Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 2 00:00:40 Hi everybody. I am sitting across today from two different screens. I'm being told in the same house with Amy crouch and Andy crouch, and they are the co-authors of a brand new book called my tech-wise life. Growing up and making choices in a world of devices. Hi Amy. Hi, Andy. Hello. Hello. Good to be here. Oh, I'm so thrilled that you guys are here. And I want to, I want to introduce the two of you and probably give you a chance to introduce yourselves in just a moment, but we chatted a little bit before we started recording. And I was saying that I have a relationship with an incredible publicist and she sent this book over to me and I she's always so spot on with everything she sends me. There's no exceptions. And then I thought,
Speaker 0 00:01:31 Hm, I wonder why she sent me a book on tech. This seems a little,
Speaker 2 00:01:39 Um, but then I skimmed through it. And then I finally got the chance to read it this week. And so spoiler alert, the book is not entirely about tech and we'll talk about that a little bit, but I just kind of wanted to get that out of the way, because people are going to hear the introduction of exploring God's generosity and justice. And they're going to think Alexis, you have gone off the deep end. Why are you talking about cell phones and, you know, and Kindles and things like that. But, um, but we'll get there. So, Amy, I want to start with you, if you could introduce yourselves yourself to us since you're like the main author of this book and you're, you're the one who did the research on this?
Speaker 3 00:02:18 Yes. Well, hello. My name is Amy Amy crouch, and I'm a student at Cornell university, a junior, uh, I'm studying linguistics and also English and really just whatever I can manage to fit into my schedule. Um, and I'm also the author of this new book, my tech wise life with my dad. Um, it's a book about, um, both my story, but also the story of my whole generation, really when it comes to technology. Um, both my experiences growing up in a family that was very intentional about our use of technology, but also filled with research, um, which I collaborated with Barna, um, the Barna group on doing research on what it's like for people, my age, to have grown up with technology, how teens and young adults feel about this brand new forest, which is really reshaping our lives. So this is a book for people, my age for teens and young adults. Um, but I really hope that it can be helpful for a lot of people. Anyone who is interested in hearing essentially what it's like to try to seek wisdom in a world, which is so filled with devices.
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Hmm. Thank you so much. And I just want to say upfront, I am okay. Going on two decades older than you are, but I gained so much from both sections. Maybe we'll talk about how it's organized in a little bit. And so yes, I did think of some younger people in my life that I would put this in their hands, but, but you really spoke to me too. This is not, I feel like I'm not trying to like ruin your, you know, your audience or your PR here, but I feel like this is like not just a book for people who are your age, um, because I really so much from, from your sections and from what you said in that. So thank you so much for that. And Andy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and then your story with this book too?
Speaker 4 00:04:11 Yes. Well, uh, I'm mostly here, like along for the ride as Amy's dad, because it really is her book and her voice. And in the book I write kind of short responses to her, but, um, it did emerge out of another book. I wrote, I, I spent a lot about a third of my life as a writer, I would say, um, trying to write books that, um, kind of give voice to what we're all thinking and name some things we're all thinking about. Um, in this case a few years ago, the folks at Barna approached me and said, we really feel like you might have something to say about technology and family life. And I said, well, that wasn't really on my roadmap, but I think I might have something to say about it. So that ended up being a book called the tech-wise family that came out in 2017, uh, which actually Amy wrote the forward for.
Speaker 4 00:05:01 So, um, we wanted, we wanted, at that time that 16 year olds like stamp of approval saying, you know, my dad's not crazy. Kids don't have to hate this, you know? Um, and the kind of crazy thing is that book, um, which was really a side project has, and I think selling more copies than all my other books combined at this point. And in fact, it connects very deeply to kind of some of my very deep passions, um, which I think at the root are about what it means to bear the image of God in the world. And, and the ways that bearing the image of God has been distorted by our choices in the human story and the ways that we've, um, kind of chased after alternative images, which the biblical word for that is idolatry and alternative systems of human behavior and practice, which I think in a way is what the Bible calls injustice.
