I was like, sure. And that was shocking because I was like, isn't this supposed to be, like, the good news and great tidings of joy? And yet it feels, like, not powerful in the presence of all of this chaos.
It sparked in me this, like, well, where could I find this? And at the time, my wife was pregnant with our third. And it's so cliche. I feel like just saying it feels like cliche. It's like, well, churches will have a pregnant lady come up and be like, what's it like in there? What does it feel like? And I get all that, and I say this in the book. I'm not a woman, but I live with one, and I've witnessed three pregnancies and three births. And in that time I noticed, like, I'm very aware of the physical aches and pains that my wife is going through, the fluids talk about when she became a doula. I never realized I could hear the word mucus plug so many times in my life.
And the kind of, like, the plans, and you don't know how it's going to happen, and you make a plan, but you're like, when is it going to come? All of this?
And it was that kind of female biology and that real attention to the actual process of how incarnation happens, how something that's unseen becomes seen.
I guess it felt really honest, like it was like actually coming into the world is this scary, risky, hidden, mysterious process.
And you've been at your births, hopefully, maybe you're drugged. I don't know. But people who haven't been to births, also people who aren't parents. And I know that can be hard because some people want to be parents. But I was like, your theology changes when you become a parent.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Like, all the things you think about grace or forgiveness and sin and all that, when you look at relationships and children through the lens of love, it changes how you understand God and everything. And I have burst into tears at each one of the births I've been at.
I can describe medically and technically what's happening, but you can't describe what presence looks like, what presence feels like when it comes into the room. Like, when another person who wasn't there comes into the room. You're like, here it is. And it's like the manifestation of all of this longing and anticipation and plans and thinking and desires, and there it is. And it's a wonder. And so I was like, I'm less interested in the theological conclusions of what incarnation means. I was just like, what does it mean for a baby to come in the world? What does that mean for the mom who carries it? What does that mean for her body? And so I humbly started trying to draw and illustrate what I was seeing my wife dealing with and her boobs that are two different sizes, just like, real difficult things, not trying to objectify the female form because there's too much of that, but just go like I'm observing. I'm a witness to this. And I just started posting that stuff on Instagram and my own kind of musings, and I had tremendous feedback, mostly from women.
And what was really interesting to me, admittingly as a man, was that women were like, thank you for depicting something that's real.
And what hit me in that is like, yeah, for one, most of the imagery we have for Christmas has been created by.
And, and I understand, I talk about this in the book where I was like, nobody wants to see the ugly alien looking baby that comes out. They'd rather see like baby Jesus who looks like three months old, is cleaned off and is sitting upright, can hold his neck up.
But I think there is a bit more to that.
And I talk about this in the book, which is the female body has been pushed aside by male oriented hierarchy in religious institutions and it has been deemed a monthly biological period has been deemed unclean and you must go outside the camp.
A female has been diminished as like, we don't know if you have the ability to teach.
A female body has been like, hey, if I get in the elevator with you or ride in a car with you, I'm going to want to have sex with you. So I can't do that. It has put all of this kind of. It has made it scandalous or dirty or all of this. And it really was humbling to go, how do I want to say this? Not that I was like, I'm not going to change all that. No, but I was like, I can be a husband, a male, a lover, a supporter, and go, I think that has actually been very wrong. And I would like to pay honor to the fact that in this story God's sacred plans came through female biology. And by diminishing that, we have missed out on the sacredness of that.
And then it's not just all about nipples and Labia, you know what I'm saying? It's like uteruses and stuff. It's also like, who are the other people who partook in this? Who are the shepherds? Who are the Magi?
Who's Joseph? Like, we never talk about know. And what was it like for Jesus to have a dad? And it's kind of these musings on all of these things happening.
And then I did that over a few years and gained enough that I went to a publisher and I said, look, here's a book. And they said yes. So that was kind of my honest intentionality was like to try to bring wonder back into something I loved that I felt like mass consumerism and marketing had diminished and kind of watered down and took a lot of joy out of. And that's what I wanted to find. So that's where it came from. I've been talking a while, so I kind of maybe forgot the second question part of that question.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: To die. No, that's.
[00:17:23] Speaker B: If you want to respond to anything I said.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: No, I want to respond to everything you said. Because I'm just like, it was so good.
I would say, praise God. I'm glad the publisher said yes, because it's so good.
