Episode 334 - Kat Armas

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay, so I am just beyond excited to welcome back Kat Armis to the podcast. We originally talked. I think it's been a few years ago, Kat, is that right? [00:00:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, Iwalita Faith. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's been a few years. I'll link that conversation in the show notes for this one too, if people wanna go back. That's a great book and a conversation as well for people to revisit. But we're here today because we're going to chat about your newest book, Liturgies for Resisting Empire, Seeking Community, Belonging and Peace in a Dehumanizing World. And I think the word that I would. I don't know. One of the words that comes to mind as I'm thinking about how I felt when I was reading this book is it felt really refreshing. Maybe just by way of intro, I'll just share a little bit about how I felt. I. I often end up reading podcast books in the early morning. I mean, you have kids, so you know what it's like. Excuse me. Mine are a little older, but if you can beat people up, you know, like I'm like, I beat people up, but like beat people awake. I'm like, I want timer. It's a race. So I get downstairs, stairs, it's very dark. And so some. There are times when I have a podcast book where it kind of does dual service for me. So, like, I'm reading it for. To prepare for the interview, of course, but I'm also just using it like as my maybe kind of devotional time or something like that. And this was definitely one where that fit the bill for me. And as I was reading it, I appreciated the context that you gave. I hope that we can talk about that a bit more. You know, we both have seminary degrees, but reading this didn't feel like an academic book at all. It's not. And at the same time, what you bring up about the history, mostly the historical context for me felt very needed. It was like if we could all just slow down a minute and kind of think about how did we get here? Especially here Right now, like in 2025 in the US if we could just stop and think, how did we get here? Remember how we got here? I think that'd be really helpful. So anyway, so this book really did that for me, as well as, you know, some of the other folk stories and fables that you tell and the liturgy itself. Anyway, it felt. It felt as much like a devotional to me as it did anything else. And so I'm really grateful for that. It definitely felt like you giving us some of the context we need. But I mean this in the best way possible, but didn't sound preachy at all. Like, it just felt like, hey, guys, we're in this together and this is kind of where we are. So I just want to say that's such good feedback. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:03:38] Speaker A: I just want to say thank you for it and then ask maybe if you could give us a little bit of insight. I'm thinking about how the book is organized, even the language of rejecting certain things and embracing others. Like, where did you. How did you come to that? And why is that kind of language helpful? [00:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for, as I mentioned, that feedback. That's really helpful. I think that's exactly what I wanted to do. I feel like we gotta know where. How we got here. If we want to really seek to change the systems that are around us. It's really helpful to know how these systems seeped into our way of being, our way of thinking from the very beginning. And I think that with something like Empire, which a. Can feel like a buzzword, right? Sort of like Decolonize can feel very buzzy. And so we sort of just say these things without fully understanding what they are. And I think that's something that I really wanted to do. I wanted to give folks, well, let's just get on the same page and sort of understand what we're talking about. And then also, I think Empire can feel so big and nebulous that it's really hard to pinned down. And so I felt like, let's all get on the same page and then let's figure out, you know, how we got to where we are so that we can live into a new imagination, new ways of being. So just wanted to respond to that because I think that's really important. And I'm so glad that you picked up on that. I think that was like a main, you know, goal for me or desire, hope for me. And then as far as the organization of the book, and just as I was dreaming about it, I did want to organize the book around specific ideologies, you know, and it's funny because as I have these conversations, you know, I, I feel like we, we as a, as a society don't like talking too much about ideologies. We want practicality. Tell me what to do to, and I'll do it right. Like, tell me how to decolonize. What's one thing that I could. And writing a book like this that is about ideologies. And, and I, I tried as much as possible, and you can critique your much on that, but I tried to bring everything home to like, this is how we live it out day to day. But they are ideologies. And the reason why I bring up ideologies is because in the story of Empire, ideologies begin as narratives, right? They begin as stories that Empire tells. They begin as narratives in, in history and society. And then those narratives then become these ideologies, and then those ideologies then become systems, and those systems become the way that the world, the way that we understand the world and the way that the world is run and the way that the world works. And so I, I really wanted to focus on these ideologies. And I think it makes some folks uncomfortable because they want to, they want to ask me, so tell me what to do. And I say, no, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Because these ideologies seep into every single person in such unique, personal, distinct ways. And you're going to have to really take stock of your own life in order to begin this resisting and decolonizing journ. You know, we all have different things that we struggle with, different things that we long for, different things, you know, different ways that Empire creeps into our bones, right? I mean, one of the things for me of decolonizing or sort of resisting was wanting a slower life, wanting to get to know the earth, particularly because I have young kids and I, you know, I just felt very convicted, for lack of a better word, to not pass on sort of this, the gospel of hustle to my children. And so we moved out to the woods, right? But that's not everybody's story. That's not everyone. That's not accessible for everyone, you know, So I can't tell you, well, go. You know, I can't tell you exactly what to do. So anyways, I, I wanted to present these ideas, ideologies, and then I use this language of reject and embrace. Well, first of all, I'm not super creative when it comes to titles, so I'm like, what is how can we just like, say what this is, right? Like, I. I'm not one who can, like, you know, sit there and, like, think of something witty. But for me, it was really of rejecting this sort of big, big picture idea of, for example, hustle, or, you know, the, the culture of hustle. And then what can we embrace instead? Because there is another story, right? There is another imagination. And yeah, so I wanted to kind of, hey, this is what we're letting go of and this is what we can embrace, and it's really big and it's really nebulous, but let me try and bring this home for you. And it's going to look different for everyone. So, no, I don't have one practical, you know, but yeah, I think that that is, you know, why I sort of presented that way because there's so much to, to sort of let go of and then there's also so much to embrace. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I really want. I really want you to talk about this a little bit more. This imagination piece, this, you know, that we have. Empire has seeped into our imaginations. And it is, as you say, it touches every aspect of our lives. My first master's degree was in social justice and organizational systems. And so my brain has been trained to think in terms of systems, and it becomes very overwhelming. But I love that I. When you were talking about narratives and ideologies, like, moving towards systems, I'm like, put that in a graphic. Like, I just, you know, I want to be able to kind of see that mapped out all the time, because it really is complex, it really is historical. And so, you know, we don't always think about how Empire is affecting just what we do in our everyday lives or even how we're thinking about what we do in our everyday lives. A lot of it is. Just feels like automation at this point. And, you know, and it's. And it's difficult, though, to kind of separate and sometimes think, how did we get here in this topic of imagination? I'm also wondering if you can also move toward talking about how Empire has affected our theological imaginations, because again, it is an aspect of our lives. But then that opens up a whole. Like all these others, right? But it opens up a whole other place because then that affects how do we live in community? What does our faith look like? What does our relationship with God and ourselves and others look like? And how are we even thinking about the people around us? How are we even thinking about God? You know, I mean, I will just give you one example that just popped into my head right now. But it's like I remember hearing a theologian talk about metaphors for how we talk about God. But in empire, one of those metaphors that we use that may sound different depending upon where we are as king, you know, and so even just something as simple as that word, thinking about God, how what does that look like as empire seeks into our theological imagination. So I've talked too much, but I really would love for you to. To elaborate on. On the imagination piece. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think when talking well, I'll specifically focus, as you mentioned, on empire or imagination and theology. I think there's a lot of things that we can say about that. As I write about in the book, there's been sort of in traditional Christianity, this idea that the Bible is sort of apolitical, right? That the Bible just speaks to the spiritual realities of, you know, the people of God. Right. And the things about Caesar or the things about, you know, whenever that sort of thing is mentioned, it's sort of like a side, you know, it's. Oh, yeah, this is the context. As if we need to know the context, but the political context doesn't seep into the language or, you know, the insight. It's. It's really bizarre if you, if you think about it too long. It's kind of, you know, mental gymnastics. But, yeah, so I, I say that. To say that every single thing that the writers of scripture were writing and thinking about and wrestling with was through the political context that was happening. Right. I mean, even now, right. Anything that you are going to say or think about or talk about, whether you're into politics or not, quote, unquote, into politics, is going to be through the lens of what's happening in the world. Because that's how you understand yourself. That's how we're understanding ourselves as a society, you know, through just the world that we live in. And so the same is true for the biblical writers, right? Even when the biblical writers are imagining heaven or imagining what life would look like, it's always going to be filtered through the lens of empire. I mean, you think about. And this one, you know, it's funny, I was talking to some. I just finished my first sort of leg of my book tour and, you know, one of my friends was like, man, you. Some of the things that you say about the Bible, I was like, you know, because I'm sort of saying that like, hey, the way that John imagines heaven or the way that John imagines the new earth kind of sounds like empire. Sort of dream, you know, like gates of pearl and streets of gold and. And not to say that that's wrong. [00:13:04] Speaker A: It's. [00:13:05] Speaker B: All that I'm trying to say is there was nothing else to compare what a perfect place would look like other than what the emperor's domain would look like, you know, so, yeah, so I say all that to say that so much of what's happening in scripture are folks just imagining with the only tools that they have at their disposal, the only sort of imagination. It's like, you know, 20 years ago, we were saying, oh, in the year 2025, we're gonna have flying cars. You know, it's sort of. We're just imagining this sort of thing based on just what we have. And I think the same is also true when we're. When they're talking, when the writers of scripture are just talking about God. Of course God is going to be a king. Of course, you know, where they're going to use all of this sort of language, because that was how society was structured, and that's how, you know, the empire structured things. And so that happened. And we've sort of taken that and just still continued throughout the centuries to apply that same sort of language to how we talk and how we interact, even though we know our daily real reality doesn't particularly look the same, although, because language is so important, I think we've used all the same language. And, yeah, we sort of do still function in these sort of imperial ways, right, These ideologies, because this is how. And I. I focus specifically on the Roman Empire because it's sort of the empire par excellence, and every other empire since then has modeled itself after Rome. But the way that Rome functioned, right, the way that hierarchy and dualism and violence, right, Militarism, all of these sort of ways of understanding the world and ways of being. And, you know, we still live through those lenses, right? And particularly our theology is seeped in this. You know, we think of Jesus. And I was talking about this recently, how even something like the Incarnation, right, Who. What. That is such a. My goodness, embodied human. I mean, you're talking about giving birth. That is bloody. You're talking about a farm. I live on one that is stinky. I mean, this is just the most humanly, most embodied experience. And yet we talk about it as like Jesus arriving and beginning his mission, you know, on Earth. As if this is the sort of, you know, conquering, you know, thing. [00:15:28] Speaker A: And. [00:15:28] Speaker B: And it's so woven into how we understand, you know, considering not just the Roman Empire, but then how modern colonialism has impacted, you know, the way that personally, those of us who live in the United States, how we engage in the world, how we think about things, right? Arriving and conquering, you know, how we struct, you know, our, our churches and our organizations in these very hierarchical ways. I mean, how we think of education, we master, you know, we master theology. Right. We earn a masters of divinity. I mean, it's so interwoven into everything that we think and talk and, you know, how we understand everything. And, and it comes from a lot of. It comes from just the way that the biblical. And I, I'm going to focus obviously specifically on theology, but the way that the biblical authors wrote and, and, and how they imagine things, and we just sort of have carried that through, you know, carry these ways of understanding the world. We've carried that through. When, you know, you look at Jesus and so much of what Jesus, so much of what the early church is doing is having a conversation with Empire. You know, I no longer say things like Jesus was a feminist or Paul was, you know, I no longer say that because that's just not true. I think Paul and everyone else was kind of, you know, sometimes they were, they supported women and they were super, you know, yeah, like, yeah, we're gonna change the way that Empire runs. And then sometimes they bended their knee toward Empire because that's just the reality of survival. And I think the same is true for us. You know, I work my hardest to not shop from Amazon or not put money in the pockets of billionaires. And then there's times where, you know, I need diapers at 3pm and Amazon tells me they can get it to me in two hours. Right. I mean, that's just the reality of what it means to be a human. And so I think the same was true for the biblical authors. They're wrestling with the same questions we are. Right? They're wrestling what does it mean to belong to God and not Caesar? What does it mean to, you know, live a life of, of communal sharing and instead of the way that Empire thinks about money. And so, yeah, I mean, it's the same sort of wrestlings. And so I think that because going back to how I, you know, began to what I was saying earlier, because we've sort of depoliticized the Bible, historically speaking, we've depoliticized the Bible. So we've said, no, this is only speaking to spirituality. And also, you know, we're still picking up on all of the political jargon and slogan and all of the political stuff and then just applying it to how we understand theology now, right? Like Jesus plundering his enemies and, you know, arriving on a white horse with a sword and all of these things. I mean, our theology is so militaristic. My goodness, if you just stop and think for a second of, like, all the militaristic metaphors and all of these things. I mean, it's really, really wild if you think about it. And if you really sit there and. And even just our regular language, right? We kill it when we're doing good. We bomb something, you know, and we're not do. When. When we ruin it or we shoot ourselves in the foot. I mean, everything. And it's not neutral, right? It's not neutral because, as I like to say, language or, you know, it's sort of. All of these ideologies seep into our language far before they seep into our laws. Right? And I think that's all sort of, you know, part of it. So, anyways, I'll stop talking here because I know I can go on forever. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Kat, I'm so glad you. Thank you for elaborating on that. And I'm so glad you also mentioned the mastery piece, because that has been something I don't. I mean, I've been reflecting on it maybe without really naming it, and then reading Jennings in the context of graduate education helps you reflect on it a little bit more. And it's just like, where did this come from, this master of divinity? I laugh every time I say it. You know, I'm like, it's so ridiculous. I have not mastered any kind of anything, especially not divinity. So can we. You know, I'm like, can we really just talk about even that name, you know, which is. Which is just wildly ridiculous, I think. But this mastery piece, one of the things that you elaborate on in the book, I think it's in your Dualism and Paradox chapter, is that we just have this culture of mastery and control, and it affects everything. Like, it affects how. I would just say it affects. It affects every part of our lives. But it is one of those things that I think it's. It's an undercurrent. It's. It's bubbling under the surface, and we probably don't realize how much it actually affects what we do. The. The other thing that you tie to that, I think, if I'm. If I'm not mistaken, is in that same chapter, you relate it to individual possession, like, rather than or opposed to shared experiences. And I'm wondering If you can talk about that piece, this mastery and control, but also this individualism. Because I think. I mean, we talk about it in a lot in the context of the U.S. like American individualism, but I think it also shows up in our faith quite a bit. You know, I mean, I grew up in a faith that context that definitely was like, it's your personal relationship with God. You know, this is your per. And it's like, okay, and, you know, and what else does that mean? And then this connection to mastery and control. I'm curious if maybe I misread it or if you can, because it made sense, but if you can elaborate on that connection there a little bit because again, all of these things, there are kind of a connect the dots thoughts. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. That was a difficult thing about writing this is how do I. Because so much of these things intertwine. Like, how do I separate them? So. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So the idea of mastery. Well, side note, I have a friend who, she says that she tells people she has a mistress of divinity. Perfect. [00:21:43] Speaker A: I mean, steal that. I love it. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Anyway, so, yeah, so this idea of mastery and control, I mean, it pervades, like, everything that we think about. I mean, you think about the way that we. We talk about grief, right? That we sort of go through these seven stages and then we've sort of mastered grief or we've arrived at some sort of enlightenment point that we no longer, you know, and I think that's with everything, right, that we want to get to a place where we have healed, we've mastered healing, we are now liberated. We, you know, whatever it is, right? And we see things as, again, with this, like, arrive and conquer mentality, ourselves, our faith, our spiritual, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that, again, is an ideology of empire. I mean, that literally comes from people leaving and going to distant lands and, you know, conquering peoples, conquering lands. And that mentality has just per. You know, has completely seeped into just how we engage in the world, particularly our spirituality, Right? Because so much historically of Christianity is about, you know, sort of saying the right things, believing the right things, praying the right prayers so that you can eventually get to this place, right? Heaven. And you're just trying to arrive, that you're just trying to get there, right? And, yeah, it all has to do with mastery and with control and with the idea that faith is sort of this individual possession, right? We possess, as you mentioned, this personal relationship with God. We. Yeah, it's just become something that, like, once we get it right, once we Figure out exactly what it is that we need to do. We. We're here. We got it. We are we. We are the enlightened. And it speaks into. I mean, that's the chapter on dualism and paradox. Because it speaks to this idea that we are. We have, you know, we are the saved and they are the lost. Right? We are the worthy, they are the unworthy. I mean, this is all these ideologies intertwined. And I think it's so incredible. When you look at the New Testament, when you look at the early church, faith was never an individual possession, Right. Like, you didn't possess Jesus in your heart. Like, you didn't have this sort of. No, it was a shared experience. It was all about, you know, you had male and female. You had all of these people. Barbarian, which was, I mean, the epitome of the outsider. You had foreigner and citizen. Citizen. I mean, you had all of these people sharing the same table. Salvation was about presence. Salvation was about literally providing for everyone so that the commute. No one went without, no one was hungry. I mean, this is what salvation. How salvation was lived out, you know, in the early church. And now it's become through, I argue, because of the ideologies. Ideologies of empire, because of how imperial ways of thinking and being have seeped into how we understand ourselves. Now we've seen, or we understand our own religious experiences as possessions, as things that only happen to us. So they're not only individual, but. Yeah, it's like something to conquer. Right. Like you have now conquered, I don't know, evil. Yeah. I mean, you've conquered evil, right? You've sort of like, put Satan in his place. And now Jesus lives there and he is. Has staked his claim on your heart. You know, it really is like all of these sort of. Yeah, these just ideologies that have woven themselves into our theology. But again, spirituality or. Or, you know, Christianity was always about a shared experience. If you look in the Bible, I mean, yes, people had moments of enlightenment, and then what did they do? They would turn around and like. Like the tax collectors, right. Oh, my goodness. Like, what can I do? People would, you know, have conversations with Jesus and be like, now, what's my response to this? And he's like, well, go and, you know, give back all that money or go back into this. You know, it's like, all right, now that you've had a moment of enlightenment and you've. The veil has lifted, or, you know, the illusion, as about in the book, the illusions of empire, now that they have shattered. Now go and do rightly right. Like now go and be anti Empire. Now go do the thing that Empire, the opposite of what Empire would want you to do. So yeah, I think it's just. There's just so much in there and I think that so much of it goes down to this idea of, of conquering, of mastering, of controlling. And if we just remove that ideology. And that's why I said in the beginning, it begins in here, in our hearts, in our minds. Right. If we start there, I think there's so much that would change in our churches and our communities, in all the our family systems. I mean everything so good. [00:26:25] Speaker A: I feel like some of that now see if you can follow my thread here. It's sometimes they're only in my head, so it's totally fine if you can't. But I'm thinking about that individual faith experience and then that was leading me to think about something that you talked about in the this. By the way, I loved the language of this chapter title. I know you said sometimes you have difficulty with that, but I'm like, oh my goodness. Rejecting sameness, embracing wholeness. I just, yeah, I just loved those, that juxtaposition of rejecting sameness and embracing wholeness. But you tell a story about some folks who were doing their best, doing what they really felt like they needed to do in Haiti, some helping with a church, some church communities there. And it just, I thought of that in on the heels of this kind of individualized faith expression, kind of how we view that. And I also loved this brueggemann phrase in this chapter too on rejecting sameness, embracing wholeness, of oppressive conformity. Like that felt like that got me when I read that. So anyway, it's totally cool if you can't follow my thread. Some of them are just me making these weird connections in my brain. But I do think that again, this is the same kinds of context that we're talking about Empire and things like that. So can you talk a little bit about the, the example that you gave? Because it's not a one off. This is happening all the time. [00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So yeah, I, it's funny because I had wanted to. Yeah. Give an example. And one of the main things that I kept thinking about was my time working in Haiti and I kid you not, around the time that, that I was like, like working on these edits, all the talk about Haiti started coming in the, you know, coming about in the news with this administration talking about Haitian immigrants and it was such like a moment of wow, this is not again. Like, this is so intertwined and this is why history matters. Like, this is why it's so important to look back and understand, like why certain people, groups or certain, you know, whatever it is, are, whether it's demonized or whether, you know, there, there's a lot more context than what we really fully understand. And it's funny because I was explaining this to folks, you know, like, as, as I'm listening to these conversations happening, you know, in our cultural atmosphere, climate, whatever, and I'm like telling folks like this is, this is a problem. Like this is a broader thing that has, that began, I mean, generations ago. Yeah. And so I bring up the, the stuff about Haiti because, you know, Haiti is one. It's a very nuanced country and place with a lot of nuanced history. So much of it connected to empire, really, all of it connected to empire, connected to the US connected to colonial missions, you know, movements. And I experienced it firsthand as someone who, you know, a church that I was a part of, a megachurch, was really connected to Haiti and doing, you know, work in Hait. And you know, the, every time I would go or spend time there, you know, I always felt this sort of disconnect between what we were preaching or what we were doing there and what was actually happening on the ground. And I see this in so many ways, like whether it's, you know, with progressive politics or conservative religion. I mean, when I, before my family moved out to the woods, we lived across the street from a low, low income income housing. And there was this woman there that she, her name was. Well, she was, I called her one of our abuelita theologians in our neighborhood. And her and I would always sit there and drink Coke together and we would have conversations about, you know, the, the community and how it's changed. And you know, she was a, an old black woman from the south, you know, and I would talk to her and then I would go online and then I would read all the things that all even progressive, well meaning progressives would say about what, what poor black folks want or think. Right? And then here I am speaking to this abuelita theologian, this woman who is not connected to the Internet, you know, in any sort of way. She's not on threads or Twitter or whatever. And her lived experience is even so wildly different than what, you know, folks, well meaning folks are saying she wants or that she needs or that she thinks or whatever. So I, I think the same is true, you know, when it comes to a lot of well meaning missionaries and again, this is all tied to, you know, colonial ideology. But yeah, my experience as a well meaning missionary who went to Haiti and, you know, we would wear these shirts that said Hope for Haiti, like if we were bringing the sort of hope for them for a country that is steeped in so much political, I mean, so much us, you know, oppression. But yeah, you know, I think that there's oftentimes when it comes to, you know, well meaning missionaries, I think what we're missing is a lot of context. You know, people arrive in Haiti with their Hope for Haiti T shirts, you know, and, and I'm included in this, obviously, you know, I have, I've come, come around. But, you know, I was once a part of this with our well meaning, you know, shirts and our comfortable theology in our comfortable lives. Right. Without any real knowledge of the political realities of the Haitian people, without real knowledge of the way that the US has played just a monumental role in the oppression of the Haitian people. And this is what I wrote about in my first book. I said, you know, Empire convinces us or convinces folks. Empire puts folks in vulnerable positions and then convinces them that they are saving them from their vulnerability. I mean, I'm literally thinking right now about putting tariffs on people and then removing the tariffs and saying, oh, look what I did. Right. I mean, it's the same thing that this is what Empire does. This is the way that it shapes narrative and shapes story and shapes everything. And so I think the same is true. You know, I'm seeing this in Haiti of how, you know, we sort of step onto this island that has this, this extremely complicated and nuanced history with the US and the US has specifically played a role in oppressing this place. But then we show up and we say, hey, we have hope for you. And that is this message that we're going to share with you. A message that you've already heard and you already know about. And chances are, if you believe this message and if you live by it, the way that you live it out is probably closer to what the initial, you know, intent was than what we're offering here. Spirit. In fact, what we're probably offering without realizing that we're offering it is that you conform to the way that we worship, the way that we believe, the way that we sing, the, the ideas that we have, and that's the right way to be right. And this is obviously the history of colonialism, this is the history of missionaries that. I mean, really, the if. And I talk about this in the book, but Bible translation and Missionary societies quite literally exploded at the same time. And it was a way to impose the English language on other peoples. And also, you know, Christianity as like sort of a Western imagination, a Western invention. Right. This is all happened hand in hand. This is why I say that context matters. I mean, this was not, you know, it really was a colonial project, right. To bring the message of Jesus and also the English language and also Western ways of understanding and being and living into the world. Right. And so, yeah, so we show up to these countries with no context, right. Not understanding the political realities and we're just like, hey, you know, we just want to bring you hope. And I remember, you know, going from like, place to place to like, pray for people and bringing these Bibles and, and we'd be like, so what do you know? How can I pray for you? And they would tell us, how about, you know, these actual, tangible, real needs that my country, the country that I'm from and live. Live in and, you know, suppress them or oppress them or took away from them. And I'm saying, how can I help you? And I don't have the ability to offer them what they actually need. And then they'll tell me what they need. And then I'm like, okay, well, here's a Bible. And I remember one story that I share is that I gave a Bible to this one woman and she's like, thanks. Like, I have a million Bibles. Like, I don't need another Bible. What I need is glasses to read my Bibles. Right. And that was like part of the. These conversations and these experiences are part of like, you know, that illusion shattering and the veil lifting and me realizing what in the world am I doing here? You know what I mean? So anyway, yeah, I think that's all. It's all part of it. It's all part of it. This idea of, you know, how we need to conf. How we. We force people to conform by presenting our right way of being. Yeah. And going back to the Brugamon thing, you know, this idea of oppressive conformity, like we want everyone to worship like us and believe like us and, and have the right theology. Right. Because it's about conquering the right beliefs and, and if not, you're not going to arrive at heaven. And, you know, it's all connected. Right. But really what it is is expecting the entire world to conform to our way of understanding and being and seeing. [00:36:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Kat, I have like so many more notes, but I'm realizing where we are on time and I'm wondering this this concept was very intriguing to me. So you refer to Ruby Sales, and you. And. And you cite this idea that empire erodes intimacy. And that is on your chapter on violence and peace, I think, and that just those three words together, empire erodes intimacy. I'm like, I could take that in a million different directions, and it's probably true in a million different ways. But I don't know, what. Maybe. What about that feels maybe most meaningful to you for where we are, like. Like right now in our current culture? [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's. That's precisely what Empire did. Right. I mean, it ripped people from their lands. It ripped people from each other, from their cultures, languages, ways of being. Right. And that is. I mean. Yeah, that's in. It's in and of itself an eroding of intimacy, of connection. Right. Empire doesn't want us to be intimate and connected. It doesn't want, you know, as I talk about in that same chapter about friendship, Right. I. I sort of argue that friendship is, you know, the. Is the enemy of Empire. Right. When we are connected, when we are intimate, when we are. Yeah, just when we are really intertwined, not just with each other, but with the land. Right. When we're. When we're intertwined with creation. I mean, when we have these web. With these webs of relationship, I think that that's where Empire dies. Right? Empire dies when we are committed to doing this work together, when we are committed to taking stock of ourselves so that we can go out and make change in the world. Because, as I keep saying, you cannot, you know, sort of. You can't divest from Empire. You can't change Empire out there if you're not willing to do it in here. Right. If you're not willing to do the uncomfortable, necessary steps in us and you, so that you have richer relationships, so that you have richer friendships, so that your churches are not, you know, redoing the same structures of empire, which, I mean, even those. Even the multicultural churches and the ones that have the best intentions, they still function in hierarchical, dualistic ways of being. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Just that idea that friendship would be. Yeah. Would be something that could counteract. Now I'm thinking about all my words. I'm like. Do I say combat? Do I say, you know, like. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. No, I mean, but that's great. [00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah. But I'm like. But just thinking about how friendship could be something that could counteract Empire, you know, is. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Is. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Is really, really beautiful. Also, just to reiterate what you said about Empire, Empire takes These things from us, even when you started with land and people, and it takes connections away. I think even when maybe we're living in a space where we haven't necessarily our individual self had those things stolen or taken from us, like physically, like other places of the world and other generations. I want to be careful when I say that, but I think. I think. You know what I mean, I would say how much of that has been erased where we almost never had it in the first place? You know, I think, like, you can drive through any. Just as an example. It's like almost every suburb in the US Feels the same, same, you know, it looks the same. It's going to have the same chain stores, it's going to have these same shopping centers. The highways look the same. And it's like. But they're not the same, you know, like, these geographic areas are not the same. I mean, we. We don't. We don't live on a farm. And as you said, everybody's different. But we did just move to a new city and we chose a neighborhood where there's a lot of space around us that. That's preserve. You know, there won't ever be a house or a building or a business in some of these places. And I went for a walk this morning and I was just kind of like, oh, my goodness, we live here. Like, it was just really beautiful. But I was also thinking that takes, like. That takes effort for me to even try to notice that, right? And to somehow, in some really small way, gain a connection again kind of to, you know, where I live and not just the land that I live on, but the people who surround me and, you know, those kinds of things. And Empire not only doesn't encourage that Empire works because those things get removed. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:41:41] Speaker A: It's wild. [00:41:43] Speaker B: No, it's wild. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's the thing with Empire. Like, it has taken from every single one of us, regardless of. I mean, of course, throughout history, there are certainly people that have been targeted and certainly people who have suffered the most under. Under Empire's hand. But this is actually something that Ruby Sales says. You know, she says, just talking about theology, right? She goes, you know, I. We have really good black liberation theology. She's like, what we need is white theology that's going to liberate the white folks. Like white liber. Liberating theology. It's going to liberate the white folks from the way that they are just completely. Yeah, they have completely bought into this illusion, right? And it's this idea, like, of course, you know, the standard theology is white, but it's this idea that, like, you know, we're all under this sort of, you know, illusion. We're all living under the facade, you know, particularly, I think, you know, and you think about this even when it comes of patriarchy and these sort of systems where it's like men suffer under these systems in so many horrific ways. You know, men are some of the loneliest people on the planet, you know, because patriarchy doesn't just affect us as women, it affects them in horrific ways. You know, there is a true loneliness epidemic among men. You know, and so anyways, I say all that to say that, yeah, I mean, Empire takes from every single one of us. And there are some that are suspicious, systemically feel that. Systemically feel the weight of that the most. But then also what I'm arguing, you know, in my first book, Aita Faith, is that, you know, these communities are also the ones that are living into so much beauty and liberation because that's where you experience God the most right through the. In the margins, in. I mean, that's where God really makes God self known. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Kat, I just think that that is. That's a fabulous way to. Yeah. To kind of. To kind of wrap this time up is it feels like a settling thought to again, just kind of come back. Even. Even feels like coming back full circle. It's like, what. In what ways does Empire affect our imagination? And then to think about the legacy not just of the current empires that we're living in, but the. But the legacy of empire over empire over empire and that. That we're living in. In things that have. In places where things have been stolen from people and, And. And how do we just. How do we just keep living in it anyway? I'm at a loss. I'm at a loss for words. I know this whole book really is the answer to this question. So I'm not asking you to preach the whole book again, though. I'm here for it. But I am wondering when folks, folks come to you and you just finished this first leg of your book tour and people are saying, yeah, but what do I do? And I'm not asking you to tell us what do we do? But maybe I'm saying for folks who are going, okay, wait a minute, some of these concepts are new or I haven't really thought about it that way before. What's an encouragement that you offer to people as like kind of a. A. I don't know, like a next step. Like, you know, what, what do you, what do you offer to people by way of encouragement to keep thinking about these things? [00:45:12] Speaker B: Well, definitely read the book that way. Yeah, you can just learn about how, what, what I'm talking about when I say ideologies, how they have seeped into, you know, as we've been talking about, seeped into our lives. And then take stock of your life. Right. Really, you know, as I mentioned earlier, what are your longings, what are your, you know, where do you feel the sort of the tentacles of empire wrapped around you the most? Because again, we're all different, right? And one of the things that I always say is that, you know, empire is so big and so vast and there is just so much, so much, so many things to resist from. There is so much injustice, there's so much happening. And what I like to say that is a little weird, but also I think there's some sort of, there's some kind of liberation in that. Why? Because there's so much we can do, right? There's so much we can do. There is not a shortage of ways to resist. And it, again, it starts with us, it starts within. And also there's so much outward things we can do. There's so many ways that we can change our day to day lives is so many ways that we can resist the way that Empire tells us to understand time or money or our bodies or our relationship with our children. I mean, everything, there's all of that kind of stuff. And then of course, there's all the ways we can vote and all the things that we can do out there, all the, you know, meetings we can attend, all the ways that we can meet the needs in our communities. I mean, there's just a myriad of things to do. And so, you know, I say, first take stock of your life. What is it that you are passionate about that you want to see change the most and then go from there, right? What are ways that you can change Empire within and without? And yeah, I mean, again, there are just a myriad of things to do. So I think that is the sort of, the, the encouraging sort of hopeful thing that there's a lot of us, a lot of us as people and there's a lot of things we can do. And I think that if we commit to the daily, you know, work on ourselves and in and outside of ourselves, I think that we can, you know, sort of unimagine the imagination of empowerment. [00:47:21] Speaker A: I just keep smiling when I'm hearing you say that. There's so much, there's so much that touches so there's so much that we can do. Thank you so much for that. Again this book is called Liturgies for Resisting Empire Seeking Community, Belonging and Peace in a Dehumanizing World. Kat it is a beautiful book. The COVID art that inside every chapter I just found myself dog earing and annotating and it was was just a pleasure to read and it is one that will stick with me as I continue to think about these things. So thank you so much for your book and thanks for being with me today. [00:47:56] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Thank you for reading and yeah for engaging with it and for chatting with me about it. Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Busetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at thatmakestotalsense. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Com. Sam.