Episode 353 - Adriel Booker

[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice. Practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Well, I'm so thrilled, Adriel, to be here with you. It's. I have interviewed Australian authors before. I know you're not Australian, but you're living in Australia, so I don't know how you would identify yourself, but it is not. It is not morning time. Well, it is morning time. It's not my morning time there for you. I'm having a cup of coffee and I doubt that you are. Tell us what time it really is while we're recording. [00:01:11] Speaker B: It is. It is 12:13, 12, 14:00am oh, my gosh. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Oh, wait a minute. Why is there off? Okay, I'm gonna try to educate myself. Can you help me? [00:01:23] Speaker B: It's Friday morning, so. Hello from teacher. [00:01:26] Speaker A: There's. Because I know from the Future, but there's 30 minutes. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's Australia. We've got. I just live in a strange time zone that's like only a half an hour jog from the one before it. [00:01:39] Speaker A: What? [00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. For real? [00:01:43] Speaker A: That's wild. I don't. I've never heard of that. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah, we've got. I mean, our population, our land mass is so huge and our population is. Is relatively small, you know, considering the land mass. So I think it's also taken into consideration the population. You don't want these tiny pockets of people with lots of different. So look, I don't actually know the history of why they did what they. That's wild. [00:02:11] Speaker A: I just never heard of that before. I'm just so used to, you know, when we. I work a lot with folks in California and we just say like on the hour, you know, we're going to meet on this hour or we're going to be sure because we're five minutes to the hour. So we got to make sure we're ending. [00:02:23] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Okay. Sorry. That was just like. I wasn't expecting a 30 minute. I wasn't expecting a 30 minute difference, but here we are. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Hi, from. [00:02:30] Speaker B: And also, I am Australian. So yes, I'm not Australian, obviously, and I'm not even born in Australia, but I am a dual citizen, so I grew up in Oregon. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Fantastic. [00:02:40] Speaker B: And I moved here, though, in my early 20s, so I think I've just crossed over the living here longer than I ever lived in the States, which is interesting. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Wow. [00:02:50] Speaker B: But I'll never lose the accent because it's baked in from childhood. [00:02:53] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. I love it. I love it so much. Well, thanks for joining me from the future, from Australia that this book was so wonderful. I feel like I'm already kind of like, diving in my head of like, I'm on kind of this one side and you're on this other side. And we're going to talk about all these liminal space spaces today, but this book that I just finished is called Tethered to the Quiet Kindness of God in Crisis, Change, and the Spaces in Between. Adriel, this book really ministered to me, and I just want to say thank you for that, because it is so hard to talk about these. These things. Crisis, change, liminality. And the best way I can describe it, kind of as I'm talking, to think here with this sometimes is dangerous for me, is that this book felt a lot like the ministry of a chaplain. I'll explain what I mean a little bit. We don't know each other, but you are familiar with what readers might be going through. So just like a chaplain, you know, comes in to a crisis situation, to a transition situation, a situation where people might be living in liminality and they may not have a relationship beforehand, like a pastor or someone like that, or counselor, therapist, but a chaplain can kind of come into those spaces and [00:04:37] Speaker B: offer [00:04:38] Speaker A: a presence, you know, offer kindness and wisdom and truths that people need to be reminded of and do that all in a really loving and vulnerable way. And so I just want to thank you for that because I recognize as someone who hates all of these things, Change, crisis, the feeling, liminality. You know, I have friends who love change, and I'm like, I'm just not her. But as someone who finds those things really, really difficult, and I struggle through those every time they come into my life. I just found this to be really valuable. And I hope that I continue to see it as. As a friend and a. And a tool. So I just want to say I recognize that's hard and that I think you did it really well in this book. So thank you for that. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. My. My husband, we both been in ministry for many years. We're not at the moment, but we were for 23 years or something. And people would always joke about my husband, we weren't in. We weren't in church ministry. We were in different ministry. But people would call him Pastor Ryan because he has such a pastoral heart. And no one would call me that because I'm not generally, like, I'm not like my husband and that he really loves to come alongside people and help them one on one through stuff. But I. I do feel a sense of pastoral heart, but I do it through writing and speaking more than the kind of one on one. And so to me, for you to say that, that it feels like a chaplain coming alongside is just such a wonderful compliment because I want it to feel intimate. I want people to feel like it's just me coming alongside just them, even though I might not do that the same way if we were in person. But I do want that and that is my heart. So I love, I love that you got that feeling out of it. So thank you for sharing that, Alexis. [00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I. Absolutely. I want to start by asking you to share one of the things that really brought that feeling to the surface for me. At the beginning of the book, we just talked about it's God's quiet kindness in those places that are really difficult. And you shared. I don't want to say that it was a hilarious story because it was a frightening story, but it brought up so much in me that it was like you're watching a movie and you're like, I don't know whether to laugh or to cry or to be scared. Scared or to be, you know, feel suspenseful. I'm not really sure, but it was. That's. I'm like, maybe it was like a flabbergasting story. Maybe it's like kind of like a better word where I was like, I don't really know what to do with this. You tell your story of. I am assuming this is the only time you've done this. Adriel, I don't. Did you ever go back out and skydive? [00:07:41] Speaker B: Heck no. [00:07:43] Speaker A: This was the only time that you have ever done this. But would you share that story and kind of how that set the framework for the rest of what you talk about in the book? [00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny because I think often, so many times writers, like, we approach our work, we kind of have our, like, opening story that we know how it's going to set the stage. And I didn't for this book, Like, I fully worked backwards and went, I don't know how to open this book. Like, I just don't know what. Yeah, the story is. And I knew I wanted to use a personal story, and I can't remember the day or the moment that it sort of occurred to me, but I thought, this is it, this is the story. So I was 25. It was actually my 25th birthday, and I had always wanted to go skydiving. Like, the thought of that just sounded so epic to me. I love an adventure. You know, I was very, like, I was very, as a young person, especially very spontaneous and that sort of thing. So I had actually organized this whole group of us. We were going skydiving on my 25th. So I'd actually just been in Australia for maybe a year and a half by that point. So I was still kind of new to Australia. But we found this skydiving place and it was just this beautiful kind of bush setting, like outback type setting. And, you know, you do the whole prep thing on the ground and they walk you through how to do it. You're going to be strapped, you know, tandem to an instructor, of course. So they're the ones that really know what they're doing, and you just kind of follow instructions and do what you're told and have an amazing experience. Well, I was going first out of the group just because everyone was like, it's your birthday, you get to go first, you know. And so I was so excited. And we went up and of course I was jittery nervous, like the adrenaline pumping, you know, I was very excited, but that doesn't mean I wasn't afraid as well. I was totally afraid, but I was more excited than afraid. So you jump out of the plane and like, I. I don't think I ever really considered what it would feel like to free fall like that quickly up in the sky. And so the pressure of it really caught me by surprise. Like, I think I was just naive to it. Maybe you're like, yeah, of course it would be like that, but I was naive to it. But the pressure of it is so crazy. I just remember, like, my. All of my skin just flapping like this as you fall just a little, you know, and it's not like that first kind of pitch out of the plane. Jump out of the plane. Actually, you don't even jump. You just lean forward, which is. Almost feels scary, or you just kind of lean and then you tumble out. And so, yeah, this first. I don't even know, like, I don't know if it's minutes