I told you before we came on that I'm like, I already was trying to figure out how in the world can I get my hands on a bulk order of these? Because I've started making a list of friends that I want to give this to because it was so powerful.
Part of the reason it was so powerful for me was as a woman, I'm making a list of girlfriends. Honestly, those are just who is coming to mind in the introduction when you start talking about the female biology.
I cried. I mean, like, I teared up at this, and I hollered at my husband, and I said, you've got to hear this because of all of the things that you said.
And as a woman who, I think culturally, my church culture has looked very masculine, it was kind of like, I know this sounds like a weird statement, maybe, but I would say as a woman reading this book, and particularly as a mom, and particularly as someone who has been pregnant, I actually felt very seen in the pages of this book.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Wow. That's a great compliment. Thank you. I'm humbled by that.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: But thank you for writing it, because I did. I just thought, wow.
I just felt very seen through it.
I want to comment on a couple of the things that you said.
First of all, this incarnation, this idea of something else who is unseen becoming seen, and this idea of being a parent and how that changes us, it changes our faith. And so I wrestled with personally and in.
I think there are particular church traditions who. I think the intention is good, but who seek to make the narrative so seamless because we know from Genesis one that Jesus was.
And so I feel like there are some traditions who, with good intention, seek to make the narrative so seamless, that Jesus was always there, that when he comes on the scene, it feels anticlimactic.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: And I understand where that comes from, because we want to see the unity of the Trinity. We want to see the plan that he was the lamb who was slain from the beginning, the foundation of the world. But I remember a particular day. I was walking my daughters like this double stroller. Right. I have all but lost my mind because I had twins, and I didn't know what to do with them.
And I'm walking them, and I think at this point, my husband was with me, but I had been mulling it over all day. We disclosed our enneagrams earlier, and I'm a six, and I'm an internal processor, right? So I'd been mulling over this all day, and I just told my husband. I just looked and I said, I've been asking this question for a long time, but now that I'm a parent, I feel like I can ask it in a different way, which is, if it was all seamless, then why did it even matter that he came?
And when I had the girls, I'm like, no, I get it. I get the seamlessness, but there is no comparison to a promise of a baby and a baby. Yeah, there is just no comparison. And I feel like part of what you do in this book is you take us through that middle part between the promise and the.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: You come. What you're describing is very similar to the roots that I grew up in, at least the narrative of Jesus.
There are other theological views of incarnation, which is like when in Philippians two, when you're saying he humbled himself, took a form of a servant, that one of the things about Jesus's incarnation is that he didn't know. He had no memory. So if you look at Jesus's story, the garden of Gethsemane, his freaking out is because he doesn't know if he's going to resurrect.
He trusts God because that's what he's heard to do.
So if you start to see the story from that, like, he didn't know, and that was part of taking the mantle off and becoming us. That's part of his humanity. It's a much different story. And then you're like, oh, so he was really human? Like we are, because we don't know. And that will take your dead, dying faith and go, excuse me. So, I'm sorry, what did you say?
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's what I'm experiencing right now. When you just did that. I'm sorry, what?
[00:22:59] Speaker B: He didn't know.
Because then you're like, wait. God really did take on vulnerabilities, and then that's why the angels show up and sing, because they're like, do you understand what's happening right now?
[00:23:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that'll cook your noodle. For a long time, that theological viewpoint has single handedly restored everything that I thought I had to throw away because it didn't make sense anymore.
It just helped me get it, like, oh, yeah, so then why his name means so much that I'm with you, God with us, is that in our own, the vulnerability of unknowing, of not knowing, of not knowing how it's going to turn out. We don't have an unempathetic high priest, right? We have one who's like, I know what it's like to not know how it's going to turn out.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Okay? We're like, thanks, because I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.
So there's that.
Yeah. And I'm like, and I have another meeting in a couple of hours. Like, how am I going to do this? Okay, focus, Alexis, focus.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Sorry. So then when you start thinking about this whole incarnation story, you're just like, it's God. Participating in God is incarnating through human vulnerability and inviting human vulnerability to be like.
It is the way that God is putting on and coming in and being in the world. And so where we can find God now, where we find Jesus in our midst now, is through our own human vulnerability. It is in all of our doubts and our fears and those things that we are able, those don't become the walls separating us from God. They are the doorways to connect to God.
[00:24:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: It's not about becoming perfect, it's about perfecting. Well, that's maybe a different kind of quote.
