Episode 289 - Mike Austin

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Well, I want to put a time stamp on this for us as we're recording we. Right before I press the record button, I was telling my guest, Michael Austin, that it is chilly here in Houston, and that's because we just. We just had like, two days. My kids were out. They were out on Monday from MLK Day, and then Tuesday and Wednesday, preemptively. All of the schools said there's not a chance we're going. So we didn't even have to do the fun thing like we did when we were kids, like, watch the news, wait to see what comes up, you know, wait for the text. It was like, nope, everybody's out on a Tuesday and Wednesday. But that puts us in inauguration week as well. So I. I want to name that for us as Mike and I begin our conversation, because he's written a book that came out right before the election called American Christian Nationalism, Neither American nor Christian. And it's a short little book. There's a lot packed in it, and that's going to be the topic of our conversation today. So welcome, Mike. Thanks for coming on. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you, Alexis. [00:01:51] Speaker A: So I want. I want to talk about why you wrote this and kind of what the differences are maybe between this book that I mentioned is it's shorts, less than 80 pages, I think, and some of the other books that are out there. But I first want to mention the forward because Marlena Graves wrote that. Marlena's been on the show, and I just really appreciate her work so much. But when I read the foreword, I was like, oh, that tracks like that. Marlena's experience that she writes about in the forward of kind of noticing some of these things in the early 2000 and tens, she's like, oh, yeah, like, what's happening? So she's starting to notice. Her husband's kind of starting to notice, especially on their campuses, higher ed campuses. And then it's like, oh, yeah, this is what this is. It's Christian nationalism. And. And that is still a phrase that in my, when I'm looking at things from my perspective, is still very, very much misunderstood. And so that's one of the reasons I'm really grateful for this title is that I think you do a really good job of helping to define this in a way that's really accessible. So that's kind of where I started and where I was getting as a reader. What about you as an author? Where did this come from for you? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I had first started, came across the idea or the, the label 2015 maybe, and it was just a piece that someone had written. I can't remember where. Anyway, in class. And so I read about it some then and kind of set it aside. But yeah, just over time, some of the things I've been involved in and just seeing it, this sort of learning more about it and then seeing it reflected in the mindset of many Americans and many Christians in America. And so for me, the, the book was more like I'd read some of the more scholarly treatments of it and thought they were great. But I, but because I as with a lot of things and, and these are Christian scholars too, but sometimes there's that gap between, you know, what the, our scholars do and, and the person in the pew, so to speak. And so trying to bridge that gap, some can be difficult, but I think important because, you know, we have things to offer and we have things to be offered by, you know, our, our brothers and sisters. So for me, it was like, you know, there's not really a short, concise, clear, accessible, here's what it is, here's some problems with it, and here's maybe a better way. Well, not. It might be. Not maybe here's a. What I would take to be a better way forward for Christians to think about political engagement. And it's because, as I mentioned in the book, and I'm sure I know you are, and many of your listeners, the word gets used in so many different ways, you know, so I've talked to Christians. Well, I'm a patriot and a Christian. Does that make me a Christian nationalist? And said, well, depends on what you mean by those things. But almost certainly no. You know, I consider myself patriotic. I'm grateful. You know, there's so many good things about America, about the United States of America and then some people in the media. I mean, it's sad, but that's just the way it works. Whether it's media or just online discourse trying to get clickbait or stir up controversy. You know, call someone a Christian nationalist if they're, you know, conservative, like politically and theologically conservative Christian who wants certain, you know, like laws restricting abortion That's Christian nationalism. Well, that's not Christian nationalism either. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:25] Speaker B: That's advocating for a view that you think is best. Now, some people might advocate for that grounded in Christian nationalism, but that in and of itself is not so. Yeah, it just becomes one of those words you can use, you know, kind of like, you know, like woke or Christian nationalists or Nazi. And they have pretty important meanings, but they just get thrown around without much care. So I was trying to bring some clarity on here's what it is, and here are the reasons to be concerned about it, regardless of your political party or where you fall on the spectrum. [00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that I, I just. For me, as I continue to think about this, I think the definitions that we're using are. Are super important. I want to name a couple of. Probably some of the folks that you have read on this as well. But of course, kind of the. The scholars that people tend to go to are Sam Samuel Perry and Andrew Whitehead. I mean, and you quote their books in your book as well. They give really great definitions, and they're sociologists, and so they come at this from that perspective. I did a quick search and on my own website for Christian Nationalism because I'm like, I was trying to remember who. Which authors I had, you know, had come on and all that, and I was actually surprised. So it wasn't, you know, Andrew has been on the show. But I was also like, oh, my goodness, these were mentioned in a lot of other podcasts. So Andrew Whitehead, Paul Miller is another one who's written on this specifically. You also quote him in the book. But then when I looked, I'm like, oh, Scott Coley. So another philosophy professor. You're. You're a philosophy professor. Scott's