Episode 335 - Dorothy Greco

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That Makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. I am sitting here right now with Dorothy Littell Greco. We're getting ready to talk about your book, Dorothy. This one just came out. It's wonderful and amazing, and I have only great things to say about it. It's called for the Love of Uprooting and Healing Misogyny in America. And I want to share a little anecdote with you, Dorothy, before we get started, if it's all right. I mentioned to you prerecord when I was raving about this book, that I read quite a bit for the podcast. I also read because apparently I'm a perpetual student and I just have it out for myself, I guess. But we've been doing this podcast for about six years, and my husband edits and produces the podcast. And he doesn't read every book, obviously, which is actually pretty great because when he listens to the episodes, I get a perspective, you know, from someone who is kind of an outsider in those ways. Occasionally he'll grab a copy off of my shelf of something that I've gotten if he needs something to read. But only once, early in the podcast have I ever asked him specifically to read a book for my benefit. And I have told him this will be the second time. So the first time it was a book called by Chandra Crane called Mixed Blessing. And as a mixed Hispanic woman, I said, could you please read this like it can be one of my Christmas presents. Just read this book, because I think it'll really help you understand a little bit more about me and my lived experiences and that kind of thing. And a few days ago, I said to him the same thing about your book. As we're recording, it's getting close to Christmas time. And I said, seth, would you please read this book as one of your Christmas presents to me? Because I really think the same thing. I'll help you. It'll help you understand some of my lived experiences. I was like, plus, this woman has receipts. So a lot of the things that I knew were probably true from my lived experiences and lived experiences of my friends and family from just, you know, kind of my gut and Then I'm, I'm opening these pages and I'm like, oh my goodness, here are the stats that really back up what I, what I thought to be true. So there's a long winded intro. Just to say thank you. Thank you so much for writing this. Thank you for putting the time in to research it and thank you for sharing it because I think this has already been a resource for me. Obviously, I'm extending that to my family now. I have two girls and two boys who I'm raising and the pages, what's contained in the pages of this book are important for all of us to know and understand better. So thank you so much. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Well, that's, that's wonderful to hear and I hope that the book speaks to your husband. [00:03:45] Speaker A: I think it will. I think it will. He's. He is a pretty, he's pretty great. And I think that this, you know, like you said, anything we can do just to help, just to help ourselves understand each other a little bit better. I've told you how the book has impacted me in some ways, but I'm really curious and I almost never start the podcast this way, but I am so curious to ask this question of you. Why this book? Why now? What was it about this topic that you felt to be. That compelled you to want to put something like this together? And, and maybe who were you aiming for? Like, who was, who's your hoped for audience of this book? [00:04:31] Speaker B: Honestly, this is the book I've always wanted to write. This is, this book represents my life work. I first proposed this idea to my then agent back in was. It was after I had handed my first book in and before I had started writing what became the second book. And as I talk with my agent about it, this was in 2016, her comment was, you know, I don't really think there's a market for that. It's a topic that is just too. It's a third rail topic. And then of course the next. [00:05:07] Speaker A: What do you mean by that? A third rail topic. [00:05:11] Speaker B: So here in Boston, you know, we have metro, what we have actually the oldest metro in the United States. And there's the, the warning, you know, do not touch the third rail where the electricity runs. Right. So if you get too close to that third rail, there's going to be some shocks and some injury. This book is just one of those topics like racism, where it's can be very difficult to have conversations about it because people are defensive. People don't believe that it, it's real. Other people, their lived experiences have been so painful that having those conversations with people who discount it is maddening and re. Traumatizing. So, anyway, she had said, I really don't think there's a market for this. And then, of course, in 2017, me too. Church 2 yeah. So I was kicking myself for not just saying no. I really think this is a good time to write it. And then, you know, Trump was elected, and all the misogyny that began to permeate the culture, that just continues. It's not as if, oh, it stopped. So it's a topic that's very dear to me. I've had a lot of experiences with this. It's a topic that I think the church needs to wrestle with much more than it is. There's simply far too much misogyny, far too much abuse, far too much dismissal and injury that happened to women within church settings. And that's, you know, in writing the book, it was the chapter on the church that made me the angriest, as my husband will attest. I just was so grieved and so angry as I was writing that chapter and doing all the research for it. So it is a topic that just is not. Misogyny is not going away. I do think that as I, you know, I'm in my mid-60s now, and as I look back over my life and see those moments in history where monumental evils fell, and I would put communism in that. You know, I was in Eastern Europe during the time that the Berlin Wall fell. I feel like that was, you know, one indicator of the kingdom of God breaking in in such a way that evil was diminished. Of course, now, you know, with Putin back in, it feels like, well, we've kind of reversed apartheid in South Africa. You know, it was like a window opened, and God sort of invited people in to say, we can do something about this. Do you want to partner with me? That was how it felt in writing this book. God said, you know, not audibly, of course, but there was that sort of prompting from the Holy Spirit, I think you could write this book. Dorothy, do you want to take the assignment? If you don't, no problem. I'll offer it to somebody else, but if you'd like it, I think you could do it. So in saying yes to that, it really did feel like an act of obedience, in many ways, recognizing the problem, feeling like, as a journalist, as a woman in my 60s, I had something to say about it, feel passionately about it, and I really, really have deep, deep hope that things could change and that it's out of all of that that I wrote the book, you also asked, who is it for? I think it's. I would guess it would speak primarily to women who have had experiences with misogyny. It's. I think it would validate. Would help them to say, okay, I'm not crazy. This is a real thing, and I wasn't making this up. And for those folks, both women, there are fewer women who I think would. Would agree with this, but there are men who just think it's not an issue. Misogyny isn't an issue. Like, look at all the rights. Women can vote. So there's a way that they would discount it and then not have any responsibility to change it. And it's those men who are potentially open to seeing how they have perpetuated misogyny who I would love to have read this book so that their eyes could be opened and perhaps their hearts could be broken. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks so much for that, Dorothy. I almost said for women who have experienced misogyny, I'm like, isn't that all of us? I kind of feel like it is. Even if women don't realize that they've experienced it, I think that we have all. Yeah. Had experiences with it in the US I would say this is, you know, this is Misogyny in America. The subtitle. Because we live here. And as you state, this is in. It's in the air that we breathe. Before we get much further, just so that we're all on the same page, could you give us your working definition of misogyny? I was so grateful as a student to find that basically before page one in the book. And so I'd like to kind of. Kind of offer that to our readers as well right now as we. As we continue through the conversation. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I'll just read it. Misogyny is a persistent, insidious belief that men's ideas, wants, needs, and experiences are more important than women's, and that legal, religious, and social systems, as well as intimate relationships, should uphold this principle. This belief system subsequently influences laws, policies, practices, and the ethos of a given culture. It felt important to me to not simply rely on the misogyny is hatred of women definition. It's simply too narrow. And again, men can easily say, well, I have a wife. I love my wife, so therefore, I'm not a misogynist. And overlook the systemic component of misogyny. Because misogyny gets played out individually by acts of men against women and acts of women against women. That happens, too. But it's also so deeply embedded in the culture and in the systems. And that's part of why it's so difficult to uproot it. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I also want to say just up front that you and I are on the same page with this, with this topic where I would say I'm saying, down with misogyny, but I am not saying, and I don't believe you are either. It's pretty clear in the book that the tables should turn entirely. And that definition that you gave of misogyny, we should now just say, well, women's ideas are more important and, you know, all of these kinds of things. You are writing as a. Yes. As a journalist and also as a Christian and as a. Someone who's been in pastoral ministry to recognize that our belief system is that God created men and women to work together and for our ideas to be validated and important and for there to be cooperation and, you know, all these kinds of things. And so it's not that we're advocating, oh, okay, well, we'll just swap it then. Where women are in control. Sometimes I think about, I. I should have looked it up beforehand, but RGB's quote about, well, how many women on the court would be enough, you know, well, nine. Well, it's like nobody. Nobody batted nine when there were nine men and say, well, maybe that maybe a season of nine women wouldn't be too bad. But, like, that's not the goal, is that we just replace everything with power structures where women are the ones who are acting now in this. In this kind of way. But that there would be cooperation between men and women and cooperation in communities of all sorts where there isn't one group who is. Who is dominating. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Right, right. It's one. For me, Christianity is about eliminating hierarchies. You know, you think about the ground at the foot of the cross is level. There are no hierarchies. There are no tears. And what we're after are partnerships of two equal people where we promote mutual flourishing. So there's a sacrificial component of both of us working so that each of us are flourishing. And that doesn't happen in misogyny. Misogyny, the woman is underneath of the man. The woman's role is to support the man and to please him, to not cause him trouble, to obey him in the worst case scenario. And I just don't think that that can be supported biblically. And I don't think it's good for anybody. You know, any time that you have a hierarchy, there's all of this control and control is the oppos opposite of freedom, and it's the opposite of love. And, you know, hence the name of the book. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah, the. The way the book is organized is. Is kind of in different areas where we see the effects of misogyny. So you mentioned the church chapter earlier. There's also a chapter on legal systems and healthcare, on intimate relationships. Because misogyny, as we said, it's just. It just permeates our culture. It. It is the air that we breathe. And so these areas that you mention are areas where we see effects. And, And I will say the book is, Is. Is well researched, as I mentioned. It's got receipts. And so it helps us track how does this effect actually stem from misogyny. One of those areas that I mentioned, and I want to mention up front, because it's something that is. Oh, gosh, it has serious, serious consequences. And we may not be able to see a clear thread until we think about it more deeply, but that is that of healthcare. This was really interesting to me because you share a story that. I'll invite you to share more if you want. But I will tell you personally, I have almost the exact same story, which is. Right, which is that for years and years, I mean, decades, I was suffering with physical symptoms, didn't understand where they were. I kept saying, I'm not making this up. These things are happening when, you know, Internet searching became more available to me, you know, in college and things like that. I'm constantly, like, when I'm feeling bad, I'm searching these symptoms. What's going on? I don't understand it. It feels very mysterious. I had doctors, mostly. I had one man, actually one male doctor, who tried really hard to help me, listened, and had one of the best solutions until I actually got my diagnosis years later. So I do want to give him some pretty serious credit. Otherwise, my experience looked more like what you described. And I would say I went to a female practitioner. Finally, she had me fill out 12 pages of history, something like that. Part of this was she listened to me. Which is something that you mention in the book. Yes, she listened to me. She had the expertise available