We're perfecting.
Let me change. I was going to go a different. It's not become being perfect. What we're here to do is perfect our love together. That's what we're doing. But we're doing that through all of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities and stuff. Anyways, yeah, we could keep going, but I think you have another question.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: No, it's so good.
I want to kind of keep going in that vein because you said, I think it's even in the intro, that part of what you were talking about, and that you've got the snow dusting and the decorations, and we do this every year. And the quote I wrote down was familiarity kills wonder. But I feel like what you do in this book, because, yes, there is an aspect in which I 100% agree with you, that the familiarity of it kills the wonder. We know what's going to happen every year. It's the same. We get this, we know the story, we know the carols, we know where we can go see the best nativity scene. We know who's got the, we know all of it.
But this book, for me, the familiarity, you took it to a different place and it restored my wonder. So what I mean by that is when spoiler alert, there's an illustration in the book with someone wiping a baby booty.
And that is familiar to me. I have four kids. I have wiped a lot of butts in my mothering days. That is familiar to me. But that restores my wonder in the incarnation. Because even though I don't want to think about it, because I think sometimes we've been maybe trained to think that it's not honorable, but the truth.
And you define that in kind of the same way I do it with my kids. Like, what really happened? Seeing what really happened. Right. Like, the truth is somebody had to wipe Jesus's booty.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Change all his dirty nappies.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah, change all of his dirty.
There's. There's not even like a special little trash can for them to put it in. They've got to figure this out. But this familiarity of the humanity that I feel like you brought in this book helped restore some of the wonder of the incarnation for me and not kill it like the decorations do, but it restored it because that is, that's what we're familiar with. We know what this kind of family thing looks. Right?
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And that particular meditation is for mighty God from the Isaiah prophecy. And I think I started by saying, if you live long enough, the end of your life will begin as the beginning of your life with somebody else wiping your butt. And it's like, from vulnerabilities, from vulnerabilities, from vulnerability to vulnerability, our life begins and ends. And I walk through different seasons of your life, what those particular vulnerabilities look like.
Because when people say mighty God, because of our love of power and violence, we think mighty God means I have the biggest iron man suit and can take everybody out.
And besides that one time that Jesus flips over tables which a lot of people use to support violence, you're like, he doesn't do anything. Mighty that I, what I submit is Jesus is mighty because he's willing to go through it and he's willing to go through human vulnerability and not shirk away from it.
And that's what we're invited to.
So Jesus is mighty because he didn't ever step out of what he was asked to do. And granted, I think in that one, I'm like, he had some extracurricular activities that we maybe don't have, but still it was beset with his own weaknesses, which is, I mean, it's hard.
This is the journey of any faith person, is, it is our tendency to. We might not think. We're like, you shouldn't make any gods other than God. But we do. That's just what we, even our idea of God is an image of God. It doesn't encapsulate the holy mystery that we've given a name, God, to try to describe it. So always we have to keep confronting these cliches or these conclusions that we come to. Not that we're not landing on any kind of gathering of character or information, but we always have to, when we make. We've finalized an image, like when we've become bored with the image. The problem isn't God itself. The problem is the image we constructed. And to think about, to some people, maybe Jesus having weakness is scandalous to them. But you're like, so he never slept, he never got tired. We know that's not true. He speaks of being thirsty and hungry and sitting down for a rest, needing to get away, a break from the crowds, heartbroken, grieving, cry. I tell people all the time, I'm like, look, I'm a Christian because of the resurrection, but I'm mostly a Christian because of the shortest verse in the Bible, which is Jesus wept. Because if I've cried at friends funerals and if there's a story about God participating in humanity and that God never cried at one of his friends funerals, I wouldn't believe it. Because I would be like, you were insulated from the whole, like, that's one of the reasons I think it's a real true story. Because I was like, because get ready. You will find yourself at your friend's funeral weeping. And that's part of this life. And I find that the Jesus story is actually dynamic enough to have all those aspects of it.
It's just what we butt up against, or what becomes familiar is maybe the conclusions we come to about what this story is. And if we go deeper and look at it longer, we'll maybe find it. Admittingly, sometimes I wish the Bible was written like, I wish Anne Lamont could take a chapter or it's not written like a play. It's an ancient script. It has a purpose. These books have a specific way, a specific audience they're trying to get to and study, and hermeneutics and all that stuff can help exhume some of that. But I really viewed it as. I wasn't trying to be like, here's an in depth word of what this greek word means. Although I do mention a couple of greek words, but I was more of like, how is this revealing humanity in here?
