Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody. I am so glad that you're here today. I am taking a deep breath and Bethany has had some time to do what she talks about in her amazing book and center herself. Before we come on, um, we were just praying and there's a little bit of just like normal, everyday chaos going on here. And so it really was. I hope I get to tell the story during this, uh, interview, but it really was just the perfect time to sit down and finish Bethany's book this morning. Um, it is called from burned out to beloved soul care for wounded healers by Bethany Dearborn Heizer. Hey Bethany.
Speaker 1 00:01:20 Hi, thanks so much for having me on, Oh,
Speaker 0 00:01:22 I'm so thrilled to have you on this morning. And so incredibly thrilled to finish your book, um, today, like right before, right before we came on just an hour or two ago. Um, but can you tell us a little bit, because this is, um, from burnout to beloved soul care for wounded healers, and you talk a little bit in the book about how you, um, relate as an Enneagram to help helper. Um, but you do this professionally. You're not, um, you know, this, isn't just like a casual thing for you. This is your job. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do professionally and then we'll kind of lead into the book from there?
Speaker 1 00:02:03 Sure. Yeah. Currently I work as a director of soul care for an organization called Northwest family life. And it's a network of therapists that are trained specifically in trauma and working with domestic violence and sexual assault. And there's also a home for women who are exiting, um, unsafe environments, including trafficking. And so I get to support the staff and the therapist. So I'm not so much working on the front lines anymore, but I get to support those who are before that for years, I did work at a domestic violence shelter as an advocate and with people in a family support center at a different ministry, as well as those in jail and exiting jail and in recovery. And so I'm a trained social worker. Um, and yet now I get to support those who are working more directly with people. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:02:55 Yeah. But that's, but that's huge because I mean, just in the title of your book from burned out, because I think that, and it may be my imagination, but I feel like, um, so I was in casework years and years ago, my girls are 11 and I worked until five days before they were born actually like super pregnant with twins. You know, on-call doing child welfare calls and then I quit right before, um, right before they were born for us to move to Texas for my husband's job. And the burnout is real, but I feel like in those, in this last, you know, maybe 10 or 15 years, it might be my imagination or maybe I just wasn't paying attention back then, but I feel like the reality of secondary trauma is being studied more and really, um, recognized more in people who have helping professions. And so I know you're kind of like a step away from, you know, kind of where you used to be with direct care, but supporting staff is not just, um, staff support. Like these people that you're working with are also experiencing trauma. Right.
Speaker 1 00:04:02 For sure. Yeah. And it's true. The secondary trauma is definitely more talked about and more known about and given weight too. I would say, um, my first, I mean, I'd heard about it, but I didn't really resonate with it or I thought, you know, I'm good, I'm fine. But I took a class. Um, I think I talked about this in the book about self care for social workers and it was by the author of the book trauma stewardship. And she really helps me understand kind of where nuances of what secondary trauma is about and connect dots for me. Um, cause yeah, it's, it's real in the profession and I think you would think, I would say not just think it, it is real for a lot of people outside of professional work. Um, you know, people of color this year experienced in secondary trauma on a variety of levels, as well as the various shootings that are happening and that, that results in secondary trauma from witnessing it from hearing about it. So it's a collective reality in a lot of ways right now.
Speaker 0 00:04:56 Oh yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. Um, can you, I would like for you to describe the book for us first, maybe, and then if you could share some of your own burnout story and kind of how you, you know, how you got to, to where you are right now, but I'd love for you to describe the book because it's, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 00:05:19 Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, I wrote the book initially just as a compilation of, um, of material that I was preparing for workshops I was leading and then it kind of grew and grew and grew and people kept saying, Oh, this is like, right, this is good. And, and so I just thought initially I was just to kind of self publish this pamphlet and I kept writing and realizing that I wasn't finding what I was needing myself. And also that I was encountering others could benefit from, in terms of this integration of trauma, understanding recovery work, inner healing and spiritual disciplines that are rooted our identity as beloved ones. And so that's what I seek to, to bring together in my book, through telling of my own story, as well as the stories of others. And so there's a vulnerability in it for me, um, because yes, I experienced my own burnout.
Speaker 1 00:06:13 And so I've had to learn the material of this book through the fire of my own experiences. And, and yeah, I, as I kept talking with other people and supporting others and you know, I did actually trainings and in India and in Bolivia with different, um, staff that were working with those, who've been trafficked. And I realized, you know, I'm not alone in this and that we all, there's not shame. Sometimes there's shame in burnout that it's our fault that we're not strong enough or, um, or weak or something. And so I, I realized that, yeah, we, we need to take better care of ourselves so that we can be more present to others, but also because we're worth it because God calls us beloved. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:06:56 Yes. I mean that, um, I shared with you a little earlier, before we started recording and I, hopefully I can tell it without getting quite as emotional now, but by the time I finished your book, I mean that, that thread of belovedness is just woven. So amazingly through the chapters, that by the time I got to the end and I saw that the word I realized that I had been kind of internalizing that, you know, by the time and I thought, Oh, this feels very familiar now. Um, and I think that that's the point, right? Is that, is that, that is that, that, um, part of ourselves that God created us to feel that way, um, would become just part of our identity, right. Part of who we are, you know, when, when someone says brunette, right. I kind of perk up because that's part of, you know, who I am, but this belovedness is so much deeper than that.