a philosophy professor. You know, coming at this from that perspective. But then there's also lots of. This was mentioned, I noticed on. On my site. And I'll actually include that search in the show notes here of shows on episodes on immigration and politics and hate crimes. And, you know, all of these kinds of things are all these kind of tentacles that are coming outside of Christian nationalism. So I think what I'd like to ask you to do is we don't have 80 pages, but give us a paragraph of when someone, when we say Christian nationalism, I want to say, like, according to Perry and Whitehead, like, this has some very specific parameters, and there's lots that we can. That we can take away from that. But you also define this as one of the first things that you do. So if you could give us. So that we're on the same page with our listeners in this conversation. Even give us the definition or your working definition of Christian nationalism. [00:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. And so philosophers, we. We can be obsessive about definitions or we want to have an ironclad one, but nobody wants to read, you know, 100 pages of a philosopher doing that stuff besides other philosophers. And I don't even want to do that. That's what I am. But yeah, I think so it is a working definition and. Well, let's see. So I think first. And this doesn't make somebody a Christian nationalist. You can believe this first thing and not be a Christian nationalist. But as far. But it's pretty important to their overall system and it's that America was founded as a Christian nation. Right. So this. And they mean kind of Christian nation in the sense that they're Christians, so probably white, Anglo Protestant, fairly conservative. I mean, some people kind of try to mirror contemporary American evangelicalism back onto the founders. And so I think I just talked about this for a paragraph. I think it's pretty uncontroversial among historians and people who have that, of course, Christianity had a big influence, but the founders weren't trying to found a particularly Christian nation, which is why they tried, you know, people in the 1800s tried to get something like that included in the Constitution, in our. In our documents, right. To. Or make a declaration that we were. So of course. But there's stuff about God and, and human rights coming from God and all these sorts of things. So anyway, that's one. But that's pretty important to them because that gives us the justification, they think, to, like, go back to what we're supposed to be. So second, there's a. They kind of. They would want the sort of official culture of the United States. Right. Would be. Would be this sort of conservative Protestant culture. Yeah. That should be protected and, I don't know, enforced sometimes they would say by the government. And so Christians, then we should, they would say, take. Take up political power or pursue political power and cultural power, maybe outside of just politics, but to exercise dominion. So it's that Bible word, dominion. But we're supposed to take dominion over America. Right. And we're going to make America Christian or something like that in our conception of it. So that there's that two more briefly, then I think that third one, the dominion is a big part of it taking dominion as Christians over America. And then I'm actually forgetting the fourth one, actually. Oh, the fourth one's kind of an America first view. Right. Like always, America first and policy and foreign policy. But the last one, I think is really key, and that's what can be harmful for spiritual lives, is that we should. There's a blending of my, if I'm a Christian nationalist, of my citizenship as an American with my identity as a follower of Jesus, like, those things. Like, I would say for me, what I pursue and hope is that the core of who I am, my fundamental identity, is follower of Christ, child of God, that kind of thing. And that should inform all the other things downstream, how I do my work as a philosopher, what it means to be a citizen of the United States. But I think Christian nationalism, it brings that citizenship, that, that part of who we are, back to the center with being a child of God. And so it fuses our spiritual and political identities or spiritual and national identities. And that can be really dangerous because, yeah, just obviously all nations are fallen and nothing should compete at that core level of who we are. So that's more than a paragraph, but for a philosopher, that's pretty brief. [00:11:53] Speaker A: So, no, I think it's. I think it's great. Those, those, those are, those are bullet points that are, are super important, the definition, but also that when we hear folks defending the viewpoint, and I would say those who use the terminology of Christian nationalism and those who don't, but are operating inside of the framework, use those bullet points to defend what they're doing, their behaviors or their belief structure, especially, you know, I think the founding part is key. That's one that I hear just a ton and one of the ones that sticks out to me. It did also when I read Paul Miller, I think was this cultural, this, this cultural piece of, like, this is the culture of the United States, or it should be, and we should be working towards this as the culture. And, and that, anyway, is disheartening for a whole lot of reasons. I want to put a pin in that, though. And, and just ask you, and this isn't spec. This isn't like something you specifically. I mean, you do name it in your book, but you don't elaborate on it necessarily. But it's something that came to my mind as I was finishing the book this week and as, again, again, we time stamped it. This is the week of the inauguration, Trump's second term. And I think it's not a surprise to my listeners if I say I have been grieving Trump's reelection for a whole host of reasons. I'm not alone in the U.S. folks who are grieving his election, his reelection, but I would say Nationalism has been something that has been at the forefront of my mind as I've been watching things that he's promised, as I've been watching things that he has started to do. And some of that even from this America first, you know, language that you even, you know, that you even just described. So a couple of the things, you know, that I've noticed are like pulling out of some of these, you know, the Paris climate agreement, you know, he wants to pull the US out of