Speaker 4 00:05:55 So to me, I you're and injustice are, are joined at the hip and the denial of the image of God in ourselves and in others. Um, and technology is like the dominant location in my view of, of idolatry and in many ways injustice in our world today. And so it ends up really connecting, but you know, this little book tech wise family has had kind of a life of its own. And, and the number one, well, the number one requests people have is, is there a book I could give to my kids, uh, that they could read, you know, not from the parent's perspective. And the other question people ask is, well, are your variations of, are your kids okay? You sound reasonably radical and different and what was it like to grow up in that household? And so Amy's here to tell you whether it was a disaster or not, or it, or it was, um, sometimes, but it was mostly a gift to all of us.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 I love hearing you say that. And, and I just, I just wrote down, like, I'm trying like frantically, I'm realizing I'm taking notes on top of my notes with the things that you guys are saying. Um, but I have this little, um, in my, in my, on my notepad, I have this little, this little star I kind of put in the margin and I thought, I don't know if I'm going to go there. Cause it feels like a little bit, it feels a little overblown maybe. And then Andy, from what you just said, I'm like, Nope, I'm doing it. But I thought, okay, I don't want to sound too, like overly dramatic, but I feel like we can take this book as a call to really examine our lives, like so much of our lives. And the tech part for me comes in as using that tech as a tool or like a mirror sometimes to examine those parts of my life.
Speaker 2 00:07:45 Right. So, so even this, uh, chapter on, uh, you know, uh, you don't have to be disconnected or you don't have to be distracted. Right. And so it's like, it's not just about, um, the, the disconnection, am I on my phone? Do you know how many hours does my phone tell me I'm on it per day or per week or something? Am I, am I really connecting? But it's like, wow, am I actually physically an intimately connecting, you know, spiritually with the people around me. Um, sometimes I can look at my tech, right? That's kind of how I read the book is like, I can look at my tech and use that as a tool to help me see more clearly what I'm doing inside of these relationships and how I'm operating even, you know, internally with me, my relationship with the Lord and then also my relationship with people around me. But I figured that was a go place. When you said what you said about that, um, about living that in the image of God. So, um, so I don't know if you guys would do, do you guys hope that people use the book in that way? Oh yes, absolutely. Oh
Speaker 3 00:08:56 My goodness. Oh, it makes me so happy to hear you say that. Um, I would say the fundamental belief of this book because it's one of my fundamental beliefs is yeah. That the Lord, the world in which we live in is a good world created by God and the communities that we are in our communities of image bearers created by God for good and loving relationships. And of course, all of that has been broken by sin. But I think the fundamental call of this book really, um, is, is calling readers and also myself, um, to pay attention to that world to become more deeply immersed in God's good creation and in relationships we have with God's well creative people. Um, and I think that, honestly, I think often what sin does is it distracts us from that world. That's always been a problem. I think sin has always sought, um, to, to make it harder for us to see the goodness that God has created and to see other people as being made in his image and technology is, is just one of many things, which makes it sometimes a little easier to step away from the world and from other people.
Speaker 3 00:10:15 And so if this book can prompt people to examine the ways that their technology is kind of, um, filtering their view of the world and of the people around them and even, uh, even of yourself, I, that is my number one goal.
Speaker 2 00:10:32 Can you tell Amy, can you tell a story from the book? I just thought of this when you were, when you were talking, but I think it was maybe you guys were making scones. I'm trying to remember if it was scones or cookies or something like that. And, and you kind of had this like realization of like, what am I doing in my own kitchen? Can you tell that? Cause I feel like that story really puts forward the relationship part of that.
Speaker 3 00:10:54 Yeah. This was, um, my freshman year of college. Um, and I was making scones with some of my friends. Um, and you know, this is, this is the point where we're all kind of like new friends, cause it's freshmen fall, you know, we're, we're like good friends, but it's still, it's still feels sort of new and something that you have to invest in. And we were all making scones together. I think it was like maple pecan. I'm not sure. Um, because we all loved to bake and when they got out of the oven, they were so beautiful. These were the most beautiful scones. They had this gorgeous, like maple syrup glaze. And so we all like took some pictures. Um, and what I noticed in myself, like two minutes later was that I had gone from taking a picture of the scones to posting them on my Instagram story, to noticing some notifications, which seemed really urgent, like putting on some ladies who even doing this later, I was like, Oh, I have just spent like some precious time in the company of my friends, staring at my phone at very unimportant things.
Speaker 3 00:12:03 And I I'm really embarrassed to relate that, but it's also something that happens to us all the time because our devices just pull us in so powerfully, um, and in ways which can almost be invisible and really hard to, to notice in the middle of it. And, uh, you know, it's not, it's not like I destroyed my friendships that day. You know, it's not like this one time being distracted by my phone, sort of ruined any chance. I had a human connection. That's not the case, but did cause me to miss out on something really good, which was the presence of these friends, the opportunity to get to know them better and to see them more fully. And I think that even small lost opportunities like that are really important. And I think it's really, we really need to prioritize even those moments, which don't seem very consequential because they can lead to much bigger things.
