Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody. I am so thrilled to be here today with David Swanson, who is in a sweatshirt because he's in Chicago and it's October. So Hey David, thank you for having me. Oh, I'm so thrilled. David is and the founding pastor of a multiracial church in Chicago. And I know that we'll, we'll go into that a little bit more and talk about it. And he is author also the author of an incredible book called recycling, the white church from cheap diversity to true discipleship. David, thank you so much for being on with me.
Speaker 0 00:01:19 I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1 00:01:21 So tell us a little bit about, um, just the age of your church, how it came about and what your intention was and what, you know, what call you felt to start your congregation in Chicago.
Speaker 0 00:01:37 Yeah, so the church turned 10 years old this year. We have a great celebration planned. Didn't get to be that in these COVID days. Um, so Lord willing at some point down the road, um, I was a part of a multiracial church on the North side of the city here. Those, you know, back 12, 13 years ago or so as an associate pastor and that congregation had already been planning on planting a church here on the South side. I didn't think I would be the pastor of the church is in a majority African American neighborhood. And you know, all of us who were involved thought clearly God is going to provide a black pastor for this church. That just makes a lot of sense. And, uh, the Lord had other other plans is the short version of that story. And I kind of got taken, take it apart, uh, from the inside out through that process.
Speaker 0 00:02:19 And eventually, you know, was able to settle into this call and incredibly grab it, grateful for it. Uh, but Chicago, like many areas of our country is a very segregated city and has been for generations. And so we wanted to plant a church that would be salt and light. That would be a city on the Hill, uh, testifying to the power of the gospel. And which is in no way was, was to say that every church needed to look just like ours. Uh, but we did want a congregation that would be a little strange that would stand out and give us the opportunity to explain how, uh, how it's possible that in the middle of such a legacy of racial injustice segregation,
Speaker 2 00:03:00 That the heres a small group of people who are learning to love one another and watch out for each other and do life together and some different kinds of ways. So it's messy, it's challenging and complicated, but it's also really, really good. And I hope I get to be here a long time.
Speaker 1 00:03:16 That's so awesome. And I know when you say it looks a little weird, um, I am going to point to one of the stats you have in your book, but then also I'll point, um, listeners to another episode that I'm going to link here where I talk specifically, some people who work on, um, building true diversity in churches, but it's like what 12 to 14% I think is what your book said, that the stats are, that are truly multiethnic or multiracial churches. So when you say it looks weird, I mean, that's part of what you mean, right? Is that the, the ethnic and racial breakdown of your church does not look right?
Speaker 2 00:03:57 Yeah. I mean, sociologist defined a multiracial churches, any church where in one group is not more than 80% of the church, right? So you could have an 80 20 and still be considered. It's a low bar, right? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a low bar. And even by that, but you know, by that low bar, there's still very, very few churches who would make, make that distinction. And yet having said that, I think one of the things I'm trying to get at in the book here is that even if your church is much more diverse than that, you can still be monocultural. And you know, most of the times that that culture is white. And so diversity ends up being as important as I think it is. It can end up being a bit of a distraction from some of the more foundational stuff that also needs to be addressed. And, and that's, that's what I was trying to get at in the book is that before we pursue diversity, before we focus on, uh, moving a majority white church, for example, to becoming more diverse, we have to look at some of the discipleship stuff that left us contend in that segregation for so long. Cause if we don't, then we could add a little bit diversity and yet leave the status quo undisturbed in a way that ends up just kind of perpetuating harm that's experienced by, by people of color.
Speaker 1 00:05:10 Yeah. So I, uh, I had it on my, on my second page, but I feel like we can go there and then go backwards. Right. Because you alluded to it. Um, one of the, I wrote, I wrote a sound effect. If you can write a sound effect, I wrote next to this one, uh, on my notes, you say, you say it is possible to build I'm multi-racial ministry, that leaves structures of racism and white supremacy. Totally undisturbed.
Speaker 2 00:05:39 Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's a horrible thing to have to admit as a pastor of a multiracial church. Right. I mean, it's, it's one thing if you're like, Oh yeah, I, you know, I'm a homogenous church and I think malarial terms are, but I mean, that's the thing that keeps me awake at night, you know, is any congregation that has a percentage of white people. It has to wrestle with the power of kind of the white dominant culture and white supremacy. And, and I always like to remind folks that there are multiracial churches in this country that don't have any white people in them. I have friends who pastor those churches and they have their own struggles. Right. But it's different when you have white people in the church, when you have people who are used to being at the top of the racial hierarchy, who are used to sort of seeing themselves represented at every level of leadership who are, who are used to having their experience, be perceived as neutral and objective and the standard by which everybody else has kind of evaluated and categorize. And so on. Like that, just that changes that dynamic in a really significant way. And so, um, again, like you can have a diverse space and yet leave all of that stuff completely undisturbed. And you're not really doing anything to change the realities experienced by many sisters and brothers in Christ.