to her to help connect some dots. And then she sent me out for blood work. So I went to a male rheumatologist and I asked him to order the blood work that my dietitian had suggested. And, you know, because then there's all other issues. Why did she. Couldn't she do it because of insurance, blah, blah, blah, you know, all these other systemic problems that are crazy. And, and when it comes to healthcare. And he looked me in the face and he, and I said, I think the problem is, is gluten for me. And he looked me in the face and he said, oh my goodness, you're real dismissive. The gluten free industry is this multimillion dollar year industry. It's not really bad, da, da, da, da, blah, blah, blah. And he just completely dismissed me, took my blood though, which I was grateful for. And then I happened to get the lab results about a day before his office called, before he called and I saw and I had positive for celiac marker. So I communicated with my dietitian, we made further plans, and then he called me back and he said to me, well, all of those things about, I said about gluten are true, but in your case, it looks like you might actually benefit from avoiding it because your blood work came back positive for celiac. Now, for people who don't know, it's not just that I might benefit from avoiding it, it's that it is the only thing that would benefit me and helping my disease not to progress. So he was dismissive even in, you know, even after seeing the new miracle results. And that's just one anecdote. You have a similar one, but women in general, and I want you to talk about this, but I would say I'm just sharing because I do have this personal experience. We tend to be dismissed inside of the healthcare system. And this is where I'd love for you to go into some of the historical background for why this is. Because it just didn't appear in a vacuum. It's like, oh, in the 21st century in the United States, all of a sudden women are dismissed or they have a higher, you know, you know, their maternal death rate is high and, you know, all of these kinds of things. There's a historical background stemming largely from misogyny that makes this be the case. Yeah. [00:18:53] Speaker B: And I'm sorry that you share that experience with me. You know, like, what? It would have been so meaningful if he had called you the next day and apologized. Right. Said, gosh, you know, I'm so sorry. I reflected on how dismissive I was and please forgive me, like, wouldn't that have have spoken volumes to you that that has not happened much. And I will say, you know, I want to be clear. There are some absolutely amazing, sacrificial, kind, thoughtful doctors and nurses and practitioners out there. So I'm by no means saying that the whole industry is misogynistic. But as you mentioned, the underpinnings are there. In Dr. Karen Tang's book, It's Not Hysteria, she writes, history provides the philosophical framework for of modern day medical systems. And if you go way back to Hippocrates, you know, he was born approximately 460 BCE. He had all of these innovative health approaches that still influence our modern day medical system. And he as well as so many other men during that time, believed that women were weaker, slower, smaller, less efficient versions of the male ideal. You know, I think if they could have figured out how to live without women, they would have. Although, you know, then there's the sex component, which obviously. Yeah, that's another topic entirely. That's chapter six. We're in chapter two right now. So the belief was that women's main role was to bear children. And clearly they didn't understand women's bodies. You know, they couldn't. Dissection was illegal. They didn't have the kind of information that we have today. But what they believed was that it was the uterus that caused pretty much every single kind of disease that was out there, even psychological diseases, diseases like epilepsy. The belief was that it was because the woman wasn't pregnant and she should get pregnant and that would solve all of her problems, which, you know, I mean, during that time, I can't imagine the kind of, the lack of care that women received. And you just keep pushing that forward to the 1800s and even early 1900s in the United States where men, husbands, brothers, fathers could institutionalize their sisters, wives, etc. If they displayed some kind of mental or emotional quote unquote problem. You know, when we look back now, it seems clear that for many of these women, they may have had depression, they may have had epilepsy, and yet the, the husbands could institutionalize them in these horrid places where there was no chance of them getting out. There was a book that came out a couple years ago, the Woman who Could Not Keep Silent. And it is, it is staggering the, the story that she tells. A woman who was institutionalized by her husband when she disagreed with him theologically. And what she learned when she got into this asylum was that most of the women were like her, were completely sane. It was just a way for men to shut them up and to get them out of the way. And it was horrifying. It's absolutely horrifying when you think about that. So there's that component and then there is all the fact that as you mentioned, oftentimes when women go to the er, if they have heart attack symptoms, they're more likely to be sent upstairs for a psych eval than they are to be tested for legitimate symptoms for heart attack, which then, of course, can lead to further injury. If that is being dismissed, women are less likely to get the kind of pain meds that they need than men. And that's, it's much worse for women of color. They are dismissed even more. So there's just so many, so many places, so many ways in the medical system that women have been devalued and continue to be devalued. It's changing. I mean, it is changing, but it is very slow. And many of us are still, still dealing with the effects of being ignored or the very real harm that we faced at being mistreated. [00:23:11] Speaker A: You bring out something that is another thread throughout the book. So this is. Thank you. It's like we can see some of these problems in healthcare, but let's look, as you mentioned, the result of a legacy. I mean, this is, these are, these are things that happen not just in the U.S. but as you mentioned way, way back. These are, these are ancient misogynistic beliefs and problems that still, that still persist. And even with these historical scenarios that you just shared of, like being able to have a woman committed, like, if we think about the long thread of history, this is a very short time ago where this was legal and not just legal, but was a, was a relatively common practice. And that, I think that time, the time frame for me, was one thing that stood out in the book. It seems like almost every chapter you're sharing either laws or practices or policies or just even in culture where these clearly misogynistic scenarios were only very recently made illegal or