Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 1 00:00:39 All right. I am so thrilled to welcome Dr. Kelly Flanagan to the podcast. Today. I have recently finished his newest book, true companions, a book for everyone about the relationships that see us through. Hey Kelly.
Speaker 2 00:00:57 Hey Alexis. Thanks for having me
Speaker 1 00:00:59 Now. I said recently, because I shared with you before we hit record that there are occasions when I finished the book, like the morning of the interview, but when I started this one a couple of weeks ago, I was at the pool and I thought this is going to be a great read. I'm having a great time. And I mean, I was, I was laughing right when I was reading, you know, parts of it, but parts of it, I was like trying to not cry at the pool. And I thought, I know myself well enough. I better give myself a few days to process before I sit down with a therapist to have an interview about this book.
Speaker 2 00:01:35 Well, I promise you, my goal is not to make you cry here today. Um, my goal is, as we talked about is just to tell you, I get to get to talk honestly about being human and, and, uh, the ins and outs of that, that we don't often talk about in public. And it's just, it's just an honor to get to sit here and do that with you. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:01:53 Well, it's this book is, um, it really is a gift. I feel like this, um, the way that you have communicated about love and companionship, I want to get into the details of it, of course, but I just feel like the way that you have communicated that this is not a marriage book, it's not a parenting book. It's, it's not a friendship book, right? It's, it's a book about companionship and relationships. Then this is, this is, goes across the spectrum. Um, as we, as children of God learn how to live with our neighbors. Well, right. That's right.
Speaker 2 00:02:28 Yeah. Yeah. I was just, you know, it's interesting. My first book lovable was really about unconditional love. God's unconditional love. And I actually, when I started to work on true companions, I thought it would be about the concept of unconditional love and marriage. But what I found myself really surprised by and delighted by was, um, this idea that we often think our humanness gets in the way of us loving each other well, and that I just, I just got in thrall, just wildly attracted to this idea that our is actually a vehicle for loving each other. Well, that it's a gift in and of itself. And, and so that's what this book became about. And, uh, it was, it was a joy to write because of that and, um, and just a blessing to be here, talking about it.
Speaker 1 00:03:14 So let's, I really would love if you could get us started with the difference in those Greek words, because I've got two comments before I ask you to answer that question. First one is, um, I was, I was talking to my husband. I was going to ask him to read it and I probably still will, but the truth is I talked with him about it so much while I was reading it. There won't be really any surprises for him when he, when he goes through it. But I forgot even what our circumstance was the other day. And I said something to him. I looked at him and he said, honey, I just filet you right now. Like, he's like, I'm just, I'm just really there. I'm with you. And he was, and he was half joking, but he was listening to me as I was talking with you about your book or talking with him about your book.
Speaker 1 00:03:56 And this, the second comment I have is I'm super, super jealous of the explanation that you give with Peter and Jesus. But these love, because this was a discussion question in my Greek class last year, and I totally could have used this. Wow, that's awesome. We all kind of inflate it, but part of it is reading the Bible even with companions, right? We're all going to kind of see things differently. And so I really appreciate your take on that. So now that I have like, hopefully prime the pump here and maybe confused people, can you talk to us about those two Greek words that in that encompass that, that, that unconditional and what you're calling this companionship love?
Speaker 2 00:04:42 Yeah, well, I think when I, when I started to realize that this love that I was going to be writing about in this book, um, that I call it companionship or true companionship was somehow S earthier and grittier and more human than the love I'd written about in lovable. It caused me to, to remember that, Hey, the Greeks had a bunch of different words for love, and I wonder how all those play out in the context of thinking about this. And so they had four words for love, but the two you're talking about a GAAP, a is the Greek word for unconditional love. And when the Greeks used it in indeed when the writers of scripture used it, they almost always used a gap to refer to to God and to God alone or to the gods. In some cases with the Greeks, it was, it was considered to be the property of the divine.
Speaker 2 00:05:30 Um, but then they had this other word, which was filea, uh, which was this idea of, um, and this is the root of the city of brotherly love Philadelphia. And, and the idea that this is a love that was, is built around doing life together, companionship together. It's a very human kind of love. And as I started to, to, to work through the ideas and true companions, I realized that I often just assume a GABA is a better love and that Philly is somehow subordinate to it. And in the writing of the book, realize that they sit next to each other. And, um, and, but the difference being that one is the, the kind that you live out in human skin, you know, uh, with each other in time and in space and in doing life together. And, um, and that concept began to enrich my marriage so much more actually than the concept of a gap I had.
Speaker 2 00:06:26 Like I'm always failing at a God. I'm always failing at loving my wife unconditionally. I mean, I, that you could tell for me in the book, I think she's about the most amazing thing God's ever created. And yet I'm constantly making small judgements, resisting who she is, you know, all of these sorts of things. And so to ask in the moment, what would it look like? Not for me to love her unconditionally, but to be a true companion to her right now just opened up new vistas and, and all of a sudden it was something I could do. And, uh, and so just as you can tell, um, I'm very excited about the idea of companionship and the way the Greeks have differentiated the two for us.
Speaker 1 00:07:03 Yeah. I, I would say the, my biggest takeaway from the book, um, and you, you talk about it in the intro, but, uh, but as I looked back and kind of was, was trying to prepare for this and kind of outline my thoughts and stuff, that the thing that I took away from this idea of being a companion and loving each other, um, in a companion kind of way is, um, this idea of witnessing.
Speaker 2 00:07:34 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:37 I mean, kind of on a lighter note, there was this old, old, like mad TV skit, like
Speaker 3 00:07:43 My husband and I still got, like, I don't know if you know that when I'm talking about, he's like, look what I can do, look what I can do right now.
Speaker 1 00:07:50 Totally. You know, the one, right. And, and, and it's like, this is what we all want though. Oh, great.
