Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible> hi. That makes total sense. The podcast where we talk about faith, finance and everyday life in a way that makes total sense. I'm your host, Alexis <inaudible> this podcast, you'll hear the personal stories of friends I'll be interviewing who were doing familiar things in new and innovative. We'll answer questions specifically about money in our relationship with it. And we'll explore faith and Bible teaching together in all of these. It's not about changing our convictions as much as it is about messing with our methods. We'll have a lot of moments here together where we pause and say, that makes total sense.
Speaker 0 00:00:44 Hi, I'm Alexis Piseti and you're listening to that makes total sense. The conversation that I'm bringing you today is with Kara Meredith. Kara is an author and a speaker. She is an amazing conversationalist. I really wish that some of the questions she asked me offline would have made the cut, but maybe next time, she is the author of a recent book called the color of life, a journey toward love and racial justice. This book is a memoir, but it is a memoir with so many different facets. Kara gives the readers an insight into her faith, walk into her relationship with her husband, even when it was budding and also into the racial and civil rights history of our country. Kara is a, an M a woman of European American descent who married a man of African American descent. And they have two handsome boys together.
Speaker 0 00:01:43 Cara also married into a family rich in civil rights, activism history. And she's going to tell us about that in our conversation. So the one thing that I, that really sticks out to me about Kara and her experience is that while she's definitely a teacher in this space and brings us, invites us along in her journey, what makes her such an incredible teacher is that she has poised herself to listen and be a learner. And so I have learned so much from her posture as well as from the facts that she presents. And so I just am praying that you will lean in that you will gain from this conversation and that you'll be able to hop on and use what Kara has shared as her journey as a part of your own. So enjoy this conversation I had today with Kara Meredith. Hi, I'm Alexis <inaudible> and this is, that makes total sense. I am so excited to be here today with author and speaker and conversationalists. Kara Meredith, Hey Kara. Hello. Kara has written an incredible book. Um, it's her memoir, which is just like memoirs are my, and so this was
Speaker 1 00:03:00 Just so amazing for me to read, but what I love personally about memoirs is when I can learn something about the culture and the history of the time that the person is writing in the time that the person is growing up. And so history sounds a little strange. I know, because I feel like we're the same age, so it's not really history, but Kara has written a book called the color of life, a journey toward love and racial justice. Kara, can you tell us a little bit about, we'll get into the book in a big way in a moment, but can you tell us, just introduce yourself and tell us about your current context and your family since your family is such a big part of your book? Yeah, absolutely. So my family and I live now in the greater San Francisco Bay area, which is where we were most of the time, except for a short stint, which I write about in the book up in Seattle, Washington, but we've come back to the Bay area and, uh, this is where we live now.
Speaker 1 00:04:01 So I live with my husband, James and our two boys, uh, who are, um, entering second and second grade and kindergarten, uh, in just a couple of days. I don't know when this episode is airing, but we are gearing up for school pretty soon. Uh, and, um, really by day now I, um, and with them, but when I start we all, when I get the chance, uh, I'm a writer. And so I do a lot of freelance writing. Um, I hope to write a second book at some point. Um, I do quite a bit of guest speaking and preaching. Uh, although all of that is a little weird now, um, since so much of it is online. Um, and then I do, I do quite a bit of, I, uh, host with, uh, friends and people of color, uh, different conversations around race, uh, and issues of race.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 So that's kind of my day job. Awesome. And so since most people, um, who are going to be listening to this are just going to kind of be clicking through the episodes and they can't see you. Um, when you say that you host with people of color. So give us kind of like your, and you, and you're writing about racial justice. So give us a little bit of your background, your ethnicity, and the people that you, that you like to have this conversations with. Absolutely. So I am a white woman and or I am of European American descent. Uh, I am married to a black man really that's, uh, where many parts of my story began was, um, entering into love. And I know we'll be getting into that, but, um, so when I say people of color and or when I say partnering with people or colleagues of color, uh, that means mostly partnering with black and Brown folks, um, to, uh, to engage together, um, different audiences.
Speaker 1 00:05:54 So I don't just speak to white audiences. Um, and I don't just speak to audiences of color. And for me as a white woman, I do believe that this conversation happens best, um, between both parties, so to speak. Um, and I know that that is, uh, a big tangent that we could get into, but, um, I think it's so powerful, uh, to be able to work through and address, um, multiple perspectives. And so I consider it an honor to be able to partner with different folks. Um, so I have a, um, uh, a dear friend, she and I host a lot of conversations on talking to kids about race, uh, both for, uh, for parents and caregivers, but, um, for nonprofits and churches. Um, and so that's kind of one piece. And then, um, I work for the local Episcopal diocese as a trainer. So, um, partnering, um, with some of the other trainers who are people of color, uh, to equip, um, uh, Piskel congregations.