Speaker 1 00:06:47 Yeah. I mean, I feel like we definitely do need to, I feel like we definitely do need to go back because you, you and I both know, and I don't necessarily want to talk only on this, um, to this certain group of people are on this level, but here we are, October of 2020, this feels very, very different than October of 2019. Um, as far as the racial, um, reckoning is, is what is what I've heard this terminology used. And I love it, but this racial reckoning that we are in America, there are people, and it's not judging one way or another, but there are people who are entering into this conversation at different points in the game right now. And so, um, so I do want to go back a little bit and, um, I don't, I mean, I don't really normally do this, but I, I wanna just pause right now and say, David and I probably are going to talk specifically about, um, diversity and discipleship and solidarity and some of these things that he writes about in the book, but that does kind, we're kind of starting on a foundation already.
Speaker 1 00:08:01 And so, um, David has an incredible list of resources on his website, which I will post in the show notes. I have already recorded and posted conversations with, um, authors, Daniel Hill and jemartisby, which would be an incredible place to go back and listen to those. Um, just so you get a little bit of the context of kind of the background of what we're talking about, about race and church and America, um, and also the background of racial injustice and Christians in America. So, sorry, David, I don't normally do that, but I feel like even just that quote, um, I want to recognize that even that terminology of, um, of white supremacy or, um, you know, a structure of racism is going to be unfamiliar to some, it's going to be controversial to some. And so I just want to go ahead and say, this isn't something that I'm asking or, or I think David is asking you to, we're not that, you know what we mean necessarily by these things.
Speaker 1 00:08:58 So we'll give some brief definitions of some of these things. Um, and then we're, we're gonna kind of move forward in a conversation, but I don't want to leave anybody hanging because this is a really, not just this podcast episode, but this is a really important conversation that we're having as a country and specifically as a body of believers right now. So I'm sorry about that, David. I just kind of felt like we might need to pause there, but, um, can you talk about, like, when you say that keeps you up at night, this, this structure of racism or this, or this white supremacy kind of this environment of white supremacy, what do you mean by that? And how is that present in a lot of the churches, whether they are homogenous or multiracial. Right.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Okay. Yeah. So the way I think about white supremacy is as our country's operating system or a component in our country's operating system. And I do that because I think that many of us who are white, when we hear that language of white supremacy, we have certain images that come to mind, they're particularly racist individuals, or, you know, maybe white nationalists holding torches, et cetera. But when we kind of look with some honesty at the history of our country and some of the foundational assumptions to it, when we look as well at the outcomes throughout our nation's history, continuing to this day, like you look at any metric of wellbeing and any objective observer is going to see the pattern of who's at the top and who's at the bottom. And so I think that that w the, the, the kind of assumptions of white supremacy, that to be white is to have access to more status, to more wealth, to more health, to more wellbeing, to more security, and to be at the other end of that hierarchy to be black or indigenous is to have the least amount of access to be the most vulnerable again, by any metric, you kind of see how this, this, this plays out.
Speaker 2 00:11:00 And yet none of us have to willfully choose any of this, right? Like I don't have to wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to be racist today. I'm going to say a racist thing or think a racist thing, because it's just the operating system. It's that thing that's sort of humming along in the background, it's the assumptions that are sort of baked into the, the kind of policies and structures and systems from education to health, to wealth accumulation, et cetera. I just need to be complacent and kind of go along with those things in order for that operating system to continue to do what it's always done that I realize is a bit of a stretch for some of us, uh, particularly for white people. And I think white Christians in particular, who have a sort of high values around individualism, who are often suspect of language about societies systems or structures.
Speaker 2 00:11:55 And so I, I recognize that that's tricky, but I think as Christian people, it's hard to get away from. It's hard to get away from the fact that my sin is not contained to my individual self. I was saying to somebody recently that maybe the smallest system, the smallest society, that I'm a part of is my own family. And as much as I'd love to think that I can contain my own sinfulness to myself and that it doesn't leak out and impact the people in that system or doesn't impact our family system in some way it does. And we all know that it does. And, and we kind of get that. That's how sin works. And so white supremacy is a sin, and it's a sin that has infected the, this, this, and this country's DNA, and how we think about ourselves, how we organize ourselves. And if the church of Jesus Christ is going to live as an alternative, as a city on the Hill, we're going to have to recognize this as one of the patterns of this world, that we are not to conform to not like an individual sinful choice that we're not to conform to, but a literal pattern and acceptable perceive to be normal and natural pattern that we are going to refuse to conform to.
Speaker 1 00:13:05 Right. And, and we, we talked just a touch before we started recording. And my husband won't mind me telling you this, but I hear what you're saying and the pattern and I a hundred percent agree with you, the problem that he has run into. And I, no, no, no. He may get this later, but I jokingly tell them all the time. I know, babe, it's so hard to be a white man in America. I mean, you know, like gee whiz and a white Christian man in America. I mean, Oh, does, does anybody have it rougher, you know, than you do right now, but it's like, he, you know, finally, like not finally, but he's, he's going through he's reading. I told you he's jumped into the deep end of the pool in this conversation. And he he's, he's saying of the pattern that you're talking about of the white supremacy of the system.
