Episode 324 - Kelley Nikondeha

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That Makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay, I'm super stoked to have Kelly Nikondeja back on the podcast. Kelly, I have so many things I want to lead with, but I'm going to say this one first. I think, please correct me if I'm wrong. I think this is only the second time that we've recorded together. Is that true? [00:01:02] Speaker B: That is correct. This is our second time. [00:01:04] Speaker A: This is true. But I have to tell you, it feels in the best possible way like it is so much more because our other conversation, our first conversation on Advent in Palestine that is becoming a seasonal release for the podcast, I have released that multiple times over during the Advent season for so many reasons. There's a handful of authors that I interviewed for Advent related books. Yours was one of them. Obviously. We talked. I think, again, correct me because I didn't look this up. It was so silly. I should have. We talked after my first trip to Palestine, but before the October 7th attacks. Is that correct? [00:01:50] Speaker B: That is correct. And the book was right. The. The entire thing was written in the shadow of the pandemic, but before 107. So just last month, Broadleaf re released the book. They released it into paperback. And there's an additional afterward where I interviewed some of the people in the book that you would recognize three different Palestinian friends to get their commentary on what it's like being in Palestine in the wake of 10 7. So that. And then there's a question and answer guide added to the paperback version so that, you know, that is new in that people who have wondered how does this book stand up in the light of what has happened? And like, well, I'll let my friends speak to that. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. Thanks for sharing that, Kelly. I didn't realize, I think I, I knew it was being released again, but I didn't realize it had the additional content. So thank you so much for that. Again, I'm just gonna say this was. That's an excellent book. This is, this conversation we're having right now is going to be released just before Advent. I think if I, if I have it right on my calendar. And so, yeah, so anyway, so it's just a, another great reminder if you're looking for an Advent book, Advent devotional, something to even give some context for things that are happening in the news, Advent Palestine is a great choice for that. So thank you so much for that. Kelly. We're here today to talk about your newest book, Jubilee the Purpose, practices and possibilities for a better Future. And here's what I want to lead with on this one. So first of all, thank you, thanks for coming, thanks for the book, all this stuff. Here's what I want to say personally, and I did not tell you this prerecord. I don't think I was going to. Then I got distracted. I was eager to jump on this book despite my own skepticism of the topic. [00:03:55] Speaker B: And here's thank you for being honest and thank you for jumping in, even with your reservations. [00:04:03] Speaker A: I mean. Well, here's the thing, I think, and we might get to it some, I will say I can speak for myself, but I will say I think, I think that there are some of us, and I'm among them who may be a little bit cynical when it comes to like present day or contemporary practices when we're using the verbiage of jubilee. So I'll give an example. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Sure. [00:04:30] Speaker A: I distinctly remember I was having my car worked on or something, sitting in the, in the waiting room and I saw on the news some news show that I wouldn't normally watch, but it was on. And this was back when Biden was president and loan, student loan forgiveness was kind of the big thing. And there were headlines and among them, there were a lot of people from the Christian community using this like, Jubilee language to talk about student loan forgiveness. And it's not that I disagreed entirely with what was being said, but and of course this happens in like really quick newscasts. Right. So I'm not, I'm not, you know, blaming anyone from the Christian community or something. But I'm just saying, like, a lot of times these things kind of get flattened or they get these ideas, get more, more discussion, more nuance, more, you know, all these things. And, and it just, I just kind of remember that, like, I just kind of remember, like feeling a little bit dissatisfied with the conversations that I was hearing at the time. Now, again, not calling out any specific Christian leader or anything like that, but how is being presented mostly in the public conversation? [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker A: And I say that to say when I dove into this book, I felt so again, like I saw who wrote it and I was like, okay, bring it on. Like, let's, like let's do this because I knew from chatting with you before, in our experience together, that you are very adept at drawing out the nuance and drawing attention to the nuance in conversation. You understand the complexities that happen in real life because you're not just a theologian, but you're also a practitioner, Mary married to a practitioner, which we'll get to in. In the course of this conversation. And so I was so grateful to read about your own wrestling with this topic in this book of like, okay, like, you know, it's not as simple as. As we might want to. To. To say it is kind of the old. Well, the Bible says it and that's it, so let's just do it. It's like, wow, there's like, there's a lot of complexities to living out ideas like Jubilee. So anyway, that was a super long, ridiculous intro to just say how grateful I am for your attention to this, for you bringing out nuance for you wrestling, you know, out loud and inviting. I felt invited to wrestle myself in my own context. So anyway, thanks. Thanks so much, Kelly, for being on and for. And for putting this out here for us. [00:07:07] Speaker B: Well, it's my pleasure. And it's really has. That book really does represent more than 15 years of grappling with. With Jubilee. And I think what I hope people will feel when they come to the book is, you know, there are moments where you do have that utopian, like, this is what we're supposed to do. And you know, and I had that at the beginning. Like, if the text says we have to forgive debt, then by go, Dolly, we have to forgive. Right? And. And then you kind of grow into, oh, wait a minute, different time period, different economies. You