Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Oh my goodness. So I'm so excited today to be sitting across from mark. Scandrett this book that I literally finished this morning, um, as a part of my quiet time with the Lord, it was amazing. It is called the nine-fold path of Jesus, hidden stem of the beatitudes. And I'm so thankful for this. Thanks for coming on, mark.
Speaker 1 00:01:04 Hey, it's great to be with you, Alexis.
Speaker 0 00:01:06 I'm I'm so excited because, um, we were chatting just a little bit before we hit record and we do, we talk about justice and generosity on the podcast. Um, but not necessarily because that's just what, you know, I picked out it does interest me, but so much of the way of Jesus is that right? It is, um, his being generous toward us, like to the extreme and part of that generosity includes, um, includes his, his, his justice and his call for us to walk that justice out. So, um, gosh, there's so many places that I want to go, but maybe we could kind of start there because you talk in the book about this blessing, this righteousness, this justice. So can you kind of help us through the vocabulary? Cause I think probably most people listening are familiar with the beatitudes, which is what this book is about, but walk us through some of that vocabulary on that.
Speaker 2 00:02:07 So, um, you know, the beatitudes are, I think the table of contents for the sermon on the Mount and, um, w really, you know, uh, one of my mentors, uh, Dallas Willard used to say, uh, Jesus had a curriculum for his way of life and the best accounting we have of it is the sermon on the Mount. So at that very beginning, I think that the attitudes are setting up the themes of what it looks like to live in the consciousness that Jesus lived in and acted out of. And so, um, that word blessing, it's a funny word in English, you know, the way we, the way we talk about being blessed or, you know, hashtag blessed or whatever, but, um, in the, uh, in the original language Makarios, the word means something like, oh my goodness, this person really has going on. You know, like, you'd think of like queen Beyonce or your favorite athlete or, um, or a tech billionaire as someone who lives life on a whole other elevated level.
Speaker 2 00:03:15 And, um, as if there's, there's like some people live live at that level and then there's the rest of us. And so what was probably shocking to the people that Jesus spoke these words to is who he called Makarios blessed in that way. And at that time, people thought if you're rich, if you're successful, if you're attractive, you're blessed. And if you're poor struggling or suffering, you're, you're cursed actually. And so Jesus starts off by saying, it's, it's those who know their poverty, who are blessed. It's those who are feeling their pain and grieving that are blessed. It's those who, who, um, you know, are, are meek, who are blessed and everyone is listing is going. I didn't think those people were blessed. And so I think what Jesus is trying to say, there is whatever your situation, whatever your story, wherever you find yourself, God's life can come to you. And no one, no one gets left out or left behind.
Speaker 0 00:04:13 I think, you know, when you said at that time, and I thought, well, and now, right, this is right. Cause I think in the book, you also, you also kind of describe it as like, God-like right, like this, you know, this, this wording and it's like that, that wasn't just, then this is, this is now, this is our life. Now this is who we think has a really going on is not even as Christians. It's not the people who fit the description of the blessed people in the beatitudes that really kind of have it going on. So, um, I would love to tell the story or part of it that you tell in the introduction of kind of where this book came from when you met the Zen. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:04 So, so I got invited into this project called nine beats. I was in a pub in London and my friends who work for a Bible agency in London, said, we want to, we want to do a project around the beatitudes because in the 21st century, a lot of people in emerging generations feel like Christianity is toxic or completely irrelevant to their lives, but there's some freshness to the sermon on the Mount. And th the, these beatitudes statements. And I don't, they said, I don't think people know that Jesus was about peacemaking and justice and things like that because of what's been associated with Christianity, you know, in more recent times. And so I said, Hey, I'm in, I'd love to help with this project. So my, my kind of, um, life's work is helping create spaces for experiential encounters and we call them learning labs.
Speaker 2 00:05:58 So they wanted me to help them develop a learning lab around the beatitudes. And I said, um, you know what, this project makes me think of. And, um, I said, when my first book came out, a Zen, Buddhist priest contacted me and he said, mark, I saw your book at a bookstore. And I thought you were the kind of Christian that maybe I could talk to about what's going on in my life. And he said, um, I'm about to receive Dharma transmission, but I'm holding off because every to be fully ordained. But he said, um, when I sit Zen and meditation, I hear Jesus calling to me and I don't know what to do with that. Can we talk? I'm like, of course. And so we became fast friends. Um, uh, one thing I remember is, and maybe this comes from my kind of evangelical fundamentalist background when he started talking about Jesus. I first wanted to see what he believed. And so I said, well, what do you, what do you, what do you believe about Jesus? Any, instead of answering my question, he just said, I adore Jesus.