Speaker 1 00:13:53 He's like, I'm a fish living in the ocean. Right. Exactly. How do you use, how do you, you know, he's like, I didn't see it because a fish doesn't know there is anything else, right? Like there is, there is anything but the ocean. Um, and so it is, I will, I will just kind of throw that out there and say, it is extremely difficult to recognize a system when it is all that, you know. Um, and I think that that's one of the, one of, in my opinion, it's one of the largest hurdles that I think the white church has. It's my opinion, especially as individuals in the white church, but as, as the white church made up of a group of individuals who it is that, um, the hurdle is that it can't be seen.
Speaker 2 00:14:47 And, and I think the heartbreaking thing about racial segregation in this is that as a white Christian, I am related to many other Christians of color in this country who could tell me about the damage done by what I perceive to be neutral, right? That, that if I were in relationship with these sisters and brothers and I trusted them, then I could have known a long time ago, how unjust the status quo is. And yet racial segregation, not only does it distance me from those, those sisters and brothers, it also inculcates in me as a white person, uh, uh, a distrust of their ability to narrate accurately their own experience. So that when they described to me their experience, I say, well, you don't really understand, or if you had a little bit more information, um, you just don't really get it. And what a, what a kind of heartbreaking reality for the church, right? Like, so that rather than believing our sisters and brothers of color, we tend to disregard their experience if we're even in a position to hear it in the first place. So that, that dynamic that you just described I think is absolutely right. It's also not inevitable, right? Like there is actually a pretty straightforward way to something really different and much, much better, but it would, it would, we would need to confront our segregation first and how it's impacted us.
Speaker 1 00:16:12 So I want you to do that before you do it really quickly. Um, when we talk about being in relationship with our brothers and sisters of color, I had seen a statistic on, I think I heard it on code switch, and then I didn't believe it. So I looked it up and it was like a Washington post or something like that, where it's something like 75% of white people only have white people in their close, closest circles and their friendship network and their friendship networks. Exactly. And I found that astonishing, especially when I read a little bit further into the article, that percentage actually has gone up since maybe the decade or two before. And this was maybe a 2014 or 2016 stat. But, um, so I knew that, and I was trying to wrap my mind around it in the last few months. And then you framed it in a way that caught me off guard, even though I was aware of the statistic. And I think the way you framed it was something like white Christians have more in common with other white people than white Christians have in common with other Christians. Yeah. Yeah. So can you talk about that and then, and then let's move to, to exactly where, um, where you want to go and where I think you should, we should go, which is the segregation to solidarity.
Speaker 2 00:17:44 Yeah. I mean, I, I, I wish I didn't believe that, um, like I wish I was just saying to be provocative, but I really do believe that I think the statistics bear out that when it comes to just how we live, who we're in relationship with, who we have most in common with when it comes to kind of political opinions, white Christians can be more easily sorted by race than by faith. And that, that is a heresy, I think, right? Like that, that ought to that ought to bring us to do a sackcloth and ashes. I think, um, because what we find in scripture is that through the blood of Jesus, we share everything in common with sisters and brothers who we wouldn't and otherwise that the Eucharistic blood and the baptismal waters, these are our defining reality. So that when Jesus says, look, you're gonna, you're going to lose mother, brother, sister, you know, sister, father, because of me, he really meant that, right.
Speaker 2 00:18:42 He meant that that the waters of our baptism are thicker than the biological blood that runs through our veins. And that, um, that's, that's hard, right? That's the cost of discipleship, but it's also the promise is the promise that in this life, you know, whatever we, we give up for following Jesus, we're going to, we're going to have it given back to us just in ways that we never would have anticipated or expected. I just think that white Christians, we don't want that. I think that we actually don't want that biblical vision of this new familial solidarity through the blood of Jesus we're content with the old lines constructed by ourselves, uh, around, around race. And, uh, and, and the divisions. What's that? Why is that? I mean, I think it has,
Speaker 1 00:19:25 In your opinion, why do you think, because I agree with you.
Speaker 2 00:19:28 I think it has a lot to do with what I describe as racial discipleship in this, in this book that, um, that our discipleship to Jesus has not actually confronted this mouth, forming worldly discipleship. And we've done that in other areas, right? We recognize there are patterns to this world that are leading us away from God's will, but we've not done that with race. And so we've kind of abandoned ourselves to this and that, that has an impact on us. It doesn't just change our behaviors. It actually changes at the deepest level of what we want about what we love about what we desire. And so I think on, on, on any average day, most of us who are white Christians, we would tell you, yeah, I belong to the diverse body of Christ around the world, but do I want to experience that in any kind of way? Am I willing to leave something behind in order to live in, in sacrificial solidarity? No, I don't think most of us do. We're okay with how things are, um, that, that racial discipleship is powerful.