Speaker 2 00:07:56 I love it. How kids kids have created a new word. Look it, look it, look it, look it, you know, and it's like from the moment they're in, you know, coming out of the, and they can speak a word, it's witnessed me notice this, you know, I have my daughter, this was, this was summers ago now. I mean, it's probably a 7 16, 7, 2016, 17. She would have been six maybe. And I was working in the garage one afternoon and on a Sunday afternoon and she, we had a trampoline behind the garage and she came around to the garage, the dedi, can you, can you come with me? And she took my hand and we walked around in the back of the garage and she got on the trampoline and she started a jump and I was like, oh, okay. And then she jumped. And I watched, and I, she jumped and I watched, and finally I said, sweetie, what, what did you want me to see? And she said, me, daddy, I just wanted you to see me. I'm like, that's, that is companionship is witnessing just being there to see that,
Speaker 1 00:08:50 You know, just being there to see that. And also how you use this idea with your wife at the beginning, with your kiddos messy room, but, but witnessing life,
Speaker 2 00:09:02 The whole, the whole train wreck, that's the whole, all of the beautiful stuff and all the out of control, crazy stuff, but just sort of, yeah. Traveling through life together and witnessing it together.
Speaker 1 00:09:17 You got it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, that the idea of that, like what you're witnessing is messy, what you're feeling when you're seeing it as gross sometimes, but you're with each other and you're right. It's a grittier love. It's an earthier love than the, we think of this kind of up here, a GAAP, a kind of angels singing kind of. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:09:45 That's right. Yeah. Like, I feel like, you know, Jesus was God wanting to experience what it's, what the creation was like. I mean, there's a lot of, we could probably spend all day talking about the reasons for Jesus, you know, but that's gotta be one of them and to get to come in and experience all the grit and the glory of this wild sensory experience that is being human. And so, um, so then that way we sort of get to be Jesus with each other, to each other as to, to just sort of witness and see it all together.
Speaker 1 00:10:19 Yeah. Cause I mean, it's a big part of our faith, but I feel like at least maybe the way I was conditioned, jeez, divinity outweighed his embodiment so much that it made me feel really uncomfortable. The first time someone pointed out to me that like, Jesus pooped his pants.
Speaker 2 00:10:38 I love it. Yeah. And I'm like, no, he's God is
Speaker 1 00:10:41 Like, yeah, he was God as a baby, pooped his pants, think about it, you know? And I'm like, ah, I don't want to think about it, but I have four kids and I've changed a lot of poop.
Speaker 3 00:10:48 You know, he picked his pants, you know,
Speaker 1 00:10:53 That's a gritty kind of love man, that it
Speaker 2 00:10:56 Really, it really is. Um, I'm trying to sensor all my other thoughts about what Jesus did at this point. Um, yeah. So the idea that, um, you can edit this up. So I'm like, I mean, he was still wiping his butt when he was 33. I mean that's yeah. That's what we're getting at here. Yeah. So
Speaker 3 00:11:23 We want edited, edited, but yes, it's, it's pretty,
Speaker 2 00:11:31 It is gritty. That's right. Yeah. And I, um, I guess I, I was, I came up in a faith where I was taught that Jesus came to earth because of the problems with humanity and that's true, but he also came to earth because of what is good about humanity, the experience of being human. And, um, and so the idea that, um, that if we don't just sort of get to witness it all together, the good stuff and the gritty stuff together, like we're missing out on one of the big reasons he came. Um, that's, that's exciting to me. It's attractive to me.
Speaker 1 00:12:21 Yeah. I mean, I think when you, when you just said that I'm like w when, when God created humans, because I, because I grew up in NFA, that was very similar. Right. And so I'm like, but when created humans, one of the things that was pointed out to me in a Bible today long ago, it's, it's this, um, he created everything and said was good. Everything is told. Everything is stoked. And humanity is totally owed like humanities. Very good. Right. But, but God didn't create this very good humanity and then become shocked at how our Colin's work. Right. Like, I mean,
Speaker 2 00:12:55 That's right. That's right.
Speaker 3 00:12:58 This, he designed a stride, not like a
Speaker 1 00:13:02 Thing for him, you know, he's like, oh man, I didn't think about that. Like, no, right, wait,
Speaker 2 00:13:06 I should have made the bowel movements smell like roses. Darn it. I wish I could do that again.
Speaker 3 00:13:11 No do overs, man. You know, maybe that was after the fall, who knows, but you know, this is, this
Speaker 1 00:13:17 Is it. This is where we are in you're right. That, that Jesus, um, he, he became like us, like he put on this skin and this flesh and he walked, he had true companions. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:31 Yeah. He did. Well, you mentioned that, that scene on the beach, you know, after he's been resurrected and the disciples are out fishing and they recognize him and he calls them in and he's given Peter those three questions again. Right. Um, and I remember going to that for the first time going, I wonder what word for Greek word for love. He used in the original text and it, and, and it was even better than I could imagine. It wasn't one or the other. It was both. It was like the first two times he uses the word of God. And the third time he uses the word affiliate and that's gotta be intentional. And why, because at the end, he's asking, will you be my friend? Will you walk with me? Will you do life with me? Um, and that, that's the beauty of that is it just gives me chills
Speaker 1 00:14:16 Because that's the other thing, like, he, he knew how we were made. Right. But this point, gosh, at this point in Peter and Jesus relationship, he knew the screw ups Peter's capable of. Right. That's right. And he's still asking him in this gritty way, will you be my friend? That's right. We journey with me in this like, dude, I know I can't handle it sometimes.
Speaker 2 00:14:47 Yeah. Yes. Well, and how much, I mean, how much more real did that make his promise that he would send the holy spirit to, to know that he's leaving and yet he's asking me, will you, will I walk with him? Like he is going to continue to be present in the walk? Um, what a powerful gift that he gave that, that day to Peter and to the rest of them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:07 No, it is. It's, it's, it's huge. Um, gosh, that brings me to kind of the first part of your book. I really, I'm just going to highly, highly recommend you guys get a copy of this book. It's incredible. But um, you break it up into three parts. Um, and now we'll sell Seth. I may edit have him edit this out. Cause I wasn't gonna say it with your permission.
Speaker 3 00:15:34 I was looking at my notes and I'm like, here's what
Speaker 1 00:15:36 I'm not going to say about Kelly's book. And here it is that, um, here's the story you're lonely and then you struggle and then you die. But when I'm, when I was making the outline, um, that's kind of what it looks like, but I think we've been talking about all this. Nitty-gritty kind of gross part of being human, but the loneliness though, that's real. Yeah. That's a real part of being human. Um, and I love how you address loneliness. Um, so can you just, I mean, wherever you want to go with that, cause there's so much richness there, part of this and it's a book on companionship and you start with loneliness, which just feels so counterintuitive, but it's a really, really good foundational place for us to get our minds before we continue on that, on that journey. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:16:24 Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think, you know, you say that you're lonely, you struggle and then you die. Um, the, the book is the book is rooted in the faith that every part of the human experience has something redemptive built into it. Um, and so, um, I think we skirt around these hard parts of being human, um, because we assume, well that doesn't, that looks bad, feels bad. I, at first glance. And so we miss the redemptive elements inside of it. And, and so a big impetus for me writing this book was what are the hardest parts of being human, that if we actually dug into them could become the fertile ground for, for true companionship. And so loneliness is to me, the, the foundational one, it's this idea that we enter into most companionship with new. We may not say it out loud, but with pretty much the primary purpose of not being lonely.
Speaker 2 00:17:22 And, and so what the dynamic that starts to take shape in relationships is okay, you're my companion. Now, whether it's in marriage or outside of it. So now you're supposed to take away my loneliness. Uh, but what if loneliness, isn't something that anyone can take away completely. What if, what if loneliness has to do with the fact that no one can completely see you because yourself is sort of inside of you where no one else can totally get to and what if they could see you, but because no one else is exactly like you, they can't totally understand you, you know, to me, that's the epitome of loneliness I don't feel completely seen and I don't feel completely understood. And, um, and so when our companions can't do either one for us, which no one can we then say, well, you're failing at companionship because I still feel, I still feel loneliness.
Speaker 2 00:18:10 And now the companionship that the potential for growth and closeness and connection is cut off. Um, but what if we, what if we look, take a look at that idea of loneliness and say, no, companion can take your loneliness away completely because no one can see you and understand you completely now what now what's the potential in that loneliness and that sort of where, um, where we go and true companions. But the first thing that I had to do, I realized this was, oh, it was probably a year before I submitted the manuscript to the publisher. And, um, I think what is now currently chapter five was chapter one. And I went to my online tribe and I said, Hey guys, let me tell you how great loneliness is. And they're, I mean, they're, they are so supportive of me and they usually they're all claps and thumbs up.
Speaker 2 00:18:58 And they were like, are you crazy? Right? Like, no loneliness is this. And so we actually spent weeks online and dialogue teasing out what I meant by loneliness and what they heard when they heard the word loneliness. Right. And what they were hearing was abandonment, shame and isolation. Um, it reminded me of, uh, I had a couple of while back who came in for therapy and, uh, they were fighting about which, uh, re they were fighting about whether or not to put their, the new television in the living room basically. And they were not getting, they're not getting anywhere with it. So I sat him down and, you know, we reminded them of their communication tools and they started talking and I was listening to them. I was like, can I stop you guys for a second? And I said to the husband, I said, can you describe the room that you mean when you say living room?
Speaker 2 00:19:50 And he started to describe it and his wife goes, oh, that's the family room. You can put a TV in there. I don't care. And I realized that when I say the word loneliness, people think I'm describing a room that is decorated with abandonment and shame and isolation. And I'm not, I'm describing a room that is at the very center of you that contains everything that is worthy about you. Um, everything that is most unique and most beautiful. And, and that's why no one can totally get it. Like, you're the only one who has it. Um, and so it's really important at an outset of the discussion to say, Hey, this is what I mean by loneliness. And these other experiences, abandonment, shame, and isolation, they're hard. And they hurt, and we do need to work through them and heal and deal with them. But this one, this loneliness, we might be able to discover something really beautiful in it.
Speaker 1 00:20:36 Yeah. That was one of the most helpful parts of the maybe because I just wasn't anticipating that. And so when you, I wasn't, I was in a similar place, but actually felt myself kind of, I kind of felt my shoulders relaxed when I'm like, oh, this isn't the, he doesn't mean abandonment. He doesn't mean shame. Right. This isn't, this isn't what, oh, okay. So they're just kind of intertwined and if we can work, oh, okay. You know what? It was kind of this like progressive revelation almost as I was reading it going, oh, well, we can work with that. Right. Like we can work with that kind of undoing some of these strings and, and what was kind of funny. We're not doing a therapy session, but what I just thought of personally was I was thinking like abandonment and shame were kind of the two biggies for me when I was going through that. But, um, I was invited a week or two ago to, to join some people that I don't really know, um, at a retreat and a couple of months. And when I, I chatted more with the person who gave me the invitation and there, it became apparent that there was most likely going to be some alone time. Right. Sometime where I was going to purposefully, you know, be by myself. Now I have a husband and four kids and two dogs,
Speaker 3 00:21:55 And I don't get much of that. But given that I don't get much
Speaker 1 00:22:00 Of that. Like that idea should have really excited me, I think. Right. But then I realized, oh, but that's, that's the isolation part that I think my loneliness was decorated with. Right. Because what I was feeling is not, oh, I'm going to be lonely. It's, I'm going to be isolated here when my husband and I called I time, you know, like he'll, sometimes I'm an extrovert and he'll sometimes say, honey, I think what you might need tonight is some I-Time. Can I, can I take the kids? Right. Because I don't, I don't notice it, um, as much, you know, because of kind of how my personality expresses. But I think, especially with COVID, we've all just been here right. For, for a really long time and a really long time. And all of us are here. And so what I say I want is to be alone. And even when I try, I don't feel isolated because everyone's just on the other side of the door. Right. So the idea of like going to a retreat somewhere far away, that I have to take a plane to get to, and being in a room or a cabin potentially by myself, even though I say in real life, that that's what I want it felt. And I think it felt isolating. Right. Ooh, I don't know if I want to be isolated. Right. I think I would like to be alone.
Speaker 3 00:23:18 That's like a joy. Um, I don't think I, but I think I would have
Speaker 1 00:23:23 Is feeling the fear I was feeling was a fear of isolation.
Speaker 2 00:23:26 I think what a great distinction. I I've talked about this concept of isolation a lot of times, and you just illustrated it so beautifully that isolation is aloneness. You can't immediately get rid of like, you know, you can be alone in your den. And then if, if the aloneness starts to feel uncomfortable, you're just, or it's re was refreshing and you're ready to be done with it. Then you call them the kids. You know, when you take the dog for a walk or, you know, you have dinner with your husband, but to be alone and to not have any immediate way to dispel that alone, alone aloneness is isolation. And we aren't wired for a ton of that. Like, we are actually wired to be in community to be able to be connected with people. Um, so you're gonna have more isolation that you've been accustomed to.
Speaker 2 00:24:13 Um, but in, in this is, uh, this is increasingly becoming a, um, gosh, I hate to word it, use the word epidemic in our world, these, these days, given what we're going through. But, um, of people who don't have an immediate way to be seen, um, and social media, not withstanding because it doesn't really feel like it counts oftentimes. Um, and so you do have isolation growing in our world, no one who can kind of just call you up and we can go out and grab a cup of coffee and see each other. So, um, I appreciate that distinction and isolation is different than aloneness is different than loneliness. And those differentiations actually help us understand what to do in each situation.
Speaker 1 00:24:55 Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking of one of the stories shared in your book about one of your sons, maybe, and isolation. Now I cannot immediately put my finger on it, but if you can, because you were talking about, I think you were talking about how, um, I didn't note this one, but I think you were talking about, um, like kind of that difference in how we, how we feel and how we can, how we can unintentionally kind of, I don't want to say push someone into that place. Right. But yeah. So can you talk about that in that context?
Speaker 3 00:25:35 Absolutely. I hope I set you up. Um, that was, that was kind of vague.
Speaker 2 00:25:40 I think what you're, I think you may be talking about the difference between cross-country and
Speaker 1 00:25:44 Yes, yes, yes. That was the one that was the one. Yes. So,
Speaker 2 00:25:49 You know, currently my 17 year old, he probably, you know, 13 at the time, um, he was running cross country for the first time and I kept referring to it as track, which are very different.
Speaker 1 00:26:01 Well, it felt a little personal to me actually, because I did both. I can't believe, I couldn't remember that. That was a story because yes, because I did both and that isn't
Speaker 2 00:26:10 Yes, totally is. And I'm sure that's why you remembered this. The story was stuck in there, even though you couldn't. Um, and so, yeah, like he, at first, when I kept saying track, he would, you know, be like dad it's cross country, but by the time end of the season, when I was still doing it, he, he was feeling isolated. There was no one seeing I wasn't seeing him, you know, um, I wasn't doing the basics of what it takes to be seen. And I think it's in that chapter, I share the story of, um, not too long after that having scheduled, like my first ever self hosted retreat or my readers who are going to come out to Utah and, uh, found out, um, maybe three months before the retreat that my son was going to be the lead in Newsies in the spring musical.
Speaker 2 00:26:54 And I started to figure out all these different ways that maybe I could, you know, do the retreat and get there for the last show and all this stuff. And, um, I'll never forget my wife saying, um, yeah, we could probably get back for Sunday, but there's no way to recreate, you know, Friday night on Sunday afternoon, there was no way to recreate opening night at the last performance. And, and to me that was, that was powerful. It was a way of saying you've gotta be there in the F you gotta be there in the seats watching and seeing. Um, and so hopefully what reduces there a little bit, if I can be there for him in that way, is this sense of isolation is reduced to there's somebody that he can kind of turn around and know his, his witnessing his life.
Speaker 1 00:27:34 Yeah. Yeah. Um, because I think it's important that you, um, because we're in the section on loneliness, right. We're talking a lot about not being alone. Right. Seeing one another and things like that. But, but I think the phrasing that you use in the book is that the loneliness cause, cause the question is, how do you, like, my question is, well, how do you become a friend to your loneliness? Right. But the phrasing that you use that help me answer that is that your loneliness is the shadow side of your uniqueness. Yeah. Talk about the, the good thing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:28:13 Yep. So, um, by the way, we just sort of stumbled upon a good example of the difference between unconditional love and companionship, because I can go to my retreat and miss Adan, spring musical and tell him, and truly love him unconditionally and tell him how wonderful I think he is through and through and how much I'll be there for him no matter what, but companionship is getting to that show. Right. So that's a good, like a good distinction between the two. Um, yeah, so loneliness the, the shadow side of our uniqueness. Um, so, uh, I was just sort of curious and writing and I was like, I wonder like how unique really is every human being. I mean, you hear like we're 99.9% similar to, you know, monkeys, like how, how unique in each one of us be. And so when I did the research, I discovered that each one of us has 3 million unique variations in our genetic strand that no other human being has 3 million ways that we're, we're completely unique.
Speaker 2 00:29:10 Um, and so that brought to life, this idea of how truly unique we are. I mean, you combine that with the fact that none of us have lived the same story and no wonder there's no one in the world that can totally understand you. Um, and so this idea that you just can't, they're, they're two sides of the same coin. You, if you, if you're unique, you're going to be lonely and loneliness is going to flow from your uniqueness. And for that reason, we don't want to get rid of your loneliness. Cause it would be to eliminate your uniqueness, all these things that make you uniquely you. Um, and so to me, it started to become a way of celebrating when it happens, when my loneliness truly happens as pure loneliness, it's like, oh, here I am. This is me being just me and no one else can get it.
Speaker 2 00:29:54 Um, and now I don't have to fight my wife when she doesn't get me, because this is just the shadow side of my uniqueness happening. And I need to learn how to move toward that. Accept it, befriend it. Um, I just had a friend who reached out to me and said, Hey man, you saved my night at a party the other night. Like I would have felt terrible, ashamed, bad about myself. I would have left early. I might've gotten defensive and attack the people there because no one got me there. And instead I just sat back and went, oh, this is loneliness. This is my, my uniqueness. And so I'm just going to embody my uniqueness tonight and let it be. And so to me, that's a great example of moving toward that rather than trying to fix our loneliness by doing something about it. That won't work anyways.