know, you have to wrestle with. With those elements. So that was a big thing for me is having to learn, oh, just because, you know, it says this in the text, you know, in an ancient economy, doesn't mean it's like a cardboard, you know, stiff wooden1. For one correlation, there has to be, you know, the calculation of new different economies and the way these economies work. But. But what is underneath? Is there something underneath those utopian notes that still is worth our deeper investigation and intention? Is there still some Jubilee imperatives for us to pay attention to? And I think we have spent our career, Claude and I work in Burundi, which is a small country in East Africa, typically on the bottom of the UN's list in terms of the most underdeveloped countries. And so, you know, what is there still about that conversation? Because Jubilee in the Bible is an Economic policy conversation. Is there ancient wisdom there that still can inform how we approach modern day economies and poverty and joblessness? That has been the lion's share of our work in Burundi. So I hope people will see there are the highs and the lows and the moments of disillusionment and that is all part of the work. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Gosh, Kelly, there's so much to cover in this book. There's no way we're going to get to everything in this conversation. And so I'm trying to, I myself am kind of grappling with where do we start? But I think maybe a good place to kind of help set the stage is to bring up some of the history that you cite. So I'm a theologian as well, I am not a historian, but I am a student of the humanities. And so this is where your, your citation of the history was really helpful for me. I'm going to name something and then you tell me if you correct me, if I need to be corrected. So I think that there are lots of things in the Torah that I would say in my experience in evangelical and evangelical adjacent spaces in the US And I don't think this is entirely wrong, but there are lots of places, especially in the Torah, where I have heard teachings that sound something like this. Yahweh was doing this because he wanted to separate his people. His people were different. Right? Okay. I think there are definitely places in the Torah where this is true. I think Jubilee has been taught that way of like, this is one of those places where the Israelites were different. They were going to be set apart. They were going to be doing things in a wildly different imaginative way than any of the other people groups around them. And that is what makes this so special. And, and I will say Israelites were special. Yahweh is a special God. I'm not disputing any of that. [00:10:55] Speaker B: However. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Indebtedness is a human problem and an ancient problem. And so when you bring up and say this was not just the Israelites, the people groups around them, the rulers around them, the citizens around them were also. So it's not, I mean, they were also dealing with what do we do when people find themselves indebted to their neighbors, to the government, to the ruler or, you know, to whomever, how do we deal with this? Because this is a human problem that is also not just like 2000s in the US right? This goes back historically to ancient times. And so I think two, this, this leads into what you're saying, like Jubilee, this is an economic, this is these are principles that can be applicable now. We have to kind of figure out how to do that. But this isn't something that's brand new. At the same time, this isn't something that was only something that the Israelites dealt with. So I'm wondering if you can take what I just said and give. Give some. Put some meat on it, give some clarity to. To kind of the things that I was. That I was bringing up, because I think that it's important as a stud, as a student of the humanities. That was one thing that really stood out to me in this text, was, okay, let's pause and just for a moment think about this as a human problem, not just something that might have been specific to the Israelites or might be specific to us in our current time when we're talking about student loans or whatever it might be. [00:12:35] Speaker B: So I definitely came up with the same understanding of Jubilee that you articulated, the sense that this was something unique that we see in the life of Israel, that they had a very different economic program because of the God that they served. So I came to the Jubilee texts early with this understanding that this is God's best plan for how to deal with economics and society. And I held that view for many, many, many years under the tutelage of many, many brilliant scholars, particularly Walter Brueggemann, who was the scholar who was talking most often and most eloquently and most pointedly about Jubilee texts. So that. But that, nonetheless, that was how I understood it. And then I started. Some of the things that have happened in the past set of years is that we actually have this growing field of. Is it assyriology? [00:13:44] Speaker A: Yes, that is a companion, not my field. [00:13:47] Speaker B: Right. But it's a companion to history and archeology, et cetera. And so assyriology is looking at that deep human history. Well, that has really grown in the last decade or so. And we are finding more artifacts and more history. So some of this is that we. This is newer information to us in the academy. Right. That has forced me to have to recalibrate. So, yes, I have the push coming from the field in Burundi, forcing me to think differently. But I had to reckon, even just as somebody who cares about the scholarship, and I remember I started reading these books about how actually jubilee practices, which. The key ones among them would be debt forgiveness, setting people free from servitude, which usually was debt slavery, and land returning land to people who had lost it in the rough and tumble of the economy. Right. So we're looking at loans, labor and Land. And, you know, I was like, this is God's plan. And actually, we see this all the way back in 2000. What is it? 2. I always get my. I shouldn't do numbers. I'm terrible at numbers. But all the way back in Sumer, so thousands of years before Israel even was a nation, before the tribes were, you know, together and we were getting the Torah way back. First civilization we have written records of was dealing with indebtedness. And what were they doing, Forgiving debt. That, like, that was something that was a practice. Now it was practiced a little differently. It was connected to the rise of a new ruler, would often do, like an amnesty. And some of that was to celebrate the new ruler. It was also to recalibrate the economy so they'd have a fresh start. There was a lot going on there. But debt release was happening, and it was happening in Babylon, and it was happening and all these other places in that area. This was not novel. And I think that's what I had always thought is. Jubilee practices were novel and unique to Israel, and it was dictated to them by their God. And I really had to stretch myself to be able to say no. This actually was. We now see debt relief, land renegotiations, setting people free from not commercial debt, but personal debt. This was all happening for thousands of years before the Jewish community started having these conversations. So I have to be willing to say this wasn't necessarily, like, God's idea. This was actually part of what it is to be human and try to deal with the reality of economics in our societies and indebtedness being such a big thing. But there were some unique things in the Torah. You know, they did innovate. They did connect it to their faith tradition and their faith story in a unique way. They took it away from being a royal dictate and made it something that happened with regularity so that you weren't right. Like, they did innovate. But this actually isn't necessarily. I would not say now, as I used to, that this was God's idea for the economy. I would just say humans have been innovating, and this is part of what we have tried. And it is within our own tradition that we have tried it, so we can keep doing that. And I did reach out to Walter Bruggman before he passed, and I said, hey, in light of all this new information, Walter, like, am I like. I basically gave him my thesis and said, like, you didn't teach me all this, but I feel like you should have. He's like, yeah, if I were teaching it now, because he had just finished reading all the books I had been reading, and he's like, having read all those, I would frame it differently now, he says, but I. I'm not writing anymore, so you can take. You can do it well, and you did it in it, you know, and I'm glad that he. Like to have him say, no, no, no, you're right. With the new information we now know, we would frame it and talk about it differently. And we should. [00:18:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that's important because I think it doesn't. It doesn't take anything away for me, as, you know, as a theologian, it doesn't take anything away from how we, you know, how I feel necessarily about, as you put it, the innovation that the Israelites were making at the time when it came to jubilee practices. And it certainly doesn't take anything away from, you know, the sacred nature of. Of what this teaches us. And I think in some ways it adds to it to say, this is a problem that humanity has been dealing with for as long as we could write it down. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:53] Speaker A: And. And it. It hasn't stopped. This is a. This is a. It's an evergreen thing. This is a perpetual thing. And so, you know, how can we now, as community members, scholars, theologians, practitioners, how can we continue to think about this and innovate in new ways? You know, you mentioned the new information from history, but we also have just, you know, ways that society and our communities are changing, and it's hard to keep up with in a lot of ways. You know, I'm thinking about now as a student, and I have four students at home and thinking about how, you know, they're dealing with things now. Now I sound like an old person, you know, but I'm like, AI couldn't write my papers when I was in eighth grade, you know, and so. But AI can write papers in eighth grade. And I have my middle schoolers coming and telling me that teachers are having to deal with this, but they'd say, well, yeah, because, you know what? Copying and cheating is as old as time. But now there's just new tools. And so now we have to innovate, you know, and so it's like, this is a problem. Indebtedness is a problem that is as old as time. Credit cards didn't exist then, but they do now. And so, you know, how. How can we innovate and continue to. To deal with this and do so in a way that is faithful, I think, to. To, you know, When. When we see those. Those words and instructions from Yahweh, how can we be faithful to the practices and the. The frameworks, you know, kind of those broader frameworks that were set out. And I think that was one of the things that was most interesting to me in this book is, again, the way that you have wrestled as a theologian with the texts and then also as a practitioner with real people and real people's problems and real banks. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Real banks, Banks and real loans and, oh, my gosh, you know, things. Things that are kind of immovable. Like, if the bank says, you cannot zero out a debt or you'll lose your certificate, then we can't zero out that debt, you know, like. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:04] Speaker B: I mean, so I've also had my. My crisis points with Jubilee. I've loved it and had the utopian moments. I've, like, been totally, like, discouraged because it's hard work. I've also had moments where both Claude and I are like, well, maybe it doesn't hold up, and we just need to let it go and walk away. Like, we've had all the. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I'm wondering if you. There's two different places where I. I kind of want you to talk more right now, but. But I want to give you a choice on how. How you do that. One is, I was struck by just the. The conversation of. Because we're talking about this as. As. As economic, and so just this conversation of, like, what it means to be a part of the economy, like, where wherever you are, you know what that means. I think this was. This was in the. Towards the end. But then as I. As I was reading it, I was thinking about the whole book in that frame. So, you know, just. Just what it means to be a part of an economy as a. [00:22:08] Speaker B: As a. [00:22:08] Speaker A: As a community member. And that colored for me when I thought back to the story that you really started the book with, which was the recalling of the fire that happened in the market. [00:22:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:28] Speaker A: And so that, for me, you know, when I'm looking at this and I'm saying I'm imagining. And I want you to elaborate on this, but I'm imagining you've got so many individuals and families, vendors, who have lost their ability basically, to participate in the economy in one day. Like, it is gone. And there's not just one. There are hundreds of people who've lost their ability to participate in the economy. It's gone in one day. And the reality, the gravity of that. And then how. How does Jubilee speak into ways to move forward right in that as. And I would say for you and Claude specifically, as members of the community who had a different role, you didn't have wares in the market, you had a bank. And so how, how did Jubilee speak to the people who, the vendors and also how did it speak to you and Claude during that time about participation in the economy? [00:23:39] Speaker B: Sure. So I'll tell a little bit of the story and then, you know, we'll pull some of those threads. So one Sunday morning I was here in the US My husband was in Burundi and we were six months in to running a bank. This was a bank that was kind of grew out of a micro lending program. But my husband created like a hybrid so that. Because one of the things he noticed quickly is that there are lots of good things about microlending, but there's not enough capital to really support the natural innovators and business leaders. Like they need more than I think microlending caps you out legally at like giving like two, let's say it's like $200 US but real business people quickly need more capital than that if they're going to grow their business and be able to employ neighbors and. Right. So he came up with a business banking model that used the best of that micro lending, but grew it. So this is a bank for work, for the working poor, to really help identify business folks, get them out and active in the economy, creating, you know, good jobs for themselves and their neighbors. And anyways, but we were only six months into this project, so we were a very new financial institution in burundi. And about 70 plus percent of our folks had businesses in the central market, which was like the big hub for Burundi. And everything came through there. Everything came through that marketplace. You know, stuff came in off the port, went to the central market. All the little people, all the little markets in the upcountry, like they would come down, get their stock up from the central market and take. So this was like the, the heartbeat, the artery system for goods and you know, basically goods all throughout the country. And on a Sunday morning he started getting phone calls. While we were talking on one phone, he was getting calls on his other two phones. And I'm like, you got to deal with whatever that is. Well, turns out the marketplace was on fire and within five hours it was gone. To this day there was still just the metal, like the metal roof that had kind of collapsed. I mean it kind of almost now looks like this modern art feature in the middle of the city. But if, you know, you know, this was the hub of the economic life. But not just that, I mean, right, there were social things that happened there. And you know, like this is where you went to get your phone credit and it's where you went to pick up the bus and it's where you went to grab your herbs and your sister worked there. And you're like, it was the place. I have memories there because of my Burundian family. I have memories in that place, going in there with my mother in law and with my sister in laws and. And it was just gone in five hours. And so there were these two different big dynamics. One was all of those vendors who lost everything. And at that time, 97% of Burundians are unbanked. So these are mostly people who don't have bank accounts. And even though our folks did, they were still learning to trust us, to be honest. They would still have their little cash box. So not everything was deposited right away because they were just learning to trust us and learning to deal with the bank. So people were losing all their inventory, whatever cash they had in their cash boxes. There were lives lost, people who just were there and couldn't get out quick. I mean, it devastated the Burundian landscape. And at the same time, Claude and I were like, this represents, you know, years and months of our life trying to make life better for Burundian people. And we know at least 70% of people aren't going to be able to pay us back. And I don't know if a small institution like ours is going to survive this. So I mean, there was like, right, our own investment, to be honest, you know, they weren't the most important questions, but they were personal to us. But then we also knew what was happening to all of these men and women that had, that were in there with us. So the next morning, Monday morning, when Claude walked to the bank, There were about 40 plus women outside the gate, more already, already crying, already upset. And these were some of the women that we supported their work in the. They had lost everything in the marketplace fire because Sunday morning they were all getting ready to go to church, you know, so a lot of them weren't there to salvage anything. So they were at the gate on Monday morning, Claude lets them in and sits with them for hours, you know, and they just wept. They wept together. They, each one wanted to stand up and talk about what they lost. One woman stood up and said, I, I went to bed, a businesswoman, you know, the night before. And then by the end of Sunday, I was poor again. Like it was that dramatic, you know, what had happened to her. And, you know, we spent time just thinking, okay, first of all, we just have to help these people survive. So we're getting food delivered to their homes. We are going to the hospital for some of our folks that were. Were there and were hurt. And it was like, nobody talk about the money. Nobody talk about the loans. He's like, I just want you to make sure our people are okay, that they can feed their kids, that they don't have to worry about medical bill, like, make sure our people are okay. Let's just show up for them. And I think he kind of modeled for his team a different kind of ethic, which is, you know, the money is not the first thing. You know, making sure that these people survive, being there with them in their moment of need, that is the. That is the most important thing in this moment. Meanwhile, when he wasn't with them, him and I are like, okay, so what do we do? Are we going to close shop? Do we. Can we get somebody to give us an influx of capital to kind of help? I mean, it was all the machinations of how do. What do we do? You know? And I'm like, well, Jubilee says we have to. We have to zero out all that debt. And that was the first time that I learned the limits of Jubilee, because he's like, if we do that, we will lose our certificate with the central bank in modern banking. You cannot zero out debt like that so that we can't. And I was like, as a theologian, I was like, oh, holy bleep. Maybe Jubilee is not real. Like, maybe it's not for real. But while he was doing the things on the field with his team, I just pulled out every commentary I had on Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Isaiah, which is kind of what I call the Jubilee canon. I'm like, what did I miss? What else is there? Was. Have I been wrong? Was Walter Brueggemann wrong? Or is there something deeper? And that is really where we had to push in? And I'm like, I think what's deeper is everybody gets a chance to get back in because Jubilee understands the rough and tumble of the economy. This is going to happen. We're all right. A medical accident away, a medical thing away from, you know, confronting bankruptcy. We're all, you know, one paycheck away from, you know, trouble. We're all like, there can be a natural disaster, whether it's a fire or a hurricane. Like, things happen. And Jubilee actually is very, you know, for all the talk of it being utopian, it actually is Very clear eyed and understanding economies just always undulate. It's just the way of things. And so we have to have a plan for how we address it so that people can get back in, that nobody is locked into poverty, that they. There are ways back in after the bad thing happens, like the marketplace fire. And that was enough to keep us going. So we're like, okay, then it is our biblical imperative as people of faith to make sure all of these people have a way back in. And so then we had a church in Houston that gave us a huge influx of cash and capital. Believing what we believed about the importance of getting these people back in. We met with every single person to get them a plan. What do you need to get back in? You know, and some of them were like, I just need to be able to bring in more stuff from Kenya to kind of restock what I lost. If you can extend my loan by, you know, by a couple of months, I can get back in. Okay, good, we'll extend your loan for other people they needed. Okay, let's see if we can bring down the percentage of what you owe us. Like, we just sat. Every person got a unique plan for how we're going to get you back in, you know, and we had to get pretty creative. But three months later, everybody was back in. Everybody was back in. And when they had the big meeting to kind of debrief, we had grown. We had gotten 800 new members. And as a small little bank to get 800 new met, we're like, man, we, we were so busy trying to help these folks recover, we didn't even notice how many new people were coming. Because what they heard from their neighbors was, you know, that my bank, my little micro lending, like, they closed shop, they couldn't survive this. They left. But this other neighbor down the street, they're bringing her food, they're checking in on her. Like, I want to be part of that kind of a bank, you know, so we actually grew. And so our understanding of Jubilee expanded, but, but also our practices, you know, started to change. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Gosh, Kelly there, thank you for sharing that. There's so many things that are going through my head right now, but the, the one that's, the one that's probably at the front is this. With Jubilee, I think the thing that crosses people's minds probably first is joy. You talk about, you know, it's just, there's scripture, there's shofars being blown, and this is, this is the year. And this is, you know, when, when Jesus calls it the Year. God's favor. And there's, you know, all of these things. And at the same time, what you just described, and you name it in the book, too, is. Is lament. And it. I will say this. We have four kids, and the youngest is adopted. And I was very grateful before he came home to spend some time with an adoption community who really rallied. I mean, it sounds wild, but I'm so grateful for this perspective. They really rallied around this idea. Adoption only happens because there has been a loss. And so we can be excited. We can celebrate our kids. We can do all these things. And to be really the kind of the best adoptive parents we can be, and it's hard to be a parent in general is to always have that kind of. In the back of your mind is that our family exists in the way it does because our child and our child's family have experienced a very incredibly profound loss. [00:35:34] Speaker B: And, you know, that's my story, too. I'm adopted, and my two children are adopted. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:41] Speaker B: So Mother's Day. [00:35:42] Speaker A: I had forgotten. So sorry. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Mother's Day hits very different for us. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:35:47] Speaker B: For I grew up with a parent, you know, a family that kind of erased. Like, yes, you're adopted, but isn't it great? You're with us. You were always meant to be with us. Like, they have a very different narrative around adoption. [00:35:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Whereas with my kids, the conversation was, let's talk about your mamas. [00:36:04] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:05] Speaker B: You get to have us both. [00:36:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:36:07] Speaker B: And having lost them is not something we're going to erase. And it does. It doesn't make our love or my mothering of you any less. But I'm doing it in fidelity with your mamas, who wish they could have, but absolutely. But injustice just got in the way. So, like, it's like, yes, we're gonna celebrate motherhood and family, but we're not going to do it without, like you said, having to touch the soil of lament. Yes, all grew. And. And, yes, Jubilee has that, too. It's like, yes, there's jubilation and celebration, and it is God's favor, but it is hard terrain, and we can't ignore that terrain. Matter of fact, we have to get dirty and get our hands in the dirt. And if we want to see the bumper crop of Jubilee, like, they come together. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Kelly, thank you for that. I'm sorry, I think we may have discussed that last time, and it slipped my mind. But thank you for sharing. Sharing that part of your story, too. It is. It's both. And it is a lot to hold and so I'm imagining the, you know, how, you know, really the, the wonderful part of, for, for everyone, for the institution, for you and Claude, for the community to be able to have a bank that they could trust and have all these new, you know, all these things and the way that the growth happened after that. But man, to sit with your friends, with your community members, with your neighbors and grieve not just for them, but with them over the loss of, of what that meant for everyone and the continued loss. And it is that way when we say, we know the way we started this conversation of, of debt is a human problem. No one's trying to do this. You know, it's like we, like you said, we. We are all a medical event away from a very different financial reality. Yes, there is loss. There's lament. There is, There is the financial part of it, but then there's everything else on, you know, on top of that, you know, we talked about this, student loans in the U.S. we, you know, all of these things where it's like this, this debt for. I would, I would say for, for most. But historically and now this isn't. This is something that means that there is also. There is also a layer of, of loss there for, for many people. And it is a burden. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Yes. And, and the work of Jubilee, like, for those who are, you know, Jubilee practitioners. And I think there's a case to be made that Jesus invited all of us. [00:38:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:39:00] Speaker B: That work, it's hard work. I mean, Jubilee is good news and it is hard news. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:09] Speaker B: And I think I've experienced. I know I've experienced both, but I also think some of that is conditioned by, like, we're like your social location, you know, so Claude often says jubilee is if you are somebody from his community. My husband grew up in extreme poverty, you know, the less than a dollar a day kind of poverty. He's like, there is no better news than somebody telling you your debts are forgiven. There is no better news. Jesus couldn't have said anything more revolutionary or more freeing than to tell a group of people like my neighbors that he grew up with, your debts are all going to be forgiven. Like he says, that is the most radical thing that we often miss in the west because we handle debt different. Right. And at the same time, I can say from my neck of the woods, you know, like, there are people on the other side of those promissory notes who, you know, in good faith purchased a piece of land or entered into a loan agreement or. Right. Like they're going to have to lose something or relinquish something to participate in this kind of economy. And I mean, I think those are part of the conversations that Jubilee invites us into too. Is. It's like, is good news. It is revolutionary news, and it is hard, and it is going to ask things of us, and it is going to make us uncomfortable. But if we are going to be the kind of neighborhood that Isaiah dreamed of, that Moses dreamed of, that Jesus talked about, this is what we're being invited into. What's hard, what's. What's good. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's, it's. No, it's. You're 100% right. There was something that came up for me in the text, and it is along those lines, because social location does matter in how we're viewing all things economic. You know, I think, you know, just. Just this idea that I grew up with, that I try to with my kids. You know, we were. When we lived in Houston, we just moved. We lived in Houston. We would sometimes drive out to take my kids to friends houses and things like that. And sometimes Google will take you kind of the roundabout way. And there are, you know, there are some neighborhood, well, not just Houston, but lots of cities in the US where there are some neighborhoods that we have found ourselves adjacent to on some of these drives where we're like, oh, my goodness, this is not. This is not a gated neighborhood. This is a gated home, you know, or this. This is like a very, you know, and. And my kids, of course, are just oohing and ahhing over all of this. And. But there's this idea of, like, around us, there are always going to people be people who have less than us, and there's always going to be people who have more, regardless of who you are, where you are, all of that. But at the same time, social. Social location matters, because it matters how you view, how you view the world around you. You view it through this, through this lens of your economic and social location. And one of the things in your text hit me, because it hits me every time I think about James, and that is because, you know. [00:42:34] Speaker B: We work. [00:42:35] Speaker A: And in the US There are certain protections and laws that most workers have. And when we work, we get paid. We get paid on time, and we don't have to. Usually, you know, if we're concerning ourselves with this, it is because someone has. Is breaking the law or it's because someone is crossing over the boundaries that are designed to protect us. James talks to believers and says, you don't get to be these People who cross over those boundaries that are designed to protect the people who are doing work for you. When someone works for you, you pay them when they do the work. Period. I was struck by some of the, what you shared in the book about labor and pay practices in Burundi specifically. But again, leading to this conversation of loss and debt, and it's a. There are people who are working and they are in debt not because they're not working. It is because their employer is not holding up their end of the bargain. Which leads, doesn't leave their employer in a bad spot. It leaves them in a bad spot. So I'm wondering if you can talk about even that as it relates to jubilee, but as a theologian and as a practitioner, because that was one of those places where these really came together for me. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Well, I, you know, being married to Claude has allowed me to learn a lot of things about the world that I never had to learn before. And I remember reading, like you said in James, we also see Moses talk quite a bit about the importance of paying people on time before the sun goes down. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:44:37] Speaker B: And I mean, I, you know, now I'm like, well, that was that economy. In this economy, everybody gets paid. I grew up, like you said, everybody gets paid direct deposit. You know, like this is not a thing. I mean, yes, people sometimes will pay vendors, maybe pay them late, right. They'll kind of get in the rears when it comes to paying on an invoice or something. But for the most part that's not an issue, that's antiquated. Until I, you know, spent time in Burundi with my husband and realize that people could work. You could have a job, put on your, you know, your little uniform, go to your job, whether you're a security guard or you're working at a bank or you're working at a bakery or wherever you show up, you do your job. And you could possibly not get paid for three plus months and that that was considered, nor it still is normal because they didn't have enough to be able to pay everybody or they paid everybody a percentage because like there again, we can't afford to pay you what we owe you, but we can at least pay everybody on the payroll 50%. So, you know, these are people who are hard working. They're showing up to work. They're banking on the fact that at some point they will be paid the right amount, that it, they'll be paid in the, you know, that when they get enough money, they will, you know, pay what they owe us. But that makes it really Hard for these people to pay rent and buy food and pay school fees and. Right. So all of a sudden I was like, what Moses said is way more contemporary than I thought, because so many more economies around the world look like Burundi's economy than our economy. Which means, oh, there are a lot of people who are not getting paid. Like, they. They don't know that every two weeks or every month that that money's gonna. They don't. And they. So then they have to go and piece together with their community and get loans from the uncle or the neighbor or some, you know, try and piece together that way so they become indebted to one another. That begins to shape their relationships with their family and friends and their community. Their employer, meanwhile, has the. You know, maybe they're not making as much, but some of them just don't like to pay as much because the longer they hold on to it, right, they're getting. They. They are getting interest. They are, right? Some of them are holding on to it to benefit themselves before they pay out their workers, right? There's also that element. And ever since we started the bank, it was so important to Claude. We pay our people on time every time. And one of the things he is most proud of, which hardly anybody ever asks him about, he is most proud that since the day he has opened the bank and we now have some other, you know, we have a porridge factory and a. Some schools, and everybody gets paid, and they get paid their full amount on payday. We have never, ever missed a pay, you know, a payroll, ever. And. And that is actually a form of jubilee. That actually is a jubilery commitment that he is making as an employer that I will not infringe upon my workers in that way. I won't force them to have to go and get loans from other people. I won't force them to be in the rear. I'm not going to contribute to their being under economic duress. People sometimes don't realize that is still a real dynamic, and it is still jubilee. Goodness. When your employer pays you on time. And people love to work for Claude because, man, he's hard and he expects a lot from his team because he's like, the people we are serving deserve our best. But people love working for him, in part because they know they're going to get paid. They never have to wonder if their paycheck is coming. You know, that's good news. That's Jody. [00:48:48] Speaker A: It is. It is. It is good news. And it is. And it is jubilee. And. [00:48:53] Speaker B: And ask all the government workers right now who are, some of them are getting their last paycheck today before, you know, they're going to have to go without pay until our government reopens. Like, even in our economy, we have these moments where we're confronted with, ooh, our government is not behaving in a very jubilery fashion right now because they might not be. You know, they're not paying people, right. Who. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Who, many of them still have to go to work. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah, they're not going to work. And now we're seeing that in our. In our airline, in our airport systems, right? [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, we are. And I think. I think that's what I kind of want to. I kind of want to circle back to. And maybe we can. We can start to close around here. And then I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you kind of some final opportunity, opportunity for some final thoughts and encouragement around this topic. But we've been saying economy, and I think I just want to clear up for myself. And you can, you can add whatever you'd like to. To this and edit whatever I say here, but I think economy. When you were. When you were talking about Claude encouraging his team to serve the people that they're serving to the best of their ability to. This is what I'm thinking of when I'm using the term economy in the context of our conversation. It is, as you're saying, people working at the airport, serving travelers, you know, people who are going. It is not specific to, you know, Western capitalism or something like that. It is the ability, as you're saying, to get back in. To participate in the community in this way. It is someone grows the grain. Right. You know, kind of back to. For me thinking kindergarten kind of stuff. Like somebody grows the grain, then someone else takes the grain and transports. And then someone else takes it and makes it into bread, and then that goes to the market. You know, it's the ability because. Because no one can do it all. And so we participate with one another in part through the economic system to make sure that our needs are met and that we are participating by helping meet the needs of others as well in our communities. I mean, people live. No one in their house, made all of the furniture that they are sitting on and eating at. And so when I'm talking about economy and I think YouTube, but again, edit, I'm talking about that kind of this big, bigger term, but this does involve the exchange of money. It does involve debt, it does involve loans and all of those things. And to be locked out of the economy is detrimental, not just financially, but as you mentioned before, socially, communally, emotionally. I mean, it's all of those, all of those things to participate in the economy. So I think that's one of the things I got, one of my takeaways I got from this is like to, to think about jubilee practices, to think about jubilee in, in theology or biblically, it is not just this kind of flattened debt. This is the only definition. It's like, no, this is so much bigger than that. It is so much more holistic really than that. And so, so maybe if you have commentary on that, I'd love to hear it. And then after that, if you want to, you know, give us any final kind of final thoughts you have as people who are maybe thinking for the first time or rethinking this, these ideas of jubilee. [00:52:29] Speaker B: Well, I do think, you know, I often talk about the economy and there's this macro sense that I think. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:36] Speaker B: Is kind of how we often use it when we talk about economy or economies. But I think the invitation, the, the biblical text talks about both the macro and the micro. Right. And the smaller is these women selling their fruits in the market. Right. That, that, that interchange, that exchange means something to their family at home when they can bring food home means something to the person who's getting the tomatoes. It means like it, it. All that capillary action, it connects us. The money is moving, but it is moving through families, through people. And to be locked out, I mean, poverty is, is. I think we've had discussions where we are starting to talk about poverty isn't just the lack of money, Right. It's, it's lack of resource, which can be time, can be access to opportunity, can be access to the relations to relationships. Like, like there is a, a deep, full throat, full, well, holistic kind of poverty. So when we talk about economies. Right. That idea is connected. Yeah. But yes, I agree with you. And it, Yeah, I think it's part of the reason. It's so interesting to me that Moses, when he's standing with, you know, the story goes that he's having kind of that final big moment, move meeting, you know, before they all move into the promised land. And one of the last things he wants to tell them when they're all together and they're getting ready to start this new endeavor in their land. And that's a whole nother conversation. But the way the story goes, it's like, what does he talk about? The one thing that I think could really be your Achilles heel is the way that debt impacts neighborliness and the neighborliness that we have developed these 40 years in the desert, relying on each other, sharing with one another, like, right, that could. The thing that's going to jeopardize that debt. That's why I started talking about paying each other. And at some point, you guys are going to have jobs and make money and you're going to be able to. Money is going to come into the picture. Debt is going to come into the picture. And that could really wrought all of this neighborliness we've cultivated over these years together. And Moses didn't want to see that happen. Right? Like, so also, just the understanding that debt is connected to neighborliness. And Moses saw it, you know, and as one of kind of our prophets, our wisdom teachers, I think, man, he, he, he, he was on to something, you know. So I think for us to recognize that actually, you know, it's caused Claude and I to think a lot differently about when people need something from us and they say, can you just loan us? You know, in very pragmatic ways, it's like, we have opportunities. And maybe this is the final thing I would remind people, is that the Lord's Prayer, you know, talks about debt. And I think a lot of people miss it because over the years, the church has changed the language. They've softened it. Lord, forgive us, you know, right. Our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And we think it's the people who've hurt our feelings who've gossiped about us. Like, I always grew up thinking that. But actually, the language underneath that is money. Lord, forgive us our debt and help us to release people from the debts they owe us. Which, by the way, my son learned to pray the Lord's Prayer that way. And he thinks it's weird people pray it the other way, but it's like, no, I think early on, Jesus was saying, you know, yes, you pray for daily bread because we all need to eat. You also pray for the other big thing hanging over our head, which is our debt. So you pray that you'll be released from all that debt that you're carrying. Maybe the bigger, right, the macroeconomic big debt. But there are ways that we could be embodying jubilee even today by forgiving each other's debts. I've loaned so and so a couple hundred dollars. I actually probably could forgive that debt. And so I'm breaking the cycle of an exploitive economy and embodying neighborliness in a way that Moses and Isaiah would have recognized. And I am entering into the Jubilee campaign that I think Jesus invites us into to say, I'm not going to, to the degree that I can. I don't want to participate in the exploitive economics that keep people locked out. And so there are some small ways I can pay my staff on time. I can make sure work conditions are safe so that they don't have that medical emergency because I didn't do my part as a good employer. I can forgive small debts when I can't. Like, there are ways we can start to become Jubilee practitioners even today. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Kelly, thank you so much. Like you said, we could have a whole other conversation about land and we could, we could have a whole additional conversation slash Bible study about the Lord's Prayer. We really could there. Say it again. [00:58:05] Speaker B: About adoption, too. [00:58:06] Speaker A: About adoption, too. Hello. I mean, there's, there's so much here and there's, there's, there's so much here on this topic. There's so much in the book. Again, I just want, I just want to, like, personally thank you for this work. It is it, it has been so great to, to help. Yeah. Inform how I think about this. And I really mean it when I say that you're wrestling with. This was beneficial to me. It is helping me to wrestle with this. And I think, I think that's a great thing because as you said, we're. Jesus is calling us to be practitioners of jubilee, and that's going to look certain ways in our contexts. And so this, this is being, this is really helpful for me. I'll say the name of the book again and of course there will be a link where people can grab it in the show notes. It's called Jubilee Economics, the Purpose, Practices and Possibilities for a Better Future by Kelly. Kelly Nicundeja. Kelly, thank you so much again for being with me. [00:59:04] Speaker B: It was a pleasure. [00:59:07] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit us at thatmakestotalsense.sam.