Speaker 1 00:20:28 What kinds of things do you envision, um, white Christians believe they might be leaving behind if they were to enter in to that kind of relationship? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Yeah. That's a great question. I can't say that I've been asked that before. I, I would like to think that we are even thinking about leaving things behind, right. Like I would like to think that we're even at the place to consider, um, to count the cost. And I don't think we are, I, I don't think most of us have even, I don't think that most white Christians have ever been discipled to that point of saying there will be a cost of following Jesus in this way. Um, I think if we were to get to that, to that place, it would have to do with leaving behind safety, leaving behind security, leaving behind, you know, some of the status that comes along with going with the assumptions of the status quo. Um, it, it would involve oftentimes being sort of labeled the, uh, I mean, people don't use this language, but a trader to our race.
Speaker 2 00:21:37 Um, right. Like those would be some of the things that would come along with it. Mainly we couldn't participate in some of the, you know, some of the partisan ship that is so, so common, um, that we again, assume it to be, to be neutral. Um, we would have to learn how to submit to people who on a deep level, we've always assumed ourselves to be superior over. I mean, the list is long, right. Um, and I always want to say like, whenever we're talking about this, that's super painful. That's the, that's the death to self that is inherent to the gospel, but it's so good to like the other side of that is way better than whatever you think the good life is today. Like the abundant and blessed life that Jesus promises us is actually really incomparably better than whatever the American dream can offer us. So there's a, there's a painful edge to that, but we're talking about God here, right. We're talking to God's vision and God's heart. So it's always going to be super, super good as well.
Speaker 1 00:22:34 Yeah, no, I, I thank you for answering that. I'm just getting, my, my mind is kind of turning, um, even as you're talking, but when you mentioned the partisanship, I, I do, I mean, I don't want to, you know, talk about specific candidates or anything like that necessarily. We are, as we record this less than a month away from a major presidential election, but the first, the first star that I had on your book actually was from the forward. And, um, that was from dr. Brenda Salter McNeil. And she said something like, um, it's deeply disturbing that so many Christians think that racial reconciliation is some kind of liberal, politically motivated social agenda that has nothing to do with their faith as followers of Jesus. And I know, I mean, I haven't seen it, but I know because you're out there on social media, because you're an author because you post, um, beautiful words without, um, you know, you're not concerned about the cost.
Speaker 1 00:23:42 It seems. And so I know that you have to have seen comments, right. Um, because just in the little bit, um, that I have done on my own, or I've seen other comments, if you start to talk about the kinds of things that we're talking about today, the accusations, unfortunately predominantly from white Christians are that of, um, liberalism. There's some sort of, there's some sort of, uh, apparently social gospel as a cuss word, you know, there's, there's a lot, social justice is a, is a cuss word. Um, and so, I don't know. Can you just like talk about that for a minute?
Speaker 2 00:24:20 Yeah. So I'm, I'm helped. And the dynamic are described by a couple of things. One historically, this is just how it works. Any time that there's, um, movements in the white church for this kind of racial solidarity and justice, there's always some kind of a boogeyman that's elevated. And you mentioned the social gospel of a few generations ago. Uh, the debates between fundamentalism and liberalism, I think were another one of those moments, accusations of communism. Now that's kind of morphed into Marxism critical race theory is a real big one right now. Um, I didn't, I never even heard of critical race theory when I wrote my book. And then I found out afterwards that I'm a critical race theory. I just thought I was just reading the Bible. But, um, anyway, so I I'm helping, I'm encouraged by that. Like, that sounded demented way to think about it, but this is normal, right?
Speaker 2 00:25:15 This, this happens. I think that this is a profoundly spiritual work. I think that there is an enemy who wants to derail this work. And so let's not be surprised when, when it kind of manifests in this kind of way. Um, the second thing is I try to be as discerning as I can be, is the pushback coming from a good faith position? And if it is, I I'm, I'm there, I'm also at that table with you all day long, right? Like it doesn't matter if this is a brand new conversation to you and you're completely overwhelmed, or your instincts are to push back. If, if you're there in good faith, I'm there all day with you. But if not, this that's not my ministry, um, because there's just too much other good stuff going on. There's too many other folks who are wanting to learn and grow.
Speaker 2 00:26:04 And, you know, I got too much learning and growing to do as well. And so if, if a person's posture is just combative or, you know, is, is demeaning in some way. Um, now I'm sorry, there's, there's just way too much other good stuff that that's going on. And I, I think too often we can get distracted by the really loud vitriolic stuff. And I think a good spiritual discipline is to turn away from that and to start looking for the right, like the East, the mustard seeds of the kingdom. And it's always there. God's always doing something and let's give our attention to that. Now, I also want to say, I say that as a white man, right. With an immense amount of privilege and the, that I get it's way smaller than many friends of color and particularly women of color. And so that's another reason that I choose to stay in it because I know what they're experiencing and facing. And so, you know, I can, I can take a little bit of what they face and hopefully be mature enough to stay in the work with them.