Speaker 1 00:07:49 Yeah. And I just, I mean, even I'm leading workshops these days based on this material, and one of the exercises I have people do is a free write exercise. And the prompt is if I were to live 24 seven as though I really were the beloved of God, I would.dot, dot, and just inviting people to reflect, what would it be like to live out of that place? How would things be different? And, you know, we, we know that and we talk about that as followers of Jesus in our, in our heads that we are loved, like God calls us loved, and yet, do we live out of that place? Do we really let that be the core of our identity? And how would that change things? How would we interact with those around us? How would we love differently and take care of ourselves differently knowing that we really are beloved. And so I, yeah, that's definitely my hope is that people would internalize that. Um, and, and experience that as a part of their own identity as they read the book. There's a quote that I include that I really love the hold, the beholder beholding you and smiling. It's my Anthony Mello. Um, and just that that's, God's posture towards us.
Speaker 0 00:08:59 Yeah. I mean, but I think you'll allude to it in the book. This isn't something that came easy for you. Right. Or does it still, but I mean, I don't know, maybe, maybe you can talk about that a little bit, but I'd love if you just shared a little bit of, you know, as much as you feel comfortable with sharing your, um, some of your own burnout story as a, um, as a helping professional. And, um, and really, I think as you, as you talk about that, I feel like, um, those of us who are, are either aren't never have been, or are no longer in those fields, um, there, it resonates, you know, I haven't, I haven't been a professional helper in over a decade. Um, but a lot of what you said resonated, not with my experiences in casework, but my experiences as a person, as a friend and as a neighbor and as a, as a daughter and, um, as a wife and a mother, um, because of the, because of the inter, um, depended ness, this is not a word, but you know how we're interdependent upon one another, right. That, that I, that I hope we get to in this conversation. But do you mind sharing some of that burnout story with us?
Speaker 1 00:10:16 Sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I, so I mentioned, you know, I thought that I was fine or that, um, that I didn't need self care and, you know, self care has kind of become this fad talk of that. It's usually things that we do to ourselves. And so I, you know, I thought I was running, I was, I was getting exercise. I was eating while I was sleeping. I was doing fine. And yeah, I didn't realize the toll that the realities around me were having on me. Um, I was doing ministry work and working at a domestic violence shelter and responding to sexual assault calls at a hospital and organizing around sex trafficking locally, um, and doing a master's in social work and studying. So there's so many different, I was busy and I was also hearing lots of really, um, challenging stories and encountering people who, whose lives were really difficult, um, and were experiencing a lot of violence.
Speaker 1 00:11:13 And so I, I w I remember asking the author actually of trauma stewardship in my class saying, you know, how do you not accumulate trauma? Like I just, I felt like I was just accumulating more and more. And she said, what do you do at the end of your shift? Then whenever you get home, or in the challenge was I was working at a ministry that wasn't, you know, a set shift. It was relational work, as well as the domestic violence shelter. And so there, wasn't always clear boundaries of on and off. And yet when I would get off from the shelter, you know, I said, I had a swing shift, so I'd get off at 11 or midnight and I'd crashed into bed. And she said, no, what are you going to do? Like take a shower, wash your hands, do something physically, not from a spiritual perspective, but just from a psychological kind of cleansing perspective, in some ways, although obviously we're inter dependent and intertwined in those areas.
Speaker 1 00:12:03 So she really encouraged me to kind of create a daily practice, um, that would sustain me. And, and so I tried those things and yet that still wasn't making a difference. And so there was a moment, um, that I talk about in the book when I was meeting with a woman who was, um, I was sharing, I was reading a letter that her daughter had written to her. Um, and her daughter was currently in the immigration detention, and I was translating it for whatever reason she'd written written in English. And so I was translating it into Spanish and the monster just weeping as I'm reading it, because the girl is telling her about her own experience of domestic violence. And the mom says, why do men do this to women? And I just, something just kind of broke open in me and I started sobbing with her.
Speaker 1 00:12:55 Um, and cause it's something that I've been asking myself and just grieving at the violence that I was witnessing. And, you know, I think there's definitely room and even a gift of shedding tears with somebody else and enjoining people in their grief. And yet in that moment, I felt like I wasn't able to be fully present to her, um, in her sorrow. And, and so I left that meeting, knowing that I needed to make some changes and it was like the flood Gates had opened and I just kind of couldn't hold it back. I mean, I just was very teary and I took a week emergency week off, um, mental health week and just remember crying and crying and crying. And, but I wasn't even sure. I mean, it was so out of touch with myself. And so I wasn't even sure what was happening to me. And yet, like we were mentioning earlier, just this, it was this textbook burnout of emotional exhaustion. Um, and I was, I needed to make changes. So I ended up later quitting that job and just making some significant changes, knowing that I needed to, um, to take care of myself in a different way. And yet still, like I said, it's it, wasn't a clear trajectory of recovery onward from that.
Speaker 0 00:14:07 Yeah. I mean, you, when you're, when you talk about like these flood Gates being opened, right. And, and the, the interconnectedness, um, with each other, but with our, with ourselves. Right. I think that, for some reason I, um, had learned is just, you know, as part of my tradition, um, to just kind of compartmentalize like myself kind of from my body, even, um, you know, there are certain things that my body can do and recognizing that, but that being somewhat disconnected from myself from my, from my soul or my emotions. And, um, we have this, maybe you'll appreciate this, especially with the ages of your, that we, um, had this Sesame street DVD that we would watch when we were trying to potty train our kids. Now this has been years, but my husband still brings it up just to laugh about the kids, but we call it Elmo potty.