Speaker 2 00:13:09 All right. So thank you for sharing that because I thought we've all been there. I mean that, and that's why I say this is not just a book for, for 19 year olds, right? I mean, this is, this is one of those things where I'm like, I went to breakfast yesterday with my husband. Um, I told you earlier, it's it's finals week for me. And so this was kind of like, let's go get crepes. And then I promise I'm going to go home and I'm going to spend all day on this Greek final. And, um, and I did, um, but I will almost all day, but, um, but I took a picture of this beautiful. So we discussed earlier, I'm in Houston, so everything's still green here. I mean it's December and everything's still green and there was this beautiful, like potted, you know, huge, huge potted plants, you know, thing outside of the restaurant, I thought that is so gorgeous.
Speaker 2 00:13:52 I've got to take a picture of that, but I kind of made myself and I mean, we'll say maybe it was because I'd read half of your book. I don't know, but I kind of make myself wait until my not the right Instagram time to post that. Right. I mean, it was like, you know, get all my stories, you know, hours and hours later, because I was like, I dedicated, I'm gonna, we're gonna eat breakfast and I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna work on this final and, you know, pick the kids up from school and you know, all of those things, but it's, it's that one decision and I will tell you, it's so much easier to do exactly what you did. Yes. It's so much easier because it's just right there. It's at our fingertips and the time is right now. Um, and I kind of want to shift if it's okay to Andy. One of the things that really, I, I had all of the notes in the book when you were talking about it and it pulls from that story, Amy, of like, it was just, it was just here. Then you had notifications and you had all of this, but the Andy, you were talking about the design of these devices.
Speaker 2 00:15:01 I mean, tell me what you want to say, what you want to say about that, because I can see your face going on that, but it's like, what does, what does the design behind these devices have to do with us? What can we learn about ourselves and the design and what do you want to tell us about, about that?
Speaker 4 00:15:20 Um, I think there's a number of different layers to that. Um, you know, all of this of course has had to be designed, uh, the, uh, the world that we were placed in as, um, as image bearers. Uh, of course we do believe it was created by God. And it's, uh, it's also, uh, a complicated thing to say exactly what it means to say that, uh, but it certainly is not a technological world. The, the, the quote, unquote, real world, the world that we were given to steward intent, it's, it's not a world that's sort of, uh, you know, in design, we talk about affordances, which are the ways that our devices kind of prompt us to use them so that a door handle kind of signals to you, how you ought to engage with the door. It, and it makes it easier in a way, but it also kind of constraints the way you interact with the door.
Speaker 4 00:16:09 It kind of nudges you in a direction, right? And the interesting thing about the world that God actually faces in is it has no affordances, uh, at least no obvious ones. There's no handles, there's no instructions. There's no, um, one pathway to go through the world. Instead, God wants us to unfold all the possibilities of the world, which are manifold rather than being channeled into one narrow way of being. So, um, our, our, the technological area that we've added is intentionally shaped by an imagination of who we are as human beings and what we want and the best way to get what we want. But all that was done by people, real people with their own points of view, their own social location, their own backgrounds, their own imaginations that are constrained. So, you know, there's, so there's many layers then to the choices that the designers have made.
Speaker 4 00:17:04 And, uh, and one that I think has become, people are more and more aware of, um, the movie, the social dilemma has, uh, has gotten a lot of attention because it kind of unpacks this with respect to social media. One is the notification layer of our devices. So our devices, people decided in a way, and this was a decision that could have been otherwise that as soon as something happened, we would want to know. So as soon as someone likes your posts, at least if, and now the interesting thing is there's another layer now, which is as soon as someone that the algorithms determined is significant to you likes your posts. So if someone you don't really know well, or you never liked their posts, if they hit the heart button on Instagram, Instagram may not tell you right away, because they don't want to you with notifications, but there are people who you're very actively engaged with.
Speaker 4 00:17:54 And the moment that person acts you'll find out. Now they're not, not actually with you. They're not in the room with you, but the designers have decided you need that notification to show up. And ideally you need a sound and a vibration and a, and a site, all, you know, all the senses need to be activated. Now that is incredibly powerful to us, right? So Instagram in some ways knows me better than I know myself. It knows whose opinion I care the most about. And it has designed this kind of push into my life to tell me which, which think about how different that is from the day it was when the mail was delivered once a day. And all of your notifications, I'm, I'm putting my hands up to make quotes here, right? All your quote unquote notifications from the outside world came in one bundle at one time, you sorted through it.
