Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day, everybody happy new year. Again, I think this is going to air this month. Ashley. So I'm feeling like we're just going to, I'm just going to say happy new year until everyone's tired of hearing me say it. We're going to enjoy some of the fresh, some of the freshness that January brings with it. Um, I'm sitting here with Ashley Hales, who is the author of a spacious life trading hustle, and hurry for the goodness of limits. And I really have one complaint about this book and it doesn't have anything to do with you. It's that? I have had it sitting on my shelf for way too long, and I just now picked it up and I'm like, well, this would have been a word that would have been helpful.
Speaker 2 00:01:23 Yeah. I love that.
Speaker 1 00:01:24 But here it is. And, um, and I'm so thankful for it. So Ashley, can you tell us a little bit about you and a little bit about where this book came from for you? Because we're, we're going to dig into it, but a spacious life feels a bit like an oxymoron when we, when people are going to hear us talk about the content.
Speaker 2 00:01:43 Yeah. Yeah. So, um, my name's Ashley Hale and I am a writer and a speaker married to my husband for almost 20 years. Um, he's a pastor and we are in Boulder county, Colorado. Right now we have four kids and you know, this book really came from the sense, I think maybe it's just middle-aged. But I think that there's, there's a lot of resonance, I think, especially for folks who are younger too, and just starting out where we've been told these messages about you can be anything you want and you need to like go chase down your dreams and what a good life is, life full of hustle and hurry. And that's really what our particularly American Western context reminds us. That we're only good to the extent to which we can work hard and produce. And we're only living a, you know, a good life to the extent that we can have something to show for it.
Speaker 2 00:02:41 Um, and you know, in the story of the Bible, instead of a hustle harder sort of message, right, we get the, the messages of laying down your life and sacrifice. Um, and we don't usually like that. Um, but we find that actually from the very first pages of the Bible, that limits are built into creation. That they're good. Um, and so if Jesus comes into our world, picks on our human flesh, he, he was limited. He was perfect, but he was also limited because, you know, he had to sleep and he had a body and he couldn't be in all places at all times. And so I just really found so much comfort in looking at the story of Jesus, particularly and different aspects of his life and the ways that he embraced his limit for a pattern for us to also embrace our own limits and to find the actually there's goodness there.
Speaker 1 00:03:35 Yeah. I mean the two things that kind of, um, almost, I wouldn't say ad ad worked like bookends to me when I was reading this, but, um, one of the, one of them, so Ashley's got beautiful prayers at the end of each one of these chapters. And as I was finishing the book up, I thought, okay, well the whole, the whole message of this book could be summed up in this line from one of, one of these prayers that you've written, may my limits always draw me to you. Um, and, and it is, as you say, there are times when I will catch myself saying, why can't I just do that? Like, like, or it's easy for her, you know, like, shouldn't, I just be able to whip this out or should not just be able to do this. And it's like this really weird space that sometimes I live in, I don't think I'm the only one where like, we can clearly see what needs to be done.
Speaker 1 00:04:37 And we're aware on some level of the fact that we can't do it, but at the same time, it's like, well, we should just be able to it's the easy button. Right. We should just be able to push it and it should be done. Right. But that's just not how we were created, like God designed us within limits. Right. And I think that, that's one of the things that your book helped me to reconnect with is that this isn't some sort of fault or some sort of like, you know, it's a bug in the system, right? Like this is God's design for us, is that we're limited. Um, and the place where I, I thought, oh, I get, this was in your opening chapter when you talk about the grocery store in America. Yeah. Tell that story again. Cause that's wild and fun for me.
Speaker 2 00:05:27 So my husband and I did our graduate degrees in Edinburgh, Scotland, and we were used to, you know, walking and only taking what we could go in our two shopping bags. And so when we would come home or when we moved home and we would go into these huge grocery stores and there's like 18 aisles full of like perfect shiny thing, um, you know, the cereal aisle, right. There's like 18 varieties of Cheerios. And, and I talk a little bit about the condiments. Um, and just, I remember looking at like, how is there like 20 versions of man I used to, and, you know, every size and brand and permutations, um, and just feeling overwhelmed by the choice. And, you know, I think that sort of attitude, you know, it's not always about condiment choices in the grocery store, but we have that just in the water that we swim in, in American life where we kind of think that more is better, that more choice is better.
Speaker 2 00:06:29 And we think that the good life is found in freedom to make any choice, you know, in any sort of way. Um, but the acceptance of our limits is really the way in which we actually flourish in that kind of guard rails that God has given to us that we can actually flourish. And so I think, you know, as we, as you think about your own limits, whether it's limits of your body or limits of your time or attention or a season of life or limits your face, um, yeah, like you were saying, Alexis, the invitation is to press into them. We tend to either like shut down, like it did in the grocery store, or we tend to kind of push against our limits or try to control them or fight against them or, um, you know, kind of distract ourselves from them through Netflix or scrolling the internet. Um, and all of these things are not obviously healthy way to deal with our limits, but we can really find if we follow the pattern that Jesus said of actually connecting with God, the father through our limits, that we'll live a more spacious life, less hurried, less frantic frenzy,
Speaker 1 00:07:40 But, but it is, as you say, it's an invitation. And I had a friend years ago who was inviting me to, to an event. She wanted me to help out, um, with something at it. And she said, I want you to know this is truly an invitation, which means that you can say no. Right. And, um, and it's like, there's for us, as you say that this is the water that we're swimming in. It is really easy to say yes to the idea that we can do it all and have it all and, and be everything at once. And I think that when you talk about Jesus, as you did just a few minutes ago, um, one of the things that I've just kinda been personally theologically wrestling with is, is somehow in focusing on Jesus divinity, how we've disembodied him in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 00:08:33 And we don't focus on the parts of his humanity that you named, that he had to sleep, that he couldn't be everywhere at once. Um, and that he, by coming into this world as a person did, as you say, it limited himself, like he, he really only lived in one region of the right and not a large one. We know he wasn't this like world traveler, like we've talked about now, you know, like I'm going to go to 80 countries and you know, this, this wasn't even the light that Jesus lippy walked, the places that he went and he was even geographically, uh, limited and, and limited by the time and history, um, even that he, that he's spent his life here. So anyway, it's just, it's just crazy that we think this is also one of the invitations that Jesus gives us is to lean into our limited NES, I guess.
Speaker 2 00:09:35 Yeah. Right. And, you know, I think there's a way in which we can, we can use our limits to kind of offset responsibility, and that's not what I'm talking about, and I'm not talking about limits that are imposed upon us for like oppressive reasons. Um, these are kind of our natural human limits, but you know, the fact that you have a body and that you need sleep and you know, that God has called you maybe to, to work and to live and to love a particular place. Um, and so much of the time, even those natural good, normal human limits we hide against, um, and we find ourselves angsty and confused or envious of others and what they have, what they seem to accomplish. Um, and I think social media has just exacerbated exacerbated that for sure.
Speaker 1 00:10:24 Well, I was just, I was just looking back again to kind of jog my memory of some of the places that really stood out to me. And, and I was reminded of the chapter that Jesus isn't on Instagram, um, which is true. Um, but there are also places that, you know, it's not, it is our social media culture, but it's also just the, the rapid culture that we're in. Um, that one of the spaces that you talked about was this limit of having to wait on things. Can you talk about the cucumbers?
Speaker 2 00:11:00 Yeah. So, um, we, it was probably, I don't know, maybe it was during the pandemic, um, early on and we needed something to grow. We needed to like get our hands in the dirt and do something. We ended up family activity with four kids. Um, and so my husband built the planter and we all picked out, you know, just something small to put in it. Um, and my daughter picked out this cucumber plant, and of course there was other things that took a long time to take off, but the cucumber plant was fantastic. It just like quickly there's spines and all of a sudden there's fruit. And she, it became something beautiful to watch. It became magical, right? Every, every day she would get our green glass like watery Dan and water it, and she would tend to it. And of course it gave a harvest, which was great, cause not everything we plant, you know, actually turns out to grow, but you know, it reminded me it, you know, in that moment, as I saw her joy, how waiting can actually be a gift, it can be something that surprises and delights us.
Speaker 2 00:12:05 And most of the time, you know, we want instantaneous results and, you know, we want to change our behavior or our bodies or time or attention to our, you know, our rhythm instantaneously. Um, and God always seems to work much slower than we would like. And so I think waiting if we begin to pay attention to it, if we accept that as an invitation to press into who we are and who God has created us to be and what he has for us, it can actually be really illuminating because oftentimes we push it off. You know, if you think about waiting at the grocery store line, usually pick out your phone. Um, we distract ourselves from what waiting tells us, which is ultimately that we aren't in control and that we are contingent and communal human beings. Um, and so, you know, I think some, a lot of the buck is just helping us to reframe these limitations on our time or attention and actually ask like, what is the gift? What is the invitation here so that we can begin to actually embrace some of those limits?