Speaker 0 00:15:04 I have no idea what the exact title is. But part of this is, um, you know, they're trying to teach Elmo and Grover is telling Elmo that you need to listen to your body. This is the words he, these are the words you use is right. You need to listen to your body, you know, when, and you know, when your body is hungry, you need to listen to it. When it's tired, we need to listen to it. When it needs to go to the restroom, we need to listen to our bodies. And, um, and that phrasing, you know, from these years ago doing potty training, it sounds so ridiculous, but it's like, Oh my goodness, this is like the key to so much of this is listening to our bodies because we are, you know, God made us with bodies and they're not like these, I don't know, just, I think, I think I kind of had compartmentalized it so much where it was like, Oh, my body is secondary or it's dust, or it's, you know, unimportant somehow to my whole self, but it's more than just giving us cues, right?
Speaker 0 00:16:08 Like it gave you, it gave you some cues that day, but it can also like, it just, it just helps us we're interconnected, right? Like you like, you, like the woman said, washing your hands or taking a shower, doing something physical with our bodies can help us spiritually embrace and process and shed, you know, kind of what we need to, what we need to shed. I mean, can you talk about you? Do, I didn't, I didn't know I was gonna go here right now, but can you talk about some of that because you talk about like labyrinths and you know, some of the descent and something, but just maybe give us one example of how soul care can include your body. Maybe not in the way that we might normally think of it. Like you said, do doing something to yourself, like getting a manicure or something like that, but how our bodies are involved.
Speaker 1 00:16:59 I mean, that's what, yeah, I was just kind of alluding to in some ways, is that we can, there's a temptation to separate and say, Oh, this benefits me physically. This benefits me a certain other way. And I had done, I've gone to trainings or workshops and they done, you know, this self-care pie chart and have the different categories of, you know, right. What you're doing in that category of physical and spiritual and emotional intellectual and what you can do to improve yourself in that area. And I was always challenged in that because not in a, just I would get stuck and I would feel like, I don't know, and I'd left feeling kind of like, I'm not doing it well, and I don't really know what else I can do. And, and I realized that there's two things in some ways is one is I think we're more interconnected than not.
Speaker 1 00:17:41 And there's a false dichotomy that we can create by just trying to separate those things. And when, when I go for a run, it like I did this morning and it benefits me physically. Sure. It also benefits me spiritually. It's the way I connect with God. It's a way I kind of slowed down and breathe. Um, it's benefits me emotionally. And I was also say, relationally, I returned to my, the rest of my day and interact with my, I mean, I usually running with a kid in the stroller, but I think I also, it's a moment of a break, um, the kind of playing and interacting and that they're usually pretty happy in the stroller. And, um, I have to have a three-year-old and a one-year-old. And so, so then I, I get to interact with them in a refreshed way as well. Um, so that's one way is I think that we can, we can there's we're multifaceted.
Speaker 1 00:18:32 And so soul care doesn't mean just spiritual care that we're mind, body, soul, spirit, that we're interconnected and there's much, you know, there's a lot more talk about that these days of how, how interrelated we are and how our body does, you know, the book, the body keeps the score, how our body is affected by trauma. Um, and Resmah mannequins book that my grandmother's hands, you notice the toll of Bo of trauma on our body and the way that our body can also benefit views or can heal. And the amazing gift that it is. Um, and then, so that's the one piece. And the other piece I would say is that we really need to do our own inner work, um, in order to make changes. And there's a lot we can say, Oh, I need to make this, do this new year's resolution. And yet, if we don't address the inner beliefs that we have about ourselves, then our narratives, then we're going to make goals and not make any changes.
Speaker 1 00:19:27 And so I've really started, I mean, that was a lot of that. I learned through a relapse prevention program that I was being trained in to walk with others in recovery. And it realizing that we need to do our own inner work. And part of that training process was we had to go through it ourselves. And so I realized, wow, I suppose my own codependency to my work and my own workaholism and the ways that I was completely out of touch with how I was being affected. Um, and what was it, what was going on in me that training has a core tenant that says, you know, our beliefs create our emotions, which drive our behaviors. And so that's been a really helpful reframing for me and permission granting of, you know, don't just seek to change my behavior, but look at what's driving it.
Speaker 0 00:20:12 Yeah. And I love this, um, the picture of the labyrinth of kind of walking around through, um, through that cycle because I have, I was able to speak with, um, I was chatting with Lisa Sharon Harper and we were talking about, um, kind of, it was, for me, it was really cool because as I was reading yours, it was like almost like hers in reverse. And so it was kind of cool, but she was talking about when God is wanting to bring us to a place that is kind of at the center. A lot of times is not a straight trajectory there. Right. It's kind of like a spiral inward. And so we can see that we're getting closer and closer to this place, but we're probably going to circle back around on one or two things that keep us kind of stopped, you know, almost like a little bit of a block, but, but each time we move a little closer because we've learned a little more and so we get closer and closer to that place where he, um, is trying to take us. And when I was reading yours about the labyrinth, I just thought, Oh my goodness, this is so beautiful. Because again, it's like the same, same thing, but, um, but in a different way. So can you talk about that a little bit? That's in the relapse, uh, portion, correct?