Speaker 2 00:07:06 I couldn't say anything else. And then he started to tear up and he just said, again, I adored Jesus. And, and that struck me because I think I've often had sort of a soulless intellectual relationship with my faith. And here's somebody who, um, feels that and experiences that, that F that affection for Jesus as, as the one who knows the way. So about, uh, on the second time we got together, we went for a walk around my neighborhood. And, um, I S I turned to Shingo and I said, I'm not that familiar with faith traditions outside my own. Could you help me understand when you wake up in the morning, what do you seek to do? And to be, and in about four minutes, he shared the four noble truths. Like this is my understanding of reality, and then the eightfold path. So he said, I wake up every day and I try and deepen my experience of those eight paths.
Speaker 2 00:08:03 Um, and I thought that's amazingly clear, concise, and concrete. And then he turned to me and he said, mark, you identify as a follower of Jesus. When you wake up in the morning, what do you seek to do and be? And my first thought was, oh, I get to share my testimony about how I became a Christian, but no, that, wasn't the question. He like that his question was about not back in the day, but now. And so I quickly recovered and I said, well, I wake up each day and I try and love God with my heart, soul, mind, and strength. And I try and love my neighbor as myself and I sort of pat myself on the back and congratulated myself for recovering and giving what was, I think, a true answer, but I was a bit haunted by the sort of vagueness of my response to <inaudible>.
Speaker 2 00:08:57 And so I, I told this story to my friends in that London pub, and I said, it feels like for Christians, we need something like the eightfold path, something that gives us a bit more teeth to having have, when we wake up each day, having an imagination for what is it exactly that Jesus is inviting us to do to love neighbor and our God and neighbor and ourselves. And it's not that Jesus wasn't clear about his path. We have the sermon on the Mount 110 verses there, and then Jesus lived those words out in the rest of the gospels. But, you know, I have a hard time remembering a 10 digit phone number. So how am I going to remember 110 verses? So I really use this project as a way for myself to develop my sort of vocabulary for an imagination, for what is the Jesus way. When I wake up each day, what is God inviting? What are those paths that God is inviting me into?
Speaker 0 00:09:59 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, at that reminded me, that was where I teared up in the intro because I teared up in the same place. Um, gosh, to just adore Jesus, right. Um, yeah. To just adore him. Um, so part of what I love about this book and this project that accompanies it, because you have, um, not just put a book together, you've been like talking to people and taking people through this and, and inviting them to come along with you and say, you know, what would this look like? You know, in real life to do this. And I really enjoy that invitation. So I'm hoping that you can take us there because those are two of the, the language tools that you use, that I like the phrase that you use that I like about. So these, the attitudes, what if we, for me, it was the question.
Speaker 0 00:11:01 What if I looked at this as an invitation? What if I didn't look at this as, um, I'm not that, so I can't be all that, right. I'm not meek, so I can't be clean Beyonce. So this doesn't, you know, this doesn't work for me, but what if I didn't look at it like that? And I looked at it as an invitation. So, um, some of the invitations that you, you know, talk about in the book and invitation to the way of trusting God and invitation to lament what's broken. And so that's one is this invitation language, but also this language of, um, shifting our consciousness, because I want to be clear. And, and I, I think you're clear, but for people who haven't read the book, when we say the nine-fold path, um, and, and for those of us who aren't familiar with Zen Buddhism, this isn't a checkoff list, right?
Speaker 0 00:11:58 This isn't, this isn't a how to book this. Isn't a, self-help this, isn't a, we get to check these things off, and now we're like Jesus, or now we're godlike, or now, you know, where any of these things, this is invitation to really change the change the way that we're aware of ourselves and the world around us and how we're and how we're kind of living this out. So I know that was kind of a big, um, kind of put a lot out there at you, but can you talk to us about those two things that invitation and then that shift of consciousness?
Speaker 2 00:12:27 So, um, I'll just say, first of all, I don't think shame or should, is PR are helpful motivators. And I think particularly in faith spaces, we've used those things as tools. And so we ended up sort of beating ourselves up for not being more loving or kind, or patient or whatever. And, um, my understanding is that that if we saw the world as Jesus did, we would not, we would naturally, or w well saw God saw ourselves and saw the world as Jesus did. We would naturally be able to live in the generous just, and full way that Jesus did. And so, um, what is keeping us from that kind of flourishing? And so, um, the, in scripture, Paul talks about the old, the old person, the old nature, um, others, you know, Merton talked about the false self versus the true self. And I think, um, you know, uh, Paul also talked about the kingdom of darkness versus the kingdom of light.
Speaker 2 00:13:41 And so we're being invited to move from a distorted view of who we are, who God is and how life works into a more accurate understanding. And so, um, Jesus' main message was the kingdom of God is at hand. I think kingdom is just another word for reality. We can trust that Jesus saw life clearly, and he is a wise and reliable guide to telling us here's how life works. And here's how life works best. I can show you a better way. And so, um, I use those nine B attitudes to name, first of all, to name what, what I would describe as first instincts. These are prime biologically based responses that we have to the stress of existence, you know, so, uh, you know, a classic one would be the fight or flight response. We come out of our mom's bodies and, and it's, uh, it was warm in there and now it's, it's cold and there's bright lights and loud noises.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 And so our first instinct is sort of terror. And, uh, I know when my kids came out of their mom's body, they grasp their hands sort of in protest and screamed, you know, am I going to be safe? Is this a safe world to live in? And if we don't learn to relax and to trust, we live in a constant state of chronic anxiety. And I think that posture leads us towards, um, towards, you know, that experience of anxiety and worry, but also a striving and a greediness and a hurriedness that whatever comes out of a sense of not enoughness and scarcity. And so that first beatitude blessed are the poor is an invitation to move from closed handed anxiety to handed trust. And that's a, that's a shift in consciousness, you know, to, to go from that small minded limited way of seeing to a more expansive and full picture of our situation.
Speaker 2 00:15:48 And so in the book I named nine of those sort of flips that were invited to make. And what's interesting is they're, they're universal experiences. And so I I've taught on this on five continents and I can go into almost any group and say, where in your life are you closed handed? Have you felt like you don't have enough, or you're not enough, or, or there's something lacking? We all have a story about that. What if we could learn to relax and open our hands to receive what we need with gratitude, to get in touch with our desires and to ask, seek, and knock, and then to learn, to be generous with the abundance that we receive and share with one another and learn to live in a more interdependent way rather than out of that anxious mentality of more bigger and better. So I'm excited by that.
Speaker 2 00:16:44 It feels, it feels like a real invitation into a better way. I know when I'm living in anxiety and worry, I'm not fully present to the people in my life. Um, it wares I'm exhausted because of that hurry and striving. And so in all these dimensions of our lives, Jesus just has a better way for us. And it, it benefits us, but it also allows us to show up in ways that are more loving and just in the world as well. So it changes us personally, but it can also change the systems that we're a part of. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:21 I mean, I, I'm feeling a little bit like this is, um, what I'm about to say is kind of a superficial response, but it brings to my mind, you know, when we kind of juxtapose those, like blessed are the poor with an invitation to trust for me, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to be poor. Like no one wants to be poor, right? So this is, this doesn't feel like a very fun invitation, but an invitation to trust God. Now that feels a little scary, but I would say kind of in this universal way that you're talking about, I'm like, but how many stories, testimonies, praise reports, all of these kinds of things. Have we all heard over the years of moments when we really had nothing, we didn't have what we needed and we made a choice to trust God. And he came through, like we watched him come through, right. And it doesn't always happen that way. But I think of all of the times when that happens, like that's actually really fun to write like this, the trusting moment that leads to something cool where we can kind of see God like bustin in that imitation is really fun. And I don't think we would describe the poverty as fun, but watching him bust through in, in, in the midst of our trust, that's super fun.
Speaker 2 00:18:44 But, uh, so poverty is not a blessing. And I definitely feel for my brothers and sisters around the world who are struggling for just real daily bread and, um, access to adequate medical care and public safety and, and clean water. So I don't want to minimize that at all. Uh, in some ways my brothers and sisters, in those parts of the world, I think often find it easier to live in open-handed trust. And it sometimes takes longer for those of us with more privilege to realize our poverty. Um, in the end, nobody has enough, not even the wealthiest person in the world, we all experience, um, loss of relationships, disappointments things do not go as we would hope they would. We're all gonna get to a point where in our lives where we're relationships, we hope to be closer, will not get closer. Things we hope to achieve are not going to happen.
Speaker 2 00:19:44 And in addition, in addition to that, we're all going to get sick or injured or old and die. So ultimately none of us have enough. And so if trust in God was dependent on things going our way, uh, we're in big trouble, but I think the deeper consciousness or deeper level of trust is to open our hands and say, and, and believing that nothing can separate us from what is essential to our well-being not even death can separate us from what's essential to our well-being because we're eternal beings connected to the source of all of life. A friend of mine, Jan Johnson loves to say we live in the unshakable kingdom of God. And so it's the journey for every human being to learn, to learn, to let go and trust in some way.
Speaker 0 00:20:36 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for taking us there and thank you for clarifying that. Um, yeah, I think I appreciate it. And, um, yeah. And, uh, in my mind, I, not only thinking about, um, economics, but I really appreciate you taking time to, to clarify that and, and, and, and take us there because, um, the language, if, when we read it on the surface of the beatitudes can feel confusing. Don't you think in that way? Right. Cause you just said poverty, isn't a blessing. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1 00:21:14 But those two, but those who,
Speaker 2 00:21:17 But those who know that they are poor are blessed because it offers them the invitation to live in openhandedness.
Speaker 3 00:21:24 Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:21:26 That's good. That's yeah. That's yeah. That's really good. Thank you again for that. Another
Speaker 2 00:21:32 One of those, this, this one I have to be delicate about because it's, it's tends to be triggering for some people, but another one of those first instincts has to do with, um, peacemaking. Um, we have, uh, we're biologically primed to distinguish between peoples whose facial features and skin tone look like us and those who look different than we do. And if we're not, if we don't consider it, we will automatically give those who look like us, the benefit of the doubt and those who, um, and become more defensive in our posture towards people who look different than us. So if we want to overcome racism, we have to transcend our biology and, um, and you know, um, and, and learn to see the bigger picture. And I think we start off in life with this sort of us and them mentality. And, um, and the gospel invites us to that deeper reality that we're all, we're all one family and, and the creator is our parent. And that though there are differences between us, we're being invited to reach past those differences, to embrace and connect with one another and create that new beloved community that Martin Luther king Jr. Talked about.
Speaker 0 00:22:54 Yeah. Um, yeah. Can you, can you go into that a little bit more as I, I, and you can do that one, or you can take another one, but, um, but I'm just kind of enjoying you talking about these, these first instincts, right. Because that phrasing, when you said, oh, I'll tell you that phrasing when you said, like overcome our biology. Right? Like the first thing I thought was, well, yes, God wants our minds transformed, but I'm like, Jesus really specifically said he actually wants us to be born again. So we're living as embodied creatures created by him. Um, and he loves that, right. He became embodied too, and we have to overcome our biology and yeah, it's not our
Speaker 2 00:23:41 Bodies. Aren't bad bodies. Aren't bad. Right. They're not, they're not the, uh, they're not the ultimate guide to life either. And so, and so Jesus often used this language, uh, repent or reimagine or rethink your thinking you in the sermon on the Mount, he says, you've heard that it's said, but I tell you. And so it's like, okay, we get these first gut instincts chill for a minute and consider, is that the whole picture? Or could I see this in a different way? And, um, you know, if we're going to do the talk about this, just in purely sort of neuroscience terms, learning to learning, to live from the prefrontal cortex, rather than the, you know, amygdala and the middle and lower brain, like let the smart part of us lead the way. And my friend Kirk Thompson loves to talk about this about that's the mind of Christ is that order of, um, you know, getting access to that CA being calm enough to see clearly that's part of, part of spiritual formation.
Speaker 0 00:24:47 I'm going to interrupt you for just a second, because, um, when you were talking about Jesus using the language repent or, or re-imagine, and, um, my husband and I is to travel a little, um, in the middle east. And we spent quite a bit of time in Israel. And when we would talk with other believers specifically is Israeli Jewish believers. When we would talk with them. And you mentioned earlier, this, this was your time to give your testimony, right? You were going to, you're going to talk about and evangelical language that I grew up, and you're going to talk about the time he got saved, right? Or the time you met Jesus or whatever that is asked him into your heart or something, something along these lines. But if you ask to hear the testimony of most of the Israeli believers that we came into contact with, they start telling it with those words I repented when, and it was wild the first few times we heard it. Right. But that's the language that they used, um, was, this was when I repented, this was when I turned around. This was when I re-imagined, right. This was, this was when, and, and I just loved that because, right. What, and what a different take on what's happening when we give everything we have to Jesus like this, this is when I repented. Right.
Speaker 2 00:26:08 And I think that's a, that's not a one-time event. I think it's like, we're, we're, I'm going to be, I'm going to be repenting or re-imagining until my last breaths. Right. And we've been doing labs on the nine foot path for several years now. So I lead a group through a real authentic journey and taking on practices and experiments. And, um, I tell them, I've, I've gone through this journey probably 15 times now. And I get something out of it every time, because I feel more invited to move from that instinct first instinct into a new posture towards life. And it's, I'm in process on it. And hopefully over days and months of years, more of my time is spent living in open-handed trust. More of my time is spent not thinking in terms of us and them, but reaching past differences, et cetera. Can you talk
Speaker 0 00:27:08 About, um, something that I think as it, I feel maybe, um, coming out of 20, 20 we're we're we experienced a lot as a, as a world, as a nation, as a body of believers. Um, and I hope I, this is what I'm seeing, at least in my community and, and, um, and in myself, but I feel like many of in the church are being awakened to the practice of lament. Um, and you talk about that in the book as, as one of these, this is, this is not the first instinct. Um, but can you talk to us about, um, about that, the attitude about lament, because, and, and, and what, you know, what, what is Jesus describing there?
Speaker 2 00:27:57 Yeah. Um, this is probably the beatitude that comes as the greatest surprise for, um, for Western, um, followers, people in general, in Western followers of Jesus. Is it the second beatitude is blessed, are those who mourn it's like Jesus saying happier you when you're unhappy, what's up with that. And, um, so I think the first instinct that th that this Beatrice is addressing is that instinct towards pain, avoidance, you, um, you touch a hot stove and your, your hand automatically pulls away. We want to pull away from what's painful. So when you and I were small, uh, when, when someone saw us crying, they're like, how do we get that child to stop crying? And, uh, what's wrong. Can, can I get you a snack or these days it's look, look, look at this cool, funny video on my phone, right? Some way of getting attention off of what's hard.
Speaker 2 00:28:59 And then as we got, um, as we developed more and got older, we found our own genius ways of avoidance and numbing out and escaping from pain. And it's, it's the food and drink we can put in our bodies. It's the, it's our, it's our screens and devices. It's, it's our Netflix queue and things that we can buy or take, or, um, for some of it's it's, it's just working more. So we don't have to face what's hard at home or, or the pain we've had in our lives. And so I think pain avoidance is that first instinct. And, um, it may have been necessary. Like, uh, if you've gone through trauma, you can't handle the processing of all the right away. And so sometimes we have to, our brains will actually set it aside for a while, but, um, but then we also choose to avoid pain.
Speaker 2 00:29:59 And, um, as anybody in recovery knows, when you do that, the pain only goes deeper. If you stay numbed out that God's designed us to sit with pain, to grieve, to feel the feels and ancient people knew how to do this. They tore their clothes, they poured ashes on their heads. They cried out and they even express their anger and disappointment with God. And a lot of us in the west, aren't, aren't aware that that's okay. In fact, a third of the Psalms are Psalms of lament or complaint, and we're being invited to, to feel the fields of fear, feel our pain, to talk to God about God, where are you? Have you fallen asleep, you know, to express that disappointment, um, to admit, to, to, to grieve about the ways that we've been hurt, but also the ways that we've, we've disappointed to cause pain for others.
Speaker 2 00:30:55 And then I think we're also in Jesus and Jesus modeled this. We're also invited to collectively grieve the ways that we have not lived up to the law of love as, as a whole, uh, as a groups of people. So at one point, Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem because it was a place of injustice where the profits were, um, murdered. And so he sat with that. He didn't murder those profits, but he sat and, and grieve the fact that on this land that happened. And, um, you know, I think that probably American culture has, uh, has what what's sometimes described as the inability to mourn where, you know, we live on land that was stolen. Uh, often Genesis genocide happened to the original peoples. Um, our economy was built, uh, largely on slavery and slave, uh, slave trade. Um, and, and there continues to be a lot of pain that, that happens at a systems and structural level.
Speaker 2 00:32:04 And you can see with the events of this past year and George <inaudible> police killing and the, um, new awareness that we have about the, uh, racial pain in our country and the call for justice. I, the first instinct to say, I didn't cause it, or it's not me, or it was them. And, and I think that defensiveness is not so helpful. And that, um, the promise of this beatitude is that if we'll sit with pain that, uh, personally we can experience, uh, as surprising sense of comfort and solace. And I think collectively, if we can sit with the pain of our mistakes and failures and, and sit with those who are mourning those, who've been victims of, uh, the underside of power that our culture can be healed and our nation can be healed, uh, as well. So this is a really powerful one. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:33:09 I love that sitting with, you know, um, because I think the two examples you give in the book or the one, the one that you just gave here, um, Jesus morning over the city of Jerusalem, but also of him crying before he raised Lazarus. Right. And it's like, he, he knew in that, in those moments to come, it was going to be well. And, and he didn't cause the pain. Um, and he knew it was going to be surprisingly better. Um, but he sat with people in their grief and in their morning. Um, and yeah, if, if we could learn to do that better as a community,
Speaker 2 00:33:58 I know so many people who have either left church or even left faith in God or belief in God, because they didn't feel like in their experience of church or Christianity, they didn't feel like there was space to mourn when they experienced disappointment or loss, the miscarriage, the D the disappointment, the, you know, um, that people were saying, I'll pray for you, or, you know, cheer up or saying, saying platitudes and trite sorts of things that ended up making them feel more alone than they did before. And so, um, you know, we have a lot to learn from, I think the black church on this, uh, and, and my wife, Lisa and I were privileged to be able to join a black led faith community this last year. And, um, most Sundays when we gather somebody has some real pain to share, um, they were the victim of racial injustice that week, you know, they were not treated well in a store or, or, um, by police or, um, somebody grandchild was killed in a drive by, or, or somebody's brother died of an overdose.
Speaker 2 00:35:12 And we sit, or someone is dealing with the trauma of being raped as a young person. And we sit with it together and really feel the fields. And, and, and then maybe at some point, uh, I know the leader of our community say, I just feel like we need to praise God and dance for a while. So let's get up and dance and move our bodies, like, um, you know, in real life, what's joyful and wonderful, and what's hard is all mixed together. And I think we, we think that the good life is about everything's awesome all the time. And if I have hard things <inaudible> right. And, but, but real life is joy and sorrow mixed together in almost every moment. Yeah. And so I think we could, we we'd benefit a lot from learning to hold the tension of that. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:05 I mean, and one of the things I thought of is, is also just like recognizing, I mean, I've, I hear people kind of use this, use this phrase. And so I don't know if I'm using it in the same way as them, but just kind of like holding space. So again, in the, in the, in the Jewish community, I didn't even think about talking about these things, but one thing they have in many traditions, um, is they have a, a time where they recite, um, a cottage, right. They call it a mourner's Kaddish writing. So in places where we have, we have been a part of that's it an opportunity where if someone has had a recent death in the family, or if someone is remembering the anniversary of a loved one, you know, I've loved one's death, or maybe their birthday, or just particularly having a hard moment in that grief, because that's what we know about the grief cycle.
Speaker 0 00:36:57 It's kind of unpredictable, right. And so you can just wake up one morning and be really overcome with grief, um, in an unexpected way. Um, and you know, they just recognize that that's a thing and stand by each other, um, you know, in those moments. And, um, it's really beautiful, but I think, you know, because that was, like you said, is modeled in the songs, right? Like, this is, this is an opportunity for lament is an opportunity for us to be really honest with God about what we're experiencing and what are, what we're feeling. And I think that we can feel good about doing that in part, because we saw Jesus be really honest
Speaker 1 00:37:38 About what he, yeah. What
Speaker 2 00:37:41 I've been thinking about this week is that, um, I, well, I've been telling people, I, um, like now that we have of vaccine availability and we can move around a little bit more I'm, I'm, I'm trying to look ahead. And when I try and look back over the last 17 months or so, uh, I feel like there's so much pain and trauma, you know, uh, like, like the, the, the George Floyd killing and that what, and the awakening we had about that. We had wildfires in California one day, the sun never showed, and it was dark orange sky all day. And, uh, the fires are coming again now. Uh, but, um, uh, you know, a divided country in a very contested election. And it's like, it's, it's easy for me to go. I don't, I don't want to face what just happened. I want, I want, I want to just be happy.
Speaker 2 00:38:36 And I'm like, I think I might miss the opportunity. And we might miss the opportunity of what, of the wisdom and insight that we started to gain during COVID. Now that things are opening up. And I'm, I'm sort of feeling invited to be like, don't anesthetize yourself, re you know, those couple of months of, of reading books on, uh, systemic racism. Like this is a problem that's gone on for hundreds of years. And so those couple of months where we all really felt that collectively didn't solve it, but so can I stay engaged with pain? Um, the climate is changing weather w we, you know, and there are consequences. So can I stay engaged with, with that enough to go? What, how are we, God is God inviting us to respond to this crisis? You know? And so there's, I've been trying to think about, and, and, uh, in the book, I mentioned some practices and I'm trying to renew my, my practice of them this week of not automatically go in for my phone and scrolling news or social media, but having some time during the day where I'm just quiet.
Speaker 2 00:39:51 And I was grateful that I got to get up. I woke up early today and I went to pick up my phone and I'm like, no, I think I just need to go for a walk and collect my thoughts and be aware of God and be aware of what what's turning inside of me. Um, a lot of us probably, uh, if, if anybody else is like me develop some pretty awesome escape habits during COVID, and, and now I'm going, maybe I need to monitor my, the number hours I'm watching things and how much I'm snacking. And like, you know, this, this wasn't so helpful to, to, because we're, we, if we don't process the feelings, the pain only goes deeper. And so that's why, that's why Jesus invites us to actually make mourning and lament up fabric are a part of our lives. That's natural and normal and, uh, and helpful for us. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 0 00:40:51 It is, I think it's reminding me of, um, one of the places that you go in the book that really impacted me, but just talked about how these beatitudes are a progressive journey. And, and you mentioned it too, when you, when you talked about this, is this repentance, isn't a one-time thing, right? This is a, this is a continual thing. And, um, and you know, I, on the subject of grief, I remember years and years ago, it, it kind of felt like, um, everywhere I went, you know, I'd go to the OMS group. My, my babies were really little and someone would come and they would, they would talk about grief or, you know, I would, I would see in an ad for a book was, uh, the latest, you know, book on grief or something. And I just was like, pulling my hands up, like a BX, like stay away from me.
Speaker 0 00:41:41 I don't want it. I don't want to know anything about this. You know, I'm really awkward in grief. And I'm just, you know, like I'm terrible, I'm terrible at walking with people. And I don't want to experience it because it's scary, you know, and, and all of those things, but, um, like it's a boogie monster, like grief is a boogie monster or anything that would cause grief as a boogie monster. But I think the more, because of what you say kind of culturally, I think a lot of us were kind of trained to do that, whether we might use that language or not. But I think looking at this as a, all of these, right, like this is, it's not just grief is not just one big, giant thing. It's, it's a part of this journey, this everyday life. Um, you know, and, um, and letting it store up in some someplace, like you're saying only makes the pain go deeper. And so,
Speaker 2 00:42:32 And it leaks out right, right. Fatigue
Speaker 0 00:42:37 And, and other, and other things. Um, but this whole, this whole thing of like, just making, oh, shifting our consciousness, right. Where this is, this is the life that Jesus has called us to grief and have to be blessed, blessed are those who more, and this doesn't have to be a scary boogeyman thing. This is something that God sits with us. He has designed us for this. He understands the brokenness in the world and he grieved, um, we can grieve. Right. Um, but one of the places in the book that you talk about it in the invitation to surrender, and, um, and there's just almost at the very end of, of the beatitudes, but you talk about that invitation just to render in the context of, of non-violent response, um, which can also feel really scary. Right. Um, but kind of how I feel like you reckon reconcile that is putting it in the context of all the other beatitudes as this journey. So I'm not making as much sense as you can. Can you talk to us about that
Speaker 1 00:43:50 Journey and why that has to be a part of it?
Speaker 2 00:43:53 I'll just say just a quick comment on language, a couple of the beatitudes, when they're translated into English, it's Lester, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. And then, uh, later blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, so that, um, in the original language, the word there means something more akin to justice than righteousness. So in the Western mind, we tend to think of righteousness as rights, right? Legal standing with the creator of the universe. That's what it means to be righteous, but in an NT helps us with this and explaining that that actually means to, to be righteous means, right. Relationship with the creator that translates into, um, living rightly and justly with our neighbor. And so a lot of times it feels good to do good. But what about those times when you're trying to do good or just minding your own business and your people are ungrateful, they, they falsely accused you, um, you're mistreated and how do we respond?
Speaker 2 00:45:06 And so, um, the, the call of the gospel, the invitation of the gospel is not to retaliate when we're mistreated. And, but because that's our first instinct, I was walking across the street in Wichita with my wife a couple of years ago on a beautiful sunset night. And, um, a guy w a guy was in a souped up car, waiting at the stoplight. And when he saw us pass, he revved his engine and then let the car lurch forward into the crosswalk, like intention. And I quick got Lisa out of the way. My heart's beating fast. I look back and he was laughing at us. He'd done it on purpose to scare us. And immediately I'm thinking, I want to say cuss words. I want to throw, I want to look for a brick to throw through the windshield of his car. So that's our first instinct is to retaliate wins when we're mistreated.
Speaker 2 00:46:09 And so the call, the invitation of the gospel is to go from that first consciousness to the higher consciousness, because whenever, when I'm mistreated and I retaliate it perpetuates the cycle of evil in the world, um, evil wins. But, um, so the, so the sermon on the Mount, in the sermon on the Mount, Jesus invites us to turn the other cheek, love our love, our love, not just our neighbors, but love our enemies. Give to the one who asks you do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. If someone sues you and takes, takes your coat, give me your shirt as well. You know, like a radical commitment to non-violence because it, it, it actually takes the energy out of evil, but that imitation can sound not so good if you've been the victim of mistreatment or trauma, is Jesus saying, just lie down and take it.
Speaker 2 00:47:06 And in the book, what I suggest is no, you have to see this invitation towards nonviolence in the context of the whole of the beatitudes. So, um, he's not saying let people walk all over you or stay in an abusive situation. The ordering is important. Uh, what if the beatitudes map, a progressive journey of spiritual first trust in the creators care, then limit what's broken and wait for comfort, affirm your inherent dignity and worth, embrace your agency and power. Tell the, uh, receive mercy and respond with compassion, tell the truth and live whole heartedly, reach past differences, and then surrender to suffering. And non-violence. So if we start there, it doesn't sound so good. But if you have those other tools and awareness, then I think that gives us sort of the strength to be in that space.
Speaker 0 00:48:03 Yeah. When, when I was reading this, and even when you were, when you were communicating it just now, um, I was talking with, um, Lisa Sharon Harper. At one point, we were talking about how, when there may be a point where God wants to get us to, and we're, we're outside of that point and many times getting there does not look like just going straight in. It looks like, or actually, I guess her, she was kind of doing it the opposite way coming out, but either way it looks more like a spiral kind of, and I'm imagining like one of these like prayer mazes, right, where you're, you're going around and around and around, and process is progressed. Journey is not going to be this straight line. We're going to get opportunity every circle around to, to live in trust, to lament, to affirm dignity, right. To receive mercy.
Speaker 0 00:48:59 And we're going to get more opportunity to tell the truth, and we're going to kind of spiral right. In a good way toward where God ultimately wants us to be. And like you said, at the beginning, we're, we're going to be continually doing this. It's not like we're going to have some sort of arrival point or something, but, but even in this progressive, um, it makes me excited to think about that invitation because sometimes I miss an invitation and sometimes I miss the event. Right. And sometimes I go, oh, credit, if I could go back and do that again. But usually God's faithful to give me another chance.
Speaker 2 00:49:41 Yeah. The good thing, you always have another chance. Right.
Speaker 0 00:49:44 I get a lot of those, um, other chances, um, but you know, thinking about that, um, that nonviolence, but being a part of this, of this larger journey and this larger picture of the attitudes, um, it just makes me so grateful. You know,
Speaker 2 00:50:01 I think to, uh, honesty or authenticity is so important to our spiritual development. Um, that's why they should. And, uh, aren't so good because we first need to say, where am I at right now in this process? And to explore that and to, to develop some self-awareness about it. And that's the first step to, to be, to be honest about where we're at, I want to, I want to get even, you know, as an example, um, and then go, is there a better way, you know, is there a deeper reality that I can access or affirm that would help me see my, myself and my situation in a, in a different, in a different way, from a higher state of consciousness, the con I call it the consciousness of the kingdom of God.
Speaker 0 00:50:56 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, mark, I'm having, I'm having so much fun. I'm going to look up one scripture, um, because that what you made me, you made me think of it. And now I can't, I can't remember really. I couldn't remember unless I probably sang it and I don't know that we want me to sing it, go for it. That'd be great. Um, but it made me, but it made me think of this. Um, second Peter one, five through eight, right? So for this very reason, we make every effort to add to your faith goodness, and to goodness knowledge and to knowledge self-control and to self-control perseverance and to perseverance godliness and to godliness mutual affection into mutual affection love. And this is the part for, if you possess these qualities where, how in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Right. And we use these motions of like, it looks like a stair-step, right. We're just going up. If you possess these qualities in increasing measure, right. This spiral of fear, we're going to be aware that we're adding, we're adding to our faith every day by these, by these things. And God anticipates that that's a part of our process, right?
Speaker 2 00:52:11 Yeah. I I'd also say we need companions for the journey. Like, um, so, uh, that's why I hope, I hope people will obviously, um, pick up the book, but it's, it's more of, I don't think it's the, it's not, it's not the end point. It's the, it's an invitation to actually go on the journey with others to, to go, could we take on some practices together, experiment with this, the, this new way that Jesus is inviting us into and then see where it takes us. So, in addition to the book, there's a, there's a study guide that actually worked on like a mad scientist for a couple of years that can be found at nine-fold path.org. And, um, we're actually scheduling new lab. We call them labs, uh, for the fall, for leaders who want to get a bit of training to help, help them prepare, to take a group through the book. And, um, I've just seen so much life change for people as we've been in community together, taking, exploring these things, being honest and taking on practices. And then reflecting on that, how, how did that go? And what did I realize and learn about myself in the process?
Speaker 0 00:53:24 I love it where besides a nine-fold path.org, where can we find you? Do you hang out anywhere on, on social media or online? Go,
Speaker 2 00:53:34 Definitely check out my website, mark scandrett.com and I'm on all the socials, or most of them are easy to find. Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:53:46 Mark, do you have any parting words that you'd like to leave us with on all of this?
Speaker 2 00:53:51 Well, I'd love, I'd love to close with a prayer from the book that sort of summarizes the invitation of the beatitudes. Maybe we could, we could pray it together. Let's do that Lord today. May we live with open hands mourn what's broken in us and around us serve one another with self-respect use our power for good. Look with compassion. Walk in honesty, reach past difference to be pacemakers, suffer for love and live fearlessly, following your way of a radical love. Amen.
Speaker 0 00:54:36 Amen. Thank you so much, mark. Great to be with you, Alexis. The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
