Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 2 00:00:40 All right, everybody. I'm so thankful today to be sitting actually in the same city. Cindy, it's kind of crazy. I almost never get to interview people for the podcast who are actually neighbors. So I'm in Houston with my guest who is also in Houston, but we're meeting virtually. This is Cindy woo from a Houston organization. Houston welcomes refugees. Hey Cindy.
Speaker 3 00:01:04 Hi Alexis. Thanks so much for having me on your podcast.
Speaker 2 00:01:07 Yeah. I'm so thankful that you were able to come on. Um, I feel like we have gotten a concentrated dose of each other in the last couple of weeks. We have some mutual connections, um, through church and, um, and then we were just able to, to get together in a bunch of different settings over the last couple of weeks. And now we're here for this conversation. So I'm so thankful because I know that you had commented. You're going to get sick of hearing the same presentation over and over, but the truth is that I'm learning something new from you every single time we speak. And I know today is going to be no different for me and for the people listening. So thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 00:01:44 Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 00:01:46 So Sydney, um, I've already said that you're with Houston welcomes refugees, um, which is an organization Houston that we're definitely going to talk about in, in just a little bit, um, maybe in the later part of the podcast, but this organization is not by any stretch of the imagination, your introduction to working with refugees, people who have immigrated, people who have, who are seeking asylum. So can you give us just a little bit of your background, maybe like professionally, organizationally, and even, you know, theologically and personally how you came to work in this space?
Speaker 3 00:02:22 Sure. I'd love to share that. Um, I am the daughter of immigrants from Taiwan. So the newcomer experience, the immigrant experience has been a part of my entire life. We did not come here as refugees. Um, but my parents did experience a lot of the same type of culture clashes and, you know, struggles with integration, that many refugees experience. So from a very young age, I was very drawn to immigrants, um, diverse populations. And I even remember in college contemplating going to law school and getting into immigration law. I even interned at an office, but then God redirected my path into global missions. So, um, it really wasn't until 2009, when I started full-time seminary at Gordon-Conwell theological seminary in the Boston area, that God started to put this specific population of refugees on my heart. We had enrolled in 2008, but it wasn't until 2009.
Speaker 3 00:03:25 When I started to really take some classes that started to shape my perspective. Um, there are two classes that really stand out to me. One is a class on Christianity in Latin America, Africa and Asia that was taught by Dr. Dana Robert at Boston university. And the second class was a class on biblical global justice, taught by Dean Boardman at Gordon-Conwell and in the class on Christianity. On the majority world, we were assigned to read a book called blood brothers by Ellias Schacher. He is a Palestinian Christian who works as a peacemaker in, in the middle east. And I read the story of displacement of this Palestinian family. And when I was reading the book, I realized that I had no idea that there were any Palestinians who were Christians. And I also had to confront my own prejudice about how I envisioned in my mind who a Palestinian was growing up as a child of the eighties.
Speaker 3 00:04:25 The Palestinians were in my mind, just part of the PLO. There were people with turbans and probably terrorists. And I just was really humbled to realize that I had really cast a certain image on an entire group of people. So that story and just the courage that he displayed and becoming a peacemaker after being displaced, um, was really inspiring to me. And then also simultaneously learning about what the Bible has to say about justice. And so those two classes together really started to, um, focus me a little on persecuted peoples. And this includes refugees around the same time that we were in seminary and my husband and I, um, because we had spent time in China doing, um, you know, mission type work. We started to think about where God was leading us next. And we were praying about going to Egypt. Um, started an application with frontiers, got really excited about the possibility of, you know, moving to the middle east and God completely closed that door on us.
Speaker 3 00:05:30 Um, my husband eventually was going into pastoral ministry here in the United States. And when we felt that clear calling on our lives, I remember going to the library at the seminary and feeling very discouraged, very disappointed that we weren't going on the mission field. And I just sat at my desk, you know, really feeling, um, disgruntled really with Conn's call. And then he just clearly reminded me that Houston was one of the most diverse cities in the entire country, if not the world. And that there were a lot of immigrants who lived there and I don't have these types of experiences very often, but I almost felt like God whispered the word refugees into my ear. And so that is how I started to volunteer in the Boston area with refugees. I started, I actually, um, I curated a personal, um, study, like, um, they called it like an independent course where you ask a professor to, um, basically advise or supervise your independent, you know, studies in a certain topic.
Speaker 3 00:06:36 And so I chose refugees and it was through that class that I started to learn a little bit more about the global refugee crisis and then ultimately for my master's program at Gordon-Conwell, I had to write something like a thesis, they call it an integrated project, but it's, um, uh, very, um, comprehensive, um, research-based, um, kind of, um, like project that you have to present. And I, what I did was I wrote a booklet helping Christians in the United States learn about the global refugee crisis, um, like the facts, and then also provide he logical and biblical reflection. And then at the very end practical application for how you can get involved in caring for refugees. So that was my project for seminary, which I many years later was able to publish into an actual book. Um, that was really the heart of that. It aims to be a resource, um, to help the church get more involved in refugee ministry. So that was a rather lengthy way of, um, just detailing my story of how, you know, ever since I was young, had a heart for immigrants and how God very clearly pointed me towards caring for refugees.