Speaker 1 00:21:24 Yeah. I mean, I was, I tell the story of, I was in a labyrinth, it was actually at a silent retreat. Um, that was an Ignation, was that our tree. And so I don't really even remember what that, you know, we were contemplating in that time of the retreat and yeah, I was, as I was walking through and got to the middle and then stood in the middle and I, I saw that there's this temptation you almost, when you look back through the lamp Lambeth, I could almost just walk out. I just have to skip over one little section and just, I could walk straight out. And, and yet that sometimes that's a temptation in our lives. We want the easy route or just, you know, just, I just want to be done with this. I don't want to do this hard in our work.
Speaker 1 00:22:03 Um, and also when I started walking back through, you know, it was one layer out and you, it looked like I was at the same place. And so I I've experienced that in my life is that sometimes I feel like, Oh, I'm still struggling with the same things that I was 10 years ago. Even my, my husband recently joked, you know, I was sharing something. It's like, you know, I, I know a good book for you from burnout to beloved. So I still need to learn best thing. These, you know, the things that I talk about in the book and, and yet I have to trust. And I was experiencing in that moment in the labyrinth that I'm one layer deeper. And so even if I'm encountering these same internal narratives that I have about myself, that there's growth, that God is moving with me in a trajectory, um, and in a deeper way. And so that's a helpful image for me. And as I seek to continue to journey on in my own recovery and healing is that I might come back to that same belief and yet trusting that there's growth that is happening.
Speaker 0 00:23:06 Yeah. It reminds me, um, of this, like the concept of like rip and repair, you know, cause I think that kind of for perfectionists in recovery, like sometimes we don't, we don't really want that. Right. Like when we don't, we don't, we don't want the relapse. Right? Like we don't want to, to have to go back into that or relationally, you know, none of us want to, to hurt someone. Right. But, but when we do the hard work, like you're talking about a repairing that whatever that is, then, then that, that thing becomes stronger and we learn. And, you know, if we have, if it's a relational, the other person will learn and will come out stronger and more wise, um, for the next time. Right. But that's like really messy. So sometimes to have to walk through, um, to have to walk through that part.
Speaker 1 00:23:58 And there's so many things that can keep us down in that, which is what I talk about, whether it's shame and that to pick ourselves up out of those places and to say, I'm going to try it again. Um, and relapse is part of the road to recovery for a lot of people. And so just to have grace on ourselves when we do, Oh, there it is again, that's that belief I have about myself, but yeah. Throwing judgment against ourselves as well.
Speaker 0 00:24:23 Yeah. Cause I think, I think too, I ha I had never, the reason it was helpful for me is because I had never thought, you know, I had the same things, right. Stacks of journals, right. 10 years old and going, are you kidding me? Like, I'm still, I'm still dealing with this, you know, this one thing and it's maybe it's, it's different and hopefully it's, you know, more on the road to healing, but I had never really looked at that in the context of, uh, re uh, addiction, recovery. Like I had never really looked at it. And I think it's, it's easier to see it when there's a substance involved, um, right. Or when it's in someone else's life. Um, but to look at ourselves and say, yeah, but we have these same, these same struggles. Right. And we're kind of going through this similar cycle that you talk about that was so helpful. Um, and to be able to extend ourselves that grace. Right.
Speaker 1 00:25:11 Um, and there's a humanizing in that, that we sure there's people that use substances to deal with their emotions and their realities. And yet we all, you know, anger does a similar thing in us, um, to, to anesthetize emotions and other feelings and sadness and grief. And so there's an stress and busy-ness, you know, there's different coping strategies that we have, but they're just more, societaly accepted to deal with some of the same things.
Speaker 0 00:25:41 Yeah. Yeah. Um, gosh, there's just, um, my mind is kind of going in a few different places. Um, but this, I wanna maybe kind of circle back. I hope we can keep touching on this learning to live in our belovedness. Cause when you're talking about there's a, there's a humanizing to that. Right. And I think that for so many of us, we, you know, there's this kind of this common phrase, like with the way we talk to ourselves, when we talk to someone else that way, um, and most of the time the answer is no right. For a lot of us. So I don't know. Can you talk about that? Like, um, whether you want to talk about it in like, in like the sh the shame cycle or just, you know, how to have that grace, or even just how to lean into that. Um, belovedness and why that's important when it comes to soul care.
Speaker 1 00:26:41 Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in the book I talk about that we are beloved and broken and that to hold those two things together can, can, can invite us to have grace on ourselves when we do make those mistakes or we relapse and to say, yep, I made a mistake and yet I'm still loved. I am beloved. And when we live and move out of that place of being beloved, that I wonder if we can face, you know, don't just what comes at us, but face our own internal struggles from a different place. You know, I've read that a lot of Henry Nowan and that definitely has influenced my, my writing and my, my life. And he talks a lot about that, that we are wounded healers and that we are beloved. And, um, there's a humility that, that requires as well to say that, um, that we need help, that there's an honoring, both recognizing the belovedness and the brokenness saying that I'm worth care and it's okay to receive care.
Speaker 1 00:27:45 And I think, especially for people in helping professions, but also just for all of us, that it, it feels more empowering to help others and receive help, and yet in doing so we're often giving another person the gift of helping us. And we're also saying, Hey, I, I'm part of this human family again, the humanizing and we all are interdependent. We need care from others. And we, we are, we are worth it that we are beloved. So I just am curious more and more about that dance of neutrality. Um, and what does that look like as people who seek to be community with each other and to be brothers and sisters, um, that as we recognize our own belovedness we also are able to see the belovedness of another in a different way.