Speaker 4 00:18:44 You said, Oh, this is a letter from my friend, Oh, this is junk mail, but now it's like ping, ping, ping, ping. It's all also it's designed to be intermittent, which is the most powerful form of reinforcement. That is to say that, um, that when we get con uh, this is a famous result from experimental psychology. That even when you give rats, uh, the same reward, every time they do something, they lose interest. But if you sometimes give them the reward and sometimes don't for the same action that they will actually engage in much more addictive, like behaviors cause intermittent reinforcement, the slot machine, that kind of thing is the most powerful. So someone designed us that designed the notification layer to, to, uh, tap into that human need, to have novelty, to have significance all that stuff. Uh, and let me just mention another much deeper layer. And you mentioned this Alexis, it's the, it's basically just the idea that things ought to be easy, uh, that my life ought to be easy. I sh I should easily be able to share this and get a response, which is actually not how our deepest relationships work. I don't, I don't think parenting is easy in the way that Instagram is easy, right.
Speaker 2 00:19:58 And the way that anything is easy
Speaker 4 00:20:01 Friendship is easy in that way. Um, but the technology has been designed to respond to our desire for an easy life. And, and we could, you know, so we've talked about, I've talked about, I feel like I'm monologuing here, so I'll stop. But, uh, we talked about like the notification layer, the reinforcement layer, the easy layer, but there's all these other, other layers and they're all designed in and they all are based on very questionable assumptions about what we actually want to need. Um, and, and that's why technology is kind of uniquely dangerous to us, I think.
Speaker 5 00:20:35 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:20:37 Does that make sense? I've realized a lot in a row.
Speaker 2 00:20:40 No, it's good. I'm just, I'm just, again, processing and note taking. No, it's, it's so good. Um, but it, but all of that reminded me of another thing that I think is really, um, that's really powerful and again, just kind of using this, um, the technology, the idea of it and the thing itself to expose and help us examine, um, you know, how we're, how we're living and, um, and Amy, you said, I think it may have been in the, in the last chapter. So this is, this is like kind of spoiler alert, but it was just my favorite. It was just my favorite. But, um, you said there's one thing that tech assumes and, and it made me cause you use the same language, but, but you said, Amy, you said tech assumes that we need saving. Hmm. You need to be saved from our boredom or from our loneliness or from our busy-ness or from, you know, fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 00:21:43 Um, tech assumes that we need saving. And that lends to the next logical part, which is we'll then it'll just be our savior, right. It can, it assumes that we need this thing, this, this instance in our life over and over again. And so it will just be the savior for us. Um, but I, I kind of want you to tell him there a story, if you will, from your book about, um, about the, the pictures from the school dance and, and that, that period, because the relational, um, rescue that came from that was so beautiful. And so, um, so rewarding and I think it just, it just tells us what relationships can deliver that tech can't, even though we sometimes look there.
Speaker 3 00:22:37 Yeah. Um, well, this is the story that I wanted to tell in opening the book, because I think in some ways, um, it's, it's the thing that almost every teenage girl and I would even say any teenager has experienced and can relate to. Um, and it also was kind of a unique moment. I would say in many ways I was spared from some of this, the really strong stresses of technology, but this was a really kind of unique moment for me when I found myself just totally, totally devastated by, um, what social media was requiring of me. So, um, I tell him the very beginning of the book, a story, um, after a school dance, um, you know, we were all dressed up. I had a great time at the dance, you know, um, and I really wasn't thinking about what I looked like or how anyone was perceiving me.
Speaker 3 00:23:37 I was just having a fun time at this dance. And then the next morning as they do the photographs taken, the dance all started to roll in. And Ugh, I don't even like to relive this moment because it was so awful, something in me. I was just so, so upset with how I looked in every photo. I found some reason to be like, Oh, I look terrible. This is awful. Um, and I hated every single photo of me. Um, and what made it worse was that I knew exactly what I was supposed to do, which was, I was supposed to post these photos onto Instagram with a cute little caption and, you know, to get a lot of likes and comments, which told me that I looked great and that we all had a fun time at the dance, but I so deeply did not want to do that. I hated how these photos looked. I didn't want anyone to see them. And I felt awful about myself, not just about the way I looked, but it just caused me to completely reconsider, you know, that I had enjoyed myself at this dance, but suddenly now I'm like, Oh, did I just look terrible the whole time? It was really, really difficult.