overturned. [00:24:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:34] Speaker A: And it is dumbfounding to me. And then I would say, and even still, it's its progress, but we still have ways to go. And then I'll say this as a footnote you mentioned earlier. Well, I love women. I love my wife. Women have rights, like the right to vote. And I would say, and there are some, maybe we call them fringe, but some even in Christian communities in the US Today who are, who would, if they had it their way, revoke some of those rights. And so this progress is not a linear. No, it's not a linear scenario. [00:25:08] Speaker B: No. And even the gosh, I forget which state it is that is trying to lower the right to age to marry, I should have looked that up before. But the fact that in many states it's still far too young, it really should be at least 18 countrywide and it's not. It's just one indication what's happening with the Epstein files that we see that it doesn't really. We don't really care as a country what happens to girls. We don't as long as they're serving men. And it is horrifying to realize that, to recognize as these women are coming forward, courageously coming forward, and they're being dismissed. And, yeah, I mean, that. We could talk about that, but that may not be the direction you want to go, but that's just another indicator of how little we as a country care about women and girls. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Well, I think it. I think it's. I think it's worth at least a. At least a short detour. I mean, I have. I have teenage daughters. And I didn't look up the quote either, because I didn't. Didn't anticipate us going there. But. But with the anchor, the journalist or whoever she was, who recently talked about, regarding the Epstein files, like, oh, well, I mean, they were 15, and it's like, 15 is a child. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:30] Speaker A: So, like, why are we not all protesting and saying 15 is a child? And so you're correct. You're saying, and I hate, pains me. Like, it gives me a visceral reaction when I hear you say what I think is true, which is just that we don't really care as a society what happens to women or girls as long as they're serving men. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. It is horrifying. It's horrifying. Her comments were so staggeringly awful that I couldn't believe that she wasn't simply fired. But obviously that's, you know, and the. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Lack of response to her comments was equally as. As staggering to me. Like, you said, she wasn't fired, but also, it just kind of got that those comments even got dismissed. And we'd say, where. Where are we? What are we doing? That. That reminds me of what we were talking about, these recent. Recent changes. I am what some affectionately refer to as a geriatric millennial. That's my generation. My husband's Gen X. And so as I'm reading some of these stats, I'm looking at this one in my notes. 1974, when women could open their own bank accounts. [00:27:56] Speaker B: Yes. It's remarkable, isn't it? [00:27:59] Speaker A: That is so stupid. Like, I just can't. I just can't. Even the folks who listen to the podcast will be sick of me quoting this. But. But I will. I will share it briefly for. For you, for context, Indigenous activist author Mark Charles Has a quote that lives in my head rent free about the US and the original context I heard him say it in was in the context of women making less on the dollar than men for equal work, which we'll get to in this conversation, I hope. And he says when we see things like that in the United States, we should not be surprised because in Mark Charles's words, the Constitution is working. So we shouldn't be shocked by this because our Constitution was written by white land owning men, he points out, for white land owning men. So similar to what you just said, as long as it's serving men. Right. So written by white landowning men for white landowning men. So when we see statistics like that, or I would say when we see the receipts in your book, we shouldn't be surprised by that because this is where we live. The Constitution is working in your words. It's in the air that we breathe. This is how for, for me, because I've studied, you know, systems in some of my graduate work, I say this is how the systems are set up. The systems are set up to advantage white landowning men and everyone else. In this case, women are disadvantaged. And one of those places is really 200 years after we become, we become country, is when our country decides that it's going to be okay to allow women to have control over their own money. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, it's staggering. And that goes back to coverture, right? Which is something that often, it rarely gets talked about, but it was a principle that was developed in Europe, primarily in the England area, in back in the 14, 1500s. I mean, it's really, really old. And it essentially, the concept is once a woman agrees to marry that she gives up all of her rights to her husband and that her husband, and this is in the original document, her husband subsumes her. So she becomes, you know, it's kind of taking the concept of becoming one, which is scriptural and very mysterious and very rich and, and convoluting, ruining it, you know, saying that she is now just her husband. And as a result of that, you know, women did not have the right to vote. They did not have the right to make financial decisions. That's part of why men could rape their wives with impunity, because how can you rape legally? How could you rape yourself? That was, you know, which again, you look at that and you just think, that is so skewed. That is not about justice, that is about privileging men. So that concept got woven into the US form of government and though there were no specific written laws that had the word coverture in them, the concepts of it were all part of our culture. And as you mentioned, the financial aspect was just one of those many ways. Rape was not outlawed in all the states in the United States until I think the 1990s in intermarital rape. So I mean, what do you make of that? You know, it's, it's misogyny. It's not about women making sure women are protected or flourish. It's about making sure that men are entitled and get what they want. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah, you have, you have a whole chapter on sexualized violence. And I'm not sure just personally how much time I want to, to spend in that space, but I say that, say that because I know it's sensitive in general, it'll be sensitive for listeners, but reading it, I made a note because I had just seen a reel on social media of a female comic and she was making some similar points to what you made. And she, but she was making them, of course, in her, in her own art form. And what she did was she was kind of picks on, you know, points out a person in the audience like standup comics sometimes do. And she calls on a man and the question that she has is this, what is the worst thing? You know, and it's all light hearted, right? She's like, what is the worst thing you can imagine happening to you on a first date? And she calls the, on the man, maybe it's a blind date, maybe it's a first date, whatever. And he says, oh my gosh, I could spill food on my shirt, you know, and, and stain and stain my shirt and I'd be embarrassed and, you know, all these things and the audience is laughing. [00:33:07] Speaker B: I know where this is going, right? [00:33:09] Speaker A: Of course. Because I had in my head, like, that's not my answer, right? As a woman, that's not my answer. And she, you know, calls on a woman and she says, well, what's, what's the worst thing you can imagine happening to you on a first date or a blind date? And she immediately, without skipping a beat, says, I could get murdered. And, and I'm like, yeah, I mean, my, my, I had two answers. I could get raped or murdered, correct? Yeah, I mean, and, and I'm not, not going on dates anymore. I've been married for over 20 years. But as you mentioned, I would say intramarital rape, we have to say that again, was not illegal in all states until, I think you're right, 1993 or something like that. Is what I think I remember from your book. But you also point out, and something that I have felt often is because I have. I used to say run. Now I say jog. But I have. I have always run in. Inside my city, from when we lived, you know, when I lived in Oklahoma to when I was. From when I was in high school through now. You know, I just went on a run this weekend and, you know, I. I saw a tweet several years ago. I showed my husband. I'm like, this is how I feel. You know, she's like, as a female running, if you see a man coming towards you and he says something like, nice, nice night, isn't it? You really have no way of knowing whether he was just being polite or whether he's about. He's planning his attack on you. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Like, there's no way. We are so vulnerable and feel so vulnerable as women in so many everyday activities because of the present misogyny all around us. My husband runs, too, and he has never shared with me that he's ever had an experience where he has felt the same kind of vulnerability that I feel every time I go out just to exercise. [00:35:06] Speaker B: It's maddening and it's sad and it's tragic. Right. That we. That is part of our headspace 24 7. Unless we're home with the door locked. And even then, there are moments where I have felt afraid and the notion that so many men would say, you know, we need. We need to protect our women, and we need to make sure that there's this sort of macho, bravado Persona that men take on. But the reality is, well, what they're needing to protect women from is other men. So what if instead of being so focused on protecting women like you were talking to other men about why they shouldn't feel so entitled to women's bodies and why they need to control their sexuality and why they need to control their tongue when they cat call women out on public spaces. Wouldn't that be a better use of your time and your energy to help eradicate misogyny so that women are really safe? That, to me, makes absolute sense, but for some reason, that doesn't have a. [00:36:15] Speaker A: Whole lot of traction, you know, Okay, I said I wasn't going to go there very much, and I wasn't necessarily planning on hitting this one either. But we've already talked about Epstein, so let's go ahead and talk about what this looks like with Trump as our current president. If you're okay going there for just a second. Because I will say kind of two things on that. Number one, wow, it sure is hard to ask people to. I don't think this is an excuse. I'm just kind of saying maybe culturally there's a pressure or societally there might be people who feel a pressure to just blatantly go against the kind of culture that our president is actively trying to encourage and help create by his actions, by his words that are clearly misogynistic, violent towards women. His actions have been that way, and it's. It's pretty continual. So it's. That's. I think people should. But it's a hard ask. I would also say when you said, mentioned way earlier in the conversation, that there are many women who are acting in misogynistic ways towards other women. And I will just say, for. For me, one of the ways that I. That I kind of feel this and I kind of observe it is when women are so wholeheartedly supportive of the president, of his actions, of his words, of his policies, and that feels. There's a bit of betrayal I feel in that from other women. Because what I want to say is, can you not see this? You know, like, I think I ask myself these weird questions, like, if we worked together and this was our boss and he was just kind of a jerk, would you. Would you be so gung ho towards him? I mean, maybe. Maybe they would be. Maybe they wouldn't be. You know, what. Gosh, what if. What if one of the women he was demeaning was your daughter or your sister or you, you know, how. How would you respond in. In that situation? Or, you know, do these certain things that you agree with really override? You know, some of these other things that to me feel like. Like very, very problematic and very. Have proven, I think, so far to be very influential in how our country is operating, not just policy wise, but just the boldness. People are off. I'm talking about the boldness. You know, he's xenophobic, he's racist, he's, you know, all these things and misogynistic. And now this boldness for. For that to happen in public spaces is now out there in a. In a different way than maybe it was before. [00:39:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I think whenever a man at the top of any kind of organization and, you know, think about Trump, whether we like it or not, is one of the most powerful men in the world right now. Whenever those men behave badly, whether it's towards women, towards people of color, towards members of the LGBT community, what they signal is, hey, guys, you can do this and get away with that. And I think that that's been happening. I think that there is an uptick in misogyny. It's not just that we're more aware of it, that people understand it more. I think it's happening more. And part of why it's happening more is because the person at the top is saying, I can do this and get away with it. So, you know, go for it, guys. That. That is. That's crude. But I think that that is part of what's happening right now. And as you mentioned, historically, this is how Trump has treated women. You know, the fact that he had an affair when Melania, it was like, two months after she gave birth, then that's just one that we know about, right? It's clear that he does not value women in the way that God would have him value women. The Access Hollywood tapes, when that first came out, I remember thinking, well, surely the people who are, my friends, who are Christians will be outraged. Surely