Speaker 0 00:28:32 So that word is actually the exact word I was thinking is I was kind of reading through that section in your book, is that it's, it's this dance, right? It's this like, it's this beautiful dance. So this morning, um, I was reading through chapter 10 about receiving help. And, um, one of our, um, our neighbors, a friend, um, our sons are friends and they're doing school at home right now today. And, um, she texted me and said, Hey, can your son, you know, come over today and do homework? And sometimes it happens. And I said, well, I really wish he could. Except, you know, I told before we started recording my husband's cars in the shop. And so, um, he took my car to work. And so I was home today with the kids with no vehicle, but we realized this morning too late, that all of my son's schoolwork is in the back of my car.
Speaker 0 00:29:25 It never got unloaded yesterday. And so I said, I had texted her back. I said, goodnight, I wish he could. But, um, he actually doesn't even have any of his schoolwork, so it's probably going to be a late night for him. And, um, and you know, I just kind of left it at that and put, put a couple of <inaudible>. And so anyway, she texted and she, you know, just said, well, where's his office. And, and I, you know, and I'm going, okay, I can feel something coming. So I said, look, it's way up on the highway. Um, listen, he's super quick and he's already done, you know, one subject yesterday in the car, he'll be fine. Um, so a few minutes later, as I'm turning the page, pretty much, you know, to the next chapter she texts and she said, can I drive you, um, to go pick up his, you know, pick up his books?
Speaker 0 00:30:12 And I can not explain to you the discomfort that I was feeling in that moment, you know, just, just as another mom, you know, home feeling, you know, I mean, it's just normal. This is just normal everyday stuff, right. You're you're, you know, if something happens, you have to take your car to the shop, but sitting here going, there's something about me that does not want to receive this help. And there was a little Bernay Brown quote that you put in as says something like, right. We're, we're dependent from the time we born, we're born to the time we die in paraphrasing and maybe a drip, but, but she says like, somewhere in the middle, we begin to believe this lie that weren't independent. Right. We're actually not dependent on one another sometime. And I'm in this middle part of my life where I'm independent, I believe that lie.
Speaker 0 00:30:58 And, um, and so anyways, so I, um, I texted her back and I'm like, okay, you know what, actually, cause I thought she wouldn't offer. She didn't really mean it, you know, and all of this and, and she's a friend. And so I said, you know what? That would be great. Thank you so much. And so my son and I rode with her, I, you know, to my husband's office and we grabbed it. Um, and it was, it was really great, but I, I just tell you, it's not just helping professionals, right. This is a real struggle. And I don't think it's just me, right?
Speaker 1 00:31:32 Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. And I'm, I'm curious what that, what, you know, there's variety for all of us. There's probably different narratives that we hear that affect our ability to receive help. Um, but I think there's definitely an American culture, independent emphasis that says, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, be strong, be capable, don't receive help. And, um, so then we put shame and I think that affects how we see other people we've put shame on receiving help and on ourselves when, when, when one of our positions of, of need in some ways. And even if it's not dramatic need like that, you know, you would have been fine. Right. And yet it gave, in some ways it gave her a gift she wanted to, and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:32:17 If she wanted to, but what was, you know, what was ended up being kind of cool about it? You know, so we, so we got to chit chat in the car and, um, and I told her the story that I just told you, you know, as I was reading this book this morning, there was a chapter on receiving help that I finished right before you texted. And I said, you know, it really just felt like it also felt like a gift to me from the Lord. Right. Of like, this is like really tangible practice moment legs. You can do this, you know, and, and I'm, I'm starting to do that more and more. Um, but I think that in my life, there was almost a rock bottom, you know, as far as receiving help. Um, and I don't want it to be, it doesn't have to be that way because I think it's, God's design. I think it's his community relational design, right. For us to be interconnected in that way.
Speaker 1 00:33:13 Yeah. Yeah. And we have normal, I think we have normal human healthy needs. And I think that's another framework that's been helpful for me to understand it. Um, partly from the nonviolent communication Marshall Rosenberg's work is just saying we have needs and it's not shameful to have needs were created with needs. You know, Jesus also talks about his own art lives out and practices taking care of himself, um, in acknowledging his needs, going way to the mountains to pray and even being willing to receive help from others, whether that's, um, you know, sitting by the side of the well and saying, okay, yeah, sure. Disciples go in and get us food. And I'm just going to stay here and relax, you know, just thinking, what, what is, what's the modeling for us there? Um, not in a prideful way of I'm the leader you need to serve me, but more just in a, I'm willing to receive from you too. I'm willing to, for this to be a mutual relationship. And I think sometimes maybe we can stigmatize or say, Oh, I don't want to be like that. And just being prideful. Um, and yet how do I also be receive in a healthy way from those around me,
Speaker 0 00:34:25 That was a powerful picture for me in the book, um, that, you know, you use some of those examples right now, but just this half a page or so of these just list of the times when Jesus expressed his needs. And when he received from the people around him, you know, um, framing it in that way, which I think is completely appropriate. And I think it's accurate, um, that he expressed his needs and he received from people because you're exactly right. He's modeling. Um, he's modeling that for us. And if we, you know, that's part of us, I think, accepting his humanity, um, that, that was that, that was part of it, you know, um, he stayed at people's houses, right? Like he, he didn't have a, he didn't have a real home, you know, to go to. And so he was dependent on people's hospitality, um, you know, to bring him in and, um, and it was, and he, wasn't afraid to ask for that.