or what it is, but that first, the free fall, you're going, like, I should know this because I wrote it in the book, but I can't remember it now. I think it's something like 100 kilometers an hour. Like it's very fast and I really should have that detail in my mind. So note to self, do that before I talk about this story next time. But you're going very, very fast. And then basically what happens is like there's, there's your main parachute, but there's a small one that opens first which actually provides drag to slow you from that free fall to where the main parachute opens. And there's a technical name for it, which I also don't remember because I had to research that when I put it in the book because I don't know technical things like that. But the little technical. The mechanism that opens to slow the drag so that you don't have that really forceful hard opening malfunctioned on my parachute. And so basically, I mean, it wasn't the main parachute that malfunctioned, but it was, it was the, the one that slows you to a drag. And you know, the way I, I pull this, this is like my party story. Like when someone's like, hey, tell us something about us. You know, you know, about yourself. You don't know. I'm like, I almost died sky diving once and I loved open like that. Which is sort of half true. It's true, but it's not. I mean, I didn't really almost die, but. But I could have like if, if I wasn't strapped to that guy or if something else happened. But the, yeah. So the, the first mechanism didn't work, but then the parachute opened like as it should have, which he opened next. But the force was so hard from that however many kilometers an hour. I just saw you. Were you looking it up? [00:12:23] Speaker A: I was trying to, but I was. But I want to pay attention. [00:12:26] Speaker B: It's like they're going so fast and it just, it's slammed and it's like. The best way I could describe it is like, you know, if you've been in a car wreck, which I have like just that slamming on of brakes where you're so jolted. And I was jolted so hard that. And I was very like thin as a young woman. Like, I was, you know, very slight frame, had a big guy strapped to my back. And the pressure of it, because I'm on, you know, the instructors in the back on the top. And so the pressure of that hard opening, like the harness actually broke my ribs and like knocked the wind out of me, knocked me unconscious. And like the force. This is how I Can describe the force. It was so hard that when I did finally get to the bottom, it took the goggles off. Like my little contact lenses were like stuck to the back of the goggle frames. They had popped out of my eyeballs. I don't know how that's possible. Like I don't understand, but that's what happened. But I kind of woke up on that slow descent with him. He had my wrists in his hands and he was hitting me with my hands, you know, saying, who's the president? Wake up. What year is it? What's your name? You know, kind of yelling at me like that. And I was just in and out of consciousness for the, the, the way home. And I guess I realized like for me, I didn't care about the jumping out of the plane. Like that adrenaline, like I would have happily skipped that free fall part. To me that wasn't appealing at all. But I was so excited for that like peaceful drift where you know, I'd be looking out on the landscape. I had my 25 year old self, had romanticized it. I was going to have this epic experience where I'm like at one with nature, at one with God. Like it's just going to be this incredible life epiphany, you know. And instead it was like I was just jolted into like pain, blackout, wouldn't see, you know, couldn't breathe and. Yeah, so I guess then getting down to the bottom at the time I was like, I want my money back and I want to voucher. I want to like redo this experience and do it again, like redeem it. But I never did. They gave me the voucher. I never went back. I was too chicken, I was too traumatized. But yeah, and I realized that sometimes like when we, when we hit, when we hit a crisis, when we hit a, you know, a major change in our life, some kind of shift, it might be an identity shift, spiritual crisis, it might be a loss, grief, a huge job change. You know, it could be any number of things. And of course we're going to experience that as a jolt. Like of course. But I think then we often sort of hope or feel that we're more on the other side of that jolt, that then like we'll get it figured out as we sort of find our bearings and land. And you know, for me it wasn't like that at all. It was in and out of consciousness. What in the world just happened. Can't find my footing. Don't even know how to describe like what I just went through. And I Think that's probably for most of us, a more accurate experience of coming out the other side of crisis change or these weird, ambiguous, like, middle spaces is, you know, we kind of. Maybe the dust has settled after whatever it is that splayed your heart open, but then we're left going, okay, now what? Like, who am I now? Like, I don't. I don't recognize myself anymore. My life feels different. I feel like I'm on the way to somewhere, but I don't really know where. But I'm not going to go back to where I was. Like, everything just feels hard and. Yeah. And so this phrase that I've been carrying with me, you know, through writing this book through before I started writing it, tethered to hope. I sort of thought of that as this, like, really beautiful, like, peaceful thing of being tethered to hope and cradled in God's kindness and all this stuff. And, you know, it's. Sometimes it just felt like I was hanging on for dear life and like, thank God that someone else has me tethered because I couldn't hold. I didn't know how to operate the shoot. I didn't know what I was doing. I could not land that thing if I tried. You know, didn't matter how carefully I paid attention to the safety briefing. Like, if something had happened to him instead of me, I would have been screwed. You know, thank God it, like, happened to me and not him. Like, he was never unconscious. He didn't, you know, he was fine. It was my little frame that. That took the impact and. But thank God for that. Thank. Thank God the expert was the one, you know, guiding me out of that experience. So, yeah, that's my little. That's my little party story. True story. Oh, my gosh. [00:17:28] Speaker A: I. Yeah, it just gave me this image of God when I was reading it. And I picked because I. In the way you describe it, I imagined the instructor in my head, you know, I mean, he has a. He has a frame and a body and a. And a face and, you know, all of this and even an outfit, you know, and. And I'm like, how funny to have that image of God as this, like, skydiving instructor. But it really was, as you describe it in this analogy, so helpful and that being tethered to hope doesn't. Yeah. Doesn't often look like this kind of, like, beautiful, angelic, like, peaceful winged thing. It sometimes is like, you know, okay, this is for me, but like, this image of God holding my wrist, like, slapping myself in the face, like, okay, all Right. Like, you got this. You know, it's like that is. [00:18:21] Speaker B: It's. [00:18:22] Speaker A: It's. It's harsh sometimes. Like, it's. It's as you describe. It's. There are these blows there. You just feel in and out of consciousness. It's. It's tough. And I think even for people. I don't know, I'm guessing, but I think even for people who. Who really enjoy, you know, change or transition times and all that, it's not that it's not hard. You know, I don't think that it's. It's not hard for those folks. It's hard. I think it's hard for all of us. And we have to find something, you know, this. [00:18:56] Speaker B: This hope to add to that. Alexis, like the. Even people that enjoy change when the change is unwanted. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:08] Speaker B: When the change is made for you. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:10] Speaker B: With your consent. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Even people that like change are going to struggle with that, you know? [00:19:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:16] Speaker B: And I. And I do think that I. I tend to like change, but I like it less as I get older. Like, I have to admit that. I don't like to admit that, but it's true. I like it less as I get older. But. But even for me, you know, I recognize, like, there's certain changes in my own life that have been as a result of my decision or, you know, my husband and I's decisions, and they've been good changes, changes that we have believed in, felt, God led us into, felt were necessary, right timing, yada, yada. And they still were incredibly hard, you know, and I think we need to name that, too, that sometimes it can feel like we shouldn't struggle with the change or with this transition because we chose it, you know, or because, hey, God led us into it. And God's not going to give us, quote, more than we can handle, which is a load of BS, really, but, you know, I think we have to be willing to name that, actually. Like, change can just be really hard whether we initiated it or not. But even when we initiate it and it's the right thing, it can still just be really difficult. [00:20:33] Speaker A: No, you're. You're exactly right. And I. I've named it. I know this about myself. I don't love change. I don't love transition. I don't love any of those things. And we had major transition last year, and that was something my husband and I reflected on. We. We are kind of peas in a pod in that way. And. And we just, you know, both