they will be offended. Surely they will speak up about this. But in fact, the opposite was true, is that they defended him, and they said, well, you know, he's a baby Christian, and we all have to have grace for people who are just beginning their faith journey. And I think, okay, so we're talking about 10 years later, at this point, at what time period does one stop becoming a baby Christian? Like, can we just say, I don't think he is a Christian because he is not modeling anything that is like Jesus. You also mentioned the word betrayal with regard to women and women who perpetuate misogyny. I think that that's a great term to use, because that is how it feels. You know, we have our sisters who we think should understand, should get this, should be our allies, and yet they are choosing to perpetuate misogyny by staying proximate to the men in power. And that's. That's what they get from it, right? They get that whiff of power, that sense of, I have a place, I'm important. And some of it, you know, let's be honest, it's how we are taught as. As girls and women. We are taught that our value is connected intimately to the men that we're with. And so if we're with men, a man who is powerful, therefore, we are worth more. So I have some shred of sympathy and understanding for why women would make this choice, but at the same time, it does feel cruel. I think when women choose to make those kind of comments, you know, Epstein's sidekick, like, it's incomprehensible to me how another woman could be involved in trafficking girls. But she did. She was, and she benefited from it. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm. Thanks for kind of going there. It feels really like a dark place, but, you know, it all. It often feels like a dark place for me when I get the breaking news alerts on my watch, too. So there you go. But I. So many of these things are, they're so complex and there's, there's, they're hard to talk about. So thanks for being a partner with me in that. I, I want to go maybe one more place before I ask you to talk about kind of where you end the book is, which is like some, some hope and healing, you know, some direction. That's right. It's. It's not, it's not all. But I, I will say I feel like on, on this particular podcast with both of our backgrounds, it would feel like kind of a loss to not at least touch on the, the topics inside of the church chapter. You and I have had similar experiences again in those, in those places. I remember one of the first times I was asked to preach. I was asked, asked to preach. And you talk a little bit about that. I'll say nuance to give the benefit of the doubt of some of those term that terminology when women are asked to stand behind the pulpit and share. But I was asked to preach in a church whose tradition generally does not allow women to do so. And so that felt very honoring ish, because I wish that all women were asked to do that in that tradition. But then also it felt confusing because inside of that tradition, even though I was being asked to preach, I was not allowed to stand behind the pulpit. So in that church building, the pulpit was elevated by a couple of steps, which often it is, you know, for, for no other reason except for, you know, so people could see. And in this situation, when I preached, I preached from the floor at the front of the church, basically behind a music stand, essentially. And so I was told that was going to be the case before I went. It was one of my first assignments. And so I. Or first invitations, I should say. So I was pretty eager to get to do it. But I did survey some women pastors and women leaders who also preached in my circle to kind of ask them how they felt about it and asked them with the assumption, and it was a correct one, that they had had similar experiences. And I got different answers, you know, depending upon the women and their different experiences in different circumstances. You know, one of the Women I talked to was like, nope, if somebody asked me to do that, there is absolutely no way I would show up and I would tell them why. You know, if I'm going to preach, you're. I'm going to preach like everyone else preaches in this church, which is behind the pulpit. You know, all this kind of stuff. Another woman was like, yeah, yeah. Kind of like, you win some, you lose some. You know, it's up to you. But I've been in situations like that before where I've gone ahead and taken it, but maybe I didn't go back or maybe I did and we have a conversation about it or whatever. And it just. It varied. But. But the point is that I don't. And I've limited experience. You know, I'm only in my 40s. I've only been in church since I was born, but I have, you know, limited experiences where I don't ever remember hearing about a man who was asked to preach but had some amount of limitations put on him like that, including. And this is kind of a soapbox that I bet my family wishes I would get off of, including men preaching and being employed as pastors who have no theological education. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:46:29] Speaker A: So there's one thing. But I would also say to connect it to what we were just talking about. I grew up in a setting where women not just agreed or went along with these kinds of teachings that women can't. And then you fill in the blank, xyz. Everything from can't preach to can't mow the lawn, but advocated for it and also taught this as something that was biblical and godly and right. And even in some of the circles I've been a part of as much as to say it would be sinful if a woman were to do what I have done many times, which is preach in front of a church. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I can see it because if you read through both the Old Testament and the New Testament, there are places that if one reads simply that passage, it could feel like. Well, absolutely. Like I couldn't be in church unless I have a head covering and I should never wear jewelry or makeup when I'm in church. Or, you know, for me to be an elder or to speak in front of the church is absolutely wrong based on some of the. Some of the passages. But that's. Again, this is my opinion, and I understand how people may not agree with me. I think if we read the full arc of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, we see specifically how did Jesus treat women. And Jesus broke So many cultural barriers, he broke so many religious barriers in terms of how he treated women, how he interacted with women, how he honored women. And I think if more men and more people in specifically the church, loved women, the ways that Jesus loved women, misogyny would fall. But instead, I think what happens is they're committed to upholding patriarchal customs. They're committed to being the ones in power, to being the ones who make decisions. And as a result of that, women get marginalized. You know, you can't, you really can't read through Scripture, the New Testament, and say that women are not supposed to lead or not supposed to preach because it's in there. You know, Priscilla Junia, there's so many different places where it's to going clear that women were leaders in the New Testament church. And it wasn't until several hundred years later that those rights and those privileges got rescinded and then men again took over as the people who were sanctioned to make all the decisions and to be all the leaders. But if you read the New Testament carefully, you will see that women were released, women were blessed, women were encouraged to take leadership roles. And gosh, that's what, you know, I'd love to see us as a church be at the forefront of dismantling misogyny rather than being at the forefront of enforcing misogyny. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I just want to also clarify, or maybe not clarify, but say quickly that in that chapter, what you report on is not just what we've talked about, leadership positions or preaching or things like that. This is. And I want to point to Andrew Bowman, who you mention in the book, and I've interviewed him for the podcast. So I'm going to kind of point to his book as well, because you and he both go into quite a lot of detail about women's experiences with misogyny that are outside of those kind of very specific roles that we just mentioned. And I think it's important, important to say that here that many of the same ways that we talked about in, in these other, regarding these other topics, those ways of misogyny expressing are true in the church as well. So you, you know, mentioned with health care, like, could they, could they have done away with women, you know, because of the, and how they view their bodies, you know, as being, as being less then or not, you know, normal, like a male, like the male form that, you know, we went back to Hippocrates, we could go back to Tertullian with the same kinds of messaging for women that came from the ancient Worlds through. Now, you know, we could talk about Genesis and the beauty that we see in Genesis 1, but then how Genesis 3 ends up being weaponized against, you know, women. And you. You talk about that in the book as well. And so there is an environment of misogyny, and not all, but in many American church spaces as well, that pervades well beyond just whether or not a woman can stand behind a pulpit or whether or not a woman can have the official title of pastor. I will name this because my. The tradition I grew up in was the Southern Baptist Convention. And, you know, one. One of the things that you. That you say in the book, I'm kind of chuckling because it's like, well, that's true. Is, you know, when many people are probably familiar with the SBC and the abuse scandals that were made very public recently and in the last several years, and it was like, oh, well, the response from the leadership was like, we can't possibly, you know, keep this record. Like, we just. We just can't know, you know, which churches this is happening in. There's a lot of protection of the men who were doing the, you know, abusive practices and all these kinds of things. But then it's like you mentioned. Oh, but. But they have no problem keeping a record of which churches are allowing women to serve in certain roles and excommunicating those organizations from those churches from. From the organization. And so it's like, okay, well, yeah, what. What is actually going on here? Well, it's because, yeah, misogyny is. Is being persistent in these spaces. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Yeah, they're protecting the men. Right. The comment that they couldn't possibly keep a database of all these offenders, but they were keeping a database. They actually did have a record of men who were abusing, and they wouldn't share it. That was the issue. Like, they chose to protect the men who were abusers rather than the children and the. Than the women who were abused and that we see again and again and again in the world. But honestly, I think I would not want to be those men when they come face to face with Jesus at the end of their life, because, honestly, I hope that they are excoriated. I hope that they are rebuked in such a way that they fall on their faces and weep. And wouldn't it be great if they do that before the end of their life? Wouldn't it be great if they understand I have misrepresented Jesus to these women. I have taken advantage of them in a way that is egregious. And I am so deeply grieved. That would be really meaningful. And I think it would be better for the men if they could, you know, recognize the ways that they have harmed women in the name of God. But will that happen? I, I don't know. I think it will take a move of God, honestly, for that to happen in any kind of widespread way. What happened in the SBC is similar to what happened in the Catholic Church, right? There was institutional cover up. It happened again and again. People were moved from parish to perish so that nobody would find out. And meanwhile, more and more people are abused by the same individual. It's not, it's most of the time, it's not just a one off. Abusers abuse again and again until they get caught. And you know, the fact that that's, that is happening in the church as we speak, I mean, isn't it, doesn't it feel like every other week some major disclosure happens and we learn like, oh yeah, the person who was the leader of that megachurch has also had child pornography on his computer or has also abused a number of teenage girls. I mean, it doesn't stop. It's just week after week after week that we learn this. [00:54:45] Speaker A: And it's not only the women who are physical victims who are affected by that. We're just saying misrepresenting Jesus. It's like those of us who are watching and who are in communities like that and see the COVID ups and see the protection, we're being taught something about Jesus, about the love of God, about, you know, our value, about what, you know, what men, it's okay for them to get away with. We're being taught that by how the leadership responds, not just by the fact that the abuse is taking place, but about how the leadership responds to that. You know, like I, I think, yeah, it's just, it's, it's unbearable to think about how many girls and women are being shaped and formed in their faith lives to believe, really things that I, you know, believed growing up, which was that I was less than, which was that I wasn't as smart or as capable or as, as strong or as worthy as the men around me. Not based on any kind of character issue for either one of us, myself or the boys or men around me, but just by the fact that I was female, you know, just by the fact that I was born female, I learned that I was ontologically inferior. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Yes. And that's a setup for abuse. Right. If you are taught that you're underneath the man, if you are taught that the man has authority. If you are taught that your body and your sexuality is. Is unimportant or is less than a man's, then it's just a total setup for women to be taken advantage of and abused. And that is what happens. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Dorothy. Wow. We've gone. We've gone to some places. I mean, this. This topic is. Is hard. Like you said, it's a third rail. I appreciate you teaching me that phrase. It's a third rail topic. There has been some electricity today, and we are not without hope. We are not incapable. None of us, men or women, are incapable of being healed and transformed and transformed from the wounds of that misogyny has inflicted on. On men and women. So I know we don't have a ton of time left, but if you could share just some of the things that you share near the end of the book about that hope for healing and what, you know, help us use our imaginations for what that might look like. [00:57:39] Speaker B: I think it is important to remember that misogyny harms men as well. One of the things I talk about in the first chapter and then return to in chapter eight on healing is how misogyny limits or constrains men's emotions. So men can be angry, but if they display a more vulnerable or tender side, they can really be mocked. And again, I think the current administration, the ways that they have called, called other men, I won't use the words very pejorative terms because they've been empathetic. The. The challenge that has been put forth about how sinful empathy is, that limits men. That means that they can't develop into their full selves. That means that the nurture that their children need or their partners need gets clipped. Any man who doesn't fit the typical stereotype of the, you know, idealized Western masculine human being will feel less than and question themselves. So it's important for men to realize, like, if you help diminish misogyny, you're going to benefit from it too. It's not just the women. We're all going to benefit if misogyny falls. I just wanted to, you know, point that out in terms of healing. A big part of why I wanted to write this book was to name the ways that we have been harmed because we can't heal from. From the wounds that we have and we can't fix things unless we name them. So talking about it is really important, having conversations in and of itself. If you're with somebody who really listens to you and who is able to be empathetic with you. That can bring healing. One of the stories I tell is with a pastor to BT anyabwile, who is. You know, he's a pretty well known. He's an author, he's a speaker. He pastors a church down in D.C. d.C. And he had been part of several situations where Beth Moore had been a speaker. And he was party to the condescending remarks that people made and the ways that people rolled their eyes and dismissed her. He didn't do it himself, but he then read a piece that she had written on her website where she talked openly for the first time about how hard it has been for her as a woman to be in these spaces with men who dismiss her. And when Tabiti read that, the Holy Spirit really broke in and it cut him. And he realized by my being silent, I have been complicit. And so he wrote Beth Moore a letter which the Gospel Coalition published, in which he acknowledged this was wrong. I'm so sorry. Would you forgive me? That kind of empathy, when men can enter into that space and get in touch with how their words or their actions or their lack of words or lack of actions have harmed women, I think that's deeply meaningful. I remember when I first read his article, I just wept because I thought, I so want other men to do this. I want them to be willing to be humble and to be willing to admit my actions have harmed women. And I'm grieved by that. That's a really important step. For those of us who have been harmed by misogyny, obviously it looks different, like we will need to grieve, we'll need to lament in the context of being in a community, you know, grieving, I think, is more of a personal, individual thing where lamenting happens in the context of community, where we can cry and have other people around us to validate our pain. It's something that we don't do in the United States very well. At least the white church doesn't do it. I think the black church is much better at it, to acknowledge the pain, to speak about the pain, to speak about the ways that misogyny has made us small, has encouraged us to be silent. When the call in our lives is to speak up, the call in our lives is to preach. So it's acknowledging the ways that we've been hurt. Moving towards the cross, what does it look like to forgive? And that's such a difficult topic because in many ways, again, you know, in a patriarchal system where misogyny is practiced. What men often want is for women to forgive quickly, to forgive publicly, to take responsibility almost for what's happened to them, as opposed to saying no. This has to be led by the survivor. When the survivor is ready to forgive, the survivor will forgive, and the survivor can then speak out forgiveness if they so choose. So it's a much more, I think, organic and tender process than we often talk about it in the church. But at the same time, I do think that the Lord calls all of us to forgive, and that is hard work. You know, it's particularly hard work if the person who wounded us has never acknowledged, what I did to you was wrong. If the church system has never approached the survivors to say, we wronged you. We, as an institution, wrong Jew. It's much, much more difficult. And to some extent, I wonder, you know, can we really get the full measure of forgiveness in those situations? I don't know. I think we do as much work as we can do, and then, you know, we move towards each other. We begin to say, well, what would it look like to trust? What would it look like to embark on a partnership where a man and a woman work together to bring the fullness of the image of God into whatever situation, whether it's a business situation, a marriage situation, parenting, or in the church? And those are risky, you know, for those of us who have been really harmed by misogyny, the notion of learning to trust again requires a lot of discernment, a lot of wisdom, and it is. It is risky. It is risky for us. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think it's helpful to use our imaginations in that way and to think about times when we have seen that happen. We've seen it displayed, as you mentioned. It gives us hope. Thank you so much again for joining me, for talking about this, for writing this book. I am grateful for it. Now, I, too, kind of Wish, oh, maybe 10 years ago, but at the same time, I look at myself and I say, I don't know if I would have been the audience 10 years ago that I am today. And so, yeah, so I'm grateful for that right now. Again, the book is called for the Love of Uprooting and Healing Misogyny in America by my guest, Dorothy Littell Greco. Thank you again so much for everything. [01:04:34] Speaker B: Thank you for having me on. I appreciate the conversation. [01:04:38] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit us at thatmakestotalsense.sam.