Speaker 0 00:35:34 And, you know, that was something that I've noticed that over the COVID time period when we were all home, right. Um, that was something that, you know, we've lived in this neighborhood like six years or something. And we learned more, um, we had more interaction with our neighbors during the time when we were all home. Um, of course in Texas, the weather was really nice at first. And so we were all just kind of in our front yards, I'm keeping her keeping our distance, but I can't tell you, um, you know, how many times we were able to, you know, I had stuff left on my doorstep or we were able to leave something on someone else's doorstep, you know, just what, you know, someone even just casually expressing a need, you know, um, my neighbor brought me milk and, you know, a couple of weeks later I took my neighbor, you know, two doors down some and, um, but it was a really, even those small things are just really beautiful ways for us to live, um, inside of that community and, and learn because I think we do, especially in the United States culture, I think we have to learn that interdependence because I think we're kind of taught
Speaker 1 00:36:46 Yeah, certainly white American culture. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:50 Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Um, I'm wondering if we can take it from there. Um, too. Yes and no. Um, you know, because you, you talk about there, you know, we're talking a lot about being able to receive help and give help, but we can't always do. We can't always do that. We can't always be, you know, every time a need arises, we can't give, you know, and then, um, and so we have to kind of learn how to, how to say yes and how to say no. And I'd really love for you to talk about the nuance that you talked about in the book. Um, you know, because I think sometimes there are personalities that have a tendency to always say yes, when something comes up, um, there's people who just like, there are people who have the tendency, when, when they're asked, do you need help to always say no. Right, right. Yeah. I think that leads into also when, when someone asks for help to always say yes, but that's not, you know, healthy self care soul care. So can you talk about like in health, some of the nuance to that?
Speaker 1 00:38:05 Yeah. I think just adding on to what you're saying, I think just to, to, aluminate also, I think the trauma exposure, secondary trauma exposure also compounds that it affects our ability to ability to embrace complexity. And so it's easier for us to always say no or to always say yes. And I know that I fluctuated a little bit within that in my own journey. Um, so just the movement towards health is embracing complexity. And what does it look like? And even again, that kindness towards herself as, Oh, am I, is my temptation just to say no, um, out of a place of rudeness or is it because I'm just really like burning out right now and, and I just can't handle anything else. And maybe there's something to listen to in that, um, that if we're at a place of exhaustion that we, and our body's communicating that to us, that we need to slow down and we need to, to say no.
Speaker 1 00:38:57 Um, and yet also are we saying yes, out of a place of exhaustion because it takes too much effort to just to think about it. And I did both things. Um, and so the complexity of discerning a right and helpful response and again, recognizing our own needs and my seeking to meet my need for approval. But by saying, yes, right now, am I seeking to meet my need for success by saying yes, right now? Or am I seeking to love this person? And yes, it's coming at a sacrifice for me, or I'm saying no, and that's coming out a sacrifice for me, um, that by saying no to this person, I'm, I'm not meeting my need for approval. And I'm, I'm, I have a fear of disappointing them. And yet ultimately it's going to be better for myself and for the other person, you know, maybe saying no, or maybe, or let me think about it and saying, you know, I would so love to meet with you right now, and yet I just am not capable to be present.
Speaker 1 00:40:02 Um, so I w can we, can we try it tomorrow instead? Or can, or later this week or whatever, because I want to be able to give you my full presence. I want to be present to whatever you have. And I, I just don't think I was able to have that nuance when I was emotionally exhausted, exhausted, or just running on empty and busy, busy, busy that it takes a certain level of slowing down and of reflection and of creativity and of discernment, and even connecting with God around it and saying, is this something I really need to respond to urgently? Or, you know, do I have the capacity to respond to this? Or maybe God wants to meet their need in a different way outside of us. And then also when we're saying yes, all the time, is this, does that, you know, am I, am I fixing something that, that person's not ready to fix? Or so there's a whole other layer of that conversation too, in terms of codependency, but I just, yeah, it takes again a slowing down to have that level of nuance.
Speaker 0 00:41:07 And I want to go back to, um, you know, to you meeting that need or for, you know, for us to, to connect with God about it. Because I think that, especially for, for those of us who are Christians, for those of us who have the tendency to want to say yes all the time, which is not a bad thing to, to want to help and, and to want to be there in those spaces. Um, can you talk about, cause I think there is the tendency sometimes for us to feel like, well, if I don't do this, they really need this. And if I don't, you know, if I don't do this then X, Y, Z, you know, or will it ever happen or will they get their needs met? Um, can you talk about maybe the, the, the lie inside of that?
Speaker 1 00:42:00 Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of layers, so that one, I think for me, you know, I used to think I loved that God, you know, uh, cause us to be God's hands and feet in this world. And so I'm gonna go out and do things and I think there's a truth to that. And yet again, there's a new one, so that is that God moves outside of us and praise God that God doesn't fully dependent on me, um, that in my desire to love and to walk with other people that God meets them through me and yet also outside of me. Um, and so there's an act of trust in God that we get to live into as we slow down and discern right. And helpful responses that there's a humility in that too. There's a humility of saying like, sure, God sometimes moves through us and prompts us to action.