the World Health Organization and, you know, things like this. But there are all sorts of other, all sorts of other things at play. And I meant to look it up before I sat down with you, and I didn't. But I even saw just a headline in the, in the New York Times about Trump kind of leading the way globally in this, in this right wing nationalist movement that's hitting so many other countries, including some European countries that we've seen, some South American countries that we've seen. And so I guess part of what I'm getting at here is if we table the Christian part of the discussion for just a moment and we focus on the nationalism piece. What about nationalism? Like, can you, can you help us understand that piece? And really what I'm asking is help us understand how the nationalism piece either historically has been harmful or how it can be harmful now, whether we're talking about just America or we're talking about globally, some of these things that we've seen. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So that it's really weird the way it works, like historically, like under the guise of nationalism, you have like Nazi Germany, you have like nations trying to expand, right, Their borders, their power, their influence, their wealth, all that things. Sometimes under the guise of nationalism, there's also the protectionism, like the shutting down to all immigration or, you know, majority of it or all, you know, those kind of things. And so it's this, you know, like you just mentioned pulling out of the World Health Organization. That's, that's a protectionist or sort of an isolationist move. But yet you want to, I mean, at least the rhetoric, you know, make Canada the 51st state and take Greenland and use force if necessary. Well, that's, you know, so it's this weird thing. The danger of nationalism is the, it's almost like the danger at the individual level, I would say, like of what we call ethical egoism, that I should just do whatever is in my self interest, the consequences for others be damned. And I think that's the danger of nationalism is that, look, that's, that's Going to harm. Not just so it's going to harm. If we pull out of the who, that's going to have negative consequences for actual people in the world are going to suffer and die because of that. But the blindness of nationalism, that kind of cases doesn't realize that that's going to harm us as well. Like you think you're doing something for your own good by sort of pulling back and pulling within and staying with, you know, that kind of posture towards others. But you end up for nationalists, forget or ignore, don't know or whatever it is that our good is bound up with the good of others, whether it's me as a man and a person in my city, my state, my country, or our country on the world, you know, the world stage, especially now, like, it's just the ways the world. We're interdependent in so many ways. So. So those are the dangers. It's kind of a superiority complex, right? My nation is the best. We hear those kind of things, right. And some people just mean they love America. Some people really think America is the best thing. Like it's God's agent on the earth, right? Can go to that extreme, the New Israel or something. So, yeah, that's. Those are some of the dangers, I think. And it's that willingness to use force and to really just not see and value the intrinsic worth and dignity of human beings around the world, regardless of who they are and where they live. [00:17:53] Speaker A: So I have a little, I have a little silly example and then I want to go to the, to the force piece actually for a moment. But the, I think kind of always and forever, the first thing that will come to my mind when I think of the World Health Organization is this. One of my children, we have four kids. And one of my kids, one of our kids, when they were little, was underweight and, and almost under height. Just, just a small kid. And this kid had been premature and, you know, all those kinds of things. And so one of the things the pediatrician didn't. I was a new parent at the time. I had no idea what I was going on. I just knew there were growth charts and this kiddo wasn't making them. And the pediatrician said, you know what we're going to do for this kiddo? We're just going to look at the World Health Organization charts because they're different than the US Growth charts. The US Growth charts, for whatever reason, they tend to be bigger, you know, taller, bigger. You know, specifically we were concerned about weight. And the pediatrician said, you Know, she said, but if you look at the World Health Organization, she's on the chart at least, you know, this, this kiddos on the chart and just a little bit small and. But I chuckle at that now. But one of the things about the. It's just, to me, just this little small anecdote about kind of this superiority, this exceptionalism, you know, whatever. It's like, okay, we're looking at kids all over the planet, and for kids all over the planet, this kiddo was doing just fine, you know. But when we look at just American kids and we say, oh, my goodness, there's a problem, they're behind their, you know, whatever it is. And I think, like, having the superior, that superiority, that exceptionalism, it skews our perspective, you know, of what's happening globally, what's kind of in the range for everybody, not just folks who live in this, you know, in this, in this small segment, but of, you know, of the world. But when we, when we look at nationalism, thank you again for like, kind of lining some of that stuff out. And I had. Even Greenland had even left my mind, you know, but also the Canada Panama Canal, you know, these kinds of things as well. The borders getting closed, obviously. It was huge thing, day one after Trump's inauguration, all of those things playing into nationalism. But one thing that struck me as I was reading your book, and I wish that I had marked it specifically on my notes, but you talked about potentially using force, and this is something that the president has not. That was one of the reasons, I think, that it garnered so much news, is that he was not willing, at least at the time, to say he would not use force to try and accomplish some of these goals, like taking over Greenland. But it's not just what's happening from the government's seats in office, you know, not just what's happening with the president. Something that struck me when I was reading your book, Whitehead mentions it as well, is that folks who are Christian nationalists or folks who are adhering to this framework generally will say that they would resort to violence in order to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve. Can you talk about this? Because this is. This is striking to me. This is regular old citizens. This isn't like, you know, military folks or law enforcement or, you know, members of certain, you know, governmental branches. This is just like you and me, just like regular, everyday folks who are saying this is part of their mindset. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is something. Yeah, it's scary. I mean, and it is like a. In a wake up Call in a certain way to like, what's going on. And so I've got to know a little bit the last few years, just because we've been at some conferences the same time. Elizabeth Newman wrote a book called Kingdom of Rage. She used to work in the Department of Homeland Security and was in the first Trump administration, ended up resigning. But she makes kind of a similar point because what she's, she's an expert on extremism within our borders. And so, yeah, she mentions these statistics. And the disheartening thing is there are a large number of people who will say, yeah, I can, I can imagine situations where I. Political using political violence would be necessary or justified. Now, good thing that from what she says is people, there's still steps between someone saying they would do it and actually doing it. But it. So it's not like all those people right now ready to take up arms. But the problem is some of them are and some of them could be moved that way. And yeah, it's really, it just seems so strange to me when you, I mean, if you just step back for a minute and take a breath and just look at the things that people in government have said, you know, about, well, let's just make two Americas or there's going to be a civil war or, you know, we should just separate the red and blue states. Of course, there's no such thing as actual red and blue states. Like all states are red and blue. Yeah. Anyway, so the, yeah, so that's a big concern. And that's a concern. Just that because the way our founders just from a purely American standpoint, like they set up the arms of government trying to not have political violence. Right. To be able to, for all people to have a voice, to have their thoughts and ideas and beliefs represented. And then we, our representatives, hash it out and we don't like it. We vote new ones in, you know, sort of just standard American civic stuff. But the people are just willing to set all that aside or, you know, ignore the Constitution or the value of character just to get what they want, politically speaking. Of course, there's all kinds of reasons. I'm sure fear is. Runs in that anxiety about present and future for some especially who have access to it. Just a lust for power to keep power or get powers. Just all the sort of darker parts of human nature that it's like the easiest part of the Christian worldview to show is true that human beings are fallen and messed up because you're just like, look around you and look inside of yourself. So yeah but that to me is just someone who like I'm Gen x. I grew up 70s and 80s and I remember I believed all the melting pot stuff and thought well, of course I really. I've realized in recent years I just assumed that we're gonna. Democracy's stable and people aren't gonna take. Only the extremists would consider using violence to get what they want. But, but we've. The needle's been moved and so hopefully we can move it back. [00:24:48] Speaker A: I think I want to. I want to. Where I wanted to go before you said the needle had been moved. So let's say this. Where I wanted to go was power. So let's, let's maybe put a, put a pin in power. But. But I want to camp kind of where you ended for just a minute and that is that the needle's been moved. And, and I would say I am. I count myself among the folks who, who would be at least Venn diagram with where you. Where you described of like yeah, it's just this is the way it is. This is, you know, this is what we do in America and we, you know, it's. It's election, it's nonviolent, it's peaceful transfer of power and it's, you know, all these things. And, and, and I kind of realized I would speak for myself. I realized in the last several years that part of what I was participating in mentally was American exceptionalism in even saying that kind of thing. Like, what makes me think that America or that the. That the US Even is. Is incapable of falling or is incapable. This. What if this experiment doesn't work? Like, it's like that wasn't even something that ever crossed my mind of like, what if. What. The needle couldn't have even been moved in. In my mind. And I think we're seeing that is very different. I often blame my dad for these kinds of things. He knows that I blame him. We have lots of conversations. But my dad, his graduate work is in political science. And so I have said of my dad often, I don't necessarily think my dad is prophetic, but I think he's very perceptive. And so a lot of these things that now the media is coming out or very strong opinion pieces or these kinds of things talking about or Liz Cheney like democracy's in trouble, guys. Like, you know, like, let's. Let's wake up. My dad has been saying those things for a decade, you know, or longer. And I am like, ugh, you know, now I'm not. But back then I'm like, oh, come on, don't be an alarmist. Don't, you know, whatever. And I'm like, no, I just think he's seen some things. He's familiar with history. He's familiar with history of, of the US but he's also familiar with history of other governments in the world that have tried to do things like this. And, and it's, and it's, it's come to an end in some way or another. And, and I'm with you. I don't think it's over. I'm not a doomsdayer, you know, But I do say we're on a trajectory, I think, and we do. It's going to require, in my opinion, is going to require some course correction. Like, we've got to, we've got to come back and, and figure this out. And, and I think that folks out there, you know, I pick on Liz Cheney because she's just, I think, just shown so much courage and bravery in the last several years to stand up against folks who are proponents of Trump and what he's doing. I think, you know, I use her and say, yeah, she is saying out loud what I think we need to be listening to. You know, I haven't read everything that she's put out, but it's just like she's saying, like, hello, can we see, can we see what's happening? And for me, that was part. To kind of go back to the beginning of this question. That was part of it for me was, okay, as I'm reading this book, it's nationalism. Like, I, I'm a theologian. I think the Christian part of this is very much a problem, like, as you do. But part of it is, I think that a lot of folks just don't understand what nationalism is and how harmful it can be. And they're, I think, mixing it up sometimes with patriotism, or at least conflating the two, perhaps, and saying, well, I'm proud to be an American, therefore these things are my duty. These are my civic duty. And we say, actually, those things aren't civic duty. Those things are nationalism. And that is not like, that's not patriotism. That's not the civic duty here. [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Let'S move to power. Because this is where I think, when your subtitle Neither American nor Christian, I would say neither American man. This, this idea of a pluralist nation has really been under attack. It's been, you know, a confusing thing, I think, for folks. You talk about that some in your last chapter, which I loved on the beloved community. But this power was sprinkled really throughout. This theme of power was sprinkled throughout your book. So I'm wondering if you. Because power features so prominently, at least in my perspective, in Christian nationalism, I would say, what's the problem? Yeah, it's the problem. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Well, from, from a, the nationalist or American perspective, the problem is that we, that the power becomes concentrated and that whether, whether it's majority or in our case, maybe just a plurality. Right. Because it's not like actual majority of Americans voted for Trump. I mean, the majority who vot. Right. But there are plenty of people who could have voted that didn't. But the idea is it's power. Exercising power over others. Right. Taking dominion means, if you want to, like, the real Americans are the ones that are like us. Other people are sort of second or third or fourth class Americans. And it's using that political social culture, all those different avenues of power to really make people conform to what we believe and how we want to live. And so that's just, I mean, just that basic American value of liberty, inequality, right. It violates those. And then as Christians and whatever power we have, we're supposed to follow the example of Jesus right now and which power. I mean, he, he exercised his power, right. But, and, but not in the way that say a Christian nationalist wants to. You know, when it, oh, the sons of thunder, what were their name? You know, should we call down lightning from heaven? And Jesus is like, no, that's not how my kingdom works. You know, I mean, that's kind of a, the paradigm or, you know, tells Peter to put a sword away. And so I think the way of Jesus is about power. But as, as Dallas Willard, kind of my posthumous mentor in certain ways of the spiritual life and a lot of things, it's that like, we want to become the, like just in our Christian lives as Christians. We want to become the kind of people that God can entrust with more and more power, so to speak, in our lives. Not necessarily power over others, but like the ability to think the more that we're enmeshed in union with God and his kingdom, then the more God can, you know. Yeah, I guess the way Willard puts it, like we have more power, but we're you, we're using it for good. It's like, you know, you don't you want someone to have like, I think about a teacher or a coach or a school principal or a mayor or president. Right. None of them are going to be perfect. They're all human. But there should be a fundamental baseline of just of character that they can handle the power responsibly. And, you know, the founders were concerned about that. That's why there's separation of powers. Right. They didn't want it to be concentrated in one or the hands of a few. So, yeah, the problem with power is it violates others, freedom, equality and dignity. And then the way that it gets exercised in Christian nationalism, and nationalism in general just runs counter to the way that the followers of Jesus are supposed to make use of power. And whatever influence that we have, we're not here to take over the country and make it a Christian state. We're here to love, provide a witness, do what we can to make laws that are just but not. But they would be, you know, the laws would be just as just for a Muslim or an atheist as they would a Christian. [00:33:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's that, that Dominion piece, I'm really, it makes me shudder. And I also really like that you use it to the extent that you do in the book because helps put that in perspective. And it's the, it's the conforming piece of that. This. Americans need to look like this. These Americans need to be in power. You mention that quite a bit in the book for proponents of Christian nationalism, which is who should be in power, who should hold those seats. Can you talk about the problems with that mindset as well? And I'm thinking specifically about folks who are proponents basically saying the way to the kind of America that we want is paved with these elected seats being held by people who are Christians. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's. The hard thing is there's a, like, there's a part of me thinks, yeah, that's great. We should have, like, Christians should be. Well, Christians should be. Participate. They should run for office. They should do these sorts of things. But, but yeah, I mean, whether you like it or not, you personally, whether people like it or not, I mean, and many don't like, we really. Our nation is a pluralistic nation. There are people from different faith traditions, no faith tradition at all. Different. I mean, all the differences. And basically, so we're supposed to have a representative democracy, but then Christian nationalism just says, well, not really. Right. Just. Just us. And you can spiritualize. It's like we're the ones who have been saved and so we know what's right and others don't. But I think even that's a. Like if one of my professors in seminary a long time ago said, and he was talking about Reinhold Niebuhr. And he would say, you know, if you follow