Episode 310 - Nicole Massie Martin

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay, so I am really, really excited to have my guest, Nicole Massey Martin, here with me today. I shouldn't admit this. I have a friend who's like, don't say that. I shouldn't admit. We were just talking about podcasting that you just, like, slide these recordings in in various places, and you just kind of fit them where you need to. And I don't want to admit that I kind of did that with this book. I was reading it. We had swim team prelims and finals, like, back to back. And so one of the parents in the tent next to me was like, hey, what are you reading? And I'm like, okay. He's like, every time I see you're reading something different. Anyway, last summer it was Harry Potter. This summer, it was nailing it. So thank you, thank you, thank you for. I had this, like, wonderful poolside book that I read this weekend over prelims and finals. Anyway, so thank you for it. I can't wait to talk to you about it. [00:01:40] Speaker B: There's no substitution for Harry Potter, but, yes, thank you. [00:01:44] Speaker A: I mean, it kind of is true. Last. Last summer, I was on a break between academic programs, and my kids really wanted me to read all of the books, and so I read all of the books, and we watched all of the movies, and it was my first time. It was so much fun. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that is a lot of fun. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yep, it is a lot of fun. I had a classmate tell me when I shared it with our group, he said, oh. He said, I wish I could read Harry Potter again for the first time. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Oh, that is so sweet. That is very sweet. We're halfway through the first one that started two years ago. We're gonna get there. [00:02:16] Speaker A: You're gonna get there. You're gonna get there. I had, like, way too much time on my hands last summer, and so I was like, yeah, here we go. It did. Let me just say, it took me more than the summer. It took a while. There's a lot of books and a lot of pages, but they were so much fun. This one is fun, too. This one's also hard Nicole. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:02:34] Speaker A: This one is also hard. I want to say the full title and I'll say it again at the end. It's called Nailing It. Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender. And I guess I'm just full of admissions today. I'm like, if I admit when I first saw this, I was like, okay, demands, like demand suffering, demand surrender. I was unsure. Yeah, really. Of that premise. And then when I got in, I was like, oh yeah, she's right there. There we are. There we are. So maybe I want to start by asking you what I feel like is kind of an underlying foundation for the book. Maybe it was a thread for me for sure. And in the intro, you name something that I think has been really. Let me say this, see if I can say this. This has been a prevalent thought in some Christian circles of late. I really want to say, particularly since2020, probably when the world turned upside down in a lot of ways and people in the U.S. christians in the U.S. started kind of reckoning just with our faith. We had a lot of, you know, deconstruction. A lot of people saying, gosh, this isn't, I don't know about this, this doesn't seem to be working, you know, for, for some people. But you name this, that we have disconnected faith from discomfort. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:09] Speaker A: And also disconnected leadership from sacrifice. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:14] Speaker A: And I felt both of those were just so huge and felt really foundational for me as I read this book. So I mean, can you talk about that as like part of the, I mean if I'm wrong in reading, saying this is part of the premise of where, of where you are in this book. So maybe talk about that as like these underlying thoughts because you, you clearly in this statement, I think it's, it's obvious to say we have for a long time, many of us, oh, fate, a faith filled life means it's going to be comfortable. You know, leadership means I'm in a place where I don't have to sacrifice anymore, maybe. Or I'm, I'm in this, you know, this or that. So why discomfort? Why sacrifice? Why did you choose that message for this book? [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that, that kind of lead up because it is absolutely true. And the joy of talking about what I've written is it forces me to reflect not just on what has been written, but on the origins of it. In 2019 is when I actually started this process. 2019. Our family had just moved from Charlotte, North Carolina to Maryland. My husband just took on a new job with the Maryland State Health Department. My parents were both struggling with health challenges. I had young kids at the time. I believe they were five and three. So there was. To say a lot happening is probably an understatement. But at that time, I started to kind of realize my. My angst. I felt like, God, why is this season of life so hard? Why is it so hard raising kids? I was going through different things on my job and moving to different positions. Why is it so hard to make all of these transitions on my job? Even in church, it was like trying to find the right congregation and the right, you know, community for our kids and for us and where can we serve and where do we. And it was so hard. And that's when I started to realize maybe my perspective on what is, quote, hard is wrong. Because it was around that time that I also deepened my intercontinental connection, so to speak. So I have friends living in Kenya. I have friends living in Tanzania. I have friends living in Jerusalem. And I would hear from them what was a hard day. And it was very different from my. I had to wake up early and get my kids to my paid daycare. So on the very surface of life, I kind of wrestled with this angst that I have been taught to believe that my aim in life is to be comfortable financially, emotionally, spiritually, physically. And when I am uncomfortable, it is my job to write the scales. But when I read scripture, I feel anything but comfortable. When I see the cross, I don't have warm and fuzzy feelings because, oh, thank God. I see pain, I see suffering, but I see a grit and a willingness to suffer because there's resurrection on the other side. So that's what I'm trying to wrestle with in this text. What do we do in an age, in a society, in a world that values this ultimate goal of comfort with a gospel that jars us into a discomfort for the sa of resurrection, glory? And that's what I'm trying to unpack as we go through the chapters. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, thank you so much for that. And it really shows, I think. Oh, I don't. I dog ear a lot in my books, and I write notes. I usually say they're, like, so profound, like, yep. And preach and, you know, stuff like that. But it's not terribly common for me to go back to the table of contents and mark a full chapter. Wow. And. And I did that on your chapter on triumphalism. [00:08:07] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Oh, Nicole. I mean, I think this. What you just said leads right in to that. And particularly, you talk a lot about American exceptionalism. We. We have issues when it comes to exceptionalism, we have issues. When it comes to, I think in the church, in the American church, triumphalism is. It's just baked in. [00:08:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:08:38] Speaker A: And it is problematic. I mean, it is very problematic. I think one of the first places that I was made aware of that I was. I was following an author who has been on the podcast before. His name is Dante Stewart. And he was talking in 2020. I think he did like a live or something like that. He was talking in the context of the racial reckoning that was happening in the US but he named this triumphalism in the American church as very problematic. And it was a real. I would say it was a real paradigm shift for me, but it was one of those moments where I was like, I didn't really realize that was in the water that I've been drinking. So can you talk about that a bit more? Because, again, it was one of those places that was, like, foundational for me as I read the rest of the text. [00:09:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This triumphalism, again, for context, this is 2019 as I'm wrestling with these things. This is even pre 2000. 20. 2020 happened, and I had to pause my writing because the whole world changed. But I was still wrestling with what it looked like because it was so subtle. When I was in seminary, it was like anti prosperity gospel movement. So everybody understood, oh, my gosh, nobody should talk prosperity gospel. Because OB God is not only about your health and your wealth. God cares more about you in other ways. And also we had to confess that statistics show us that the happiest people on earth are not the wealthiest people. And the healthiest people. They're often people who are struggling, but they find joy in the little things. And it has nothing to do with their health or their wealth. So we demonize prosperity gospel. We say, that's not gonna work. But then we still take on the tropes of triumphalism and exceptionalism, and they show up in really subtle ways. It's the altar call where Jesus will make your life so much better. If you just come to the altar, everything will get better. Your life will get better. I've even heard it said, your jobs will get better. So it's not direct wealth, but God. When he gives you favor, when you come and give your life to Christ, God will bless you and give you favor. Beyond these moments, it shows up in the striving to be the best, the fastest, the biggest, and the entitlement that we deserve to be the best, fastest, and biggest. It's the I don't go to that church because the parking lot is too full. And deep down, what's playing behind that is I deserve to have a parking space in my house of worship that doesn't require, God forbid that I have to walk, let alone people in Haiti that walk for miles just to get to a safe place in the house of God. So triumphalism and exceptionalism plays itself out in what we say, but it also plays out in how we act. My colleague Russell Moore used a phrase two years ago that I will never forget. He said, it's theistic Darwinism. So it's like a spiritual survival of the fittest. I will only follow a leader who drives a nice car, who has a nice body, who. Whose marriage is one that I want to emulate. I will only have a pastor who makes really good money, who. Who makes me look good. I want to go out in the world and say, this is my pastor, because I want to be like that, because that is what real living looks like. So it's so sub. But this can erode the sense of who Jesus is. Because when you want to follow theistic Darwinism, when you want to follow exceptionalism, when you're looking for favor and blessing, you will not follow a surrendered, sacrificed savior. And that's where the rubber meets the road. [00:12:17] Speaker A: Oh, man, there is a lot. There is a lot there. There's a lot there. And we're going to keep unpacking because you. This book is about leadership, and it is not only applicable for people who hold a certain title in a certain organization. Every single one of these topics that you name, some of which we'll get into more than others in this conversation just because of time's sake. Every one of us is dealing with, I would say, maybe temptations in each one of these topics. It doesn't matter if we hold some sort of title that says we're an official leader of something. You know, I look at my kids and even. Even my youngest who's just finishing up elementary school, I'm like, oh, I promise you. People look to him like he's a leader on his playground, on his sports team, on, you know, all of these things, and he doesn't hold some sort of official title. So from the youngest of us to the oldest of us, I'm just like, this is. This is everybody. But what I want to name as we go into some of those things, because we can hear the triumphalism and the exceptionalism, all of these power, ego, performance, loyalty, you know, speed, perfectionism, all of these Things that you name, but the way that you go about speaking about these things, and I'll. I want to ask you to talk about it, about the premise in just a moment is crucifying these things. What I read, when I read these chapters, and particularly even the titles and the subtitles of these chapters, is that you're not calling us to a certain thing that I'm going to name, and that is this. I think especially right now, as polarizing as things feel in the US Church, it is very easy for us to say, well, I'm just going to not do that. I'm just going to be the opposite of that. That thing seems to be causing the problem. So I'll just be the un. That, you know, like the very merry unbirthday. And I'll just be the. I'll just be the unbirthday of that. Oh, well, power is a problem. So I'll just be powerless or I just won't use my power or ego is a problem. So I'll just be my version of humble or whatever that means, or performance. So I'll just focus on the opposite of it. And it's like, but I don't hear you calling us to the unbirthday, like, to the opposite of these things. I, and I don't hear you calling us in some sort of ambiguous centrist approach either. What I hear you calling us to is, and, and you name it very specifically in some of these chapters. But what I hear you calling us to is like, how did Jesus operate inside of each of these things? Jesus knew as an example that he had power. Jesus did have power. He knew he had power. Didn't walk around like, he didn't. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Yes, he did. [00:15:24] Speaker A: But then how, like, how did Jesus walk around with his power? How did Jesus walk around with people and understanding what loyalty looked like? How did Jesus walk around with this ego that is, you know, in all of us? And that is a very different question than just how can I not do it? Like the guys who are screwing up. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. I feel like that's not just an important question for all of us. That is an important question for people who have spent a lot of time trying to manage an impression that other people have of them. And I'm specifically thinking of women. I'm thinking of people of color. I'm thinking of brand new leaders, thinking of young people who are getting into new positions and they see themselves as a leader, but they're not quite there yet. Those categories of people are more likely to take the unbirthday approach than any other category, because they just want to be quote, right? So they read a book about power, and they say, well, I have to be completely powerless. Well, but what happens when you tell a person who struggles with imposter syndrome, release all of your power? That actually makes things worse? Or you have, you know, categories of people who read about. You need to, like, really know who you are. You need to walk in the room. You need to take up space. Well, a narcissist doesn't need to be told, take up space. So this is where I think we. If we read too fast, scripture too fast, we will miss what Jesus is saying to each of you has been given gifts of the spirit. You have to know what you've been given so that you can calibrate and use that for the glory of God. So when it comes to power, I have to know I have power. God has given me power. And if I'm leading in any capacity, I actually need power to lead. The question is, how do I give that power, surrender that power so fully to God that I walk away from this experience not feeling more empowered myself, but knowing that the people around me that have to serve with me feel that power as well. If I can focus on that, then my goal isn't to become the most powerful person in the world. My goal is to distribute the most power as I possibly can can. Because, oh, by the way, though, to whom much is given, much is required. If God has given me a position of power, it is my job to empower the people around me. And I have seen it for myself when I give myself the bathroom pep talk, which I usually do, and say, come on, girl, you can do this. You got this. You're sitting on top of the world. Which I usually do. And then I walk into that meeting and I make my one statement, and I feel like I'm on top of the world. And I leave that meeting, I still feel like something is missing. But if I give myself that pep talk and I walk in that meeting and I not only say my piece, but then I interject and say, one moment, because I don't think Jane has had a chance to speak. Is it all right if we make some room for Jane to speak now? I've taken on a new dimension of power because not only do I feel good, so to speak, but I have made room for someone else to operate in their power. And we get to walk out of that meeting and high five and say, praise the Lord. Maybe not praise the Lord. If you're not in a Christian context. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Right. But no, I think, I think this is very. I think this is very good because each one of these topics that you. That you address are so complex and, and they're just really complicated to live out. And it's not like you get a bullet point and you say, oh, it's just like three steps to utilizing your power appropriately. It's like, gosh, no, this is so. It's so. It's so complicated. It's so context, you know, it's relevant to your context. And it is also tough. Like, as you mentioned, like, depending upon where you sit, who you are, what is your. You know, my circles, we would say, what is your social location? These look very different depending on that. While we're on the topic of power, first of all, I invite you to say as much as you want to say about power. In addition to. I'm going to ask you specifically about the discussion of privilege that you. That you took in the power chapter. So, like, those are words that we have heard there, especially relevant when we're. When we're talking about things like intersectionality or things like that right now. But you differentiate between privilege and power. And so I'm curious if you'll talk about what is the differentiation and then why is that important to talk about privilege in the context of a discussion on power? [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yes. This chapter was the hardest one for me to write. I'm pretty certain I rewrote it at least three times, which is, you know, when you're. Whether you're a student or just writing devotionals or a preacher or whatever, when you have to delete things, it's just. [00:20:34] Speaker A: It's heartbreaking. [00:20:35] Speaker B: Yes. But I remember writing and rewriting because there are so many dynamics to power, and I was so tired, almost allergic to the bullet points that tell you, here's how you operate in power. That completely ignored my social location and the social base of power. So I talk about French and Raven's six social bases of power. It's pretty common. It's like, you know, you can have informational power if you're the person on the team that knows all the stuff. You can have expert power if you're the person that's done all the stuff. You can have legitimate power if you're the person with the title. You can have referential power if you're the oldest person on the team or the person they tend to defer to because, you know, out of respect or whatever, you're gonna have all of these points of power. And I Kept playing out scenarios in my mind, scenarios I've been in, scenarios my friends have been in, where, for example, they had the legitimate power, they held the senior title, but they didn't have the privilege, the social privilege of the moment. So they were the CEO, but they were a young woman. So now you've got. If she's a CEO and she's a young woman and her entire team is older men, not only are there different social bases of power at play, but then there's a privilege. Because now she's got to operate against what will be seen in the room as being too aggressive if she says, I'm going to use my position and I'm going to make the call. Or she's got to be deferential to people that are lower than her in order to get done what she needs to get done. And if she chooses to ignore privilege and only operates in her social base of power, then she could miss what else is at play. And that's just one example. I've seen it even in spaces where I've had some of my friends who are white men where they come onto a team and they're not at the top, they're just a player on the team. One guy in particular, he's really tall. He's like six, two. I mean, he's a former football player, first started out, entry level job. He gets into the room and it's all these. It's a pretty diverse room of men and women in different ages. But they kept deferring to him. Well, well, Bob, what do you think? Well, yeah, but you know, what does, what does Bob say? Because he had the look, he had a privilege. And if he didn't understand that privilege, if he didn't own that privilege, he would think, well, look at the luck. They see me as the next superstar. No, no, honey, they see you as a tall white man with a whole lot of privilege. And that's not a bad thing. The question is, how do I accept that, how do I own that and how do I use that for the glory of God? [00:23:14] Speaker A: There's a line. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. And I already said, this is full of admissions. There's a We swatch 30 rock all the time with Tina Fake. And there's a line. I can't think of the exact line right now, but it's where Alec Baldwin's character says something to Tina Fey's creature, says something like, lemon, I'm a. I'm a. What do you say? I'm a tall white man with hair. I can do anything. You know, it's like. [00:23:40] Speaker B: That's exactly right. [00:23:42] Speaker A: That's it. Because people just defer to you because you, you kind of look like the person everyone thinks should be in charge. And so it doesn't matter if you're the. Yeah. If you're the lowest on the rung. It's like, yeah, well, you're a tall white man with hair. So. Yeah, I actually had a guy say. [00:23:55] Speaker B: That to me at a conference, and I will never forget. It was the most interesting thing. So we're at this conference we're talking about. It was a conference where we're talking about scriptures with women in ministry. And so this, you know, white male pastor in his 60s is advocating for four women in ministry. We get off the stage and it was him and maybe three other women. It was two guys and three women. So we get off the stage and he says to me, nicole, I'm really grateful for what you shared and I'm glad that God made me who I am because I need to give you my platform more often. And I said, what does that mean? He says, almost exactly what you said, Nicole, I'm an older white man who's tall in a male driven society, in a male dominated field. As a pastor. He was like, I basically didn't have to work for this. People told me who I was before I even figured it out. He's like, you, you all. I listen to the women on the stage and you're smarter than me and you're gifted and you're more articulate and you have no platform. So it's like you might be right. He said, I'm delighted to loan you my platform because what if God made me a tall white guy, a middle aged white guy with power for moments just like this? And I almost had tears in my eyes because I was like, I wrestle with all my emotions, like, why does that have to be. I'm so glad that you know that and I'm so humbled that you would say, I want to lend this platform that I have been given out of no work of my own. I want to lend this to you because I trust you and I know you and I know I have something that you probably could never get. It was deep. [00:25:39] Speaker A: It is deep and it is crazy. I mean, it is just. It's wild. I remember not to just stay on this forever, but when I was. I was in my early 20s and I had my first, I call it my first big girl job, you know, like right out of college and I was, I was working at a law firm, you know, just like doing answering phones and doing front desk and other admin stuff and, and people treated me like garbage, you know, and it was not real fun. But working with public isn't always fun. I mean, I've waited tables and done retail and all sorts of stuff and, and I was complaining about it one day to my mother in law, who had a lot more wisdom than me at the time. She had a lot more years. And she said to me, you are a small young woman. And, and that was kind of. Her answer is like, people are going to treat you like that basically because they can, you know, I mean, without, without saying those exact words. It was kind of like, well, like, what do you expect? You know, you're a small young woman. And I was super offended by that at the time. I was like, I wouldn't change any of those things about myself, you know, and, and it wasn't her point that those things were wrong with me. It was her point that she had lived in this world decade than me also as a woman, and she just knew that that's just kind of the way it is. You know, if I were to put it in the language we're using today, I'm like, if a tall, middle aged white man with hair was working that desk, would he have received the same treatment as me? [00:27:16] Speaker B: These. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Some of the people are just going to kind of be jerky and they're just going to do whatever. But for the most part, my guess is probably not, you know, because I looked like someone that they maybe thought that they could just treat that way. And it is those rush of different emotions because it just kind of sucks when you realize it just kind of is the way it is. Yeah, the privilege isn't the same. [00:27:40] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And you know, our listeners who may be like, well, that's depressing. I do think the gospel gives us a view of hope that comes with this acknowledgment. So you go back to those moments where you get that crushing understanding, oh my gosh, that's really how other people see me. Oh my goodness. That's really my quote unquote lot in life. And then you start to realize God has intended for every single person to have an impact and a role and a purpose in the kingdom of God. So the question isn't what do I do since I'm not a tall white man with hair. The question is, what do I do since I'm me, since I am who God has made me to be. How do I maximize this? And I have seen the smaller, younger women who understand power and understand privilege and understand these dynamics, quote, unquote, work the room like nobody else can. Because you can use those attributes to your advantage for the glory of God and for the good of the people that you serve. It does require more. And this is the theme again of surrender and sacrifice, because you can manipulate by using that to work people for what you need. Or if you go about this in a surrendered way, you have a chance. God has a chance to show through you something that might break the paradigm. How many times have I had people say to me, oh my goodness, there's so much that comes from such a little package. That's you naming your bias, naming your prejudice, naming your issues. And I'm so sorry that you did not expect God to show up through me like he did. But that's just how God works. I relish those moments. I'm like, bring on the underestimations. Bring on the, she doesn't know what she's doing. And I'm gonna, you know, push her by. That's fine. Because I am a woman completely surrendered to the power of God. And in the words of Paul, we have this treasure in broken vessels so that the all surpassing power is of God and not of us. And that's the joy that we get to present our frames, our broken frames to God and say, lord, show me some all surpassing power here. So that people stand back and be like, ooh, who is that? I did not expect that. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Oh, I love it. I should just turn my mic off and let you preach. I might. Thank you so much for that. I. Oh, man, I want to. Oh, goodness. There's like, so. There's like so many of these topics that I want to touch. Maybe we shift to performance because I'm like, this again is one of those things where we go, well, we can't just walk into all of these spaces. I mean, we're even if Christians. I'm thinking you're Christian, you're called to a certain vocation, whatever it is, you're not going to walk into the space where you're working, where you're serving, where you're doing ministry, whatever it is, and be like, yeah, I don't really care what happens here. [00:30:57] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:30:58] Speaker A: You know, like, yeah, whatever. I don't really care what happens. And then at the same time, like, we know the traps that we can fall into when performance, whatever the metrics are, are the only goal. And that's what we are striving for. So this was one of those places where I'm like, this is not the unbirthday chapter. We don't just walk in and be like, yeah, whatever. I mean, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And that could be anything. You're, you're, you're a doctor. You're not like, yeah, I don't really care if my patients live or die. That's fine. Yeah, it's just another day of work, you know, I mean, this is. No, this is not, this is not what we're doing. So I will say this presence based leadership felt, I, I resonated when I read it. It is not what I would have guessed. If someone said we're looking at performance, we're going to look at a different model. What would you pair with performance? I probably would not. I don't know what I would have chosen, but it probably wouldn't have been necessarily this presence based leadership. But again, when you look at this and how did Jesus operate? It makes a lot of sense. So. Yeah, so tell us about that part. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I don't think I would have paired presence with performance, mostly because. Thank you for opening the door to true confessions. I only wrote about things I've struggled with and things that I've seen before, things that I've experienced and things that I know are prevalent with friends and leaders and colleagues. So I have not writing and I have not written from a place of having overcome. I'm not like I've mastered this now learn from me. I'm writing as I'm working through these things. And performance is one of the things I have to work through. I am a high performer on every personality test ever. I'm an enneagram3. I'm a checklist person. I get my flash of endorphins when I scratch things off the list. I'm, you know, like, I'm. What is it on my, my strengths, Finders, achievers, like one of my top ones. So performance is a real thing for me. But I have learned and I credit younger generations, Gen Z and Gen Alpha for this. I have learned that at the end of the day, younger generations care less about what you do. They care more about who you are. So in a generational dinner party, older generations are likely to say, now, what do you do? What do you do for a living? Because they think what you do for a living will hint at who you are. Younger generations are more prone to Ask you what your favorite foods are, what do you do for fun? Where do you live? They want to know who you are. And when I look at scripture, Jesus operated from that who ness more than the whatness, so to speak. He was able to bring healing and raise Lazarus from the dead and raise the widow of Nain's son because he was the resurrection and life. It was because of who he was that he did what he did. And for me, a high achieving, high performer, my constant wrestle is, Lord, root me back to remember how to be a human being and not just a human doing for you. Because it is easier for my vantage point. It's easier for me to tone down my doing so that I can focus on who I am for other people. They'll have to do the opposite. Lord, help me to, to operate, to do more as a reflection of who I am. So again, I've heard somebody told me, you know, I like your book, but it's kind of frustrating because I feel like you're talking out of both sides. I was like, yes, yes, I am. Because if there's one message that you get from this, especially in performance, there is no one silver bullet. God has called us to do work, to work with excellence. And he's called us not to strive. He's called us to be perfect as he is perfect. And he's called us to remember that his grace is sufficient. So this is the I've learned how to abound and how to check off everything on my list and go to sleep thinking, great, you did everything you needed to do. And I've learned how to go to sleep when nothing was done. And I stared at my computer and felt worthless. But God still said, you are enough. This is the yes. That our performance is based on who we are. And when we can flow from that, then we can start to measure what we do. [00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really. That's. That's really good. I'm also a checklist person. I'm an enneagram one. But I'm a. But I'm a checklist person. It makes me feel so happy. [00:35:40] Speaker B: I love. [00:35:41] Speaker A: I love to cross it off. Oh my goodness. I. Oh, I just. I just can't even. It just. It's just one of those things that just. It just thrills me more than it probably should. But it is hard. I heard, gosh, mom. That I was in a mom's group with years ago when my oldest were little and she named herself as being a task oriented person. And so she said it was very hard for her to sometimes just be present with her little kids, you know, toddlers at the time, because she was just. She kind of wanted to get things done. And I have. I can relate to that as well. Like this even. Even if it's not, like, performance for something else, it's just like, I just want to check those things off the list. I just want to get them done. And if I'm concentrating on that, which I often am, and it is hard for me, really, to just be present with my people, even in my house, you know, to be present with them is difficult. On this performance, I felt like I don't think they were next to each other in the book, but it just took me straight to the scale. Chapter. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:51] Speaker A: Here's. Okay, there's. There's lots. There's lots of things. There's so many things here. Number one, I hate White Castle. People who read the book will just see it. I am originally from Oklahoma. We've been in Texas for 15 years. But I lived in northern Indiana for a couple of years. My dad to go to grad school at Purdue. And I was like. We were like, what is this? We had no idea. We're like, what is this? Yeah. So anyway, so we didn't like it. Scale didn't work for us there. But more down to earth. I've been in ministry context for a very long time, and I very specifically remember several years back, I was sitting at the mechanic shop, like, you know, across from our neighborhood. I don't know, probably getting the oil changed or something like that. And I was sitting on a bench, and there was a guy who came in who was pretty obviously a regular to this shop, and he had his, you know, minivan or whatever. And the. The mechanic was asking him, just small talk, how are things going? Whatever. But it was pretty obvious that they had had these conversations before. Anyway, they were right there. I wasn't exactly eavesdropping, but kind of anyway. And the guy was a pastor. Turns out the customer was a pastor. And so when he's asking, oh, like, how are things down at the church? You know, whatever. And he says, oh, you know, thing. Things are good. And his. And his response, like, rolls right off the toe. Oh, things are good. Growing in numbers. Growing in what? You know, and, like, he just. It was like, he just said. It was. It was the oddest thing to me to overhear this, just as someone who is, you know, just sitting. And I took a mental note of it. Obviously, it hasn't left me. And then the next time I met with My pastoral mentor, I shared it with him, and he was kind of like, yeah, this is real common. And it wasn't like, he was not like, yes, this is what we're supposed to be doing. He was kind of like, I'm glad that struck you. And, you know, talk to me about that. And also, yeah, this is just. This is just pretty common. But as someone who wasn't officially in any sort of vocational ministry at the time, it kind of pained me, like, as a pew sitter, you know, like, it kind of pained me so. I don't know. I mean, again, it's one of those things where you walk in just like we're talking about the performance. You don't want to walk in and be like, yeah, I don't really care what happens at church. I mean, whatever. People show up, they show up. They don't. They don't. They get ministered to. They don't. Whatever. Who cares who, you know, well, if we have to shut the doors in a year or whatever, I mean, yes, we don't want to be apathetic. [00:39:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:34] Speaker A: And then at the same time, like, focusing like White Castle or McDonald's or the, you know, Model T like you mentioned in the book, this also feels problematic, especially for ministry places. But any. Any places where we would lead. Yeah, I don't know. Can you, like, help. Help me. What. What is here? [00:40:01] Speaker B: This is. You're tapping into something that is so, so important. And again, it. We will always feel this angst when we take principles from the world and just slap them without any context, onto the Bible, onto ministry, onto the church. And I have seen it, and I understand on the one hand, you have, in some contexts, a lack of true apostolic gifts, meaning there just aren't enough church planters. There aren't enough denominations and spaces where church planters can be encouraged and to go out. There aren't enough churches who are doing really great things that are raising up leaders to say, don't just go to a place and let me stream to you, but go and serve and lead and we'll fund you and just go, just get out of here. Let's spread the gospel. So there's a lot. There's not as much of that happening. And then on the other hand, you have a lot of research and studies showing us that the largest churches are only getting larger and the smallest churches are only getting smaller. And that in and of itself isn't bad. But we do have to look at the motive. And that's what I'm trying to say in the scale chapter, again, it's not everybody should grow and everybody shouldn't grow, but there is. You have to clearly understand your motive, and you have to clearly understand the calling of God. If Jesus were based, if he were judged based on the size of his congregation, he would fail. He had 12 of them, one of them committed suicide. All 12 abandoned him at some point. And the ones that came back were coming back on a string. They were not very promising at all. If you judge the work of the Holy Spirit post ascension, post Christ's ascension, then you see an explosion of the church. So what would you do? Jesus is not as good as the Holy Spirit through his disciples. So it really is about motive. The thing that pains me the most is when I see there are churches that have capacity to build and develop leaders and send them out, but their ego and their fears and everything else says, well, I need all my leaders to stay here. I can't send them out to start another church. And I can't send them out because then maybe their congregation would grow faster than mine. I can't send them out because maybe we can't afford to send them out. I can't send them out because maybe they're different. That's a woman, and I can't send a woman out to pastor a church. So that pains me. And this constant drive toward numbers. We're the best, we're the biggest, we're the fastest. What does that even matter? What does that even matter? And what does that matter if you lose the core of the gospel? Because sometimes the gospel message to grow is a little different than the come and die gospel message. Because, I mean, last time I checked, when Jesus said, eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, like 5,000 people left him. No. So the motive of staying true to the scriptures, if you are so clear and true to the scriptures and God is exploding your ministry, bless you and stay true to your motive. And if you are staying true to the scriptures and God is dwindling your congregation, in the words of Pete Scazzero, some things must have a happy ending. So, I mean, it's a hard thing. And I hate that we live in a society that would demonize churches that say we have been faithful to the very end and our congregation is shifting and would also celebrate the congregations that are hemorrhaging at the seams and there may not even be a gospel being preached there. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:38] Speaker B: So. [00:43:40] Speaker A: No, it's not. I, I often think of a. There's a pastor who has. Has been on the podcast and he used to say, I think he might have said it in our conversation, but he also said it on social media quite a bit where he would just say I'm the pastor of a regular sized church. And I don't remember maybe 100, 150 people or something like that. And, and it was just, he just really named that of like the mega church is not the regular sized church. That's it, the regular site. You know, he'd say, I'm a pastor of a regular sized church. I mean I live in Houston. We have a lot of giant. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Giant. Almost all Texas has massive churches. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Yes, of course. [00:44:21] Speaker B: And I'm a member of a megachurch and I served on a staff of megachurch. Things about megachurches that I'm just like, they got the secret sauce. And still for the hundred member church and for the 10,000 member church, 100,000 member church. Motive. Why are we doing this and what's the goal? [00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to your point about some things must have a happy ending. One of my professors in my M. Div. Really, he. I mean this is kind of a footnote, excuse me, but he used to say that churches have lifespans. He believed that churches had lifespans just like everything else. And so one of the things that he advocated for is he used to use it in terms of hospice care. He said, I wish there were pastors who were essentially hospice pastors for churches, churches that their time has come. It's time to close the door, you know, go out well because you know, the pastor's inside of it. Just like a, you know, a family member to it to a dying, you know, loved one can't really serve the purpose of a hospice team. But you know, he really was advocating like there are just, it's, it's a time, it's a time frame. You know, there's time. Not everything goes on forever. That doesn't mean there's been a failure. You know, that means that there was a lifespan and that's okay. And, and you know, we see that happening a lot, especially post Covid, you know, for various reasons, all sorts of reasons. But yeah, I mean for them, for those congregations, scale isn't even on the table. They're not even having those conversations. It's what do we do now? How can we serve well now? And those faithful conversations are important very too. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:46:13] Speaker A: So just, just a footnote. Okay. I don't really want this to be our last topic because for me it feels depressing. So I do not want to burden you with trying to make it not feel depressing. But I will say we'll go here, and then I'll ask you, like, a final. Really, like a final question, and you can wrap us up in a really encouraging, awesome way. But, gosh, your chapter on loyalty. Oh, Nicole. I was like, okay, I hate this. Like, I think. Think mostly because in my mind. And I will say, there is part of me to go back to this scale if there's like this. Oh, this. This congregation has grown from, you know, 10 people in a living room to, you know, 5,000 people in three months. Obviously, I'm exaggerating. You know, like, I automatically become skeptical of that. I will just confess that that is something that I'm like. And also, like. Like. And also, like, why are we advertising that? Like, to me, I'm just like. I start asking questions. Doesn't mean there's not great things going on. But I've had. I've had some baggage and I've had some wounding from, you know, places, you know, that were kind of like that. What the commonality often was that I saw, and I think we. We see that in some of the stories that come out, is that sometimes those things rise and fall, and they get. Maybe they get real big, or they get real, you know, with numbers, or they get real big with influence, you know, or whatever it is. And then sometimes they fall. And a lot of times, I think the fall has to do with this loyalty factor where leaders come in and maybe they say, oh, we've assembled a board or we've assembled a team, or we have an elder, whatever. And a lot of times it's filled with, yes. People who aren't up for challenging. Maybe what's happening. Maybe they're loyal to the plan. Maybe they're loyal to the person. Maybe they're loyal, you know, and that kind of colors what might actually be happening. And so that one felt really tough for me because I just think partially because I'm like, gosh, we're all prone to it, right? I mean, like, nobody really probably wants to hear, oh, yeah, like, I really screwed that up, or this, or maybe it'll be better if we went in a direction that's actually the exact opposite of what I thought we should do. You know, that doesn't feel great, whether you're the CEO or whether you're a mom. You know, like, that doesn't always feel good, but it's necessary. Yes, I think so, anyway. I'm just kind of. I'm just kind of rambling, but I think because this one it felt really hard for me to read this, this chapter on loyalty. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And that chapter was written in my mind. I had a dual audience. I was speaking to the leader who is prone to choose loyal people as their inner circle. And I was speaking to the member of the inner circle that is struggling with what they've seen, experienced and validated. So on the leader side, it is a natural thing for us to want people around us who help us get farther. You know, that we want at least the semblance of agreement and support because when we get out there, we don't want to be embarrassed by somebody who's betrayed us and we want to know that people will be with us. So we naturally select our team members, our inner circle as leaders to be people who are likely to affirm. But the question is, do we demand their loyalty at the cost of their loyalty to God? Because it is so easy for me to say, john, I need you to have my back. And then John understands because I stood up for him in the past, because I promoted him. Because there's always in, in the loyalty section, there's always, there's always a give and take. People in the inner circle are there because they've received something, they've benefited by the leader in some critical way. And the leader selects loyal people that they, that he or she knows have benefited in some way because they have a tie that's the toxic tie. In the worst examples, you take a Mark Driscoll, for example. This is in the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. The inner circle were people who said, he was there when my child died. He was there when I was going through the divorce. He was there when I had no place to live and he gave me a space and he gave me a voice and he gave me, gave me, gave me. And so then they show up and they know that the man is going crazy. But they say, well, you know, he did so much for me, I can't afford to sell him out. I can't afford to speak poorly of him. Touch not mine. Anointed, they start to theologize their loyalty. This is God's anointed one. I dare not go against him on, on the other end of, of deep toxicity. Then you've got the, the capacity for the leader to blackmail. Oh, you're going to go out here and you're going to agree with what I say. And if anything, if anything is said that that is otherwise I will let everybody know about your problems. I don't forget I was there for you when you went through that divorce and I remembered how you were drunken in your, in your drunken state and you know, I cleaned up your stuff. So if you expose me, I can expose you. This is the toxicity that we have to be so careful of. So I would say to leaders, it is okay to choose people who are like minded, but you have to say out loud with full intention, never let your loyalty to me be at the expense of your loyalty to God. Do not let me be the emperor with no clothes on and trust and believe that this is a space where we can disagree. And if you present a well meaning argument against what I am thinking we need to do, I will hear you and I will not punish you for disagreeing and I will not blacklist you for having another view. And then for those who are in that inner circle of loyalty, I would say to them, just be aware of your, of your God, be very clear of the God that you worship and be okay. Be willing to walk away from a leader and risk their blackmail, their rejection if you have the approval of God. I have been there. I've been in the, you know, space where you leave and have been told that you'll never get anything better than this. You're going to get out there and flounder. You're going to leave this green pastures and you're going to run into the desert. I've been there. I've been that leader that has had that insecurity. Oh my gosh, they disagreed with me privately. They're going to go out there and expose me. But God is, is able to provide when we make him our only Lord. That is, that's the hardest part of loyalty. [00:53:15] Speaker A: Oh, that is. Thank you. Because that is a really tough one. I think it also feels, gosh, it feels tough in church circles. [00:53:29] Speaker B: It's so much harder in church circles, isn't it? It feels so much harder. [00:53:36] Speaker A: It feels so tough in church circles. You know, I mean, I've seen it where people, you know, saw something even if they weren't inner circle, you know, they saw something happening and let it go on for far too long because, well, I don't want to gossip. [00:53:50] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. Well, I wasn't sure. I wasn't, you know, there weren't that many people who saw it and there's so much on the line and, or what we do in church circles is we, we, we think that the rewards are worth the cost. Friends who supported, who were serving on staff with Ravi Zacharias, who always said, but hundreds of people came to Jesus. I know. I just saw him go into that room with that young girl who was, quote, unquote, his masseuse. And I know that wasn't really a massage going on there, but hundreds of people were saved. So we in ministry, it's so much harder because then we start to justify, well, well, God wouldn't bless the mess, would he? Well, you know, it has to be good if all these people's lives are being changed and then we can't sleep at night because we know what we saw. And we were the ones who said nothing. I. When we stand before the Lord, let it be said, God, I never led your people to worship me. And I never worshiped or covered for someone. Even after I was convicted. I did it for a while. Lord, I'm so sorry. But once you convicted me, I did what I could to do what I've believed God was calling me to do. And it is so hard and it's costly. But isn't. Isn't faith costly? Isn't faith in Jesus costly? That goes back to the first part of our conversation. [00:55:14] Speaker A: It does. I was just thinking that. Yes. [00:55:16] Speaker B: About the cost of the cross. It is worth it. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Yes. It is costly. It is not comfortable. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Nope. [00:55:24] Speaker A: It is not comfortable. [00:55:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:28] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness, Nicole, this is so. This is so good. I am. I am so grateful for this, for this book. I am so grateful for you talking out of both sides. For you not just unbirthing this. Because it really. All of these topics are so complex and operating a different way than what we have seen. What we've seen sometimes be toxic. What we've seen sometimes just not work. It is costly. It is uncomfortable even to experiment with some of those things. And so I'm grateful that you are, that you're guiding us and calling us to those things. What I want to ask you right now, sometimes I end like this. So I'll give you a. Choose your own adventure, one or the other. So one is. What's the question? I didn't ask. Is there something in you that you're like, oh, man, if she would just go there, I would have. I would take us to this place. Or maybe it is. You have. Now, I respect what you say. You're not coming at this like, okay, I've conquered all of these things. Now follow me. This is not, as we talked earlier, this is not a triumphalistic message here, but you have led in a lot of spaces. You're currently leader in spaces, in Christian spaces in particular. And so the other part of the choose your own Adventure is what would you say to people who, maybe they're, maybe they're brand new in their position, or maybe they've gotten some sort of wake up call and they're like, okay, we've got to adjust. I've got to evolve in the way that I'm doing this. What encouragement or challenge would you give folks who are finding themselves in that position? [00:57:32] Speaker B: Maybe. Maybe this is an answer to both questions, though. What question you didn't ask and what to say to younger leaders or those who want to pivot. I think the hardest but most rewarding part of this whole process is rewiring our brains to eternity. So why do this? What is the point of taking up my cross? What is the point of risking the ire of my boss because I refuse to be loyal? What's the point of focusing on presence of leading like I'm actually loved instead of, you know, being egotistical, like, what is the point of it all? And for me, this is where the scriptures ought to rewire us. New Testament in particular, writers were writing with a sense that eternity was tomorrow. Jesus is coming back any day now, now. So Paul could say, who cares whether you get married or not? If you're married, stay married. If you're not married, like, stop worrying about it. He could say that because he, he had this fire behind him. Hurry up. Jesus is coming back soon. And I think part of what I'm trying to do in the book is to remember where your treasures are. Remember what this is about. Do not forsake your first love. Remember you are a Christian leader, a Christian influence, influencer, a believer in Jesus Christ. Not so you can make more money. Not so that you can go viral. Not so that you can be the baddest, best pastor in the biggest, you know, fastest growing church in the whole world. Though all of those things may be part of your journey or not. But you're doing this because Christ is coming again. And one day you want to know that you have done what God has called you to do. And for me, that's why I wrote the book. [00:59:22] Speaker A: Book. [00:59:22] Speaker B: I did not write this book thinking, oh, it's going to be the bestseller and I need a bestseller. I didn't write it because, you know, some people publish books because they feel like that's the next thing on my, on my rung to get to the next step. I wrote it because I needed to be reminded that the principles and ways of this world will only lead me to worldly things. And deep down, I am never satisfied by the things of this world. I do not want cotton candles success that tastes really sweet when you looks really pretty and then you put in your mouth, you're like, that's it. Like, that's it. Now. Now I need something else. I want eternal success in quotes. I want to be with God. I want to experience his presence. I want to be and to experience part of his glory. I want to dwell in the glory and the goodness of God. And that's why we do this. Because that reward is better than anything we could get on this earth. [01:00:22] Speaker A: Amen. Thank you so much again. The book is called Nailing it why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender. And I'll put the link where people can grab a copy of it. There were like so many things we didn't even touch in this conversation. So many topics. Yeah. So anyway, I really encourage everybody to grab that and thank you, Nicole, so much for being with me today. This conversation was just amazing. [01:00:51] Speaker B: Alexis, so much fun. This was great. [01:00:55] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected] SA.