Speaker 1 00:42:51 And often that's the case. And yet also maybe God wants to use somebody else or maybe there's something else going on. And so not to, to, yeah, just to be prideful that thinking that it's all it does or the stress and the anxiety that can promote that thinking, um, which again, soul care can provide, uh, and daily practices and the slowing down the recognizing, listening to our body, all the pieces that we've been talking about can help us to recognize what our motives are for helping somebody. And are we doing that out of a place of health and of groundedness and God calling us, or we're doing that out of our own need to be helpful. Right. Which is hard to and humbling even to recognize you. I think we often don't like to think about it's because we want to be helpful.
Speaker 0 00:43:41 Right. Because we do, you know, and I think that, so, so a few years ago I was, uh, grabbing coffee with a girlfriend of mine. And, um, she was talking, she was telling me a story about, she had been at a Starbucks, I don't know, a couple of weeks before or something. And there was a man, um, behind her. And she really did feel like God was prompting her to purchase this guy's coffee, um, behind her in line. But you know, at the same time she's kind of going, that sounds awfully silly. I just don't know if that's actually God talking to me and asking me to do that. So she kind of wrestled with it for a minute and, um, and she didn't do it. She didn't, but while she was waiting for her coffee, he ordered and I think it was, I think it was day.
Speaker 0 00:44:32 And so maybe that prompted, maybe had a pin on or something. I don't know. But somehow the cashier realized that he was a veteran and she gave him his coffee for free. And, um, and so she said in that moment, she really learned a couple of things, right. Like she learned first, what we're talking about, which is if she didn't do it, God will still find a way to get it done, like kind of in a blunt way. Right. Um, but also she learned to be more in tuned to the spirit. Um, and that was a lesson for her to say, this really was, you know, the Lord prompting her to do that. Um, but she was kind of, but, but he also gave her the ability when she didn't to look and see that, that he still took care of then you know, what he wanted done in that moment.
Speaker 0 00:45:16 Um, and so I think that that is I reflect on that often. Um, I've also had it happened with, with me where one time, you know, very specifically I was the person who had the need. And when I, I was sharing what had happened to me with someone and this person said, I actually felt the prompting from the spirit to tell you about that. But I thought it was crazy and I didn't listen. And she learned the same thing, you know, God knew that that's what you needed. And so he still found a kind of a roundabout way, you know, for you to get that. Um, but I think it's it all, you know, it goes back to so, so much of that learning, learning to hear God learning, to understand ourselves and learning how to live in community, that all three of those things are connected and all three of those things are really valuable for us to live Holy whereas ourselves, um, with God and with others. Right?
Speaker 1 00:46:14 Yeah. And I think we, we miss out when we don't, when we out of shame or out of fear out of, you know, Oh, that that's, that's embarrassing or whatever, if I step into that, um, that we didn't get to miss, we miss out on what God wants to do in that moment. And so, yeah, I'm definitely not saying we don't, God doesn't work through us. I think that we, we, it's a gift that God chooses to work through us. We get to partner with God and it's a beautiful, amazing thing that God calls it. Jesus calls us friends, you know, I want to be your friends, not your, not my servants. And so I think we get to, we get to partner with God and, and witness God working through us in beautiful ways. And so when we do join in that and respond to those prompts, that might feel kind of embarrassing sometimes that we get to witness that.
Speaker 1 00:47:06 And yeah, also when you said that God moves outside of us. And so I think, yeah, it's a journey that I still seek, to be honest, just listening to need him to, to God and got small promptings, whether it's, Hey, call that person or text that person or whatever it is. And just, you know, I might not have any idea. Why am, I think have all these reasons why that doesn't seem like a good idea or whatever, um, or driving home a certain way, or, you know, I, I share a story in the book about just on a bunch of break and walking around the building. I was working in one way, even though it was a longer way because I felt like I should. And it's like, that seems silly, you know, all the things exactly. But we can tell ourselves that why would I do that? Just need to go back into the office. And I did. And I, I ran into somebody I had literally was, had just been thinking about and wondering how she was doing and was in a hard place. And I just thought, you know, I, I trust that God would have met her and yet I would've missed out on that encounter and experiencing God working through me in that way.
Speaker 0 00:48:06 Yeah. It's, it's beautiful. And it, um, it kind of leads me into the last thing I had, um, in my notes that I was hoping you'd talk about. Um, but, and I think there's some, one of my girlfriends years ago labeled me as a melancholy. And at first I was kind of offended and then I came home and my husband's like, well, duh, you know, but I think that sometimes those of us who lean a little melancholy, um, sometimes have difficulty experiencing the joy. Um, and especially when we see, you know, like, I think in a helping profession, or sometimes it's just our personality, you know, we gravitate some of us gravitate toward the more serious, you know, or toward, um, you know, toward those things that are lamentable. And I think that, um, good night, I, we could have a whole different discussion on limit because I think it's so important and so lost right now. Um, that's the melancholy speaking probably, but, um, but the joy, right? Like, can you talk about your experience a little bit? Um, I don't want you to S to spoil that part of the book necessarily, but just talk about your experience in, um, in learning to lean into joy.
Speaker 1 00:49:23 Yeah, definitely. There's been multiple layers and the ongoing invitation, I think in that. And I mean, I think I used to think that Sarah was the only right response, um, and joy felt frivolous in some ways, or it felt too much in the face of so much suffering and challenges in the world. And, and there's a, there's a truth to that. And there's, there's, uh, also the limitation that God has for us to be with the joy of the Lord is our strength. And so there's, again, nuance and not black and white that how do we be people of joy and of God's love and experience that what Jesus promises of life and life to the full abundant life for us and for all people. And that really God wants me to be fully alive. And so I think that was a reframing for me too, whether it was working at the domestic violence shelter, other places of God's speaking to me through a variety of places.
Speaker 1 00:50:27 Um, and I've constantly, you might have life and life to the full you because of your beloved. And, and so I, you know, I used to go back to the shelter after a weekend and think that I, I felt sheepish about whatever goodness I'd experienced in that weekend. And, you know, people thinking about the woman there who are, have left everything and were fearful for their lives. And how could I say I had, you know, on snowshoeing that weekend and enjoyed the mountains or something. And, and yet when I would downplay myself, you know, it's not that they wanted me to be miserable either. And it actually, when I would say like, Oh, I got to spend time with my, my family and I have like healthy relationship with my parents or something. Um, but it might give them hope and it might give, give them a taste of something that they are richness of life too.
Speaker 1 00:51:20 And so I talk about that. There's not a scarcity of, of joy. And so we can act as though there is a scarcity of that. If I experienced that, that someone else won't, um, have that gift or that I should be a certain way. And, and I look at people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama for that matter. And they have this book called the book of joy and they talk about, you know, they both have experienced so much suffering and I hate there's. So JoVE joy-filled. And so what is, what is that for us as what is the invitation there to hold suffering and joy? Um, and there's a Cleo Gobran CRO, this has the deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. And I used to think like, Oh yeah, okay. This is what's happening. Like more sorrow. It was carving into my being. And any day did I give myself permission to also experience the joy that God has for me? Yeah. You
Speaker 0 00:52:21 Were, it was carving out, but was it
Speaker 1 00:52:24 Failing? Was I loud? Yeah, exactly. And so just recognizing that we need to be filled and we need to be nourished, we need to be sustained and we get to give ourselves the permission to be fully joyful and fully alive. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:39 I loved, I loved that section. It really, it really spoke to me because I have some similar tendencies and, um, and the scarcity was, you know, was, was super that like stood out on the page to me of like, yeah, there's not a scarcity of joy. You know, if I smile and laugh, that doesn't mean the person next to me, doesn't get to smile and laugh, you know, it's contagious. And, um, and it's, and it's a good thing. Um, Bethany, what have, um, what have I left out? Like, what are you, what are you just thinking? Oh, if we just had a few more minutes, I would, I would talk about,
Speaker 1 00:53:17 I guess, for those who aren't listening to be encouraged to not, not think, just try to make a small step of change. That's been a helpful framework for me as well. Is that what is one thing again, not just something to do, but is there a small practice of that I want to integrate into my life, whether that is something I'm not doing, like checking my email right away in the morning. Um, and I, I think it's also this encouragement towards stillness and slowing down that I, I really think maybe it's partly my personality that I can do and be busy and multitask. And, and so maybe for other people, there's a different challenge, but if for those who resonate with that, but in some, yeah, slowing down, we can create space for reflection and for connection with God who leads us to be more of our true selves.
Speaker 1 00:54:14 And there's so many reasons that we might say that's, you know, I don't have time for that five minutes of stillness or 10 minutes of stillness. There's so many things to do. And yet I really come to believe that we're going to face what comes at us in a different way. If we give ourselves that time, literally if it's five minutes for me, cause I, I have two kids and sometimes I, I have a centering prayer app on my phone and set the timer for 10 minutes and I just try to be still and I can feel like I'm productive time. And yet it's not about just being productive. It's about allowing my spouse self space to connect with God and be connected with too. Um, and so I, I just would encourage some, all steps of creating windows of space for reflection and contemplation, um, and grace towards ourselves too, in that journey. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:55:06 I love it. Thank you so much. Um, again, the book is from burned out to beloved soul care for wounded healers. Um, Bethany, where can we, um, out of the book is available everywhere and I'll put a link to that page in the show notes, but are there places we can connect with you more perhaps on social media or anything like that?
Speaker 1 00:55:30 Yeah, I mean, I have, my website is my name Bethany to Dearborn heizer.com and I'm also on Instagram and then Twitter. I have a trauma informed SoulCare Facebook page. Um, it's at trauma informed soul care and I post events as well. There, I send out a monthly newsletter that people can sign up for either through Facebook or on my website. And I actually just led a workshop this past weekend on uncovering our internal narratives and moving towards healing. So people will be welcomed to connect with me and join some of those workshops, especially in this zoom filled season of many opportunities online. So yeah, I, I love walking with others who are seeking to pursue their own healing and recovery and um, speaking belovedness. So those are a variety of ways to connect.
Speaker 0 00:56:20 Awesome. Thank you so much. And we'll have, um, I'll put all of that, the notes for this episode. So they'll just be a click away for you to connect with Bethany and some of those and some of those spaces. And we'll also put, um, Ellis to some of the books and some of the resources that we mentioned that Bethany mentioned in the notes as well. Thank you so much for being with me today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:56:41 Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 0 00:56:46 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
Speaker 2 00:57:01 <inaudible>.