said that was one of the hardest things for us is that we had no agency, you know, and then we realized then we're making family decisions. And then on top of that, then our kids have no agency. You know, it's like they kind of get no agency twice, you know, with, with that kind of thing. And it is, it is very tough. I want to talk about the, the contact lenses and the analogy that you give there in just a minute, but I, I will say the transition part for me. I. My husband and I were walking the dog last night and yeah, we were just talking. We're kind of, we're. We're kind of on the other side of some of these transitions now. And my husband named something like that about me. And I said, you're right, because I hate a road trip. Um, and, and even him, like, he's, he's. He just came back from a, a work trip where they drove, and I'm like, this is too long. You should have just flown. Like it's, you know, and he's like, no, if it's, if it's, if it's the point where it's kind of six and one half dozen of another, you know, he's like, I'm always gonna drive. And I'm like, I know. And I'm always gonna want to fly, like every time, because I just want to, to be there. And I know this about me and I know how much that is in, like, every part of my life, basically. And, and we have friends who would do it, you know, before they had kids, when they were just single, if it was just two of them or now with, you know, a load of kids in the car who will take on purpose, cross country road trips. This is how they vacation. They'll spread it out, you know, they'll do. I'm like, this sounds awful to me. Like, just absolutely awful to me. And part of that is, you know, probably, if my parents are listening, all of the road trips that we used to take back and forth when I was growing up. But also, I just think I just know that about myself and, and, and it doesn't. It. I don't think it's a good or bad thing necessarily, but I recognize that that's why transition is so hard for me, is because I just want to be at the point place. And I had a mentor ask me at one point when I was at a. At a kind of a turning point, and he said, do you think this is a point A to point B place, or do you think this is more a season of transition? And I balked at the Phrase season of transition. Because I'm like season implied, as it has shown to be, that this would be a drawn out thing. This wasn't just going to be, you know, something, something short necessarily. And I said I wouldn't have named it unless you asked me that question. But now that you asked me that question, I do think it's a season of transition and I hate that. But. And we'll talk about this, you get this later in the book. But naming it became really important for me on that journey to name, okay, this is a season of transition. I don't really know what it's going to look like. And I think in part, now coming back to the contact lenses, I think I want you to talk about it, but I'll say for me in this point, I had had an ab perspective. I'm here and then I'm there. And that's just kind of how I wanted it to be. But to change that perspective to a season of transition, even though I didn't love that, was really helpful. And you talk about your contact lenses being popped out of your goggles. A, what kind of force? But also B, what did that help you learn about these times, these crises, moments, these spaces of liminality, these kinds of change and how you navigate those? [00:24:48] Speaker B: I mean, I'm not sure if you're getting at a specific point from that story, so feel free to redirect me back to the question. But I think what it, what that triggers for me is, is just thinking about like when your vision is when your perspective is shifted or changed, you know, necessarily sometimes what I found is, is that, you know, you, to go with the metaphor, your eyes don't automatically readjust straight away. Like it takes some time. You know, we all know what it's like to sort of have someone turn the lights out really quickly and you just can't see anything. But if you wake up in the middle of the night and the lights are out, you can see when you open your eyes, you know, you can see faintly. And so there is that kind of period of just, yeah. Having a transition to what is the new perspective? Like, what, what do I have to work with here? But your other senses as well. I'm not sure like, how far you've read into the books. I know that you've only just recently received it, but there's another section in the book where I actually tell the story of a good friend of mine, my friend Steve. And he's, he's written a beautiful book called Walking in the Dark. He lost his son. He and his wife lost their son when he was in his. Around 20 years old. It was a really tragic accident. And he tells it in this book that he writes about. He tells this story of taking his four sons. So this was back before Chase passed away, taking his four sons up this hike. And I love the story because the way he tells it. And I'm from Oregon, central Oregon, so it's mountain country. So they've taken them up to the mountains and the weather turned. They were going to camp overnight. Weather turned. You know, he was in this really precarious place, going, do I proceed, Like, I do know this path? I've been up many times. Or do we retreat? You know, like, what. What is the safe option here? He's got his kids to think of, you know, and it was this real rite of passage for their youngest, who's turning 12. And so they're having this really special time. He decides to go for it, and they kind of hunker down. And he has this beautiful time where he talks about, like, just not being able to see. There was no visibility, but what they could hear, you know, in that place of no visibility. And it immediately triggered me to my. Like, one of my favorite childhood movies, which was this thriller with Audrey Hepburn in it called Wait till Dark. Dark, like some in the 60s sometime. And she's blind, and there's these drug smugglers and they're, you know, trying to get their property back. And the whole movie takes place in the dark because that's her superpower. You know, they're limited in the dark, but she's not. And so, yeah, it's this really suspenseful, you know, kind of thing. And I just. I always think. Think of that, like, okay, when the lights go out, like, metaphorically in our lives, we've all had those experiences. Like, maybe some. Maybe there's times when we do struggle a lot to just adjust our vision, but actually, like, our vision's not going to be the thing to help us in that season. It might be our hearing. Like, it might be that God sharpens our hearing instead, or our sense of touch or, you know, whatever. Like, you could take the metaphor, but I think you understand what I'm saying. And so, you know, circling back to the question about the context popping out, like, what does that teach you? I think for me, it's just that thing of, like, your perspective necessarily will shift, and that can be frightening and disarming, disorienting, all those things. But it also sometimes is really necessary, and particularly if you're going through, you know, a faith crisis. Like, sometimes God just. Just even leads us into seasons where we're in the dark or we're in the wilderness or, or, you know, maybe someone else led us there. Like, maybe something terrible happened to us, but for whatever reason, we're there. And our perspective necessarily has to change in order for us to sort of live through to the other side of it. And that can feel so alarming when you're in the middle of it. But I think the kindness of God in those moments or in those seasons is that there's always other ways that we can perceive God if we're willing to sort of go, all right, maybe the ways I've engaged with God aren't working anymore, but that doesn't mean that I just can't engage with God, or that doesn't mean that God's actually gone or has abandoned me or, you know, has forsaken me. Like, maybe it actually means that we're in that period of, like, the lenses are out, our eyes are still readjusting. You don't know which way is up or down. But we will. Yeah, we will. There will come a time. We will. [00:30:02] Speaker A: I think I'm thinking of a few things there. I'm thinking what. What you just named about the perspective necessarily changing. I think that's. That's one. The second that you named about our different senses. We're having to, you know, utilize some of these different things that God gave us. And then also, if I'm remembering the story, something else that just stood out to me, if I remember remembering it correct, like, help me if I'm not. Because your publicist was great and sent me a PDF before, so I was able to finish it before we chatted. But I'm thinking, if I'm remembering correctly on that story, back to Steve with his kids on the mountain, you said it was a rite of passage for his youngest because he had taken each of their boys when they were about that age to go up the mountain. And for that particular trip with the youngest, he had the older ones with them. And I thought I remembered also him saying he's relying on hearing, but that three of them had made the trip, or however many older siblings there were had made the trip ahead of time. And so made me think of that aspect of community too involved in these crisis and liminality and change moments where you're like, okay, yes, my perspective has to change. This is totally different. This is a different landscape. This is a different world than I was navigating before. So my perspectives has changed. My. I have to utilize these senses that, that weren't important to me, maybe in the other one as, as