Speaker 2 00:07:52 No, I'm, I'm thankful for the answer because it helps us, I think, to gain some context around that, you know, um, it's when, you know, there are certain stories, you know, um, for, for my husband, what he, what he does, like he was in high school and he just, and he knew that's what he wanted to do, you know, professionally. And he went to college and grad school and grad school and did all of the things and it just kind of lined up. But, you know, I think his story is kind of an anomaly, right? It's kind of the exception to the rule in a lot of ways. And, and, um, you know, the, the language that I'm, that I'm learning that I'm enjoying is this is this language of formation, even when it comes to vocation, right? That, that God, as you described in your story, it was forming you and your husband and, and what you would do, um, and, and who you would serve and what that would look like.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 And so I really appreciate the context of that. So thanks for sharing. Um, I do have a copy of this book, so thanks Cindy for getting that over to me. I went over this, um, last week and it's so good. It's reinforcing a lot of the, that I'm learning in other areas and from other sources right now, and it's a really good, um, kind of like compact, comprehensive look on this for exactly what we say. You're serving the church with this. Um, I'll put the link in the, in the show notes for this episode, but it's called a better country, embracing the refugees in our midst. And so before we get too much further, I'm hoping, you know, that whisper from the Lord and even with the organizational name and the subtitle of this, can you give us a definition, like, um, a legal definition for what, uh, what a refugee is, what that constitutes and then Maylee, maybe also, um, asylum seekers, because I think I'm learning that that's kind of a confusing differentiation, um, for some people, even though they're similar. And so could you give us that like legal definition, who are you serving when you're serving refugees in United?
Speaker 3 00:09:52 Sure. So refugees are people outside of the borders of their country of origin who have a well-founded fear of persecution, for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group, the word refugees. Um, when we talk about resettlement, when we talk about legal, legal immigration, there's a very specific and technical way of defining refugee. Many times when we look at hurricane Katrina, climate issues, economic, we'll say, we'll use the word refugee when we're talking about anyone who's fleeing, but when it comes to immigration in the United States and really globally within the, um, the international bodies that are trying to assist with the refugee crisis, that is the official definition. And you're right, that a lot of people mix up the terms refugee versus asylum seeker or, um, yes, refugees versus asylum seeker. And really it's people who have the same issues, meaning that they are being persecuted for those five categories.
Speaker 3 00:10:56 But the difference is where you're processed. So a refugee is someone who is outside of the borders of their home country, and they are going to be processed in that second country before they come to United States and asylum seeker on the other hand is someone who is at, or within the border of the country, where they are seeking asylum. In our context here in Houston, that would look like a lot of people from the Caribbean or from, um, central America, Latin America, who come up to the border of Mexico and Texas. And that's where they ask for that's where they seek refuge. Um, but our organization works with the people who have been vetted and approved by the United nations and by the U S government before they are allowed to come to the United States.
Speaker 2 00:11:42 Yeah. Thanks for that, because that is, um, I was, it was kind of surprising to me when I learned the official definition. Like you said, it has be those five categories and the processing is really important and all of that for the specific definition of refugee, because you're right. We use that term kind of in a, in a loose way when really when it's, when it's, it's a legal definition, um, for immigration.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 Yes. And I do want to emphasize that when people come on a refugee visa, that is a form of legal immigration, but going to the border to request asylum, that is actually an internationally recognized legal process as well. So if you go to the border and request asylum and you're allowed to, you know, wait here or there, while they're processing your papers, that that act of going to the border in and of itself is not illegal or criminal. And that's sometimes also a misconception. Um,
Speaker 2 00:12:43 So glad you brought that up. Um, because I was, I was going to ask you to, to clarify that as well, because I do think in, you know, especially in the news and in media, we kind of see, um, we know we see that, or even we know, talk about securing borders or, you know, border walls or border protection. Um, but that is actually not just the United States lies. You mentioned, this is an internationally legal and acceptable way. It's, it's actually the way right to seek asylum is to present yourself at the border and, and tell the officials that this is why this is why you're here and that you do meet one of those five categories and that you're seeking refuge. And I love how you even phrase that, that people who are seeking refuge, um, and that, so, so we'll come back to that definition.
Speaker 2 00:13:35 But when we talked to kind of before in one of our several casual meetings, you know, I said, we were chatting about like, yes, we want to talk about the organization. Also, Cindy, please, you're a seminary graduate. You have expertise in this area. Can you talk about theologically? Some of the reasons why as Christians, you know, this should matter to us, um, besides the, you know, yes, we need to love our neighbors, but biblically, there is a real precedent for a loving and welcoming refugees, foreigners, strangers. But one of my favorite examples of that is we serve a savior who would, depending upon how you look at it, you know, either sought asylum or was a refugee, you know, even, even based on the definitions that we have now. So can you talk to us about Jesus?
Speaker 3 00:14:24 Sure. I'd love to talk about Jesus. Um, so yes, there is, um, at the core, a theological argument for why anyone who is a Christ follower should be concerned about refugees. Um, not only are refugees or I should say, you know, people who were sojourners among the Israelites, the word for that type of person within their midst is mentioned 92 times in the old Testament and, um, care for the widow, the orphan and the foreigner is mentioned repeatedly throughout the entire Bible. And when it comes to, you know, the foundational character, the person of our faith, um, in that we find in Jesus, we do know that he had to flee because of fear of his life as well. And obviously that was a very different, you know, geopolitical situation, the nation states, um, that we have today, it was not the same exact, um, system that existed back in Jesus's day.
Speaker 3 00:15:27 And so we can't say with, you know, a hundred percent precision, was he technically a refugee or was he technically an asylum seeker as we understand the law today, but the concept is definitely there that Jesus had to flee. Um, and I even think of Jesus as, when you talk about welcoming the stranger, if you think about it, Jesus was kind of the ultimate stranger to humanity to the earth. I mean, he didn't really fit in, um, the same way that, you know, not only in his, his personhood was he different, but also the way that, um, the prejudices of the time, you know, can anything good come out of Nazareth? Um, there, he was looked upon as being quote unquote strange. And so Jesus in many ways is the ultimate refugee, not only as part of the narrative of his life, but also just in who he was. And so it is really important to recognize that about Jesus, that he came and he saved us from our sins, but he also lived a life that gave us an example for how we care for people, the way that he, um, loved the marginalized, the way that he welcomed women into his fellowship, the way that he was kind and compassionate and courageous. And so I think it's very core and foundational to how we approach refugee ministry to look at the life in the ministry of Christ himself. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:59 Yeah. Thank you for that. That's just, it's one of those places. I think even as we, even as we kind of get closer to advent in the Christmas season, you know, when we read the birth story in those early years of Jesus, out of the gospels, that is a place that, you know, for years, I probably just read over, cause it's only a few verses in Matthew, you know, um, where he and his parents fled to Egypt. Um, but even that is kind of wild, right? Egypt was like the place you're not trying to go to Egypt right here. Right. You know, typically in the biblical story, this is a place where people are trying to get away from. Um, but you know, the persecution was so bad, you know, um, that one of these places that historically had been, um, a tumultuous place for the Israelites became a place of refuge, um, for Jesus and his family.
Speaker 2 00:17:49 And I just think it's incredible. And thank you for, for bringing that out about just, yeah, like his whole life, you know, he was, he was a stranger. Um, and, and, and he tells us that when we welcome the stranger, we welcome him into our midst, which is, which is just so beautiful. Um, when you, cause we mentioned earlier the, the presentation that, that you give when you talk to, um, volunteers and, um, church groups, and even in contexts like this, when you're just, um, you know, educating people on this topic and on this subject, I'm going to ask this question and kind of a weird way. So I'm like, what I want to say, just bluntly is like, what's the statistic that makes people crazy, right? Like what's the thing that like surprises people. Um, and so I still want to ask that, but I want to ask it in a way that recognizes that every number that we study or that we read about, or that journals have, you know, written about a research has gone into represents a person like a real human life. And so I don't just want to make it about the numbers, but when you, when you educate people, what are some of the things that you, that you present to them that are kind of astonishing to people or that, or that they've had a different, different conception in you and you, and you kind of tell them what the facts on the ground are.
Speaker 3 00:19:12 This is actually one of the fun parts of doing the orientation is I think a lot of people have opinions on immigration or refugees, but they actually don't have the data. Um, they know a lot of what the new says, but, um, you know, the facts really matter and they can influence our thinking. So there's three statistics that when we discuss them, tend to get a little bit of a, you know, ah, or oh, from the audience. And one is just the number of refugees in the world today. Um, currently there's about 26 and a half million people who are identified as refugees and that's roughly the entire population of the state of Texas. And so that number is just a big number. It's kind of hard to wrap our brain around, you know, what exactly the 26.5 million people like, what does that really look like?
Speaker 3 00:20:02 And so the scope of the refugee crisis is one of the things that really surprises people. Secondly, it's the percentage of children. So about half of all refugees are children. And a lot of us, when we, um, have fears and concerns about immigration, it's rarely about the children, you know, like what are, what are the kids going to do when they come? Um, we're not afraid of the kids, but we have a heart for them. And we think with, you know, with a lot of compassion, like, oh, what are those kids experiencing? So when we say about half of all, refugees are children that tends to get a little bit of a surprise, but the, the statistic that gets the biggest is the percentage of refugees that are actually resettled into a third country in any given year. So we asked the question, you know, what percentage of all the refugees in the world today will be resettled?
Speaker 3 00:20:52 And we, if we do it online, we have a poll, or if we do it in person, we just have people write it down on a sheet of paper. Well, the answer is less than 1%. And many people will guess, you know, 50% or 20%. And when we say that it's less than 1%, they are usually very shocked because the images that they have in their minds of seeing crowded planes, crowded boats, they believe that those people are given, you know, legal permission to live in those countries without understanding that there's actually a process that, that nation states undergo to approve refugees for resettlement. And in the United States, we don't really have the same issues, um, that you will see in the news in Europe, just because of our geography. Um, but it's, you know, less than 1% of all the refugees in the world will come to United States in any given year. And while we do receive a lot of refugees, we don't host a lot of refugees. The hosting countries are places like Uganda and Turkey and Lebanon that are very close in geographical proximity to areas of conflict. Um, and so people are surprised when I say it's a fraction of 1% of all the refugees in the world today will come to United States. So I would say those are some of the numbers that tend to surprise people.
Speaker 2 00:22:14 Yeah. Um, the less than 1% was one for me. Um, going back to what you said about the host countries though, that was actually one for me. So countries, um, that, so can you talk about that, like countries to receive refugees, either as you're saying, like as host countries or, um, some of the countries, I think if I'm remembering correctly, who also ended up resettling refugees, many of them are not these like economically rich countries.
Speaker 3 00:22:44 That's right. That's right. It's a lot of the developing countries are the ones that host the highest percentage of refugees. And again, this has to do with proximity to the areas of countries. So, you know, for more examples, you know, Pakistan, or, you know, Thailand, um, Turkey hosts a lot of refugees. So it's the countries that refugees first flee to some of these refugees are able to find a job, maybe live somewhere temporarily, but it's not that those countries have given them some type of visa to live in that country and work in that country and have all the rights of citizenship of that country. It's none of that. They're just holding them there while they are waiting to resolve the refugee crisis.
Speaker 2 00:23:33 Yeah. What, one more stat question on that? Um, because there's 26 and a half million refugees by the definition that you gave us earlier, but what's the total number of displaced people in the, in the world right now
Speaker 3 00:23:52 At this moment, it's about 80 million. So it's just a staggering number. Um, it's people who have been forced from their homes, the majority of them are internally displaced, which means they're still within the borders of their home country, but it's just staggering. And when I think about the book that I wrote many years ago, um, you know, it was about 10 years ago when I, when I first wrote my thesis project. And I remember at the time there were about 11 million refugees and about 23 million displaced, something like that. And I remember at that time thinking, well, that is just a huge, a massive number. And to think that those numbers have doubled or even quadrupled in just one decade, is it staggering? That is,
Speaker 2 00:24:38 That is that's crazy. I mean, that's, that's, that's crazy. And I, I think, you know, kind of helping us get, um, like a, like a 30,000 foot view of this topic, right. Because I'm even thinking, you know, you compared it can compare the population and the numbers to Texas, but I even think like what if there was a reason where I couldn't go home, like I couldn't be in Houston and I had to live in the hill country, or I had to live, you know, in the panhandle or even, you know, even thinking about Texas kind of as, you know, um, land wise, it's similar to some, some countries. And I'm thinking, what if, what if I just had to go and live somewhere else with, without my family, without my, you know, school and work and church, and, you know, all of those things that are inside of my community because my community was war torn or my community was, you know, experiencing such economic hardship, right. That I couldn't be there and how, um, traumatic that would be and how dramatic that would feel as a person just inside of my own state. Right. And, and, you know, cause I don't want to, even in my mind when I'm trying to think about this issue with compassion, I also, um, have been trying to kind of meditate on this group that are these internally displaced people. Like you said, the majority of people in this space and, and that that's not a walk in the park right. To be in internally displaced from your home.
Speaker 3 00:26:02 Certainly not. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:04 Gosh, thank you so much for that. Um, so there's some misconceptions when it comes to the data because of kind of where we get our information and just, and just what we're encountering, um, in the news and in conversation with, in conversation probably with other people who also don't know, right. If we're being honest, but those misconceptions probably do bring about I've, I've seen it. I don't know if you've seen it since you're, by the time people get to you, they're probably like ready to serve in there and they're, they're in it. But do you see when you're talking with people, um, hesitations, especially from Christians, um, for like, I kind of want to do this or biblically, I've been convinced that this is something that I need to do, but I'm still something is still holding me back. Are there so some sort of hesitation there in getting involved at a deep
Speaker 3 00:26:56 To tell you the truth? I feel very blessed that here in Houston, I think because we're such a diverse and immigrant friendly population, I have received very little pushback and it could be, um, I do kind of have a captive audience. People who attend our orientation, signed up to go to the orientation, right? So there's that, but we do community presentations, we go to schools and so it's not just a self-selecting audience every time. Um, but I would say that some of the hesitations that I hear are around concerns with illegal versus legal immigration. So once we explain that resettlement is a legal process and that refugees have been vetted, most volunteers just automatically feel more confident. The second hesitation I get doesn't have to do actually with any opposition to refugee resettlement, but rather to their own abilities, to be able to be friends, someone from a different culture who may not speak English.
Speaker 3 00:27:49 So a lot of the hesitation I get is insecurity in our volunteers if they could do a good job. And so we talk about how much resourcing and training that we try to offer them. So they feel equipped. Um, but I think probably the third area of, you know, some pushback or hesitation would be, um, around Muslim immigration is people are concerned about how that's going to impact the United States as a quote unquote Christian nation in our culture, the things that we have enjoyed, um, being able to celebrate, you know, um, concerns about, I guess, you know, more progressive thinking and how we can't be outspoken about our Christian faith here in the United States. So there is some concern around that. And what I try to do, what I aim to do is to look at the immigration of many Muslims as a gospel opportunity, a way that you can learn about someone else's faith and humanize people that we have some fear over, um, fear towards.
Speaker 3 00:28:54 And then also maybe have a chance to share about Christ to someone from a different faith background. Um, I also point out that throughout the history of resettlement in the United States, the majority have actually been Christians, the United States, especially for the first 30 years, since 1980 a resettlement, it was predominantly Christian. And it's only been within the past five to 10 years that we're starting to see more Muslims come to United States. So there's kind of this, um, misperception of, you know, the refugees coming in, just overwhelmingly Muslims taking over our country. And I would say in the past handful of years, yes, we have many people coming from Afghanistan and Iraq, but that's because they served alongside our U S military and are treated as veterans. Um, so that's why they are given permission to resettle in the United States. But historically it has been far and beyond Christians who are coming to the us as refugees.
Speaker 2 00:29:53 Thank you for that. Um, I want to get into the, you know, you mentioned the volunteer orientation and stuff, and I really want to get into the programs that Houston Walkmans refugees offers. Um, but real quick, before I do that, I think it's interesting that you bring up the Muslim immigration issue because, um, I just released an episode with your friend, Matt Soerens and, um, my husband, when he does the editing, he, um, he's the one who, who pulls the quotes and the, you know, which I think is really cool because he's kind of hearing this for the first time and he hasn't generally read the book if there's a book involved and stuff like that. And what he pulled was, you know, was a, was a minute audio gram from Matt talking about that very issue, um, of, of, you know, was having the conversation about Muslim immigration from a Christian perspective.
Speaker 2 00:30:45 Um, and so I'll link that in the notes. And then also I had a fuller professor on not long ago and we were talking about just living with people with whom we have deep difference. And he also, um, is really involved in Muslim Christian relations. And, um, and he talked about Muslim immigration from a Christian and biblical perspective as well. So I'm going to link both of those, but you know, if people want to kind of hear more about that from, um, just kind of like a different viewpoint, you know, a different vantage point of that, but that's really interesting that you bring that up. Um, I know one of the things that when I did your orientation, there are what five countries or something where refugees are coming from most right now and the staff that was doing the orientation expected everyone to guess that Syria was at the top of the list, which would include a lot of people of Muslim faith. Um, so they're not number one right now, but no, I think there have been,
Speaker 3 00:31:43 Um, they, they aren't. So a quarter of all the refugees in the world today are Syrian, which is really sad, but Syrians have not been resettled in the United States or in Houston, particularly in very high numbers. And we do get Syrians, but just not in the way that you would think because of how stringent the vetting process is for resettlement number one. But also it speaks to the, the duration of refugee or migration flows. Generally when there is a conflict, people don't think, take me to America right now. They want to linger in that area because everyone wants to go home. They're waiting for the conflict to resolve. And so they're staying nearby so that they can just, you know, go home someday, but we do, we do receive Syrians, but it's, again, it was really big in the news, you know, back in 20 15, 20 16 and 17. Um, and these days we just get serious and pretty low numbers in.
Speaker 2 00:32:39 Yeah. I, I wish we could linger there for a minute, but that was one of the, so I'll just kind of repeat a little bit of what you just said, because that was one of the, that was one of the concepts. One of the statements that I think is helping me grow in my compassion is that people just want to go home, right? Like, like you said, where they're not begging to go be resettled or even to go to that third hold holding country. Um, you know, I met a, a refugee a few years ago who had fled Congo, um, you know, we're touring Congo. And she had been in a UN camp in a neighboring country in Africa for almost 20 years. Wow. You know, she had had a child there, um, you know, she had lived in this camp and, and it was unreal to me, you know, that experience.
Speaker 2 00:33:33 And so I was trying to add up the timelines, like, well, it doesn't take that long to process, you know, and all of that. But the answer that was given to me was a lot of people don't want to immediately process because they want to go home. You know, it's, it's easier to go home from next door, right. Then she'd go through the process and be completely overseas and having to build a new life and go through all of the paperwork and all of that that's involved in that. It's like, let's just, you know, can we just wait another, you know, my mind, right. Can we just wait another day, month, year? You know, whatever it is, um, surely it's going to resolve surely we can go back home.
Speaker 3 00:34:06 And I think, you know, one of the, perhaps you may be an additional, we're talking a lot about like misconceptions around resettlement and refugees. Is they, a lot of people think in America, well, we're the best country in the world. Everybody wants to come here, obviously. And the truth is that a lot of refugees, when they come to United States, they really struggle. There's a lot of cultural clashes. There's, um, even the culture type, you know, as being a lot more of a guilt innocence, Western worldview versus shame honor cultures, and there can create huge, massive generational gaps between parents and their children. And then having the children learn English while the parents don't really improve in English very much. And then that can be very humiliating for the parents. And so there are many dynamics that the families have to deal with and consider before they come to the United States.
Speaker 3 00:34:57 And it's so difficult. Sometimes the integration that, um, I've met many refugees who wish they could go back. In fact, some of my closest friends are Iraqi and they left because ISIS was burning down churches in their neighborhood. And she told me on multiple occasions that she wishes that she could just go back to Iraq. And I said, but you could get killed in Iraq. And she said, I know, but I'd rather be with my parents and my siblings and my home and my food. And she said, life here in America is so hard that it makes me want to go back to a war torn country. And I thought that's just speaks to the depth and the level of the struggle and the challenges that we must not overlook because, because we're caught up in this idea that they've landed in America, the best place on earth.
Speaker 2 00:35:46 Yeah. Wow, good night. We could do a whole other podcast on American exceptionalism and theology of plays and all sorts of stuff on that, but we'll table it for now, but thank you for sharing that example. Yeah. Cause it's, you know, I, I agree with you. Like when you, when you said that it instantly lit up in my head, because that's what we're raised with as, as, as native born Americans is. Yeah. Of course, like it's the best place. Why wouldn't people want to come here? And then, you know, I just think about, you know, myself, like, especially like languages are not my gifting at all. And it gives me, I can feel the anxiety rising up in me when I just try and empathize and just try and say, what if someone just dropped me in France and said fun, you know, to be like, I wouldn't even be able to go to the grocery store, even if I could get there, I wouldn't be able to buy anything.
Speaker 3 00:36:34 Someone dropped you in transcend said, and you needed to find a job within X number of weeks and be able to pay for your and department within X number of months and good luck. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:42 Yeah. Yeah. Well, good luck. I don't speak French, so yeah. Yeah. Gosh, gosh. That's crazy. So thank you for Houston welcomes refugees because you help people with the integration process. This thing that is giving me anxiety, just sitting in front of this microphone right now. Um, you guys help with that, um, in real life, on the ground with real people who have real needs, um, when they come to the states. So what are some of the ways the really like practical and tangible ways that Houston welcomers refugees is able to do that?
Speaker 3 00:37:21 So we have three programs, um, that we invite people in the Houston community to get involved with. The first is called starting essentials. And this includes welcome kits and move in teams, welcome kits are donated household items that we give to refugees as they begin to start their life over. Um, we have different kits for different places in the home. And we actually provide specified lists for volunteers so that you don't have to think up yourself or what does, what does a refugee need in their homes? Um, moving teams are small groups of people who show up to an apartment that Dave and arrival, and they set up the apartment, they hang up the towels, they make the beds, they provide groceries in a hot meal and just really make the, the empty apartment, a home so that when a refugee arrives, their travel weary, they walk into the apartment, not expecting anything and instead they receive a warm welcome.
Speaker 3 00:38:12 So I really love both of those programs, um, for the way that they can provide materially logistically for refugees. But the heartbeat of Houston welcomes refugees is our friendship program. And this is welcome teams who walk alongside a refugee family for six months as they integrate into life in the United States. Welcome teams are groups of either friends or small groups or just people that I put together. And they are assigned to one refugee family for again, four to six months. And their job is really to focus on friendship and support. Our welcome teams will help with enrollments. They will, um, maybe drive refugee families to medical appointments, but they also take them to the zoo and take them to the library and have fun and have dinners together and go on walks and play games at the parks. We don't replace the job of the caseworkers who manage things like benefits, but we come alongside as cultural brokers and as friends who support into your them on as they integrate into life and Houston.
Speaker 3 00:39:16 And then our third program is community education. This includes orientations and any speaking engagements that we have around the city to educate the Houston community about refugees. So those are the three programs and the ways to get involved. And, um, one of the things that I also like to emphasize about these different programs is that when you look at welcome kids, those are things that you can do on your own time. There's no time, commitment or time limit to doing welcome kids. A lot of the churches on, um, the outskirts of the city, like in the suburbs who might have a harder time driving into Southwest Houston, where refugees live really enjoy doing welcome kids, because it's a very hands-on and tangible way of meeting an important need, but, um, provides a lot of flexibility, same thing with moving teams. It's just a one hour commitment and you can select the time slot that you want to serve.
Speaker 3 00:40:13 And welcome teams is a much greater commitment. There's actually an application process and then an additional training and then the four to six month commitment. Um, but I think that welcome teams is also very rewarding because then you get to have a friendship with, with a refugee. So, um, we try also to target a range of volunteers from babies, all the way to retired persons. There's something for anyone to get involved with refugees. Yeah. And here's the welcomes refugees. Isn't a super old organization. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Cause I love the origin story of Houston welcomes refugees. Sure. We were founded in early 2016, so we're almost six years old and it started really just by two moms who were introduced to one another out of their mutual concern for refugees. And one of the moms was taking a class it's called the perspectives on the world Christian movement.
Speaker 3 00:41:12 And at the end of the course, you have a homework assignment where you have to come up with some type of ministry plan to meet the need of a specific people group. And the mom was asking the question, what is the church in Houston doing to welcome refugees at that time, there was no concerted effort among to be mobilized to welcome refugees. And so these two moms just put their heads together and they're the ones who founded Houston welcomes refugees as a way to mobilize the church specifically. And so we were volunteer led for the first two years, and then we had our first, um, executive director who was hired in the third year. And at the moment we have six staff, four are full-time and two are part-time. Um, and we actually hired three of them just in 2021 because the organization is growing. And because we are receiving so many refugees right now, specifically Afghans,
Speaker 2 00:42:10 Can you, um, just mention you, we kind of use Texas earlier as an example for, um, population and how many refugees there are in the world, but how many refugees? And I know the stats change based on the politics and the policies and the needs, but, um, in general, kind of what does Houston's welcoming of refugees look like numbers wise or, or give us some comparison. So we can kind of wrap our heads around that.
Speaker 3 00:42:36 Houston is actually one of the most welcoming cities in the United States and we have been for a very long time. So if I just look over the past decade, Houston at times was the top resettlement city in the United States. Um, things did change a lot with the Trump administration, but prior to January, 2017, Houston was receiving two to 3000 refugees per year. And that was that received a lot of community support. It was really kind of under the radar, not controversial, you know, nothing that was worthy of protest, largely because we're such an immigrant friendly city. Um, but during the Trump administration, those numbers really declined very drastically due to reduced, uh, refugee admissions ceilings just across the United States. So for fiscal year 2020 and fiscal year 2021 Houston received in the six hundreds range of refugees. But for this next year, fiscal 2022, the projection is closer to 8,600.
Speaker 3 00:43:43 So a 13 fold increase and the vast majority of those are going to be Afghans. I will tell you that as we are recording this, Houston is projected to receive approximately a thousand refugees this week. Wow. And so that 8,600 number might even grow. This is an effort to move the refugees who are at the various military bases around the country to resettlement cities. This is not a very realistic pace, you know, of resettlement. But the amazing thing about Houston is that we have an infrastructure. We have resources, they are being stretched right now. I'm telling you, but there is the will to try to resettle as many refugees as we can. We have tremendous community support.
Speaker 2 00:44:33 Amazing. So I'm just going to say, all right, Houstonians, let's call Cindy. We're going to put, we're going to put all the information in the show notes that we can help so that we can so that we can reach in and help. Um,
Speaker 3 00:44:47 I am convinced that the church in Houston has the resources to meet the needs, and it's just, we need to do more information, more mobile, more mobilizing, more education and more equipping. But if you add together all the megachurches and all of the Christ followers in this city, we have the ability and the resources to welcome this many people. And we're talking about some of the world's most persecuted peoples from some of the least evangelized countries in the world. So it's a tremendous missional and gospel opportunity.
Speaker 2 00:45:22 Oh my goodness. Preach. Thank you so much. Um, so as we're wrapping up, I normally ask like, what did we not talk about? Like what, what do you want to get out there? And so I'm going to for sure. Ask, ask that question. So that's the first one on the table, so I'll give you an an and or so, so hit us with that and, or a story from a, from a volunteer that you've, that you've encountered or, um, a refugee family or individual, um, or someone who has really been impacted by, um, someone who loves Jesus, you know, walking, I'm walking with them along the way. So if you have a story to share, or, and if you have something else that you want to kind of make sure that people hear in this conversation, what would it be?
Speaker 3 00:46:10 Sure. Yeah. I love the invitation to do that. Um, the thing that I would like to say is, um, well, I can think of two things. Okay. The first is that I want to make sure that as we talk about refugees, that I don't give the impression that refugees are all in, um, like a very lowly dire state when they come many of the refugees that we receive have a lot of education, they speak multiple languages, some are quite fluent in English and they have means they have education. So it's really important that we don't treat refugees as a monolith. Um, I think sometimes when we are trying to emphasize needs, that can inadvertently happen. But when we think about how to treat refugees and look upon them with dignity, you know, first they're all creating the image of God. But secondly, when we get to know them, we have to be willing to ask all the right questions about their background, because you can't go in with refugees and make the assumption that they're uneducated or poor.
Speaker 3 00:47:16 Um, so it's really important that we don't look at refugees as a monolith. And then secondly, I really want to emphasize the idea of kinship with refugees in that when you, at the, the way that Christians are supposed to operate in this world, we are in the world, not of the world. And we don't look at this world as our permanent destination. We are constantly aware of the fact that we are, our citizenship is of heaven and that we are seeking a better country. And that's where the title of my book comes from is that we like refugees are seeking a better country to live. And so there are a lot of parallels spiritually, spiritually for Christians. And then, you know, realistically for refugees in the way that we kind of go through life as, um, as sojourners. So the opportunity, you know, befriending a refugee and getting involved in refugee ministry, I think it has the potential to really, um, magnify that spiritual, um, component, that spiritual parallel, um, that can have, it can really enrich.
Speaker 3 00:48:30 What I'm trying to say is it can really enrich your spiritual life. A lot of times, people don't want to be inconvenienced. You know, there are a lot of things that we have to overcome when we do refugee ministry, the language barrier, the drive, you know, it's hot, it's, it's uncomfortable, it's awkward. But we like to say that we think those things will be good for your soul. So I want to encourage people to get involved with refugees, not because it's necessarily going to be fun or easy, which sometimes it is fun and sometimes it is easy, but it can also be challenging. But I want to invite you to embrace that challenge and to, um, really try to take that on as something that could help you grow in your spiritual understanding of what it means to also be a Sojourner as a Christian.
Speaker 3 00:49:16 Um, the story that I'll share, um, I'll, I'll share, let's see, we have a story for my ministry and then I have a personal story. So the story from our ministry is that there was a Rohingya family from Myanmar, formerly known as Burma. They, you know, the Rohingya are stateless. They are not accepted in me and Mar nor the surrounding country. So basically nobody wants the Rohingya and they are a Muslim people. Well, there was this one family that we welcomed about four years ago, they had been moved, um, to several countries before they finally came to the United States. And they said, when they came to the states, they had a small heart because they had been used to, um, everyone else hating them. But when they arrive at the airport and they saw a welcome team with a sign waiting to greet them total strangers, it kind of softened and opened up their heart a little bit.
Speaker 3 00:50:13 And this welcome team, and this family became very close friends. The, the wa the wife of the, um, refugee family, she came over pregnant and the welcome team volunteer was able to go with her, to the hospital for a very, um, precarious delivery labor and delivering the mom or the wife ended up meeting to have a C-section. And, you know, they didn't have a translator in the hospital for this particular woman. And so the volunteer kind of how to use some of her resources try to call around for a translator. And ultimately, um, the woman would not really listen to the doctors, but she ended up listening to the welcome team volunteer because of their friendship and because of the trust that she had in her and the volunteer was able to convince the Rohingya woman to get the medical treatment that she needed to potentially save her life.
Speaker 3 00:51:07 And so that was just a really beautiful story of how you can really be there as a support for, you know, a refugee friend. Um, but then also receive back the friendship. Um, they have a, long-term just really beautiful relationship. And so that's just one story that we like to share in our ministry. Um, actually I have another story from HWR that you could share instead, if you want. In 2017, when president Trump was sworn into office, he immediately implemented a Muslim ban and there was a family from Afghanistan that was flying to Houston when the band started. So when they landed at IAH, the customs officials actually did not know what to do with this family. So they held them for eight hours to try to figure out, you know, are we allowed to let them come into the country in light of this ban?
Speaker 3 00:52:03 Well, the welcome team that had been assigned to this family was at the airport and they waited for eight hours, so that when customs finally released the family, there were these total strangers probably starving at this point with signs and, you know, a welcome for this family. And just imagine how that family felt when they knew that total strangers had waited eight hours to just make sure that they were able to come to Houston. So that's a really beautiful story of the type of extravagant love that we want to pour out on refugees. The personal story that I want to share is that about eight years ago, we befriended an Iraqi family. They were actually Orthodox Christian, so they weren't, they aren't Muslim, but they're Orthodox Christian. And, um, their kids are almost identical. Their three kids are almost identical ages. As my three kids.
Speaker 3 00:52:53 We became very close with this family. And one summer we invited the son, um, to go to summer camp with us. And at summer camp, he gave his life to Christ. So he definitely identifies as a Christian having been raised Orthodox, but in terms of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't think that he had quite understood what that meant. And so at camp, he stood up when there was an invitation to place your faith in Christ. And I asked him later, did you understand what you were doing? Did you understand what that meant? And he said, yeah, I didn't understand what that meant. So, um, that was just a beautiful, um, thing to happen in his life and the, his mother, the child's mother, and I are pretty close friends. And she's told me before that I'm like a sister to her. And so I just really love having interact, you know, Orthodox Christian sister and we've, um, celebrated birthday parties, new year's Eve together. And one of the things, um, that I just absolutely cannot fail to mention that when you befriend refugees, you get to eat some really good food. So I didn't realize how much I just adore Afghan food. And I was so like Iraqi food as well.
Speaker 2 00:54:05 I mean, he startings are all about that, right? Like, I just feel like we are like, when we, when my husband and I moved to the part of the city that we're in right now, it was it several years ago when we were watching, uh, diners drive-ins and dives. And I was like, do you know how many of those places are like within walking distance of our house? You know, it's crazy. Yeah. And a lot of them are, are definitely, um, you know, that was, gosh, that's something else we could go into, right. Is how many immigrants and refugees and it being entrepreneurs and, and have, you know, restaurants and businesses and things like that. And, um, you know, the contribution, it's a mutual exchange. So, um, thank you for those stories. And, and thank you for pointing out, you know, what you did, um, about when we emphasize the need.
Speaker 2 00:54:47 Sometimes we can kind of create this model within our mind, but just to remember that everyone that we're, um, you know, that, that you guys are serving at Houston wants welcomes refugees. And every one of us are made in the image of God. And just to keep that in mind, as we try and treat each other with that dignity, that, um, that he would have us to, um, to treat one another with. So Cindy, where can we, um, where can we get more information about the organization? If people are interested in volunteering or being able to, um, help the ministry, where can they go,
Speaker 3 00:55:18 Please visit our website, Houston, welcome directly gs.com. And the first way to get involved is to attend an orientation and a link to that. Those available dates will be on our website.
Speaker 2 00:55:29 Awesome. Thank you so much, Cindy, for your time today.
Speaker 3 00:55:33 Thanks Alexis for having me. It was really a pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 2 00:55:37 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode
Speaker 1 00:55:40 Can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B SETI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