Speaker 1 00:06:58 That's so amazing. And I happen to be reading right now, Daniel Hill's new book it's gonna release next month called white lies. And I love how he kind of, um, his first chapter, you know, kind of starting this book of like, we are never going to be there, right? Like we're never going to be to the place where we're like, okay, I learned it all. I have it all. Like, I can answer all the questions I can do all of the things. And so that's one of the things that I, I hear when I hear your partnerships, um, is that like, it sounds to me like you're setting yourself in a posture of continual learning, which I think is what we all have to do in all aspects of life. But when I read your book, I've, I've had to catch myself several times to kind of say like the end of your story, or, you know, something like that, because I just, I, I gathered so much from what I read that you, um, are, are being an example.
Speaker 1 00:07:57 I feel like, um, to a lot of us of how to posture ourselves in a, in a, um, in a position of continual learning, especially in this space of racial justice and racial reconciliation, does that even seem accurate? Uh, well, thank you. Um, and I mean, thank you first of all. Um, but yes, I mean, I think in this space for those of us who are white, um, yes, there is. Um, I mean, there there's an imperative because ours is a learned and not a lived experience. And, and even though there are parts of my story in the sense of being in an interracial marriage and, or parenting mixed race kids, uh, that I had an intimate view. Um, I still, as a person of European American descent, I will, I will never fully understand. And, um, I can embrace pain and can enter into lament and this can be, become a part of my story. Um, but I think that is where our responsibility as, as white folks and or those of us who are white, our responsibility is to enter into this with a posture of listening and learning. Um, and, uh, and while there are many different viewpoints for how to engage this conversation, this is where I've landed. And, um, I hope it's where I stay forever. Yeah, no, I love that. I love a learned experience and not a lived experience because I similarly to you, um, so I grew up, my mother is Mexican American. My dad is
Speaker 0 00:09:36 White and I have
Speaker 1 00:09:38 Joked with my dad for practically my whole life that he just really wants to be a minority. I'm like, dad, I know, I know you want to be a person of color. You're not. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:09:50 But he, the empathy that I saw my dad
Speaker 1 00:09:56 Strive for, for basically my whole upbringing, because he recognized that things, even in our, our small town in Oklahoma, um, things look different for my mom when she went out than they did for my dad when he went out and that's gender related, that's ethnicity related. And then, um, he recognized that for my sister and I as well. But then I would say as being someone who is a part of a transracial adoptive family, um, it is, as you say, I feel like there's, there is, we are in a learned experience position, but that intimacy that you're talking about, there's something rich there about that, that, um, that I don't want to lose, but it's not the same as having the lived experience. Don't you think? Absolutely. And I mean, I think this is something that I have, um, I have wrestled with, because I have, I mean, I write a bit, I read a bit of better.
Speaker 1 00:11:01 I just got my words mixed up there. I write a bit about it. Um, in my book, sometimes my brain goes faster than my mouth. So if that happens, just bear with me. But, um, I, there's one part I write about in my book about sitting down at the table and, uh, there were a group of eight of us. This was super early in my marriage. There were three white people, myself included, five people of color. And I remember sitting there, um, there, there was, uh, I couldn't figure it out at the time, but, um, there was, there was a commonality and different, I mean, there's, there's so many different, um, words that can be used to describe this. There was a, um, some call it a commonality of oppression. Um, it's a commonality of lived experience. Uh, there are so many different words and phrases for it.
Speaker 1 00:11:48 Um, but I didn't understand for instance, they started, um, they, as the folks of color who were sitting there, they started laughing and joking about government cheese. And, um, how many of them grew up eating government cheese? And I remember thinking, why is that funny when, you know, when the roots of this are, um, are, are stemming from being poor or not having enough. And yet that commonality, that common existence that, um, that the five of them shared with something that, that those of us who were white, who did, um, who grew up not receiving, uh, women and child, you know, double WIC or food stamps, that was something that we didn't understand. And, um, so, and, and I think I've wanted that sometimes. And yet I sit there and go, wait a minute. I'm not understanding, um, I'm not understanding the full picture here that, uh, it is only through oppression that, um, that they're, that they've been able to come to the other side.
Speaker 1 00:12:49 It is only through this resilience. Um, and that's something, it it's just kind of twisted and backwards in my, um, dominant point of view. And so that's also then been an invitation to sit and perhaps like your father to say, okay, so what is the, why, what is the question behind this of, um, of, of feeling left out and, or, you know, really feeling left out for the first time, right? Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. So, because mine was not because, because my existence as a white person, and as someone who is part of dominant culture, uh, mine was not the reigning, um, existence and or experience that was happening at the table. Right.
Speaker 0 00:13:33 Yeah, yeah, though, that I loved that part of your book. And, um, I, I want to ask you the question that your father-in-law asked you when you got to spend time with him and interview him. So, um, maybe you can tell us first who your father in law is. And then, um, and then tell us the, the question he asked you and what answer you finally came to, because I, I loved that
Speaker 1 00:14:02 One of my favorite parts. Yeah. Uh, so my father-in-law's a man named James Meredith. Uh, he was the first black man to integrate into the university of Mississippi in, um, the early sixties. So even though he didn't set out to become a part of the civil rights movement, uh, he, he really became a, an historical figure, um, four years after that. And I write about both of these, um, historical instances, quite a bit in the book. Uh, so, so like you said, Alexis's is, I mean, it's, it's like, is this book a spiritual mom or an historical memoir, uh, like a person, the answer is yes. And I loved it hybrid it's all the above. Um, and then, but in 66, he then, uh, led what became known as the Meredith March against fear, which, uh, you know, we actually just had the anniversary of the voting rights act, which, um, allowed for African Americans full voting rights, uh, in the U S uh, but in 66 there was, even though the voting rights act had passed, there was still a lot of fear amongst black voters.
Speaker 1 00:15:08 Uh, and so he decided to set out for a single man's March through the South. It started in Tennessee, but ended in, um, Mississippi at the state Capitol. And so he intended just to March by himself, um, and, and to, to really help equip black voters, um, uh, to not fear, um, that, which that, which had happened to them, uh, when they had tried to vote vote before. And, uh, but on the second day of the March, he was shot, uh, he was shot by a white supremacist. And, um, the result of that, I mean, there were a number of results, but the result of that was that, uh, was that different leaders from the civil rights movement. So Martin Luther King jr. Stokely Carmichael different leaders came, especially from the Southern Christian leadership coalition, the SCLC. And they began to March for him while he was in the hospital recuperating.
Speaker 1 00:16:00 And so that single man's, uh, March or walk turned into the last greatest March of the civil rights movement, um, as far as what historians call it. Um, so, so that was really the last one that was also then the birth of the black power movement. So I'm getting into historical tangents, but a couple years ago, uh, I flew out to Mississippi to visit the family, but specifically to interview my father-in-law for the book. And, um, on our last day there, we were driving around Jackson and, uh, he just kept asking me, I remember we went to tug Lu college and we went, um, through the Chick-fil-A drive through and through all these different places. And he kept asking me a single question. He kept, he kept saying, why are you writing this book? And, and I was like, why am I writing this book?
Speaker 1 00:16:49 Well, because I got a book contract, why am I writing this book? Um, because white people need to understand the issues of race, have something to do with them. Why am I writing this book? And again, all these were different instances. Why am I writing this book? Because, uh, because freedom needs to happen for my black and Brown brothers and sisters, and every single time that he would ask, and I would answer, I would not be producing, um, or giving the answer that he wanted me to give. And, or that was really behind why the why of the book and, and it wasn't, um, until months later, um, and, and really also months later after meeting, um, mama, Ruby sales, um, who was also a big part of the civil rights movement, and she's still alive, uh, but meeting Ruby sales probably six months later, um, and mama Ruby saying to a group of us, um, that justice was for every single one of us, uh, that justice, because
Speaker 0 00:17:51 Because justice at the root of justice is wholeness and his redemption that that is not something that we do for other people, but it's something that we do for ourselves. And so for me, why am I writing this book? Well, I'm writing it for me and I'm writing it. Um, the, the byproduct of that is that is that I do hope that all of those different things that I mentioned and that I answered happened, but at the root of it, it's, it's for my own justice and redemption. And that's true for every single one of us. And I think that if we then begin to believe and grasp and gravitate toward this idea that justice and wholeness and redemption is for every single one of us, then we can't help, but want it for everyone else. Then we begin to actually lean into the beloved community.
Speaker 0 00:18:39 Then we begin to actually believe in the amigo day. Then we begin to actually say, Oh, when boom two, you and I are connected. And we're simply connected because of the web of humanity that connects us. And that's it. And so, because we're humans, I'm human and you're human, that's all it is. And so that's the, why isn't, I just, I just love that so much. Um, because I think for so many of us who have lived a life inside of this dominant culture, I feel like gaining or fighting for justice in not something that we a think about very often or be feel like we have had to think about very often. And that doesn't mean that we're all whole, that doesn't mean that we're all living inside of, of true justice. I think it's just because it hasn't been pointed out that we're not as readily as it does for our black and Brown brothers and sisters, um, who continually have someone pointing out to them that they are not experiencing justice.
Speaker 0 00:19:56 And so, um, so thank you for that. I kind of want to walk backwards because, so I'm, I just feel like I'm saying, like, please get the book. So for those of you who are going to read this book, please get the book that's kind of at the end of it, but Kara and I talked about maybe, um, she's gonna maybe, uh, humor me a little bit and kind of walk backwards through the book and through this story. Um, and so when you talked about being able to go with mama Ruby, um, on your trip and you went to the museum and you had a connection with Mamie Hill, can you tell us about what you experienced in those moments? Um, because
Speaker 1 00:20:48 I, I, I haven't been to the museum, but I did recently read a book by a journalist all about her son and her son's story and the, and the movement around it. And, um, yeah. So can you just tell us about that connection that you had with that mama? Yeah, I mean, this was such a, it was such a tender moment. Um, but, uh, I remember I was pushing my friend, Shannon, Shannon Dingell. She's also a writer. She would be phenomenal to have on your show if you're ever interested, but Shannon, Shannon and I were making our way through, um, the, uh, national museum of African American history and culture in DC. Uh, and it's laid out in such a way that you start at the bottom, you start in the, in the pit of the museum and the basement, uh, and you go through, um, the, the, um, the slave ship.
Speaker 1 00:21:42 You, you are in there it's as if you're walking through it. And for she and I, who both identify as white, it was a, it was a different experience than for many of our, um, friends who were also on what was called the Ruby will whoop pilgrimage, which happens through a consulting organization called freedom road with Lisa Sharon Harper. Um, and, and I remember then pushing Shannon into, uh, this sacred room, uh, this, this room that was closed off and only a certain amount of people were allowed in you. Weren't allowed to take pictures. Uh, you were asked to be quiet, uh, and, and there in the corner was the casket for Emmett, till who was a young, um, a young black boy, African American boy, um, who, whose death really was, was, uh, was part of what sparked the civil rights movement. I mean, there are a number of different reasons.
Speaker 1 00:22:35 Um, but, but there, there was, there was this instant connection for me, um, with, and through the grief and sadness that happened, but this connection that happened with Mamie till Mobley, who, um, his, his, his mother, and, uh, she would not take no for an answer. And so she continued to fight and she continued to stand up. And, um, she, she continued to, I mean, she continued to fight for his life that it would be recognized and valued. And, um, I mean, that, for me working backwards, I, as a white woman, you know, when I became a parent, I was, I just was like, Oh, how wonderful. I have little caramel babies, little mixed babies. Um, and I very quickly realized, and really this was through my own learning and, um, uh, friendship, especially with friends of color, um, that, uh, there's an onus it and an expectation when, um, for all of us, but certainly for those of us who are raising black and Brown kids, um, that we understand what it means to raise black and Brown kids in America
Speaker 0 00:23:46 Today. And, you know, the, so, so when I talk about that moment with Mamie, I mean, is it any different for me in raising young, young Brown boys in a world that does not always benefit them? That is not always in their favor. Yeah. I want to keep, I want to keep on this subject for a minute. Um, and I'd like for, I'd like for you to kind of talk about it as, um, as someone who's, uh, in his family, the history is so important, but also someone who's living right now raising, um, raising interracial boys. Um, I, so just quickly I read the blood of him until a few months ago, and I just kept saying over and over again to my husband, I cannot believe how similar our time is to this time that, um, that they lived in. I can't believe politically how similar, I can't believe how, how racially similar, you know, the tensions are.
Speaker 0 00:24:58 And, and just looking back at how many decades had passed, and that's not to say nothing's better, but I just was struck by, um, by how similar it was. And when I, when a mod Marbury's death became public, I was, I was surprisingly a wreck that whole weekend. Um, and I was a wreck for his mother, um, because it was one of those times when I just kind of finally saw myself as the mother of a black boy in America. And what that could look like, not in 1950s, Mississippi, but now what that could, what that could look like. And it's not that I want to believe that I have ignored the deaths of other black and Brown men and boys. Um, but for whatever reason, emotionally, I was struck very hard by his
Speaker 2 00:26:02 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:26:04 And that emotionally struck me. But I also, um, was struck because I had the opportunity to go to view the body of George Floyd. Um, he, they had an open casket here in Houston before they had a Memorial service, and I immediately thought of Mamie, right? I thought this is here because we can not let ourselves not see the injustice. We can't let ourselves not see the violence. We can't let ourselves not see what's happening in America
Speaker 2 00:26:44 Today. And, um, and I just, because I know that
Speaker 1 00:26:53 There are people on all ends of the spectrum who will hear this, who are listening to the news every day. And there are many people, especially many white people who would say, Oh, gee, whiz,
Speaker 2 00:27:06 We've come. This is nowhere near 1950s, Mississippi. Right. Um, but I think of a mod Arbery's mama.
Speaker 1 00:27:19 Yeah. And I think of George Floyd's family.
Speaker 2 00:27:21 And I think, I, I can't say that for me. I can't, I can't see what I see and say that for me. So can you compare
Speaker 1 00:27:32 Hair and contrast a little bit of, of, of
Speaker 2 00:27:37 Kind of that moment with
Speaker 1 00:27:39 Mamie till, and then what you're seeing today as a mom,
Speaker 2 00:27:43 Mom of Brown boys?
Speaker 1 00:27:48 Yeah. What a great question. Um, you know, I think that there's, it's a, both fanned, right? Um, uh, there is nothing, there's nothing new under the sun and yes, we have, um, we have made great strides in our country taking great strides in our country, uh, toward equality and racism and white supremacy, uh, still exist. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:28:16 And, um, uh,
Speaker 1 00:28:18 Slavery, uh, for African Americans does not happen in the physical sense. And I'm just gonna, I'm continuing on here. But, um, I mean, the reality is that the systems that are, are in place in our country today have manifested and twisted over the years. And so it's, we may not be seeing against slavery and, or, um, Jim Jim Crow laws. Uh, we may not be saying public lynchings as much, although even that has been something as of late, that is, um, making the news again. Um, but to ignore, um, and, and, or to, um, not even realize that, um, that again, the systems, um, the systems that are in place in our country in particular within, uh, the education system, uh, within the prison system, um, when it comes, so when it comes to law enforcement and education, I mean, that's what people are crying out for is that there would be equity. There would be a quality across the board. And so was, was Mamie till Mobley. Was she saying anything different? No. Um, when, when, um, riots and protests are going on, it can be hard for us to see, um, and for us to gulp down. And
Speaker 0 00:29:42 It might be that many of us are feeling like we don't understand. And yet I think that this is where the invitation is to, um, listen and lean into what, um, into, into really, um, the, the whispering that is happening, um, and to lean into hard truths, uh, to lean into those maybe who don't look like us to hear what they're really saying, Oh, sorry about that, guys. We lost Kira, but hang tight. We, she did come back. And so we've finished this interview and Seth is amazing and has just stitched this all together for us. So here's Kara. Okay. I'm back with Karen Meredith, Kara. I'm so glad that you came back today. Thank you. I'm glad to be back. I'm sitting on my bed on top of a heating pad, just trying to get good wifi. So life is good. That sounds really wonderful, except for the heating pad part, probably because it's like 140 degrees in Houston, or, you know, spills, it feels something stupid like that.
Speaker 0 00:30:47 I'm sure it's probably, Oh, my screen is telling me 93 with the feels like is probably a hundred and some change, but so all of that sounds really good except for the heating pad. Um, Kara and I are doing this back to back days because we had scheduling issues and technology issues, but I am so thrilled that she is willing to finish this conversation. And where we left off was talking, you were talking about, um, people who identify as white accepting an invitation, hearing the whispers from people who don't look like them, that, you know, there is, um, something to learn that people in the dominant culture don't may not recognize it. I think, I think it just may not be instinctual. You know, um, if you've, if you've never had someone kind of stepping on your foot every day, you don't know to say, Hey, stop stepping on her foot.
Speaker 0 00:31:47 Um, it's, it's not necessarily instinctual, but one of the things, one of the stories in your book that I feel like encapsulates that idea is, and that I certainly could relate to was you share how you were in an airport watching the news of the white supremacist riots really in, um, in Charlottesville. Um, and, and this was over statues. I know that some people kind of think this is a brand new 20, 20 thing. This is not a brand new 2020 thing. Um, but can you describe what you were viewing both on the news and around you and then kind of what that sprung up in you emotionally? Yeah, well, the, the, the context, the timing also was really, um, important. I had
Speaker 1 00:32:40 This, I was literally flying out of, um, Jackson flying home, um, having just visited my, um, my husband's side of the family having just interviewed my father-in-law. Uh, it was in an, it had been a very intense trip. Uh, it was, uh, it was a, um, a fulfilling trip. And I mean, I wrote about it quite a bit in my book, but it was a very emotionally intense time as well. And so I think I was already very, I was very eager to get home to my husband and our sons, um, and, and to, um, to, to, I mean, to, to be with my people again, to be with them. Um, but I was also, uh, more than keenly aware of the realities. And, um, I mean, in talking to my father in law, who at that point was, I mean, I think he was probably 84, 85, uh, he's nearing 90 now, but, um, you know, just again, realizing that, which happened for him in the sixties in particular, and, and after that, he, his entire life, um, this is real and this, it has never gone away.
Speaker 1 00:33:50 Like you were just saying, it's that, which we are living in right now within civil unrest within, um, this new civil rights movement. Uh, there's so many different names. Uh, I even, I even just heard last week, we're living in two global pandemics right now, we're living in a global pandemic of the coronavirus and we're living in the global pandemic of, um, of racial tensions. And both of these are pandemics. And particularly with, particularly for, um, the United States and for our context as us citizens and, or as people who live here on us soil, maybe I should say that. Um, but a friend once said to me, she said years ago, she said, once you see you can't not see anymore. And that is what was happening in the airport that day, as I was trying to fly out is that I was watching the destruction.
