Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 2 00:00:39 I'm your host, Phillip Marinello joined by my friends and co-hosts here Trevor Aiken, howdy and Vincent Edwards. What's going on. And, uh, I'll just jump right into it. And our special guests today, that makes total sense. Exclamation point podcast host Alexis besetting.
Speaker 1 00:00:59 What's up guys.
Speaker 2 00:01:01 What's gone on what is up. So we failed.
Speaker 3 00:01:06 Well, yeah, Phillip was just like, uh, Hey, what, what, uh, what guests we have on tonight. We should, we should totally have, uh, Alexis on. Right. And we were like, yeah, that totally makes sense.
Speaker 2 00:01:15 Nice. From Trefor with the slam dunk dead.
Speaker 1 00:01:21 I love it. I live with a dad who has dad jokes, like continually all the time. And it's the problem is that our youngest is seven now and that's like his prime time audience. And so I'm like, when he ages out, like, I don't know what we're going to do in life for an audience. We're going to have to find other centers to
Speaker 2 00:01:39 Send him to the comedy school. Huh.
Speaker 3 00:01:41 And then your kid starts, starts repeating the dad jokes. Like
Speaker 1 00:01:46 Yeah. That's like story of my life. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:01:48 So then you get all the remixes and everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:01:51 Do you have any that like genuinely make you laugh?
Speaker 1 00:01:55 No, not anymore. Probably
Speaker 2 00:01:59 Six or seven just on rotation.
Speaker 1 00:02:01 I mean, pretty much, but you know, it's like really, really sophisticated humor. Like, you know, the bean song at dinner. Um, and you know, I mean, things like this, Ryan, so
Speaker 2 00:02:12 Hey, seven year old. I mean, if, if you, you said you're old, your youngest is a boy. Yes. I think he'll find that funny for many years to come if we're being offered.
Speaker 1 00:02:21 Yes, of course. There's no lack of that kind of humor at our house.
Speaker 3 00:02:25 So Alexis for, for, um, those that maybe don't know, tell, tell some of the folks in the audience like who you are, what you do. Tell us, tell them a little bit about the, about the podcast.
Speaker 1 00:02:37 Yeah. So I mean, that's how we met, right? I mean, we haven't like real met, but that's how we,
Speaker 2 00:02:43 I think I was doing research on a guest and just listened to your episode and started following you. I think that's what happened.
Speaker 1 00:02:50 Awesome. Yeah. I can't remember. I think we showed up, we just like showed up in each other's feed one day and I was like, man, these guys are cool. Um, yeah. So I mean, that's how we met, but this is like, you know, um, my kind of hobby that was never intended to, I don't know to be, I guess. So I do host a podcast called that makes total sense where we explore God's generosity and justice. That's kind of our tagline. Um, my husband edits it and produces it. And, um, he is amazing when I speak with my guests, I tell them that upfront. And then there are oftentimes during the show while we're all stopped and I'll say, okay, Seth, I'm going to need you to like break all this up right here. Or like I say something stupid or like the dog barks, you know, or something.
Speaker 1 00:03:35 And I'm like, okay. And so I'll tell them, like, I don't think your name is Seth, but sometimes I may talk to you. Like I imagine your husband is off at work or whatever. Um, so yeah, so I mean, I'm a, I'm a wife, I'm a mom. We live in Houston. We have four kids. Um, my part-time homeschool, two of them now. It used to be three. Now I just part-time homeschool my daughters. And then I went back to school, uh, last year, which is like stupid and crazy and totally fun. It's like the most fun thing I do, um, in life right now. So yeah. So that's what that's kind of who I am and what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 2 00:04:13 That's awesome. So I'm curious Alexis you're at over 110 episodes here with that makes total sense. One of the things that I was curious about as far as like goals, when you started versus maybe how they've evolved over 110 plus episodes, why did you start it and like what keeps you going on it?
Speaker 1 00:04:31 Yeah. No, that's, that's great. Um, so I never like wanted to do a podcast, you know, like I, I listened to a lot and um, you know, but it was never just one of those things like, oh yeah. I'm like, I'm totally going to do that, but it actually started. So before we started recording, I was telling you guys about a friend of mine who, um, you know, we were talking about seminary and apologetics and all that. And anyway, she and her husband were over for dinner a couple of years ago. Now I can say that. And at the time I was doing a little bit of like, kind of part-time, uh, personal finance coaching, just kind of like getting my feet back wet in the water of work, you know, after I'd been staying home with my kids for, at that point, it was like seven years.
Speaker 1 00:05:16 Full-time, um, I'd stayed home with my kids. And I had done a couple of podcast interviews, just kind of surrounding that. And my girlfriend says, okay, here's this was crazy. I haven't like really shared this like out, but here we go. So she was like, um, she was like, okay, here's the thing. I don't care anything about personal finance and I don't listen to podcasts, but I just sat and listened to you talk about money for 30 minutes on a podcast. So I felt, I feel like I've asked you this before, and I'm going to ask you again, why do you not have a podcast? And I was kind of like, I don't know what the crap you're talking about. Like know it was like one of these. And then like the whole evening, maybe we, we had had dinner by that point and dessert and all, and it just kind of pivoted to where we were like, wait a minute, what, like, are we actually having this conversation?
Speaker 1 00:06:10 And, um, you know, we talked about it that night with them, with our good friends, we prayed about it. And then we just kind of kept the conversation going after they left. And, and, you know, from my end it was kind of like, oh my goodness. I, I think I could totally do that. You know, I'm like, I just really enjoy, I enjoy having good conversation. Right. Like I think I'm, you know, kind of decent at communicating. Like I think I could probably do that. And then at the same time my husband was like, Hey, if we think we want to give it a shot, we have like, everything we need, you know, like he's a musician, not by trade, but you know, he's a, he's a really good, you know, amateur musician and he's like, he has an, he's a gear junkie. So like we have all this stuff, right.
Speaker 1 00:06:54 Yeah. I mean, you know, we had, we had kind of all the stuff. And so, um, so at the beginning it was more, I knew at that point. I know it sounds odd at that point, even though I was doing some of that personal finance stuff, I knew that wasn't just going to be my bread and butter, you know? Um, my, my first master's is in, um, organizational studies and social justice. And so that was kind of where my heart had always been, but this was, that was where I was at the moment. And so everyone was like, oh, that makes total sense. Are you going to do it like C E N T S? And I was like, no, because I don't want to, like, first of all, no, but second of all, like, I don't want to like put myself in that box.
Speaker 1 00:07:34 Right. You know, I'm like, I don't want to just talk about money. I want to be able to talk about a lot of other things. Um, and so we did have a few episodes where I did talk about money, but mostly it was not, it was just kind of like, what's, what's interesting. I grew up in kind of a background where religiously my tradition was a lot more about kind of having all the right answers. And I was realizing that wasn't like, kind of working for me anymore. So I just kind of had this little, you know, shift in my, in my paradigm of like, what if I just kind of learned how to ask better questions? You know? Like what would that look like on the ground? Um, for me, and what if, you know, what, if this podcast would be a place where we kind of encouraged people to start asking good questions, you know, instead of being super concerned about having like, you know, all the right answers or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 4 00:08:31 You're over a hundred episodes at this point of the recording and you've had some pretty notable people, I would say in Christian I'm you, Justin give me, you've had, uh, jemartisby Vince Braun, two boys show, um, show Baraka,
Speaker 1 00:08:47 You guys up on show. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:08:49 And so I guess the, the question that stems from that is like what, what's some like gyms of information that you've learned from having so many great guests.
Speaker 1 00:09:01 Good night. That's that's a really good one. So, I mean, we were kind of chatting about it before and Philip, you, you were kind of asking about it. Like I ha I do happen to have a lot of authors on
Speaker 2 00:09:12 Reading machine. Yeah. I just finished another book in a week to talk to somebody it's like good night.
Speaker 1 00:09:20 Well, I mean, that's part of his, like a lot of the learning, you know, Vincent is coming from the conversations for sure. But I am kind of one of these where I'm like, I would, I'm like still a little bit like insecure, right. I mean a hundred episodes in for sure. I get like nervous every time I sign on and stuff like that. And I'm like, I just need to know enough again, to be able to ask an intelligent question. Right. And so a lot of what I say I've learned has come from the reading beforehand. Um, but then it's just like invaluable to be able to process that information with the person who wrote it. Right. Um, so, you know, you mentioned Justin Guinea and like from the podcast that I did with him, we started talking about Fannie Lou Hamer. And I had just studied her for one of my classes.
Speaker 1 00:10:12 And he just got really emotional when we were, when we were talking about her. And, and so, you know, kind of one of those gems from that conversation was just like, this is not an intellectual only discussion, right. When we're talking about politics, it's not just about facts or statistics or anything like this. Right. I mean, for all of us, I recognize that it's emotional, but there's, there's emotion there. There's history. There there's tradition there, you know, there's, um, roots, you know, in S you know, who are we, who are with looking back at and saying, I want to do it like she did it. Right. Um, and, and kind of who are we trying to be formed, you know, into that we can move forward, you know, with whatever it is that we're, that we're working on, you know, whatever we feel called to.
Speaker 1 00:10:58 So, so that was an example from Justin's episode. But, you know, I think about, I had, um, Sarah Jackson on from Casa de paths in Colorado, and they run, um, a house where they, um, take in people who are inside of the immigration system and reading her book was like one of the most eye-opening experiences that I had had. And I just kinda realized, oh, I was just kind of in an uninformed way, not necessarily registering what I was doing. I was just kind of like walking up party line almost when it came to that discussion in that topic and reading her book, you know, it was stories about real people and, and kind of how she had some of her views had formed and changed. Um, and then being able to process that with her online and, and like you guys talked about before we started recording, that's kind of the cool thing about what we do is we get to do some of that during the recording, but then we get to do some of it, you know, a lot of times off air to where we get to be a little bit, you know, candid and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 00:11:59 And, and there, you know, my guests, I'm sure you guys feel the same way. They're just so generous with their time, um, and, and with what they offer us. And so I'm so thankful.
Speaker 2 00:12:10 Yeah. Alexis, I just scroll back through all of our Instagram DMS. The very first place we connected was when I won the liturgy of politics. When you Caitlin on listen to your Caitlin show and I won the books for me.
Speaker 1 00:12:25 Awesome. That, I mean, cause you guys had Kaitlin too on the show,
Speaker 2 00:12:32 The geopolitics, shit's a simple book. I think it's w it's one of my best reads of the year. And like maybe one of the first books, I would hand a Christian who is genuinely trying to kind of parse through the not party line, wanting to care about people and care about God. She she's a really incredible voice. It was a genuinely wonderful book, but that's the kind of book that could be very, like, it could easily go into like cliches or kind of pander, or just kind of like be more emotional and like, oh, we need justice. And the traditional data does falling short on these things, but like, it was simple in a way it was just very, very impactful and on point, like I, I, Jen, and the way she handled it too, I could see, I mean, the holy spirit can do anything, but just the way she approached it in the way it was packaged and the structure and the format of it, like I could really see that changing hearts and minds.
Speaker 1 00:13:30 Oh, I, I agree. 100% that book was, it was definitely one of my number one reads also, in fact, my copy is loaned out right now. I think I ended up with two and they may both be gone at this point. Um, yeah. And my, my dad, um, his he's a journalist, but his graduate degree is in political science. And I was like, you, you have to like, I'm requiring that you read this book. Right. Like it was so incredible. I think Michael Ware wrote the forward of that. And he said something like, you know, you can imagine that your church has basically hired someone to think about this, right. To think about this, to research it and to come back and give you a report. Right. And this book is that report. He says something, this book is a, is a gift to the church. And I just think about that because I, I love the way that sheath thinks about things and then how she's able to, to communicate it. Yeah. I completely agree. That was one of, one of my best.
Speaker 2 00:14:26 Thanks for the opportunity for winning that book, Caitlin, and, uh, your IVP or wrap. That was, that was good. One of the things I've listened to a number of your shows and I've enjoyed all the ones I've listened to. Um, I know you've read the books. Do you have like go-to questions specifically, or do you try to tailor things to each person? How do you kind of approach that?
Speaker 1 00:14:48 Yeah, I don't, I don't have go-to questions. Um, what I have learned, um, and I've had some, some authors, you know, because like, like you guys did, we had some, some prerecording talk, right. And there was always a little bit of that. And so I usually ask my guests, like, what would be a win for them, you know, at the end of this conversation, like what would be a win for you? And what I'm learning, um, is that many of them are saying a, a genuine conversation, right. They just want to be able to have a really, really just kind of, you know, heart to heart, good, genuine conversation. And many of them will say, you know, they want to hit what hit me, which is kind of cool. Right. So they want to be able to hit on the topics that stood out to me when I read the book or they want to be able to, you know, see what touched me or what impacted me and then kind of go from there.
Speaker 1 00:15:47 And, and that feeds into the first thing. Right. That makes them for kind of a more genuine conversation because I'm actually able to respond, you know, to what impacted me, um, in the book. And, um, and sometimes I will have guests that will specifically ask for questions ahead of time. But in that case, even still, I just kind of go through and I, I try and yeah, I do try and tailor it. I try and tailor it to just like, what stood out to me? What do I, what's the point? I think they're trying to make, um, you know, high level, not summary type stuff, but, you know, what's the overarching thesis and see if we can, if we can focus on that. But I don't know. Does that answer your question? Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:16:29 That's a good one. I wanted to just ask a particular question. The tagline in your podcast, it's talking about generosity and justice. God's exploring God's generosity and justice. And I think, you know, privy to what we've seen recently in the, in the last few years, several years, uh, those two things kind of seem juxtaposed or against each other. And so how, how did you kind of come up with this idea that I want to merge those two and kind of display that in a way where they don't have to fight each other,
Speaker 1 00:17:09 Man, you guys pay him the big bucks, don't you? So these are like the good
Speaker 4 00:17:18 Percentage of the payroll that we pay out to can say he gets the 100%.
Speaker 1 00:17:26 It's kind of like when we used it, when I was exclusively staying home. Right. I was like, look at what I did. You know, like I was so proud of some thing I'd accomplished or something, and my husband come home and he'd be like 50% raise. I'm like, well, 50% of zero is
Speaker 1 00:17:43 Still zero. Um, yeah. So I mean, part of that and in all honesty, so what we changed is you talked about pivot or something early. I think bullet, maybe you're asking that earlier kind of how has this evolved a little bit? So the truth has Vincent that that tagline came in part as I was trying to transition the subject matter of the podcast. Um, because, you know, we had started off kind of talking about money and finances a little bit, or at least at least leaving the opening for that to be in existence. Um, and, and I say that, but the first several episodes really didn't have anything to do with it. And we only, we only had a few, but, um, I kinda wanted to, you know, use that as a little bit of a transition because that was something that I was learning at the time.
Speaker 1 00:18:32 You know, when I was saying how I kind of grew up in a tradition that was really focused on having the right answers for me, some of what that translated to was a bit of a scarcity mindset. Um, not just with money, but just with God's goodness. Right, man, there's kind of only so much of whatever it is that God is, is, is pouring out or, or that exists. And a scarcity mindset can be really damaging to our relationship with the Lord. I think, um, when we, when we think that there's only so much that he's willing to give or only so much that he's able to give, I think that can be really damaging and not everyone struggles with that. But, um, but I think that I realized that that was probably at the root of some of my kind of faith struggles, you know, was, was thinking through that.
Speaker 1 00:19:26 And so, and so that's the generosity, you know, portion in part was, was God is a giver. And so how can we, you know, as image bearers, you know, how can we explore that so that we can also be givers and we can be generous with ourselves, but then the justice part of it. Right. Um, I started doing a lot of interviews in 2020 where I was like, we're just going to talk about this. And, and I reached out to some people that I thought I'll just give it a shot. Right. I don't know if they'll come on, but I'll give it a shot. Um, Malcolm Foley was one of those guys, uh, now doctor the Reverend Dr. McQuinn Foley as of a few days ago. Um, and he was so gracious to come on the show and, um, and Jamar came on and Daniel Hill came on and he was
Speaker 1 00:20:22 Right. He was incredible, incredible. Um, but yeah, just kind of had some of these guys on that. Um, we're having the conversations, they had been having these conversations right. For, for years and years. And, um, and I thought, man, if I can, if I can jump in, um, I'd, I'd love to, you know, talk to them about this and there's a justice side to God, too. Right. Like you said. Um, but I don't think that they're, I don't think that those two parts of God are, um, are meant to be entirely juxtaposed. Not at all. It feels like it, um, you know, it feels like it sometimes, but I don't, but I don't think that, um, I don't think that it is. I think that I think that the justice face of God, that we see is, uh, his generosity.
Speaker 2 00:21:08 Uh, so the justice part, Alexis, I got two different kinds of questions. You can kind of pick how you want to answer them, but, uh, okay. The two types of people I have in mind, uh, one is so a lot of our listeners are onboard kind of with like, God is a God of justice. This matters to him. Um, maybe for those people who maybe are lacking in just awareness and understanding things like that, what's a good place to start for them. And then I know we also have listeners who are, maybe say like open, but very cautious. Like what are some good starting points? Like you said, you've had a lot of people on a lot of them have books and, uh, lecture series and other good resources. What are some good places maybe for those different types of listeners to start, or kind of throw a third one in there to spice it up, um, for maybe our friends and family who maybe we want to kind of help nurture along in some of these conversations, what are some good places for those various sorts of people to, uh, to start with?
Speaker 1 00:22:08 Yeah. Um, so I will say, I just want to say, like, I appreciate the question and I recognize that this is a thing, right. Um, it's an easier conversation for me to have in part, um, because of my education, you know, my, my master's degree, um, had a very large social justice aspect. And so, um, I've been having those conversations, um, for a long time. And so in part, I recognize that while some of this is familiar to me, it's totally not to everybody. Um, so I do like recognize that and say, that's totally a thing.
Speaker 2 00:22:44 A lot of people are coming at it from like, with suspicion, just because of the, I'm trying not to use the word tribalism as much now, but just the, the environments that people are raised in and are coming from, they're kind of taught to be suspicious of these things.
Speaker 1 00:22:59 Oh, for sure. I mean, like I was working on a project years ago, this was probably three or four years ago, I guess at this point. So pre podcast, pre 20, 20 pre you know, any of this stuff. And, and, um, I ended up through kind of a series of, of contacts getting in touch with a retired pastor from a mainline denom actually here in Houston, but, um, of a large church. And so we were having this conversation. I was, uh, talking with him about my project that, you know, we'd been connected about. And in the subtitle of this project, I just had the, I just had the words, social justice and we're on the phone. And he says, look, if you want basically anybody in the white evangelical space to even look at this project, you're going to have to take that out. Like you're, it's, it's, it's going to be a non-starter.
Speaker 1 00:23:54 Yeah, yeah. And I was kind of like, thank you, no, right. I mean, at that point, you know, because I I've always kind of pushed back, you know, in this space. So, I mean, I think part of it is that there, there is. Yeah. There's suspicion. Um, but I think a starting place, so I kind of have two, I have two books in mind. So since you, since you kind of asked about that, um, one is one that I did, one of my first author interviews that I did early, early in the podcast. Um, the author's name is Jean Bishop and she wrote a book actually she's written two, but we spoke with, um, we spoke about one of them and I actually, I ended up reading both of them. But the second one, the one that we talked about was actually about, um, Tim McVeigh's father, Tim McVeigh was the bomber in the Oklahoma city morose, uh, building bombing that happened in the nineties, um, in Oklahoma city.
Speaker 1 00:24:53 And I was living in Oklahoma at the time. Um, I was in middle school. And so I remember this, you know, well, and it was about Tim McVeigh's dad and the father of one of the victims of the bombing and how they, um, had reconciled these two fathers had. And gene has another story that is a personal story of hers, that her other book is about. And that is that her, um, her sister and brother-in-law and their unborn baby were murdered. And, um, she tells the story of how she deals with that. But specifically in this book, she speaks of how she deals with the, the convicted murderer and she's had interaction with him. And so when I think about a good starting place for justice, I think about how to the best that we can, how can we envision that God views justice? Um, I think that he is always in the business of redemption and restoration.
Speaker 1 00:26:05 And, um, so sometimes I think that we get suspicious of justice because it feels combative. We have to get someone who has done something and make sure someone pays for something. And you can kind of go down that road until you don't feel comfortable anymore. Um, or we can think about this in terms of, yes, God is righteous and he is holy. Um, and he is in the business of redemption, um, which is doesn't mean that we don't recognize hurts. Right. I think we do recognize hers, but that's what redemption is. It's it's recognition of some wounding that's happened. Right. And then it's allowing God to repair and restore what has gone wrong. Um, so that's one place that I would start
Speaker 3 00:26:56 With grace from the rubble. Was that it
Speaker 1 00:26:58 Grace from the rebel? Yes. That was the book that we, um, and then I think in the link to that I have, then I don't remember the name of the other book, but, um, something about a heart, I feel like. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. She has a, she has another book out that's, that's great. The one about the murderer. Um, but if people are looking at more kind of a systemic, um, starting place, I would say Dominic Gilliard's first book it's about the prison system. I was
Speaker 3 00:27:23 Just listening to that episode recently.
Speaker 1 00:27:25 Yeah. So, but that's a really good one because he talks about, um, that kind of restorative justice, as opposed to a retributive justice and, you know, looking at it from a biblical perspective and then also addressing, you know,
Speaker 3 00:27:39 Rethinking
Speaker 1 00:27:39 Incarceration, rethinking incarceration, thank you, Phillip. Yeah. On the ground, you know, what, what could that look like even systemically, right. And you know, where, why are we in the place we are systemically now he kind of goes through a lot of the history, but then thinking about it as a Christian, what could we look toward? Um, last one, reparations do Kwan. Um, Thompson is also a fantastic perspective, I think, um, on justice, you know, uh, duke Kwon and Gregory Thompson, I had do Quinn on the show and they talk about this really from the perspective of, as a believer, if you know, that someone has been stolen from, or someone has been hurt, what should our response be? And so they don't really go into the practical part at all. It's really just making the biblical argument. Um, now they're specifically doing it in the context of making a biblical argument for reparations when it's, you know, regarding the racial situation in America, but it is an overarching argument that can be used, um, you know, biblically, what, how should we respond as Christians? Where should our heart be? Um, when it comes to seeing that someone has been wounded or stolen from what should our response be?
Speaker 3 00:28:54 Yeah. There's some great perspectives and great conversations and everything to highlight. I wanted to go back to what you had said earlier about kind of transitions. And you're talking about the subtitle of the show. Cause I, I can hear like, underneath that, there's, it sounds like there's a lot of personal transition from, from a way of thinking from a, from a background, from a community. And I know that like, when you think those thoughts, sometimes that there's cost to that as well. And so I wonder if you'd be willing to talk a little bit about like that journey. Like what was the, maybe some of the timeline, how long ago was that you feel like you started on that journey? Um, what were some of the first things that you think were some inflection points on that and what was the cost, you know, in the real world for you along the way, um, as you've kind of explored these ideas and maybe try to put some of that in practice personally. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:29:54 I won't, I won't like to tell my life story here, but I will go back just a little bit because for me, it's kind of almost a full circle. That's kind of a feeling that I have. So, um, so I've talked about my background just a little bit. I heard, uh, I think it was David French. I was listening to the holy post at French, French Friday and he, and he,
Speaker 2 00:30:15 Oh man, they can just call David French every other way can be like, Hey, it's Friday, come on our show.
Speaker 3 00:30:21 Here's some ukulele listened to it,
Speaker 2 00:30:24 Clever titles to be like, Hey, really brilliant, famous busy person, come on our show. Right.
Speaker 1 00:30:30 And then they had it. Then, then they have a song. Right. Part of it. Anyway, it was great. Um, so I was listening to the most recent French Friday. I don't, I don't know, maybe it was the first one, I don't know, but it's a w David French was on. And he, he used, he said probably what I would say of my upbringing. We didn't call it fundamentalism, but it was totally fundamentalism. He called it like Neo. Right. He called it like Neo fundamentalism.
Speaker 3 00:30:56 We used to joke about, you know, putting the fun back in fundamentalism. How's our church.
Speaker 1 00:31:01 Yeah. No, my church took the fun out of fundamentalism. Okay. So this was, this was kinda where I grew up, but I was, I don't even know it was in this like AP English class right. In high school. And we were writing position papers. And I, one of the things that we, you know, that we could do for our sources was, was do an interview. And so I did an interview with my pastor and I was doing position paper on the death penalty. And I was against spoiler alert.
Speaker 3 00:31:37 Interestingly, just because you were like personally that position or was that just the position you took to write the paper?
Speaker 1 00:31:45 Yeah, I was personally that position. Okay. Yeah. It was personally that position. Um, so I went and had this interview and, and this, now I understand the naivety there. I feel like is understandable. Cause I was a teenager. Right. So I walk into his office. Right. And I, of course, like I had been there I'd been at church. Right. So I knew, but we didn't talk about stuff like that. Like no one talked about it from the pulpit. We're not talking about this in Sunday school class or whatever. Yeah. So in my naivety, I walk in thinking I can't wait for him to just completely defend my position. Like he's, he's completely supporting my position. You know why? Because he loves Jesus. So he's completely supporting my position. He did not like at all, like at all. And it got like a little heated now of course I was a 15 year old girl.
Speaker 1 00:32:41 So yeah. I mean, like it's crazy. And I left and I thought, wow, that did not go well. Was not what I anticipated. But things like that, this is the bad thing. This is why I say it's kind of circular things like that kept happening to me. Right. Or I kept, I kept, I kept pushing. But every time whether I was 15 or 25, I walked in with the naivety that whoever I was speaking with was going to share at least closely kind of is somewhere in the realm of my position. Be supportive of course, because they love Jesus, you know, and, and I'm kind of using that facetiously, but, but really, so I went, um, you know, one of my first jobs out of college was, um, doing state casework, right? So I'm like this place, this office, it's a state office. It's going to be swarming with Christians because we are defending the poor and needy and the vulnerable of our society.
Speaker 1 00:33:47 And no, it was not swarming with Christians again, spoiler alert. It was just, it just wasn't. Um, and not only was that this fine, they were probably, they got better paying jobs, but I was surprised at the pushback though. Right. So it's not the, just the place wasn't swarming with Christians. It was kind of like, you know, and I wasn't working in the, in the welfare system, but my, my colleagues were, were working like with TANIF and stuff like that. Right. I was doing, um, child protective services is kind of its own beast. But, um, but you know, it was, you, you're hearing things about how, you know, we shouldn't be helping these people and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and this drain on the system and yada yada, and I'm kind of like, oh, this feels like not what I'm reading. Yeah. This feels like not what I'm reading in the Bible.
Speaker 1 00:34:36 So anyway. Yeah. So things like that kind of kept happening to me. And then I go and I get my master's and, and, and think again, you know, kind of still I'm having these. And then I land in white evangelical prism and my views. It didn't change, but we also just didn't talk about it. I'm mixed, I'm, uh, Hispanic and white. And, um, and I have of course had experiences of, of brown, you know, marginalized people in America. But then I married a white guy and he enrolled with a good Italian name. So yeah. So I look, you know, kind of generically ethnic. And so people, you know, sometimes would, you know, would guess that I'm Italian or whatever, but, um, he didn't, he grew up in a, in a white community, um, pretty homogenous. And he had really no context for, um, for a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 1 00:35:34 But yeah, so, so, you know, I married this, married, this white from, uh, from a largely white community we're in steeped now in white evangelicalism. And so, I mean, I think you're right, Trevor. I think you're the one who asked the question. So, and then when a mod Arbery was, who got me in 2020, and I'm embarrassed to say that it wasn't anyone else before that. Um, in part, I wasn't keeping up with the news. That was the main thing I wasn't keeping up in the news. And, and like other people have mentioned like Christians of color are mentioning everyone before this Michael Brown was not mentioned from the pulpit, right. Freddie gray not mentioned from the, no one's mentioned that should
Speaker 2 00:36:16 Positively if they have been sure.
Speaker 1 00:36:18 Right. And so I'm not keeping up with the news, this isn't happening in my church community. Um, and, uh, mod Arbery, I mean, all we're all of us, right. It's 2020 where that's all we can do is be on our phones and be in the news. Right. Um, we're, we're stuck at home. Right. And one of my girlfriends commented on, um, on Instagram and she just said, I'm tired, I'm tired. You know? And that started a lot of the, of the deep personal conversations, you know, processing this with my friends and, and the same girlfriend of mine, she just said is we're crying together on the phone, you know, and all of this, and we're processing this and she says, Lex, there are people. Cause I'm saying, what can I do? Right. What can I do? And at the time, of course, I already had the podcast and she said, I'm sorry to tell you this. But there are some people who are only going to hear this message from someone who looks like you.
Speaker 1 00:37:14 And I was like, first of all, I don't want you to be right. But I have to listen to you and believe that you're right. And you know, second of all, that sucks. Right. Um, but then it's okay. I can, I can talk about this. I can try and educate myself. I can try and ask good questions. I can try and listen and I can try and encourage people to do the same thing, you know? And yeah. I mean, there were, I mean, I would say, I mean, there were, uh, there were a few costs. Right. You know, part of it, I think I was chatting with someone recently and I'm like, look, I think people are done having this conversation. I think some people are done having this conversation at this
Speaker 2 00:38:00 Point. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1 00:38:01 Heartbreaking. Yeah. I think everyone was interested for a few months until they weren't.
Speaker 2 00:38:06 Yeah. It's a lot of fatigue for a lot of different reasons. Yeah. Yeah. So thinking about, I just wanted to point something out, ask a question, kind of hear what you think, Alexis and Trevor and Vince. What I heard you say definitely rings true for me and my upbringing and my church going experience barring the last year and a half or so. Um, there is the rhetoric in conservative evangelicalism of like, we need to like be salt and light. We need to be in the world. We need to be in the world. Like vocation was always lifted up as good as like, not everybody needs to be a pastor, a missionary, like be a fill in the blank, be a, be a sales person, be a teacher, be a construct, like be thing, like be people in society go out and be salt and light.
Speaker 2 00:38:58 But like actually most of the people kind of did live in that bubble. Like you said, Alexis, because of your, your personal ethnicity and background, you got to see some of these things firsthand. I got to as well, like I grew up pretty low on the socioeconomic levels. So like I just kind of saw things. And I also assumed that like, people see these things, but like affluent, middle upper-class people just can kind of live in a bubble and just not realize the injustice going around. So we're called to go out and be salt and light yet functionally, we end up isolating ourselves. Like how can, how do we help people realize that they are actually isolating themselves versus going out and being salt and light. And that's for everybody on the call? What do we think about that? Okay.
Speaker 3 00:39:46 So one, there's a, I think there's a, I think there's a couple, a couple of ways, like one, you're asking a church question, right? So we're talking about people in the church. How do we, how do we realize? And, and here's a thing I think at some level people do realize it.
Speaker 2 00:40:02 They just don't know what to
Speaker 3 00:40:03 Do about it. Yeah. Because like the adage is, there's a way the old adage is there is, there's always two things you can talk about from the pulpit and convict people and that's prayer and evangelism or an event evangelism every time. Right. But that's the thing is like if those two things and especially on the evangelism side, it's because like people know they don't do well enough for whatever that is Because we have disciplines that we're not discipling our people in. Right. So we just have this general, honestly, it feels
Speaker 2 00:40:46 Ignorance.
Speaker 3 00:40:47 Well, I think, yeah, well maybe not, but I think if we did it right, they would like, if we, if we educated correctly on that, what I'm saying is you could maybe tap into, there's maybe a way to tap into the fundamental underlying dissatisfaction people have with their obedience in that area, which is generally acknowledged to exist. There's gotta be some way to tap into that. And then if you could put a positive turn to it, such that you had a, Hey, this isn't working, like expecting you to have water cooler conversations with your coworkers, that somehow gets them to whatever the plan is, come to church or, you know, share their life with you or start talking to you as their counselor or something instead of their therapists, whatever stuff like that happens. But like, if that's the kind of the mindset that people are in, and then it just doesn't happen because everybody's too busy trying to do the best. They can make money and live the comfortable American dream Christian family life then. Yeah. They, they fall short of that goal because it's not really ever pursued in a way that's like connecting with your neighbors, you know, living a holistic life.
Speaker 2 00:42:02 Yeah. I don't think that it's even a goal. And I think it's the identity of the conservative equals this and that's not biblically defined. It's like politically and socially defined. Like, I don't think it's a biblical discipleship problem. I, you can break everything down to that. Like, yes, yes. It is a biblical discipleship problem. But like, I think it's the identity confusion because he's a very smart and thoughtful guy. And like, it took him a very long time to realize like, Hey, like some of these, these pastors and authors and speakers, like they're not, this is not a good thing that they're be banging the drum of like be scared of CRT.
Speaker 1 00:42:46 Yeah. I mean, I don't know the thing that came to my mind, I heard, uh, Russell Berry was on another podcast where he was talking about, um, epistemology. Right. And so I think, you know, I think the identity is a piece of it, for sure. I think it's kind of the, you know, an overarching piece discipleship for sure. Right. Um, you know, that's kind of what a lot of people are, are I think, I think rightfully banging the drum on right now is, you know, a pastor or your small group isn't discipling as much as your news network is, or your social media, right. At the time, they just don't have time to do it. Um, because people are on, there are on, you know, their news, their news thing where there, or the people around them, you know, are impacting them on a, on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 00:43:28 But I think part of this identity piece going to the epistemology is that this part of what the identity tells us is that we have everything we need to know from the Bible and from a plain reading kind of in quotes, a plain reading of the Bible. Right? And so if I have a brother or sister, tell me, this has not been my experience. My experience has been that when I am out I'm racially profiled, my experience has been that when I get stopped by a police officer, my heart races and I turn the phone on and my mom knows to listen for me. Right. My experience has been XYZ, but part of this identity says your experience. Can't tell me as much as I can learn from the Bible. And I'm not saying that the Bible isn't valuable. And of course, that's not what I'm saying. I'm a seminary student. The Bible is the most valuable texts that we have. But what I'm saying is there are other ways to know things about life.
Speaker 4 00:44:34 There are other knowledges in the world and the Bible actually. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:38 Which we actually acknowledged functionally in all the ways that we esteem expertise in fields. Like,
Speaker 1 00:44:46 But in part, um, we see this happening and this identity though, we see this happening in other areas too. Right. So I got the question recently because my husband, um, who, by the way, I will just say is like, he, he had kind of his like, oh my goodness moment, you know? Um, and he has like, he's been devoured, like, you think I'm a reader, he's been devouring stuff. Like I cannot even tell you and listening to people's experiences, including mine and you know, all this kind of stuff. And it's just been great. And he's just been on this path. It's been amazing. Um, now I forgot where I was going with that, but, um, oh, I had, he's a scientist, he's a PhD level, uh, geologist. And, um, so this was a conversation we used to have when we were in college and grad school is, um, people would always ask him some of these, uh, like, like museum of the Bible style questions. Right. So what happened with Noah's arc and, you know, it's kind of things like that, or what do you think about his
Speaker 2 00:45:41 Faith survive,
Speaker 1 00:45:44 Right. Or, you know, what happened? Right. And so there's not just this question when it comes to our experiences, are we believing people whose experiences are different than ours? And is that informing how we view the world? It should. But I think we also see with this identity, there's some of this going on too, right? Where, well, it doesn't say it in the Bible. And so, and I'm, I'm again, I'm kind of being like binary on purpose here, you know, with this. But you know, it doesn't say it in the Bible. So I don't believe,
Speaker 2 00:46:11 Uh, current day America has a justice problem. Right. So can we really know,
Speaker 1 00:46:16 Right. The Bible, doesn't say there's going to be a plague in 2020, and I need to take a vaccine, right? The Bible, doesn't say the Bible, doesn't say the Bible doesn't address dinosaurs, the Bible doesn't, you know, all of these things. And so we have a problem. And, and, and, and part of the problem with that, with that identity, I think is that it's like all of us, we all kind of cherry pick the Bible to a degree if we're honest, but also I think that same identity that says your experience or your science or whatever it is, can not inform my position actually does fill up. I think you were going there actually does let other things informant's position, right? Like politics and
Speaker 2 00:47:01 Stupid partisan, like talking point machines.
Speaker 4 00:47:04 Yeah. Yeah. And I think if we're not being discipled by something like the topic of culture, engaging in culture, if we're not being discipled by our pastors or those who are engaging in that in a healthy way, not in addition to biblical a biblical and healthy way, something's going to fill that spot. It's not that we're not going to get taught. We're either going to get taught well, or we're going to get taught poorly. Um, but to, to Phillip's question, you were talking about like, how do you identify you're in that bubble? And, and as a black man who grew up in black church, um, come, come to my church and be at my church for awhile and see the poor people who are in our pews and the drunk people who are coming in and screaming at the top of their lungs, that they love Jesus, even though they are full of alcohol and see these experiences and have these moments of discipleship.
Speaker 4 00:47:58 And I don't think, I think that bubble will, will at least get some tension on it because the neighborhood that I grew up in church culture that I grew up in, the area that I grew up in, it was very different than when I became an adult. And then I went into Johnson county in Kansas city. It was, it was super different. And, and I I'm thinking to myself, if, if we are going to be salt and light, um, there's not a lot of people here that are, and, and I don't say this as a pejorative. I don't say that as a pejorative at all. There's not a lot of people who need anything here. There's not a lot of widows. There's not a lot of the downtrodden. It's kind of, you know, there's Teslas in the parking lot. And it's like, that is really good fence that, you know what I mean? And so it's like, I, so, so nobody needs anything, really, every somebody who needs something don't get me wrong, but
Speaker 3 00:49:02 COVID, COVID hit. And it was like, the church had all this fun to like, everybody wanted to help somebody. And they're like, well, we didn't really have anybody who needed it.
Speaker 4 00:49:11 Yeah. Everybody, everybody was politically, the people who do need it are demonized. So like, well, they got themselves in that bad position. Right. Not them
Speaker 3 00:49:19 Well and were segregated from them. Anyway. So I
Speaker 4 00:49:21 Mean, and so there's, there's just so much opportunity if we're, if we're, if we are serious. And I think that's the, that's the point that I would press to that believer and having a level of loving and generous conversation with them is if, if we're taking our faith serious, then the, the areas that are disenfranchised, whether you don't boil that person down to statistics that you heard on the news, go there down the street, go talk to them, go be in their company, a space that will really put tension on that bubble. And at the very least those, like you said, Alexis, those, those questions, those good questions will start to pop up, you know, and it's it. And, and nobody's going to be confident enough to say, well, are you just morally reprehensible? And are you just super lazy? Um, nobody's going to say that.
Speaker 4 00:50:14 And then if you get to know an individual, you'll see, there are a lot of very ambitious, a lot of very unlike hustle type individuals, or just people who are very genuine about their faith and want to something better, but they are facing all types of opposition and they're doing that on a day-to-day basis. And so realize that like wealth, isn't a moral, uh, reward and that's. Yeah, exactly. So all that to say, you know, to test that bubble, just go into those areas that you might drive around or drive through or drive by. There are other faithful Christians, there are other faithful churches or other faithful believers who are there. Um, and not saying, you know, you have to go in with a whole bunch of donations. I'll fix it. I'll just give you guys a lot of money. No, it's, it's go do life with them. And you will see how, how that bubble is is, is probably not the most helpful thing to stay in.
Speaker 3 00:51:14 Yeah. I wanted to come back around to as well that the point about epistemology and just like, how do we know what we know? And the doctrine is sufficiency. Like, you're totally right. Where there's such an unhealthy approach that we take to the doctrine of sufficiency where we use it. <inaudible> for everything. We kind of have addressed it before.
Speaker 3 00:51:37 Yeah. I think we were talking about topic tossups but yeah, it probably deserves a, a heavier link and, and yeah, I think, I think people get messed up in that in a lot of different spaces and people fail to realize too. I mean, I've, I've been thinking about this recently, but like churches really don't originally Sunday school right at church was like school, like literal, honest to God school. And it's like the church used to know that there's different types of knowledge. Right. And I can think of, there's kind of three spheres of knowledge that everybody needs, right? Knowledge of God, knowledge of self and knowledge of the world. And you've got a Christian culture. That's almost anemic on all fronts because instead of all of that, it's like just knowledge of this book. But if you really listened to the book, it would give you avenues and the things that you need on all three, but it's not just by reading it.
Speaker 3 00:52:33 It'll give you everything you need for your faith and life and godliness, right. As it says, but it's not gonna tell you what your personality is. It's not going to tell you the things that you need to work on. It's not going to tell you what passages are exactly. You know, the ones that really, you need to pay closer attention to too, because that's where you tend to struggle. It's not going to tell you what kind of evil that your world is. You know, it's not going to tell you what kind of influences are out there that you have to guard against. It's not going to tell you what sin is being normalized in your life, through your culture, through your church, through your family. And so you have to go pursue that work and the church should be a place to your point, Alexis, it should be a place that encourages all of those types of knowledge, even if, and especially if over against, if that's inconvenient in the eyes of the state and too often, the church, it seems like has been just another arm of the state. And this might sound weird, but like even in America, you know, that's been the case to, just to just toe the national line of we're the heroes manifest destiny and all this stuff. And so, yeah, so then everything that comes with that, and I think there are other people in the faith who don't, who in America who don't have that experience to Vince's point, but then we just, we just have this really convenient tool of, well, they don't actually have the gospel. Yeah. We,
Speaker 2 00:54:01 We marginalize and, and keep our bubble nice and tight. Like they're out,
Speaker 1 00:54:06 Man,
Speaker 4 00:54:07 Man. Well, that's an area to ended for sure. This is good, man. Yeah, this was awesome. Um, Alexis, before we go, uh, cause we're, we're coming in on an hour already. Um, one thing we always like to do with our guests is a substance shout outs. This is just a time for you to share with the audience. Uh, anything that you've been reading, any podcasts you've been listening to music, books, anything that you've been consuming that has been, uh, just edifying and beneficial for you lately.
Speaker 1 00:54:38 Okay. So before you said edifying, I thought I had it, but I'm like, can I just be a dork right now until you guys like, really like totally what I'm, what I'm into right now. Okay. So here's, I'll say this first, no spoilers from anybody. If you guys have finished the series and if you did, you probably finished it three years ago. So stop because I don't want to hear any, I don't want to hear any splitters. We don't have apple TV. I just, uh, today I was on the phone with someone and she was talking about it
Speaker 2 00:55:12 In their half hour, sign up for your free week and
Speaker 1 00:55:15 Need to do it. Um, so it's not Ted lasso for me. Um, it's Madam secretary like Netflix, right? So, uh, what's her name? <inaudible> something like this. So what I like about it, can I, can I nerd for a second and say, what I really like about this is this is the series where she's a professor and she comes in to serve as secretary of state. Okay. So I'm in like the fifth season or something right now. I think it only has six seasons and I've been watching it for a while. And what is interesting to me is there have been several social issues that are brought up on the show. Some longer-term, you know, that span, you know, several episodes or a season in some, or that are just shorter, you know, maybe one or two episodes. But I go back, like I find myself going back and figuring out when did they originally air?
Speaker 1 00:56:09 Right? Because this was on a network, right? This wasn't, it's not a Netflix show. This was on a net, on a network where, where it aired weekly on an actual like schedule. And so I find myself going back and I've told my husband multiple times, I don't think they're prophetic, but I do think they were perceptive. So they're addressing stuff, you know, of course now it's all like Mo most of it is passed, but, you know, I will give you an example of one of the short term ones. They had an entire episode where they kind of did a PSA at the end. It's not normally like that. They don't normally do PSA's, but, but they had an entire episode where there was a measles outbreak and it was like, you know, these, uh, developed countries, right? So the United States and Australia, and, you know, are all like blaming migrants for the outbreak.
Speaker 1 00:57:00 Right. And, and it's like this smoke screen, they're, they're blaming climate migrants. Right. That's part of the other underlying thing as these people are migrating because their places of their homes are being destroyed by global warming, which, you know, part of the political stuff, they don't believe it's a real thing. And, um, and so they are migrating and they're being blamed for this measles outbreak, but really what it was was one of a citizen from one of the developed countries had been a tourist at another one. And then both of them had had like pretty serious misinformation about vaccines. And so they had a significant unvaccinated population and, and it became an outbreak, um, you know, and especially effecting children, right. Who were not vaccinated, didn't have their at their MMR or whatever. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, and so that was another one I'm like, when did, when did this air, this, did they didn't put this out in, you know, in October of 2020, right. This was like, anyway, it's been a few years. So, um, so anyway, uh, if that's like, you know, two weirdo political, you can totally edit part of that out, but
Speaker 2 00:58:06 I've heard about that show. I've never, uh, never checked it out.
Speaker 1 00:58:10 Yeah. That's, that's one of my favorites right now is Madam secretary. And then, um, and then kind of dorky again, I'm reading some stuff for school. That's kind of like blowing my mind. So, um, I mentioned immigration earlier. One of the books I'm reading is called welcoming the stranger. And this book is, um, is on immigration and really gives, um, a pretty informed, I feel like a nuanced perspective, but it's not an academic book. It's kind of a book for, for churches. And then, uh, let me see. I was going to nerd out again, but I'm not, um, I'm not going to do it. I'll say this. This is one of the, one of the two, the ones that have really gotten me is, um, the porters gate. So I am like, it depends on how I feel. I'm either on repeat with justice songs or I'm on repeat with limit songs. So those two albums,
Speaker 2 00:59:07 It's super good to have them on. I connected with them after justice songs came out and they said, yeah, we're down to do it. And they would just, they've been busy. We've been busy. So
Speaker 1 00:59:17 My goodness. Yeah, I've got I've, I've got like one of the guys where like, uh, mutually follow one another on Instagram and I keep like waiting to reach out and I just haven't done it yet. I think I'm a little bit nervous, like,
Speaker 2 00:59:28 Well, advent songs is coming out in a month or two. So maybe
Speaker 1 00:59:33 I did see that. I think I saw that just today. Yeah. No, no joke. That would be, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:59:38 I know we're running the time here, but also you said you were a huge podcast fan. We'd love to hear a couple of podcasts, shout outs, whether for fun or for faith or for your hobbies, or what do you like? What are some great podcasts?
Speaker 1 00:59:50 Okay. So if I need to catch up quick, I feel like the daily is kinda my go-to. I love, uh, church politics podcast with Justin <inaudible> we've mentioned him. And then, yeah, I've been listening to a lot of holy posts lately. I don't know if you guys are this way, but I kind of ended up finding myself where I kind of rotate. Like, I'll be like really into a show for a little while and then, and then it'll get kind of on the back burner. I'll go and be like really into another show for a little while. And then, yeah. So I'm, I'm catching myself. I'm like, I dunno. It's holy post my show right now. It might be,
Speaker 2 01:00:26 Yeah, it's a good one. Our friend Caitlin is now like a, uh, associate host.
Speaker 1 01:00:32 Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I skipped through like news of the, but you know, if I'm honest, I'm on, like,
Speaker 2 01:00:40 I love Caitlin's uncomfortability with it. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 3 01:00:46 Did you see, have you seen the Russell wars, numb new podcast? He hadn't signed posts and then like revamped it and basically relaunched it
Speaker 2 01:00:57 Key. Freaking got Marilyn Robinson on his show and I was very jealous.
Speaker 3 01:01:03 Um, well it's like Phil it's like brand new, even, even since that
Speaker 2 01:01:07 Last one
Speaker 3 01:01:08 Then. Yeah. Because, um, he, he signed on with Christianity today and so he, now he has like all their production stuff and like his latest up. So David French and I have our first argument.
Speaker 2 01:01:20 Let's get him on the show. Very fun.
Speaker 1 01:01:22 More David French. Yeah. I mean, I guess, I don't know it was David. Just somebody shout out to David French. Right? Maybe he's
Speaker 3 01:01:30 Shout out to David French. I've been loving Russell Moore's energy recently. Ever since he left the SPCs, like popping off
Speaker 2 01:01:40 Has substance 2.0, right.
Speaker 1 01:01:45 I can't keep up. I can't keep up. Sometimes. I like to just, if I don't have time to listen to podcasts, I enjoy seeing what people are tweeting about on, you know,
Speaker 2 01:01:56 The Trevor, you can feel free to cut this. I will also give you a big compliment on just the production. I don't know if it's you or Seth. I, your show is one that I li I don't listen to it like every week when it comes out, but I'll listen to all the ones that I'm interested in. I'll go back and listen to chunks. You've definitely gotten me with some of the ones that I wasn't necessarily like putting on my cue with your, your audio grams. Like you pick really great ones and then tweet them out or have from your store. It's like, okay, like that, one's going in the queue. Like think the audio grams are
Speaker 1 01:02:26 Thank you. Is that, is that the word? Is that what we call them? I don't even know what they're called audiograms. Nice. Thank you. I I'm, I don't communicate.
Speaker 2 01:02:33 I haven't really caused me to download some of your shows from like, I don't recognize that person. And I've got 200 podcasts to listen to right now, right?
Speaker 1 01:02:41 No, that's totally Seth. That is that it's a hundred percent Seth because when he comes in, like, I don't listen to them again. Most of the time, unless it's like a friend, I don't
Speaker 2 01:02:51 Listen to them done after
Speaker 1 01:02:54 A while because I haven't, you know, I have a pro who does all that for me. Right. Or sometimes I'll come back and I'll be like, wait, you're supposed to edit this. You know? So, so sometimes I do have to do that or when I go back and do the show notes, I want to make sure I got everything, but no, Seth listens to it. And I think that's probably why they're so good. Phillip is because he comes in with a fresh year, right? Like most of the time he has not read the book. He obviously has not had that conversation. He's coming in just completely a blank slate. And so it really is just like, whatever sticks out to him. And so
Speaker 2 01:03:25 That's a great little 45 seconds. I mean, like it's happened three or four times in the last few months where I'm like, Ooh, like you, cause you put them on your Instagram stories is like, that was good. I'm adding that to the list.
Speaker 1 01:03:37 Thanks Phil. He'll love to hear that. Yeah. But I think it, I think it works because like I said, he's coming into it with no preconceived notions. Right. And so it just is kind of whatever catches his ear. Um, and he'll, he'll usually jot down three or four and then come up with what he thinks might be the best one. So that's awesome. I love it.
Speaker 3 01:03:53 Nice. We're going to go ahead and add. That makes total sense to my subscribed lists
Speaker 1 01:03:58 There. Oh, you guys are awesome. Gotta
Speaker 3 01:04:00 Jump on that. Some good stuff. Well, Alexis, thank you so much for joining us. Um, obviously people can find
Speaker 1 01:04:08 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