important as they are now and then also relying on, like, people who are close to us to help us navigate through those situations. You know, what do you hear? What are you hearing? We. None of us can see very well right now, you know, but you've been hearing before, and I think, you know, I've been here before, and it was a different trip because it was a different year, but we kind of remember. This is kind of familiar, like maybe even that communal memory part, you know, like, gosh, you know, you've. You've navigated job change before. You've had a layoff, you've had a massive, you know, family change or a death or an illness, and I haven't. So how can we rely on each other to navigate those changes too? You know, stood out as you were retelling that story. And I think that that's so good. That's been so important. [00:32:20] Speaker B: Thanks, Alexis. That's beautiful. [00:32:25] Speaker A: I want, I want to keep. I want to keep moving. I'm. I'm looking at my notes and going, yeah, Adriel, there's probably going to be no way. I mean, no way. [00:32:36] Speaker B: But we've made like maybe a third through the first chapter, so there you go. [00:32:41] Speaker A: I know, right? We're. We're on. Good. We're on a good track. I want to kind of in the center of, of my, of my page here, just by happenstance. But I think that for me, it, it tracks in this movement because I, you know, for me, I've named transition and change are hard for a lot of people. It's hard. And so I think there can be a tendency to kind of get down on ourselves, like, why can't I do this? Or, you know, for maybe recovering perfectionists, enneagram ones in the room who are like, I should be able to do this, you know, why. Why am I not doing this? Well, you talk in the book about the role of self compassion, and again, that was one of those places where I felt really ministered to. And I think in part because [00:33:36] Speaker B: I'm [00:33:37] Speaker A: not going to say it's not there in other resources on the topic, but I may just be kind of that dense that I need to hear it over and over and over again before it sticks. And the way that you wrote about stuck. So I want to start by asking, like, why, like, why would. Did you feel like this was something important to write about in a book? Like this. So why did you think it was important and then maybe just talk about it a little bit. Yeah, because I feel like it gets lost in a lot of. In a lot of contexts. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I felt like it was important because I struggle with it probably as much as you do and as much as the next person. Like, I don't think this is an area that anyone or that most people can say comes naturally to them. We naturally. And I know there's exceptions obviously, but we naturally hold ourselves to a higher standard than we hold other people internally, externally, we judge, we are very judgmental and we often hold people that higher standards than we're willing to reach ourselves. But I think internally, often our. Our scripts internally are very harsh. And I think, yeah, different things play into that. Birth order, enneagram personalities, all of that sort of stuff. Religious upbringing, you know, parenting, so many different things. So I don't know that you can parse it out and just go, it's because of this or this. But. But I struggle too, with self compassion. Immensely. Immensely. I've written the book and I still struggle, but I felt it was important to put in there because something that's helped me is the reframe of going, okay, I actually feel a lot of compassion toward other people when they're struggling. And so why wouldn't I feel that same sense of compassion toward myself when I'm struggling? It doesn't cognitively makes sense for me. I'm not always the most. I'm very sensitive person, but I'm not super very sensitive. Okay, I get. I do. Yeah. I feel I have big feelings. That's part of who I am. I've always been like that. But I also, I also really click into like head mode. Like I just do stuff because it's right. And you know, I'm an enneagram3. So like, I want to be perceived as like getting it right, being the expert. But I'm. I'm 3 Wing too. So I really also care about like helping people. And I am a very values driven person, you know, So I have very strong empathy and compassion for other people, but I do not allow myself that same grace. You know, I constantly will have to deal with internal monologues saying you're not measuring up to your capacity, your potential, what you know, to be right. You have all the right answers, but you're not living them out. Like, I can be very critical. And I knew that during this season, my season of liminality, which I literally was in a season of liminality through writing the entire manuscript. And that book took me way longer to write than most authors take on their books. Took me years to finally get it out. Much to my publishers. Yeah, just credit to them for their patience. But I just, yeah, I knew that if I was struggling with this as a person who like is very used to coming alongside people I'm used to mentoring, I'm used to leading teams. I'm used to sort of having it together. I'm used to being in ministry positions and I knew that if I struggle like this when I sort of, and I'm saying this in air quotes, I don't know, is this on video or just audio? [00:37:43] Speaker A: Nah, we're just recording the video. But would just be audio for folks. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I say I'm saying this listeners and air quotes like I, I have all the right answers, you know, like I can, I can know all the stuff but that doesn't mean it's easy for me to apply it. So for me going, I know that I need to write like I need a section of the book that focuses on self compassion in order to just even confront my own inner critic, my own, my own judge, my own shame, you know, for struggling. I knew that, that other people would have that too, like of course, because we're human, you know. And so I, but I think I, I wanted to, I wanted to write about compassion from not just a self help perspective, which I think is important. And I, there's nothing wrong with self help. Self help in my perspective. I know that some people don't share that opinion, but I think self help is fantastic. But I think that as a Christian, a deeply committed Christian, I want myself help to be undergirded by the love of God. And if God is describing God's self in scripture as gracious, compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in love, like those are the things that God leads with when God describes himself. And if God truly is those things toward me and I am called to be in Christ, then God is actually calling me to be those things as well. Not just toward others, but toward myself. And so me being critical and judgmental and you know, impatient and quick to anger with myself, that is in direct opposition to the way God would treat me, me. So I'm literally when I'm doing those things, when I'm being quick to anger with myself. Impatient, uncompassionate. Uncompassioned. Is that a word? Discompassionate. You know what I mean? When I'm, when I'm acting in that way, it's Literally going against like God's heart for me. And so, you know, I really wanted to ground it in, in a biblical, I don't know that word sometimes gets overused. But in a story in the Bible that actually shows like how powerful self, how powerful compassion would be. And I, I told the story in there about you know, the two women that brought their babies before Solomon and that's, I don't maybe won't share that story at the moment because that'll kind of shift the conversation. Unless you want me to. But, but I think compassion can be really, really powerful. And we think of it as this kind of flowery thing that belongs on, you know, the COVID of a pink Bible with flowers on it. And it's just a feminine soft thing. But actually compassion is incredible force of power for good and for change and for transformation in our lives. And yeah, the fact that it's one of the very first things that God describes God self as is to me that's worth like raising our eyebrows at, and leaning in and going why, what are you saying there, God? Like what do you actually have for us in that? [00:41:12] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. I won't, I won't ask you to share the Solomon story, but I will ask you to share another, another Bible story if it's all right. Because it was connected to this for me. And that was when Jesus was the familiar New Testament story for us in the Gospels of Jesus being on the boat in the storm with his disciples. And that your sharing of that story was just dripping with this self desire for self compassion that we're talking about. And I'll just a little, a little taste and then ask you to elaborate what I, what I read when I, when I read that section was helpful for me because I think I had, I had often also read it as kind of like, come on, like a, like a come on from Jesus. But you specifically say, and this was, this was what I have in my notes. Jesus rebukes the storm, but not his disciples. Um, yeah. Can you share why that story felt meaningful to you both, both in the realms of self compassion, but also, you know, change and, and all of this and anything else that felt meaningful to you. But for me that was very connected to the self compassion piece. [00:42:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Well, first of all, I love writing about Jesus like that's my fate. Like I, I love it when we get into the gospels ever. Like Jesus is so amazing. You know, Jesus is the most complete full picture of who God is. And so I'm always going to be looking for Stories about, like, how does Jesus treat the people around him? Because that's how he would treat us as well. And I think that story in the boat to me is so powerful because I grew up in a Christian home. I've. I've been a Christian for all of my life, bar five years, when I peaced out, did my own thing. And so I'm very familiar with the story. And I've heard it one million times. And every one of those times I heard it as basically Jesus going, oh, you of little faith, you know, like, what? You still doubt me? And I always read it as a rebuke. I always read it with the tone in Jesus voice, being disappointed, being contemptuous. You know, I always imagined a bit of a scoff on his face, a wrinkle in his brow, you know, like all the things that I would do when I'm disappointed with someone, you know, that hasn't measured up to my expectations. And I just, I was reading that story one day and like, I don't know, you know how you just. You have these moments of reading the Bible where it just jumps out at you and you're like, how have I never read this before in this way? And I just, I read it a few times and. And I. It just occurred to me, like, Jesus always, like, in this, you know, then I'm reading in the other gospels and I'm looking, you know, am I missing it? Different translations, like, what? You know, I'm like, all it says there is, Jesus rebukes the storm. He never actually, like, he does say, like, oh, you have little faith. But we read all the tone into it. There's no commentary even from, you know, the author going, Jesus was incredibly disappointed. The narrator, you know, like, there's nothing like that. It's just journalism. Like, he just is reporting what Jesus did, what Jesus said. And Jesus rebuked the storm. And all the rest of it. We read into it the disappointment, the, you know, judging for them, judging them of having not enough faith. Like, all that sort of stuff. It's like just all. It's all in between the lines. But, like, why, why do we get to put all this stuff in between the lines? And you know what? Maybe Jesus was disappointed. Like that is possible. Like, maybe he did say it with a scoff on his face. Like, that's possible. But also, like, if you're reading the, the Bible with a consistent lens of who Jesus is and looking at how his other interactions are, like, he does not spend a lot of time rebuking anyone, especially his Disciples, you know, he's with them for three years and it's not to the very end of his time with his disciples that he actually starts rebuking them in a few different areas. But like before then he just wasn't like it was all about establishing relationship, all about establishing trust, all about establishing his character is cemented in their lives as good, you know, until. And then right at the end, he rebukes them for a few things. But, but I think we read all the tone into it and we bring our all of our own baggage and self judgment into it. And even if Jesus, even if Jesus was disappointed, which is possible, I think the challenge to me in that reading was Adriel, are you willing to read this and imagine that actually maybe Jesus is saying this with a different tone? Like maybe Jesus is saying, oh, you have little faith. Maybe he's just naming it, you know, maybe it's not an accusation, he's just naming it. You have little faith. But look, I'm still going to calm the storm because it's not about your measure of faith. It's not about your works. Like, it's not about what you can conjure up. If you believe hard enough, pray hard enough, I'm going to come through for you. It's actually like God does the miracle because God is God, you know, like that's literally why God did the miracle, because God is God and we are never going to understand like why sometimes it's, it seems that Jesus appears with a miracle and at other times there's no miracle. Like that is so confusing to us and it just is. Like, I can't explain that to you, Alexis. I can't explain that to anyone. Sometimes it just feels so unfair. Like when, when do we get the miracle and when do we not? You know, I don't understand that, but I do know that the miracle is not dependent on me being awesome. Just not. It's dependent on God being awesome. And I, I just, yeah, I read that story. Like I can remember the day that I read that story. I was actually getting ready. It's funny because I was preaching and I was guest preaching at a church that day and I already had my sermon prepared and I was praying and I was reading and I just popped out at me and like I rewrote my whole sermon. Like I just did an off the cuff sermon that day based on what God had shown me that morning. Like, even though I already had something prepared, but it just moved me so much and I could, like, I'll never forget that moment when I read it differently and went, this is for me, like, and I think this is for other people too. I think we actually need to know that God is a lot less disappointed with us than we think. God is so gracious, so compassionate, so kind toward us, so patient, so slow to anger. That's actually who God is. And if we could understand more of God's character toward us in our lives, more of God's ways towards. In our lives, it would give us so much reassurance for when things are rocky, when our faith feels thin, when we don't understand God, when we're not getting a miracle, when we feel we should, you know, but just to lean back into that, actually, who is God? And it's not always about what God is doing and what God is not doing. Because that does feel confusing at times. But going, but who God is doesn't change. And for me, that's a huge comfort. So, yeah, I love that story. I will never not tell that story when invited to. Because I think we should all start to try and read Jesus a little bit differently without accusation running in the back of our minds. Yeah, not just that story, but other gospel encounters, too. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Other gospel encounters, Other encounters in the Old Testament with Yahweh. That's where I'm going to go next. Because your description, I. I appreciate a writer so much. I'm like. I write, like, papers and stuff like that, but every time I read a really gifted writer, I'm like, thank you for, like, helping me to use my imagination. And so I want to. I want to take us to Jacob. I want to take us to Jacob now. And the way that you describe that, before I do that, I'm just going to read this kind of slightly paraphrased quote. I think that's written right above this story in my notes. But you write sometimes God's silence is not abandonment, but quiet companions. And so I just kind of want to name that. Like, in the. In the midst of this conversation, we've just talked about that Jesus was asleep on the boat. That probably felt like abandonment. I mean, that's the image that comes up for me. Sometimes it's not abandonment. Sometimes it's quiet companionship, sometimes it's wrestling. And that story with Jacob is. Can be a really uncomfortable story in the Bible where Jacob wrestles with, is it God? Is it an angel? We're not really sure. And I think it was a seminary professor, I think it was my New Testament professor who said something to the effect of. And I don't think this was unique to him or original to him. But basically he was talking about this in terms of giving us permission to wrestle with the text in, in general. And he said, when we wrestle with the text, a lot of times we come away with, with both of those things that Jacob came away with, which was a blessing and a limp that we, we, we kind of get both of those things. And so I want to talk about the wrestling that happens with God often in these crisis, liminality, change, transition places. And I want to say the story of Jacob is uncomfortable, but high school wrestling is really uncomfortable for me. So I'm like, I can't. I'm like, I feel like a prude. Like, I'm like, I don't know, but like, it just feels so, it feels so uncomfortable to me. [00:51:47] Speaker B: Like, the outfits, Everything about is the outfits. [00:51:50] Speaker A: For sure. For sure it's the outfits. Like, yeah, for sure it's the outfits, but it's, it's everything, you know, and you describe some of that, but like, you know, it's, it's the sweat, it's the breath, you know, but, but I ask you to draw on, on some of that description because what you were describing and working towards was the intimacy involved in wrestling. And I think that's where, you know, part of the reason to mention that God's silence is an abandonment but quiet companionship. Our relationship with God goes through a lot in these transition, crisis, liminality, seasons. And I would say, I think that's one of the reasons why they feel so hard. Because for many of us, our relationship with God is one of the things that has felt the most certain throughout our lives. And then we get to this point where our relationship with God feels different. It is going through changes. We're wrestling, we wonder if God is gone. We don't understand. And it's kind of like, know the thing that we could rely on, you know, one of the things we could rely on most certain. Certainly even that's changing now. It might be like you said, you kind of pieced out, for a lot of people that change is growth, but we can't tell that it's growth when it's happening. Or maybe it's changing to more intimacy or something different. But there's an evolution for many of us. And those sticky parts, that wrestling part feels awkward. Awkward. And I like how you describe and argue that even though it might be awkward, it is really intimate. And it is a, it is a, it is a form of intimacy. [00:53:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that we, I, I included a lot of metaphors in the book because, you know, metaphors. And I'm always going to nerd out on metaphors because I am a writer and I think that way. [00:54:10] Speaker A: Love a good metaphor, you know, and. [00:54:13] Speaker B: But I think metaphors are. They are the mechanism that can help us understand God and help us understand ourselves in relation to God. And I think certain metaphors will really hold weight for us at different times in our lives. And so I try to include different metaphors in the book so that it would capture people at different places, you know, because I've had times where I've wrestled, been on the mat, wrestling with God, you know, and it is uncomfortable and it is hard and it, like, you can feel like it might break you, but when you're really earnestly, like, throwing everything you've got, hurling your questions, hurling your accusations, even, like, giving it all you've got, but, like, then responding to God as well, like, it's a. It's a. The thing with wrestling is you're not like hurling bombs. It's like. It's. It's a. It's. It takes two to wrestle. Like, you're back and forth. It's a give and take. There's a weird, you know, dance of it all. And there have been times where I've felt and experienced that, but there have been other times in the wake of loss or crisis or. Or, you know, an ambiguous sort of middle transitional place where, like, I don't feel I'm wrestling at all. I just feel I'm in the dark, you know, Like, I can't see anything and I don't know what's going on and I don't know where God went, you know, and then there's other times when it's like, well, the wilderness metaphor really works for me. I feel dry. I feel barren. I feel like I can't, like, catch a break. I'm just thirsty all the time, you know, I don't. Yeah. And so I. I think. I think that's why the Bible is so interesting to me, because you've got all of these authors, all of these books, you know, and it's just littered with metaphor upon metaphor upon metaphor. And we can always find in there, like, something to engage with for where. Where we're at. But I. I think to me, so many of my peers and friends, colleagues, former colleagues, people that grew up in the church, like, so many are. Have or are deconstructing their faith. And I. I think I only use that word once or twice in the book. I. I didn't use it a lot because there's a. Certain people, it just automatically put their guard up when you say deconstruction. And that frustrates me. It's not a bad word. But then there's others that also, like, kind of wrap their whole identity around deconstruction. And I. I don't know that that's helpful either. But I think that kind of two things are true. Like, one, if you walk with God long enough, you will have periods where you've got to untangle stuff full stop. Like, that's been going on since the beginning of time. Deconstruction maybe is a new buzzy word that, that, you know, some people use. But, like, people have been deconstructing their faith since the beginning of Genesis. Like, we're always pulling apart our beliefs about God. And I think that, you know, this is something that the Jewish tradition does really well, is they love to wrestle with scripture and they love to hash it out, and they love to hurl the big questions and like, that's part of the growth for them. And in our Christian world, like, we've really, really swung the other direction. God, you don't question God. You don't question truth. Like, truth is truth. Like, everything there's, you know, nothing is relative, nothing is nuanced, everything is certain. And that has gotten us in so much trouble. And that has also made so many people walk away from the institutional church that probably wouldn't have. And we been able to read Scripture with a little bit more nuance and focus more on the character of God than on our interpretation of God's legislation. So, yeah, back to the metaphor, the wrestling with God. I think so many of my peers and my colleagues and everyone around me seems to be, oh, I was saying, yeah, part of that is just maturing as a Christian. But then the other part of it is, I think, this unique moment in time that we're living in where, you know, Phyllis Tickles, she's an incredible theologian, and she. She writes about the major shifts that the church goes through sort of every 500 years. And we're really in one of those right now. And it's. I think anyone that's sort of spending any time taking their faith seriously and try to understand what's going on as the church changes, as social media changes, the way we discourse about faith, you know, world events, all of it, I think it's very clear to see, like, the church is shifting and a lot of people are walking well away. They're running away from the church. But then there's so many others that are like, I am done. I'm done with it all. But, like, I actually, like, still love Jesus. And I think for me, that's kind of this, this. That's where my heart really extends to, is those people that are like, I actually, like, my faith matters to me, my spirituality matters to me. Like, I think Jesus is amazing and true and, like, represents all that is good in the world and what we know of God. And I want to help people connect to that regardless of where their faith is. So if you're in the wrestle right now, like, man, it's hard. Like, you actually need people around you to offer you water, to, like, help you tap out when you need a break, to, like, you know, like, rub your shoulders, psych you up. You've got this. You can do this. Keep wrestling, stay on the mat. You're going to be okay, you know, and then. And like, care for your wounds if you feel a little beat up in the whole thing. So imperfect metaphor, because I don't think God's. They're beating us up, but, you know, so I think. I think we need that. I think we need to be able to encourage each other as we see our friends on the mat, as we see our loved ones. Ones on the mat. And so many kind of religious leaders have just written people off as soon as they hit the mat. It's like, man, if you do that, if we write people off as soon as they hit the mat, like, we're literally going against thousands of years of biblical tradition. Like, that's our heritage, is to be on the mat, you know, and it's also our heritage to walk through the wilderness with Holy Spirit. That's in our. That's in our heritage as well. You know, our heritage is. Is a pilgrimage. Like, all of these metaphors are for us to. And there will be times in our lives where we connect with different, different ones of them, but none of them are, like, complete. But. But they can be complete for you for a season of time, for a moment in time, you know, where you need. Where you need one, where you really need to find how to meet God in that. That new way for that new season in your life. Because if we don't adapt ourselves in the way we connect with God, our faith does become stagnant. It just does. You know, I felt that at different points in my life, and maybe you have too. I'm sure a lot of people have. But when we're not engaging, it's easy to grow stagnant and Just lean into, like what we knew, you know, what we knew to be true. But that's when we get rigid with our beliefs. We put. We put policies and doctrines over actual lived people's experiences and feelings and the care we put in for them. And I just think Jesus, like, Jesus never like, ignored doctrine. He never ignored truth. But like, he always led with kindness, with connection, with pursuit, with making people feel, belong, that they belong, that they're valuable, that they're cared for. Like shepherd's heart, man, that's. He led with that always, even. Even when he got angry, like he did it out of his shepherd's heart that was trying to care for the people around him. I want to be like that too, you know, [01:02:29] Speaker A: not to just take this out forever, but to emphasize the partnership that you talked about and the dance that wrestling is. I don't want to miss that. I think if I'm remembering correctly in the book, you have boys, right? You have some, Some boys. [01:02:49] Speaker B: We have. [01:02:49] Speaker A: We have two boys. Some friends of ours, years ago, had three boys when they were. Everyone was really young. And. And I remember her saying, it's just all wrestling all the time in their house. They had three boys. And she said, it's just all wrestling all the time. And, And I'm thinking about my husband with my sons, especially when they were younger, and the wrestling that of course, like, you know, promoted bonding and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But my husband was wrestling with them, like they were wrestling with him and he was wrestling, wrestling back. But I think sometimes it feels like we're the only ones wrestling, like, you know, like. But God is not some. Some like stoic, you know, or, you know, statue or like a tree or something like that. It's like God is the idea, the con. Just thinking about God wrestling back with us. I don't know, there's something that feels like really kind of mystical and meaningful, you know, that, that God would engage with us in that way that, like you said, it's not us like hurling bombs or something. This is. It's a. It's a give and take. It's a back and forth. And that God would allow us to like, work it out, you know, in that way. We. She just recently passed. But we have had a mastiff for almost 11 years. And then when our, when our previous puppy passed, we got. She wasn't a Puppy, she was 16. But we got. We got a puppy who's a little beagle puppy who's downstairs, thankfully not making any noise right now. And she would Just harass our mastiff, you know, and. And sometimes the mastiff would not engage. She would just lay down and just let the puppy, you know, do whatever we want. We've got all these wonderful, silly videos, you know, that help with our memories of this dog, just, like, terrorizing the mastiff. But many times I'd say, more often than not, the mastiff would fully engage with her. And, you know, and. And. And it was ridiculous because the size discrepancy is just wild, you know? And we were always. Like, if she wanted to, we would tell the beagle, like, if she wanted to. One bite. Like, one bite, you'd be done, you know? But of course, she never did. She was the sweetest, kindest dog ever. But I even get that picture. Like, we're the beagle, and we kind of need it, you know? Like, we need the wrestling in our. In our, like, young, exuberant, working ourselves out or sometimes tired or developmentally, like we need it. Like, our beagle puppy need. Needed the play, and she didn't have any other puppies her size to play with or her age, so she played with this massive older mastiff who would engage. You know, I think in my mind, it's because she enjoyed the. You know, she was affectionate, she loved her, but the mastiff didn't need it in the same kind of way that the puppy needed it. But she did it, we think, you know, as much as we can say that and personify this sweet dog out of a love for the beagle and what she needed at the time. And it. In that context, it was really a joyful thing to watch. But it just. It's like wrestling is part of being a creature, you know, I think creatures, we just. We just wrestle, you know, I think it's just part of what. You know, I was pulling weeds in my backyard last night. I'm like, yeah, because creatures wrestle. And I'm like, yes. And they're. They're hardy. You know, they're gonna. They're gonna keep on. You know, they want to grow and to be and to exist. And so they're gonna wrestle against me, telling them with my actions that they don't belong there. I saw another one pop up this morning. I was like, I thought I just done this, you know, But I don't know. I just think about wrestling as. As part of our. Our creaturely ness. We just sometimes we do it out of. Out of. You know, like you said, something comes, and we're not expecting it, and sometimes, but I think we need it. Kind of no matter how it, it comes to us sometimes. [01:07:13] Speaker B: I agree. Yeah, I agree. I remember when my. I've got three boys. We've got three boys as well, plus an extra living with us right now. So you've got. I've got a house full of all boys, plus me. Even our dog is a boy. But I remember when our boys were little, like there would be times where, and when I'm, when I'm kind of teasing like light hearted with my husband, I call him Booker instead of Ryan. And there'd be times I would be like, booker, go wrestle. [01:07:40] Speaker A: Yes. [01:07:41] Speaker B: 100, you know, the little ones driving me crazy or whatever. I'm like just Booker, like hit the map, you know, like, yes, you just need, like they just need that, you know, he would gladly, like, oh yeah. You know, and yeah, and they just love it. And like the idea of doing that to me is completely appalling. Like, I would not even know what to do if some kid tried to wrestle me. Like, you know, and I love it if I'm not saying that women can't. Like, I've, I've seen moms do that with their kids and I'm like, oh, you're amazing. But I just wouldn't, not like, I don't, I would just be like, what, what's happening right now? I'll read you a story, you know, like. But yeah, there would be times where you could just see it in the kids. Like, they just need contact. Like, yes, physical contact, outlet for their energy. And I think, you know, as hard as it can be when we're in a faith space where things feel tricky or where, you know, even filled with rage or doubt or accusations for God, like, if we're willing to take it to the mat, like that shows that we're engaged, you know, like, you can't walk away from God and be wrestling. Like, if you're wrestling, to me, that shows that you still care about God. That shows that you still care about like what scripture says or. And what it means to you. You still care about your faith. Or else why, why would you, like, you wouldn't. You would just walk away, you know, and so I think people can be quite judgmental toward others that are wrestling through their faith. When I'm like the opposite to me, that goes, wow, you take your faith seriously enough to wrestle, wrestle it down. Like, you take it seriously enough to, to care about not just what you're told, but like your lived experience, you know, and what you know of God and you're willing to like, have your beliefs change? Like, we all need to untangle some stuff and we all need to be held together as well. Like, it's not an either or. It's. It's a. It's a both. And. But to me, that. Going back to your point from before, from that, that mountaintop experience that my friend Steve describes, like, that's why we need community. People that love us. That's where the safety is, is knowing that there's people. They may have gone before us and know where. What they're doing. They may not. They may be watching us going. You are. I don't even know how to relate. Like, this is so beyond my experience. I do not understand your. Russell. I do not understand your question or whatever. But, like, can we be committed to people anyway? Yeah, we love anyway. Like, pretty sure that's what Jesus would do. Just love anyway. You know, commit anyway. Let them have the wrestle as they need it. Let them walk away if they need to. But, like, you stay there with the door open. [01:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Adriel. I'm just became aware of the time and realizing I could sit here all day, but for you, I would be asking to see. Sit there all night. So I'm. I'm gonna. I want to. I want to ask you to end with a brief word of encouragement for folks who may be living through some sort of liminality or crisis or change transition point right now. But as you're thinking about that, I want to just give folks a little. A little bit of a taste from my perspective, because we had, like, so many places that we didn't get. And so I'm just like, naming these bullet points. Maybe that will serve you too, Adriel, and say, like, these are the places we didn't get to that really, when I was reading it stood out to me. Next, the first one, the next conversation. Right. I'm so embarrassed because I can't remember the phrase that you used. I think it was like a JFK phrase. Um, but crisis as a turning point. Not necessarily as like, something plus opportunity. And I can't remember what that was. Um. Oh, gosh. The feel, the need. You told a story about, like, feeling a need to break something when you were sad, but then kind of recognizing maybe that was like, actually more of the feeling of, like, wanting to be in control of your feelings and just thinking about how a lot of times in these moments we're not really in control of our feelings. You have a whole section on the dignity of being human, and I just kind of Wanted to name the title of that section because who in the US I feel like that we have lost a lot of, like, just the ability to, like, bestow in public the dignity, God given dignity on each other and how, gosh, that's really affected how we live, I think. Oh, you name need as a gift and, and, and, and compared again in another beautiful metaphor, like an umbilical cord. We talk about again, one of, in this one of these humanity sections about vulnerability, giving love a place to land. And I thought that was a beautiful phrasing, especially for someone who sometimes struggles with vulnerability or sometimes, when I have shared, sometimes get like, vulnerability hangover. Like, oh my goodness, what in the world did I just do? But the importance of naming our pain. You named it right before I started this list of community. But you talk about sometimes we're shaped less by our questions than by the community with whom we're wrestling. That felt. I mean, I have, like, all the stars on that one and we still didn't get to it, but that's my fault. And then also a CS Lewis quote about asking nonsense or unanswerable questions that I had never come across that quote before, but it actually kind of, it made me feel better because I was, I was starting to kind of question when I started this podcast. I think it's probably still in some of the blurbs out there. But I was saying I was a Christian, aiming to help us ask better questions. And I've been struggling with that word better because I was like, I don't know, I don't want to, like, disparage anyone's questions because all these questions are good and valuable and all of those kinds of things. But I think that helped me because I think even, like, theologically, socially, sometimes we can ask questions that just maybe I don't want to say they're nonsense like CS Lewis says, but, you know, it's like, I'm not even actually sure if that's. Maybe there's a better question. Could we ask a question that might help us get to a different place? So anyway, that's a long list. That's what's on my clipboard that we didn't get to. And there's so much more that didn't end up on my clipboard. So I just want to kind of point those things out and say thank you, because these have been fodder for my thoughts in the past few days. [01:14:16] Speaker B: Well, thank you for sharing. Yeah. So now I wish we had more time because I would love to just hear, like, your own What. What you got out of the book and what, you know, kind of what you're walking away with. Do you have time to just share briefly? Like, maybe one thing. [01:14:32] Speaker A: I think the thing that has stood out to me, that stood out to me the most maybe in this reading, and it might be different if I read it in six months or if I had read it six months ago, but I really do think it's that those pieces around the questions, probably because that's something that I've been wrestling with for several years now. But those two. Those two last things I named, what are nonsense or unanswerable questions. And also how we are shaped sometimes less by our questions than by the community with whom we're wrestling. I think part of that is because different communities ask different questions. And so I have seen in different seasons of my faith life how different communities ask different questions. And I think even in some faith communities that I've been a part of, some realms of questions are out of bounds or off limits. And so what does it look like to be in kind of, I would say, a spiritual, spacious place, maybe, where more questions are welcomed, but then also a more diverse community where different folks are asking questions that are meaningful to them. And then what can we learn from? Not just the questions that I bring, but what can I learn from the questions that other folks are bringing? And how that's impacted, you know, for me, that's impacted my theology as an example, but I think it also impacts how we love. I hope those two are closely connected. So people, even. Even. And I shared earlier, this is just coming to me right now, but when my mentor asked, do you think this is an A to B or do you think this is a season of transition? Me being in community with him helped me to see this like the contact lenses. It helped me to have a different lens on this part of my life, that maybe I would have gotten there on my own. But his question and his presence, his. His being in community with me was paradigm shifting for how I began to navigate that season. And that's an incredibly valuable thing, especially when we. I wasn't even thinking about the title, I would say especially when we feel maybe loosely tethered sometimes, but I think that is just. That's more valuable than. Than, you know, me, someone kind of with a more natural, deceivingly so, kind of like independent bend would want to admit. So, yeah, there were so many things that in the vulnerability piece as well, like just realizing the reciprocal relationship there with vulnerability and love felt really meaningful. [01:17:37] Speaker B: I think. The. I think, I think the phrase better questions is actually really wise. I just want to affirm that for you, Alexis. I think it's really wise because so often we can sort of categorize our questions into good questions and bad questions or right questions and wrong questions. And I just, I don't think it's about like finding the right questions, but sometimes it is about asking better questions. And what you said there about doing that in the context of community, that changes the way we ask questions. You know, me not living in the US changes the way I ask questions. Me living with, I spent many, many years living with people from Asia and yeah, just international mix and that made me ask very different questions. I spent some time living in Egypt where my daily life was with Coptic Christians, Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians being in that environment and Muslims of course, but like my co working peers were, you know, from other parts of the Christian church and, and that changed the way I asked questions and the way I related and I think that's yeah, so special and I, I think I'm always learning to ask better questions and so I just want to affirm you in that, that like better questions, like, that's a great way to articulate it because that gets you away from the right, wrong, good, bad binaries. But I think what I would say in closing and, and this is, it's a great full circle moment because it, it, you really led me, well right up into this with bringing back your. Was it, did you say your therapist or your past mentor of mine. [01:19:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:31] Speaker B: Who asked you if this was a, an AB or if it was a season. And I think I just want to close with, with just briefly kind of defining that word liminality because you've said it a few times. But in case listeners don't know, I actually was originally going to call this book Liminal Hope. That was my first title for it and, and then the publishers went, oh, people don't know what that word means. So I took it out and redid it. But to me this, the whole thing of liminality, it's a, it's a phrase that was quite. It really means threshold. I don't need to tell the history of it. Sorry I geeked out and stuff. But it really, it means threshold. And we think threshold sometimes like a doorway, like and leaving one place and entering another. But that we can think of that threshold as like, yeah, stepping across like a door, a door jam. Like it's just a very one room to the next room. And I think that is sort of that AB you're talking about, like, we assume that change, like, okay, on the other side of it, things, on the other side of change, things are changed. Like it's, it's changed. But more often than not, like a threshold is more like, like you see a lot of different thresholds, liminal spaces in the Bible. You see like Jesus, you know, crossing the Jordan or like there's all these different, like the wilderness itself, like the people of Exodus, like that's a threshold for them. They have to cross this. So. But the, the analogy that I like best is, is thinking of a liminal space, like an airport. Because an airport is that place that's sort of between where you're flying from and where you're going. So it's not really, like, it's not where you live and it's not where you're going to live or going to be. It's an in between space. But it's still a really important space. Like it's still its own thing, you know. And. Yeah, and so I think I want to encourage people that are in that sort of liminal space that can feel like fuzzy edges. Like, when did this start? When did this. Sometimes that is a clear start. Like there's a clear catastrophe or, you know, a divorce or a diagnosis or something. Sometimes it's really clear. Other times we just like kind of, the edges are fuzzy and we found ourselves in this middle space. But then the way out isn't clear. It's fuzzy too. And that can feel really disarming and scary. You know, how long is this going to last? And I guess what I just want to leave your listeners with is like, liminality is special because God, God meets us in, in liminal spaces and liminal seasons in really specific ways that we need to meet God. But also they are transitionary. They are transitional. They are. They don't last forever. You know, you will move out of them. I mean, Scripture's full of them. Our lives. I've heard, you know, I've heard a couple the theologians. You're like, all of our life is liminal space. Like, because we're living in that, in between the now and the not yet, you know, and so we could kind of stretch it way big. But I think for most of us, we, we keep it small to our own lives or our family's life and go like this, this season that we're in, it's not going to last forever. And I actually think that's important to say that, like it just won't. And it might feel like it and you might feel like there's going to be no end, but it won't last forever. And no one can tell you how long it will last. God's probably not going to tell you how long it will last. Like, that's typically the way, not the way God operates. Because God loves us to surrender and trust and walk with God. So if we just knew how it was all going to pan out, we wouldn't have to trust. And so we would, yeah, remove ourselves from that need for relationship which is always God's priority. So, yeah, we don't know how long it's going to last. But, but I think I feel on good ground to say, like, it doesn't last forever, you know, and, and I don't want to be patronizing and say, enjoy it while it lasts because, good Lord, it's not always enjoyable. But don't try to rush your way out the other side. Receive the gifts that God has for you, like, in that luminality in the, in between, in the hard space. Like, because there's things that can be formed in, in those seasons that actually can't be formed elsewhere. They just can't. You know, even Jesus, like, Jesus, after his baptism, he goes out and he spends time alone, like in his own liminal space, and he meets with God. And we know a little tiny fraction of what happened in those 40 days. Like, we, we don't really know what was happening in those 40 days, but we do know that, like, God called him out. God called him out and it was hard, man. He was not keen. But if God called Jesus out, like, there's going to be times where he calls, where God calls us out as well, but they don't last. They will end. We will transition out of them. So that's my, that's my encouragement to close. [01:24:55] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Again, the book is Tethered to the Quiet Kindness of God in Crisis, Change and the Spaces in between by Adriel Booker, who's been my guest today. Thank you so much for this book, for your work, for sharing, for your vulnerability, and for your wisdom. I appreciate you joining me today. [01:25:21] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Alexis. [01:25:24] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected].