Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay. So sometimes, Andrew, it works that if I tear up a little bit and pre record there's been a few occasions when that's happened, not just today, then I'm normally okay for the rest of the show, but we'll see because this is, it's, it's a, it's an emotional topic for me.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I, I'm, it's, I'm, it's an honor to be here, an honor to be with you and whatever comes up, let's, let's go there. I, I am a therapist by trade, so when I see tears, I'm like, I'm ready. I'm ready.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: That's. Oh, that's what I was getting ready to say is, is I'm here with Dr. Andrew J. Bauman, therapist and author of this really incredible book that I finished this week. It's called Safe how to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities. And I really, really, I really just want to dive in because like Ma will say first, my, my student mindset is like all over this because, you know, not only is it generally well researched and well written, but it, but you talked to a lot of women and surveyed. Yeah, surveyed a lot of women. And so I want to get there, but first I want to ask. It seems like a real obvious question for anyone who has even glanced up at the American, specifically white evangelical Protestant world in the last, oh, I don't know, two or three decades, church doesn't feel safe. And a lot of it, I'll just say is, stems back from experiences that people have had with predominantly male leadership who have been hurtful, abusive, harmful, and then the, again, predominantly men around them who support them anyway. And I say support in a, in a kind of an air quotes kind of way because they're really not being supportive, they're being harmful of the, of the abusive men as well. But men who support their agendas, we should say maybe, yes, men, this kind of thing, who just continue to promote that kind of behavior.
And so anyway, it's been rough. It's been, it's been a rough while. So I guess my question for you is maybe not necessarily why this book? Why now? But I am kind of asking that because I'm staring at a man.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Writing this.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And so why? Like, I have to go back further of kind of the why. Because it starts in my own origin story of my father was a pastor and also secret, deceptive sexuality and cheated on my mom for 25 years and was a prominent evangelical leader. They wanted him to run for political office. And this is in the 80s. And so that's my origin story. So he gets caught. Somebody finds out who he is, blackmailed. He's, you know, he was also a vice president of a Christian college, steals money from the college to try to pay off the blackmail. You know, gets caught. Like, it's just this cluster. And I'm eight years old. Right. So I'm eight years old. I obviously don't know any of this. It's all going on. But I feel it in my body because I'm a sensitive little boy. And so I feel tension. But no language is given to me of. To name the tension that I feel. So I develop ocd, I develop depression. I'm starting to see a therapist at age 5 because I think my parents didn't. I'm suicidal. You know, it's just like, what in the world world? Like my body is beginning to bear the weight of a story that's not mine. And so that was kind of the beginning of this. And my mother, oh man, she is. You know, every morning we're listening to, you know, Focus on the Family. And of course, Rush Limbaugh is always right there. You know, it's just like, this is my mom. All she wants to do is be a good Christian wife. And she's married to this narcissist who has these hidden life and addictions.
And so that was kind of the. My beginning. My mother then went numb after the betrayal. And so, you know, three, three kids, single mom. We moved to North Carolina from Florida where my mom's parents lived. And like, that's the beginning. So I remember kicking rocks down this gravel road and just feeling immense shame that my older sister, older brother wouldn't play with me. And I found one kid, but he was five. His name was Ryan. I still remember this. This is crazy, but I remember he was my only friend. And I just remember how much shame I felt as an 8 year old that my friend was 5 and I was 8, right. So that's, that's where I began. And that was me feeling this immense. Like I felt like an orphan, right? So Then fast forward 5, 10 years of becoming adolescent. Internet becomes a thing. I find pornography, but I'm also goes to church. I also go to church three times a week, you know, because my mom were still just constant. That was kind of who began to parent me was the church. And so I developed these kind of simultaneously. Nobody's talking about sexuality because there's so much shame there. Nobody's talking about my origin story and my wounds. And so I'm developing these. And then I'm also beginning to get into Internet pornography. And so the development of both is this weird like purity culture, right? And like, you know, I mean, true love, weights, rallies and all that. And then this secret hidden sh.
Like it's weird and it's weird inside of me. Like what's, like what's happening with me? And so. And then of course I become a pastor. And so that is. And then I still have this, you know, for 13 years I had this hidden addiction from my teenage years into my early 20s and, and just slowly realizing I am a fraud. Like, I like what is going on inside of me here. I'm a pastor. I was a youth and college pastor only for like two years.
And then realizing this, like, I can't tell the truth in this, in ministry, in the church. I like, I can't deal with what I need to deal with. I have to tell the truth of my story. I have to be more honest. I have to face my deepest shame and my deepest fear. That's like, that's what I have to do. And so the last 20 plus years has been me doing that. And in facing my shame of being, you know, recovery misogynist, being, you know, somebody who was a part of a church staff, all my buddies, we all looked the same, we all told the same jokes. It was like, it was great. I loved it. But like realizing, wait a minute, I'm part of the problem, like now realizing part of my purpose. Speaking truth to power is actually, you know, like, I can find my purpose as I face my shame, as I tell the truth of my heartache in my story. And in that, like, I'm learning what it means to actually be an advocate for women rather than an abuser of women. So that's the short answer.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Thanks. Thanks for sharing that, Andrew.
Again, I still have a pen in the surveys, in the research part because I really, I'm anxious to get there. But given what you've just shared, one of the things that struck me so much about this book, and it was threaded throughout Is was when you talked about what men and kind of alluded to it in your own story, especially with the, you know, being on staff at a church and all this. But like what men inherently learn about women, but also about themselves, just societally, just culturally, just growing up here, you know, I will say, you know, regard, one of the things I've reflected on recently is regardless of where people sit politically, we just had an election whose results I'm grieving, by the way, but we just had an election and this is not the first time in recent history, but in my adult life we've had two women run as a major party candidate and both times they lost.
And, and I look and I say this isn't just a church problem, although it definitely is a church problem. This isn't just a Christian community problem, even though it definitely is a Christian community problem. But we have a 250 year old country who has never seen a female leader.
And, and this is, you know, we, we could count CEOs and you know, this, this kind of thing.
And, and in a lot of ways Christians will reflect back and say in general, oh, we should know better. I, you know, we've heard this from Christians so we should know better. We, we have the Holy Spirit, we have the teachings of the Bible and they, and this is in many different areas of life.
But Christian communities are often less safe places for women than, than even the, the, you know, societal or cultural places at large, even though women are not well represented in those places. And so I'm, I'm, that's a kind of a big preface. But my, what I'd like for you to elaborate on, especially as a man is where some of these things come from. But like how, you know, how is it just kind of that men just grow up kind of learning these I'll say in, in air quotes kind of truths about men and women and how they should interact and who they are.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Well, I mean what you're describing is the socialization of masculinity. And so just as there is for women, for men, there's some, there's some things that we are told of what men are supposed to be and do, whether it's voiced or not, right? So men are not supposed to be emotional, right? We are supposed to be stoic, we're not supposed to feel.
And same goes with what women are and what we are told women are supposed to do. And so when you mix those socializations with theology that is intersected with patriarchy, misogyny and these things and then you Take a few verses and then you misinterpreted those verses, then it becomes a really dangerous thing. Especially if I am a spiritual leader, because then we got the spiritual abuse, which if I am in charge and I am, in a sense, your spiritual guide, then I am the voice of God to you. And so if I have any type of unaddressed wounds or any type of shadow work that I haven't done on myself, then I will project my insecurity, my shame onto you. Right? So if, you know, I always refer to the 2014 Barna Study of pornography and the pastors of saying some, about 50% had some type of relationship with porn.
So if that is the case, then what do I have to do if I have a secret relationship with pornography? Okay, so then what. What happens? Well, internally, I end up feeling that shame. And instead of dealing with that shame, because then I might lose my job, then I. I'm going to project. I'm going to talk a lot about modesty. I'm going to make it a woman's fault, right. I'm going to make it about her clothes, because I want to project safety, that I'm a safe, healthy man. I want to project these things. And I don't want to deal with my shame. I don't want to sit with my shame and what that'll cost me. I don't want to feel pain or feel potential, you know, the crucifixion, in a sense, because that's going to hurt to deal with what I need to deal with. So I'm going to leave the door open. I'm going to, you know, if I meet with a woman, I'm going to present the morality of boosting my own ego. But really, because I have a dark sense of shame and that I know I'm a fraud and I don't want to deal with it. So I think so much of this is this insecure men who haven't done their own emotional healing. And it's literally a projection from our shadow that's just abusing generations of women of women and making it about their bodies rather than our own sexual perversions.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: I saw a meme the other day that made me laugh because I'm kind of in this stage right now of I have to, you know, laugh to keep from crying. And I saw a meme the other day that said men will literally become president rather than go to therapy, you know, you know, just kind of like that, that, you know, that rise to power. Yes.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: And so what does that do? Right? Like what does that do? If I feel like an insecure little boy inside?
What's. What's the quickest way to not do that? Well, I'm going to power over a woman. I'm going to get positions of power because then I feel big. Oh, problem solved. Right? Like I'm done. I don't have to do any more work or oh, wait, this is all a mask and a front to guard and self protect. It's literally just a big projection. Now I see it. We see it all the time to the highest offices.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: Problem solved. I was going to say problem solved. Except. Except, okay, 50% of the population now has to deal with what's going on. So.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Let's talk about. That's right. Problem worsen. So let's talk about the women who were involved in your research, in the writing of this book. I would love for you to share some of those numbers because this was an incredible group of women who were surveyed, also women who were interviewed. I. You point out in the book. And maybe people might just read on past it, but because of where I am academically, I kind of want to point it out as a host and say these things that you did were. Because I'm learning, okay, Andrew, I'm learning about what actually takes to, you know, talk with people in this kind of setting and all of the hoops that you have to jump through academically. And you did all of that like you jumped through all of the hoops, you did all of the paperwork, all of the logistics, all of the ethical, everything that you needed to do. Every I dotted, every T crossed so that this wasn't just. You were like, hey, does anybody want to come chat about this? This was all like according to these standards.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: So, yeah. So I mean, inside scoop, basically I sent out the survey before I got the ethical review board at Northeastern University. And so basically the 2,800,000 women, or 200 whatever. How 200,000. Oh, the 2,800 women. That part did not end up getting into my dissertation, but this book was an adaption from my dissertation. And so but I had to change it all because I didn't do exactly. I didn't follow the code. So then I had to do an additional. So I basically did two separate studies. One is, you know, was from my ethical review board. And the other, I basically didn't wait the two weeks. And I gathered all this data before it was approved because it takes so long to approve so half of it. But again, both of them were the same path of trying to do this well, and do it right.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: And then create some real stats. Because I thought, I kind of figured this is probably the issue, but what, what actually is it? And that. And so I really wanted to approach this kind of as an investigative journalist saying what is the problem is? Because I started in, what was it, 2018, I read this study called the Elephant in the Valley and it was an Understanding sexism from women in Silicon Valley. And so I was like, huh, wonder what that's like in the church. Another male dominated space. And so that's where it started.
And so we, I mean we had 578 Baptists, 846 non denominational, 242 Pentecostals, 170 Presbyterians, you know, we had all these 59 Episcopals, 104 Methodists, so all these 37 Mennonites, all these different denominations represented.
And probably the base. One of the biggest failures of the study that I'd love for somebody else to take up was this was the majority of white women. So this was 94% white women. So I'd love to hear some from more diversity and the church.
Crazy. It was 20. I'm just, I don't want to mess up these stats. It was 25% had worked in the church 16 or more years.
16% worked 25 years or more in that wild 25 years. So we're not talking about just, you know, ran, you know, women that were. These are people on the front lines. These are women on the front lines experiencing this. And one of the stats said that eight women surveyed said 82% believe sexism plays a role in their church. 82%. And so what came out was the longer you worked in ministry, the more likely you were to experience sexism. Right. So there's a, there's a correlation. We have real stats now that, that say it. 62% said they wouldn't be surprised if they heard a sexist joke.
35% said that they suffered sexual harassment or some form of sexual misconduct or they answered it was complicated. Right. So there's a story there. So that's one in three. Right. So we're finding the church isn't safe. 77.9% that there felt that their career opportunities were limited because of their gender. Right. So there's a firm stained glass ceiling here of women. And so many men are unaware of it because we're so consumed with up. It's, this is, you know, I'm doing my, my godly call, what God calls me to do. And you know, I need her to make me some sandwiches or something. It's just so selfish and grandiose and disgusting. When truly women bear the image of God and we are one in Christ. There's no hierarchy here. And yet we've taken a few scriptures out of context and interpreted them poorly. And we actually treat women kind of the opposite way Jesus did, which is weird to me.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to share just a couple of other stats from the book that I thought were really interesting to get us started. So I think it's important to reiterate what you said about when you made the connection to Silicon Valley about the church being another male dominated, I would say field vocational area, you know, that kind of thing. This, you quote that only 14% of congregations in the U.S. are led by women.
Like that to me, 14%. Like, I think if this was.
And often, I think if this was any other, any other thing, you know, if we said only 14% of small businesses were owned by women, you know, like that's not even true. Like not. I mean, I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine, right, that that's true or, you know, how many, I don't know, K through 12 principles or, you know, like whatever. Yes, we could name you. Just random things. And you think there are hardly other spaces where the numbers are that low.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: For women in leadership. I, I'm, I will try, I'm going to try and restrain myself just a little bit. But this is one of those areas that really gets to me and in part because of where I have been, you know, in my education and career and things like this. So I think it's interesting. I occasionally will pulpit fill, you know, so a pastor's gone from a church and especially in mainline denominations, you know, sometimes they have lay preachers, but often, you know, they'll just have someone either from the denomination or they'll, you know, say, hey, they'll reach out to the local seminary. Do you, do you have some students, you know, or graduates who might want to come? And it's really interesting and some my experience, now this is just anecdotal, but I am in Houston, great large, diverse city, but in a really conservative state and just region in general here in the South.
