Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody, I am back today with MEI cannon. She is here for the second time. I will link her first episode where we talked about her book beyond hashtag activism and because of her position as executive director of churches for middle east peace, I have asked her back to talk about that subject in particular. Um, and I will say may, this was a selfish ask because this is something that I enjoy having conversation about, but from the moment that I started to become more politically aware, probably in my early twenties, that, um, things were happening in Israel, Palestine, and I didn't understand them, I have felt honestly, the truth is I felt just kind of, not quite smart enough to kind of understand the history and the context.
Speaker 0 00:01:32 Um, and, and I know it's, it's one of the most, I think last time you were here, you said it was one of the most studied conflicts in history and in the world right now, at least. So, um, thank you for studying that and for being so willing to break it down for us and talk about this with compassion.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 I am happy to, and I have to say as well that even though I have my doctorate in the history of American Protestant engagement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I am a learner and we learned as we go and we learned together. So that's my posture as we come to this conversation, not that I have all the answers, but I can tell you things that I've learned along the way.
Speaker 0 00:02:09 Awesome. Thank you so much. And I know that you, as your role as executive director for churches for middle east peace, this is part of what you do is go around and engage church groups and talk with them and have conversations with them about this topic. And so one of the things I wanted to ask you is beyond the advocacy work that you do and your organization does, I want to ask you, why specifically, do you feel like education for American church people is an important part of this conversation?
Speaker 2 00:02:48 Yeah. Thank you. I love that question. And some of it really goes to my personal narrative and story. Um, I'm I was not as aware, you know, you said you first started to become introduced to the geopolitics of the holy land or the Israeli Palestinian conflict in your twenties. Mine actually happened much later than that. And I was educated. I had several master's degrees. I was getting my doctorate and it had been my dream to go to Israel from the time I graduated from high school. Um, and in fact, my parents gave me the gift of going to Israel after high school. And every time I was supposed to go, something happened, you know, my grandfather got very ill or there was a, an escalation in conflict and we couldn't go because of the war or, and so it really took, you know, I didn't end up going for decades after I graduated from high school.
Speaker 2 00:03:39 And when I first went, I really went to be exposed to the history of the place related to the Jewish people. Um, I had been raised in a home that was not a Christian home. Uh, it was largely secular, but it was Zionist. It was a home that really lauded the, um, ingenuity of the Jewish people and the rebuilding of this nation state, you know, not only because of world war II, but coming out of the Holocaust, the Shoah, the great tragedies of the Jewish people. And so I, I grew up reading books by Jewish authors. And so I really wanted to see this incredible place from that perspective. Um, but of course the real reason I wanted to go was because it was where Jesus lived and breathed and did ministry. And so I wanted to see the holy sites and, and I had no idea about the people and the current realities of the place.
Speaker 2 00:04:31 So I went on the spiritual pilgrimage and in preparing for our time together, I pulled up some slides and things of like pictures. And I can just remember the first time I was in Jerusalem, touching my hands along the walls, which are ancient. They're not, uh, you know, they've been rebuilt several times and all of that, but I can remember the verses in scripture that talk about Jesus's triumphant entry. And it says that if the people did not cry out to worship him, the very stones would cry out. And I feel like that's an encapsulation of like the sacredness of the space. And that's what I had gone to experience the spiritual reality of this holy city of Jerusalem and these holy sites throughout Israel. And then I saw these signs that said free Palestine. And I didn't even know what Palestine was. I literally thought that it was a map in the back of my Bible.
Speaker 2 00:05:26 Um, and so I ended up being introduced to a gentleman who was the founder of Bethlehem Bible college. His name is Beshara Awad and he told the story as a Christian, an Arab Christian, a Palestinian Christian of being a refugee in 1948. And I literally have this picture above my deck desk, Alexis, where, um, there's a picture of me standing next to him. And you can see the tears in my eyes where he told this story of being a Palestinian refugee and the story of the Palestinian people. And my heart was utterly broken because I had absolutely no idea. And, um, I feel like God gave me a heart for Israel and God gave me a heart for the Jewish people. And that day I was like the Grinch whose heart grew several sizes where that day my heart was broken for the Palestinian people as well. And so my story, I feel like as an example, that's so relevant to so many Christians who here, you know, I was studying global issues. I was engaged in global justice. You know, how could I not know so much of these realities? And how could I not know anything about this people group that are Palestinian, many of whom are Palestinian Christians who are brothers and sisters in Christ. So, um, that's a bit of why I think it's so important.
Speaker 0 00:06:46 Yeah. Well, thank you. I could, I could feel myself cheering up when you were talking about the stones, because it is, I mean, it's, it is a sacred space. Um, my husband and I have been, um, a few times, uh, I think my account is something along the lines of seven, but it's been a decade since I've been. Um, and so I I've traveled with, uh, with toddler twins and I have traveled pregnant and, um, I've traveled as a, as a single and I'm married and, um, and it is an, it's an incredible space. It is, it is a sacred space. Um, and I think that for, for me, and this is going to lead into the next question, but for me, um, that sacred space always had a name and the name was Israel, right. And so even in the map in the back of my Bible made me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 0 00:07:48 Um, if I'm honest, you know, and, um, and so one of the things that I have, and I, and I think that at least in some circles where I've seen the name is sometimes a stamp of which side of the binary you fall on. When someone's writing on this, do we use the name Israel and say the name Israel, when we're writing on this, do we use the name Palestine? Do we say the name Palestine? And one of the things I noticed, um, as I was prepping for our time together in some of the articles and writings that you sent me, it's, it's a slash usually Israel slash Palestine. Um, so I feel like that's probably more than logistical. Can, will you talk about like, why that is your choice?