Speaker 1 00:34:39 I was watching, um, the, uh, lives that were lost. I was watching the fighting, um, and it was absolutely heartbreaking to see the scene before me. And I remember just sitting there and tears streaming down my face as CNN, black blared in the background, and yet simultaneously looking around the airport and nobody else seemed to even realize what was going on. And there I was bawling in the middle of the airport. Just feel my, just absolutely enveloped by that, which was happening on the scene on the screen, because that, which was happening, there was no different from, um, that, which happened to my father in law, uh, 60 years ago that which continues to happen to our black and Brown brothers and sisters stayed that, which is the reality for my husband and for our sons. And, and, uh, it, it just, it me, I mean,
Speaker 0 00:35:38 It broke me right now. So it, it, the reason it, it struck me so much is because so personally is, um, I had a really, I had a really similar experience recently. And so I mentioned earlier, um,
Speaker 2 00:35:57 That I went yeah,
Speaker 0 00:35:59 View the body of George Floyd in Houston, um, is his hometown is here. And so they really did a, uh, a great deal to honor him. Um, even in the midst of the pandemic, they were, um, acutely aware of what it would look like for people to come and view. Um, but it was still really important. And so, um, that meant that there were some numbers were saying in the, in the neighborhood of 6,000 people who walked past his casket that day, but it meant
Speaker 2 00:36:38 I'm taking
Speaker 0 00:36:41 These shuttles that were barely, um, you know, had barely had people on them, you know, so shuttle after showed us a waiting in line for a shuttle and then riding the shuttle, of course, with gloves and masks and everything else, and then waiting in line outside. And this was in June, in Houston and it's a thousand degrees.
Speaker 2 00:37:01 And I like that.
Speaker 0 00:37:04 I had just read this book on Emmett till, and there was something that struck me of, of, of this, like almost to make sure that I personally could not
Speaker 2 00:37:16 And see what was happening.
Speaker 0 00:37:19 Um, and so I, I went by myself, my husband, um, was staying with our kids and it was actually our anniversary. And so this is, you know, I, I, I went to do this, but I was driving home.
Speaker 2 00:37:31 Mmm Hmm. And
Speaker 0 00:37:34 Getting to Christian radio. And what struck me was that even on our local, one of our local Christian radio stations, there was no
Speaker 2 00:37:49 Talk about what was happening in town.
Speaker 0 00:37:55 I was driving home and even listening to the traffic report. I thought, this is it. This is in my mind, it was kind of like, this is their chance to show me, to show our community, to show our city, to show our country, even, you know, these days radios are broadcast all over on line. And I thought, surely in the traffic report, I was there surely in the traffic report, they will mention something about this historic moment that's happening in our country. And the grief that our community is experiencing, that our nation is experiencing. And, um, in those moments was nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I could, I could hardly believe it and I could hardly contain. I felt like now I'm grieving multiple things. Right. The, the grief is layering on top of grief is layering on top of grief. And part of the grief that's added is that, um, we, and I'll just say, as a Christian community, I feel like at large, um, have not really, um, grieved or participated in the lament.
Speaker 0 00:39:07 You mentioned that earlier, you know, we just haven't participated in, in the lament, um, of, of our brothers and sisters around us. And, um, and it was heartbreaking. It was, it was a heartbreaking experience. And so I could relate to your experience in the airport because, cause I, what I wanted to say and what I may have said to friends later on the phone was like, how can, how can you just go about your business today? Right. It was that feeling of, I don't really get it. Yeah. I don't really understand. But the flip of that is that I will say there, um, I would say when we don't know, we don't know. So once we've seen, we can't unsee it, but I would say until we see until that moment, when our eyes kind of get opened, we do all of us do. Right.
Speaker 0 00:40:09 Just kind of go about our business. Um, and you talk about how, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I feel like your book's message was pretty explicit. That that was basically you, um, before you, um, met and got involved and fell in love with your husband. And so I feel like if you can take a few moments and maybe this will, um, this might wrap us up, but could you talk to those of us in the dominant culture who have to rely on a learned experience rather than a lived experience. And we haven't learned yet, there's some of us who aren't there, we haven't accepted the invitation yet. Maybe we haven't even heard it, but speak to people who don't know what they don't know, specifically speak to white people who don't know what they don't know. So if you are still with us by this point, um, then I guess I would, I would encourage you to lean into the discomfort and the curiosity, and, um, maybe the heartstrings and the mind wrestling that is going on within your body right now, all the different feelings that are happening in you and inside you, it's so many different levels and to begin
Speaker 1 00:41:34 To pay attention to that. And, um, to then to, to heed the invitation, um, to heed the invitation, to look around and to notice, um, those that you have had the privilege not to notice anymore, um, when you then hear the word privilege and that spikes something in you, and it makes you feel uncomfortable to begin to explore that when, um, when we then say, yeah, uh, there are w what would it look like for you for all of us? Because again, this is a, this is a journey, but to, um, to really dig into noticing and to notice the systems that, um, have benefited, uh, folks who look maybe more like me than, um, they did, then, then the systems that benefit those of us who were white then, um, as opposed to the systems that benefit our black and Brown brothers and sisters, to lean into that and to explore that, um, to explore the imitation to, um, to, uh, just, I feel like I'm talking in circles here, but, um, to, again, begin to see, and, um, maybe to get proximate and to lean into pain, um, and into what is being said, especially by those who have experienced, um, the pain of racial injustice, what does that mean?
Speaker 1 00:42:59 So, um, it's an invitation to start noticing, and it's an invitation to start listening, and it's an invitation to realize that perhaps this story isn't, um, isn't about us and that's an okay thing. In fact, it's actually a very good and healthy thing to realize.