Speaker 1 00:27:03 That's that's good. So let's get to, um, kind of the meat of this. You, the subtitle of your book is from cheap diversity to true discipleship
Speaker 2 00:27:16 Solidarity.
Speaker 1 00:27:17 Oh, I thought it was just a question. I was going to say if I had, Oh, to true solidarity, there we go. I'm sorry. Yep. To true solidarity. Yeah. Discipleship, discipleship. I'm sorry. Yeah. So from sheep diversity to true solidarity. So I'm like this begs the question what's wrong with diversity, because in my, I feel like people probably my age and maybe under, I'm going to say, I feel like this is like, this is the hammer that has, that we've been hitting and that we've been taught to hit over and over and over again is diversity. You've got to look at diversity. You know, you gotta look at your stage, you got to see who's there. You gotta look at your, um, leadership. Uh, sometimes you got to see who they are. You gotta look at your pews, you got to see who's there. And everybody needs to look, you know, and needs to have a need to have a look. And if you have the look, then the rest of this stuff will come. Yeah. But, but you say, and I, and I agree with you, especially after reading your book, that that's cheap. So why, why not diversity since this is the drum we've been banging
Speaker 2 00:28:24 For so long. Yeah. And, um, I mean, to be clear, I love being in multiracial multiethnic spaces is where I'm most at home. Uh, I'm a missionary kid grew up in an environment that was cross-cultural to my own family's experience. And so I'm, I'm there. I think it's incredibly important. I'm very thankful that I get to live in a diverse neighborhood and my boys get to go to a very diverse public school. But when majority white organizations, whether that's a church or a university, uh, a corporation decide that they need to become more diverse. What they generally mean is that they want to maintain the culture of the organization while then adding some diversity to it. So it's a kind of surface level diversity and, and, and white people to give us the benefit of the doubt for a moment are not necessarily in that doing something malicious.
Speaker 2 00:29:17 We actually have a high value on individualism and relational, uh, and in relationships and so weak at our, at our best again, giving us the benefit of the doubt. We can think that by, by simply adding diversity to our existing organization, we are genuinely addressing the problem. Um, if the problem has to do with individual relationships, having been separated or there being some kind of animosity, then the answer is to bring those people together, those individuals together, and that's just not true justice. Um, it doesn't actually address the material sources of oppression, marginalization, racism, and justice, so that you can have a very diverse space and yet leave all of that undisturbed. You can have as a white person, friends of color, and yet not be doing anything to actually alleviate, um, the, the racism that they have to navigate on a regular basis. A church can add diversity to its pews and yet not be doing anything collectively to, you know, make right what is wrong in our culture, which impacts disproportionately people, people of color.
Speaker 2 00:30:29 So that's the chief diversity, chief diversity is this instinct in white spaces to say, we need to become more diverse. We need to become a multiracial church without ever addressing. And in my view, the discipleship that led to our segregation in the first place that led to our complicity with the status quo, that is so harmful to sisters and brothers in Christ in the first place. So we skip over all of that stuff. We become more diverse. And then what happens over time is that the people of color who come to that congregation, they realize this isn't really, for me, this is so that white people feel better about themselves. They now feel better because their church is a little bit diverse and they've got a, you know, an African American worship leader up on the stage, or, you know, or what have you. But this isn't for me, this isn't about the instance of police brutality that happened last week because the pastor didn't even mention it in, in his, in his prayer, in her sermon. Um, and so we end up actually doing damage and we kind of re entrenched ourselves the people of color leave. And then the white people in the church say, well, we're never going to try that again. You know, we tried that racial reconciliation thing and they just didn't, they didn't stick with it. So I think there's all sorts of reasons why as, as good and beautiful as diversity is, we've got to do some, some other work first before we get there.
Speaker 1 00:31:51 So re discipling, how have we, how has the white church been discipled initially that you view as being problematic that has led to conclusions? Like the one that you just described as diversity being an answer to racial reconciliation and justice when it's really just not?
Speaker 2 00:32:16 Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's white people in general that we have been discipled into what Brian Stevenson of the equal justice initiative calls the narrative of racial difference. Other people will talk about the racial hierarchy that from the founding of this country, there was this assumption that white people are on the top. And, and, and to be clear, I'm guessing that none of you, our, who are white would say, yeah, I believe that because of course not like what, what a horrible thing, right? And yet again, those assumptions Stevenson says have never been publicly repudiated. We've never, as a nation said, we need to do the work to, to kind of remove the, these cancerous assumptions from, from our collective imagination. And so they remain. And the way that we know that they remain is when we look at the, the outcomes, you know, that we talked about before, you know, a black mother in this country, that's like twice as likely to die giving birth than, than a white mother is.
