Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 1 00:00:39 Betty, I am here today with Holly, Christine Hayes of the sanctuary project, and we just realized that we're neighbors because Holly isn't Austin. Hi Holly. Hi Alexis. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, of course. I am just, I just want to start off by saying that the jewelry that you and your team produce and, and design is absolutely beautiful. It is just beautiful. So thank you so much for that. I know we'll get to it a little bit later and I will, um, be sure to link all of this in the show notes, but Holly's jewelry line, um, that we'll talk about from her company. The sanctuary project was just released on target.com, which is a pretty big deal in time for the holidays. Yeah, it's incredible. And it just meant so much more employment for the ladies we work with. So we're so, so excited about it.
Speaker 1 00:01:35 Yeah. So, um, you've written a book too, and maybe since we've started talking about the jewelry and you're talking about the ladies, we can, we can push the book just a bit. And, um, can you tell us about when you say the, the ladies that you employ, what is special about the women that you guys work with at the sanctuary project? So all of our staff, a hundred percent of the women on staff with sanctuary project are survivors of trafficking, violence and addiction. Um, so we've all walked out of a life, um, that, that involved those things. And, uh, the amazing thing about the community we've built is that it's a place where, where we're really known and accepted and loved. And, uh, we all have very different stories. Um, you know, we talked about this a little bit, even before we were recording, but trafficking has comes in all different forms.
Speaker 1 00:02:22 Um, for some of us, it was through a relationship, um, for one of the ladies, it was actually kind of that typical trafficking story. You would imagine where she was actually kidnapped and held against her will. And, um, but the, the one thing we all have in common is that we're survivors of that trauma. And, uh, and so it's a, it's a wild place. And that way sometimes because, um, we're all trauma survivors and we're working together and we have to have so much grace with each other, but it's a wonderful place most of the time, because every single day I get to see God's redemptive work and not just my life, um, as a survivor myself coming out of that life about 20 years ago, um, I get to see that every single day in the lives of the women we work with all day long, we take the mess of our past and we make beautiful things out of it, um, quite literally, right. Cause we're making jewelry. And so it's all day long. We're making beautiful things together as a prophetic picture of what God's done.
Speaker 2 00:03:17 Oh, I just, I just love that so much. And I don't know if it's just recently. So, um, something we, we didn't chat about before, but, um, my husband and I have four kids and one of them is adopted. And so, um, there is a beautiful book called the connected child where the author talks about children from hard places. Um, and so I just am enjoying so much this, um, this Christ centered, um, awareness of trauma. Um, you mentioned before, when you were, we were talking a little bit about our, um, you know, kind of our religious backgrounds of, of the, of the theology of suffering, right. And it's like, I think for a long time, um, it's been more kind of traditional, at least in some evangelical settings and things like that to just really focus on, um, on the overcoming part, without as much focusing on the trauma related to the suffering that happened, you know, and, and the, and, and the, and moving forward in that, just to recognize this, isn't something that's usually a clean cut and we say, okay, well, this happened.
Speaker 2 00:04:26 And now we some, one day something happened and now all of a sudden everything's beautiful and life is roses and there's rainbows, you know, and it's like lost, but now I'm found right. And we can put a date on the calendar and then everything's great from, from that point forward. But Jesus loves us, are our past present and future. And he loves us through that. And, and I think the work that you're doing with these women is so beautiful because it, it reminds me now the script, the scripture escapes me, but like comforting one another with the comfort, with which we've been comforted, right. Um, this, like, this is what you're doing. And so to recognize you, you can see in these women that you can extend to them, the patience and the grace, um, that was extended to you, um, throughout your process because you understand it and you know where they're coming from, but you can also see the potential of where they're headed. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:05:26 And I love that you talk about it as a process, because I think there is this idea in the church that, um, you know, that we have sort of a salvation moment, right. And then that everything is different after that moment. Um, and I think in the heavens, that's true. Right. Um, my heavenly fate was sealed on the moment that I cried out to God and said, help me rescue me. Um, my, my fate was sealed. My eternal salvation was sealed in that moment. My life didn't change automatically. Right. Um, I mean, my, my life, like when I look at, cause, you know, I can say that date. It was February 10th of 2001. I was on the floor of a bathroom. I cried out God helped me. And he did. And I, and I started that journey into a whole new life. But that life in the last 20 years has been this radical series of ups and downs and horrible moments, suicidal depression, um, you know, re triggering of trauma that, that left me in really dark places.
Speaker 1 00:06:24 Um, getting into abusive relationships, even sober and in Christ, you know, finding myself again on that bathroom floor. And this time it was a clean one, um, you know, in a nice home. And yet there I am again on the bathroom floor in my sin. And so I think what I love about the place that we've created is that it is a place that has grace for that journey. And that understands like, okay, this, this person may be five years out, but that doesn't mean she's not still a trauma survivor. That doesn't mean she's not going to get re-triggered in any given moment. Um, you know, if I manage her wrong, um, or, you know, we had, we had some inventory come in recently that was damaged. And it was funny cause like our op not funny, but our operations director was like trauma triggered by that because she was like, Oh, no, like this is a problem that I can't control. What do I do with this? And so all the time we're watching that journey unfold and, and trying to, to have grace for each other and be Christ in each other's lives and be a safe place for, for those things to resurface and be healed again and redeemed again and deliver it again. Um, and you know, and that's an ongoing journey that we're on together.
Speaker 2 00:07:32 It is. And, and I love how you phrase, how you phrase that, because it reminds me when I was, when I was reading your book, which we will get to, it was amazing. I mean, memoirs are my jam. And so I just, I just love it, but I'm like, but Jesus is also my jam. Right. And so it was just, I just love this because it was, I loved it. I loved it. It, it felt like a morning devotional. Honestly, there was like so much scripture and it was just very beautiful. Um, but I was reminded of when you, when you said that it's, it's not just, yes, there is a date on your calendar and in the heavens, this is true, but your life didn't automatically change on that date. And I, I want to say part of this is it reminded me of, um, when we, we spent some time ministering in Israel for, for a few years and when, at least at that point in time, and I think it's still the case, but when we would meet believers in Israel and we would ask them to tell us their story of how they met Jesus, many of them would start with the phrasing.
Speaker 2 00:08:35 Well, I repented on such and such date, or, you know, maybe they may have a date or they may have a, a time or an experience, which in the American Christian Church, we usually say I was saved, right. Like I got saved on this date. And I don't, I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that language, but the language does feel a little bit like snatched up, you know, like I got, I picked up, I got saved and yes, God does rescue us and he saves us. But the idea of using this terminology, I repented I repented on this day gives me that picture of what you're talking about. Because when we say our repented and we say, I quit walking that direction, but I started walking this direction. And that doesn't mean that in this direction, there are no potholes or in this direction, I'm never going to stumble.
Speaker 2 00:09:23 Right. What that means is in this direction, I recognize that I can hold God's hand to pull me up when I do stumble. And that's not something that I may have seen or recognized when I was walking in the other direction. Right. And so it just reminded me reading your book reminded me of that language and how it felt very foreign, but it felt very fresh at the same time to think about that. Um, so the women that you guys work with, can you tell me how that got started? Where did the sanctuary project come for you? Where did it come from?
Speaker 1 00:10:01 So I had spent a lot of years kind of volunteering in the anti-trafficking world, starting in about 2010. Um, and at the time I felt called to it because I would consider myself a former sex worker. Um, I would have articulated that I did not, uh, identify as a trafficking survivor. Um, I, I thought my story was, um, something I had chosen. Um, I start, I started stripping when I was 18 and then I had a boyfriend, um, when I was, who I met when I was 19 and was with kind of off and on 19 to 21 who had started selling me to other men, I, at the time I thought he was helping me out. Um, and I thought that I was complicit in it and I never would have articulated that as trafficking. I, uh, so I identified as a former sex worker, but I, I still identified with these women, right.
Speaker 1 00:10:49 These poor, poor women in third world countries who were being trafficked. Um, and I started visiting Thailand and Cambodia and other countries around that area that, that were sort of hotbeds for trafficking. Um, and in my mind at this point, it was over their problem. And I was going in as just a sympathetic ear that could say I've been there. Um, you know, I know I know what you're feeling. Um, but, but again, I didn't identify as a trafficking survivor. Uh, but what I did see was I saw, um, I saw an organization in Thailand, specifically pulling women out of the brothels, out of trafficking situations and teaching them to make jewelry. And I saw this beautiful community being built in that. And I saw these women just feeling safe and feeling loved. And like we talked about in the beginning of this interview, making beautiful things all day long, and I began to dream of a place like that, um, in, in America.
Speaker 1 00:11:45 Um, so when I, when I finally realized I actually had someone articulate, had I had to have someone articulate it to me that I was a trafficking. Um, I would not have, you know, like I said, I would not have known that. I, um, I didn't understand the definition of trafficking was someone, um, profiting off of, uh, you know, sexual exploitation. And so I saw him as my boyfriend. I thought he was helping me out. Um, and as I was telling that story to someone, uh, they reflected back to me, so he was your pimp. Um, and, and I was able to say, Oh, Oh, Oh, I guess, yeah, I guess he was. But, uh, but it, it, it just had never occurred to me. Right. But what I know now is that the majority, the vast majority of trafficking cases are just like this.
Speaker 1 00:12:29 There it's a, it's a known person. It's a relationship that they, that they have. And especially here in America, we're not seeing, you know, girls being sold from their village to the businessman in the city. We don't see that type of, um, of sort of poverty induced trafficking here. What we see is, uh, women who are in tough economic positions being exploited by what we would call a pimp, um, which is just another word for a trafficker. If they're taking your money, they're a trafficker. I had no idea. Um, and so today I get to tell my story, especially in the jails and every time I tell my story, I see other girls just like tears streaming down their eyes going, Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, I was trafficked. You know, like they wouldn't have known that or thought that, um, but what I love about what we're doing here is that, uh, that I, that community I saw modeled in, in Thailand, that community of, of women coming together, um, that's the dream that I I've gotten to see births in, um, in, in America and working with girls coming out of trafficking here in America.
Speaker 1 00:13:31 And that picture usually looks really different than it does in other countries, which is why we made it trafficking violence and addiction. Um, we were talking about this before we started recording, but my trafficking story is not in my, in my, um, my trafficking story is not in the, as I experienced it. The worst thing that ever happened to me, I actually felt far more trapped by the violence and the addiction at that time than I did by the trafficking. Um, it's sort of an unpopular thing to, to say, cause I think trafficking is so sensationalized that it's like, that's the worst thing that could possibly happen to someone. Um, but for me, the worst thing that could've happened was actually failing at traffic, being trafficked and, and being kicked out by my trafficker and ending up homeless and really hitting bottom in that hopelessness. And so I've made sanctuary project, a place where women can come in, even if they're just identifying as an addict or, uh, as a domestic violence survivor, because oftentimes those are the things that, that can link to a trafficking situation, even if it hasn't happened already. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 So first thank you. Thank you. Because it's, I, I'm not even going to pretend that it's easy, an easy thing to get up and say what you say every time you do. And so thank you for sharing your story. Um, I thought of a couple of things when you were, when were sharing it and the first one is the language, just helping people name it, right? Like someone was able to help you name it, and now you can help other people name the same thing, which can help us process and heal. Um, this is such a, such a trivial example in comparison, but, um, a couple of years ago I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. And every once in awhile, I will say to my husband, we've been married for 17 years. And I would say to my husband, don't you remember at the beginning of our marriage when I just felt so bad all of the time.
Speaker 2 00:15:31 And I had all these symptoms and I didn't think they were related. And I thought I was crazy because I was Googling it and web bending it and trying to do the self-diagnosis and I couldn't figure anything out. All I knew was I felt really bad a lot of the time. And then I was able to speak with someone who knew about this. And she said, let's try this test and just see what happens. And we did, and someone named it and it's like, Oh, well, once you name it in so many ways, in so many circumstances, once you name it, then you can start moving toward the healing that you so desperately need. Right. Then I was like, Oh, well, that's it. And, and, and I can just do these things. And I, and I started feeling better, but, but before I had a name for it, I didn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2 00:16:18 Right. Like when someone did that with you and helped you name what was happening, and now you can help name that for other women who have experienced these same heartaches and experienced these same traumas and experienced the same pain, but they may not have a name for it yet. Like you expressed, like they don't realize, Oh, dear. That's what happened to me or that's who this person was, or that's how they were acting out. That was the role they had in my life. I didn't, I didn't realize that, but when you help them with that, it's, it's almost step zero toward the healing process. Um, yeah. Well, it's actually quite literally step one, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:01 Right. We can, I love it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:05 We confess what that thing is. That's harming our soul. Um, you know, I mean, the, uh, I'm a big fan, as you know, cause you read my book, I'm a big fan of the 12, the 12 step recovery process. And so in the 12 step recovery process, our first step and you hear this kind of in the world in general, but the first step is that we admit we're powerless over our addiction or whatever that thing is and that our life has become unmanageable. And so there is this power in naming sin and you know, that power of confession where it's like, God can't heal what we don't reveal. And so as soon as we can say this thing, this is what I'm experiencing. This is its name. Um, you know, I think of the scripture that says, confess your sins to God, right? He is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us all unrighteousness.
Speaker 1 00:17:49 So God forgives our sin. But then, but then there's a scripture that says, confess your sins to one another, pray for each other that you might be healed. So the first step in the healing journey is actually confessing to another person according to scripture. And so I think there's so much power in that. Just whether it's a disease, whether it's a sin, whether it's a lifestyle choice or, or non choice, you know, whatever it is, that moment where you can say this is what's happening. And you can say that to another person that's when that door swings open toward beginning, that healing process.
Speaker 2 00:18:23 So can we, can we park there for a second because in your book, so I just want to say let's, we can, I I'm so excited to shift there. Um, so Holly's book is from basement to sanctuary where, um, she takes us literally like through these, uh, physical places in a building and a church building. Um, and, and you know, that the end of the book is going to be the sanctuary. And so I don't remember what chapter preceded the confessional, but I was feeling very much like, okay, like this is, this is the climactic point I'm feeling I'm, you know, I was able, I was like, so blessed to be able to sit down and read it in like two sittings. And so I just kind of got all of it at once. And, and I was like, okay, we're almost there where to the sanctuary, I could see the pages, you know, getting near the end.
Speaker 2 00:19:12 And then it's the confessional booth. And I kind of, at first I was like, well, boo, I don't want to go, I just want to go to the sanctuary. But you talked about how you had this conversation with your husband about repentance. And so can you talk about that a little bit because your stories are vastly different, um, yours and your husband and your background and how you grew up. And so, um, talk about that a little bit, if you would just kind of like, from his perspective or having this conversation with him of what does that look like when you've kind of always grown up in church or maybe you've been kind of the good girl or the good guy and what place does repentance have in that for, for all of us? Well, I think,
Speaker 1 00:19:53 You know, it's interesting because I, so first of all, I wrote the book before my husband and I even started dating. So I wrote the book like first draft, you know, of the book in 2014, I was still single at the time. Um, I was, uh, I was not identifying as a trafficking survivor, so my trafficking story is not even in the book. Um, but I really wanted the book to be about, I really, I really wanted the books to be a letter to the church. And so, um, so if you get the book, I hope you, I hope you read it as such that this is a letter to the church about what I experienced in the basements of churches for years and the recovery community that, um, that was so different from what I experienced when I entered the pews. And when I, when I moved into the sanctuary of the church, um, my husband and I, uh, I actually had to go back and edit this chapter and put that conversation in, um, like right before I published the book, um, because it, it ended up publishing right after we got married and I had to have this conversation.
Speaker 1 00:20:48 Cause I thought it was so powerful. I remember asking him, what is, what does confession and repentance look like for you? And he told me, um, well, I guess I just sort of any conversation that starts with, I guess I just sort of, I was like, Hmm, there's not a lot of clarity around this. He said, I guess I just sort of like tell God what I've done. And I know that he's forgiven me. And I was like, huh. And, and how do you know when you've repented? And he was like, I don't know. I mean, literally couldn't articulate what repentance meant. And I thought this is so interesting, right? Because I spent so many years in the basements of churches and the recovery community where there's these steps, these literal 12 steps that are all about confession and repentance essentially. I mean, they're like, you know, you, you, um, you make a thorough inventory of your sin, essentially, like everything you've done.
Speaker 1 00:21:43 Um, and then you go and make restitution for all the harms you've done. And then you have this step 10, that's like this constant, you actually like daily take an inventory of where have you harmed people, what sins were activated and where do you potentially owe forgiveness? And, and we have an accountability person that we do that with. And, um, and it's a very regulated process. Um, and even in the Catholic church, this is a very regulated process, right? I mean, there's a literal confessional booth, um, that don't get used in the, in, in the, um, you know, in, in, uh, in the Protestant church, but in the Catholic church, you actually go and you confess your sin to another person, and then they give you an action to do as a repentance. Right. Um, and it's, and to me, it's sort of a shame that it's gotten lost in the, in the Protestant church, because there isn't this activity that's confession and repentance. Like it doesn't exist as a ritual or as, as an activity. And I think what happens is you end up with a lot of people, just sort of wondering if their sin is being removed. Wondering if it's being forgiven, wondering if it's being dealt with by God and we're all going to have sin. Right. I mean, I like, I have it daily. I don't know about you, but like sin lives in me every
Speaker 2 00:22:58 Day. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 00:22:59 And so what do we do with that? Right. Like I think I get so frustrated with the church sometimes because I see this group of centers sitting in pews and thinking that they have to act like they have it all together, act like they're not, um, going home and sending
Speaker 2 00:23:15 No actually right. Act act. We might never be sitting, sitting in the pews. Right. Thinking and judging and gossiping. And like, I don't even have to end up hating our neighbor. Right. Totally.
Speaker 1 00:23:29 But there's no accountability around it. There's there just, we've lost that sense of accountability around it. Not that this needs to happen in a shaming way, because I think when you're really actually addressing sin and you're actually repenting, there is no shame there when you understand Jesus this on the cross, there is no shame there. Um, it's actually freeing there's there where shame lives is where sin is hidden. Right. That's when shame starts to fester is when you have that sin, but it's hiding and you know, it's hiding and you know that at any moment, it could be revealed in, in a horrific way. Right. Um, uh, and this is what we see happen all the time in the church. Um, big leaders where all of a sudden it's like, Whoa,
Speaker 2 00:24:11 That person really, you know,
Speaker 1 00:24:13 And, and it's like, well, yeah, all of us, really, all of us, every single one of us, really, if we're not addressing it, if we're not, if we're not in accountability for it, if we're not daily repenting of it and daily asking for, um, for, for Christ's help to redeem it, restore it. And, uh, and, and change its direction, change our direction. Like you talked about from that, um, facing toward that old life to repenting and facing toward Christ.
Speaker 2 00:24:42 Yeah. That part was so powerful for me. Like I said, partially, it was like this, this mental hurdle of I'm ready to be in the sanctuary now. And then I was like, dang it, Holly, why did you have to go there? Like you took us to the confessional booth. And it's like, but because I think, I mean, I'm, I'm just jotting down a couple of notes here because I'm like, I've got to remember that, but it's like, because, because we think there's going to be shame associated with the confessional. We anticipate that there's going to be shame. But when, but when we remember who Jesus is, we know that that's not actually true. Um, because he, because he takes, that was that's part of it. Right. He didn't just take our sin. He took our shame onto himself. And so that's part of it. And I think there was this amazing thing that had happened in my life, um, a decade or more ago where it was one of those, like every time I was doing a Bible study and we would have to kind of think about the sin in our lives and think about kind of these secret sins and what are they in all of this stuff.
Speaker 2 00:25:41 And then at one point, one of my very closest girlfriends quoted that same scripture that you have in your book from James to me, and it prompted me. And I said, okay, it's kind of like, it was almost like a spiritual experiment. Like I'm just going to put my money where my mouth is and just say, okay, listen, can we have a conversation? And I just like, Lou just like vomited all of this stuff. You know, the thing that had been the secret stuff on note cards and thing that had been, you know, shoved here and there, we burn it in the, in the youth group bonfires or whatever it was. And I just said, look, I'm, I'm just going to give this a shot. Like, I'm going to say this out loud to you. Something I've never said out loud to anyone. And I will tell you if the Lord did not show himself to be true in that moment. And it was just one of those things. It was not like I was never attempted, again, it wasn't, you know, anything like that, but it was just like this, this mysterious power of being able to share that with someone else and the rest of that versus for our healing, right? Not like this superstitious magical, like you click your fingers, but there's, but there's a healing work that begins with that confessional and with absolute to be able to say it out loud to someone else.
Speaker 1 00:26:55 Absolutely. When it's met with mercy, right. When you experienced that mercy, um, there's, there is something so healing in that. I mean, that's kind of the definition of grace, right? You experienced that grace and then that grace empowers you to go and live a whole new life that grace empowers you to, to step into your true identity in Christ. Um, you know, I think there's so much power in that and, and have seen that same thing in my own life as well. And it's funny because I think, yeah, I see, like, there've been times where I've been in sort of, if you ever been in like a public kind of confessional moment where it's like, let's just like call out. What's like blocking us. And, and it's like a room full of Christians and they're like pride.
Speaker 1 00:27:36 I like, okay. Like I love to just like shout out like masturbation in that moment because I'm like, okay, come on. People like really the worst thing you can come up with is pride. Like overworking people pleasing. I'm like either y'all are just crazy Holy or you have literally never struggled with the things that like humanity struggles with like lying or like lust or, I mean, these things that are like really, really true for a lot of humans and maybe I'm wrong. And like Christians, they're just like awesome at life. But every time I'm like really people pleasing, that's it?
Speaker 2 00:28:16 I mean, you guys can't see this, I'm, I'm thankful, but I'm like about to fall out of my chair here because yes, yes. And amen. Because I've been in those things and I did not scream out masturbation, but maybe next time, you know,
Speaker 1 00:28:29 Not, maybe not,
Speaker 2 00:28:32 I like thinking about the job interview, like, you know, what do you struggle with the most? Well, I'm just too good of a person. I just worked too hard. I just, you know, I just worked too hard. I just have too much integrity. And you're like, eh, okay.
Speaker 1 00:28:46 They asked you exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:28:51 No, no. I mean, the last critiques my coworkers had of me was that I was just too awesome at my job. And I'm like, this is not what we're here for. This is not you're for, like, we've got to be, we've got to name it. Like we talked about before, like we've got to name it and be in that space. Um, but something else that, that struck me when I was reading your book, besides the fact that I was like, okay, Holly, I want to get to the sanctuary. And you made me go to the confessional first, but it's, it's this, um, you talk about this powerful juxtaposition of being in the basement versus being in the pews in the sanctuary. And so I feel like we might have skipped over this a little bit. And so maybe if you can tell a little bit of, of your, part of the story of how, what brought you to the basement and, um, and then, and then it's, you know, at some point I do want to talk about that, like what's happening in the church right now. Um, and, and, and how our lives in the pews don't necessarily align with, um, with the lives of, of those of us in the basement. So, um, I accidentally threw a lot out there at you, but, um, when we talk about the basement, we talk about the 12 steps. Can you just, um, talk about a little bit about that part of your story?
Speaker 1 00:30:08 Yeah. So, um, on February 10th of 2001, that day that we talked about that was sealed in the heavens. I, um, I was homeless at the time I'd been kicked out by my trafficker and I was on the floor of a public bathroom and just, um, and said three words. I said, God helped me. And that night I ended up meeting someone who got me into a recovery program. Um, and it was the next day that we went to that, that meeting together for the first time. And it was in the basement of a church. And, um, you know, I walk up to the church building with him and, and we were about to go in and I was like, Oh gosh, this thing's gonna burn down. When I walk in, this is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. But he took me down these side steps and we went into the stingy moldy, um, you know, basement room.
Speaker 1 00:30:54 Um, and it had, uh, it had a smelly coffee pot in the corner and it had some metal folding chairs in a circle. And it had these canvases on the wall with the 12 steps and the 12, 12 traditions on them. And, uh, and it was dark and it, it smelled funny and I was very comfortable there because I was dark. And I smelled funny. I mean, I had, you know, I was homeless at the time. I had whiskey stains down the front of my shirt. Um, it was this, I was wearing this light blue sweater and it had like these dark Brown stains down the front of it. And I knew I smelled. Um, but yet I walked into this room and this overwhelming welcome happened where, um, you know, he introduced me to a couple people and they hugged me and they said, welcome.
Speaker 1 00:31:40 We're so glad you're here. And, um, you know, and then they said, ah, there's coffee over there. And would you like a cookie? And, and then gave me, uh, they gave me free cookies. And I was, I mean, I was homeless. Like, this was like, are you serious? And they had these stale chips in the corner. And I was like, I like this, these stale chips away were life. They were life itself. I couldn't believe someone was willing to give me free food. They didn't ask anything of me. Um, and I, you know, and then I, I, I felt this love and this welcome, they didn't care that I smelled, no one was trying to kick me out. They seemed grateful. I was there. And so I sat in one of those metal folding chairs and, um, and someone started talking and they told a story just like mine.
Speaker 1 00:32:21 They told a story about how, um, how alcohol and drugs had taken everything from them. And they ended up crying out to God. And then they ended up there and then the next person shared, and they talked about how alcohol and drugs had taken everything from them. And then they cried out to God and they ended up there. And then the next shared that he said that alcohol and drugs had taken everything from them and they cried out to God and then they were there and then the next person shared. And they were like, I don't believe in God, but I'm here. You know? And it was like, no one said like, Oh, get out of here. Like, it was like, keep coming back, you know? And then the next person shared and said, I cried out to God. And I ended up here and, and every single person had their own story right there.
Speaker 1 00:32:58 I mean, we're talking every different age, every different socioeconomic background, every different ethnicity. Um, you know, just the, the, the most variety in a room you could possibly imagine. Right. But every single person had this one thing in common that, that we'd all suffered. And that we'd all kind of said, okay, maybe, maybe God, I guess I'll try it. And, and that was working and they were all sober and they were finding hailing and every single person was going around the room and saying that their life was different today and that they had found hope and that they'd found that they'd found healing and that they found this new life. And I felt hope for the first time. And so, you know, I like to, to share that because, um, because I also many years later, uh, ended up in, uh, the sanctuary ended up in the pews later.
Speaker 1 00:33:48 And from the very first people I met, I experienced, um, uh, ah, this is going to sound bad because I love God's church where his bride, where his bride. And I love the church. And I, I love the church so much that I want better for the church than where we're at right now, but I experienced so much judgment. I experienced so much gossip. I experienced so much, um, Oh, that person doesn't have the right theology. So they're out. Um, Oh, that person send in this way. So they're out, uh, I experienced so much, um, um, just hiding of the truth, um, hiding of what's really going on to try to appear like everything's okay. And then those things are those sins coming out in horrific ways where it's like, wait, he, like, he molested all the kids in our youth program. I mean, you know, like horrific things where it's like, wow, like was no, was he not talking to anyone about this?
Speaker 1 00:34:45 Was there anyone walking with him? What about a small group? What about his wife? What about his friends? Like was no one talking to him? Like how, how did this, how did we get that far? You know? Cause, cause what I'd experienced in the basement, what I experienced in that recovery community is everyone had an accountability person when anyone started to like slip or like not come to the meetings enough, like they'd kind of get, you know, like called out for it. And still to this day, I still am part of this recovery community, by the way, I'm also part of the church, but I still go to these recovery meetings. Um, they're on zoom right now instead of invasive <inaudible> and just leave it open in the pantry.
Speaker 1 00:35:23 Like you grab your coffee, so we'll get excited by the cookies too. I'm not even joking. I'm like, what's the cookie spread like right now? Yes. Because those cookies gave me, why are you finding that was like how I ate. That was like, how lived, you know? But there were no free cookies on the pews. I mean, it was like, you know, you have to like go to the fancy cafe and like buy a coffee. But anyway, I think like the, my heart is that, um, is that we would look to the basement for what, for what they're doing. Right. And I think what they're doing right is confession of sin, um, and confession of a need for God and true open vulnerability with a group of people. Not that you need to be open and vulnerable with everyone, but everyone needs to be open and vulnerable with someone.
Speaker 1 00:36:09 And I've just seen such radical healing happen day in and day out there. You know, the story, my story is like, so like people, when they hear my story in the church, they're like, Oh my gosh, it's so amazing. Tell us everything. How dirty was the floor? How good is God? You know? And, and that's great. Yes. My story is beautiful. God is beautiful. But my story is literally one of thousands, if not millions of the exact same story in the basement. And I love going to the basement and telling my story because people are like, cool. Yeah, me too. You know, there's no like, wow. I mean, because it's, it's all our stories. And, and yet at the same time there is this collective. Wow. Because we're seeing miracle after miracle after miracle take place. And then in the pews it's like people are maybe sort of believing that a miracle could happen, but yet not really because they haven't seen it. Um, maybe they haven't seen it in their own life or they haven't seen it enough and you know, the lives of people around them. So that's my heart is that, um, that we would start to look at the basement and say like, how do we bring that spirit of the base
Speaker 2 00:37:13 Right up to the sanctuary. And, and do you think that part of it, I'm just, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here when you're telling that, um, do you think that part of it is that so many of us haven't named our own struggles. We haven't named our own sins and we feel like they're mundane or something like that. And so the people in the pews, like who have never been in the basement, don't realize what a miracle it is that they're walking with God. Um, because each of us finding God, God finding each of us is a miracle. Yeah. Like if I have, if I have never taken a sip of alcohol, that's a miracle that God's still saved me a center, you know? Um, just because that wasn't my struggle or my struggle looked different. And I think sometimes maybe we just, um, we don't name our struggles.
Speaker 2 00:38:13 Um, I think, I think we chat about this a little bit before that sometimes in the, in the church they're kind of too, there's like a binary option either. You were like, um, like a really good PK your whole life. And you know, we're going to grow up as a goody two shoes and that's your story and that's, and that's your testimony. That's great. Or it looks more like yours where you can see, um, you didn't know who Jesus was, um, growing up and, and he radically saved you out of a life that looked very, very different than the life of a lot of people who grew up in the pews. But, um, those are, those are two ends of a spectrum, um, that we all represent and, um, and it's all beautiful. Um, and, and I love how, um, you kind of alluded to it in your book when you talk about the story that Jesus tells of the tax collector and the Pharisee. Um, I don't know. Do you want to talk about how that story impacted you and how those verses, um, impacted you when you started reading through the gospels?
Speaker 1 00:39:22 I mean, I think what I, what did I notice the most about the gospels was this overarching, um, you know, Jesus meeting with the centers and saying here's a new life. And then Jesus meeting with the religious and saying, you're missing it, you're missing it, you're missing it. And, you know, and I think like what, what I, as you talk about the, you know, the, these two, this, the dichotomy of like, there's like the pastor's kids and then there's the redeemed ones. Right. Well, I know a lot of messy, middlers absolutely like, you know, like they've like known Jesus their whole life, but then they also like drank and had sex in college, but then they like were redeemed from that, but then they like suck at marriage sometimes. And then, and then they like, and then they're like, you know, they live in kind of this angry political spirit a lot, but then they're like, wait, but Jesus, and you know, I mean, this is like most Christians, right, right.
Speaker 1 00:40:18 Absolutely. Right. It's this messy, these messy middlers. And, and, and where is the place for that to say like, okay, you, this is what this looks like to walk out a lifetime with him. And I think it's like, it's constantly going between the tax collector and the Pharisee. Right. Like, and I even do this today. It's like today on, at any given moment, I could be very much like a tax collector. And at any given moment, I could be very much like a Pharisee. And at any given moment, I need rebuke from Jesus or healing from Jesus. And so I think as we live in that dichotomy, we have to make space for kind of both. Right. And, and when you talk about like the sins that, that we might struggle with daily, you know, I joke about like pride people, pleasing, you know, all those things, but like pride, full grown w is leads to death. People pleasing, full grown leads to lies that lead to death. Every sin full-grown leads to death, right? Lust, full grown leads to death. These sins full-grown lead to death. And so I think we have to remember that all sin, however, small, it might be gossip, Oh my gosh, that leads to so much death, you know? And yet it's this, these sort of small, acceptable sins in the church that are, that are leading people on this March toward, and
Speaker 2 00:41:34 Yet we're not addressing them at their infancy stage because they're not killing us. And it's really easy to address a sin when you're like homeless on a bathroom floor, like, Oh, okay. Yeah. I think I'm an addict. I think I need help. How do we address a sin of anger and control when, when you're, when it's not killing you so that it can, um, so that, so that you can heal of it before it gets to the point where it kills your marriage, or it kills your ministry, or it, it kills your spirit, or it hurts your children. Right. How do we address those things before they get there? And I think it is a matter of, of that, um, remembering that we're at any given moment, we're, we're either a Pharisee or a tax collector, but there's a little bit of both of us, a little bit of both in, in all of us.
Speaker 2 00:42:22 Yeah. Oh, thank you for that. That that's, um, I think it's also in James and now it's going to escape me, but you can tell him what I like. I like it too, but I'm like, I think it's in James where, where they do, he really does talk about that exact thing of this being full grown. Right. Well, when this full grown brings death, and I remember getting this picture, um, a couple of years ago when I was reading through that and it did just, it kind of hit me and you, you described it so well of it's like we have to catch these things in their infancy. Right. And, and those of us who are parents, we can see the development of a child. Right. And we can say the 12 year old is not doing the same things that a 12 month old is doing, because there is maturation that takes place.
Speaker 2 00:43:09 And there is discipleship that takes place. There is physical growth that takes place. Right? There's all of this kinds of things that are taking place. And so that doesn't mean, you know, like, you're it, I would say, it's not that gossip is not deadly because it is deadly, but we can feed the gossip and disciple the gossip and see that the gossip comes to maturation where it will kill us, or we can starve it. Right. And, and you just like, just put that so beautifully. And I love how you say yes, in all of us. There is that tendency, there is Pharisee in all of us in the same day, as there is tax collector in all of us in the same day. And I think that one of the things that I love about that portion that I think it's, I think it's like 18, but is the very next chapter is where we see as IKEAs.
Speaker 2 00:44:03 And that, that literally just hit me. Like, I'm like, I know, yes, I've been reading the Bible, but that just hit me like maybe last month where I was like, Oh, dear Jesus tells this amazing story about the fairs and the tax collector. And then boom, you get Ikea's. And he says, I'm coming to your house. Right? He's like, I am inviting myself in, I am coming to your house. I am going to let you host me and we're going to talk and we're going to have a conversation. And through that love Zacchaeus was totally transformed. And he did exactly what you talk about in the 12 steps. He realized these are the people I've hurt. He named them. He went back and he gave restitution and he continued. That was one of the cool things. We had this discussion in my Greek class recently of the verb that's used when he talks about, I will give four times as much.
Speaker 2 00:44:54 Like there is this discussion in the world of it being like a continual thing that defined his character. Like, that's one of these like beautiful things about Greek verbiage. I don't know enough. I don't even know enough to be dangerous, but it was this discussion. Our professor was leading us through of saying, this is in that same form of it. Wasn't just something he did once. It was a repetitive thing that began to define his character potentially. And that is what you talk about, um, in this process of recovery, um, is exactly what Zach Husted. And so, um, just kind of feels like some of those things are going, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:45:30 I've never noticed that before, but you're right. So he has basically did the 12 steps. I'm going to use that. I love it. He totally did. I, I didn't, I, I don't speak Greek. Um, but I, but I love that you talk about though, is that the very next chapter is the key is, and when I came to Christ, I, so I did not go into a church. I actually read the Bible. Um, and it, and I took about a year and a half just, um, reading through the entire Bible before I ever showed up in a church. I actually didn't know that everyone there had not already read it. I was like, why would you give yourself to a religion before you've read the book? Like, that's, um, you know, like I was like, that's kind of culty. Like, why would you just trust somebody else?
Speaker 1 00:46:10 Like you should read the book before you show up there. That's just like, that should be like a requirement to me, like read the whole book, then show up there and decide whether you want this religion or not, because there's a lot of people who haven't read the book and it shows, but I read the book. I think you should not stop preaching is when I go ahead. But I read the book and I read it like a book because no one told me that it was to be taken piecemeal and that it needed an interpreter and that I needed to know the Greek or anything, you know, like I just read it like a book. I opened it up and I started, I actually started in the new Testament, read the whole new Testament first. And then I went back and I read the old Testament, but I read it like a book.
Speaker 1 00:46:45 Um, and it, and when you read it like a book, it's, it's a story of God's love. It's, uh, it's the greatest love story you've ever read. It's a story of faithfulness. It's a story of commitment. It's a story of going to any lengths, even death to when the love of his people. And, and yet when we, you know, when we, when we pull out pieces of it and, um, and you know, it's so easy to like pull out a little piece and then like weaponize it or use it for our advantage. But when you just read it like a book, there's no other way to interpret the religion that is Christianity. Other than this is a love story. This is a, this is a lover of our soul who deeply wants us whole healed, delivered debt-free and loving him with, with everything in our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Speaker 2 00:47:32 Amen. Holly, I'm wondering if I can put you on the spot and in the few minutes we have left, um, your book definitely was I read it as, as, as a letter to the church. When you say that, I thought, Oh yeah, this, this is, this is for us. Um, but I'm wondering, um, if you could, in the few minutes that we have left, could you just speak a word of encouragement to the church right now? Um, we're recording this in the middle of November before Thanksgiving and, um, not only do we see a country that feels very divided. I feel like we see a church that feels very divided right now. Um, and, and it's just the, the, the, the language that you gave me just now with the, with the tax collector and the Pharisee, when you're saying there, there are times in every part of your day when you need Jesus rebuke and you need Jesus healing. And so I'm wondering if you could, um, if you could speak some of those words to the church right now, for those of us who, who want to hear it, I want to listen.
Speaker 1 00:48:42 Yeah. You know, before we started recording, we were talking about my girls and sanctuary project. And, um, I, um, I love, I love the church. I love God's church. We are his bride. And I deeply believe that the hope of the world is in the church, but I don't feel yet like the church is safe for, um, for the people. It most needs to help. You know, we, we pray all the time for God to save the lost and save the broken and save the center, save the addicts, save the trafficked girls, save the, uh, you know, save the prostitutes, save, save the gang members, save the, you know, every, whatever other, whatever, um, people group. And, and yet we, um, we have not created a place that is a safe landing place for them. Yet we have not created a place that, that has a, a cup of coffee and a stale chips only back in the corner yet.
Speaker 1 00:49:50 And, um, and until the church can be that place, uh, I don't know what to do with these girls. And I, uh, I think what I, what my hope is, and I didn't know I would get emotional, I'm sorry. But I think what my hope is is that, um, that we, as a church could start to look at the world. We want so desperately to save and, and create a place that could actually be a landing place for, for those that, that we want to see, know the love of Jesus, those that need to see the love of Jesus y'all, I would be dead without the love of Jesus and, you know, and it took me, I think I was eight years sober and in the basement before I was ready to walk into a church, um, and even today, it is scary for me to walk into a church, um, because I don't know what spirit I'm going to encounter.
Speaker 1 00:50:43 And there is a spirit in the church that, um, that is, uh, that is fair cynical. That is religious, that does, that does want to shame and divide. Um, that will say that there's, there is a person that's too far gone, or, um, you know, I've had five abortions, I've been called a murderer, a baby killer, you know, and this is like, I know the Lord has forgiven me. I know he has redeemed me. I know what he did on the cross. I know the power of what he took on the cross. And I know there is that he forgave all sin for all mankind for all time. And yet, uh, I need the church to know that before, before it's a place that can welcome the women we work with on a daily basis. Um, you know, literally quite literally we're on a hunt for a church right now that can be a place that could be like a safe landing place for sanctuary project.
Speaker 1 00:51:36 And so I think, you know, I didn't, um, I didn't, I didn't sort of know what, uh, what this word of encouragement was going to be. And I don't know if it's a word of encouragement, um, except that I know people and I know people's hearts. Um, you know, sometimes when we get together as a collective, the church, there's a lot that happens that can be unhealthy, but when we get one-on-one and have conversations, there's a lot of grace and there's a lot of mercy and there's a lot of good that can happen there. And so I just want to trust that there are people, humans, women, men, children, that, that want to see this place, that they want to see this place whole and healed and saved and redeemed, um, that, that they want the church to be the kind of place that not just welcome centers like me like us. Um, but that would actually welcome back Christ because if he showed up, I'm afraid he'd go to the basement because they at least have a cup of coffee and it just chips away for him. And, um, and if, if he showed up dirty, he's not going to feel welcome. And in the church we've built in America today. So, uh, yeah, so I hope that's an encouragement. Um, it's my prayer. It's my, it's my deepest heart's desire that we would see that. And in our lifetime,
Speaker 2 00:52:50 Thank you so much, Holly. It is an encouragement to me, um, because it goes right back to what we started talking about at the beginning, we've got to name it and if we can't name it, then we can't, we can't really fully, um, receive the healing that we need. And Jesus said it best when he said the truth will set you free. And so sometimes the truth is a hard word to hear, but I'm thankful that, um, that you're voicing it. And I'm thankful for the work that you're doing with the women. And I'm thankful that your story end with your redemption,
Speaker 1 00:53:26 Um, that, that you are continuing it through discipleship, which is the great commission. Holly, tell us where we can find more of you and your story and the jewelry and the beautiful, beautiful things that are being made from women who are being redeemed and walking in repentance. Yeah, after that shop sanctuary project
Speaker 3 00:53:49 <inaudible>,
Speaker 1 00:53:55 You can shop sanctuary
[email protected]. You can find us on Instagram at, at sanctuary underscore project. Um, you can find me if you want to see my life, my farm, my husband, my sweet little daughter. We have a one-year-old, um, you can find me at, at Holly Christine Hayes, and then you can shop sanctuary
[email protected] now, which is really exciting. Uh, just search sanctuary project. And we have, uh, a dedicated page there. That'll show up and talk a little bit about our mission and, uh, yeah, that's a great place to get all your, all your holiday gifts and, and tell them this story. If this, if this conversation sparked anything in you, this is a story you can tell by giving a gift from sanctuary project and starting this dialogue with your family. Thank you so much, Holly. I appreciate you and appreciate your time with me today. Thanks Alexis.
Speaker 0 00:54:42 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music, and podcast production by Seth city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit
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Speaker 3 00:54:58 <inaudible>.