But I was reflecting as I was reading your book on some of my experiences and to, to one point I.
Countless times I've been, you know, told, or it's been at least implied to me that, you know, they, the church leadership or the congregations where I go to, to fill in, they just Love to have a diversity of voices, you know, okay, this is great. And so, you know, they don't really care. I'm coming in from outside and you know, whatever. So this is great. Maybe I don't share the same traditions exactly.
I'm a woman, I'm mixed Hispanic. But people are like, yeah, we, we love the diversity. Awesome. And then I thought, I don't know how many of those churches that I've been to are actually led by women. I don't think any of them actually have a lead female pastor.
Most of them my contact is a female though. She is the administrator. She might be the liturgist. Right. You see where I'm going. You know, some of these things. She's organizing probably the whole service.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Doing the invisible work.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Right, Doing the invisible work.
But not, you know, sometimes not even on staff, just, you know, a volunteer. So anyway, so it's one of those things. 14% that was, that was wild to me. The other thing that I just want to say on the same page in the book, but I bracketed it again, it kind of goes back to what I was sharing earlier about the church being kind of less safe in some of these ways.
You say when, when asked whether they were comfortable with A woman as CEO, only 77% of evangelicals responded yes, as compared to 94% of Americans as a whole. This is 20 something percentage point or almost, you know, almost 20%. Ish.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: So what does that stat say? Like, okay, the church is inherently more sexist than, than the culture.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Why? And this is where I wanted to get to the root of. Because obviously Jesus, who is supposed to be the guide of our church, the way he lives his life, the way he engages women is so opposite. So it's like, how did we get here? And that was. So some of the, you know, won't bore you with, with stuff, but some of the history of kind of sexism, patriarchy, some of the, the Greek right in Roman world that Jesus kind of was into in the early church, there's these deeply patriarchal systems that are very anti women. And then much of it comes from, you know, my own family would say, well, I'm just a Bible believer, right? I'm just, I just follow the, just follow the word and it's just like, ah, okay, interesting. And then yet if you read First Corinthians 14:34, women should be silent in churches not permitted to speak.
First Timothy 2:11, a woman should learn quietly. Full submission. I do not allow a woman to teach or have Authority over a man. She is to remain quiet. If I just read that, huh? Like, I would too be like, oh, seems pretty clear to me. And so. But if you actually begin to read the verses, well, with intellectual integrity, like, what will you see? What will you. What? Like what? And this is when, okay, the word hushua does not mean women be quiet. Sorry. It means stillness.
Huh? Women be still within yourself. Right? Like, well, that. That changes everything. What if it doesn't mean to silence all women for all time, but it means women be still? I also love to think of, like, in that patriarchal culture where women are so subjugated and oppressed. The early church is like the opposite, right? Because you have Paul really empowering women, saying they are co. You know, co leaders.
Priscilla the apostles amongst the apostles in Romans 16, right? You have all these examples. Philip had four daughters who prophesied in Acts 21, Phoebe in Romans 16:1. Like, you have all these examples of women, like, leading and being a part of this early church movement. I like to think there was just a few women that were so pumped up that they had a voice that they were being disruptive. And he's like, stop. Like, hey, you two, stop.
And yet somehow it's been, you know, articulated. All women of all time should be quiet, right? And then you think of the word authority, which was authority. And. And what it actually means is, you know, it's a loose translation of a Greek word, and it actually means abusing one's authority. So when it says women, I don't permit to. You have authority over a man. What it should actually read women, I don't permit you to abuse your authority over a man, which actually implies authority, which actually applies mutuality, which is actually what a healthy relationship should be, right? Is a team. And my wife is better at some things than I am, and she leads, and I'm better at other things, and I lead. And we're a team because we want our team to be successful, right? Like, so these are a few of these problematic texts. And we need to interpret consistently all the texts. Because if you think first Timothy2.8 means silencing all women of all time, then you're going to have a lot of problems with other scripture because it contradicts a myriad of other texts. Luke 24, 9, John 4, 30, 39. Right. Judges 5, 7, Exodus 15, 20, Luke 1:46. It's like, good luck trying to interpret. But we pick and choose what we want to, because I believe of our own internalized misogyny and our own issues with Power rather than. What if we actually took Acts 2:18 seriously? That I will pour out my spirit on both men and women. They will prophesy or Galatians 3:28. No Greek or Jew, slave or free, no male or female, because we are one in Christ Jesus. Come on.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: You know, I liked in that section how you utilize citations from a few female theologians. And I want to point that out for more than one reason. I guess first is because as a female theologian, it's always great to see another, you know, other female theologians being cited.
The other is that, you know, all of these texts, and this is me kind of getting on my soapbox for 2.2 seconds. But it's like all of these texts that are so clear, you know, I just, I'm like, suit. My. My education has done me wrong or maybe done me right in some of these ways where I get real suspicious when I hear someone telling me what the Bible clearly says. Clearly doesn't say exactly. I just want to say, oh, how can we be sure what's clear in this instance? But one of the. My little. My little soapbox here. And the reason I bring up the women being cited is that, oh, I don't know, for, I don't know, at least a couple of thousand years, if we do the math, we know that's all of it.
The primary interpreters of at least New Testament Bible have been men. And so it's like, how can we really have clarity if that's what we're going for? How can we have this, you know, valuable communal interpretation if. If throughout history, the men who. It's been men who have been interpreting and then men who have been interpreting the men who interpreted before that, you know. You know, so we have a. A man who's interpreting Augustine, who's interpreting, you know, when you're like, okay, you know, I mean, this is all over the place.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Exactly. And you can't remove emotional health with spiritual health. So if these men are emotionally unhealthy, like, guess what?
[00:30:19] Speaker A: They're going to probably, you know, one or two more, Right.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Very much so. They're going to be spiritually unhealthy. I mean, you look at. I think one of the most egregious. Right. Is when you look at American slavery, Right. And so what did they do with passages like slaves obey your masters, Right. Well, they created the slave Bible in 1807.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: Which literally took out the story of Exodus, the whole. The whole book.
They just removed it because they did not want to inspire blacks to Break free from the oppressive systems that they benefited from.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: That's right. And it's. And it's really. I mean, that's another place where I get, you know, I took a. A course on slavery in the New Testament. It was just super fascinating. We talked about a lot of those things. But one of the things that, you know, kept coming to my mind and continues to, and we name things like that is that for the most part, praise the Lord. This is one of the things where we say we are not utilizing the Bible to try and enslave people. Like, we look at this and say, slavery is an evil injustice. This is not okay. And yet at the same time, we turnaround. And the passages that you named, well, this is clear, you know, like, well, slaves obey your masters. That's, you know, like, that's a statement. No one, at least now I'm going to step all over myself is, Is, you know, trying to utilize this for oppressive purposes. Praise the Lord. It was used for oppressive purposes. And that was evil and unjust and just, ugh, everything gross.
But with women, we are. We continue to be in a different place where these passages are continued to be used for oppressive and unjust purposes.
[00:32:17] Speaker B: And I've literally, I can't tell you how many times. I just remember I'm early on in my career as a therapist. I'm sitting with this couple, and the, the guy and the woman agree.
He sits and quotes these verses over her so he. So she will learn to submit to his sexual fetishes, which were not enjoyable or that she obviously wanted to participate in. And I'll spare you from the grotesque details, but, like, oh, these verses are actually. Not only are they misunderstood, they are used to abuse and to manipulate and to basically say, God is on my side and you better shut up and do what I want, even if it's sick and gross, because in a sense, I am God.
[00:33:11] Speaker A: I think that's an important thing to probably just more than parenthetically point out here is that in all of these places, when we're talking about scripture passages being used for the abuse, oppression, evil treatment of others, this is what we now have language for this. It's. It's a lot of other things too. But included in that it is spiritually abusive and that, you know, one of you, you're a therapist. I can let you define it in the, in the more clear way. But the, the thing that when I first started realizing, oh, my goodness, this is a thing, and then I could see it, then I thought about experiences that I Had, had, you know, that kind of thing. It is so powerful and it's so powerfully wound.
Is someone usually, sometimes who you trust, often who you trust will tell you something. Well, this is one of my definitions. Tells you something about yourself.
And they do it with the authority of God.
And that is abusive in what we were just talking about. This is a slave master telling an enslaved person something about him or herself that is not true, but telling it about that person to that person with the authority of God.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: Dangerous.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: And it's just. Yes, it's dangerous and evil and it's grotesque.
And it is being utilized every day, every week in many of the places that we want to be safe but are not safe for women. Because women are being told.
We are being told things about ourselves that aren't true, but with the authority of God.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Yes, Briefly, through the lens, I just wanted to add through the lens of insecure, underdeveloped, wounded men, that many have not done their own internal healing work.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Right. And sometimes I will say, you know, kind of jokingly, if I'm in the. In the right context, you know, you know, say things like, but what do I know? I'm just a woman. Or, you know, things like this. Because these are the kinds of things that women are being told. You are inherently less than. Meaning. God created men and women, and he created women as a less than creature. They are not as smart, they are not as capable of leadership. They are not as emotionally stable. They are not as capable at making decisions.
You know, there are all of these things that, you know, women are told about themselves and done so with the authority of God. We'll just go back to Genesis, right. This is what happened, and this isn't new.
This is building upon centuries of sexist interpretation of the Scripture. But, you know, it's just like any other oppressive or discriminatory situation when someone is told that about themselves enough, you know, if they don't come to believe at least parts of it.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Most of the time there is some sort of incongruency there inside of themselves.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: Totally. And many women I talk to felt like they actually had to lose their faith to become healthy.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: Yes, I believe that.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: Right. It's just like, wait a minute. And really what they're doing is they're not actually losing their faith. Many of them have profound, beautiful relationships with God, but they have to change their relationship with the church and with these systems, or they literally cannot be a healthy person.
But they still love God, but they don't trust. Trust the system that they're a part of it reminded me when you're talking about the joking in the 62% of women that said they wouldn't be surprised if they heard a sexist joke. It reminded me of Dr. Thomas's Ford research at Western Carolina University.
He published a study called More Than a Joke, the Prejudice releasing function of sexist Humor, which pro proved the exposure to sexist humor increases tolerance of discrimination. Right. And then also he said that sexist humor acts as a releaser of prejudice for women who have poor attitudes, agnostic attitude, antagonistic. There we go. And I was trying to avoid that word, antagonistic attitudes towards women. So basically, sexist humor just proves if you already have a poor relationship with women, it's a release valve. It's a, you know, it's letting the air out of a balloon. So as you hear, you know, a pastor making a joke about women in the kitchen or women drivers on their way to church, which I grew up with hearing all the time, like, what does that say? That they actually have pre existing negative attitudes towards women. It's not funny, right? And so time and time again, women would talk about what happened when they would stand up, you know, to the joke and say, wait, this is. And every time gaslit. It's just, it's men will be men locker, locker room talk. It'll just, you know, just get over it. If you want to be in ministry, just get over it.
Right? You're being too, too much. You're, you know, classic. Just constantly taking a women's intuition, just stabbing it, stabbing it, stabbing it. So then what you're referring to is then women begin to develop this internalized misogyny that I am less than that. I, I don't need to trust my body. My body is bad because it is a seductive thing versus, wait, actually, what if the men that you're around actually kind of have some sick sexual things that they have to address. I'm reminded of Hannah, who I interviewed. She described, and again, I changed the name so to protect anonymity, but we'll call her Hannah. She described trips to the lake when she was an adolescent girl. So her and her siblings were made to wear full kind of neck modesty, bathing suits, right? So full arms, everything. And her dad's friend applauded, talked to her dad and said, I just thank you so much that I don't have to worry about lust when I come to the lake with you all. And so she was applauded for protecting her brother in Christ.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: And yes, a grown man, by the way.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And yet. But the healthy response, instead of blaming it on teenage girls would have been, do you realize that your friend is a potential, like, pedophile is a potential, like, who's sexualizing teenage girls? Like, don't you think that's a huge red flag, that maybe he shouldn't come to the lake anymore?
[00:40:16] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: And instead of making it about modesty and blaming these young girls, maybe you should confront. But what happens when you stand up against the boys club, right? This is where you run into the socialization of masculinity is I become ostracized from then my community, from the boys, from the. You know, the bro code, right? So there's a bro code, and we need to honor it, even if it's unsaid. So for me to confront somebody else that they're being sexist, they're like, that's what needs to happen. I no longer need to be a bystander to sexism. Right? That's the work. So I remember writing an article about that, I don't know, five years ago, okay, so I'm writing a blog about no longer being a bystander to sexism. I'm walking down the street the next day. This is no joke.
And I hear a cat call, okay, From a guy to a woman. And I go, crap. I just wrote that article about not being a bystander to sexism. Like, I need to say something. I don't want to be a hypocrite. So then I'm like, what do I say? You know, it's all happening very quick. And I turned to this guy, and I go, she's a human. Don't talk to her like that. It was so unarticulate and terrible.
But I was just like. And then he just started cussing me out. And then I just kind of scurried off. That was it. There's no heroics there. But in that moment, I feel like I'm proud of myself. Even as terrible as that sounded, even though I pride myself on being an authentic man, I just. That was weird because I'm unpracticed at interrupting sexism, right? And so I've gotten better. And yet I'm still not great at it, because in a sense, it's supposed to be. It's funny. You're. You're not cool if you don't join, right? And so it's like, that's where I'm still at of, like, I want to interrupt this, and that's my job as a man. Because far too Long women have borne the brunt of our insecurities, our abuse, and men have not come alongside. And so that is what I want to do and what I want to get better at.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: I like that framing and that phrasing of interrupting the sexism.
And you know, as you're talking, I just, I just kind of sit here and I go, I'm just kind of like, personally I'm like, is there even any hope? I mean, this, you know, like there's, there's so much that's just like, especially when I look at that. And I think back to the statistic that we first, one of the ones we first brought up of, of, you know, only 14% of congregations in the US are led by women. You know, then I'm like, it's hard to interrupt a bro code when it's just bros, you know, in the room.
On a side note, I feel like I'd kick myself later if I didn't say this.
But on a side note, after I graduated with M. Div, I was looking around it, pastoral job postings, you know, things like again, in, in Houston, in Texas in general, these things come up and I was struck again. You know, we say, how many other places would it be where there's only 14 of women who are, who are leading these organizations?
But then I also thought, how many other industries, maybe we could say industry, for lack of a better word. How many of the other industries out there where gender is the main qualifier? And this is what I mean.
Yes, and it depends. You know, there are different traditions. You know, mainline tend to, tend to, I won't say they value education more, but they, they tend to require clergy people to have educations more than in my experience than some of the non mainline, you know, non denominational or just kind of other, you know, say, you know, Baptist or something like this.
Anyway, so I'm saying that I grew up in a church with a, with a pastor who had zero theological education and an associate's degree in a field that was unrelated.
And so anyway, but it's, but I say that, you know, to say a lot of the postings I saw didn't list an educational requirement. You know, so if you were gonna, if you wanted to get a job as, oh, I don't know anything else, a lot of times they would have what the requirement. You got to have a high school diploma, you got to have a four year degree in business, or you have to have a four year degree in something. Or maybe you have to have a trade, you know, you have to have two years of a trade of this or that.
These postings don't listen anything, didn't listen to anything about education for the most part, I will say what they did do that I thought was interesting as compared to other job postings.
The language, instead of being gender neutral like qualified candidate or future pastor or something like that, were all male pronouns.
And the main qualifier I saw was from our good friend Paul to his good friend Timothy.
And I wasn't qualified for many of these positions that I looked at last year because I was not the husband of but one wife.
And so not only we have a gender qualification, but oftentimes a marital, you know, a relational qualification that was there so, you know, no higher education needed, but this person had to be a man and he had to be married.
And I'll just say that if we want the Bros Club in leadership in churches to change, it's pretty difficult when you have women out there with perhaps higher theological education who can't gain access into some of these positions because they don't fit the qualifications of being a married man.
That's tough.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: I won't ever be a married man.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: No.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: I have an M. Div. In a few years, I'll hopefully, you know, cross my fingers, have my Ph.D. but I won't ever be a married man.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: And a lot of my colleagues are in the same position where we can't break that glass ceiling because we don't inherently have those.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Qualifications.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Yes.
I echo Kevin Garcia who says bad theology kills. Right. And so our poor interpretations of Scripture have led to these problematic theologies and dangerous teachings. And you're literally on the front lines feeling that marginalization and confronting these toxic behaviors.
[00:46:58] Speaker A: Well, I want to. I want to finish on a higher note than where we've been and ask you in these last few minutes that we have, where have you seen this done? Well, and maybe not where, but like, in what ways? You know, in what ways we. We can see the problems. I would encourage people to grab a copy of the book that the pie charts themselves are worth the purchase price.
The survey responses were so interesting to me and so relatable.