Speaker 6 00:24:57 So for, for it
Speaker 3 00:25:00 A whole day, and I think maybe a little more, I was really just completely undone by this. I kept thinking about how, how awful I felt that I looked and what that meant for kind of who I was and how I was perceived. I was, I so hated the thought of posting these photos to Instagram and having other people see them and judge them. And I had no idea what to do. I, like I reached out to friends sort of online. I was like, Hey, I really, I don't want to post these photos. And, you know, very well. And intentionally only, you know, they kind of texted back and they were like, Oh no, don't worry about it. You look great. Go ahead and post them. People will like them and you'll feel better about yourself, but it did not. It did not help. I was, uh, I was just so deeply distressed.
Speaker 3 00:25:56 And so I think maybe two days after this kind of inciting moment, I reached out to my youth, pastor Bethany. And I don't think I told her very much. I was just like, hi Bethany. I really need some help, which I did. And so we went out for dinner together that very same day. And for the first time I talked to somebody in person about it, I talked to somebody who I knew loved me and cared for me unconditionally. And I discovered that I wasn't alone because of course Bethany, like pretty much every young woman in this era had also experienced seeing photos that she hated and, um, having awkward experiences, all these things we just talked and we started to laugh about how, how ridiculous and how in a good way, um, how, how little we needed to care about this world of Instagram, of pictures, of likes and comments.
Speaker 3 00:26:57 And I just went home feeling so loved and so healed. And I think slowly as I, as I've kind of been, you know, three, three or four years later now I've had time to process it. I realized that really what those pictures set off in me wasn't Oh, do I have like an ugly nose? Like, that's not, it wasn't really about how I appeared. It was this very deep question of am I worthy of being loved? Am I worthy of being kind of approved by my peers and technology could not answer that question. Just texting my friends and getting, you know, sweet, reassuring answers that wasn't what I needed. I didn't need to be told that, Oh, actually they were nice pictures. I needed to be told that I was loved and I was cared for no matter whether I photograph well or my hair looks nice and technology will never be able to do that for us.
Speaker 3 00:28:03 I think it's only through relationship, whether with other humans who bear God's image or with our God, that we can truly be assured of how beloved we are. I, you know, my name. So my name is Amy and that name actually means beloved. And I think one of the almost hardest and best things that I have had to learn is that I am beloved unconditionally and absolutely beloved. And I think that's the message that we all need. And if our technologies, our devices get in the way of our deep understanding of how beloved we are, I think we will suffer really deeply. But if we can step beyond the kind of shallow and limited world of liking and approving and commenting into a space where we are known and deeply loved, I think we can really find hope.
Speaker 2 00:29:12 I agree. That's so that's so well said. And so the first thing I thought of is your youth pastors, right? And you're right. Almost every young woman has that moment. I will tell you, I thought of my moment while I was reading your book, but this was back in the day. So back then, there, it wasn't, no one was posting on social. We didn't have cell phones. We had Andy, you might remember this. I don't know where we're at diff slightly different age group, but we had party pics at the dance. Right. So they would come and a professional photographer would come and take pictures, random, you know, candid pictures of everyone at the dance. And then you see where this is going. And then you get these, uh, proofs that are at least thumbnail proofs. Right. And so you think, I, I think I look good in that one.
Speaker 2 00:30:02 Yeah. I think I'll order 72 and 54. Do you remember this end? Like, and like 91 and I think I'll get, I'll get to some of those prints, but, but like the proofs are out there. Right. And so it's like all of the, all of the proofs of everyone at the dance is just there. Of course they're tiny. So it's hard to be like entirely embarrassed, but then I ended up, or to this particular dance, I ended up ordering like half a dozen of these prints because they were coming like, you know, a physical form and an envelope. They pass them out in English class or whatever. And then it's like, Oh dear, like what did I order? Like, you know, like I was, I'm going, Oh my goodness, I look so goofy or, you know, whatever, but they're ordered now I spent the money, but you know, we, we, we do, I think it's important that this, because that's just another thing of like this, isn't just a technology story, right?