Niebuhr's line of thought, neighbor wouldn't say we should have just Christians in government, even from a Christian perspective. And all the things that that's supposed to mean that we've been changed by Christ because the whatever other religion or religion, all person. Right. They're still made in God's image. They can see things that we can't. We have blind spots. Right. American evangelicals have blind spots. American mainline Protestants have blind spots. Catholic. I mean, all of that. So, so it's not representative there. It's. It's really just prideful thinking that we know best and just because we're Christian. And usually it's. It's not just Christian, it's Christians like me that believe what I believe. Right. The, the ironclad biblical worldview that I have nailed down, that if you don't agree, then you're just wrong and maybe evil or just foolish. And so, yeah, real lack of humility. And so, yeah, those are the problems. I see. Right. It's that we don't want that because, well, number one, it won't work. People are going to be more harm than if we have more. And number two, representative democracy should be representative in a democracy. [00:36:35] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. I think one of the things that I, in my mind, how I help with this definition of Christian nationalism is that it's very exclusive. It's like a club and folks who don't look like me can't get into the club. One of the interesting things about my personal upbringing though, is I'm mixed Hispanic. And so depending on the day and depending on the community, I either look like I belong in the club or I don't look like I belong in the club. And, and, and that's one of those things I would say, even personally. And maybe we can shift there for a minute. This also isn't in my notes, but maybe you can hang with me. I'm saying that like, you saw my notes. You didn't. You have no clue. Thanks for hanging with me anyway. But I think that's part of the thing that I think I struggle with. And it's tough. I think of. I don't know if you've read Brian Kaler, but he came on the show and he talks about the progressives that are partaking in Christian nationalism behavior, which I think is, is a really, is a really great take on it, but because we often do associate it with ultra conservative folks, you know, and he's like, no, this is like, everywhere. It's not just, you know, not just that these folks. But one of the things I think of in my. In my personal life, like I said, because of that just. Just the way it is, like being a mixed person, I kind of fit in these different communities at different times, is that it is tempting, even if I don't agree politically, theologically, socially, culturally with these mechanisms of Christian nationalism, it is really tempting to go along with some of them anyway because they. I would benefit from those kinds of things, whether it's a particular policy, you know, or something like that. Now, the other half of that is I have also lived through many, many experiences. And I would say the. The. The other part of it is, like, I understand from a personal perspective how harmful those things can be. You know, when my. The kid in my. The, you know, white kid in my youth group is, you know, fussing about Hispanics invading and, you know, things like that. And I'm. I'm sitting here literally in the chair next to him, you know, crying when I go home and things like that. Like, I understand, you know, that. That side of it as well. But when I'm included in the group, that benefits. As a Christian who doesn't buy into this stuff, I would say it still is tempting to be like, well, I don't know. I mean, he has a point, you know, with some of that. So I'm guessing that's not just me, but maybe talk to the Christian. Who is it? Maybe they're not tempted, but maybe they just kind of say, no harm, no foul, or this doesn't really impact me or, you know, whatever that might look like. Or I think maybe they're. Maybe they're on to something, you know. [00:39:52] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. There's something I've, like, just personally struggled with in certain ways and that I, like, I could like the heart of what I. My work, what I'm most passionate about, writing, speaking, teaching and stuff about character and spiritual formation and common good. But, like, I could just say I'm just gonna. Not. I'm just gonna tune out because. Because I'm just. It's not gonna. It probably won't affect me in a negative way if I do that. But. But so the. And then the. No harm, no foul. Like, yeah, that wouldn't harm me. But people, you know, child, you know, human beings, right, making God's image are going to be harmed, both American citizens and others. And, you know, from a Kingdom of God perspective, God perspective, the citizenship thing doesn't matter. And so, yeah, I Think not. I don't. It's not like I'm some major public voice with a ton of influence. But you know, we all have our little spheres of influence. I have a little bit since I write and do, you know, do stuff online and speak here and there outside of just own church and community. And I just feel like, like I have a responsibility to use what little I have to try to prevent some of that harms or even just bear witness against it sometimes, you know, it may not make a difference. Like I, I'm, I, I'll be surprised if anything I do or say in the next four, eight or 20 years, just this or any other things that I care about that I think should be better or need to be changed. Some huge change. But also there's just a. Yeah. For Christians, there's a value in just bearing witness to the gospel and to Christ. And no political party gets it all right. And so when we wet it to the right or the left in our country, then we get let down sooner or later, right where we're departing from who and what we should be. So yeah, I think the, I would say as a Christian, you know, the great commandment, love God and love your neighbors yourself, Neighbor. You know what the parable of the Good Samaritan, we learn neighbors, not just the person, the next door neighbor, that is from my same socioeconomic, you know, status and maybe probably looks more like me than, you know, people across town or whatever it is. But neighbor's not a, it's not a about race or ethnicity or anything. They're human and you come across them. So our neighbors to the south, right, Some of those people that want to come into our country, people