So we know the problems and we've talked a lot about the problems, but in what ways are you seeing this done? Well? What maybe. What are some of the motivations or the things that are really in people that are saying we want to change the status quo.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it has to start, I believe, as leaders, you can't take people further than you've gone yourself. So you Got to do that internal work. If you have unaddressed places of sexism and misogyny, you've got to address that. You've got to do your own work. That's the, I think, the most important thing. And so if you want to develop, you know, and implement good policies and healthy safeguards that it encourages equity, great. But like you're not going to do that unless you've dealt with your core and the misogyny inside of you. Right. And then that leads to starting the conversation. Right. It's like, we've got to start this conversation. Open dialogue sessions in church. Start talking about abuse, start talking about trauma, talking about sexism. Let's just open it up. Right? How many sermons have you heard about domestic violence? Okay. One out of four women are experiencing domestic violence. How many sermons, how many sermons have you heard of sexual abuse and sexual violence? 1 out of 3 women will experience some type of sexual violence. So let's start talking about these things that matter. Right. And then obviously as a church, to become more healthy and implicate, implement these safeguards, yearly abuse trainings, you know, criminal background checks, obviously for people on staff. Familiarity, familiarity with policies and reporting procedures. Right. If you just have kind of that top down CEO model and there's one pastor and you know, there's no accountability, like that's dangerous there. Right. What happens, and we've seen it time and time again is they'll have some type of moral failure and they'll just go start another church.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: You know, within 10 minutes it's like, oh, no, I learned my. I've forgiven. Right. Which is another. You know, I talk about that in chapter six or seven when I talk about damaging theologies and teaching is weaponizing forgiveness.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Right. Cheap grace. Oh, no, I'm good, I'm forgiven. Ready to move on. God's forgiven me. And they just go start another church. And they literally just actually hide their abuse more because.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: Right, patterns.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so that's like, those are just some basic things of how we begin to start creating the safe church. And obviously what women said it time and time again. I think one of the most important is we just wanted representation. We just wanted a woman at the table. So one, one woman was sharing. Jackie was sharing with me.
She was raped by.
He was a. There was a Christian school and then I guess it was maybe attached to a church, but he was a leader in the school teacher and then also in the church. And. And immediately the pastor confronted her for making him cheat on his wife. Being a Harlot or a tempter. Right. And this is like a older teenager, right? 18.
And realize. And hearing her story just. It's heartbreaking. But then one time, I guess the pastor's wife sat in on the meeting or something, another meeting, and he. The pastor talked about, you know, something about consensual sex. And then the wife interrupted him and said, well, I think it was rape or something, or like that. Just like. And she was like, oh, finally, like, somebody named it for what it was rather than blaming me, you know. And again, how do you look at the. If sexual abuse, you look at the. The positions of power. Okay, who holds the power is if you can determine if it's an issue of abuse or not. Because even if you have two consenting adults, but one's in a position of power, it changes the whole story. It changes the game. It's an inappropriate use of power, and you're exploiting and abusing. And so that's the hope is that actually leaders do your work. You know, women, men, continue to interrupt sexism. Let's continue to speak out. And I hope this book at least helps the conversation along.
And I hope that actually people, you know, I hope it's not just an echo chamber. And actually, people do challenge themselves to read it, but it will be challenging, you know, men, it'll be challenging to read. And many of the women that are finding it and writing reviews and stuff are saying how healing it is, but also how painful it is to read because many of these women have pushed it away.
These pains. Because these are wounds, right? The word trauma literally means wounded. And so these are deep traumas and wounds. The beautiful part about the word trauma, meaning wound, is that there actually is, like, healing ointment for the wound that means the wound can be healed. And so my hope is that this book, though painful, will also be a healing balm for some deep traumas of. Of pain.
[00:52:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I will echo what some of those women reviewers have said. It was.
It was in many ways very, very healing, even reading it, because it's. It's not a Misery Loves Company kind of thing at all. But it's not a commiserating together, really. It's just, oh, someone.
And. And I would say, you know, even a man. Even a man. And all of these women, you know, someone sees me.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: I wasn't part of your survey, but reading it, I could have been, you know, and reading it, I just say, oh, someone. Someone sees us. Maybe that's how it is. You know, someone sees us. Someone Someone hears us when we say, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard a sexist joke. Of course, you know, this is par for the course, you know, and instead of someone saying what we've always heard, men will be men, or can't you take a joke or lighten up, someone says, I may just stumble into trying to interrupt this, you know, as, as you, as you shared. And so, yeah, so I'm really grateful, I would imagine, and that will be my last thing I'll say is I would imagine that reading this as a man would be tough as well, but for different reasons. As you mentioned, I'm challenging and.
But I hope that a lot of men will pick this up and read it with sincerity and a view to what they might be able to do in their own communities, in their spheres of influence, as we say, to disrupt or interrupt those places of sexism.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: Thank you again so much. I'm going to name this book again, of course, there will be a link to where folks can grab a copy of it. Help me, Andrew. Is this forthcoming or is this out?
[00:54:37] Speaker B: I should have looked last week. It came out last Tuesday.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah, congratulations. Yeah. So by the time this comes out, it will have been out for a little bit by the time this episode airs, but thank you so much. This is called Safe how to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities. Andrew, thank you so much for coming on today.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: Honor to be with you.
[00:55:00] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit us at ThatMakeStoreSENSE dot.
