Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay. Hey, so I'm sitting here with my neighbor. I feel like in Texas, Austin, Houston, we're basically neighbors over here. Um, Dr. Michelle Reyes the author of a pretty brand new book at this point of becoming all things, how small changes lead to lasting connections across cultures. Hey, Michelle, thanks so much for coming on today. Well, hello neighbor. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And I feel like we're neighbors, but I've also had the chance to talk to some of your friends in real life.
Speaker 0 00:01:16 Um, Randell treviño was on the show in January and, um, anyway, he was totally fabulous. We, um, our conversation kept getting pushed back, but we ended up chatting right after January 6th. And so it was, uh, yeah, it was a really good, um, an intense conversation. Um, and like you said, you're doing a giveaway prob probably not by the time this airs, but two of your friends books, um Oshida and Terrance Lester, and they've both been on and have incredible books. And then Rachel saying, so this is just so fun. Um, right. So clearly this is, this is where it's happening. This is the podcast I don't know about that, but you guys all said yes, and I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful because the, the conversations that you guys are initiating through your writing and through your speaking and through your message and really all of you, each of you, by telling your own stories and incorporating your own experiences into what the Bible has to say about, you know, X and in, in this case, what does the Bible have to say about these, um, relationships and multicultural church and connection?
Speaker 0 00:02:28 Um, it's just so beautiful. And so, so you guys are, are, uh, you know, initiating these conversations and I'm just so thankful to be a little tiny part of that. Um, I'm just so thankful. So do you mind introducing yourself just a little bit? I feel like I'm going to miss part of it. I would start with AACC if it were me, but you start where you want to start. And just tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now. Yeah, sure. Well, speaking of AACC, uh, you know, Raymond Chang and I are the, co-founders the AACC, the Asian-American Christian collaborative where I serve as vice-president, um, I am second generation Indian American born in South Carolina. I grew up in Minnesota and now am in Austin, Texas where my husband and I are church planters. And so our church is a minority led multicultural church.
Speaker 0 00:03:19 My husband is second generation Mexican-American. Our church is probably about over 50% Latino and then Asian African-American. And then, um, Anglo-American in, in, in those slivers, if you will. And I think in many ways it's a direct representation of our community in east Austin, which is historically segregated, um, and disadvantaged black and brown community. And so that's our, our day job. If you will, of vocational ministry, I have the honor of serving a scholar in residence at hope, which is just a fancy way of saying that my speaking and writing, um, highlights our church and the work that we're doing and is also serves as a resource for our church. Um, but beyond that, I'm the co-executive director for PAX, which is also a Christian nonprofits seeking to promote the peace of Jesus in the 21st century. And I'm a mom of a six-year-old and a two-year-old.
Speaker 0 00:04:12 So, you know, just a little busy these days. And as you, as you mentioned, um, you know, this is actually this week marks the one month birthday, uh, of my book coming out, becoming all things. So it's, it's been a, uh, a full but special past month. Oh my goodness. And with a six year old and a two year old, I'm just going to say like, I, we have, we have four, but our youngest is seven. And so even now, even though six was not that far away, right. Like wasn't that long ago, but six and two feels like a completely different world to me. It's so 11, right? It is. So it's very physical. It's physically, uh, you know, taxing. Yes. Yes. You're just sort of on, on the ground and there's the hot meals and the muster trucks and, uh, far more often than not.
Speaker 0 00:05:01 When I lie down with my son to put him to bed, I'm, I'm out, I'm done. I don't wake up till the morning I leave. That's the season of life we're in. Yes. There is something to be said for that season. I'm telling you it's when you say the physically taxing, I'm like when our youngest could a wipe his own bottom, I mean, that was a game changer, right? Like the whole, our whole world changed. And then it was like this, it sealed the deal when he could buckle himself in his car seat. I'm like, okay, we're done. Like, I, I feel like we got this parenting thing down now, now take on the world. Now we're coming up on preteens with our oldest. So we're going to have a whole other thing, but I'm like, can we just get this small season where everyone can wipe and everyone can buckle.
Speaker 0 00:05:44 That would be great. Um, huge, huge. Yes. And, and the trucks come out less and less often. So, um, that's it. But I mean, I don't know. I feel like that's even kind of a good place to start. We're raising these multi ethnic kids in multicultural spaces, which, I mean, was it, wasn't very different, honestly from how I grew up, but I would say in general kind of in, if I can just say like, in the white evangelical church in America, that environment is really different than where a lot of them grew up, including my, including my husband. Um, he grew up in, in a kind of this monolith of a, of a culture and in rural, you know, Western part of the United States where everybody just kind of looked like him and he was used to that. He was used to everybody who looked like him, even when he went to college, everybody's still kind of looked by Kim.
Speaker 0 00:06:44 And, um, and that makes a difference when we start saying we start thinking probably that, that is kind of what the church kind of looks like. Right. Like it just kind of looks like us. Um, but your book in conjunction with this scripture that you, that you hold is kind of your anchor, maybe, I don't know. I don't know how you would say it, but the, you know, kind of framework of your book, um, just really refutes that idea. So can you talk about like where this came from and the scripture that this book is based upon? Yeah, definitely. So, and, and, and this also comes just from being church planters, um, from being a scholar in residence. My heart is for the church. I wrote this book for the church, uh, as, as, as a resource for the church to be able to live out the biblical vision, uh, you know, of multiculturalism that we see throughout scripture.
Speaker 0 00:07:44 But, uh, especially in revelation seven nine, where there is a multiethnic multicultural multi-lingual body of Christ around the throne of God worshiping him in every tongue, tribe and nation. And that not only is that beautiful, uh, but it's a powerful statement because this is in the new heavens and the new earth, right? And we are always praying the Lord's prayer, you know, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And that's the heavenly reality that heaven really heavenly reality is a multi-ethnic body for all eternity, which, which means our cultural identities don't go away. Um, and, and that there is spiritual significance in them. And so if that's the vision of the future that we should be living into now, um, how, how can we, how can we pursue this actively? Not just sort of like, oh, it accidentally happened or, or, or wishful thinking that, you know, okay, we'll just get a whole bunch of people that look different together in a room.
Speaker 0 00:08:46 And we'll call that multiculturalism, you know, there is an intentional pursuit. Um, and I, you know, the way in which we do this, I think the, the, the journey toward it is where first Corinthians nine, 19 through 23 comes in. And that is, as you said, uh, the foundation of, of, of my entire book. And, um, this is where they possible. Paul says to the Jew, I became like a Jew to win the Jews to those, not under the law. And he's meaning Gentiles, Greeks. You know, I, I became, uh, like those not under the law to when those not under the law. And he goes on to say, I became all things to all people, uh, for the sake of the gospel. And so this is powerful because it is this, this call to Christians to, to learn how to adapt and conform, uh, I mean, adapt and transform that conform, transform who we are to accommodate others, um, in, in, in, in ways that don't demand that people come to us, that don't demand that people be like us act like us look like us to, to, to fit in.
Speaker 0 00:09:54 Um, it, it's a way in which we truly see each person has made in the image of God and to be willing to embrace the differences, the awkwardness, even maybe the uncomfortability that come when we're all together. Um, but our vision is, is, is, is worshiping God together. And that, and that's truly what unity and diversity is all about anyways. And so my book seeks to provide a theological framework for understanding culture, uh, and race in scripture and, and practical steps of how the church can live into that and, and, and truly experience the fuller blessing that comes when we can really, uh, love all of our neighbors well and live together, uh, in that messiness of, of different cultures. Yeah. In your, um, thank you for sharing that, um, in your introduction, I think it was, you use the term that kind of like, um, I thought, oh, I, I kind of wonder what she means by that.
Speaker 0 00:10:55 And I think that as, as you, as you go throughout the book, we can kind of see that, but, but you, but you bring it up. And the question is because you're talking about, you know, transforming and, and, and becoming all things, and the term you use is to be culturally adaptable. Like, what does that mean? And what does that look like? Living that out in real life, that cultural adaptability. Yeah. That's, that's so good. Uh, well first let me, let me, uh, set some definitions down when I'm talking about cultural identity, I'm using terms that, uh, anthropologists use today, uh, you know, Dr. Brian Howe at Wheaton college, uh, he talks about cultural identity in this way that namely, that cultural identity are the narratives born from our ethnic heritages. So this, this goes far beyond just what we wear, what we eat, what, uh, holidays we celebrate.
Speaker 0 00:11:52 I mean, those are outward expressions of cultural identity, certainly, but cultural identities begin inside of us in the way we view the world. But we, what we think is important, what we value, um, it's, it's our understanding of, of who we are and how we're supposed to make our way through the world, what it means to be a good person. Those are the stories and narratives passed down to us from our family and our community. And so what this is really getting at is different worldviews, uh, and, and so to become culturally adaptable, isn't just like, okay, now I need to learn to like sushi. That's not what I'm, you know, thankfully, cause that's never going to happen for me. I mean, certainly loving your neighbor was learning to try new things, start writing, right. Uh, but to become culturally adaptable first begins with that willingness or at least that realization that people, people think differently than me, people of other cultures view the world differently.
Speaker 0 00:12:51 Uh, and, and, and not to see that as a threat, but to actually value those different view views and those different ideas, and to say, okay, I want to learn from you. I want to better understand how you see the world, how you experienced the world. That's important to me because you're my neighbor, you're a fellow image-bearer, um, I, I want to learn from that. I want to even have my own worldview expanded because of that. Um, and I think too often people in general, but we see this in Christians in particular, we have such a knee jerk reaction to drawing sharp lines in the sand. And you're either for us or against us, right? Like you're either on my team or you're my enemy. There's just these, uh, we fear difference, different scares us. Um, and, and so this is a really good calling for us because if we're truly going to become culturally adaptable, it's going to require humility.
Speaker 0 00:13:49 It's going to be, it's going to require a posture of, of, of being a student. Um, and to say this isn't right or wrong, it's just right or left. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's not right or wrong. It's just different. And that's good because the more I learn to see the world through my neighbor's eyes, the more I'm going to see one C see a different, uh, and, and bigger understanding of God, you know, it's going to open up my understanding of who, who God is, but even more. So, uh, this is what's going to help me understand their realities of pain. Um, the, the ways in which they've experienced oppression and injustice, uh, and, and, and hopefully that proximity is going to lead to empathy, which is going to lead to action. And so the more we care, uh, the more we know like Maya Angelou says, uh, hopefully the better we'll do.
Speaker 0 00:14:42 So that's the heart behind that when, and I would like for you to take us like a step further in, and kind of where you open the book, not the introduction, but the first chapter, because as you're talking, um, you know, about expanding and worldview and things like that, I'm like, but this isn't a threat to our Christianity. Right. Um, it's certainly not a threat to Jesus, but it's not a threat to how we relate to one another. Um, but sometimes it can feel that way, too. Um, those of us who were inside the church, um, especially when we start using the terms that you're talking about, that, that the anthropologists use, you know, like, like worldview and culture and things like that, because we start to say, but I don't even know, like, but as Christians, we have this worldview right. Or something like that.
Speaker 0 00:15:46 And so when we start to kind of splinter off of that, or it feels like we're splintering off of that sometimes. Um, that's that just kind of the word that keeps coming to my mind is that it can feel a little bit threatening. Right. Um, and so I don't want to place that word on the story, but I would like it, if you could tell the story about the picnic with your college friends that you put in the book, because man, so much of that like resonated with me. Um, so do you mind retelling that for sure, for sure. Yeah. I mean, we were with, with friends, uh, old college friends, you know, people that, that we had known for over a decade, you know, they're, they're, they're good friends and, and, and, uh, it's fun to now be in that place where we were all married and we have young kids and, uh, we were having a picnic and our kids were playing and we had been talking about all sorts of different, uh, topics and content out of the blue.
Speaker 0 00:16:44 Uh, the husband, you know, looked over at me and was like, Michelle, I just, I just really want to ask you why this question has been bothering me, like, okay, what's been bothering you. And he's, he, he shared something with me that I've actually heard many people share with me before. And it's this, um, confusion and a little bit of frustration of like, why do you have to talk about culture so much? Um, and, and, you know, he quoted Galatians 3 28 and, and basically said, you know, we're supposed as Christians. We're supposed to focus on the fact that we're one in Christ and we're supposed to be pursuing unity, you know? And, and he felt that people like me and other Christians of color, that he had seen online, that every time we talk about culture or race, or even racism, you know, any of those topics that we're just being divisive, uh, we're making people feel guilty, uh, or, or, or even, or even just that our priorities are in the wrong place, that this is not biblically, what we should be prioritizing as Christians.
Speaker 0 00:17:48 And so, you know, I didn't get angry. I, I do know there's a lot of fellow Christians of color that they're just, they're exhausted. It's so hard to have these conversations. Cause you're, you're on the defense of you're. You're trying to explain yourself, um, to somebody who certainly doesn't understand where you're coming from. I mean, talking about cultural adaptability, right? Like has no clue how you see and experience the world, uh, and, and is interrogating you to, to, to prove, prove to me why I should care about what you have to say. Um, I don't know if it's because I'm an Enneagram eight. I don't know if it's just my personality. Um, I, for the most part, unless I know this person is like an open racist, who's just common for me. I really do enjoy having these conversations because like I said, my, my, my heart is for the church, my heart.
Speaker 0 00:18:44 I'm not, I'm not on that bandwagon of, of cancel culture. I'm not on that bagging bandwagon of, of burning everything down. Like my heart is for the church to grow and to strengthen and to pursue reconciliation. And we can't do that if we're all throwing in the towel and walking away and saying, you figure it out on your own, you know what I mean? And so I was hesitant, but, but, uh, uh, happy to, to, to move forward in the conversation. And, you know, I just, I started telling both the husband and the wife about just, Hey, you know, we are very different people. And, and, and so often there is this assumption that, that, that the way I live my life, but I've experienced this the same as you. Uh it's. And it's one of the reasons why, when I talk about things like racism, so many white Christians, they get upset because they're like, I haven't experienced that.
Speaker 0 00:19:36 That's not true in my life. Therefore it doesn't exist or therefore it must be so isolated. And so out of the normal, that it's really not that important to bring up in the first place. And so I'm just trying to tell them about it. You know, we're very different people. We have very different experiences. I see the world very differently from you. Um, and, you know, while I know that now Indian food has become very trendy and, and, and, and maybe it's cool to wear an Indian shirt or like, let's watch an Indian movie together. Like people are more open to that. But if I say here, let me, let me talk about Asian-American theology, or let me talk about Indian theology. And, and let's talk about how that cuts against the grain of Western theology, for example, or let's talk about how I view leadership and my understanding of honoring our elders and how that translates to pastoral authority.
Speaker 0 00:20:34 Um, you know, and, and, and, and all of those sorts of things, that's when the discomfort comes. And it's like, ah, I don't know if I want that. And so, you know, the, the conversation kind of came to an impasse because they just, they weren't convinced that what I was saying about my life and about their lives, they weren't convinced about it. And, and they were just sort of like, no, um, you know, we just, let's just focus on Christ. Let's just focus on the gospel. And I felt like, okay, that's it. That didn't go as I was hoping it would. Um, but I think that's, that's a conversation that, that story that, yeah, that story actually happened, but it's, it's such a representation of so many conversations I've had, um, with, with, with folks. And so, yeah, I, I, I, I'm trying to land the plane here.
Speaker 0 00:21:26 I, I think, um, that's for so many people, particularly when they say things like, I don't see color, I just see you. I think it's very important, uh, to, to understand that when, when I hear, or when people of color say, I don't see color, I just see you, or let's not focus on culture or race. Let's just focus on, um, what we have in common. What, what I'm hearing is I don't want to hear your pain. I don't want to know about the experiences that have hurt you. Um, I don't want to know if my white culture is complicit in any of these, uh, experiences of pain, either. Like let's just focus on what we have in common, what's encouraging and uplifting. Uh, and, and so I appreciate the way author Adrian pay, um, and the minority experience. He talks about how the minority experience is emotional realities of pain. Um, so if we really want to be United and have that harmony as the body of Christ, we need to truly see color. We need to truly see people and make space for that pain, uh, because that's really the only path that's going to be able to help us move forward with, with healing and true reconciliation. Right. I I'll just tell you, praise God for Instagram eights. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:22:47 My husband is an Enneagram mate, and so I haven't always thought that as much, but for Indian roommates, um, because I'm a six. And so I have a little slightly different, you know, on some of that interactions on some of that. But, um, I think you're right. I think that's one of the reasons I wanted you to share that story is because it is so representative. And, and when you say, you know, when I hear that I hear, um, I don't, you know, you don't want me to talk about my pain. I don't want to hear your pain. And, and, and I, I resonate with that. And I appreciate you saying that what I kept hearing, especially with the, can we just focus on the gospel? Right. Is can we just, I'm like, it's, it's this idea, um, that a lot of times white Christians can't see, what can we just focus on the gospel?
Speaker 0 00:23:41 I kind of see in parentheses, can we focus on the white normative gospel please? Right. Like, this is, you know, this is what it is. Um, and this is probably because coming off of reading your book and then a week's worth of homework of reading things from the new interpreter's Bible commentary on, you know, you know, the Bible through the African-American lens, Asian American lens, native American lens, right. All of these things, and I'm going, these are so beautiful, right? Like these, these lenses with which each of us see the gospel is so beautiful. And when we say we're, when we hear from white Christians, can we just talk about Jesus? Can we just focus on the gospel often? What I hear is, and I don't even think they know they're saying it. And so I don't believe it's malicious, but what I often hear is can we focus on the white normative gospel?
Speaker 0 00:24:28 Can we focus on the gospel that Western theology told us? Um, it was right. Um, which, um, which anyway, which, which, which isn't how most of the world's Christians see the gospel, right? It's, it's just, anyway, it's just not, is why it's so important for anyone who identifies as white, anyone who identifies as Anglo-American to lean into and develop their cultural identity, uh, you know, it's, so, I mean, the sand, this is a prideful way, but it's so easy for me to understand my lens through which I interpret scripture, because I am firmly grounded in who I am as a cultural image bear. I understand, uh, the ways in which I am shaped as an Indian American woman, I understand the ways in which my social location and my experiences of pain, experiences of marginalization, how'd that. And even as, as an Asian, my communal identity, uh, you know, the things like eating together, uh, and, and, and respect for elders, like I'm always on high radar for that in scripture, that always sticks out to me.
Speaker 0 00:25:39 So I'm very much conscious of the fact that I am a second generation Indian American woman, and I read the Bible through that lens. And so I think it's so important for anybody, but including white Christians to lean into and develop their cultural identity so that they can have a better understanding, um, that their faith is not our cultural, that they are bringing a very specific cultural lens to the scripture text, uh, based on their experiences, based on perhaps even their lack of experiences of marginalization and pain. Um, and, and, and to be aware of that and, and to be aware, oh, and I don't, I, I'm not trying to make people feel guilty, but just even experiences of privilege and power, how, how you bring that as a lens to the texts and the impacts, which characters you're drawn to, it impacts which, uh, you know, which, which, uh, sort of themes and motifs, uh, and lessons are being drawn out.
Speaker 0 00:26:39 Um, and, and, and who you relate to the most. So, uh, and that's not, it's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. It's just becoming aware so that we don't have this, this is what the theology is as this is the core, this is the center. Um, which really sometimes what we mean by that is white, you know, north American, Western theology, and then here's, Asian-American theology and African-American and Latino American theology on the peripherals. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's just, we have to do that. So we understand what lens we're bringing to scripture, because we all have a lens. We all have a cultural interpretive lens. Right. And I, I think you're, you're spot on, on that, that that's part of it is recognizing that you do have a lens that as a white Christian, you do have a lens and that, that lens, it is a lens it's not objectivity.
Speaker 0 00:27:30 Right. And it's not normativity, um, in that, you know, this, like you said, we're not, we're not centering that this is theology with a capital T and then everyone else gets this other it's this other stuff. But, um, but there's some discomfort there. There's kind of, there's kind of that woven through. I told you before we started recording, every time I started feeling uncomfortable when I was reading your book, which happened so morning, it's amazing. There will be moments of discomfort. Right? You bring it back with your compassion and your vulnerability. Yes. And now that I know that your Indian grand made, I'm like, you didn't shy away from that and saying you did it on purpose, but I'm just saying, I know, but you did. So there's some discomfort there. And I do want you to talk about that a little bit, but I kind of want to go back even, you know, talking about that, but also talking about, you know, you corrected yourself when you're talking about conformity.
Speaker 0 00:28:26 And one of the things I was thinking is, as we're having this discussion about theology and culture and all of this stuff, we're not asking for, like, for, uh, for a conformity. And I guess really even like theologically or culturally, right. We're not asking that everyone just look the same in both of those, but also that difference in both of those doesn't necessarily mean wrong in both of them. I don't know, but take us, take us there if you will. Yeah, absolutely. I, and I think this is something that people get hung up on, right? It's like we have one faith, one God, one baptism, and they're like, you know, so, so anything cultural just has to be this, this outer clothing, this outer manifestation for the singular faith that we all hold to, if you will. And so even talking about cultural lenses, get some people labeled as heretics.
Speaker 0 00:29:28 Right. Uh, and so I think it's, we have to be very careful about what we're talking about when we're discussing things like theological conformity, cultural conformity, um, because so long we have treated Western theology as a standard rubric for Christian dogma, uh, and, and any other writing or theology by Christians from the rest of the world, the global south is, is ancillary. It's less important. Um, and, and, and so when Christians of color, when, when Asian Christians, African Christian begin theologizing in ways that don't conform to Western standards, we're labeled as dangerous. Uh, we're, we're disinvited from conferences where we get our interviews canceled. Um, and so we have to be very careful what we mean by theological conformity. Are we talking about upholding creedal affirmations? You know, that this is what the Nicene creed, a spouses about the Trinity and, and, and our faith, or are we talking about upholding a specific brand of white Christianity?
Speaker 0 00:30:25 Because those are two very different conversations. Um, and what we see in the life of Jesus, the apostle, Peter and Paul, uh, and the early churches that there were, there was a lot that they were willing to compromise for the sake of the gospel. I think about the apostle Paul who shaves his head, um, who, who seeks to connect and, and, and honor this group of folks who are following a Nat Nazarene vow. And this is not something that Paul had to do. Uh, you know, it's like Christ died already. Like we don't need to be holding to these vows anymore. And yet he, he, he, uh, participates in some of their cultural practices as a way in which to assure them, to affirm them. Um, I mean, that's crazy. If you think about that for a second, for us to do something that could go against what we hold to be true for the sake of the gospel.
Speaker 0 00:31:19 I mean, that's a little mind boggling. Um, but then you think about how he, he, he began to eat formerly forbid and meats. He encouraged some folks to be circumcised and others not to be circumcised. Uh, you know, he knew how to theologically debate with the religious leaders in the synagogue. And he knew how to philosophize with the Greeks and the public square. I mean, this was a man who truly lived out what he said in first Corinthians nine of becoming all things to all people. Um, and Jesus eats with folks who the religious elites deemed as unworthy. He healed people on the Sabbath, like, you know, they're like, uh, you know, the law doesn't like, this is not what the law says you're supposed to do. And Jesus is, is expanding our understanding of what the law of Christ even is. And so, um, I think if we compared the life of Jesus and Paul and the early church to our, our, uh, churches today, I think we would realize, or we should realize there's a lot of practices, uh, and ideologies that we hold on too tightly, that we shouldn't, uh, you know, there's Hills that we are willing to die on, that we shouldn't.
Speaker 0 00:32:28 And whether that's the issue perhaps of alcohol, uh, women in leadership, or even eating certain foods and someone else's home, you know, the list could go on in terms of the controversial issues of the day. We need to challenge ourselves once again, to consider what truly is the law of Christ, what isn't, uh, and, and what cultural flexibility looks like in that moment to love our neighbors, because nothing less than our biblical witness is at stake in these situation. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's so true. I think about like, you know, the, the scandal of Jesus, right? Like even, even I was just reading about him, you know, going to eat with Zacchaeus, right. I mean, this is, this is stupid. He should not have done that. Right. Culturally, that was, that was not the smartest cultural move. Right. If he was, if, but, but it's like, but for the sake of the gospel, right.
Speaker 0 00:33:23 Um, for the sake of the gospel and, and really clarifying in our own hearts and minds, what is that? What, what is the gospel and what is peripheral, you know, um, to that, um, yeah. And, and, and how, and how that looks in our everyday lives. Because I think that, like, Paul, I don't think Paul was the only one called right. To live that way. Like, we're also all believers. Right. We're also called to do that. Um, so kind of, kind of switching gears a little bit and, and going back to even you talking about being really comfortable with who you are, um, oh my goodness. There's, there's so many things I want to ask and I just don't know that we're going to get to them all, but one of them, I do want you to talk about kind of in that respect is, um, you talk about code switching in your book.
Speaker 0 00:34:20 Um, and so, so when we get there, I'll say first, maybe I'll ask you to kind of define that because there are probably some people listening who are not like super familiar or super confident that they know what that term actually means. Um, but just even talking about this, becoming comfortable with our own selves, culturally, um, and then kind of rethinking, what does that look like in everyday life? So it's almost, I feel like it's almost like the reciprocal of Paul, right? Like he's kind of willing to go and do and become when it comes to other cultures, but there's also a reciprocal side that's equally as important, right. Of, of owning who we are and our cultural expressions and being okay to bring our selves, um, to, to the communities that we encounter. So I don't know. I hope I didn't flip that up too badly, but go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:35:13 You're, you're spot on, I think color code switching in its most generic form is like putting your best foot forward. And it's something that in many ways we all do in different contexts. And when you think about, uh, when you, when you meet somebody and you start dating somebody, and you're just, you're trying to present the best image of yourself as humanly possible, because you want that person to like you, uh, the same thing in a job interview, uh, you know, you're trying to sound as smart as you can, or as, as skilled or as talented as possible, uh, you're putting your best foot forward. Right. Uh, and, and in some ways, hiding maybe some of your flaws hiding some of those quirks, um, because you want somebody to like you, um, in, in some certain circumstances in and of itself, that's not a bad thing.
Speaker 0 00:36:04 Uh, but, but when it comes to historically disempower people, when it comes to people of color code, switching ends up becoming this way in which we tell ourselves, okay, if we want people to like us our, to, to put our best foot forward is to act white. Um, and, and what this, what this ends up, that the things that we hide ends up being our cultural identities, uh, that the stories and the values that we hold, dear, the things that we, that we love about our family and our communities, we end up hiding those, or, or even repressing those aspects of ourselves so that we can fit into particularly majority white spaces. And so, um, I am in one of my chapters, in my book, chapter four, I talk about rethinking what it means to code switch for historically disempowered people. And exactly, as you mentioned, if it's this question of, when do we adapt to people for people, uh, and when should we not?
Speaker 0 00:37:02 And as you mentioned, our baseline always has to be this understanding that we are cultural image bears and that, uh, our cultural identity reflects God's image in the world. And that's a good and beautiful thing. And so on the one hand, we have to lean into develop and celebrate who we are as, as cultural image bearers, to not be ashamed of that, to bring our full self to the table. Uh, if you willing to be proud to exist in the bodies, in the skin colors, uh, and the phenotypes and everything else that God has given us now at the same time, I believe the challenge of first Corinthians nine to accommodate ourselves, um, for others is within the context of the gospel and biblical witness, right? So this is, this is a very specific calling this isn't, or it shouldn't be used as a mandate for, for when you're in an interaction with somebody who's openly racist, uh, who's who's who openly abusive, uh, or, or, or any sort of a dangerous, unhealthy, toxic situation to just sort of bend over, uh, to be walked upon, um, to, to sort of just receive that shame, uh, this, this is not what Paul is calling for in this, in this situation.
Speaker 0 00:38:22 Uh, rather I'm talking about. And I think Paul is talking about as well. Um, you know, well-intentioned folks I'm thinking about even well, intentioned brothers and sisters in the Lord who think of this last year, you know, in the wake of the death of George Florida, a lot of folks have grown in their racial consciousness and, and, and they're feeling like, okay, now I finally understand that race exists. That racism is a problem, and they're trying their hardest to speak in a way that will connect with other people. And as is the case across the board, we often stumble with our words, we end up insulting when we're trying to compliment, uh, we end up offending when we're trying to encourage, uh, and you know, I C I, and I've even been in that situation too, where I have had the best intentions of my heart.
Speaker 0 00:39:13 And I say something and my brother or sister, and the Lord is like, yeah, that was offensive. Like I am so sorry that I did not, I did not intend to have that impact of my words. And so I'm talking about folks like this, where, for the sake of the gospel, uh, we can, we can understand who we're talking to understand the way they see the world. And for the sake of Christ, adapt how we talk to them, adapt, adapt our body language and our tone so that when we share the words of God, when we share scripture with them, it makes sense to them. It's an, it's an, a context that they're like, oh, I get that. I, that actually makes sense to me. And it's with that, that's where the pastoral invitation to say, okay, let's let's journey together here. Let's, let's figure this out together.
Speaker 0 00:40:03 Uh, if you will. So that's, that's what I'm talking about is how do we be students of each other listeners observers and say, okay, I want to put this person's interests above my own. I care about their heart. I care about their walk with the Lord. And so I'm going to be willing to have that conversation despite the emotional, physical cost of my have, uh, because, because I care about their wellbeing and their, their kingdom impact, that's when I'm talking about, I think that's what Paul is talking about when, when, when, uh, we're thinking as, as minorities, as people of color of adapting, who we are for the people around us. So kind of moving this on the same kind of train line here, you have a chapter, and this was one of the places I'm just going to, I'm just going to be real straight.
Speaker 0 00:40:56 This was one of the places I got really nervous. Um, because you have a chapter, I don't even know if the title has cultural appropriation in the title. And I will say, um, w w we talked earlier when I say, like, I pass as white I'm, I'm mixed, but I pass as white. And this is something that I think makes a lot of white people really nervous. And, and I started feeling the shame because I thought, I know I have done this unintentionally. Right. I know I have had these moments where I did not mean to, but I messed up, you know, kind of, kind of like we were talking about before, one of the way you eased that for me in the book was you, you started it by talking about food, which was not where I even dreamed you would go. Um, but I don't know.
Speaker 0 00:41:47 Can you give us like a short little 1 0 1 when you're talking to the readers and the audience of your book, when you, when you start talking about cultural appropriation? Because I, I say that, and I think it's an important part of this conversation, because as you're saying, like, so many people have had their eyes opened to, um, to this racial reality in America over the last, you know, year and a half, and we want to be a part of the solution. Um, but we don't always know how or what that looks like. And as anyone learning anything new, we're going to mess up, we're going to fall off the bike, we're going to skin our knees, and we're going to probably run over some people's toes too. Right. Um, and so, so can you just give us kind of a, kind of a one-on-one, um, you know, in a similar way that you did in that, in that chapter about this concept of cultural appropriation?
Speaker 0 00:42:49 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think there needs to be a lot of grace, first of all, in this conversation, because as the old saying goes, we don't know what we don't know, you know? And, uh, I, I had a conversation with a native American friend, um, years back when my first son was a baby. Uh, but I, I remember the conversation so clearly, because this is when those like little TPS became really popular and they were being sold in target and elsewhere. And I had literally thought nothing of that. It was just like, oh, okay. A new toy. But she was like, this is part of my culture. This is part of native American culture, and they are commodifying it. And, and all of these people who are not native Americans are now buying teepees for their kids to plan their homes, but do they have any native American friends?
Speaker 0 00:43:42 Do they even care about native American culture? And also no shade on target? I love target, but you know, when you're buying these sorts of cultural artifacts from say, non native American stores is, is that money benefiting the native American community at all? And I was like, wow, I never thought of that. Thank you so much for, for bringing this to my attention. And so, um, you know, I say that because on the one hand, I think sometimes we can become so offended when somebody doesn't be like, you're appropriating my culture. And I was like, okay, they might have no idea they're doing what they're. So we need to have a lot of grace first of all, with each other. And it's why we need to be in proximity and have cross-cultural relationships. We can learn from each other. Um, but, you know, so I think, yeah, cultural appropriation, this idea of treating something that is so valuable and so precious in somebody else's culture as well, nearly just, um, an object or a piece of decoration, or as something, uh, for you to have a fun experience to enjoy, that's totally disconnected from, from, uh, the beauty and narrative of that community and in a way that doesn't benefit them at all.
Speaker 0 00:44:55 And so I think when it comes to the conversation on cultural appropriation, we just, we have to continually be checking the posture of our heart. Uh, you know what I mean, we need to be giving regular space to reflect on our purchases. I think bottom line, this is a question, this is a topic that comes down to money. Um, what are we purchasing and why? Um, and so, yeah. Do you buy native American decor or for example, like a TB, because you value native American culture because you have native America and friends, um, or because it's just trending and it happened to fit your living room design, you know, uh, do you celebrate Cinco de Mayo or, or other cultural holidays for that matter? Uh, because, because you have a real heart for that culture, or because it's, uh, it's just a fun weekend experience that you want your family to have.
Speaker 0 00:45:47 Uh, we always need to be checking whether our purchases and our experiences are growing out of a true love and personal connection with the people group or whether we're just participants participating in something that, um, is going to be fun and authentic or a new experience. Um, and so basically we have to keep putting our money where our mouth is, right. Money is power. It comes down to money and who financially benefits from our purchases. Um, so there's, there's nothing wrong with a, non-Asian having agents spices in their home. I'm not, I'm not here to culturally police that. Uh, but did you purchase those spices from a local Asian supermarket, or did you purchase it some from a non-Asian grocery store? Um, yeah. Do you buy the fancy tacos from that white hipster cafe down the road, or are you purchasing tacos at a local taco Maria that actually it supports real immigrants in your community.
Speaker 0 00:46:44 Um, and you know, I love the words of Paul. This comes back to first Corinthians again, because he says everything is permissible. You know, no one's going to stop you for buying that bougie $5 tacos, but is it beneficial, right? Uh, you know, in other words, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and take this a step further if we really want to support local. Cause that's a big thing right now, if we really wanna support local, but, you know, for people that have financial capital, why not invest your money in entrepreneurs, in those communities, you know, immigrants, uh, local Mexicans, local Asians, local African-Americans who want to start their own shops, cafes, taquerias, afterschool programs, and more so that they can food and clothing and art for their community in a way that will benefit their community far more than any outside organization or company ever could.
Speaker 0 00:47:39 Amen. The, when you said it all comes down to money or was reminded, I told you earlier, this book is like marked up right now, but the notes I, I put in the margin, um, in that chapter was the farmer's market. So for us, our local farmer's market draws vendors, um, multicultural vendors, right? And so we can go get, you know, everything from brisket, barbecue, to Tamalas, to Indian food, with homemade non, you know, we can get all of these things and, and, and cookies and juice and, you know, supporting, you know, local, uh, black owned, small businesses, you know, and, and wine and all of these things. And it, um, it's, it's an amazing multicultural experience, you know, to go and then to know, like hand in hand, you're actually, you're actually exchanging this, this money and these goods and services with the people who actually created them, you know, and, and you're getting to see their face and they're looking in your eyes and, and it's a beautiful communal experience.
Speaker 0 00:48:41 Right. Um, because we can see it and, and, um, and that's kind of where my mind went as I was, you know, as I was reading through that. And I, and I appreciate the grace because we are all going to mess up. And I mean, I'm the first one with my hand up, but, but that's part of living in community together. That's right. Unfortunately, there's going to be some times where we, we mess up when we have to mend. Um, and so that's, that's part of it. Um, I have a list, I have a list. I have a list of questions that we're not going to get to, but Michelle, I'm going to ask you, what is, what is the place where you would want us to land and maybe what our appetite, a little bit more so that we can dig into this book and, and the, the bigger conversation around this book.
Speaker 0 00:49:31 And so we can know better and do better. Um, what would you, what would you leave us with right now and forgetting my list? I love it. I love it. Um, yeah, I think the very first step when it comes to cross-cultural relationships and in terms of connecting across cultures is, is simply being willing to change. It's that posture of heart, where it says, okay, that's different, but instead of pushing it away and saying, ah, that's too uncomfortable. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to do that to say, okay, how can I actually, you know, learn right now? Or how can I just be willing to sit in this discomfort and see what God has to teach me from it? I think that's a question actually, that we need to be continually asking ourselves how much discomfort am I willing to forbear for the sake of the gospel?
Speaker 0 00:50:24 Because cross-cultural relationships are messy because people are messy, you know, men. And so, you know, it starts with being willing to change, being willing to say, that's not how I would do it, but that's okay. I'm going to try something new today. And, you know, we can apply that both at an individual level with individual friends, but also at the church level, in terms of our worship and our preaching and our leaders and saying, you know, we've never done it before like this, but now's the time to try something new and it's going to be uncomfortable and that's okay. And we're not going to, uh, respond by boycotting by walking up and leaving. We're not going to respond by, um, you know, financially threatening the pullout or, uh, you know, trying to control, uh, because this is, this is the road that leads to, to, uh, true damage and true pain.
Speaker 0 00:51:18 Uh, and even, you know, um, lives can be lost in the cross hairs of, of this. So, um, in what ways, particularly now, where we're coming out of quarantines, and it's like, I feel like we've been given this wonderful opportunity to hit the cultural reset button and to, and to, to try things in a different way, like now is the time to embrace that change and be willing to try new things and to learn from new people, uh, for the sake of the gospel. And I truly think there's a fuller blessing and enrichment to our own lives that we will receive from that. Thank you so much. This is, this has been great. I really appreciate your time with me today. I appreciate your book. This book is a gift Michelle, and so I just really appreciate it again. It is called becoming all things, how small changes lead to lasting connections across cultures. Thank you so much, Michelle. Oh, thanks for having me. The time flew by too fast. The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