that are from Mexico or from farther down Honduras or Guatemala, it should just be enough of their humans in need. I don't have the immigration answer, but I know that they matter from God's perspective. And as a Christian, a lot of those are our brothers and sisters in Christ. So just say sorry that, you know, through the violence or the instability in your country. But just go back. Like I think. Yeah. So that stuff really bothers me and I'm not, I'm not advocating for open borders, but I also think as Christians, we're supposed to care for other people just to love our neighbor. And we have so many resources in the United States that could be used for that. Of course you need good policies. I don't want violent criminals to be let into our country any more than I want them to be, you know, live in my neighborhood or my Town. But, you know, we sort of, that's just not what reality is. Right. That, I mean, the reality from the studies I've seen in crime data is, you know, immigrants, including illegal ones, are less likely to commit crimes than citizens. So it's just this common thing. You, you find the, the bad makes somebody or some group or groups the bad guy, right. The other the enemy. Then we can, you know, all turn towards them, kind of vent our negative emotions. They become the bad, the evil ones, and we're the good ones. So, yeah, I'm kind of rambling a little bit, but I think a lot of these things, people can have different views about policies for sure. But for Christians, if it's, whatever it is, wherever you land, it's got to be loving your neighbor as yourself. And if somebody's being harmed, if it's not you, that's, you know, being grateful for that. But then do what you can to help prevent other people from experiencing that harm. Because they matter. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. I have kind of two, two questions left. The, the second one will just, so, you know, we'll just kind of be an open ended, you know, kind of. I, I love when professors and pastors are on the show because then I kind of get to say, what would you tell us? So that'll be the last one. But before that, especially this week, as we celebrated MLK Day on Monday, which coincided with Trump's second inauguration, that is where you end your book is with an elaboration, a take, an incorporation of King's beloved community. And so I'm wondering, you know, I actually, I was like, I know what I was. When I was finishing the book today, I thought, I know people need to know the rest of this stuff, like the definitions and, you know, all this. But I'm like, oh, I could have almost a whole episode on just the beloved community in this idea. So I'm wondering if you could leave us with, before we get to that last question, if you could just leave us with some, some points about King's beloved community that you think specifically will help us as we see and learn about and confront, I will say, Christian nationalism in our own communities. [00:45:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I think, you know, from the big picture, the beloved community, basically the idea is that, you know, we want like, say in our friendships or our families or churches. Like, love should be the sort of governing principle, so to speak. And the King wanted that to be the governing principle, sort of our political order. Right now it's going to look different how I love My, you know, the man across the person across the street across town, or I'm in Richmond, Kentucky, you're in Houston. Right. That's the way we love in the political order is different than the deeper relationships we have with our close friends and family. But King thought, yeah, that should be the defining sort of ordering principle. And, and he's very clear it's not possible unless, like, God shows up and does stuff. Right. So the objections is entirely unrealistic. We can't. We can't even get close to sort of bare bones of justice, or at least close. You know, we can't do that. I mean, we've made progress for sure, but like a lot of injustice in our world and in our nation. So to think we can't even do justice. How are we going to make love, you know, work as a defining principle or an ordering principle? But that's what. But, but, you know, for King, well, God has to do show up, right? But there's that. And even if we're not perfect, at least we're like moving in that direction. So it means that it's some of these basic Christian ideas that everyone in the community, no matter what they believe or who they are, they're. They. They matter, right? They're. They're in a general. In a broader sense, they're children of God in the sense that God made them. Right. That they bear God's image. And so if, and in that, what I love about the idea of beloved community, it's kind of like some parallels to the way the church works. If one member suffers, all suffer. And so, so King had that kind of thought. If someone in our community and our. Which would be our nation is suffering, then in a sense, we all are suffering. We may not realize it, but we, but we are. We're missing out on something, on that person's contribution. And we're just. We're failing in our responsibilities to care for one another. So in the beloved community, right, people's basic needs are met. It's not that, you know, it's not everybody gets an iPhone or something, but, you know, people's basic health care needs, food, shelter, clean water, safe place to live. Like, those are the goals we set out. And yeah, it's really. It's a way to see and act with and towards other people. It's really grounded in love. So of course I'm going to invest more of my time and energy in my close friends, my people, in my physical pro, you know, surround my town, my church, my family, my, My students here. At pku. But there's still ways I can love, you know, the, the child of immigrants who's in El Paso, Texas, or, you know, the, the. The farmer in wherever, Nebraska. I mean, just all those different things. And so where there's a care for others, so that beloved community, it's a. It's realizes that even though we think it's that American individualism, we don't need anybody else. It's. It's the discovery and the application of the truth that our good is bound up with the good of others. And so as we help them, we really are helping ourselves. And if it does. But even if we're sacrificing things in a more holistic way, that's okay. That's good. And we're helped, you know, we're better in