Speaker 2 00:33:13 You know, you can predict how likely someone is to, to live near a toxic waste site simply by their race. Um, you know, we can go on and on the, the, the wealth gap in this country is just absolutely obscene, uh, between, between white and black. And so we look at these outcomes and we realize that, that these, these, these assumptions are still baked in, and that they're still impacting us. They're still discipling us. They're still impacting our habits, which in turn orient, what we want, what we love, what we'll spend our time and resources and energy on. So that's happening to us all the time, as white, as white people in this country. And, you know, we can talk about this in terms of implicit bias and the way that this stuff sort of operates sort of below the level of our, of our cognition, where, where the church comes in is that we've never identified this sort of deforming, secular discipleship as something that is at odds with the gospel of Jesus.
Speaker 2 00:34:11 So we, can you say that again? If we never, I think that's so important. Yeah. We've never identified this racial discipleship, this deforming secular define discipleship as something that is at odds with the gospel. And it's important to say that we've done that in other areas, right? Like as white Christians, we've seen things in our society that are anti gospel. And we said, listen, we gotta be intentional to go in a different direction here, but we've not done that when it comes to race, we've assumed that the status quo, when it comes to race is okay, is neutral. And that it can simply be brought into the church with us without actually being identified as something that we need to leave behind as we were talking about earlier. So that's where we've, I think we've really missed it as, as the church. It's, it's one thing to say, yeah, things are messed up in our world.
Speaker 2 00:35:00 Of course, we know we live in a broken and fallen world, but as the people of God, we are called to live in an alternative way from the assumptions in the patterns of that world. And so, by not doing that, when it comes to this narrative of racial difference, we've kind of baptized it. We've told people that, yeah, it's fine. The way it is. It's okay. The way it is, you can follow Jesus. You can give your life to Christ. You can experience salvation. And yet none of that has anything to say with the status quo of our racialized society and what a, what a, what a tragedy that is. And so that's then where the redisign bullshit has to come in. Wow.
Speaker 1 00:35:39 I'm going to ask a question. I hope I can frame it in such a way. Um, there has been a lot of talk, especially in these last few months that I've kind of been tuning in. I'm sure the talk has been happening and I haven't been tuning in as well, but I would say in this kind of, I will say fundamentalists slash evangelical sphere of white church. And when I hear you talking, and I hear you saying we kind of baptized to this. Right. And, and my thought immediately went to yes, because in this, in this cultural Christianity of, I'll say again, fundamentalism slash evangelicalism, there are so many things that are not okay that we've pointed out. Right. And they're a, they're generally very specific things. And B um, as far as our walk with Christ as our, um, you know, continued sanctification goes, we find them to be very concerning when we see them.
Speaker 1 00:36:42 And so to have this, um, racial indifference not be identified as one of those things, specifically in the fundamentalist evangelical movement, um, it feels like a betrayal, right. Because I'll give a very generic, stupid example because I can't smoke and be a pastor. Right, right, right. That is, um, in traditions that I have come from that is like, no, ma'am, that is not okay. I cannot say a cuss word. I cannot watch a rated R movie unless it's world war two related. I can't, I mean, I'm being kind of minimalistic on some of these things, but maybe you've been around cultures where those things actually are a big deal. Um, and so when I think about that, and I think, Oh dear, where are our priorities? Um, when it comes to this. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:37:43 Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:45 Have you seen that? How do you respond to that as a pastor? What, what am I, am I out in left field?
Speaker 4 00:37:51 No, I don't think so. I mean, this is a great question. I would need to think a little bit more about it, but it makes me think of two things. One, I do think that there is this, this instinct within, um, white Christianity as a whole toward moral purity. And I think this gets expressed across the spectrum, right? Like in very conservative spaces. And I'm very liberal spaces. Now, the litmus test for your moral purity is different than those spaces, but maintaining that moral purity is very important. It's a sign of your kind of insider outsider status, right? Like if you, if you vote this way in this space, then your insider ego in that way, in that space, then you're an insider there. Uh, if, if your sins have more to do with sort of, um, you know, personal, then that says one thing in a certain space.
Speaker 4 00:38:37 So that has more to do with social justice and that's right. So, so this, this desire to be morally pure in order to be counted among the insiders, I think is a pretty strongly held assumption within white Christian. So I think that that's one part of it, but, but then the other piece here is I think what you're just describing is yet more evidence of our disconnect with the wider body of Christ, because why is it that the kinds of, you know, sins that you just described becomes so important when at the same time we have sisters and brothers who are literally, you know, over the course of this country's history fighting for their lives, how is it that we can elevate certain sins as being like these are the paramount indicators of your salvation? Frederick Douglass writes really beautifully about this in a way that I think it is applicable to today.
Speaker 4 00:39:35 He has an appendix in his autobiography in which he, um, he, he writes directly to the white church and he identifies a difference between, he said, I recognize the highest difference between the Christianity of this land and the pure and peaceable, religion of Christ. I'm not getting a quote just exactly right. But he says, you know, how, how is it that, that someone could confess Christ and be a woman stealer and a child Wipper, you know, he kind of goes on through this list and, and, and, and yet, and then, then he identifies like what the, what the, the, the, the okay. Sentence, where to be against. Right. And they're all about personal holiness. Um, so, so, so this, that dynamic that you just described I think, is, is ancient to this country and ancient to the white Christianity of this country. And one of the things that I'm longing for is that white Christians can, can grow up enough that we can spiritually mature enough to say that, yeah, personal holiness matters and solidarity with those sisters and brothers who are struggling under a kind of oppressive, a status quo.
Speaker 4 00:40:47 This country is also important, and I am spiritually mature enough to do both, right. So it's to care about both. And I'm going to position myself in such a way that I'm, I can no longer identify just two or three of these insider outsider sense, because I'm just too deeply immeshed and connected with the rest of my family. So this just doesn't even make sense anymore, but I would have that kind of, you know, just these two or three things to maintain my moral purity, because the family of God that I'm connected with is so much bigger than what those two or three things would allow.
Speaker 1 00:41:25 Oh, thank you. Can you elaborate on that solidarity? Cause, cause if we're moving toward true solidarity, give us a picture of what that looks like. What are we aiming for in this, if not the diversity that we're used to, what are we aiming for in solidarity in the church?
Speaker 2 00:41:47 Yeah. And I think in some cases, solidarity will absolutely lead to more diversity in the church, right? Like, absolutely. Um, but the beautiful thing about pursuing solidarity is that you can, your, your congregation can be located in a, in a town, a suburb that is almost completely white, and yet you still are, are participating in this, this spiritual work for reconciliation. So I think Paul talks about solidarity as you know, rejoicing with those who rejoice and weeping with those who weeps. I, I don't think it's a particularly complicated idea. Um, but I think under that basic instruction is the assumption that, you know, who's weeping and, you know, who's rejoicing and that you love them and you're in relationship with them and that's, what's lacking right now. So in the lead up to the last presidential election, one of my friends is a, um, uh, uh, Latina immigrant woman whose first language is Spanish.
Speaker 2 00:42:42 And she goes to an immigrant congregation and about maybe two or three weeks after the election, she told me, she said my church had been praying and fasting leading up to this presidential election. And what she was reflecting on was the way that the rhetoric around immigration had become so toxic and so dehumanizing that she and her church just were kind of like bow down under the weight of that. Right? Like they felt that in their bodies, the anxiety, the fear, the concern. And so their response was we must pray and fast together in response to this as a church, like a beautiful biblical response. Um, and my thought was how many of the white churches in our denomination that are located within five to 10 miles away from this woman's church even knew that this was, that church's experience and knew that they were praying and fasting.
Speaker 2 00:43:36 And my guess is that none of them did. Right. And, but if they had right, if they had been in solidarity, then they could have joined that prayer and fast with that church. Right? Like they could have sat in that place of lament and grief with their sisters and brothers. Where does that lead? What does that look like? We don't know, but that's what solidarity starts with, right? It starts with, I know you, I love you. I care for you. Your grief becomes my grief. Your joy becomes my joy because of our relationship through Christ. So I think the creative possibilities from solidarity are, are endless. And I think churches in different contexts have the joy of discovering where that solidarity leads in a way that will always be creative and generative. Um, but it has to at least start, I think with that very basic assumption that that's my sister, that's my brother. And so what they're going through matters deeply to me and given the racialized nature of this country, we're
Speaker 0 00:44:32 Going to have to make intentional steps to be in relationship with each other. It's not just going to happen to us.
Speaker 1 00:44:39 Yeah. I, I love that idea of, um, recognizing who is weeping and who is mourning that that's like, it's like a, that's like a wow moment for me. Um, because right now, especially, I mean we're a month away. It's funny because I'm just kind of by the nature of things that interest me, I am like all the time on NPR or I'm checking the Twitter news or I'm doing, you know, whatever, like I'm, I'm, you know, I was, I hate to say it. I was on USA today before I got out of bed this morning forwarding an article to my husband and my dad. Um, but I'm recognized that not everyone in America is they're not even not even close, but what, what struck me about the story that you just told is that this church was so deeply entrenched in what it meant for them, what the language, how it affected them and how they responded.
Speaker 1 00:45:43 And that there could be a church made up of a different group of people, not very far away who didn't recognize it. And you talk about, um, you know, the kind of the smallest community have we have being our family. And, and it made me think of when, when you use that language, we need to know who's weeping and who's mourning. Um, I'm a, I'm a mother of four and my youngest is six right now. And so we're, we're kind of past the, you know, baby crying stage. Right. Um, which I loved, but I'm thankful that we're past that now. Um, but there was a point when I was in the toddler baby stage where a mom would have it and she couldn't quite get the baby calm down, you know, and she's going, and she's crying and, and, and she, she was apologizing. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 00:46:28 I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And at that point, my typical response was it really doesn't bother me because it's not mine. And I can recognize most parents, right. Can recognize their own babies cry. Um, when, when kids are yelling and playing in the front yard and in the street, and we have, you know, a bunch of neighbors outside, my kids can recognize their siblings calling or yelling. Or if there is a fall, someone crying, they recognize their siblings and they run. If it's someone else, the run isn't as fast. Right. And, and that's the picture that I got is even in such close proximity, we're on a plane, right. This baby is crying next to me. I do. It does not bother me in general, not care, but if it's mine, I'm going to try to do something home, her dance. And when this, that for me now, thank you will be this picture of solidarity of, I don't get to say as a, as a Christian, as a white Christian or whatever, I don't get to say it doesn't really bother me. It's not my kid. Doesn't really bothered me. He's not my sister that's generally bother me because it is my sister. Yeah. And it is my brother. And it does really bother me. And honestly, we get trained as a parent for that. It's not all instinct, it's part training. And I think we need, we're responsible for training ourselves and responsible for seeking out training to respond to that cry right. Of our brothers and sisters to live in solidarity.