Speaker 0 00:43:18 Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's really good. Um,
Speaker 1 00:43:22 What are, I'm going to kind of put you on the spot for a second, if you can, if you can think of some, I know that your book has some in the bag and I may pull from that, but are on that off the top of your head, are there any, um, books or podcasts or documentaries or anything like that that you feel, man, this really shaped me or this was so important, or if I could tell someone, if you're only gonna spend a few hours look at this, this work
Speaker 0 00:43:52 And, um, and we can link
Speaker 1 00:43:54 I'll link all of those, you know, in the, in the notes. But the reason I'm asking that I'm just going to be real blunt. I've had some conversations with my white friends, um, and, and I, I actually pointed it out in different podcasts. There was listening to, um, NPRs code switch, and they were talking about how these days it's something, the status lost on me right now, but it's something crazy, like 75% or something of white people have zero close relationships with anyone of, of any color at all. Um, and so I actually had to look it up. It's a 2016 Washington post stat, but I have had those conversations with my white friends. And so the reason I am asking for books or documentaries, or works or podcasts or other things like that is because immediately, right now, there are probably 75% of white people in America who can't just call their girlfriend or their buddy and say, I know my, I may not have listened before, but tell me about all of your experiences.
Speaker 1 00:44:59 Tell me about microaggressions that you experienced. Tell me, you know, yeah. There are people who are not as privileged to have those deep intimate relationships with friends of color. Um, and so they may not get the personal experiences of their neighbor or their friend or their, um, congregation member. Um, which I think is, uh, so that's a whole other topic for another podcast, but, um, that's the reason I'm just being blunt and I'm just saying three fourths of white Americans can't they only, they probably don't even have anyone in their contact list that they can call and say, Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry, but I, my eyes are open now and I'm listening. Tell me, right. So we're going to start from where we are and we're going to, we're going to read, we're going to delve in, we're gonna watch movies. We're gonna do these things, and we're going to take some of those from you.
Speaker 1 00:45:52 Um, where can we start learning and accepting that invitation? Yeah, I mean, and well, from what you just said, uh, the privilege to choose is the greatest privilege of all right, and that, and, and that's, I mean, whether it comes to interracial friendships, the, the privilege to not have to notice and to be able to continue to stay in friendship with people who look like us, no matter how we identify racially, that is a privilege, it's a privilege not to have to exercise, pursuing friendship, uh, interracial friendships. Uh, so I mean, there's kind of a flip side to that. Um, but all of this is a privilege. It's a privilege not to have to engage. Um, so obviously we could continue talking about this. Uh, and I do talk about that a little bit in my book, but I'm just like privilege of choice, man, greatest privilege.
Speaker 1 00:46:41 There is. Um, so as far as it goes, there is a pretty complete list at the back of my book. So, um, yes, uh, pick up my book, the color of life, uh, and re go to the back. And there are four sections. Um, I will say though that most of those books that were listed there, they were really formative for me. Um, when I was first starting my journey. So a lot of those books are not as recent. Um, so if I were to recommend books right now, um, I within, um, kind of general sphere, Ebrum X Kendi is, is changing the way, um, America in particular, the United States engages in conversations of race and of the truth is, is that he's not saying anything new, but he's speaking truth to systems and everything that he says continues to go back to the systems.
Speaker 1 00:47:31 And so how is it, um, you know, if we are going to, we are going to continue to have racial inequality, uh, we are going to continue to have white supremacy if we don't deal with systems that are, that are benefiting some, but not all. So what does it mean to, um, to actually see and notice and engage and change and fight for equity within systems? So Ebro mix candy. I highly recommend just anything he puts out, uh, within the Christian sphere. Um, I'm just going to give a plug for Brenda Salter. McNeil's upcoming release. It releases, um, in just a couple of weeks. I'm not sure when this episode will air, but her new book is called becoming brave. And, um, she speaks truth, and it's the same thing. She's speaking truth to systems, but, um, for Salter McNeil, who's a pastor at quest church in Seattle.
Speaker 1 00:48:21 Um, who's been doing justice and reconciliation work within the church context for nearly almost 30 years, over 30 years. Um, we have a privilege to listen to someone who's been there and I appreciated, I actually, um, read her book and then reviewed it for Christianity today, but I appreciate it so much because there was an authenticity and a vulnerability that was in her writing just as, uh, her pastoral self came out and she calls the church to, um, to, to really becoming brave and entering into the sphere. So her book is powerful and prophetic, and I highly recommend it as far as podcasts. I love code switch. Um, certainly, I mean, NPR is like the, the King or queen have everyone say of putting out fat worthy conversations, but, um, I would recommend code switch. Um, and especially for those of us who are white, what does it mean to learn from our brothers and sisters of color?