Speaker 2 00:08:37 Well, and sometimes it depends on where things are being published, what language you use. So I, um, I just did a meeting that was a gathering of the Islamic society of new England with a Jewish group, uh, in new England. And, you know, sometimes if you're the political space, you might talk about Israel and then you have to clarify, are you talking about Israel proper, are you talking about Israel, Jerusalem, the west bank and Gaza, and, you know, do you identify east Jerusalem, the west bank and Gaza as occupied territories, which according to international law, they are occupied Palestinian Territories, you know, and then you could get into the question of the Golan Heights, which was occupied territory, but under the Trump administration, the U S acknowledged it as being annexed by Israel. So all of these, like we could go through the map of like, what do you call what place?
Speaker 2 00:09:27 And there's never a right answer to some degree, you know, in Israel a little better, by the way, when I struggle with it, right? Oh, absolutely. I mean, in Israel, proper, depending on, um, you know, Israeli politicians, um, many will call the west bank Judea and Samaria, which, you know, for those of us who are Christian, that's very familiar the words in acts from slim to Judea and just Mariette. And it's interesting also to note that some of the most sacred sites in Judaism are not in Israel, proper they're in the west bank. And so part of the Judea and Samaria has to do with the theological significance for Jewish people of faith. Um, and you know, so sometimes we try to use words that would be considered neutral. So for Christians, the holy land, which could apply to the Sinai, which could apply to Damascus, it could apply to broader regions beyond just Israel might be considered neutral.
Speaker 2 00:10:26 And I use the term holy land in this meeting with these Muslims and Jewish leaders and somebody that was, um, participating, made a comment and said, I find that very offensive that you're calling it the holy land, because you're not calling it what it actually is. And so I think, um, you know, legal definitions, what do we mean by boundaries? And, you know, the, the current geopolitics, um, often when I'm giving talks, I'll use three different words for the same things. So you might be familiar. There is a wall that exists between Israel proper and the west bank, and a neutral term for that is the separation barrier. Sometimes it's a fence. Sometimes it's a wall in the walled portion. It is twice as tall and three times as long as the Berlin wall, but many Israelis call that the security fence or the security barrier, because for them, that's what it represents. And then if you talk to many Palestinians, they will call that same separation barrier, the apartheid wall. And so the maiming and identification of place and space and maps in large part says so much about people's perspectives or whether or not you acknowledge multi-year tip approaches. And so we try to use language that is descriptive, but as neutral as possible. Um, but depending on the audience, you know, there's lots of opinions about what that might mean.
Speaker 0 00:11:56 Right, right, right. Um, I want to get into some of the more recent, um, conflict and kind of elevated conflicts that we've seen in the last year or so, but before we dig into that, which can be, which can, which can kind of like get us in. I don't, I don't mean this. I think that speaking of offense, I'm like, I don't mean this in an offensive way to the conflict, but it kind of gets us in the weeds right. Of like details and, you know, what, what exactly went on and timing and all that kind of stuff, which, which is important to the conflict. But before we kind of go there, I wanna see if I can ask a few kind of background questions that, you know, um, if, if we were before we even go there, I feel like there are probably some things that might get us to a baseline as a, as an audience, um, that, that might help us understand those things more. And so maybe my first question is in the work that you do specifically talking to churches and to Christians in America, what are some of the questions that you hear repeated most often or, and, or, um, some of the misconceptions that you see or hear most often when it comes to the region and the conflict.
Speaker 2 00:13:24 Thank you. Um, and I so appreciate that question. Um, there's two things immediately that come to mind. Um, one is the question of when did this conflict start, um, and the other one is like, what is the conflict all about? Like, what are the core issues of the conflict? And so for Christian audiences, often, there's a presupposition that the modern day contemporary conflict between Israelis and Palestinians goes back to a biblical conflict that existed, uh, between the children of Abraham. So Abraham's two sons, Isaac, and Ishmael, the Jewish people are the descendants of Isaac, the Arab of people. Many people believe that the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael and Isaac was blessed and Ishmael was cursed. And so there's the theological presupposition that the modern nation state of Israel, as the descendants of Isaac must be on the side of God and anyone who was against them is on the side of evil.
Speaker 2 00:14:24 And you see some of these themes, um, you know, even in, uh, vice-president Pence was the first us vice-president to speak at the Knesset and you see these themes in his speech. Like, and, and if you look for them, you know, he doesn't use that exact articulation or that exact language, but these presuppositions about whose side are you on? Um, you know, you can see them even today. And I would point people to a conservative, uh, scholar of the Hebrew scriptures of the old Testament. I believe he was at Southern theological seminary. His name is Tony Maloof. Uh, he wrote a book called Arabs in the shadow of Israel. That is a biblical study of the sons of Abraham. And he actually walks through and looks at, you know, when hacker was rejected by Sarah and sent out into the wilderness, she cries out to God.
Speaker 2 00:15:16 And what was God's response? God revealed himself to her. It's considered to be the very first tee off any of the old Testament where God responded to the cries of Hagar. Well, if Ishmael, you know, the father of the Arab people is considered curse, why would God respond to his mother when she's weeping in the wilderness? Right. And he goes through things like, um, at some point, Ishmael was called a donkey and how actually a donkey was a blessing at that time. And to understand what that means. And then you go through the story of Isaac and Ishmael, who, um, you know, he makes the argument and many, many theologians and scholars would agree with him that Isaac was blessed and Ishmael was blessed. They just were blessed differently. And how the promises of God to Abraham, which relate to the modern Jewish people, um, were promises, not just that the Jewish people would be blasted, but that they would be blessed that the world would be blessed for all nations.