Speaker 0 00:47:57 Yup. That's really good.
Speaker 1 00:47:59 So I just love that that's your, that, that you're calling us to, that, that you're calling us to, um, to a true solidarity with one another. Um, man, I know we've talked all over the place, David, but what do you feel like, um, what do you feel like you could leave us with, whether we've talked about it or not, that would help us individually and as groups of in communities press forward toward solidarity with our brothers and sisters and toward true discipleship of Jesus in this space.
Speaker 0 00:48:38 Yeah. I think I would say that, um, that none of this is theoretical that that none of this is detached from flesh and blood and women and men and families and communities that for those of us who are, who are white, this is often a kind of intellectual exercise. Uh, we, we realize what we have missed. Uh, we debate with one another about the reality of some of this. We have conversations about theology, about the gospel and whether justice is central to the gospel or not. And I think it's important that we remember that for many, many, many people, none of this is theoretical. And that for many people there is not the privilege to debate or to, um, you know, sort of have long conversations that don't necessarily lead to any kind of action. And I'm implicated in that. I'm absolutely implicated in that, but for, for many of our family members in Christ, the, the, the stuff that we're talking about today is simply a day to day reality.
Speaker 0 00:50:05 They wake up, uh, in a, in a country that does not value them as much as it values me. They wake up in a country that, um, in lots of different ways, lies about their dignity, about their value, about their worth, about the worth of their children, um, about, um, whether their children are to be perceived as innocent or as guilty or as dangerous. Um, again, we could go on and on. And, and so I, I want that to be our starting point. I want those of us who are white and Christian to have as our starting point is deep understanding that that's that's us. This is, this is a, this is a we conversation. And whether or not you've ever experienced that personally, whether or not you're even in relationship, doesn't change the objective fact of your fellowship with your sister and brother and Christ.
Speaker 0 00:51:01 When we come to the communion table, we are celebrating our objective and eternal fellowship with Christ and with one another. And so the apostle Paul says, you need to be really careful before you come to the table. You need to be really reflective about whether you are sending against the body and blood of Jesus by what you're bringing to the table with you. And we've often kind of individualized that, but what Paul has in mind here is the, the, the kind of assumptions of the Corinthian status quo when it came to socioeconomic stratifications and the way the church just brought those along with them to the table. So, so this is, this is important and it's important because it is central to our faith, but also because of how this impacts the wellbeing and the flourishing of people we are related to with an N Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:51:55 And so I, I hope for conversations that reflect that, understanding that, that, that carry with them an honor, and a humility and a kind of sacredness, because we understand the stakes and the nature of what we're actually talking about. And I hope for many of us who are, who are white, that, that provokes an urgency that, um, that we realize that, that we've always been asking for more time as white Christians in this country, that we've always been telling people of color to go slower, to have more patients. Um, and this is a time to be urgent. It's not time to be reckless, but these are urgent days. And, um, we're talking about people's wellbeing and survival in many cases, not to mention the, the witness of the church. And so I guess I don't mean to be too, too heavy, but I hope for that, right? Like I hope for that, that shift in tenor and tone, um, that would reflect an understanding of, of who we belong to and who we're a part of.
Speaker 1 00:53:04 Thank you so much. David Swanson, pastor and author of, I will get it right this time, laid aside, filling the white church from cheap diversity to true solidarity. Um, thank you so much, David, where can we already mentioned your websites? You've got some great resources there. Um, but where else can we connect with you on social media and otherwise?
Speaker 0 00:53:29 Yeah, I mean, the website, I think has all the links there. So it's just DW Swanson and I think links to the Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. I also try to do a newsletter about once a week or so that tries to keep this conversation going. So would love folks to engage there if they're up for it.
Speaker 1 00:53:47 Amazing. And if you're on Twitter, I'm just going to say, David likes speak some truth onto your Twitter feed. So sometimes it can get a little bogged down depending upon what accounts are in your feed, but I can always count on, uh, David's when I scroll through there's one, there's one I can put a heart on and really read to meet him every once in a while. So, um, thank you again so much, David. There's just so much good stuff here and I'll link, um, all of this in the notes to the episode. So thanks again for being here.
Speaker 0 00:54:22 It was a really great conversation. Thank you again for having me
Speaker 1 00:54:27 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:54:42 Dot com.