Speaker 1 00:30:41 Yeah. I, when you're talking about the, the stats on that, um, and it didn't hit me when I was reading the book, but it hit me just now. I mean, we have, um, we have identical twins, our daughters are identical twins. Right. And we, um, we weren't for sure if they were identical or fraternal, just kind of, you know, how I carry them and this kind of thing. And so before they started school, we had their cheeks swapped because I thought people are going to ask them and they look enough alike, but we didn't know for sure. And so anyway, we confirmed that they, they definitely are identical twins and they are completely unique, right. This, this like, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:31:22 You look at this, they're like, you can see their DNA on the page. Right. And there
Speaker 1 00:31:28 They share a room. They all, you know, like all of the things, right. And these two sisters are in a lot of ways, just as different as night and day. Right. Um, comes out. And so they do have, um, a special experience to be twins that many of us don't have. And we'll never experience that. But even then, like they don't embody one another, right. They and buddy only themselves. Right. And so even, even them that are unique as a payer are unique as individuals and,
Speaker 2 00:32:05 And as a parent, you can see why it's set up this way, that we're also unique. Like you celebrate their uniqueness, the fact that they're their own people gives you joy as a parent. You wouldn't want it any other way, even though they're identical twins. And so no wonder God made it so that we each have 3 million unique variations. He said, that's what it's all about celebrating that we each get to be ourselves. And, uh, and yet when we have the shadow side of that experience, our loneliness, we start to think of that as a bad thing. Um, but we don't.
Speaker 1 00:32:36 Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's really good. Um, can we talk about the next part of the, of the airflow, the next part of my outline, where I stayed at we're lonely and we struggle and then we die. But, um, but that struggle is, goes along with our uniqueness too. Um, because we have these, this was a really hard section Kelly, this, um, these protections. I like, like, I'm like, why does that
Speaker 3 00:33:06 Go here? You know, like, why do you even have to talk? It felt really loud when I was reading, you know, some of these sections.
Speaker 1 00:33:15 Yeah. You know? Um, but we've all, but we've all got them. And so the struggle, um, tell us about the struggle, because it's not maybe what we would think when we first say the struggle.
Speaker 2 00:33:27 I love your honesty about your reaction to the section of the book, because, um, yeah. So, and I'll come back to why I love it. So the idea is that we each come into the world with what I call a connective self. It's the self that God created us created for us, it's designed for connection, but at some point it gets hurt. Um, we begin to believe that we're not good enough for connection. I mean, that connection is dangerous, risky hurts. And so we sort of develop a second self or protective self. And, and so we develop these protections to keep us safe and, um, protections do not like to have a light shined upon them because they quit being protective. You know? Um, and like the reason this section is in the book is that the bulk of the work that I do with individuals and with couples is, is basically that like is to develop a mindfulness and awareness of how am I showing up with my protection rather than my authentic desire to connect.
Speaker 2 00:34:29 And then if I can, if I can be mindful of that and aware of it, I've created just a moment of choice. I think it was Victor Frankl who said, there's a, there's a fraction of a second between stimulus and response. Right. And that, that fraction of a second is choice. And so if I can be mindful of the way I'm showing up protectively, then I've created a choice for myself. Um, I remember there was a weekend a while back. No, it was a week that was a Friday. Um, and I woke up and just a really grumpy mood, like, and my, my protections were on, like I was being critical of everybody. I knew everything, you know, and I, yeah, I had this vague notion in the back of my head that I was being a jerk for no reason. I just sorta knew it right aware enough of that, but not really paying attention to that notion.
Speaker 2 00:35:14 And, um, it must have been putting something in the microwave. Cause when I think of this, I think of the microwave as putting something in microwave and my, my wife just says, why are you being such a jerk this morning? And I was mindful that she was right, that, that I was, I was being protective and attacking in ways that nobody deserved. And she gave me a, you know, she brought that into awareness. I was aware of it at a moment of choice. And I remember because I don't often choose well in those moments productions don't go Jack. Right. But in that moment I just said, I don't know. I'm sorry. Um, and then like moments later, I'm like, oh, I know I'm, I'm speaking at a large event today and I'm feeling vulnerable and anxious about it. So I'm going to just, you know, bluster and act like I know everything just to feel a little bit more protected. Um, but yeah, that moment of choice of like, I don't know, good call. Um, and so, so that to me is why it's so important is that most of the day to day work of relationship is really just, am I showing up with my protections and can I just create a choice to let them go? I mean, it's, to me, it boils down to, it's almost that simple.
Speaker 1 00:36:23 Yeah. When, when you say that this the check-ins that we have there, um, my husband's a bugger and I'm not really that much of a hugger. And um, so he used to early in our marriage kind of call me like a, like a cactus. He's like a little prickly. Right. But this protective, right. I mean, it can be protective. And so there's a kid movie years ago, this movie came out called the crudes and there's one line in it where the grant grandma, um, she's
Speaker 3 00:36:53 Like hugs are traps, you know, like, so, uh, hugs or traps, that's a great line. That's like
Speaker 1 00:37:00 The line, right? Like if I'm feeling particularly prickly, I would call it, you know, I'm feeling particularly protect. He wants to just, you know, give me what my body needs, which is a great big 22nd hug, you know? And I'm kind of like, yes, embrace, let's not connect in that way. You know, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a little prickly, I'm feeling
Speaker 3 00:37:22 Like you're trying to attract. Right. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 00:37:24 And maybe it's not hugs, but, but you go through several where we, we have these that we can, if we're, self-aware, we're gaining self-awareness, um, we can see these in ourselves. Sometimes we can see them in the people that are close to us. Like your wife, hopefully in love, call them out and say, dude,
Speaker 3 00:37:44 That's right.
Speaker 2 00:37:46 Yeah. And you know, so when I originally, um, sort of plotted out the book and outlined it, um, I had listed a number of protections. Um, and then when I finally came around to, to write in that part, I realized that I had basically just included protections that were common to my personality type. Right. Like I didn't have prickly in there. Um, cause that's not my personality type. And so I thought like, how do we, how can I be sure that I've sampled a pretty kind of comprehensive range of protections? And I thought, you know what? The Enneagram is a really great tool. Um, so I'm gonna just try to identify the protection that I think is one of the primary protections for each kind of each type of the Enneagram. And that's how I ended up sort of laying that out just to try to make sure that I had a, a range that most people could, could see themselves in at least a couple of them and go back and check and see if I can pick my letter
Speaker 3 00:38:43 Or my right.
Speaker 2 00:38:45 Um, yeah, I think, yeah. So I think what did it, anger? Peace faking certainty. Yessing. Um,
Speaker 1 00:38:55 Yes. Feeding him withdrawal, withdrawal,
Speaker 2 00:39:00 Fixing helicoptering and excitement.
Speaker 1 00:39:04 Yeah. And excitement was the one that you said, this is not your emo, right?
Speaker 2 00:39:09 That's I think that's the primary protection of the 7 77. And that's my wife. She's an eight with a seven wing. And, um,
Speaker 1 00:39:18 You're married to an eight to man. It can, I just, I I'm feeling you right now. Like it's for me, it's a little,
Speaker 2 00:39:27 Oh, there's never, there's never a dull moment. Let's put it that way. I said
Speaker 1 00:39:32 That was his yelling. Like sometimes now I'll be like, babe, you're like eight talking right now. I'm going to need to it like it's early and I haven't had my coffee. I don't need you to pull it down just to,
Speaker 2 00:39:41 So you know what I discovered here, not too long, after too many years, number one, one of the things I love about an eight and I've always said this about her is I just never have to wonder what you're thinking. Like, oh my gosh. Like I, I grew up in a house where I didn't know what anybody was really thinking or feeling. I never have to worry about that with her. But I also realized that when I was doing my I'm going to communicate in a healthy, constructive way. She experienced that as disengagement. She experienced that as not really being interested. And so I realized that actually at the beginning of a thing I needed to sort of get in it a little bit,
Speaker 1 00:40:22 A little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:25 Like show me, you care. Like you get a little fired up here. So if I do that at first and then sort of say, now she knows I care. And now we, now I can try to bring my particular style to the, to the communication. So anyways, yes, marriage, marriage to eights is interesting. I love it. It's so much fun. I actually particularly love
Speaker 1 00:40:45 When I learned that women for eights. And so I love that you're married to an eight. Who's a woman because my, my framework for that as my husband. And so I kind of see this come out in a math one way. Um, a lot of times when I just learned one of my dearest friends, she just kind of learned that she is an eight and she's, she's, she's really healthy. Um, but I was kind of like, oh my goodness, I never would have pegged you. Right. But she's kind of like, yeah, you didn't know me know I was 19. Right. I'm like,
Speaker 2 00:41:14 I just always sort of feel bad for aids because you just did exactly what I like. My wife's an eight, but she's healthy. Because when you think of an age, you don't think of a healthy age. You just think of somebody who's just off the handle sometimes off though. Yeah. Off the rails. So it's so funny. You said that. Yeah. I will tell you though. I do love
Speaker 1 00:41:31 Being, um, I do love being an aids person like that, that feels like for, I know this isn't an Enneagram talk, but I'm like for a six who like really desires, security, like being an eighth person feels really safe. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 2 00:41:46 And that's like, I think people, a lot of people don't realize that the aids anger at its healthiest is always in defense of the underdog. Right. Always in defensive, there are people. And so, oh, it's amazing to be married to an
Speaker 1 00:41:57 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We just had someone, someone came to the door the other day about they're wanting to change something on the homeowners association. Right. And I'm like, I'm like, I have a master's degree in social justice. Right. I'm like kind of aware, vaguely. At least I try to be, you know, kind of what we talked about on the podcast and things like that. And they, and they come and they say, Hey, we're gonna make these changes. Would you sign this thing? And it's like, we're trying to bring groceries in and we're trying to get bads. And it's kind of all of the things happening at the same time. So I bring the form to my husband and I say, look, they want to do this. And this is, this is one of the stipulations. This is the other one. And he just like, looks me straight in the face. And he, and his eight talk, he just goes, absolutely not. I will not do it, send it back. And I was like, all right then. Um, so yeah,
Speaker 3 00:42:38 I'll okay. That's I don't have to wonder we're done. You know, and, and I was kinda like, I don't know, I was kind of
Speaker 1 00:42:43 Looking at the nuance of it, you know, of course he, he does that as well, but his immediate reaction was no next. I was like, okay, well that sounds good. Know
Speaker 2 00:42:54 I I've learned to. Yeah. And we, we can segue back to the book, but, um, I've learned too that when I'm sort of caught in a spiral of indecision about something, I just, why am I wasting time here? Go ask her opinion and it should be like, yeah, this is exactly,
Speaker 1 00:43:11 I love it. It's it it's admirable. Um, but, but we all even aids, right? We all have these protections that, and so the, so the struggle is real, but the struggle, you're not talking about this struggle with our companions. You're really talking about the struggle with our own protection that keeps us from being a true companion.
Speaker 2 00:43:32 You mentioned the butterfly metaphor that sort of threaded throughout the book. And the idea is that in the loneliness part of the book, um, a caterpillar retreats into its own lonely space in order to become the beautiful thing that it's, it's here to be. But then once it's grown, um, it now needs to leave that protection that it's created while it was growing. And, and, and so we have all created protections over the course of our journey. And as we've been growing to keep us safe in that process of growing, but a butterfly, then it comes to the point where they got to push their way out of those protections. And, and one of the fascinating things about it is that a butterfly can only grow strong enough to fly. If they've pushed their way out of those protections, it's the struggling against the cocoon that makes their S their wings strong enough to fly.
Speaker 2 00:44:24 You can't, you can't help a butterfly out and cut it out, or it'll just never be able to do what it's here to do. And so, to me, that's the struggle, not with my partner's protections, it's the struggle against my own, how to push my way out of them and show up as myself. Um, and it's that very struggle, which is making me strong enough to, to love really that's how I learned how to love. And, uh, and so again, this idea of struggle, the redemptive piece of it is that the struggle itself is how we grow strong enough to show up as ourselves and to be who we are and to do what we're here to do. Um, and so if we can redirect our energies from pointing out, this is what you do to protect. This is what you're doing to defend. And instead turn that, that attention to ourselves and be aware of that in ourselves. Um, then, and if we can have two people who are mutually agreeing to do that, like it's off the hook. It's amazing. It really is.
Speaker 1 00:45:17 Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, Emma was kind of loud the, the, the portion of the book, but, um, but it was good. I was, I was thankful for it because that's what we want. Right. We want to be more self-aware so that we can, then we can come true with our come through with our true selves. Um, so the redemptive part of the last part of the book. Yeah. Um, this, I hope this doesn't leave me and I'm kind of paraphrasing, but this was what I took away from. The last part was like, out of all the things we talked about, God created that are good, and we're very good. And part of this very goodness of this embodiment that we get from the Lord is that we, we get to realize that our days are,
Speaker 2 00:46:08 Yes, I love the way you just said that. We get to realize that our days are numbered. It's a blessing.
Speaker 1 00:46:16 Wow. Right. Yep. There,
Speaker 2 00:46:21 Um, there's a, there's a word for a phenomenon in psychology and it's called habituation. And habituation is the reality that if a stimulus is constant in safe, we quit paying attention to it. Our nervous system basically says, I don't need to waste any more time, paying attention to this. It's constant and it's safe. So our clothes are a great example of that. When we first put them on this morning, we felt them briefly. And then our brain said constant and safe. Don't pay attention to them anymore. You know, I mean, you light a candle in a room, right. And smells great for an hour, and then you don't smell it anymore. And then you go out to the garage and you come back in and you go, oh, wow. It's, it feels good in here. Um, and so w the reality is this, our companions are constant and safe.
Speaker 2 00:47:11 The two things we're asking of them, we we're going to start habituating to them. We're going to start taking them for granted. And so like, when, when someone says, you're taking me for granted, you can say, it's the best compliment I could ever give you your constant and you're safe. Um, but we, we will, one day wish that we hadn't taken them for granted that we we'd done something to disrupt that sense of habituation. So one of the things, the thing I talk about in, in true companions is that there's a line of research that says basically the only way to consistently disrupt your habituation is to prime your fragility, to be aware that your days are numbered, this gift that we've been given, this that, that we can, we can anticipate that and be aware of it. And that perspective that your horizon is actually, you know, not infinite, uh, and that your days are numbered actually leads to an entirely different set of values that surface within us in a different quality of attention, we value deepening our relationships with our closest companions, paying close attention to our lives and enjoying ordinary everyday pleasures.
Speaker 2 00:48:21 Um, and without that awareness of our fragility, we slipped right back into habituation, or just sort of coast coast through life. So what a gift our fragility is,
Speaker 1 00:48:30 Man, this was, um, this was an increase. This was an incredible section. Um, I just had, I had S I had so many thoughts while I was reading this, you know, one of them was, this was, um, when I was a kid. And I think we, we all, maybe not all of us, but it's not, it's not uncommon, um, right. For kids to be like, afraid of death, right. Or even for groups to be afraid of death. Right. And that was like, one of my, this was, this was what kept this anxious child up at night. Right. Um, and, and I turned 40 next month. And so this, this kind of, oh, like here we are like, we're, you know, when my husband first said something about me being in midlife a few months ago, I almost smacked him, but he's right. I mean,
Speaker 3 00:49:19 It's 28 anymore. Um,
Speaker 1 00:49:23 But, um, this, this, this memory making, right. I remember when my mother-in-law, she she's actually passed away now, but, but she used to talk about that. Like, I just want to make these memories, you know, and, and, and in my, in my head, I'm kind of rolling my eyes. I'm thinking you're such an old person, right? Like this that's such an old person thing to say, but I regret that, you know, I regret that, even that emotion tied to that, because, but I just didn't have a life experience that she had to to understand that this is, these are, these memories are really valuable. And, and hers even saying, I want to create memories. She's doing exactly what you're suggesting. Right. She's getting in touch with this fragility that we have and recognizing she, and, and sadly, she's saying these kinds of things before she was diagnosed with cancer.
Speaker 1 00:50:15 Right. Um, and so, um, you know, she was getting in touch with her fragility. Right. And, and, and had I done the same, I would've probably made some different decisions, but, um, it is this, this whole section of the book when you're talking about that, um, it also made me think of, I don't know, I I'm, I'm wanting to say the word legacy, but that's not really what I mean, but, um, you know, but being able to, to have that continue with our companions, because I mean, you know, you talk about that. Like, there will be a time, like my husband's real sweet and romantic, and he always says, I'm, we don't, he doesn't tell me he's going to love me forever. He always tells me he's going to love me until one of us dies. Right. Super sweet romances, his gift.
Speaker 3 00:51:09 He and I would hit it off. I mean, I have this,
Speaker 2 00:51:13 This mortality consciousness that I can't shake. I often joke. I have to joke that I don't understand why we say hi to each other. I think we should say you survived. I don't understand. I cover it. We all get through a day.
Speaker 3 00:51:26 Right. So he's, he's always going to love me
Speaker 1 00:51:28 Until one of us dies and I'm fine with that now. But, um, we used to be a part of a tradition where when someone would pass away, what we would say is made their memory before a blessing. Um, and I think that's just so rich, right? Because it, it, it recognizes this, um, you know, this companionship that we're missing now, but it recognizes, um, I don't know, like those, the memories, the pads helped me. It records, it puts a name to that.
Speaker 2 00:52:04 It's a lot there. Um, so the first thing that comes to mind is there was a year where my new year's resolution was simply that when I walked in the house, it would be a net positive for the family. You know what I'm saying? Like that for a week, bro, I'd consider saying, I don't know. It was probably one of those that didn't get to, you know, there were still people going to the gym when I gave up on that one. But, um, but you know, and that's what I think you're saying is that, and what a beautiful vision for one's life that I would live in such a way that my memory is a net positive, but it's a blessing to those who, um, who remember me. But I think it's important to say around this, to that, because I think one of the reasons we hesitate to go in this direction is how much potential regret is also woven in. You mentioned the story with your grandmother, right? Like as soon as I start to become aware that life is precious and short and fragile, I'm now also aware of all the times. I haven't been aware of that and how I've been habituated and I've been on autopilot. Um, and so one of the things I like to encourage people to remember in this regard in particular is that regret usually is just to the fact that you're ordinary.
Speaker 2 00:53:29 Then of course you go, of course you have <inaudible>. And of course, you're now aware that you, you need your fragility primed in order to really appreciate your people in your life. And you will forget it by next week and that's okay, that's ordinary. But if you've set on the whole, your goal of being more aware of this trajectory of every human life, then on the whole, you're going to be more aware. And that's what, that's what we're aiming for. But, um, goodness gracious. You're, you know, we're, we're all ordinary. We're actually wired to just go on autopilot and quit thinking about it. And so don't try not to beat yourself up for that just when you remember start to be aware again, really?
Speaker 1 00:54:10 Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Um, I mean, we've hit, we've hit the main, the main outline of the book, but I just can't, I really can't recommend it enough. Um, I'm going to tell everyone what I told you before we started recording, which is I I'm an avid reader, people who, um, who I'm blessed enough that listened to the podcast on a semi-regular basis, know that, um, I read every book, um, you know, essentially that, that we have guests on and I love reading, but this will be when I come back to, like, I anticipate coming back to this one because I want to see, um, how it hits me next year or the year after. So I'm saying that say we've hit, we've hit kind of the outline and some of the high points, but man, this is so rich there's so there's so much meaty, good stuff in here. Um, but saying all of that, Kelly, where, where would you want to leave us? Like, what's the question that I didn't ask. Is there anything left in you that you're just like, if I could leave people with, with this, with this thing, it would be it. Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:55:17 That's a really good question. Um, well let's just keep following the flow. Um, the, uh, the, the book concludes with me sort of imagining my own inner reunion of all the companions that have sort of walked with me along the way. Um, and I think when we, um, when we talk about such things that we come to initially heavily, right, loneliness, struggle, and mortality, um, I think it's important to, um, to also just make some space for celebration, um, and to celebrate it was amazing. So the, the concept is that you sort of carry your companions around with you and, and they're all there inside of you, um, all of those memories and experiences. And if we can just be still long enough to sort of connect with that, I was amazed at the people who showed up at my inner reunion and, and there was a tremendous sense because I've gone through much of my life feeling very alone and lonely and came out of that exercise going.
Speaker 2 00:56:25 I was never alone. Like I've been blessed by so many companions that I've taken for granted, you know, people who came in for a season or a year. And so I just would invite listeners into this opportunity to just take some space, um, and then reflect back on your story through the lens of companionship and just ask yourself who are the companion? It's a, it's a, it's a teacher that said that thing that made you fall in love with English. It's a, um, you know, it's a, uh, uh, a mentor and advisor who walked with you for a season. It's, um, a sibling who maybe didn't live in a house for long, but for a little while, you know, you played basketball in the driveway every night on, in the summer of 82. And these, these are the people that sort of populate our lives. And so I just wanna encourage listeners to take some space to celebrate the companions in our lives.
Speaker 1 00:57:16 Hmm. Thank you so much, Kelly. Um, where can we, where can we find you online? Um, hang out, are there places where people can connect and I'll put links to buy the book? Of course. Um, but where else can we find you?
Speaker 2 00:57:30 Sure. Yeah. So thank you for asking. Um, so my website is Dr. Kelly flanagan.com. It's D R K E L L Y Flanagan, F L a N a G a n.com. And, um, it's a great place to start. Uh, you can, when you get there, there's a big button at the top that says, get your guide. It's a 52 week guide I've created, um, that can actually serve as essentially like a weekly devotional and practice for your entire year, walking you through the cultivation of worthiness, belonging, and purpose. Um, and so it's a great place to start. You'll almost never get more than one monthly email from me. Um, but, and this is really exciting. It's the first time I've announced this anywhere other than to my own sort of tribe. Um, we have, uh, scheduled, I want to say it's October 15th, 2022. Um, we're going to call it companion camp and it is going to take place at the four U ranch and POA Utah.
Speaker 2 00:58:25 That's for the number you, the letter ranch, we did, uh, the lovable retreat weekend 2019 there. And it is, I, I'm not even gonna try to describe the place to you because, and my wife and I are going out there and in October to spend time with Donna and Gary urban, just to, um, to, to, to enjoy them and to talk about companion camp and you can't comprehend how cool this place is. So you walk on the property. It's just amazing. So, um, if you want, if you're interested in maybe doing that coming to companion camp 2022 and getting together with like-minded people talking about all these things and growing through them, um, then just going to the website and subscribing as a great place to get connected.
Speaker 1 00:59:04 Awesome. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, I'll put that on there. I mean, my, my husband is, I'm a geologist and one of his favorite places is Utah, right? He, yeah. He loves being in that, in that, um, part of the country, because the nature is so beautiful
Speaker 2 00:59:19 There. These two, um, they had, they had jobs in California and when they retired, her dream had always been to, to start an event ranch in Utah. And so they have 70 acres outside of park city, and they have the most gorgeous event barn. They host weddings every weekend. It bumps up against these mountains. There's a river running through the backyard. It's just a gorgeous, it's just an incredible place. So we're really excited to do companion camp there.
Speaker 1 00:59:43 Oh, that's fun. That's awesome. I I'll put all of those links in the show notes for everybody. And gosh, Kelly, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. This has been amazing.
Speaker 2 00:59:53 <inaudible> was truly a blessing to me. Thank you, Alexis.
Speaker 0 00:59:57 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