Speaker 2 00:16:12 And so, um, and then finally, you know, he talks about how both Isaac and Ishmael were present together side-by-side and buried their father. And, you know, many of us have had the privilege of traveling to where, uh, the Ebrahimi, um, you know, to Hebron where, uh, there is a building that has half a synagogue and half a mosque where Jews and Muslims can be able to actually see where the father of our faith Abraham was buried. Um, and so I think that whole, like when did it begin and is this a biblical con conflict ordained by God that has been going on for thousands of years? So there will never be resolution. Um, I think we really need to deconstruct that. I think there's a lot of false beliefs in those assumptions. And even when we look at history, Jews and Muslims have lived side by side in relative peace, certainly in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 00:17:10 And in, you know, this historic Palestine, I was going to say the holy land and I corrected myself, you know, but when we look at the history, you know, when you look at, um, the 18 hundreds and the time of the Ottoman empire, and I want to be careful. So I say, relative peace, like not absolute peace, right? Not where there was never conflict, but you had Jews and Muslims and Christians that lived side-by-side as neighbors who spoke the same language, who, you know, it was the Muslim baker who was the Shabbat, the, the non-Jewish person that, that helped Jews during the Sabbath. And so the Jewish, um, people would bring their food to the Muslim bakers so that he could heat it for them on the day of the Sabbath. So they wouldn't have to work, you know, and, and these are not just like idealistic, like looking at history, like there's actually stories and pictures and, uh, testimonies and narratives, you know, that peace has existed between these peoples and that peace is possible.
Speaker 0 00:18:14 Can I stop you there for a second on that first one, but just because I think, gosh, that's so important that I just kind of want to, I want to say what you said again, that it's important that we deconstruct that narrative like that, that biblical historical narrative, that really, that, that is probably the predominant narrative that I have always heard and been taught and had conversations around this. And I S I say, I wanna, I want, I'm so thankful to hear you say that, that this is something that we need to deconstruct in part, because it instilled one of the things that, that narrative instilled in me is a feeling of hopelessness, right? Like you kind of said, like, it's always been this way. It's, God-ordained ordained, or it's always going to be this way. Or when we talk about the conflict, we say things that, you know, sound kind of, you know, they sound kind of kitschy and cute, or like, you know, we, the conflict there won't be peace in the middle east until the prince of peace comes back.
Speaker 0 00:19:19 Right. And things like that. And so it's like, it makes it to where we say we just, it gives, I think it would say for me, I feel like it gave me an excuse to kind of not even try if that makes sense. Like, I don't have to be educated about this. I don't have to think about it. I'll have to, whatever, because this is something that's just always going to be. Um, and I think it's important that you, um, that you point that out. And it, honestly, it kind of, I don't know if this is like, this is kind of personally, it's like normalizing my experience a little bit, you know, because I, you know, I, I think sometimes we get into where we have, you know, we see ourselves inside of a culture and then if maybe we're no longer a part of that culture, we kind of, I don't know, was that niche or was it, you know, but this, this kind of goes, oh, okay. So this wasn't just the story that I was told. This is kind of the story for a lot of
Speaker 2 00:20:14 That's. Right. I think many people, um, have either been taught that, or I sometimes talk about like, default, dispensationalism not many people know what dispensationalism means today, you know, but that there are these assumptions that are inherent, uh, either in the preaching that we hear on Sunday mornings or in our Bible studies or, and we carry with them. I think often we won't think about the repercussions of carrying that with us, that if we believe that Arabs are descendants of this male, an Ishmael was cursed, you know, maybe that helps explain why there's so much anti-Muslim sentiment coming out of American Christianity. Right. And so I think that's really helpful for us to be able to say, where does that come from? And, and is that really true? And I think when we look at the Israeli Palestinian conflict to know this is a modern conflict, this conflict has only been going on since, you know, the beginning of the 20th century, maybe the late 19th century, but really the beginning of the 20th century. And so it's only been going on for just over a hundred years or so, um, which I think helps give us perspective as well, that this has not been going on for thousands of years, right. Able to understand where's this come from? What are the core causes?
Speaker 0 00:21:26 So I feel like, so I want to say two things, one unrelated, and one to move us on. So one would, the unrelated thing is, um, it, it reminds me and I, I would just say like, here's a little plug. This is from, this is just from me personally. This is not from me, but I'm saying there are things in my studies that are akin to that narrative of, you know, Ishmael and his descendants being cursed and things like that. And so you feel like it's, it's helpless or this kind of default, dispensationalism that you're saying where, when I look at this, I go, oh, there are other doctrinal things in my life that I have believed because of a narrative like that. When I look back and I go, oh, wait a minute. It's not my, my faith or my belief or something, but there is a narrative probably that needs to be deconstructed that, you know, goes along with that. Um, so anyway, some of that is maybe gender related for me when it comes to ministry, but I'll, you know, just say that was kind of one of them.
Speaker 0 00:22:27 That was one of the things that came to mind. Um, you know, it's a similar, it's a similar thing going back to, again, another curse right. In, in Genesis. So that's all I'll say about that, but the, um, but moving us, moving us along when you say the conflict is young, right? Like early 20th century, perhaps late 19th century, they at my centers. Right. Um, but that goes on, I think to the second thing that you were saying comes to mind, which is like, what are the core issues? What happened? I'm like, may tell us what happened.
Speaker 2 00:22:58 Right. And I promise, I won't go through the whole history. I did pull out some slides. I do aversion. Um, someone bet me once. I couldn't do a history of the conflict in three minutes. And I won't do that right now because I speak so fast that like, I can't breathe and, you know, it's not the most comprehensible. Um, but one of the things I do really like to do with churches is to, you know, spend a Sunday morning or, or spend even like let's take two or three hours over brunch and really look at, and I really try to do a here's what you might hear from multiple Jewish perspectives. Here's what you might hear from multiple Arab perspectives. And to, so it's really three histories or multiple histories, as opposed to like one line of this is what actually happened. Um, but I think the key things that are important to understand many people think the nation of Israel was because of world war two and certainly the Jewish refugees that survived the Holocaust.