Because why I'm still interested in the Bible is.
And this is one of my teaching muses, is, I say the only reason we're telling the story, because it's not a story that just happened back then, it's a story that's happening right now. If it was just a story back then and it doesn't apply to now, we would stop telling it.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: But. Because, sure, God asked one guy to take his son up on a mountain and sacrifice him and provided an alternative. And that's very specific. But we all have times in our lives where the thing we love the most is maybe the thing that needs to, that we have to offer up and that's incredibly hard to do and so on and so forth.
You know what I'm talking about?
[00:32:56] Speaker A: No, but along those lines, though, I dog eared a lot in this book. I penciled in a lot in this book and starred.
And really, truthfully, I think you said this when we weren't recording earlier that one of your friends, one of the endorsers, said, this isn't a Christmas book. And, and I agree.
I try. And thankfully, so far I've been able to do it. But I actually love reading. And so I love reading the books of the authors that I'm going to get to interview in full because I enjoy it and it helps me hopefully have a better conversation. But with your book, I used it as a devotional. And today I found myself kind of a little bit sad that it was over. I was like, I'm done. I don't have anything. That's a great conference.
I did my normal scripture readings today, but then I was like, oh, where's my, oh, it's done, but I can start it again. It's great. But one of the quotes that I have that I thought was so powerful, that goes along with what you're saying is you say there was a moment when the presence of God was felt as the unease of morning sickness.
Don't be surprised if your current unease is that same exact avenue of presence.
I just thought that was so powerful because, again, it's like familiar. Right.
And I want you to talk about it. But you talk about the uneasy and queasy feeling of having to go through with the physical details of the calling.
Right.
And you also say, and I want you to talk about it, not me, but how an uneasiness isn't always a sign that we're doing it wrong, that we're doing something wrong. Right. Because we look through this Luke story and we see the announcement and we see, like, she's kind of scared, but then she gets over it and then she goes to visit Elizabeth, and then she comes back, and then she has a baby. But that's a 22 Minutes sitcom wrap up of how that happened. And even in the sitcom, the chick is usually pregnant for the whole season, right? Yeah, but that's a pretty quick thing. But I have a dear friend of mine is pregnant right now, and we were talking about how the morning sickness is just such a stupid term because for many women who have it, it's all day, and then you can hope that it goes away at the end of the first trimester. But for a lot of women, it doesn't. My sister was gigantic, pregnant with my nephew and puking every day.
But he's a healthy six foot six boy. Now, this wasn't a sign that she was doing something wrong. No, it was just part of the growth process.
Oh, my goodness. Talk to us about that.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
My wife, she had always the worst third trimester heartburn. Just. I remember her just being sitting up in bed at, like, 02:00 a.m. Just like, I can't lay down. Or might it hurt so bad? Yeah.
And if we went to the doctor, the doctor would be like, you're doing it right.
It's part of the process of growing something new. And in that meditation, I allude to all kinds of uncomfortable. The sign of growing is unease.
We had just moved when I was writing this book, and not only because of COVID did my calendar go away.
We moved, and we were isolated in Austin. We couldn't see our friends. The cities closed down, all of this stuff. And I was like, we knew it was the right move, but it was very uncomfortable to be where we're at. It's very uncomfortable to pack up your stuff and move to another place. It's very uncomfortable to train for a marathon. It's very uncomfortable to try to start dating again. It's very uneasy to try to learn a new skill and do it. And I say, I've been building a speaking career over the last few years, and there have been many speeches that I've given where I've thrown up a little bit in my mouth before I gave a speech. Or, like, that acid comes up, and you're just like, oh, nerves, right? It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It means you're on the right track. And I think in that Meditation, I end with, like, if you asked a pregnant woman who had just thrown up in the toilet if it was, why are you doing this? And she's like, it's for love.
I'm doing it for love. And I think that's the same answer we get from God in our unease is like, why are you doing this to me? Which our question is to God, like, have you left me? Are you ignoring me? And God is like, I'm growing you. And growing involves discomfort, and I'm doing it because I love you. And so the place that you're finding unease is maybe where the divine is working in your life. And maybe that looks like allowing yourself to start being kind to yourself or thinking that you could be beloved, allowing yourself to forgive and get rid of that hate that you've been carrying, even though it's justified because that person's a real jerk and hurt you really awfully.
Maybe it's the unease of starting again midway through your life and going.
A lot of my dreams didn't come true, and this is not where I wanted to end up. But I'm not done yet, and it's going to be humbling, but I can start over. I can try something new.
And those will be uneasy feelings for sure, but it might mean that you're on the right track. Yeah.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: So I want to kind of start to end where you end, because we talk about the unease and we've talked about vulnerability, and in the book, you talk about risk, which is what makes us feel vulnerable and uneasy. And all of that can lead to fear. Right. Like we just talked about, Mary was freaked out when Gabriel came and met her. And we can cut this if you're not okay with it, if you're published, not okay with it, but end by saying, be not afraid.
What if we said this instead of merry Christmas?
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah. It could be a legit substitute.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Tell us why, though. Because that just made me smile.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: I mean, throughout the holy scriptures and specifically in this story, the announcement or the coming of the divine and human connection, a lot of that announcement or coming to starts with don't be afraid.
It starts with because what are we thinking about when we think that? Is it just like, oh, flash of light, and I'm scared?
Is it startled? Is that don't be afraid? Or is it deeper than that? Is it the fear of, like, oh, God, everything's going to be different now? Or maybe it's like, oh, this is actually true.
There really is a God.
We'd have to see the thing behind the thing behind the thing. The fear is building off narratives and assumptions about how things are supposed to work. Who am I supposed to be in the story? And all of that's being torn down. And so I think the invitation there is to go, what are our deepest fears? And God's announcement to us is going to start with those fears. It's going to start with, like, do you even see me?
Are you even involved in our lives? God?
Yeah. And so I think that it's interesting, it may very well be that I'm misinterpreting. And maybe it's just like every angel comes with a light show and it startles people and they go say, just chill out. Just wait till the sparkles die down and then I'll tell you something. But I think that revelation and communication with God, actually, it's always going to confront these deep things in our heart. And I think when we say merry Christmas, we're saying, like, all of your assumptions about how you think this is supposed to go down can be toppled over like something new is coming. And that's possibly with you. And in order for us to enter into it, we need to address our fears. And so I think God's coming. His message, what I take a take on is like, don't be afraid. Let's start with your fears. Let's start there before that and we'll get to good news and tidings of great joy, right?
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Because when he, I just kept thinking the little button, right, that somebody's mother in law or grandma or aunt has that button on their jean jacket that says, put the Christ back in Christmas or it's on their bumper sticker, but saying, be not afraid.
Because I agree with you. I think this is not just about a light show.
My kids will try to scare me. I come out of the bathroom, did I get you? I'm like, listen, I'm a mother of four. There's nothing you can do to make me afraid, okay? You're not going to scare me. But I will admit to them sometimes of being startled. Yeah, right. But I agree with you that it's more than a startling that there is this deep fear. But when I think when you're talking about that, like putting the Christ back in Christmas is the truth, that perfect love casts out all fear. And so when he is coming to us and saying there's going to be transformation, there's going to be revelation, there's going to be something new, it is for the sake of love.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:37] Speaker A: Just like the morning sickness, right? It's for the sake of love. And so don't be afraid of that.
Good tidings, joy, all of that that you just said.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: This is how we're going to become best friends. Come on. I know, this isn't exactly what you're talking about with the fear, but the first one is about revelation and talking about how I think we all kind of wish we had divine revelation, but it's like, there's a cost with that. And do you really want, like, for example, would you want an interaction with an angel, or would you want to be told something that then, now, every time you go to target, you hate it? Maybe you already hate target. You know, what if, what if a perspective in you changed so much that the flavor of all that consumerism was trying to give you just went out and it became tasteless?
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Right?
[00:44:35] Speaker B: Do you love target so much that you're like, I don't want to lose liking target. Or would you be like, I'm okay losing target because there's something better? You know what I'm saying? That sounds kind of weird. It's not like I love target, but target works really hard. When you walk in their store, you're.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: Like, oh, come on.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of fun. I'm going to buy something and feel good. What if all of that changed for you because of something that God gave you, right? Would you be happy about that? Or would you be kind of pissed? Like, God ruined target for me, but it happened. But Chip and Joanna are there, and they're God's angels on earth. No, you know what saying, like, yeah, this is what we're talking about, is like, God coming to Mary just effed up her life in a way that maybe later on she's like, it was worth it. But there was a lot of pain and things along the way.
And I think to really embrace incarnation, I'll just tell you this isn't my story, but this is where a lot of this influence comes. There's this great author. I think he's still alive, Frederick Beechner, writer, pastor, mostly an author. But he has this essay called a message in the stars, and it's in this book.
You'll just find it secrets in the dark. It's about sermons based on depression and dark times of life. But he goes, why doesn't God give evidence of his existence in a world that's desperate for it? Why doesn't he? And he goes, well, what if God did? What if God did give physical evidence of his existence? Say one night you looked up in the sky and the stars had adjusted and it spelled, it's me, God. I'm here.
And astronomers and scientists looked at it, and they're like, literally pulsars. Move to spell this out from our perspective and to keep it in line as we're know all the.
To the. He's like, what would happen to the world if there was actual evidence? And he muses, like, churches would meet in football stadiums and some people would be freaked out. Some people would be like, I'm right. Some people would feel vindicated. All of this stuff. And he's like, what if it changed every night? Like it was in different languages, it was in French, it was in Japanese, all this stuff. And he goes, years past, five years later, he was like, if I was to make a play about it, here's how I'd see it go down. A dad and his son are out looking at the night sky. His son's like, what's that, dad? And his dad go, and it's in French that night. And it says, semois le Bonjour. And his dad's like, well, that's evidence that God exists. And he's like a kid in his innocence would say what we all felt, which is, so what if God exists? What does that mean for us anyways?
And Frederick Beechner goes, I think what we think our real question is, is does God exist or not? He's like, I don't think that's our real question. I actually think our real question is, does God exist in all of this?
Like this, like my life, this life, your life, our life, this human happening that's going, is God in this? Not just out there like I'm here, but like, in it. And the name God with us alludes that he's intentionally involved. And so what we have to do is to get into the messiness of all this and go, are don't. I haven't sold this to many people, so you're lucky.
I live in Austin and I'm at home a lot with three kids and stuff, but I'm like, do you have plans for climate change?
Do you have something to offer us? We could use some help.
How do we end endless war?
Are you in the midst of this?
You know what I'm saying? All the stuff that's coming up in my deepest heart, I'm like, I guess you exist, but are you in this?
And I think that's where that's my fears. That's my real fears. Sure, I'm afraid of sharks when I'm in the water, yes. But I think my deepest, deepest fear is like, are you really in any of this? Are you?
And my meditation on incarnation is to have hope that yes, in a way that I miss a lot. That yes, at least that's my hope, and that's what I'm going for.
Does that make sense when we talk about fears? Like, what's the fear? Beyond the fear. Beyond the fear. I'm afraid of falling rocks when I'm hiking. But more of my fear is like, is my existence meaningless? That's my deeper fear. And I think that's the fear that be not afraid confronts. It might be like, hey, not to startle you, but I think it's also like, I see you. Which is a deeply meaningful and powerful statement.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm all over it. No, it's really there because this is about our becoming, and it's about our humanity, and it's about our goop, and it's about all of this. And when you were talking another. Yeah, so this is how we become best friends. Because when you were talking about a book, I was thinking about another book, and it's possible you've read this one. I had not read the one that you were talking about, but Brennan Manning has just been, like, all over my week this week. He just popped out of nowhere in some of these places in my mind. But there was a book.
It was republished under another name.
I read it, an old thrift books copy called the lion and the Lamb. But I think it's now called something like the relentless gentleness of Jesus or something like that. But there is an analogy that he uses, and I think he stole it. I think he cites someone else, but he talks about, how do we view God? And when you were talking about, does he exist? Okay, we see him in the stars, but what does that mean for me? And he kind of even talks about, what have we done as a community? What have we done as a church?
We see God. If this was wagon train times, if this was Oregon trailer from the northwest, but if this was, I died of dysentery, but if this was wagon train times, we see God as being the judge in the high tower in the town, kind of looking out on all of the townspeople, making sure that everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing. But then he describes kind of what I feel like is more accurate, and certainly it's more telling in my life. I needed to hear it at the time was he describes the Trinity as being members of the wagon train. Right? Like God the father is. He's kind of out front, like he's leading us, and he's showing us where to go. And Jesus is the trail hand. Like he's helping change the wheels, and he's in the dirt with us. And when things stop, he's kind of the trail hand, and the Holy Spirit is, he says, he's a wild man, is what he says.
And he goes out and he hunts. He's a buffalo hunter. Right. And he comes and he cooks the meat. And anyway, I'm probably getting some of those wrong. It's been a minute since I've read it, but it's just this. Yeah. It's not just. Does God exist?
Like you said? Sure.
Yeah.
[00:52:41] Speaker B: But he's involved, like Freddie B. Says, in that he goes, what if that feeling that you have of lacking God is the presence of God in your life?
Like that feeling you have of disconnection is actually an acknowledgement of connection because you're aware. You're aware of that relationship.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: And he goes through all these simple things, which was really like a precursor or like a model for me to go.
What are all the simple, overlooked places that actually, because there's a. Talking about not coming out of any other protestant tradition, there's a thing called the examine, which is a catholic tradition. At the end of the day, you examine and you go, where did I see God today?
Maybe every now and then it might be some big, explosive firework kind of thing. But oftentimes it's just in really simple moments of observation or attention or kindness of an unexpected kindness of a stranger wishing for something in it coming.
It was almost like, oh, is somebody watching out for me? What's going on? How did they know I needed that? And that is often where you find God involved or kind of see this divine wovenness into your life. Yeah.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: I'm like, I don't know if we have time to go there. One of the things I wrote down is you have this Meditation, because when you're saying that, it's like those simple things. I remember a particular moment in college.
I was walking from my crappy apartment across campus, and it was cold outside. In Oklahoma, it's always windy. And I saw.
I call them hopping birds, but I don't know what kind of bird it is, but it doesn't walk. It hops. Right. And it was just this little hopping bird that was on the Pavement in front of me. And I had this thought that I thought was me. But now I wonder if it was actually the Holy Spirit. But the thought was, God put that Hoppingbird there for like. Because I love Hoppingbirds. I just think that there's just something about them that I think they're so amazing. And I feel like if I were practicing the examine, I would say that's how God showed up today. That's where I saw him, was in this Little HoppingBird. But I do think that there are in some traditions and in some cultures, christian cultures, where we feel like to even acknowledge something like that is arrogant.
Right? So it's too much about me at that moment. But I think now, kind of in my old age, I'm feeling like, is that arrogant? Or is that an acknowledgment of our relationship, of this divine relationship that we have? And you have this meditation where you say, maybe Jesus needs.
That's. That's scandalous. You say, it is. It's scandalous to say.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: And then I end with, why is.
Well, because I preface to be fully human. Because people are like, jesus was fully God and fully human. It's like, to be fully human is to need people.
[00:56:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:07] Speaker B: No human who's ever been healthy or whole has lived a life without needing people.
And I go through kind of like a life of needing and go, didn't Jesus need all this? If we need him, doesn't he need us? And why is that so scandalous to say?
Because I start with being like, we'd like to think that Jesus was just this solo act. Like not needing anybody.
Not just like, I'm going to overturn religion and start another one, I guess. I don't. Oh, and I don't need anybody. I'm just by myself.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: We always say that all I need is this lamp. Right? Steve Martin.
[00:56:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And you're like, well, that doesn't sound like a healthy person at know, healthy people are intermeshed with the. I confront the scandal in me. I'm like, why is that there? Who told me that that would be so scandalous?
[00:57:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: I'm not like, proposing codependency in an unhealthy way. I'm just saying sociologists and psychologists would be like, no, healthy human relationships involve loving commitment to one another.
[00:57:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:19] Speaker B: Through friendship, through marital commitments, through all kinds of relational things.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: Well, I'm going to tell you. No, go ahead. Yeah, no, he needs us.
[00:57:29] Speaker B: He needs us and we need him.
And there is this kind of cosmic interwovenness that I think as you keep going, you start to see it. I think you're alluding, at least when I hear you tell your story from my own experiences, I'm like, yeah, it's probably both. And the truth is, like, birds are just around and you notice one.
[00:57:52] Speaker A: Right?
[00:57:52] Speaker B: Also, something inside of you, an internal pattern in you was reflected in an external pattern outside. And at that moment, those two things came together. That's the chapter on the magi where I was like, the amazing thing about the story of the magi is not that they went and found Jesus. It's that they looked in the sky and they saw a star, and they said, the God I've been wanting to know has given me a sign to go find him. Let's go find him.
It started inside. They were like, I have this desire. And then it got represented on the outside. And then the two brought them into that experience. I have this. You listening at home? Can't see this, but I have this big owl tattoo on my arm because I had this experience. Bit of a story, but the way that I develop talks is I go on long walks. So I was on this three hour walk in Portland. It was getting dark. It was kind of drizzling out, and I was praying for wisdom. I was trying to figure something out. And I was in this park, Laurelhurst park, and I was praying to be visited by wisdom. And in that moment, it came to me. The thing I was trying to figure out is like, oh, that's it. That's it. That's what I've been trying to figure out. And then moments later, this giant bird buzzed me, like, huge wings. I was like, whoa, what the heck? And then it went up in the tree in the dark, and I took out my phone, turned on the flashlight, and there was a giant owl there just looking at me. And I stood there for legit ten minutes just watching it, and looked at me like a girl ran by with her dog, and she stopped, and she's like, is that an owl? And I was like, yeah, it just buzzed me. She's like, whoa. She kept running.
And then I ended up leaving, kept walking. And then later on, I was like, what just happened?
I prayed for wisdom. I got the thing internally, and then I was visited by the animal that represents wisdom, at least in our culture.
But then I found out later that owls tend to buzz people because they're highly territorial. So what's true?
[00:59:51] Speaker A: Maybe both, right?
[00:59:53] Speaker B: And that's what mystery is. Mystery is the in between of two paradoxical truths. It's living in the paradox of, like, owls are territorial and they're guard. So maybe this owl had a nest somewhere and is guarding it. But isn't it interesting that my interaction with this territorial owl happened at the same time this prayerful journey was happening? And I live in the mystery. And I don't know if you're this way, but I'm like, I don't care what was really happening isn't important. Except it did happen, and it changed my life.
[01:00:27] Speaker A: Right.
[01:00:28] Speaker B: And that's the fruit of something happened.
I think that's what at least those of us of faith. There are many things on the one side of the paradox. We're like, there's probably an explanation. I'm probably making this up.
But then there's this, like, birth is just biology coming out of biology, and then there's this other side of it, and it's like, but why did we all cry when that happened?
And in the middle of it is the mystery of our lives. And that's, I think, where we're bumping into the divine is in that middle.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: That's perfect.
I think that's a great way to wrap us up. So, Scott, this has been incredible. The book, which I will link in the notes again is honest advent, awakening to the wonder of God with us, then here and now. It says on the COVID 25 readings for advent and Christmas. And I am going to agree with your friend that this is 25 readings for whenever the heck you want to read this, because surely it is good seasonally, but this is just good for everyday life. So let us know where we can find the book and where we can follow along with you, because I'm kind of thinking before the next book comes out, I'll want to be one of those Instagram followers who sees the drawings before it becomes a book.
[01:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm most active on Instagram. I'm Scott the painter there. Honestadvent has its own website, honestadvent.com. But you can find the book in any place major books are sold.
And then my website, scottaricksonart.com. But yeah, the next book is my one man show. Say yes, that it's being turned into a book. So I'm in the midst of that. So that's coming out next year as well.
[01:02:26] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[01:02:29] Speaker B: I'm talking about vulnerability. Oh, man. I've been doing some pep talks the last couple of days.
Creating something is very humbling. And I just had to go, okay, big breath. I'm in my 40s. Let's learn.
It's just a humbling process of learning, but then realizing if I'm here, that means why would I be here if God hasn't brought me here? So I'm believing that everything I need is on this journey. So let's just go on the journey.
[01:03:04] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for doing it. I actually had in my notes that quote of yours all creating is an expression of vulnerability. And so I appreciate you doing that. And then I think, I don't remember where it is, but I feel like I remember also jotting this down, that we connect with one another in the places where we have a limp.
And so by you being vulnerable enough to create this and share this, it connects with us even if we don't get to do it face to face. But you connect with us, and then we can then connect with others and connect with God. And it's just this really beautiful story that's happening in the midst of this. So thank you so much for sharing it with us.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: You're welcome.
It means a lot that you actually read it and loved it. And I know I'm on the right path.
[01:03:53] Speaker A: I did. Thank you so much, Scott. The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Gucetti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at. That makes totalcent.com.