Speaker 1 00:49:24 I mean, uh, yes, you can read my book, but I'm a white person. And so you dare not read my book unless you are picking up a companion book that is written Ben that has been written by a person of color to read alongside. Um, because otherwise, if we're just reading books that are written by people who look like us, for those of us who are of European American descent, then we're missing the point. So FYI, um, but they've also NPR also just put out, um, which is getting a lot of traction right now, but the dear white parents podcast, um, which I highly recommend. And, um, certainly if you identify as white and are entering this space, they are doing some great work around that, which is pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 0 00:50:04 That's awesome. I actually have Brenda Salter McNeil's book in my office right now, I too was given an advanced copy by her PR people. And so I'm like crossing my fingers that I
Speaker 1 00:50:18 We'll be able to speak with her as well.
Speaker 0 00:50:22 Excited about that. And, um, I think I'm, I'm excited to read review cause I'm a subscriber to CT mag. Um, but she was also interviewed by Mark Lambertson on his podcast conversing and he is just like so thoughtful in the conversations that he has. And so I'm really excited. There's like a lot of excitement for me swarming around that new book of hers. And so I'm really excited to pick that one up, but I will probably also note some of the ones that you have listed in your, um, recommendations in the bag, because a lot of them, a lot of the same titles have been formative for me as well. Um, absolutely. So I really appreciate that. Especially bringing to the forefront, some of those, um, some of those works that are currently influencing you. Ebrum X Kendi, actually. I, um, can you get him on your podcast? Oh my goodness. Could you? That'd be great.
Speaker 3 00:51:19 I got nothing
Speaker 0 00:51:20 Perfect fans over here though. My head look at what he just put out, look at this. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's crazy. Right. Like my husband is a little irritated with me because I'm reading, um, the original stamps. So he read the remake and I'm reading the original stamp. It's only like 500 pages or something like that. So I take it to the pool and my husband gets so frustrated. He was like, you're ruining this book. And I'm like, but I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying it. It's a well-loved book. But I interviewed a man named Malcolm Foley, who was the soon Reverend doctor from, uh, Baylor. And he is doing his dissertation on the history of lynching. And his question that he asks is how did black Protestants affirm their own dignity in a world that was poised for their death? And so when I spoke with him, he actually said stamped from the beginning was the book that changed his perspective on race.
Speaker 0 00:52:20 And, um, and I thought this is from a black pastor who is also a scholar who is doing his work on the history of racial lynching in America. And he said, Abraham Candy's work is, is really what, what, you know, changed his perspective on race. And so yes, all of these things are so much to think about and so much to talk about so much to read about. Um, and I also just on a personal note, I appreciate your, um, blunt newness to say, if you're picking up, if we're picking up your book, we ought to also be picking up a companion book by an author of color. Um, because I just think it's important. And the last plug I'll say about all of that is, um, one of the ways that we can open our eyes, I feel like is to read authors of color about topics that are not related to race. Oh, absolutely. Because this helps our, well, our perspective become even more well rounded, right? So pick up black theologians and parenting and you know,
Speaker 1 00:53:26 All of this and let's fill our minds with, um, with let's fill our minds with the color of life, right? With these, all of these people around us who make up, um, who make up who we are. So thank you so much, Kara, for finishing our conversation today. I'm so glad that our technology worked. Oh my gosh, to get this done. Um, can you tell us to wrap up where we can find you to follow more of your conversations and where we can find your book? Absolutely. So my website is Kara meredith.com. Um, I am on Facebook and Instagram at Kara Meredith rights and then Twitter at Caremark 54. Although I was just told yesterday, I need to stop giving all of those places out and just focus on one because I can't keep up, man. I can't keep up. It's it's too much. Uh, otherwise my book is available, wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 00:54:20 Um, so you can go and find it. I will give a specific plug that if you go just to my website again, Kara meredith.com, simply my name. Um, I am selling extra stock of books that I had from spring speaking engagements that were cancelled from Kobe. So right now, until I run out, I think I have 37 more books left a hundred percent of proceeds of book from books sold from my website alone. We'll go to the Swan dream project, which is a phenomenal organization. Uh she's um, Ayesha is the founder. She's a black ballerina. And, um, she seeks to provide equity, uh, for young black girls. Um, but she has a phenomenal organization. You can go check her out. So a hundred percent of proceeds from books sold from my website will go toward the squandering project. So help me write her a big fat check.
Speaker 1 00:55:14 That is awesome. Kara, thank you so much. I will put all of those links in the notes for this episode, um, because you know, people are probably jogging or writing or something like that. Um, and jogging or driving and, um, yeah. And we'll get all that there. I love, I love that you're doing that and I'm sorry that the engagements got canceled, but maybe don't pick up a grown up. I know we live in now, right? Not a friend, any of us. So thank you so much, Carrie. I appreciate it. Thank you my friend talk soon.
Speaker 2 00:55:47 Right?
Speaker 1 00:55:50 Um, so thank you again so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe. So you won't miss an episode, share the link with your friends. You can visit
[email protected]. And until next time, this is Alexis B SETI, remembering to do well for ourselves so we can do good for others.
Speaker 2 00:56:10 <inaudible>.