Speaker 2 00:23:53 Um, that was a reality, but that was, um, but the establishment of the state of Israel and the restoration of Jews to their historic Homeland was really an agenda of the Jewish Zionist movement, which was a nationalist movement that started in the late 19 hundreds. And so when I talk about, you know, when did it start, um, and the Jewish nationalist movement existed long before. I mean, before world war one, let alone before world war II. And the goals were for there to be a historic Homeland for the Jewish people where they could be safe from pogroms, from the horrific antisemitism and historic Palestine was one of the supposed locations, but was not the only, and so, um, that movement, um, really was aspirational about, you know, finding a place that could be demographically Jewish, where Jewish people could be safe. Um, and it was nationalistic and it was not, uh, in large part, it was secular.
Speaker 2 00:24:49 So there was a huge debate in the early Zionist movement about whether or not God should be mentioned in the declaration of independence, you know, at the establishment of the state of Israel, they didn't call it the declaration, but you know, there, uh, how, what, what role God should play. And so what had happened was, um, from the late 19th century to the early 20th century, you had increased Jewish immigration to historic Palestine. And so the demographics of historic Palestine at that point, it was primarily Arab about 1 million Arabs or so, uh, you had an indigenous Jewish population that had been there for millennium, and many of them spoke Arabic. Um, and you had this indigenous Jewish population and this Arabic population that did not self-identify as Palestinian. There was not a huge nationalistic movement at that time. The territory was called historic Palestine. And as you had increased immigration, then you also had these major global political things happening.
Speaker 2 00:25:52 So you had world war one where ultimately the Ottoman empire, uh, historic Palestine was under the Ottoman empire, leading into world war one. And, you know, I could go through, uh, the British mandate period. And then, um, you know, you had another major war in 1967, the six day war, and then you had the Encore war in the early 1970s. And I could go through all of that history. Um, but I think without maps and, you know, trying to do it quickly and things, I'm not sure that's the best use of our time except to say this. Um, and I forgive me that I've heard this, um, told by many other people, and there's actually a scholar who I should attribute it to, and I don't know what the scholar's name is, but, um, he once said that the court issues of the conflict to have to do, if you look at a triangle where you have three quarters of a and any resolution to the conflict could have two of the edges of the triangle, but could never have all three.
Speaker 2 00:26:50 And so the edges of the triangle or this one is democracy, one is Jewishness and one is land. And so you could have a democracy that has all of the land, but because of the population that exists there, which is Arab, largely Europe, you know, Arab and Jewish, it would not be a Jewish democracy. You could have a land that is Jewish, but then it would not be democratic, or you could have a Jewish democracy, but it would be without all of the land. And so I think that's actually a really helpful large framework. When you look at kind of the history of the conflict that you have, these two people groups, um, ultimately, uh, after the British mandate period, the British left and turned the question of Palestine over to the United nations. So in 1947, you had what was called the partition plan, which in large part, the partition plan was the beginning of what we call today, the two-state solution.
Speaker 2 00:27:49 And the idea was the land should be separated. You know, part of it could go to the Jews. Part of it could go to the Arabs and were very, very, very far away from that today. Um, and then the other thing I will say that I think a significant historical note, and for those listening, I know these are broad, broad brush strokes, and there's so much we're missing. Um, I fully acknowledged that, but one of the other things I think is really significant to talk about is in 1967, after you had the establishment of the state of Israel in large part, at that point, the surrounding Arab states did not acknowledge Israel's right to exist. So you've had another major war in 1967, which is hugely significant from Christian eschatological perspectives because Israel defeated their neighbors. In six days, they defeated Egypt, Jordan Syria. And, um, that war was a turning point for many, many reasons.
Speaker 2 00:28:49 One in terms of, uh, American conservative Christian support of Israel, it was hugely significant. This meant that God is on the side of Israel because they were so decisive in their victory. So there's all kinds of theological implications. But in terms of on the ground, um, Israel had a choice with the territory that they took control of. They took control of Sinai. They took control of east Jerusalem. So it was the first time there was a United Jerusalem. They took control of the west bank and they took control of the Golan Heights from Syria. Ultimately the Sinai was traded back to Egypt through a peace agreement, these other territories, including Gaza, east Jerusalem, and the west bank, the Golan Heights, Israel had the choice of whether or not to annex them, um, whether or not to give them back to the countries that they had conquered them from, or conquered is not quite the right word, but, you know, taking control of them from, or they could maintain military control of them without annexation.
Speaker 2 00:29:47 And what's happened is that military control. So when we hear the term occupied territories, what we mean is those territories and each territory has a different history, but what we mean is those territories were not annexed to become a part of Israel proper, nor were they given back to the country that had originally had control. So they're still in this kind of, um, the international definition is occupation. And the reason it's called occupation is because those territories are under Israeli, military control. The people that live there don't have self-determination, they don't have completely independent governments. They don't have voting rights and we can talk about, well then what about the Palestinian authority? Because there is a Palestinian government, but it is still under Israeli control. And so that brings us to some of these current realities of what's this conflict all about right now you have 2 million people living in Casa, which is completely under blockade and completely closed off.
Speaker 2 00:30:49 You have, you know, more than 2.5 million Palestinians living in the west bank, uh, in addition to several hundred thousand Jewish settlers living in the west bank. Um, and then in Israel, proper Israel's, uh, demographics is roughly 8 million people, 20% of whom are not Jewish and who are Palestinians, you have 20% of Israel, proper, or actually Palestinian citizens of the state of Israel. And so if everyone's confused, now I've done my job to give you like a two-minute summary of like all kinds of things that I could parse that and define. But that's a bit of a summary of part of the current reality is we don't have two states. Um, and we have this kind of, uh, unresolved status, you know, of what used to be called historically the question of Palestine.
Speaker 0 00:31:37 So thank you. Wow. I'm like, I have all of these questions burning and I'm trying to figure out which ones would be the right ones to ask. So anyways, so you can shoot any of these down for sure. And say, I don't think this is going to get us closer to where we want to be. And I'm, and I'm totally legit with that. Um, one question I have when, when you talk about kind of the options and that Sinai was, was, you know, kind of given back to Egypt, um, but these other territories were left in this limbo situation where they weren't given back to the countries where they, um, where they came from, but they, um, but they also weren't annexed to become like officially part of Israel. And so, so this may be a really big can of worms. And my question is why, like, like, was it an international decision? Was it like UN, was it, you know, w what, what was the, because I, I can't, it seems like of all of the things, like, it seems like none of them were a great choice, but this seems like the messiest.
Speaker 2 00:32:45 Great, great question. Yes. Great question. So, um, and I want to be sure to be precise. Um, some of them were annexed, so east Jerusalem was annexed and Israel considers Jerusalem to be its unified capital, no country in the world. Uh, I think maybe on Doris did early on, but there was no embassy in the world, um, except for, um, until the U S embassy moved, uh, that acknowledged that annexation. So Israel would have said east Jerusalem, you know, is a, is a part of Israel. And the rest of the world would have said, no, it's not, we don't acknowledge that as legitimate. And some of that has to do with the status of Jerusalem, UN resolutions, you know, the right of their several hundred thousand Palestinians that live in Jerusalem and don't, they have a right to self-determination et cetera. So the Y um, it's a little complicated, but, but there's a few significant reasons.
Speaker 2 00:33:43 One of the most significant is because of the population, if Israel were to annex, you know, Gaza and the west bank, um, when we go back to that triangle of the land, the democracy and Jewish, they would then have to have, you know, Jewish control of the land that is not democratic because there would be a higher percentage. Eventually there would be a higher percentage of Arabs than Jews. Right. Um, and so that, that's one of the main reasons. So then w when you start to look at, well, then what actually did happen, right? So you have this territory that's controlled by the Israeli military. And one of the other reality is it's some of the greatest resources are in the west bank. The Jordan valley is in the west bank, and the Jordan valley has abundant resources in terms of farming in terms of, um, you know, fertile land that's in the Jordan valley, that type of thing.
Speaker 2 00:34:41 And so, um, Israel has built settlements, which are Jewish communities or cities that are along the dead sea that are using those resources for their benefit. And so, you know, Israel as a country is saying, this is in the best interest of our, you know, people of our state to be able to utilize these resources. Whereas again, if they'd annexed the land itself, they would have had to then take responsibility for the people that are in it. And what do you do? What do you do if you want to try to have a state that protects the Jewish people and, you know, historically there has been animosity. I think one of the things that's really, really important for people to hear and I've lived in Jerusalem and I've spent abundant time in the west bank, and I've spent time in Gaza is the Palestinian authority as an entity, but the Palestinian people specifically, certainly in recent decades, uh, you know, the, the official position of the Palestinian authority is to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
Speaker 2 00:35:46 And that some of the issues that were in question in the sixties, seventies, or maybe even eighties have not been in question today, the vast majority of Palestinians want to have a future for their children, where they're not worried about their children living under military control, and they just want peace, you know, and, um, there certainly is extremists and that, you know, but the idea that all Palestinians want to push the Jewish people, you know, into the sea, um, is just not true in present day. Um, I don't think that means we ignore the history, uh, but I think it's important that we acknowledge, you know, that the vast majority of both Palestinians and Israelis, especially mothers just want a future for their children where they can prosper and thrive. And whereas really mothers don't have to worry about their children going into the military. That's actively engaged in hostility and conflict, um, as well.
Speaker 0 00:36:42 Yeah. Thanks. Thank you for that may, that, that was, that was helpful. And as soon as you started talking, I thought, oh, okay. I think I'm starting to start. It was starting to click with me, um, a little bit, um, moving like the needle slightly toward the present day. Um, you mentioned it and I'm wondering what were some of the responses from yourself and your organization when Trump decided to move the embassy? Because, um, you know, we know in, in, in two elections now we have 80% of people who identify as white evangelicals in America, voting for Trump. And, um, and you know, some of whom would sight position on Israel for that being a tally mark in his, in his column, as opposed to anyone else's column, for example. And I would say just kind of in some of the circles that I ran in, that was a big deal. Right. Um, and so I'm kind of, you know, I'm having these thoughts of like, is it just some of the people I had exposure to where that kind of wasn't overblown deal, or did you know, what, what did you guys see as an organization and kind of, what was your response when that happened?
Speaker 2 00:38:00 Sure. Um, it was a huge deal. Uh, and for many people, it was one of the reasons they voted, you know, Trump's support of Israel, um, was one of the reasons they voted for him. I mean, it was, um, quite significant and the moving of the embassy was one of the promises he had committed to prior to his election, um, for us to, just for middle east peace, which represents 30 member communions and denomination. So it represents a lot of the traditional churches of the holy land, Orthodox communions, um, a number of Protestants, including mainline Protestant groups. There's several evangelical denominations and then peace churches would be kind of our broad demographics. So it's a broad swath of American Christianity, these 30 denominations, but our policy position is that we promote a shared to Rousseau on a sacred city for three faith traditions and two peoples.
Speaker 2 00:38:52 And historically, you know, the United nations and others have said the future status of Jerusalem should be determined between Israelis and Palestinians. And so, um, where we acknowledge the sacredness of the city to the Jewish people, where we acknowledged the unification of Jerusalem being significant because Jews for the first time after 1967 could go to the Western wall, their most sacred holy site that is believed to be under, you know, the holy, the holy of Holies on the temple Mount. So for us, we acknowledged the sacredness of that and the significance of that, but we don't support the esteeming or the protection of one religious group over the protection and religious freedom of other groups. And so for the embassy to meet, moved to Jerusalem, it was a unilateral decision that elevated Jewish aspirations and the sacredness of the city over Christian aspirations and over Muslim aspirations.
Speaker 2 00:39:54 And so for us, we were strongly opposed to it because we believe in a shared Jerusalem Jews absolutely should have access to be able to worship freely as should Christians, you know, our brothers and sisters in Christ and Ashford, Muslims. And, you know, one of the things that people were paying close attention that was happening right at the time of the embassy celebration, there's actually a picture of, um, uh, the ceremony when the embassy was moved and the plate on the embassy at the very same time that was happening. You have this population group in Gaza that are living under a blockade by the sea. They're living in this Walt territory, 2 million people, uh, some of the greatest humanitarian needs of our time. They don't have potable water. They have limited access to electricity. Uh, the economic needs are profound. There's a lack of free movement and they were protesting.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 Um, and I can't remember the specific timing of it, you know, if it was the right to return or, but it was a protest where they were advocating for their freedom. Some of it is violent. Uh, some of it is non-violent, but you saw these pictures of these people in Gaza, struggling for their freedom and there's tear gas and there's, and it's, it literally looks like a war zone. When you see the pictures next to this embassy being moved into Jerusalem, you know, that was esteemed by so many Christians around the world, particularly in the United States to the point to where I was in Jerusalem, shortly thereafter. And there were signs all over Jerusalem that said, we love you, president Trump, president Trump's picture was everywhere. And they would say blessings to you from the city of David, um, blessings from you blessings to you from DC to DC, the city of, or CD from the city of David to DC. And then they had Jerusalem and the CA the letters U S a in Jerusalem were in red, white, and blue. Wow. Wow. Um, and so I think that juxtaposition of, uh, people that are struggling for their very existence, you know, and the elevation of the aspirations of another people group above and beyond, I think it's an important picture for us to keep in mind
Speaker 0 00:42:12 Quick. Follow-up on that. Have, have there been any other, um, states, any other international communities who have since then acknowledged Jerusalem in the same way that USS Galen,
Speaker 2 00:42:29 There were a few and a few other, I feel like they were south American countries. I don't know who they were off the top of my head, but a few others moved their embassies from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as well. Wow. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:42:41 Um, so again, kind of on our honor on our path to kind of present day, I'm wondering, because you mentioned the protest and you mentioned, um, the Palestinian authority and the hopes and dreams of the Palestinian people. Is this something that you encounter in your work? And if so, what is your response and the sentiment, or the idea is that the Palestinian people, themselves as a group are essentially, it sounds harsh, but this is how I've heard it communicated are essentially to blame because the, you know, kind of in quotes, like they elected them, they are the ones who want to be governed by terrorist, right? Like this is kind of the rhetoric, um, that I hear. And it feels harsh to me just, but as someone who doesn't know enough about the conflict to really quite understand, um, and sometimes I get the feeling that people who are saying that may not understand what they're saying either. Um, so can you just, if you've seen or heard that, like how, how do you respond to that and what, what do you, where do you think that's coming from?
Speaker 2 00:44:03 Yeah, great question. Um, unfortunately we hear that a lot. And so, um, I'll give you an example. That's a little bit anecdotal that I feel like is a bit more extreme than what you just described, but during the 2014 war, which was between, uh, Hamas, uh, which is the political entity, it also has a military wing. Uh, it's deemed as a terrorist group by the United States and by other, uh, international, um, communities. Um, in 2014, there was a war between Hamas in Gaza and Israel proper. And, um, I was working for world vision at the time and the message of world vision was, uh, calling for a ceasefire from both sides because of the disproportionate effect of the hostilities on children. So at that time world vision had 7,000 children in Gaza. And, um, it was one of the largest number of sponsored children in our programs that have been killed by a manmade disaster.
Speaker 2 00:45:04 So we lost several children in the sponsored programs. And so we were meeting with the minister of foreign affairs, the Israeli government, and our entire message was just calling for a ceasefire for the sake of Israel, you know, but specifically because of the disproportionate effect on children, living in Gaza and the death toll coming out of that war in 2014, was there were more than 2000 Palestinian deaths, more than 500 of them were children 500 of 200, 2000 deaths. And there were, um, uh, less than 50 is really deaths. Many of whom were soldiers and each death is significant. So I'm not in any way, you know, comparing, um, but this message of calling for a ceasefire because of the disproportionate effect of children. What we heard so often was yes, but those children are being raised to be terrorist.
Speaker 2 00:46:00 And I say that just because, um, I think a lot of people believe that they don't, you know, and, and I think of the verses of Jesus saying, let the little children come to me, um, you know, or like the people in Gaza voted in Hamas. So they deserved this destruction because they voted them in what people need to realize. The majority of the population in Gaza did not vote in Hamas because 70 plus percent, it might even be 80 plus percent are so young that they didn't vote during the 2006 elections. You know? So the idea that they're responsible because they voted, you know, couldn't be further from the truth. So that's just one idea or one response to that question.
Speaker 0 00:46:44 Oh my goodness. Thank you. Um, I feel like that's, that's an idea that needs to be deconstructed as well. Um, that's, that's something I hear a lot, so I do want to bring us to the spring of this year. I think it was may ish or something like that when we saw the conflict in the region start to escalate again. Um, and there I'll be honest, there was a temptation for me to kind of just let the new cycle fall out because it, it happens every few years. And I don't want to say I'm used to it, but I'm kind of used to it, you know, but because I had started to engage with voices and started to really feel my perspective, being challenged and changed in a lot of ways, you know, and this happened probably over the last few years, um, maybe three to four years, um, I decided to intentionally not ignore this new cycle. It's probably the best way for me to put it. Um, and when I started to dig in a little bit and I had, um, a few friends who were also following it and we were exchanging, you know, text messages and exchanging, uh, podcasts and articles and things like that. I shared a couple of that. You had written actually, um, during that time with a friend of mine, um, but some of this was surrounding, um, a neighborhood, right. Can you like give us the CliffsNotes on what happened in may and how that affected the conflict?
Speaker 2 00:48:20 Sure. So the neighborhood isn't east Jerusalem and it's called Sheck Zara. Um, and you know, when I told the story of my first travels there and seeing signs that said free Palestine, this is a community where there's been protests, um, almost every Friday. And you know, when we talked about some of the unresolved issues of territory and whether or not it was annexed, one of the results is the status of people there and their access to their homes depends on, you know, is the territory a part of Israel proper? Is it a part of east Jerusalem? Is it a part of the west bank? And so Shaq, Shira is one of these neighborhoods where, um, many of the Arab families are Palestinians who had been displaced and were relocated there. So they might not have been there pre 1948, or they might not have been there pre 1967.
Speaker 2 00:49:10 And there's a very, very strong, um, settler movement of Jewish settlers who are ideological. They believe the land should belong to all of the Jews. And so they will actually go and force Palestinians out of their homes. Um, they will, there's an excellent short video that an organization called just division, um, made about Shakira. And it tells the story of this a little 11 year old boy, uh, named Mohammed El purge, who was the grandson, his grandmother owned one of these homes and you can actually see the, his family had built this extension on the home and it was not permitted. So they didn't have the legal protection to say, this is ours because they didn't have permits to build it. And settlers moved in. So it was literally an extension of their home that settlers took over. And so you watch this in the film, my neighborhood, and that home is in Shakira.
Speaker 2 00:50:08 So one of the most ardent voices for human rights coming out of is this young man named Muhammad L curd. Who's now a human rights activist. He's in his early twenties time magazine identified him as one of the 100. He and his sister as one of them, 100 most influential people in the world. And, um, essentially what happened to, you know, this part of his grandmother's home, uh, is happening to a number of families in this neighborhood in . There was a court case. The court came back with a compromise. The Palestinian families said, no, um, it's still actually unresolved, but all of this was happening in may. And it was a little bit of a spark in addition to several other things that happened, um, that, uh, led to the most recent escalations between Gaza and Israel, Hamas and Israel , uh, was one of the incidents that Palestinians were saying enough is enough.
Speaker 2 00:51:09 You know, we want human rights, we want justice. And, um, one of the things that was unique about the may hostilities is you had protests within Israel that looked very similar to black lives matter in the United States. Uh, and forgive me because regardless of what people think politically about black lives matter, that's not my point. My point is the internal resistance. You have citizens of Israel who are Palestinian, who were protesting in ways that we haven't seen in recent decades, uh, which was quite significant. That was kind of one of the components of, um, the may hostilities.
Speaker 0 00:51:44 Can I just say, I think that from, from my perspective, um, part of the difficulty in understanding the history of the region, the conflict in general, and the specific conflicts is that as Americans and I would say specifically as American Christians or evangelical Christians at that, um, we have to hunt to find the Palestinian perspective. I would, I would argue that even someone who has been at a tourist in Israel, someone who has spent, I haven't lived there, but I've spent weeks at a time, you know, in different trips. Um, what I would say is that I'm trying to say this in a really humane way, but the, the images that come in are coming to my mind are not necessarily that, but it's like almost when you, when you go, even to, even to Israel, to the, to the tourists, you places, things like this, um, there is absolutely no exposure to the Palestinian people at all, let alone exposure to their struggle.
Speaker 0 00:52:59 Right. Um, and so when you go in, it's kind of like, there's this beautiful house, right? And then you have like what the, what the people of the house called, like the crazy uncle, like kind of locked back in the closet, you know, back there where it's like, don't nobody go back in that back room. Right. And, and, and it, it almost feels that way, even in the land the way, if you can be that close in proximity, physical proximity to a people group that you don't know exist and you don't know are struggling, it's even more so in north America, I feel like, right. It's even more so, um, in the United States. And so we have to hunt resources and, um, media sometimes, and perspectives from people who have studied the conflict because the voices of the Palestinians and their, and their advocates are not the loudest voices in the room usually.
Speaker 0 00:53:58 Um, and so I did watch that video. I think I found it because honestly, this is the truth, and I'll just say this to the audience in general, um, uh, made it, not put me up to this, but when I see when I saw it and made it, there was a conflict because I had spoken with you, I immediately just Googled like may Canaan articles on Israel, because like I knew that since you had written something probably recently, and it was in one of those articles that I've found a link to, um, the, my neighborhood, uh, documentary that you were talking about. Um, but we have to intentionally search out places and people and perspectives, um, who will give us, um, who will give us that Palestinian perspective, because it's just not what we hear, um, in America, it's very much, um, you know, it's very much the, the camera's kind of pointed toward Israel does that fair.
Speaker 2 00:54:47 Well, and I think part of it is this false assumption that we have in the United States, that there are two sides that there's one Israeli perspective, right? There's rifle. I mean, there's so many perspectives of Jewish Israelis who would agree with us would disagree with that. So you would have nuanced. And so this idea that there's a Jewish side and a Palestinian side, and there's only one of each is just inaccurate. And so we often say, there's not two sides to this conflict is really are Palestinian. The only two sides are those who are for peace and those who are not right. So how do we redefine, um, you know, those realities, but as you were talking, it reminded me, um, someone who I respect greatly as a human rights attorney, who's Israeli, uh, he's a, um, uh, an expert on Jerusalem. Um, he's a reservist in the Israeli defense forces, you know, he's this Jewish human rights.
Speaker 2 00:55:39 Lawyer's name is Danny vitamin. And he says, that is really living in Tel Aviv. And which is an hour away from Jerusalem. He says, Israelis living in Tel Aviv are living on an edge of a volcano while sipping cappuccino. And that just the isolation of you have a wall that separates these two people. You have signs before you go into Palestinian citizens that say, enter upon threat of death, you know? And, um, and so the separation of these two peoples, you know, when you talk about what are the current realities, the current reality is today are worse in many ways than they were 20 years ago. Because 20 years ago, Jewish Israelis went into the west bank. There wasn't a wall and they'd shop in the Palestinian neighborhoods because it was less expensive. So you at least had people being exposed to one another. Whereas today I have dear Palestinian friends who would say the only Israelis we ever meet are soldiers or settlers, both of whom are carrying guns. And our children have never met an Israeli Jewish child. Right. Right. And so that separation, I think, um, makes the job of pursuing peace today, much, much more challenging, you know, than in years past where you at least had access between these two different people groups.
Speaker 0 00:56:58 Right. Wow. May, this is like, I, I just appreciate your ability and your willingness to continually have this conversation. Um, because it's, it's obviously important because, um, there are human lives involved. I mean, this is, it's not just, um, you know, life and death, like we would see in a conflict it's, as you say, it's, it's water it's daily life. It's, you know, all of these humanitarian needs. Um, that I think if honestly, I, I think of American Christians were exposed to, we would be shocked into action. Um, you know, uh, just wanting to see the best, um, for, uh, for our neighbors in, in that part of the world. Um, and so that's, that's part of this for me, is just realizing how much exposure I lacked, um, for so long. Um, even having been in close physical proximity, um, the truth is I enjoyed cappuccinos by the beach with the, with the citizens of Tel Aviv.
Speaker 0 00:58:04 And it's, it's just, it's just the truth. And, um, and there's nothing wrong with walking on the beach in Tel Aviv. It's nice and lovely, but you know, at the same time, um, it is hard to grasp that juxtaposition that's happening, um, in the land right now. So we're like, I'm sure we're past time, but, um, what would you, what would you leave us with? This is like so much stuff and, and, and the history and theology, and so many things that we've covered, but just as, just as Christians who are honestly trying to live in the way of Jesus, the best we can, um, what would you leave us with regarding this conflict?
Speaker 2 00:58:50 Yes. Well, I'm grateful for your willingness to have the conversation. It's never an easy one, right? We never get it quite right. Um, you know, we at churches for middle east peace, our goal is to respect all of the narratives of all of the people of the land while still elevating these issues of responding to the needs of the poor right. Nephew, chapter 25, addressing, um, what does it mean to love our neighbor? Let alone love our enemy. And what's that look in reality in SBS, these questions about Israel and about Palestine. Um, and maybe I'll, I'll just close with this story. Um, we don't have a lot of wins in our work. You know, we look, it looks like we're further away from peace today than we were years ago. And so sometimes I say in terms of like my recruitment speech, it's like, come work with us.
Speaker 2 00:59:44 We'll never win. Right. You know, it's not the best. And I'll say like, it's really hard to get support. We're not a Palestinian solidarity group, right? We're a peacebuilding advocacy group and we're not, you know, unilaterally supportive of Israel, but we seek to love the people of Israel. And so, um, so I leave with this story that this may, I felt so convicted that we're doing what God wants us to do. Um, we were indirect conversations with the white house. We were doing advocacy with the state department and our message was similar to the message that I shared during the 2014 war. We were calling for a ceasefire. And part of the reason we call for a ceasefire is that so children and people don't die. And, um, you know, over the course of the days of the hostilities, if you look at president Biden's rhetoric, it shifted.
Speaker 2 01:00:37 So that the days before the ceasefire, you know, his, he had three different messages that he gave during, um, the time of the conflict. And on the day that the ceasefire came out, I had a phone call with the white house and they said to us that we should know that our advocacy makes a difference. Wow. And that was right before, you know, Egypt essentially brokered the ceasefire, but that would be my encouraging word that actually when we elevate the narratives and when we say we're going to use our voice, we're going to engage in advocacy. You know, we're going to tell stories or listen to stories. We've never otherwise heard that it makes a difference. And I fundamentally believe that less children in Gaza were killed because that were quickly came to an end and that makes our work meaningful. And so the invitation would be join us on that journey as we seek to pursue peace and to advocate for justice because your voice can really make a difference.
Speaker 0 01:01:38 Thank you so much, may that is, um, that is a beautiful word. And I will, um, I will definitely put a link. There would probably be more than one, um, two churches for middle east peace. There are links inside of the website. I can tell anybody how they can get involved, how they can support the work that you guys do. Um, and, and, you know, like I said, this was, uh, this was my go-to place. I went to the website, um, uh, you know, Google Googled your articles because I know that you guys are, um, you're boots on the ground. You are looking at this from, um, from a wider lens than I, than I could on my own. And so I trust what is coming out in your advocacy work in the, in the organization. So I just want to say thank you for what you guys do.
Speaker 2 01:02:28 Thank you so much. And my hope and prayer is may God go before us in it, right. Amen. That's my hope and prayer.
Speaker 0 01:02:36 Amen. Thanks so much, man. Good
Speaker 2 01:02:38 To be with you.
Speaker 0 01:02:43 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
