[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, so I don't know, is it. Is it nice weather besides the severe weather that you guys just had? So we're recording this mid March. Probably folks will still be reporting on some of the things that have hit the south in the last couple days. But besides that, generally, has it been pretty. Is it pretty in the south? In your part of the South?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: In the spring it is really pretty. And like today, if I look out my window, there is not a cloud in the sky. We have so many birds that have returned. And so it just sounds like a jungle outside with all the bird noises everywhere. But the best thing is that the people that lived here before us planted a ton, maybe too many ornamental trees in the front yard. We've actually gotten rid of some of them. But we have a tree in the Southeast called an eastern red bud, and it puts out these brilliant. Probably. I think fuchsia might be the right color buds this time of year. We also have a crab apple, which is like a magenta bud, and then two cherries, which are these light pinkish white buds. And so it smells like heaven. It looks like some kind of like Candyland scene in my front yard because of all the bright colors. It's amazing.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Okay, so I'm with Meryl. Her kind of. She's in Georgia, I'm in Houston. And we're enjoying the beauty, I think the beauty and the wonder that is spring in the South. And I really want to just press pause and not think about what it's going to feel like here and for you and probably just a matter of a few weeks. But when we moved to Houston 15 years ago, almost exactly we. For my husband's job, which we will chat about a little bit today since drawing my work.
It was an unusually cool winter, and we even had, like, a few flurries, which, like, almost never happens in Houston. We did actually get some this past winter, but then April hit. So, like March, April. And I remember walking. We had baby babies at the time. These, our twins were literally just a few months old. And we would walk in the stroller all the time. And I would look at my husband almost every day and I would say, this is when all companies need to have recruitment trips to Houston is in March and April. And don't tell them what the rest of the year looks like. Like, don't tell your recruits, don't tell your candidates that the rest of the year is like hell on earth. Because March and April are gorgeous. So, yes, we are in the same, very similar place. We have blooms happening in the yard and the birds are back, as you said, all of the things.
And then we're just waiting, you know, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna push pause here as we wait for this anyway, to ramp up.
Meryl, speaking of all of that, I read your book at the pool over the last couple of weeks in March, and it felt, it was great. And then at the same time, I'm like, it felt. Felt like part of a map to a place where I don't really want to be.
And that is because I shared with you prerecord. My husband is on in the job market for the first time in over 15 years. And this feels just very disorienting in so many ways. And I want, I want to say that because you start, gosh, there's so many things I want to say, but you start the book sharing about your own job loss, which I appreciated so much. And I want us to. Maybe we'll come back to this. But when my husband shared with his community on LinkedIn that he was on the job market again a few months ago, the response that he got was overwhelming. It was so encouraging and affirming. And I remember asking him about it, and he said, this stigma that can exist in losing your job, getting laid off, you know, this ha. This is happening. There's so, so many in our, in our city and in our industry happening right now. That's kind of crazy. He's like, that stigma basically doesn't have any place. And that felt so good to me because I haven't always looked at it that way. You know, is this something to be embarrassed about? Is this something that should bring shame?
But the way that you, you bring it up at the beginning, yes, it can feel devastating, but also it is a part of work life. So anyway, I've given a long intro, but we're going to talk about all the things today. And your book is called When Work Hurts. And that even feels like a little bit teary because I'm just like, why does it, why does it have to be this way? But for so many of us in different seasons, it is that way.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: That is so true. It's unfortunate. And, you know, I meet a handful of people every now and then, Alexis, who are like, actually, my work has been a dream. Like, I have, like, the minor disappointments and, like, the minor frustrations, but, like, I haven't experienced anything like you describe in the book. And my first response is like, lucky you.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Yes. Second, praise God.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Praise God. Third, I want to caution you that that may not be a reality for the rest of your life, because we live in a broken world that is filled with broken systems and broken people operating in those systems. And that just means there is just so much possibility for hurt in the world. And so obviously, I don't want people to encounter that. I think in my acknowledgement sections of the book, I have a note for my husband and my two boys. It says, I hope my work in the world makes you experience less work hurt in yours.
Because I don't want that. I don't want my kids to grow up into a world where there are toxic bosses and exploitative practices and mass layoffs. Like, I. I mean, I know those things are going to be a reality probably until Jesus comes back, but can we, like, turn the dial down on this a little bit? Like, that's what I'd love to see happen.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think what.
I think maybe where I'd love for you to start, and like I said, I don't necessarily want to get in the weeds. I want to do some of these broad, broad strokes, but because you start there, and I was actually just. My husband and I were taking a walk this morning in the beautiful weather before. Before we logged on, and I was telling him a little bit about what you shared in that first chapter. And what strikes me in that is that part of the work hurt that many of us experience is one of the aspects of this story you shared where things were good.
Like, this wasn't, like, something that you were, like, dreading, you know, in your own job loss that you shared, you weren't dreading this. This wasn't like, oh, my goodness, I can see this coming from a mile away, you know, whatever. And it's like, you know, you. You walk in to work for some. For some of us, from some folks, you walk into work and it's like, you have no idea when you fix your coffee that morning that you're going to be packing your stuff in a box that afternoon.
And that is happening. I think I say more and more. I think maybe it's just one of those. Maybe I'm noticing it more and more because of our situation right now, but that feels like a particularly kind of sharp burn. You know, that you think everything is great and it's. And then, and then it's gone. Or you find out it's not.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Oh yeah. I mean, it's devastating. And you know, for those who haven't read the book yet, I talk about how I lost a job the day after I had a positive performance review that was like, we love your work. It's going awesome. No, no complaints. Keep it up. And then the very next day, right? And you're just like, what, what just happened?
And so, yeah, it feels like a bait and switch. Like, definitely felt blindsided. Didn't see this coming. But I mean, I did a little investigation. So we have like the US Bureau of Labor Statistics that can give us information about job turnover, whether that's voluntary or not. So like voluntary is we leave a job. Involuntary is we're laid off or fired or the company closes.
So we look at those stats and they're, I mean, there's kind of like this constant undercurrent of terminations happening in the world of work in the US But I think that we, we've paid more attention.
I think like We've got the 24 hour news cycle, right? So we hear when mass layoffs are happening in certain industries or big company, we have LinkedIn, right? So we see when different industries are laying off or different people have been getting laid off. And then we had like in the pandemic, you know, a ton of people lost their jobs and were laid off during the pandemic. Shortly after we had their great resignation where people were just quitting their jobs because their jobs weren't meeting their expectations and needs. And I think it's just become more commonplace that we just, we hear about it more for all of these reasons. And unfortunately, at the time that we're recording, I mean, I can't open a news app and not hear about some major layoffs right now. It's like mostly at the federal government level or nonprofits that are tied up with usaid. And you know, it's really challenging to think about that, but at the same time, I know other people and other businesses that are losing their jobs because of layoffs and downsizing and it's, I mean, for me, it's never, it's never not hard to hear about that. Like, I, I just don't think I'm gonna be that person that is gonna be like, oh, that just made so much sense from, like, an economic perspective or a business perspective. I just. I don't think I'm gonna get there. I think I'm just always gonna feel really, really badly for the worker, even though I understand that there are these, like, massive, very complex situations around, like, the business decisions. I was talking to another podcast host last week. I was like, you know, I want to be in the world where we've done every possible thing to avoid this. Right. Because of the people that get hurt in the process.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Well, and it's interesting that you bring up the. The federal layoffs, you know, that are happening right now. So there. And. And the. And the complexities around all of these. So a couple of things, you know, and I think, again, my ear has been more attuned to these things lately than it had been in the past.
But one of them is this kind of. Because I'm with you on, like, I think I'm always gonna. I'm always gonna feel bad for the worker. You know, you talk. There's. There's. Things are so complex. You talk about give statistics of, like, CEO pay versus, like, regular worker pay and all that kind of thing, or like, we're seeing these, like, mass layoffs. And Houston has a lot of industries, but you see some particular industries. We're seeing these, like, big, big companies that have these massive layoffs, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people. But you're like, wait a minute. Oh, yeah, quick Google search tells me. I did remember that this is the same company that was reporting, like, record earnings the quarter before, you know, and you're like, okay, make it make sense. You know, like, what is that about? But then, you know, then you have, like, the federal layoffs where, you know, we've seen situations. I will say my husband has gotten feedback from some of the places where he's inquired about positions, and they're saying, like, yeah, this position doesn't exist anymore, but not necessarily because it's been directly affected by the layoff. But it's like we're in a financially precarious situation as an organization right now because funding has been cut or layoffs, meaning at this level, meaning all of these folks who were working in the federal government are now on the job market, so now they're looking for work in other places. And so all of it is very complex at a systems level, but it is. Really, really affects people at their everyday level. And. And that's. That's hard. Like, that's a really, really tough spot to be in.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it hits you on so many levels, right? Like if you're the person affected or it's your family member, you're talking about like the emotional pain there, right? Um, and you talked about, you know, the shame.
There are all kinds of emotional responses we can have to being laid off. And for me I, there was shame there for sure. Um, and it took a long time to overcome that.
And for some people, their work so bound up with their identity and so those pieces get really disrupted and have to be untangled and figured out over a long period of time. Then you have just like the very basic essentials of if you're a major earner in your family, you have with your job probably tied up your benefits. Maybe that's health insurance, maybe tuition benefits, retirement.
You know, the list can go on in terms of those types of things. But then also in your paycheck is your ability to pay for your mortgage or your rent, to pay for your kids, extracurricular activities, whatever it is, buy groceries. The very basic human things that we need to be able to do. And it's, I mean, I don't know, a lot of people that get laid off or that lose a job and then immediately go into something.
I mean we, I've talked to, there's one person that I interviewed for the book, they were employed the whole time and seeking for, seeking a new job while they were still employed. But it took two years to find a new job and a ton of interviews. And I don't want to discourage folks with that statistic. I mean it's just one person out of, you know, millions. But we, we are finding that for most people the job search is taking a few months and if you're let go and don't have severance, where does that money come from? You're not going to make that same salary getting a part time job at a retail store. I mean you got to do what you got to do. But it's, it's, you're not going to replace a salary on $15 an hour and not even getting full time hours probably there, right? You're probably going to be underemployed there, wanting full time work and limited to a part time role. So there's just, I mean it's just a hard and complex system that's so layered.
Jesus, come back and fix it, please.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Well, Jesus, come back and fix it.
One of the things, even if you are still employed or laid off or somewhere in between, which there is an in between, right? You talk about being in toxic work environments or having places where there are bosses that cause all kinds of problems or things like this.
And now we'll get some of these broader strokes. You talk about displacement and feeling like. Or experiencing things similar to exile.
This was really interesting. So you and I both have been theology students. We've both, you know, studied these kinds of stories. And I go through this period where I have kind of a love hate relationship with Ezra Nehemiah. There are. There are seasons when I like, this feels like the most rich story. And I love everything about it. And I'm a cheerleader for Ezra. And there are seasons where I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is so wild. I don't know about this story, you know, but. And I've seen it utilized to help us with a lot process and explain a lot of different context and seasons and circumstances in life. I don't know that I've ever seen it used to talk about work in the way that you did. So I'm curious if you can give us like kind of some broad or back, you know, broad strokes or background about that. But this feeling of exile that you talk, that you talk about felt very, I don't know, it felt familiar to me. The different. The different ways that we can feel exiled that have to do with our work. So will you talk about that a little bit?
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So the book actually started. I mean, the first seedling for the book came while I was listening to the book of Nehemiah.
And I mean, I remember it so vividly. Walking in our neighborhoods in Grand Rapids, Michigan, on a beautiful day, not a snowy, you know, snow up to your knees day. Those can be beautiful. But not my favorite. But anyway, I'm listening to Nehemiah on the Dwell app, and I get to Nehemiah 3, which I assure you, I had never paid much attention to before because it reads so much like some of those census passages that are just like your eyes glaze over because it's so repetitive. But I was listening to it, and for the first time I really got a sense of, oh, there's something really cool happening here. So Nehemiah 3 is the chapter in Nehemiah where the people of God who have returned from exile are coming together and they're working to rebuild the wall together. But what stood out to me is as I listened to it was I was getting this image of people from all different walks of life and say, you've got, you know, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, you know, to use those, like little colloquialism there, to use that lingo side by side, working on different sections of the wall. And I was like, oh, this is so cool. Like, they're all contributing. It doesn't matter. You don't have to be a stone mason or a carpenter. You are contributing through your work for this big project that God has invited you into. And I was like, why? Why? I've read so many faith and workbooks. Why has nobody talked about this story that I could find?
And so the book actually started out, it was going to be kind of just a theology of faith and work from the perspective of Ezra and Nehemiah. And then, you know, you start to do the contextual study and you're like, oh, this. I have to go back to the exile. I have to go back to the fall of Jerusalem. And you know, before you know it, you're just like, oh, there's so much, so much here.
But yeah, when I was thinking about the exile a little bit more, I. I thought about just the. The pain of the exiles. There's that. There's that psalm. And I talk about it in the book in a couple of places. And maybe the listeners remember this one. There's a psalm that, like, you know, by the shores of Babylon, we sang our songs. And then at the end it's like, and we wish we could like, bash the Babylonians babies heads against the rocks. And you're just like, hello. That was not where I was expecting that to go. It was this very violent image. And you're just like, oh, there's so much emotion. And I think I had never really sat until I just kind of did some study through that period. And I really sat with the emotion of that period of time, of, number one, having your city surrounded, siege works built around it. And then, you know, the Babylonians come to conquer the city and then they burn it to the ground, right? Like, that is just insane to me to think about that emotion. And I mean, and sadly, you know, just in recent months, we have seen that in the Los Angeles area, right? And have people that we know that have gone through that, that heartache of seeing their place just utterly destroyed, and just the brokenness and grief there over that. And then there's this being removed, displaced from your home.
And that idea resonates with me in a couple of ways. Number one, because I moved out of the Southeast when I was going to seminary, I moved from the Southeast where I had lived my whole life and went to college in the Southeast, and I moved to Chicago and I felt so out of place. And things didn't feel the same internally with respect to how I thought about home and how I related to my family and how people from home related to me. It was just. There was just some weirdness there. And so I was thinking about that in relation to the concept of exile, but then thinking about, man. When we experience work hurt, especially when we lose a job, we are actually experiencing displacement when that happens, right? It's. There's the geographical displacement of, like, I actually don't go into that building or that office anymore, right?
And so there's some grief there because that space is no longer a part of my everyday existence. You may have to move to a different place to get a new job, which can be both exciting and really challenging.
You know, my family, my husband and I have had to move a ton for new jobs, and there have been some really beautiful things and some terribly difficult things. With every move, you have, like, relational displacement, so you don't get to see people that are your co workers anymore. You're, like, automatically on the outside of things. And, you know, I just transitioned jobs a couple of months ago, and there's been some challenges with that because I really, really love some of my co workers and so not being able to see them on a regular basis. Like, especially like my. My two direct reports that I was working with the most all the time.
Like, I, you know, just like, find myself saying, I wonder what they're working on today. Or, they're probably doing this today, right? There's this just.
You just miss that relational connection there.
And I think there are other forms of displacement that can come up to you as we're doing that. Like, it can be. We can, like, forget our sense of our career. Like, you know, am I even on a career ladder anymore? Right? Am I completely off the ladder? Am I now on a different ladder? Do I have to build a new ladder from the ground up? Like, there's so many things. There's. But then even for those of us that have a sense of calling that somehow intersects with our job, I think that can cause some pretty profound displacement for us in our relationship with God and how we understand God and what he's doing in our lives.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you said it.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: It's.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: It's. I think.
I don't know, we can. We could talk a little bit about some of the evolution. You talk about generations. But I think about, you know, I had. I had grand fathers who worked kind of for the same companies, the same organizations, government work, you know, for decades until they just retired and then did part time stuff because they felt like it, you know, kind of thing. And grandmothers who worked part time and their skill set, you know, primarily took care of the home and things like that that on both sides of my family. And then thinking, yeah, my parents work life looked nothing like that.
It made me long for that. When my husband and I entered into, you know, employment space after grad school and stuff, I was like, oh, I, you know, I could see us being at such and such company until, you know, whatever. And it's like, no, this is just not, this isn't how it works. And then even now thinking about what does it look like for people my age and what might it look like, you know, for my kids. But, but I say that to say when I think back to like, I mean, this is so silly. It was never this way. But like these black and white TV shows where the, the, the work wasn't really a part of it. It was like it was off somewhere in the distance and then the dad comes home and it's like the workplace is a place that provides financially and that's kind of it. And there's, you know, it's real shallow and there's no real exploration. You know, of course it's a sitcom. I'm not saying there should be, but I think that, you know, kind of gives this like picture of like, oh, or, or we, or we disconnect ourselves from work on purpose, you know, oh, this is just, it's just a place that it just pays the bills.
But even if you try to do that, which I don't think is entirely healthy, it's not ever, as you point out, just a place that you go so that the bills are paid. Like, there's always a, there's always a connection there. I think early in my, after I graduated from college and then I worked basically doing essentially secretarial work immediately after that because we needed to pay rent. And, and, and then I was like, I'm not fulfilled, you know, I'm, I need to do something. And so I went into state. Casework, social work.
It, you know, did not take long for me to be like, okay, I'm fulfilled, you know, ring the bell, I'm done. Can I, you know, can I do something else now? But in that time, all, both of those jobs, kind of one end of the spectrum or the other. Myself, I think I would say for me it was the immaturity of my, my type of personality. My personality was. I wanted as much compartmentalization as possible. You know, I just thought, if I can leave my work at work, you know, and then I, and then I'd be at home. At home. But I think especially, you know, it was true with the, When I worked at the, I worked at a law firm at the beginning, it was true there that, that I couldn't really do that, and it wasn't healthy for me to do that. But I noticed it more with the other work, you know, that this was really. I was bringing myself to the job, but the job was also affecting who I was, you know, and we were growing together and, and, you know, there was an, it was an amicable bully for me was when we, when we moved out of state.
But that, yeah, it just stayed with me. And I think it's just kind of, for me, it was, I was in a naive spot where I just thought all of those connections that you say exist. Oh, that, that's not true for me, you know, or that doesn't affect me. Or this isn't really a part of it, but it really is. And I think that whenever we are separated from that, no matter what reason we're separated, it hurts deeply.
But it also is kind of interesting because I'm like, for some, it feels impersonal on the other side because maybe they can find someone to do my job tomorrow.
It might take me three months or six months or something, but they might be able to find someone to do my job tomorrow if I move, you know, and then what? So anyway, but I do wonder, you know, with all of those things that you say, like, how is it affecting us differently, maybe depending upon how we've been trained or raised to think about work?
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so interesting. I was actually reading a book by Peter Senge. He wrote a book called the Fifth Discipline. It's about learning organizations. And I didn't expect this, but he actually talks about the shift in work and what we expect organizations to do and what we expect from our work. And it's exactly what you said, like, going from this instrumental view of work, that work is just a means to an end. It's a means to a paycheck, to work being something more.
And I, I, I, I get that from some people. You know, they'll be like, well, at least you have a job. You know, like, that's just. At least you have a job. Okay. Yes. And, you know, I think, I think there is something good and holy about longing for work to be a place where we can grow, where we can contribute to the mission, where we, you know, Feel valued. I don't, I think sometimes people are like, oh, it's just, you know, the younger generations just, it's the me generation, they want all this stuff. But I actually don't think it's a bad thing for us to want the place where we spend a large component of our waking hours to be a place that's going to foster our growth in some way and not just by ourselves contributing to that. Right. Like I'm, I'm somebody who's just naturally going to try to grow wherever I am. That's my personality. But not everybody has that kind of discipline or even the frameworks to know how to do that. And so to, to want something more of work, I think is good. And you know, you talk about compartmentalization. I think there is a, I want to say, like I, I, I want to say there is a piece to that that is healthy. Like I want to be able to mentally and emotionally kind of leave work at work. Like I work from home. And so that's really hard sometimes. No, it's not really hard sometimes. It's really hard all the time to separate like work from home. Because I mean, I'm in an upstairs bedroom is where my office is. My kids bedrooms are right across the hall. And so it's like, even when I'm tucking my kids to bed, I'm going to like see something out of the corner of my eye in my office that's going to make my brain start thinking about work again. There's no option to leave the computer at work for the day. It's still in my house. I mean, I guess I could lock the door or something, but it's, you know, that makes things really, really challenging. But even as you were saying that, I think there's like, there's this wanting to leave work at work and be my full self at home. I think about what Steve Garber writes about. He writes about this idea of coherence in our lives, like this, this coming together of who we are and what we do in all of our spheres of life. So in our jobs and our homes and our communities, I really look to that. And then I also think about how people described. Max Dupree, who was a Christian business leader, was really famous back in the early 1980s for leading Herman Miller, which is a furniture design company for office furniture. But he was known for like being the same person, like the same character everywhere, like across all those places. So I'm like, I think that's what I want. I didn't have any of that language when I was, like, starting out on my career. Right. But I'm like, oh, to you. To. To, like, move towards that coherence the older I get, like, with every year, just trying to move more and more toward coherence and to try, like, I. To try to not let my workplace so shape me that I live outside of my values and my character. Right. So that. That's consistent. I'm like, that's.
That's what I want. And then I still want to leave work at work and be home when I'm home. That was really jumbled, but that's where my mind was going. When you were saying all of that.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I mean, I think. Yeah, I think that there is. It's. It's going to. I think it's. It looks different for. It looks different for different people in probably different seasons. I was not very articulate in what I was saying. I think part of what my struggle was is I thought, okay, I've got these things I can bring to this job.
And then at the same. Same time, I was kind of looking for a way to bring these parts of myself to this job, but to not have the job kind of, like, affect who I was.
And for me, it was difficult because I saw a lot of really hard things. And so now we have language and more research than we did way back then, but things like secondary trauma, so people, you know, work in spaces like I worked in. I worked in child protective services. And so, you know, we saw a lot of things. So these things didn't happen to me, but I was in situations where they're happening or people who work in medical fields, you know, seeing people, you know, dying and get. Getting hurt or, you know, I don't know, probably even people who work in mental health, I would think would have, you know, some of these similar things. And so it's like, it is my job, and it also. I'm the one who's doing it. Like, I haven't, like, created a clone of myself, and then that person is going in and, like, doing that. Like, the things that I experience and the things that I see are going to affect me. And I had a naivety back then about that actually happening. I thought, well, it's fine, if I can just leave my. I leave my laptop with my bag at my coat tree, which is what I literally did. Like, I would walk into the room and I would put it there, and I'm like, I'm just not going to look at it, you know, until Monday. You're like, okay, that's great. And then you're on call and you get a call at 2am and then, you know, and then what happens? And then I think I started, as I reflected years later, I had better language or better, you know, better ways to kind of talk about what I intended for myself and then what was actually, like, realistic. And then also, like, the beauty of being able to bring my gifts into a harsh place like that and also say, yes, this will affect me. And then like, kind of how, you know, and. And be able to explore that, you know, what is this? What is this in my personhood, you know, how can I do this? But it's stuff that I'm getting from work, you know, and not any other experience.
[00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm totally tracking with you now. In fact, I just had a student last week defend a dissertation on professional quality of life among hospice social workers. So I'm like, fresh in reading the burnout secondary traumatic stress literature from that perspective. And yeah, it is. I mean, it affects us. Like, we bring it home. And even for those people that aren't in a caring type occupation where they might be experiencing that secondary traumatic stress, I think about.
I don't know if I haven't looked to see if this is an actual term in the organizational literature, but a friend actually told me, she was like, you need to write a book on organizational trauma, like, what happens within the organization. Right? Because there's other things that happen in organizations that hurt people that like, so even consider, like, mass layoffs. Right?
What about the people that are left that stay, that survive the layoffs that, you know, especially if they knew there were layoffs coming and then they don't get one. So they've just endured that waiting.
They survived, but now they also have to deal with that relational brokenness that is not there because they're not seeing their colleagues anymore. They're having to grieve in some ways because their teammates are gone.
And maybe they're also having to absorb the workload, right? So there's. There's so much there to unpack. And so even if we're not in these caring roles, there are like these secondary stresses at work that we can totally absorb without even really being conscious of it, because we're just trying to get it done. Like, we're just trying to show up and get the job done. And, you know, I was talking with somebody recently, and they're like, you know, isn't it true that we just like to, you know, just buck up and put a smile on our face and keep going because we have to. Because, yes, even though we want work to be all these other things, it is also a paycheck and benefits. And so in order for it to be continue to be a paycheck and benefit, sometimes we just have to, like, put on a happy face and keep going. When really we're just crushed inside, maybe by overwhelming workload or by grief, organizational trauma, burnout, whatever's going on in the system, it's causing stress to us. And so if we don't stop and acknowledge that, then we can't put in coping mechanisms. We can't talk to our organizational supervisors about addressing it. We can't get help. You gotta know it exists and talk about it first before even starting to put in structures and processes to make it bearable.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, as you were talking, I'm thinking I'm taking two different things that can be related, but they're separate. So one, this organizational trauma, I'm glad that you named that and brought that up. And then also, like toxic work environments, which totally can be related. Right. You can experience organizational trauma because you've been a part of a toxic work environment, but they can just be separate. So even as you were talking about the layoffs, like, what happens to people when they survive a layoff. And, and this is what, one of the things that's. In the industry that my husband has worked for many, many years, it's unusual to not experience a layoff or two or more during your career. But this is our first one. And so I've kind of said that, but meaning like, and that's the language I've used, like, we've survived or he's survived all of these other layoffs with, you know, multiple companies. And it's all of the things that you. That you cited just now and then, I think the other part is, and probably as a, as a specific spouse, I felt this as well. So this is another thing. Like, it affects not just you, but also your family. And, you know, all of that is.
There becomes an uncertainty related to that. So all of the things that you just named. And you know, I remember one particular layoff, my, my husband said this was not fat trimming, you know, like the people that he saw leave. It was like, oh my goodness, like, these guys are so skilled. And so, you know, as you said, like, the performance rez are excellent and are amazing to work with and all this stuff. And it's just like this thing where you're just like, I don't know, I mean, in My mind is like, was it a coin toss? Then, you know, like what. You know, like, what happened? And then there's an insecurity that, you know, you can feel after that of, like, we just watched all of this, all of my co workers happen. And then who's to say next month or in six months, it won't be me or, you know, the person I share an office with or whatever. So, I mean, so there's that which can definitely feel traumatizing. And then there are those places where either you're still there or you're gone, but the environments themselves are.
Are actually toxic because the organizational system is maybe set up that way, or maybe there's a supervisor. I think it wasn't until I was hearing. We mentioned earlier our mutual friend Jasmine Bellamy. She was on a separate podcast that I'll try and find so I can link here, where she was talking about the supervisor having a very profound effect on a worker's mental health. Like, only second to their partner, maybe, if I'm not mistaken, which is wild. But what happens when that person is, like, you know, engaging in toxic behaviors? You know, like, as you said, like, we spend so much time there. If you think, like, okay, if you just kind of divide up and go, okay, third of our time is spent sleeping. A third of our time is spent at the office in any given day. And then a third of our time with the family, that's a lot of time to be in the presence of someone who's engaging in toxic behaviors. And then our livelihoods, as you mentioned before, are dependent on us surviving and performing well inside of those toxic environments. So, Meryl, this is so hard.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. The toxic environment piece is really challenging.
And, like, during the course of working on the book, I came across this framework, and I'm not going to be able to pull it up in the book, but it's like, exit, voice, loyalty.
And there's a fourth one that I'm not recalling, but it was a researcher who was talking about, like, what are your options when you're in kind of. I think it was like, toxic organizations, political systems.
And it was like, okay, you can exit, you can get out, right? You can use your voice to, you know, talk about change or advocate for things being differently.
You can just be loyal, put your head down and do good work out of loyalty to the organization or loyalty to whatever. I forget what the other one was called, but it was. It was. To me, it was like, what. It was akin to, like, a modern, like, quiet quitting. Like, you're just gonna maybe be there, but don't put in quite the effort. I forget what that one was called, but, but I was like, that's really interesting to think about through that framework and because like, I think some people will be like, oh, you're in a toxic work environment, we'll just get out and leave. But this is not like it's easy for most people because of the aforementioned paycheck and benefits and so, and like the difficulties of finding a new job quickly. So I think, you know, when we're in those kinds of situations, there's so much wisdom that has to be brought to the table and community support. Like, I mean, you've got to have your people with you to help you like see what's going on. You possibly need to be getting professional help depending on the type of toxicity, like meeting with a therapist or a coach or a spiritual director of some sense of some sort, if you, if you have the ability to do that, because that takes a toll. And even when you think about like the exit voice, loyalty and whatever the fourth one is called, all of those have costs. And I do talk about that in the book, right? Like exiting an organization has costs. Like depending on how long you've been there, it could have costs in terms of like people looking at your resume, seeing longevity or lack thereof. It could have some social costs. Like if you're, if you leave and then your boss, you know, does something or hinders your ability to get hired somewhere else and then you've got the cost of trying to find a new job.
The voice thing, like being prophetic, being an agent of change in an organization is really challenging. And I don't know that every single person that's in a toxic environment is going to have the platform to do that.
It's got to be done in a way that is really winsome and really wise and careful.
And I mean, I think back to, I had a professor in seminary that told me at one point about a challenging situation my husband and I are facing. He was like, you know what happens to people who are prophets? They get stoned. And I was like, and I mean, that's a risk, that's a potential cost. If you're going to be prophetic with an organization, you could get fired, right? If you, if you're in a toxic organization or have other just toxic behaviors heaped down on you as a response loyalty, if you're just going to stick it with it, you just got to be careful. Like your well being is likely being eroded and at Some point you're going to probably have some stress related issues going on there, right? I'm not a medical professional, so I'm not going to like diagnose that. But my guess is if you're in a toxic environment long enough, it's going to start affecting your mental health, probably your physical health is, that's related to it and probably your relationships because you're going to have to take that stress out on someone somewhere.
And then if you're doing the fourth option of just, you know, again, I don't remember what it was called, but I remember thinking, oh, this is like quiet quitting today.
Like, I think you're just damaging your reputation when you do that. If you're not gonna show up and you know, do good work and fulfill your job requirements, like that's, that's just gonna come back on your character. And so I think there are some costs there as well.
But yeah, it's, it's so tough when you're in those toxic environments. It is so, so tough to figure out like what to do, what's my next move, how long can I endure?
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it, this made me think of, there was an example in your book and ended up being maybe kind of a segue into where I, where I want to go next. But when you were talking about that, I'm like, and everything you just said and that there's like often the toxic environments, it's not equitable, meaning it feels different for different people or maybe different positions or things like that. So you, you give a story in your book and this wasn't in the, the Toxic park, but I think on oppressive work situations where, you know, there's a woman who, I think it's a fictional example in this case, like, but you can imagine it, you people have, we've, we've all met people in these situations or been in these situations where, you know, she's a, she's a woman, a single parent, she's trying to make things, you know, trying to get by and pay rent. And she's trained as a nurse aide or something like this. And then she goes in and works at the hospital. It's like her experience working at this place, while it's not described as toxic, is very, very different. As a low wage worker, I think that's the category as a low wage worker than a physician, you know, who might work in the same situation. And so one of the examples that, that hit me and I just kind of like, you know, bracketed the whole thing and put this part, you Know, because it's like, well, and then she, you know, she's struggling to get her kid to school on time and she's doing all the things and then, you know, maybe he has a program in the middle of the day and she can't leave to go see the play because this is the kind of situation she's in when maybe a physician in the same, you know, in the same, with the same employer at the same place, it would be no problem for him to, you know, take off an hour or her to take off an hour and go and go here or there and there's just like this is the same place but very, very different experiences depending upon job title, depending upon, you know, are you part time or full time, you know, someone maybe it was you said like, you know, keeping someone below that hour, you know, hourly mark so they don't have to provide them with benefits, you know, or things like this. It's anyway, people are dealing with these kinds of things all the time. But part of my point here is when you say, oh, it's a toxic environment, just leave your. Like it really is way more complicated for that person and especially if they have a family and things like that. Like because of what you said that the things that are associated with our work. And so I just want to bring that up and then if you have any comments or responses to that, but then also just kind of let that segue us into something that you wrote about that I had never been able to put a name to. And as soon as I saw it, I was like, ah, that's, that's it. I is precarious work, which right now I feel like is so common.
You know, I feel like I have a lot of peers who are in this precarious work situation.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: Oh yeah, it's everywhere. So I'll just jump back to that healthcare example you shared. But I actually got that idea from talking to a friend who works kind of like in company well being for a large healthcare system. And I was just asking him like, where do you see injustice? You know, and he, that was an example he gave. And I was like, that is so, it's so true that, that, that is a place where there is just injustice baked into the system. And so, you know, we're not talking as much about solutions right now, but it is a great place for organizational leaders to think about where is there injustice in the system. We just think it's run of the mill because there's, you know, part time employees and full time employees or even in A health care system. You've got the PRN folks who are, you know, kind of working as needed, picking up shifts here and there.
We need to think like equitably across the board when we're thinking about them. It's not like benefit tier for you, benefit tier for you, benefit tier for you. And then we'll segue into the precarious work. You know, one of the things, my student that was working on that hospice social workers project, she discovered something significant about people who were in that PRN category. And I forget what the finding was, but one of the things that she was saying was that she went back and noticed that, you know, some of those PRN workers are working for like multiple different hospice units. And I'm like, oh, that, that's, that's like what we might call like precarious employment. Right. And so I'm going to give us the definition right here. So this is the definition from the book. And it says the word precarious means insecure, unpredictable, undependable, and likely to fall or collapse.
And then. So precarious work then is non permanent, insecure, unpredictable or undependable types of employment.
And I think it was the International Labor Organization where I got some of these definitions. And it was a friend of mine who actually introduced the term to me. And when he did, I was like, oh my gosh, yes, this, I hate this term. But it's also exactly what it feels like. So I've been a precarious worker for a lot of my career as someone who is a consultant consultant who depends on con. Freelance contracts for my income. And so, and I've. I've been an adjunct professor, which is also precarious. You're not like employed like on a salary with the school. It's like per class. And I, there was a point in some of my contracts that were like, if the class doesn't have enough students or if we don't run the class, we'll give you like a couple hundred bucks.
And I'm like, well, what am I supposed to do with that lost income, right? If I'm expecting a few thousand bucks for teaching a class and it doesn't happen, and I've set aside all this time, I've done all this planning, and you're gonna give me a few hundred dollars if it doesn't go. I mean, if you're a part, if you're an actual like employee of that university, if your class doesn't make, they don't dock your salary, right? You know, like that's, that is just really, really hard. And I think companies, some of the research is showing that companies are moving more and more to hiring precarious workers. So we're talking like 1099 contractors, seasonal employees, like things where you don't have a guarantee from that organization, maybe like limited term contracts. That happens a lot in working with organizations that are grant funded because the position may only last as long as there's grant funding available.
So that precarious work in some, like from the organizational perspective is, is kind of nice because there's not this long term relationship. That person maybe doesn't have to be full time. You may not have to pay them benefits, you may not have to, you know, do any kind of professional development for them.
But for the employee, it's really, really hard to not know if you're gonna have a PayCheck still in six months. Right. Or to be juggling multiple gigs. Like my, one of my friends was like, you're queen of the gig economy. This was several years ago because I was doing so much different types. I was like freelance writing, doing some freelance curriculum development. I mean, just, I was like all over the map in terms of freelancing. But that's like all I could really do to get money was cobble all that together.
But like, oh my gosh, let's talk about how hard it was to apply for a mortgage after being precariously employed. Now I just want to say, like, I realize that there's like a tremendous amount of privilege in being able to apply for a mortgage. And that is, I don't want to take that for granted. And I also know that's not the story for everyone. But to have like, had two mortgages and to have good credit and then to be told by a financial institution that you do not qualify for any money. Now I mean, we're not talking like we're just going to reduce your mortgage amount, but we are not going to loan you a cent because you do not have a consistent paycheck. Even though my, my, my tax, my income level, my tax form showed my income level had not stayed the same because there was not that guaranteed paycheck from an employer. They thought I was too risky of a borrower.
And I was like, oh my gosh, what a slap in the face.
You know what I mean? It just felt terrible to be on the receiving end of that and to know like, I work so hard, I've met all my contracts and I've like faithfully paid on mortgages before. And you are you think I'm a risky borrower when, like, truth be told, even a person that's getting a salaried paycheck is a risky borrower because their paycheck could disappear tomorrow.
Lived it, been there, done that. Right? So it's, I think it's just, It's a hard, hard world for people that are living in that precarious work environment. And I really feel for them because it's really hard.
And those are the types of jobs often, too. I mean, they've got the, like, contracting where you can somewhat control your hours and maybe able to work something kind of normal. But I think some of those jobs too are like the, you know, you're working retail and you might be working like, the evening closing shift one day and opening the next. Like, I, I've done that before too. And that's just like, there's so much research about that inconsistent schedule and the overnight schedules, how, how debilitating that could be for our bodies and messing up our sleep rhythms and then just not being able to, like, plan your life and have a consistent schedule. I mean, there's. I'll stop talking. There's a lot to say about the difficulties of, um, precarious work, but I think it's just becoming more and more the norm.
[00:57:29] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm so grateful. There are so many things that are going through my mind. Like, I feel like there's a, There's a paper here and this is off the, like, in a different topic. So we, we won't go there. And I know we're going to wrap up anyway, but. So the precarious employment is becoming more and more common. But I'm like, but when you were talking about the mortgage, I'm like, can we just, you know, I'm like, pause for a minute and just throw it out there and say, I don't know, maybe. Maybe a student of yours can write a paper or something. But on, on, you know, as much as we talk about this work, you know, like, your work can hurt. There's all of these different things associated with it for us. I mean, how it, how it affects the, the employee and the worker and all this. And then at the same time, like, you know, you might have the personality. Like, I'm thinking of, like, gig economy. For me, I would, I would starve. Like, I just, I like, this is, this is not where I shine for sure, but for some folks, I'm grateful that that's it. But I'm like, but what about everything? Like, can we talk for a Second, just about everything that is associated with having full time employment with a company and how honestly like outdated that feels, especially right now, and how unjust that is and feels right now. You know, we, you know, so there's the mortgage thing, obviously. It's like every application or every form that you fill out for anything, whether it's actually applicable or not, asks for who your employer is and what your position title is and your work phone number. And it doesn't matter if you're filling out an application for employment or I want my kid to go to this daycare or I want whatever like, well, like why is that associated with my employer? I don't understand. Let's not even get started on health benefits. You know, all the kinds of insurance, like, okay, well you don't have a full time job, so you don't get to have a prescription for glasses. You know, like you don't get to have bad eyesight, you don't get to have a cold.
[00:59:33] Speaker B: Can we go there for a second though? Because I just have been through that, right? Because I just switched from employed by an organization that offered benefits to self employed again. And I'm a solopreneur, so it's just me and my business. So having to go through, I mean like I am very grateful for the provision of insurance, but having to go through my state, my state's marketplace and then the healthcare.gov has been a nightmare to get coverage with a like ridiculously high deductible, a very high payment and I can't, I mean I don't even have like all I have, like I don't have vision right now. Like I'm glad we were able to get medical and dental but like that was such a pain to have to do that. And also I like, I mean I found out that there is a provision, I think, I don't remember if it's like in my state when I was looking up things about like small business owners, you can get on like a group plan if you're a small business owners, if you have two or more employees.
[01:00:45] Speaker A: Right?
[01:00:46] Speaker B: Like hello. Yeah, like we're, we're missing the solopreneur here. This doesn't seem like just like, you know. Yes. I mean, I guess in order to be a solopreneur you either have to like just have like the, you know, best healthcare you can afford on the marketplace or pray that you have a spouse that has a job with benefits or go with some other like health care system, you know, like of taking the penalty or whatever. We Don't. This doesn't have to be on healthcare, but I'm like, I've just walked through that. It's, it's so, like, it's so hard and frustrating and it's tied to employment.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: It's tied to employment. It's all, it's all tied to employment. And it just seems, you know, anyway, it just seems so wild to me. But I think that's just another way, at least in our system, in the us why this becomes so. It can feel so tragic, you know, like, even bringing back to the, the example of the guy that we kind of started off with near the beginning of the conversation, it's like he was looking. He was, he was employed while he was looking, but it took two years.
And so, you know, you say this, this could easily have been two years of him being in a toxic environment. It could have been two years of him with the supervisor, who was real crabby with him every single day. You know, this could have been two years in an unsafe work environment. We didn't even go. You went there in the book. We didn't even, you know, we didn't even go there in this conversation. But, you know, like, if someone is, if that is their situation where they're actually able to look for a job while they have a job, which is fantastic and doesn't always happen, it can be a place where we say, you, all of these things being tied up in that just makes it that much more difficult to try and experience this, you know, the, the freedom that you would. That you want to come along with deciding how you spend a third of your life during those working years.
[01:02:51] Speaker B: It's so true. There is so much bound up with it that makes the decision so much more challenging. And if I can just add, I think that's where, like, we, as the body of Christ can come around people and support them, right? Like, it's, it's supporting them and helping them if they need help to find a job. Like, you know, your referral network for them on LinkedIn, you are, you know, any job you see on LinkedIn, you don't have to let anybody know that they're looking. But it's the, like the text, hey, saw this job on LinkedIn for you. You should apply for it. Or, hey, dropped your name at this company the other day. Or, hey, let me help you buff up your resume. And let's, let's do this together, right? Like, you're with them. Hey, I, I know you've got that job interview that is like, right after School. How about I'll like up your kids, take care of them so you can get there? You know, it's, you know, it takes a village to do this kind of work and to make these kinds of moves and so to help these people feel like, okay, you're not alone in this, and, you know, I'm going to help you to the best of my ability get out of this situation. Like, I think that would be so life giving for people, you know, to realize that, like, okay, I may have to endure this for a little while, but I'm not alone.
People are helping me. But more importantly, God's with me in this, right? God is with me. And that's like the, the, the point of the book, which, you know, you talked about, like, you guys are still in the messy middle of it, and it's, it's sometimes really hard to see that God is with you in the messy middle. You can, like, you can know it and you can sense it, you can believe it even when you can't sense it.
But to know that there is something purposeful going on there because you serve a good God who is purposeful and loves you, I think that is a deep comfort.
[01:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for that. Oh, my goodness, there's. There's so much we didn't cover and I wish that we could have, but I'm really glad that you ended with that.
I'll say an example of that in, in my life was just this morning. So we. A coworker was in town the week that my husband lost his job, and she actually was over for dinner, but we weren't prepared to share anything with anyone at that point because it had literally been hours, you know, and so later I was like, oh, my goodness. Just so you know, this, you know, this was happening when you were there. And that same co worker texted me just this morning, just a one liner. And she just said, still praying for y'all, you know, and, and I knew exactly what she was talking about with no context. And I thanked her, you know, for that.
But that matters, you know, that makes a difference. She doesn't have any connections, you know, where, where we need to be, but just to know that someone is there, they're thinking about us, they're praying for us, you know, in this messy middle, in this transition time really makes a difference. In addition to all the other things that you named, you know, being, having those, you know. Yeah, I'll. Oh, well, give me the resume. You know, I'll, I'll put it here, I'll put it in front of this person really, really matters.
Meryl, I want to. I should have let that be the last word, but I want to. I want to give you the. The chance to just say, like, there are many more of us who are in our own messy middles besides the people who live in my house right now. Maybe it's someone who is underemployed, or maybe it's someone who is precariously employed, or maybe it's someone who's in one of those systems that's really. They can feel the injustice. Or someone who has a boss with toxic behaviors and they're in their own messy middle. Maybe we can end with that. Like, what would you, from your experience and your research, share with them to encourage them in this season of their.
[01:06:59] Speaker B: Of their work hurt? Yeah. So I'm gonna go to a biblical story that's not in the book, but it's a favorite of mine. It's in Genesis, and it's the story of Hagar. And it may not one that be one that we think of in terms of work hurt. But, you know, Hagar was the maid servant for Abraham and Sarah, and she was in a work situation where she had really no agency and no autonomy. So we're talking, like, high likelihood of expression, excuse me, of oppression and exploitation.
And we see her in a really abusive relationship with Sarah. Sarah does not treat her well at all. And in the narrative, Hagar flees and she's running away, which, you know, I. I'm like, gosh, that I would too. Right? I would too. In that type of situation, I would want to get as far away as possible.
And God meets her in that moment and she names God. And this is one of my favorite names of God and all of scripture, you are the God who sees me.
And I would just tell anybody that's in the messy middle, you and your husband, Alexis, anybody else is in the messy middle, is that God sees you in the messy middle. Like, you are not absent from his mind or his gaze. He sees you. He cares for you. He loves you. That doesn't mean he's necessarily going to pluck you out of the mess right then.
But trust that God is at work in you and through you and that some point in. In his redemptive purposes is going to redeem what you have been experiencing. You have may not have any idea when that's going to happen or what it's going to look like. But I think about a line from. It was a guy named Dr. Coffee Washington who spoke in chapel when I was in seminary. He said nothing is ever wasted in God's economy. And so even if you were just suffering under the weight of a toxic boss, an oppressive culture, burnout, exploitation, you've just been laid off or recently fired or even just or wondering if you're next, God sees you in that and wants to walk with you through it.
[01:09:36] Speaker A: That's beautiful. Thank you so much.
Again, the book is When Work Hurts, Building Resilience when youn're Beat up or Burnt out by Meryl Her. Meryl, thank you so much for joining me today. This is just. Yeah, our conversation has been a real blessing for me, so thanks for being a part of it.
[01:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Alexis.
[01:09:58] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit
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