other ways. Right. I'm made a better person if I love others because. And I sacrifice things that maybe I want for them. So. Yeah, that's the big picture of it. [00:49:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Gosh, thank you so much for that. I thought it was just a beautiful way to end the book and to. To bring some hope. You know, I mentioned that I've, I've. I've been reading about this topic for a while, mostly for my own edification and education. I'm like, I. I really feel like I need to understand this, but sometimes when I read, it feels daunting, it feels hopeless, you know, those kinds of things. And so it was really refreshing to, to see King's ideas reflected again in this way, especially this week. And as we, as we close out, I love, I love to ask professors especially, and I'll. Maybe I'll frame it a different way this time, but you've got young folks in your classroom. I feel like an old person. Like, I remember. Right. I remember what it was like to be a junior, you know, sitting. Sitting in that. Sitting in that class, sitting in that philosophy class, sitting in that history class. But maybe I would say either. What would you. What kind of overarching theme would you want to share with your students? Or maybe what hopefulness do you see as you're in the classroom with this generation of folks? [00:50:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for. Probably some thoughts, for both. For the overarching. I mean, most of the classes I teach are in ethics, teaching things in our honors program. But, but basically I would, I would want them to think, to say, no matter what. What your other beliefs about, you know, your religious faith or not having one or whatever it is, I try. I want them to see the value of being a person of of good character like that. That's really fundamental to a good life. Just your own. Excuse me, I mean, happiness, but not in a, like happy. I'm just. Life's going my way and I'm, you know, have a rosy outlook, but that deeper sort of thing that the abundant life as Jesus talks about it, or human flourishing, as maybe the ancient Greeks and some Christians thinkers have called it. So that for. I want them to see that you want. You're here for a reason, right? Yeah. You want to get the degree for your career, but education is about these other things too. It's about what's valuable to me, what matters. And reflecting on your values, thinking through pros and cons of them. Sometimes you'll change your mind, sometimes you'll like, deepen your convictions. But I want them to see the character matters and I want them to see that kind of this, the. The community matters. Right. That it's not just about me now, of course, yeah, that. That we're individuals, but we're part of this larger nation, larger community. And so that doing our part for the. For the common good is important too. And so whatever they do, if they, like, if they evaluate their own character, then they're going to be better. Their jobs, better parents, better friends, spouses, better citizens. And then just to see that, you know, it does matter if somebody else is suffering and I can do something about it, I shouldn't just ignore it or be callous towards it. The hopefulness part, yeah, it's been really interesting as I felt like during. And even barely, you know, for a year, year and a half after Covid. Like, I felt like a lot of my students, they were almost like just in shell shock. Like, they show up and they're just there. And just all the weirdness of that and the difficulties of it, I've noticed last year and this year, like a sort of renewed enthusiasm. Like, and then. And this is just. And then students coming up to me after class, asking me questions about the class. Like, I was thinking about this or not about, you know, I'm not going to be here. How can I make up the test I missed or what, you know, but just actual engagement with ideas. And so I think. I think the hard thing is I've realized that these students, we mentioned this earlier, the hard thing is they, A lot of them don't take things for granted that I took for granted. Like, democracy is going to be good if I. I get my degree in work, I can buy a home, I can be financially secure. I may not be Wealthy because, you know, you're not going to be being a philosophy professor. It's not unless you're like, you know, handful of schools where you can make big money at Eastern Kentucky University, it's not the path to financial, you know, wealth, but it's enough. Right. And, but they don't, they just, they don't take that for granted. Like to think I had a student last semester in class in a healthy way. He was upset. It's like I can do all this stuff and this American dream that gets put before me, but there's no guarantee, like I could work and never own a home and never X, Y or Z. So. So I think they don't feel that financial and more general security. So I'm trying to understand that and figure out what that means for how I teach and interact with them. But yeah, they, but they care. They're interested and they care about more than just, yeah, like kind of the 80s greed is good. Like they're not like, like our generation in the 1980s, it was many of us were like, you know, just make money. Right. And they actually care about things. Apart from that, they want to. They think more holistically and many of them out life. So that's good. They care about the way, what kind of country we have in broader ways than just their own self interest, many of them. So that's something I'm hopeful for. [00:55:04] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing that, Mike. That brings me hope too. I love to think about young adults that age asking those kinds of questions and being engaged in those kinds of conversations. I hope we're raising some of those kids in our home as well. You know, who we're thinking about things in those holistic kinds of ways. But anyway, I appreciate it and thanks for your work in the classroom as well as your work outside of it. Again, the name of this book. It's a short little read. I would just say grab it. It's so helpful in understanding what we're seeing going on around us. American Christian Nationalism Neither American nor Christian by Michael W. Austin, philosophy professor in Kentucky. Thank you so much again for coming on the show today. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. I enjoyed it. [00:56:04] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected].