Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Well, I am so excited to have on the podcast today. Scott Erickson all the way I say all the way from Austin, Texas, just down the road. Hey Scott.
Speaker 2 00:00:51 Hi. I know we're, we're just a long football pass away.
Speaker 1 00:00:55 That's right. We're neighbors practically. All of them. We did chat a little bit before how being in Texas, you know, Texans say Texas, it's a whole other country, but we did say, I mean, living you've lived in Houston, living in Houston, living in Austin are just like totally different things.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 Yeah. Same amount of CAISO but very different. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:01:16 I would, I would argue same amount of case, so very different cases.
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Well that's yeah. I can see some differences for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:01:23 Yeah. Yeah. So tell us what you do and Austin professionally. And tell us a little bit about your family too. Before we get started.
Speaker 2 00:01:30 Well, I'm a professional CAISO consumer and then in my spare time, I'm an artist which is a descriptor that has lots of different meetings. So I'm a, I'm a visual artist, which means I'm a painter illustrator and I translate and contemplate and communicate about the world through that. Uh, I'm an author coauthor of a couple of prayer books and author of this book and another book coming out next year. Um, and try to make experiences through that. And then I am a performance artist and I do these like one man shows, multimedia sensory interactive experiences with audiences nationwide. And that together is what I say is I'm an artist.
Speaker 1 00:02:11 Oh, I love it so much. And you're, so the book that we're talking about today, um, has some striking artwork in it. It's, it's just beautiful, honest, advent, and it's got, uh, an illustration on the front of a pregnant woman. And so I definitely do not want to forget your introduction of your family because you, you dive into that in the book for sure. So go ahead and tell us a little bit about your family.
Speaker 2 00:02:37 Yeah. And, um, I'm been married to my wife, Holly, for 15 years. We have three kids, a nine year old boy, eight year old girl and a two year old boy. So back to toddler and, and diapers and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 00:02:50 You are a brave person,
Speaker 2 00:02:53 Forties. We had him when I was 41 40 and I was almost three and a half. Yeah. I know he Jones. He will graduate college or high school when I'm 58. So I'm like, Oh my goodness. Yeah. It'll keep us interesting. You know, we'll know all the latest rappers we don't already have fifties.
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Oh no, that's right. I mean, we have, so we have four, um, our, our twin, we have twin girls who are 10 and then we have an eight year old boy and then we have a six year old boy. So I figured we were probably close to the same age. My husband is, he just had a birthday, maybe he's 42 or something like that. So we're, so we're close. We're in the same scope, but I'm telling you when our youngest could wipe his own bottom. Yes. The world changed for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:43 Oh, I just in my heart of hearts whenever I'm so frustrated, I just go, if you can make it like two more years, a year and a half when he's four, it'll just be like a different thing.
Speaker 1 00:03:54 It will be a different yeah, totally different world. And now I took my oldest, he's going to like this little pod or my youngest to do, he's doing this little pod for his virtual school because helped me with first for Juul first grade.
Speaker 2 00:04:09 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:04:09 Beyond my pay grade at this point. Um, but you know, he's like kicking buckle himself. Right. And I feel like that, that, again, that's like another line man than another level. Right. When, when they can buckle themselves too. So that's great. It comes out in the book. So, um, the book, the name of the book that we're talking about today, that will kind of, you know, be, uh, the centrality of our conversation probably is called honest advent awakening to the wonder of God with us then here and now. So let's just start if you can and give us like a generic recap of what advent is, because I didn't grow up celebrating advent and neither did my husband. And so I know like some, some church community, some church cultures and traditions do and some don't. And so give us just a little recap of what that is.
Speaker 2 00:05:03 Yeah. Advent is a season advent in Latin just means coming. So it is a liturgical season, just meaning it's giving a framework to an otherwise like void of going, Hey, for these five weeks, these are sorry, four Sundays leading up to Christmas. Let's spend time thinking about the coming King, the coming Messiah, just like it was announced to Mary then going through the pregnancy and, and all of that stuff. So it's, so it's a way to just kind of awaken your soul of going think about hope coming in your midst. What is it like to long for that? And it's allowing those longings that we have for restoration or fulfillment to come to the surface and really like deal with those prayerfully and in spiritually. And so, um, yeah, I grew up Protestant too. We just talked about Christmas and Easter and then you find out, Oh, there's like advents until Christmas and then there's lent up till Easter there's and then there's this whole thing called the ordinary time, which just is amazing. You know? So there's all of these, uh, traditions and timelines and church calendars that have been practiced by women and men throughout history. And, um, one of the things I think that's great about participating in it is that it lets us know that we're not so individualistic that we're actually part of this great cloud of witnesses or this great communion of saints. That's all doing this thing together. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:06:28 No, I love that. Actually. I'm reading another book right now for, um, for the show, but I wanted to read it anyway. And the author talks about, um, even reading of scripture, you know, even just like that, um, we've turned it into this kind of individually individualistic thing, but then recognizing that this really is a community thing. And when we read it aloud and we participate together. And so when you're talking about that, especially now, when, you know, some people are back in, in service and buildings, but some people are online and it just helps to have something like that on the calendar to know that we're doing, you know, all of this as it as a larger church community and a larger church body. And so thank you for that because that, I didn't want that to be like a hindrance to anybody as we got into this talking about the advent.
Speaker 1 00:07:12 But when you talk about that part of, of, of the coming, one of the things that I just, I kind of wrote in all caps, when I was making notes for our talk today, it was feel the weight that w a I T right. To feel the weight. And, um, and of course I like think about versus has like a pregnant woman on the front. We're talking about Mary, we're talking about Jesus and the birth. And I know you've got three kids and your wife has told her birthing stories and she has heard some birthing stories in her day. I know that's true.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 Oh, my wife was a doula for a while, too. Yeah. The baby's out. She's done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:56 That's kind of the question. Right. Is, were they early where they late? When did they come? You know, how far along were you when the baby was born? You know, when, when we're having these conversations and so feel the weight. I thought, okay. I had, I had my twins came early and it shocked me. There wasn't enough anticipation there because they were supposed to not be that early. But my son, my, my first son was my third baby. He never wanted, we had a lot of experience feeling the weight because he never wanted to be born. He just thought he was going to hang out. So I'm just like, I don't know. I just feel like if you can like talk about even that, how did you try to capture, feeling the weight and let me back up kind of back up a minute, but like, where did this even come from?
Speaker 2 00:08:49 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can, because I'm a pro I can tie those both in let's do it. Let's start where it came from. Um, it was four years ago and it was right after the last election, which whoever said you voted for. I think we could all agree, felt really divisive and long and fatiguing. Um, and that year also, we re we're right in the midst of the Syrian civil war. And we were seeing these horribly devastating images of cities that demolished and refugees and death, right. Zika, Flint, water, or crisis there, where there was multiple gun shooting, school shootings that year. Um, and then like after the election, you know, it's not even Thanksgiving yet, but you just go into stores and it's just like the holiday decorations, the, just the Christmas season, just like dusts, like a snowfall on everything in society. And I remember just like being at some store and going, none of this feels relevant at all.
Speaker 2 00:09:53 It feels so meaningless compared to the chaotic and troubling world I live in and I love Christmas. Like, I'm a Christmas fan. I am one of those limos that sets like saves an all Christmas music all day long channel on my radio. I like put it on the loop off the playlists. I, I put lights on them house. I keep my lights up until February. You know, like I I'm that weird neighbor, that guy, that guy, I love a tree. Like all of the things I'm into the I'm into celebration, but I just found it so shallow. Um, and I'm not even like really poking it against like we, well it's cause we took Christ out of Christmas and stuff. Even the like naitivity seems, seemed sanitize and like non-relevant. And, um, and I was like, sure. And then that was shocking. Cause I was like, isn't this supposed to be like the good news and great tidings of joy.
Speaker 2 00:10:56 And yet it feels like not powerful in the presence of all of this chaos. And um, so it sparked in me this like, well, what, where could I find this? And at the time my wife was pregnant with our third and it's so cliche. I feel like just saying, it feels like cliche. It's like, well, churches will have a pregnant lady come up and be like, what's it like in there? What does it feel like? You know, and I get all that, but I, and I say this in the book, I'm not a woman, but I live with one and I've witnessed three pregnancies in three births. And in that time I noticed like very aware of the physical aches and pains that my wife is going through. The, the fluids talk about when she became a doula, I never realized I could hear the word.
Speaker 2 00:11:38 Mucus plugs so many times in my life, you know? And, um, and just in the kind of like the plans and you don't know how it's going to happen and you make a plan, but you're like, when is it going to come all of this? And it, and it was kind of female biology and that real like attention to the actual process of how incarnation happens, how something that's unseen come become seen. Um, it, it it's, it felt like it was really, I guess it felt really honest. Like it was like actually coming in the world is this scary, risky, hidden, mysterious process. And, and you've been at your birth, hopefully, maybe you're a drug guy. I don't know. But like people who haven't been to births also like people who aren't parents, and I know that can be hard cause some people want to be parents, but as like your theology changes, when you become a parent, like all the things you think about grace or forgiveness and sin and all that, it, when you look at relationships and children through the lens of love, it changes how you understand God and everything.
Speaker 2 00:12:49 And I have burst into tears at each one of the births I've been at. There's some, there's some I can describe medically and technically what's happening, but you can't describe what presence looks like. Like what presence feels like when it comes into the room, like when another person who wasn't there comes into the room, you're like, here it is. And it's like the manifestation of all of this longing and anticipation and plans and thinking and desires. And there it is. And it's a wonder, so I went, I, I got up, it's like, unless I'm less interested in the few logical conclusions of what incarnation means. And I was just like, what does it mean for a baby to come in the room? What does that mean for the mom who carries it? What does that mean for her body? And so I humbly started trying to draw and illustrate what I was seeing my wife dealing with and you know, her boobs that are two different sizes, you know?
Speaker 2 00:13:55 And it's like real different, you know, typical things, not trying to objectify the few malformed, cause there's too much of that, but just go, like I'm observing, I'm a witness to this. And I just started posting that stuff on Instagram and my own kind of musings. And I had tremendous feedback mostly from women. And what was really interesting to me admittingly as a man was that women were like, thank you for depicting something that's real. And, and what hit me in that is like, yeah, for one, most of the imagery we have for Christmas has been created by men. So, and, and I understand that I talk about this in the book where I was like, nobody wants to see the ugly alien looking baby that comes out. You know, they'd rather see like baby Jesus who looks like three months old has, is cleaned off and is sitting up right.
Speaker 2 00:14:47 Can hold his neck up, you know? Um, but I think there is a bit more to that, which is, um, and I, and I talk about this in the book, which is, uh, you know, the female body has been, um, kind of has been pushed aside by male oriented hierarchy in religious institutions. And it has been deemed, you know, a monthly biological period has been deemed unclean and you must go outside the camp. Uh, uh, a female like has been diminished as like, we're, we don't know if you have the ability to teach a female body has been like, Hey, if I get in the elevator with you or ride in a car with you, I'm going to want to have sex with you. So I can't do that. You know, it has put all of this, this kind of, it has made it scandalous or, um, S you know, dirty or all of this.
Speaker 2 00:15:45 And, and it really was humbling to go to, to, um, how do I want to say this? Like, not that I was like, I don't know I'm going to change all that. No, but I was like, I can be, uh, a husband, a male, a lover, a supporter, and go, I think that has actually been very wrong. And I would like to pay honor to the fact that, um, in this story, God's sacred plans came through female biology and by, uh, diminishing that we have missed out on the sacredness of that. And so, um, and then it's not just all about like nipples and Lydia, you know what I'm saying? It's like, or like uteruses and stuff. It's like also, like, who are the other people who partook in this, who are the, who are the shepherds, who are the magic? Who is all the Joseph?
Speaker 2 00:16:37 Like, we never talked about Joseph, you know, and like, what was it like for Jesus to have a dad? And it's kind of these musings on all of these things happening. Um, and then I did that over a few years and gained enough that I went to a publisher and I said, look, here's a book. And they said, yes. So that was kind of my, my, my honest intentionality was like to try to, to bring, wonder back into something. I loved that. I felt like mass consumer consumerism and marketing had diminished and kind of watered down. And it took a lot of joy out of, and, um, that's what I wanted to find. So that's where it came from. I been talking awhile. So I kind of maybe forgot the second question, provided that question at a time, if you want to respond to anything. I said,
Speaker 1 00:17:22 No, I want to respond to everything you said, because I'm just like, it was, it was so good. Um, but I would, so I would say, um, praise God, I'm glad to publish this said yes, because it's so good. I, I, um, I told you before we came on that I'm like, I already was trying to figure out like how in the world, can I get my hands on a bulk order of these? Because I've started making a list of friends that I want to give this to, because it was powerful. Um, part of the reason it was so powerful for me was as a woman, like I'm making a list of girlfriends, honestly, that, that those are just two is, is coming to mind in the introduction. When you start talking about the female biology was I, I cried. I mean, like I teared up at this and, and I hollered at my husband and I said, this is, you've got to hear this. Um, because of all of the things that you said. And, um, and as a woman who I think culturally, my church culture, um, has looked very, very masculine. Um, and, and there was, it was kind of like, I know this sounds like a weird statement maybe, but I would say as a woman reading this book, and particularly as a mom, and particularly as someone who has been pregnant, um, I actually felt very seen, um, in the pages of this book.
Speaker 2 00:18:52 Wow. That's a great compliment. Thank you. I mean, I'm humbled by that,
Speaker 1 00:18:56 So thanks. But thank you for writing it because I did. I just thought, wow, this is, you know, I, I just, I just felt, I just felt very seen through it. Um, you, I wanna, I want to comment on a couple of the things that you said, first of all, this incarnation, this idea of something, something else who was in unseen becoming seen, and, and this idea of being a parent and how that changes us, it changes our faith. And so I, I wrestled with personally and in, um, I think there are particular church traditions who I think the intention is good, but who seek to make the narrative so seamless, because we know from Genesis one, that Jesus was there. Right. Um, and so, and so I feel like there are some traditions who with good intention seek to make the narrative so seamless that Jesus was always there, that when he comes on the scene, it feels anticlimactic. Yeah. Um, and I understand where that comes from because we want to see the unity of, of the Trinity. We want to see the plan that he was the lamb, who was slain from the beginning of the foundation of the world. But I remember a particular day, I was walking my daughters like this double stroller. Right. I have all but lost my mind because I had twins and I didn't know what to do with them.
Speaker 1 00:20:33 And I'm walking them in. And I think at this point, my husband was with me, but I'd been mulling it over all day. We, we, we disclosed our Indian grams earlier and I'm a six and, and I'm an internal processor, right. So I'd been mulling over this all day. And I just told my husband, I just looked in, I said, I I've been asking this question for a long time, but now that I'm a parent, I feel like I can ask it in a different way, which is if it was all seamless, then why did it even matter that he came? And, and when I had the girls, I'm like, no, I get it. I get the seamlessness. But there is no comparison to a promise of a baby and a baby. Yeah. There is just no comparison. And I feel like part of what you do in this book is you take us through that middle part between the promise and the baby.
Speaker 2 00:21:34 Yeah. Yeah. Well, there, I like you come from what you're describing is very similar to the roots that I grew up in, at least the narrative of Jesus, what there are other physiological, um, views of incarnation, which is like, when, when in Philippians two, when you're saying like, he took, he humbled himself, took his self as a form of a servant. Um, that one of the things about Jesus's incarnation is that, um, he didn't know he had no memory. So if you look at Jesus's story, the garden of guests Semini his freaking out is, cause he doesn't know if he's gonna resurrect. He trusts God. But cause that's what he's heard to do like there. So if you start to see the story from that, like he didn't know. And that was part of taking the mantle off and becoming us. That's part of his humanity. It's a much different story. And then you're like, Oh, so he was really human. Like we are, because we don't know. And that is, that will take your dead dying faith and go, excuse me, I'm sorry. What did you say?
Speaker 1 00:22:50 Yeah, no, that's what I'm experiencing right now. When you just did that is, excuse me. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 00:22:55 He didn't, he didn't know. Um, cause then it's, then it goes, then you're like, wait, God really did take on vulnerable.
Speaker 1 00:23:06 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:07 And then that's, that's why the angels show up and sing. Cause they're like you, do you understand what's happening right now, right? Yeah. That'll that'll cook your noodle for a long time. It will. That, that feel logical viewpoint has single-handedly like restored everything that I thought I had to like throw away because it didn't make sense anymore. It was just like, helped me get it like, Oh that's yeah. So then, then, then why his name means so much that it's I'm with you, God with us, is that in our own, the vulnerability of unknowing of not knowing of not knowing how it's going to turn out, we don't have an un-empathetic high priest. Right. We have one who's like, I know what it's like to not know how it's going to turn out.
Speaker 1 00:23:57 I mean, you're okay. We're like, I'm thanks. Cause I'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight. So that's so there's that? Um, yeah. And I'm like, and I have another meeting and a couple of hours, like, how am I going to do this? Okay. So it says Alexis focus. Um, but I want to,
Speaker 2 00:24:15 Then when you start thinking about this whole incarnation story, you're just like, it's God participating in it. God is incarnating through human vulnerability and inviting human vulnerability to be like, it, it is the way that God is, uh, putting on and coming in and being in the world. And so where we can find God now where we find Jesus in our midst now is through our own human vulnerability. It is in all of our, our doubts and our fears and those things that we are able, those don't become the walls, separating us from God. They are the doorways to connect to God. Right. Right. It's not about becoming perfect. It's about perfecting. Well, um, that's maybe a different kind of quote we're perfect. We're perfecting, uh, that's let me change that. I was going to go a different, it's not about being, it's not being perfect. We're what we're here to do is perfect. Our love together. That's what we're doing, but we're doing that through all of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities and stuff. Um, anyways. Yeah, we could keep going, but I think you have another
Speaker 1 00:25:21 No, it's no, it's so good. No, I know. I want to, I want to kind of keep going in that vein because, um, you, you said at, I think it's even in the intro, that part of what you were talking about and that you've got, you know, the snow dusting and the decorations and we do this every year and, and the quarter wrote down was familiarity kills, wonder, but I feel like what you do in this book, because yes, there is an aspect in which I, a hundred percent agree with you that the familiarity of it kills the wonder. We know what's going to happen every year. It's the same. We get this, we know the story, we know the carols. We know where we can go see the best nativity scene. We know who's got the who's we know, we know all of it, but this book for me, the familiarity, you took it to a different place. And it restored my wonder. So what I mean by that is when spoiler alert, there's a, an illustration in the book with someone wiping a baby booty
Speaker 1 00:26:32 And, and that is familiar to me. I have four kids. I have wiped a lot of buts in my mothering days that is familiar to me. But that restores my wonder in the incarnation. Because even though I don't want to think about it, because I think sometimes we've been, uh, maybe trained to think that it's not honorable, but the truth. And, and you define that in kind of the way, same way I do it with my kids. Like what really happened, seeing what really happened, right? Like the truth is somebody had to wipe Jesus's booty
Speaker 2 00:27:06 Change is dirty nappies. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 Change all of his dirty diapers, you know, like there's, there's not even like a special little trashcan for them to put it in. Like, they've, they've got to figure this out, but this familiarity of the humanity that I feel like you, you brought in this book, um, helped restore some of the wonder of the incarnation or me and, and not, and not kill it, like the decorations do, but, but it restored it because that is, that's what we're familiar with. We know what this kind of family thing looks like.
Speaker 2 00:27:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that particular meditation is for mighty God from the Isaiah prophecy. And I think I started by saying, um, if you live long enough, your, the, the end of your life will begin as the beginning of your life with somebody else wiping your butt. And it's like from vulnerabilities, from vulnerabilities, from vulnerability to vulnerability, our life begins and ends. And, and I go, I walk through like different seasons of your life with those particular vulnerabilities look like, and, and really the cause when people say mighty God, um, what, because of our love of power and violence, we think, we think mighty God means I have the biggest iron man suit and can take everybody out. And, and, and besides that one time that Jesus flips over tables, which a lot of people use to, to support violence. You're like he doesn't do anything mighty that way.
Speaker 2 00:28:39 There's no like, like in what I, what I, um, submit is like, Jesus is mighty because he's willing to go through it. And that is, he's willing to go through human vulnerability and not like shirk away from it and not, and like, and that's what we're invited to do. And, and so Jesus is mighty because he, he didn't, he didn't ever step out of what he was asked to do. And granted I've, I think in that when I'm like, he had some extra curricular activities that we maybe don't have, but like still, it was beset with his own weaknesses, which is, I mean, it's hard. Like, uh, and this is the journey of any faith person. Is it it's, it is our tendency to, we might not think we're like, you shouldn't make any gods other than God, but we do. That's just what we, even, our idea of God is an image of God.
Speaker 2 00:29:34 It's, doesn't encapsulate the Holy mystery that we've given a name. God, try to describe it. You so always, we have to keep confronting these cliches or these conclusions that we come to. Not that we're not landing on any kind of like a gathering of character or information, but we always have to, when we make an we've finalized an image, like when we've become bored with the image, it's the problem isn't thought itself. The problem is the image reconstructed, and to think about, um, and some, some people, maybe Jesus having weaknesses scandals to them, but you're like, so he never slept. He never got tired. We know that's not true. He speaks of being thirsty and hungry and sitting down for a rest needing to get away a break from the crowds like this is yeah. A heartbroken, grieving cry. I tell people all the time, um, I'm like, look, I'm a Christian because of the resurrection, but I'm mostly a Christian because of the shortest verse in the Bible, which is Jesus wept.
Speaker 2 00:30:37 Because, uh, if I've cried at friend's funerals and if there's a story about God participating in humanity and that God never cried at one of his friend's funerals, I wouldn't believe it. Cause I would be like, you were insulated from the whole thing that on like, that's one of the reasons I think it's a real true story. Cause I was like, cause get ready. You will find yourself at your friend's funeral leaping. And that's part of this life. And I find that the Jesus story is actually dynamic enough to have all those aspects of it. Um, it's just what we butt up against or what becomes familiar as the, like maybe the, the conclusions we come to about what the story is. And if we go deeper and look at it longer and admitted like, well maybe find it admittingly. Like sometimes I wish the Bible was written better.
Speaker 2 00:31:29 Like I wish like Anne Lamont could take a chapter or, you know, just it's, it's not, it doesn't, you know, it's not written like a play it's, you know, it's an ancient script. It's it's, it has a purpose. And these books have like a specific way of specific the audience they're trying to get to in steady and hermeneutics and all that stuff can help exude some of that. But like, I really viewed it as I wasn't trying to be like, here's an in depth word of what this Greek word means. Although I do mention a couple of Greek words, but I like was more of like, how is this revealing humanity in here? Um, and uh, cause what, why, why I'm still interested in the Bible is, um, and this is one of my teaching muses, as I say, um, the reason we're the only reason we're telling the story, because it's not a story that just happened back then.
Speaker 2 00:32:20 It's a story that's happening right now. If it was just a story back then, and it doesn't apply to now, we would stop telling it. Right. But because like sure, God asked one guy to take a set up on a mountain and sacrifice him and provided an alternative. And that's very specific, but we all have times in our lives where the thing we love the most is maybe the thing that needs to, that we have to offer up. And that's incredibly hard to do, you know, like, and, and so on and so forth. You, you know, you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1 00:32:54 No, but along those lines though, I want, there was, there was this, like, I dog-eared a lot in this book. I penciled in a lot in this book and starred and um, and really truthfully it's I think you said this when we weren't recording earlier that one of your friends, one of the endorsers said, this isn't a Christmas book. And, and, and I agree, like I try and thankfully so far, it's, it's, uh, I've been able to do it, but I, I actually like love reading. And so I love reading the books of the authors that I'm going to get to interview like, um, in full, because, um, because I enjoy it and it helps me hopefully have a better conversation. But with your book, I used it as a devotional and today I found myself kind of a little bit sad that it was over.
Speaker 1 00:33:48 I was like, I'm done. I don't have anything. You know, I did, I did. I mean, I did my normal scripture readings today, but then I was like, Oh, where's my, Oh, it's, it's done. But you know, I can start it again. It's great. But one of the, one of the quotes that I have that I thought was so powerful, that goes along with what you're saying is you say, um, there was a moment when the presence of God was felt as the unease of morning sickness. Don't be surprised if your current and ease is that same exact Avenue of presence. And I just thought that was so powerful, because again, it's like familiar, right? Like you, you go on and I want, I want you to talk about it, but you talk about the uneasy and queasy feeling of having to go through with the physical details of the calling, right?
Speaker 1 00:34:44 Like we, and you also say, and I want you to talk about it, not me, but how, and any uneasiness, isn't always a sign that we're doing it wrong, that we're doing something wrong. Right. Because we looked through this Luke story and we see the announcement and we see like, she's kind of scared, but then she gets over it and then she goes to visit Elizabeth and then she comes back and then she has a baby, but, um, that's a 22 minute sitcom wrap up of how that happened. And even in the sitcom, that chick is usually pregnant for the whole season. Right. I mean, that's a pretty quick thing, but, but like I have a dear friend of mine is, is pregnant right now. And we were talking about how the morning sickness is just such a stupid term because for many women who have it, it's all day and you know, and then you can hope that it goes away at the end of the first trimester. But for a lot of women, it doesn't, my sister was gigantic pregnant with my nephew and puking every day. And it's just like, but that's, but he's a healthy six foot six boy. Now this wasn't a sign that she was doing something wrong. No, it was just part of the growth process. So, Oh my goodness. Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2 00:35:56 Yeah. Yeah. Like my wife, uh, she, she has always like the worst, like third trimester heartburn. Just, I remember her just being like sitting up in bed at like 2:00 AM, just like, I can't lay down or I, that hurts so bad. Yeah. And, and if we went to the doctor, the doctor would be like, you're doing it. Right. What it's part, it's part of the process of growing something new. And I, I, in that meditation, I allude to like all kinds of uncomfortable. The sign of growing is, is unease. It is, um, like I, well, we had just moved when I was writing this book. And not only because of COVID did like my calendar go away. Um, we moved and we were isolated in Austin. We couldn't see our friends, the city's closed down all of this stuff. And I was like, we knew it was the right move, but it was very uncomfortable to be where we're at.
Speaker 2 00:36:55 It's very uncomfortable to pack up your stuff and move to another place. It's like very uncomfortable to train for a marathon. It's very uncomfortable to like, try to start dating again. It's very uneasy to like, try to learn a new skill and do it. And I say like, I've been building a speaking career over the last few years, and there've been many speeches that I've given where I've thrown up a little bit in my mouth before I gave a speech or like that acid comes up and you're just like, Oh, nerves. Right. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It means you're on the right track. And, um, I think in that meditation, I end with, like, if you asked a pregnant woman who had just thrown up in the toilet, if it was, why are you doing this? And she's like, it's for love.
Speaker 2 00:37:38 I'm doing it. I'm doing it for love. And I think that's the same answer we get from God in our unease is like, why are you doing this to me? Which our question is to God, like, have you left me? Are you ignoring me? And God is like, I'm growing you and growing involves discomfort and I'm doing it because I love you. And so the place that you're finding uneasy is maybe where the divine is working in your life. And maybe that looks like allowing yourself to start being kind to yourself or thinking that you could be beloved, allowing yourself to forgive and get rid of that hate that you've been carrying, even though it's justified because that person's a real jerk and hurts. You really awfully, maybe it's, um, maybe it's the unease of like starting again mid, mid way through your life and go. And a lot of my dreams didn't come true, and this is not where I want it to end up, but I'm not done yet. And it's going to be humbling, but I can, I can start over. I can try something new, you know, and those are, those will be uneasy feelings for sure. But it might mean that you're on the right track. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:38:52 So I want to kind of start to end, start to end where you end, because we talk about the unease and we've talked about vulnerability and in the book you talk about risk, which is, you know, what makes us feel vulnerable in any easy and all of that, um, can lead to fear, right? Like we just talked about, like Mary was freaked out when Gabriel came and met her and we can cut this if you're not, if you're not okay with it, if you're published, not okay with it, but end by saying, be not afraid. What if, what if we said this instead of Merry Christmas?
Speaker 2 00:39:47 Yeah. It could be a legit substitute.
Speaker 1 00:39:49 Yeah. Tell us why though, because that just made me smile.
Speaker 2 00:39:55 I mean, throughout the Holy scriptures and specifically in this story, uh, the announcement or the coming of like the divine and human connection, a lot of, a lot of that, uh, announcement are coming to starts with, don't be afraid like it starts with, because what is, I mean, if we, what are we thinking about when we think that, is it just like, Oh, a flash of light and I'm scared, you know, like, like, is it startled? Is that with like, don't be afraid or is it, is it deeper than that? Is it the fear of like, Oh God, everything's going to be different now. Or, uh, maybe it's like, Oh, this is actually true. There really is a God, you know, like it, the fear is, is, you know, we'd have to see like the thing behind the thing behind the thing, it's the fear is building off narratives and assumptions about how things are supposed to work house was who am I supposed to be in the story?
Speaker 2 00:40:55 And all of that's being torn down. And so, uh, I think, I think the invitation there is to go, what are our deepest fears? And God's announcement to us is going to start with those fears. It's going to start with like, do you even see me? And, uh, are you even involved in our lives? God. Um, yeah. And so I, I think that it's interesting. It may very well be that I'm misinterpreting and maybe it's just like every angel with a light show and it startles people and they go say, just chill out, just wait till the sparkles die down, and then I'll tell you something. But I think it's, I think, I think that revelation and communication with God, actually, it's always going to confront these deep things in our heart. And, um, I think when we are, when we say Merry Christmas, we're saying like, all of your assumptions about how you think this is supposed to go down can be toppled over like something new is coming and that's possibly with you. And in order for us to enter into it, we need to do address our fears. And so I think God's coming, his message. What I had take a take on is like, be, don't be afraid, like, let's start with your fears. Let's start there before that. And we'll get to good news and tidings of great joy,
Speaker 1 00:42:24 Right? Because when he, you know, I just kept thinking the, the little button, right. That, you know, somebody's somebody's mother-in-law or grandma or aunt has that button, um, on their Jean jacket that says, put the Christ back in Christmas, or it's on their proper sticker. But I'm like, but saying, be not afraid because I, because I agree with you. I think this is not just about a light show. Um, my kids will try to scare me, you know, I come out of the bathroom. Did I get you? You know, I'm like, listen, I'm a mother of four. There's nothing you can do to make me afraid. Okay. You're not going to scare me, but I will admit to them sometimes of being startled. Right. Um, but I do, I do. I think that there, I agree with you that it's more than a startling, that there is this deep fear. But when I think when you're talking about that, like putting the Christ back in Christmas is the truth. That perfect love cast out all fear. And so when he is coming to us and saying, there's going to be transformation, there's going to be revelation. There's going to be something new. Um, it is for the sake of love. Yeah. Just, just like the morning sickness, right. It's for the sake of love. And so don't be afraid of that. Um, good tidings, joy. Um, all of that that you just said,
Speaker 2 00:43:50 This is, this is how we're going to, this is how we're going to become best friends. Like thinking, like, I know this isn't exactly what you're talking about with the fear, but the first one is about revelation and talking about like how I think we all kind of wish we had divine revelation, but it's like, well, there's a cost with them. Do you really want it? Like, for example, would you want, uh, an interaction with an angel? If, or would you want to be told something that then now every time you go to target, you hate it. Maybe you already hate target. You know what I'm saying? Like, what if, what if a perspective and you change so much that the flavor of all that like consumerism was trying to give you just went out and it became tasteless. Right? Do you love target so much that you're like, I don't want to lose liking target?
Speaker 2 00:44:38 Or would you be like, I'm okay. Losing target. Cause there's something better. You know what I'm saying? That sounds kind of weird. It's not like I'm a, I love target, but target works really hard when you walk in their story, you're like, Oh, come on. Yeah. It was kind of fun. I'm going to buy something and feel good. What if all of that changed for you because of something that God gave you. Right. Would you be happy about that? Or would you be kind of pissed? Like God ruined target for me, but it happened. I haven't Joanna are there and they're God's angels. Yeah, no I'm saying, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, this is what we're talking about is like God coming to Mary, like just EFT up her life in a way that maybe later on she's like it was worth it.
Speaker 2 00:45:23 But it, it, there was a lot of pain and things along the way. And I, and I think like to really embrace incarnation, I'll just tell you this. Isn't my story. But this is where a lot of this influence comes. There's a great author. I think he's still alive. Frederick Beachner writer, pastor, I'm mostly an author, but he, he, he, he, he has this essay called a message in the stars and it's in his, it's in this book. Um, Oh, you'll just find it. I'll blow your secrets in the dark. It's about sermons based on like depression and dark times of life. But he goes, why doesn't God give evidence of his existence in a world? That's desperate for it. Like, why doesn't he? And he goes, well, what if God did? What if God did give physical evidence of his existence, say one night you looked up in the sky and the stars had adjusted and it's spelled it's me, God, I'm here.
Speaker 2 00:46:20 And astronomers and scientists looked at it and they're like, literally pull SARS, move to spell this out from our perspective. And to keep it in line, as it, as we're orbiting, you know, all the things and like what would happen to the he's? Like what would happen to the world if there was actual evidence and he muses, like churches would meet in football stadiums. And some people would be freaked out. Some people would be like, I'm right. Some people would feel vindicated all at this stuff. And he's like, what if it changed every night? Like it was in different languages. It was in French. It was in Japanese, all this stuff. And he goes years, past five years later, he was like, if I was to make a play about it, here's how I'd see it go down a dad and a son or out looking at the night sky.
Speaker 2 00:47:00 Sun's like, what's that dad and his dad go and it's in French that night. And it says, same why the bones, you and his dad's like, well, that's evidence that God exists. And he's like a kid in his innocence would say what we all felt, which is so what if God exists? What does that mean for us anyways? And Frederick Buechner goes, I don't, I think what we think our real question is is does God exist or not? And he's like, I don't think that's real question. I actually think our real question is, does God exist in all of this? Like this, like my life, this life, your life, our life, this human happening. That's going, it's God in this, not just out there, like I'm here, but like in it, in the name, God, with us eludes that he's intentionally involved. And so what we, what we have to do is to get into the messiness of all this and go, are you, I mean, I, and I don't, I haven't told this to many people.
Speaker 2 00:48:07 So your lucky they're like, you know, I constantly am I'm I live in Austin and I'm at home a lot with three kids and stuff, but I'm like, do you have plans for climate change? Do you, do you, do you have something to offer us? Like we could use some help. Do you like, how do we end endless war? Like, do you have any, are you in, are you in the midst of this? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like all the stuff that's coming up in my deepest heart, I'm like, I know you, I guess you exist, but are you in this? How, where how, you know? And I think that's where, like, that's my fears. That's my real fears. My sure. I'm afraid of sharks when I'm in the water. Yes. But I think like my deepest, deepest fear is like, are you really in any of this?
Speaker 2 00:49:03 Are you and my meditation on an incarnation is to have hope that yes. In a way that I, that I miss a lot that yes. At least that's my hope. And that's what, that's what I'm going forward. Does that, does that make sense? When we talk about fears? Like what's the fear beyond the fear, beyond the fear, I'm sure I'm afraid of falling rocks when I'm hiking. But more, my fear is like, is my existence meaningless? That's my deeper fear. And I think that's the fear that be not afraid confronts. It might be like, Hey, not to startle you, but I think it's also like, I see you, which is a deeply meaningful and powerful statement.
Speaker 1 00:49:48 Yeah, no, that's no, it it's, I'm all over it. No, it's, it's, it's really there because this is about our becoming and it's about our humanity and it's about our group and it's about all of this. And, and when you were talking another book, so yeah. So this is how we become best friends. Because when you were talking about a book, I was thinking about another book and you you've there's, it's possible. You've read this one. I had not read the one that you were talking about, but this, um, Brennan Manning has just been like all over my week, this week. Um, he just like popped out of nowhere and some of these places in my mind, but, um, there was a book. I, I, it was republished under another name. I read it an old thrift books copy, um, called the lion and the lamb.
Speaker 1 00:50:36 But I think it's now called, um, something like the relentless gentleness of Jesus or something like that. But, um, there isn't an analogy that he uses and I think he stole it. I think he, I think he, he cites someone else, but he talks about how do we view God? And when you were talking about is, you know, does he exist? Okay. We see him in the stars, but what does that mean for me? And he kind of even talks about what, what have we done as a community? What have we done as a church? Um, we see God, if, if this was wagon train times, if this was Oregon trailer from the Northwest, but if this was,
Speaker 2 00:51:14 If I died of dysentery,
Speaker 1 00:51:16 Right. But if this was wagon train times, we see God as being, you know, the, the judge in the high tower, in the town, kind of looking out on all of the towns, people making sure that everyone is doing what they're supposed to be doing, but then he describes, um, kind of what I feel like is more accurate. And certainly it's more telling in my life I needed to hear it at the time was he describes the Trinity as being members of the wagon train. Right? Like, like God, the father is, he's kind of out front, like he's leading us and he's showing us where to go. And, and Jesus is the D is the trail hand, like he's helping change the wheels and he's in the dirt with us. And when things stop he's that he's kind of the trail hand. And the Holy spirit is, he says, he's a, he's a wild man is what he says. And he, and he, um, and he goes out and he hunts, he's a Buffalo Hunter. Right. And he comes any, any cooks the meat. And anyway, it's, it's, I'm probably getting some of those wrong. It's been a minute since I've read it, but it's just this. Yeah. It's not just does God exist. Like you said. Sure. Um,
Speaker 2 00:52:37 Yeah. Yeah. But he's like, he's involved like, um, Freddy B says in that he goes, what if that feeling that you have of lacking God is the presence of God in your life. Like that feeling you have of like disconnection is actually an acknowledgement of connection. Cause you're aware, you're aware of that relationship. And he goes through all these like simple things, which was really a, like a precursor or like a model for me to go where, what are all the simple overlooked places that actually like, cause there's a talking about not coming out of any other Protestant tradition, there's a thing called the examine, which is a Catholic tradition at the end of the day, you examine and you go, where did I see God today? And uh, you know, maybe every now and then it might be some big explosive firework kind of thing. But oftentimes it's just a really simple moments of observation or attention or kindness of like an unexpected kindness of a stranger, um, wishing for something and it coming like it, you know, like it was almost like, Oh, if somebody's watching out for me, what's going on? How did they know I needed that, you know? And that is often where you find God involved or see, or kind of see this divine woven this into your life. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:53:58 Yeah. I, I mean, I'm like, I don't know if we have time to go there. One of the things I wrote down is you have this meditation. Cause, cause when you were saying that it's like those simple things. I remember, I remember a particular moment in college. I was walking from my crappy apartment across campus and I, it was cold outside in Oklahoma. It's always windy. And I saw, I call them popping birds, but you know, I don't know what kind of bird it is, but it doesn't, it doesn't walk at hops. Right. And it was just this little hopping bird that was on the pavement in front of me. And I had this thought, um, that I thought was me, but now I wonder if it was actually the Holy spirit, but the thought was God put that hummingbird there for me. Like, because I love hopping birds.
Speaker 1 00:54:49 I just think that there are, there's just something about the men. I think they're so amazing. And I feel like if I were practicing the exam and I would say, that's how God showed up today. That's where I saw him was in this little hopping bird. But I do think that there are in some traditions and in some cultures, um, Christian cultures where we feel like to even acknowledge something like that is arrogant. Right. So it's too much about me at that moment. But I think now kind of in my, in my old age, I'm feeling like, is that arrogant or is that an acknowledgement of our relationship of this divine relationship that we have? And, and you have this meditation where you, where you say maybe Jesus needs us. Yeah. And then that's, that's scandalous. You say it, it is it's scandalous to say.
Speaker 2 00:55:51 And then I ended with, why is that? Why, why? Well, because I prefaced like to be fully human cause people like Jesus was fully God and fully human. It's like to be fully human is tid need people. Yeah. No human who's ever been healthy or whole has lived a life without needing people. And I go through kind of like a life of needing and go didn't Jesus need all this as, so if like, if we need him, doesn't he need us and why is that? So scandalous to say, cause we want, cause it's like, I start with being like, we'd like to think that Jesus was just this solo act. Like not needing anybody, not just like, I'm going to overturn religion and start another one that is, I don't know, you know? And I don't need anybody. I'm just by myself.
Speaker 1 00:56:38 Well, all I need is this lamp right there.
Speaker 2 00:56:43 And you're like, well, that doesn't sound like a healthy person at all. Yeah. Healthy people are intermeshed with others.
Speaker 1 00:56:52 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:56:54 And, and I can, I confront the, the, I confront the scandal in me and I'm like, why is that there? Who told me that that would be so scandalous. I'm not like proposing codependency, you know, like in an unhealthy way. I'm just saying like sociologists and psychologists would be like no healthy human relationships involve loving commitment to one another through friendship, through marital commitments, through all kinds of relational things.
Speaker 1 00:57:22 Well had tell you no, go ahead. Yeah, no, he needs, he needs it.
Speaker 2 00:57:27 He needs us. Um, and we need him and uh, yeah. And there is this kind of cosmic interwoven, this that I think as you keep going, you, you start to see it. I think you're alluding you're at least when I hear you tell your story from my own experiences, I'm like, uh, yeah, it's probably both. And like the truth is, is like birds are just around and you notice one, right? But also something inside of you, an internal pattern in you was reflected in an external pattern outside. And at that moment, those two things came together. That's the chapter on the magic. Whereas the amazing thing about the story of the magic is not that they went and found Jesus it's that they looked in the sky and they saw a star and they said, the God I've been wanting to know has given me a sign to go find him.
Speaker 2 00:58:16 Let's go find him what it started inside. They were like, I have this desire. And then it got represented on the outside. And then the two brought them into that experience. I have this app, you listening at home, can't see this bed, this big owl tattoo on my arm because I had this experience bit of a story. But like the way that I developed talks as I go on long walks. So I was on this three hour walk in Portland, it was getting dark. It was kind of drizzling out. And I was praying for wisdom. I was trying to figure something out. And I was in this park, Laurel Hurst park. And I was lit. I was praying to be visited by wisdom. And in that moment, I, it came to me the thing I was trying to figure out, it's like, Oh, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 2 00:58:56 That's what I've been trying to figure out. And then moments later, this giant bird buzzed me like huge wings. And I was like, Whoa, what the heck? And then it went up in the tree, in the dark and it took out my phone turned on the flashlight and there was a giant owl there just looking at me. And I stood there for legit 10 minutes just watching it and looked at me like a girl ran by with her dog. And she stopped. And she's like, is that an owl? And I was like, yeah, it buzzed me. She was like, Whoa. And she kept running. And, and then I ended up leaving, kept walking. And then later on, I was like, what just happened? I prayed for wisdom. I got the thing internally. And then I was visited by the animal that represents wisdom, at least in our culture.
Speaker 2 00:59:41 And then, but then I found out later that owls tend to buzz people because they're highly territorial. So what's true. Maybe both. Right. And that's what, that's what mystery is. Mystery is the in between of two paradoxical truths. It's living in the paradox of like owls are territorial and their guard. So maybe the Sal had a nest somewhere in discarding it. But isn't it interesting that my interaction with this territorial owl happened at the same time, this prayerful journey was happening. And I live in the mystery and I don't know if you're this way, but I'm like, I don't care. It does like what was really happening. Isn't important except it did happen. And it changed my life and that's the fruit of something happened. And I think that's what, when we, at least those of us of faith, there are many things on the one side of the paradox where like, there's probably an explanation. I'm probably making this up, but then there's this like birth is just biology coming out of biology. And then there's this other side of it. And it's like, but why did we all cry when that happened? And in the middle of it is the mystery of our lives. And that's, I think where we're bumping into the divine is in that middle. That's perfect.
Speaker 1 01:01:04 I think that's, I mean, I do. I think that's a great, I think that's a great way, um, to wrap us up. So Scott, this has been incredible. The book, which I will link in the notes again is honest, advent awakening to the wonder of God with us then here and now it says on the cover of 25 readings for advent and Christmas. And I am going to agree with your friend that this is 25 readings for whenever the heck you want to read this because it is, um, surely it is good seasonally, but, um, but this is just good for, for everyday life. So let us know where we can find the book and where we can follow along with you because I'm kind of thinking before the next book comes out. I'll want to be one of those Instagram followers who sees the drawings before it becomes a book.
Speaker 2 01:01:56 Yeah. Um, well I'm most active on Instagram. I'm Scott, the painter there. Um, honest, advent has its own website. Honestly, I've been to com you can find the book in any place, major books are sold. Um, and then my website, Scott Erickson, art.com. But, um, yeah, the next book is my one man show say yes, that it's being turned into a book I'm in the midst of that. So that will, that's coming. That's coming out next year as well. But it's amazing. Um, I'm, I'm talking about vulnerability. Oh man, I've been doing some pep talks the last couple of days creating and creating, it's creating something is very humbling. And I just had to like go, okay, big breath. I'm in my forties. Let's learn, you know, like it's just, it's just a humbling process of learning, but then, but then realizing like if I'm here, that means like everything I like, why would it have, why would I be here if God hasn't brought me here? So I met I'm in, I'm believing that everything I need is on this journey. So let's just go on the journey.
Speaker 1 01:03:02 Well, thank you so much for doing it. I actually had in my notes that quote of yours, all creating as an expression of vulnerability. And so I appreciate you doing that. And then I think I don't, I don't remember where it is, but I feel like I remember also jotting this down, that we connect with one another and the places where we have a limp. And so, um, and so by you being vulnerable enough to create this and share this, it connects with us even if we don't get to do it face to face, but it, you connect with us and then we can then connect with others and connect with God. And it's just this really beautiful, beautiful story that's happening in the midst of this. So thank you so much for sharing it with us.
Speaker 2 01:03:44 You're you're welcome. Um, it means a lot that you actually read it and loved it, and I know I'm on the right path.
Speaker 1 01:03:51 It did. Thank you so much, Scott, the links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