Speaker 2 00:30:51 This is a human story. We all have those moments. When as image bearers, we look at our own imperfect image and have a problem with it. Right. We say, Hm, I don't, I don't see myself right now as beloved. I don't see myself right now, the way I'm promised God sees me. So it's probably not an artifact issue. It's a lens issue that we have to cross. Right. And, and one of the most powerful things in the book, and I don't want to, I don't want to like spend, you know, do the whole thing because I really want people to get their hands on this and read it. But I'm wondering Andy, if you might just touch on this, because it was, I think in your letter response back to Amy in this same chapter, you talk about, she's not unique. I'm not unique. Bethany's not unique, but biblical characters, real life, people that we look to as, as, as heroes of our faith, struggled with insecurity and seeing how they perceive themselves and how other people perceived them. That was just such a section of wisdom. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Speaker 4 00:32:02 Uh, yeah. I, um, I don't think I knew at all about the story that Amy just shared at the time. Um, I mean, you know, as a parent, you definitely can tell your kids are having a good day or a hard day. And so there were certainly were hard days, uh, that we could tell our daughter was struggling, but, you know, so appropriately to some extent, kids don't share all this with their parents. So I first learned about it by reading, uh, that the same chapter that you read. Um, and I have to say as a father, it's just, uh, it was hard. Uh, I mean, not in a bad way, just it's so painful to know how much pain is involved in being a kid and, uh, how that gets amplified in certain ways. But, but as I reflected on it, I thought, I did think, you know, this is not this, um, this need to be, uh, to, to stand out this need to be seen this needed to be approved this question of where do I belong is so primal.
Speaker 4 00:33:07 And, uh, and it's so interesting. I mean, I think it, in some ways is most visible in the first book of the Bible and the, in, you know, the Genesis, the, the beginning of human of, well, more specifically of the story of the people of God is the story of insecure. So there's these two, two examples that came to mind. I wrote about them in the book. And, uh, it's interesting that one's male, one's female. Uh, on the one hand you have, Jacob has the younger brother. And so he's going through life. He's a twin, but he's born second. And that that's everything in that world. You know, the first one, the first born matters in a way that every other child does not, but Jacob's come into the world like grabbing onto his, his, uh, brothers, you know, um, ankle and, and trying to grasp his way into significance and ends up.
Speaker 4 00:33:59 It's just such a complicated story. Um, but ends up in this wrestling match with an angel that we are led to think is somehow God himself, I guess, uh, at least, uh, uh, messenger or presence of God, uh, and limps away from the encounter, um, with nonetheless having been blessed and having, and, and having had this like visceral all night wrestling match to discover basically who he is and where he fits in the world. And then there's this other story earlier of, um, Sarah's, uh, made hay are who, uh, in this very ill, ill conceived. And we might say, move, you know, uh, Abraham, it's a answer. I try to have her bear, the baby that will carry on their line. And then surrogates so jealous that she, she adjusts her from the family, sends her into the wilderness. And I was thinking about this one who, who is like adjacent to the story of chosen ness, but is not chosen.
Speaker 4 00:35:05 She's not, you know, I'm Paul, we'll let her pick up on this story and say, the slave woman is not the line that God intended. And this is like a it's Abraham and Sarah, his own way of grasping for significance and power. But here's this woman whom is just subjected to this and then it's cast out by it, uh, with her little baby. But in the midst of the wilderness has this encounter with God. And nah, she's the first person in the, in the Bible to give God a name. And this becomes something that happens over, over in the Bible. People have an encounter with God. They're like, Oh, the name for you is you're the God who.dot dot. And she says, you're the God who sees. And so this is just such a deep part of being human is the question, am I seeing if I am saying, what does that mean?
Speaker 4 00:35:55 Is my being seen, going to lead to shame, or is my being seen, going to lead to being known and restored? Um, and, and you can't, uh, the, the only way to, to get through that is to go through it. And, and so as much as I wish that I could have like magically rescued my daughter from this experience, in fact, the only place that that security is going to be found is on the other side of the question, am I seeing, and, and the, the wrestling match is going to have to happen. And, and it led me to think, I wonder we, you know, as parents, as a parent, of course, I think, you know, as my job to kind of create a secure, safe environment for my child. And, and there are ways in which it's very important that parents do that, but in the deepest ways, I'm not going to be able to do that.
Speaker 4 00:36:48 And that's okay because real security comes from having been rescued, not from having never suffered or been in jeopardy. And it's on the other side of rescue that we realize there is a God who sees a, there is a God who will wrestle with me as long as it takes until I know that I'm blessed. And, um, and that, uh, I mean, that's why this book is not really about technology, right? Because this is the real stuff. And it's the real stuff of family. It's the real stuff of coming of age. And, um, and I'm just grateful that, that, uh, Amy had Bethany to call and to be that representative of the God who sees her and loves her, uh, at that moment.
Speaker 2 00:37:29 Oh, absolutely. I mean, I just, I just kept thinking like, this is what we can be for one another. We can be exactly what you said. We can be that representative of God for one another, because that, and that to me too, it goes back to at the beginning, when you were talking about in injustice and idolatry, it's like, if we're so wrapped up in these other things, you can't see where someone might need a rescuer, we can't risk. Someone might need us to step in. And, and, um, and they won't be able to see us either when, when, when we're, who need that as well. Um, and so that, that part was just so powerful for me. Thank you for, for going through that again, because, um, I have, uh, a girlfriend who's a little older than me and when her daughter was, had a breakup or something, and she said, honey, I hate to tell you, there's there's, you can't go over it.
Speaker 2 00:38:23 You can't go under it when it comes to heartache, you just have to go through it, you know? And I, and I think that's what you just said. You know, there are some things that we can only learn by going through it and allowing ourselves sometimes to be, um, on the other side, um, Amy, I'm wondering, I've, I've enjoyed our time so much together. I, I could just talk to you guys all day, but, um, I'm wondering if you have anything like, this is your you've wrote the forward to your dad's book, but this is your first book. And I know you'll have tons of interviews and you've already had tens of interviews, but if there was something that I forgot, I didn't ask you the right question, or I didn't bring up the right thing. Is there anything that you're thinking that's just like burning in you that you're thinking if I could leave people with one more thing, this, this is what it would be.
Speaker 3 00:39:11 Ooh, that is a good question. Um, well, let's see. I have, I, I think, yes. I think what I have to talk about, um, is Sabbath my favorite chapter in the book. Well, maybe my second favorite, I love the last chapter, but one of, one of the things that I feel most passionately about is the discipline slash gift of Sabbath. And I could talk for hours about what it means to have this day of rest each week. Um, I actually like wrote a whole other article for my like, campus journal about Sabbath. So I feel very strongly about it, but I think, yeah, I wouldn't want to leave any listener, um, without happening, um, brought up the day of rest and I, I write more practically in the book about the specifics of what it looks like to take a Sabbath from technology and, um, the sort of specific steps you can take to have a day, which is kind of set aside from technological distraction and all of the ways that our devices lie to us really.
Speaker 3 00:40:27 Um, but I think in, in the light of, you know, your podcasts being about generosity and justice, I would say that the Sabbath, the day of rest every single week is the, almost the ultimate example of both generosity and justice. Um, I have been, so my family, I think the greatest gift that my family has given me is passing on the gift of God, which is the Sabbath. And I usually say it's like the one thing that, which has kept me sane during college. I, we, so everyone lives in a world with, with some kind of sets of expectations placed upon them. And for me, being at kind of, you know, a competitive university, that expectation is you're defined by what you do by what GPA you have, by how even how much time you spend working on your homework. Um, you're defined by what you do.
Speaker 3 00:41:23 And the Sabbath is this day, which says none of those expectations ultimately define you none of the assumptions of about whether we're anxious and lonely, none of the assumptions of Cornell university about, um, about how, what percentage I got on my problem set. Um, all the matter is, is that we are creatures of God who are meant to glorify and enjoy him. And so it's this absolutely generous outpouring of love in which we get to recenter ourselves, um, as yeah, as who we truly are rather than all of the different selves that the world tells us that we have to be. And yet it's also this icon of justice. Um, the Sabbath is, uh, you know, one of the most incredible things about the Sabbath, especially in, in Leviticus where it's very firmly laid out. The laws of Sabbath is that the Sabbath is for everyone.
Speaker 3 00:42:26 A day of rest is not just for the leisure class. Um, it's not just for the people who can afford it. I think of all of the technology CEOs who have had their children like placed in screen-free preschools, it's not just for the rich people who have the opportunity, the gift of Sabbath rest is for everybody. And God has this mission to, um, give everyone both the gift of work and the gift of rest. And, and so we could, we could spend a whole podcast unpacking all of that, but I would say I would really want to leave every listener with this idea that in our relationship to technology, as well as our relationship to the world at large, we need to be finding that rhythm of work and Sabbath, um, that day on which we just kind of bask in God's love. And it may be uncomfortable to find that at first, because everything else is so easy sliding into the expectations that we're being told about every second of every day is so easy, but ultimately it is the best and most Holy thing to rest. Um, and to, yeah. Know that we are truly seen and loved.
Speaker 2 00:43:48 I mean, you, you guys can't see Andy and I are like, we're like nodding the whole time. Um, yes, yes, for sure. Um, and, and I really like, part of me is like, let's just end there. We're just going to cut it and we're going to, we're going to, that's it, that's the best word to end on. And then I'll probably mess it up and say, but on a personal note, but I, I, I, this was kind of a, this is, so this is our Sabbath story a bit. So my husband and I have been married for 17 years. We were really young when we got married. I still had, um, two years left of college. And so, and my husband was in graduate school and it was while we were at university, we were, we met that a bunch of our friends, we mentioned earlier from Chi alpha.
Speaker 2 00:44:40 So we just kind of started like reading the old Testament again, we had all grown up in different church traditions and stuff like that. And we thought, what if we actually tried to do this? Like, what is, this is crazy, right? Like none of us had grown up in this kind of setting at all. Um, and so we were, but we just kind of were like, well, I don't know, like w w well, and we were, we would have these discussions with other people who weren't like quite, you know, in our little small friend group that were crazy enough to try it. Yeah. And they're like, well, what do you mean? Where do you, you know, and it was like, I don't know, let's just give it a shot. Right. Let's just kind of see what happens. And so it was, you know, 20 years ago ish, that we just thought, okay, let's just give this a shot.
Speaker 2 00:45:24 We're all in college or graduate school. Um, and, and we were like, okay. And, and so we, we took a day every week and we're like, okay. So we're gonna really, we're like not going to do homework and we're not going to do like houses, you know, like our chores and work and do our laundry and stuff like that. And you, you said it might be hard to find that rhythm. And at first I'm like, maybe Amy, you can batch this. I don't know if there would be a more difficult time to try to start, like, get off the starting block then in college, you know, pursuing your undergraduate grades. Like, I don't know, it's like, there's so much, right. Like there's so much to do, um, you know, uh, fun stuff on campus, off campus, but homework, like all of the things to just decide, I'm going to do my best to take like 24 hours and just not just like, not with all of it.
Speaker 2 00:46:19 Um, and so we, we continue that we have four kids now. And so I'm really, I just want to tell you, I'm really encouraged as a, to hear you say that was one of the best gifts that you had, you know, your parents, Andy, that you, you and your wife gave to your kids, because, um, it, it's kind of, sometimes it's kind of one of those things where sometimes it feels lazy. I don't know if you, I don't know if you ever feel it's like, sometimes it feels lazy. Sometimes it feels like, what are we doing? You know? And, and we're not super strict in our house. Um, Ruth Haley, Barton has some really wonderful things to say about Sabbath too. I loved reading in the, in the, kind of the spiritual formation vein about that. It kind of re invigorated my love for Sabbath. Um, and in this last year when I read some of her stuff on it, but, um, but it's just, it is a gift.
Speaker 2 00:47:07 And I love to hear you put those words to it, about the generosity and the justice, because you're right. It's something that God gives to everyone. That was one of my favorite passages when he lied, when he lines it out, is your, your maid servants right here. This is intended for everyone, no matter what your social status, no matter what your economy, no matter what your, um, that everyone gets this day without exception to just rest. And so, Amy, I'm so glad you mentioned that because that is it's, it's key. It is. And you're in that chapter in your book really does you're exactly right. Like get ahold of this and kind of look at some of the things that, um, Amy and her family did, and some of the things that you do now, because it really is practical. It doesn't have to be a difficult thing.
Speaker 2 00:47:55 I think, um, a little bit of investment in that really does go a long way and it ends up being kind of cyclical, at least in my experience of kind of the more you do, the more you want to do, you know, the more, the more rest you get kind of the more rest you you want and you, and you desire for that day, you look forward to that time when you're like, it doesn't matter how long my nap is. I can, I can sit in this chair and read all day and no one, you know, everyone else is doing something similar. And so, um, yeah, so it's really, really, really good. Um, everybody grab a copy of this book, I'm going to link it in the show notes for this episode. It is called my tech-wise life, growing up and making choices in a world of devices by Amy crouch and Andy crouch. I have just ruined all of their PR by saying it is not just for teenagers and young adults. I'm 39. And I gleaned so much from this text for my life. So I just encourage everybody to get a copy of it. Thank you so much guys, for being on the show with me. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:49:03 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music, and podcast production by Seth. <inaudible> be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit
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