Speaker 1 00:13:13 Yeah. You know, on, on the podcast, generally, you know, the little little tagline that we have is exploring God's generosity and justice. And when I was reading your book and thinking about talking to you in this context, I'm like, people are not going to buy it. If I say God's limits to us are actually gifts, right. There actually are huge part of his generosity toward us. You know, you have that chapter where you talk about going up into the mountains and the lack of guard rails, right? Like guard rails are, um, are a gift to us. And, and, you know, I wanna, you know, restate what you did, this isn't, this isn't the limits that are imposed on us. Right. These are our natural God-given limits. Just like, you know, earlier when we talked about Jesus geography, like I'm in Houston and you're in Colorado and we're limited by our time and space right now, you know, because people, um, but that, those guard rails that, you know, that actual lacking of them was scary for you guys driving up the mountain. Um, but it's a beautiful picture of how the naturally imposed limits that God has given us really are aspects of his generosity and how much he is gifting us.
Speaker 2 00:14:41 Yeah. And you think of like speed limit. If we didn't have speed limits, that would be more like lane lines or, you know, traffic signals, how much more chaos would there be. And there's actually was a study done. Um, I don't remember when or exactly, but it was something to the extent that, you know, they had put, uh, a fence or a large fence around a playground and, you know, they were studying kind of children's behavior. And so when they didn't have the fence and it was kind of an open space and there was street, like the children didn't play and, or they didn't play as creatively, or, you know, they all kind of huddled close to the center. But when that, when there was a fence, but there was actually invited play that because there was some safety around it. Um, and often times I think, you know, even from the very first, not the very first, the third chapter of the Bible in Genesis where we, we rebelled against God's control, um, the human race has. And so we tend to rail against those fences, right. That he's put up. Um, if our, what does it look like to live a flourishing life? We'd rather figure it out ourselves. And so, you know, I think there's just a lot to remember that as we grow in our face is a lot of how we put ourselves under the authority of God is by embracing those limits and saying how you actually plan for humans flourish, I'm going to follow,
Speaker 1 00:16:13 You know, one of the places that I think I'll be mulling over for a while is when you talk about community. And I wasn't expecting that aspect when I started reading. But, you know, as, as you said, we swim in this water that says we can do it all. We can have it all we can be at all. Um, there aren't any limits and, and natural consequence of that mentality is another mentality that diminishes the importance of community. Right. Because if I can do it all, then why do I need you?
Speaker 2 00:16:58 Right.
Speaker 1 00:16:58 And, um, and so I want to, before we started recording, I was just asking, you know, about your kids and stuff and saying I've had the same Costco experience that you've had a thousand times, right. Especially when my kids were really little, we had before our fourth one came along, we had three under the age of three for about 10 months. And at that point with the third kid, I don't know how you were, but I was like, look, forget this. We're not, we're not huddling up at home anymore. Right. We're out and about. And so we, I literally had two, two year olds in the seeds, in the Costco cards because they're brilliant for, for parents because you can put two there. And then I had my third in a buggy. I mean, you know, in the little car seat, in the big part of it, right. I don't even know if I needed anything. I was just like, we're getting out and I'm getting a hot dog, you know, forget this. Right. But you, but you talk about that experience. And, and, and as a parent, I could relate to that because of the communal aspect that you talk about, um, with the big families. So do you mind kind of resharing that?
Speaker 2 00:18:07 Yeah, no, I think, um, I think it's just, it's interesting because our families are kind of our first way in which we learn, you know, how the world works. And what's interesting is I'm an only child, but then I have four kids. So I have very different like childhood experience versus, you know, as a mother. And, you know, when you have less kids, particularly you can kind of fashion your time and your attention near desires, your budget, how you want. And there's something about just adding more people to your household, whether it's children or not. Um, that really, really brings our limits to bear, you know, and, and to really realize, okay, you know, maybe my kids are not able to do quite as much, um, you know, extracurriculars or what have you. Um, but they are learning from their various early ages, how to be a part of a community they're learning that they need to think about their own wants and desires and be able to actually see how it affects the whole family community.
Speaker 2 00:19:11 And I think sometimes we don't learn that until much later, either the size of our families or, um, you know, the financial abilities of our families are so many different things are our lack of actually neighborhoods, belonging. There's so many reasons about how we have tended to think of community in terms of consumer relationships and what God, as a community gives for us, right. Is also the birth of the church, the churches, like our first family that helps us learn how we are. We are members of one body. We need each other, we all have different gifts. We all have different abilities. There's different seasons where we need to compensate for one another. Um, and I think that's such a beautiful image of the church. And unfortunately it just, it's not always our reality. Um, but I think we can get, I have hopes and dreams that we can get back there.
Speaker 2 00:20:04 Um, because Jesus talks about the church as assaults, right. Salt of the earth. Um, and so in the chapter on community, I talk about community as gathered salts. We need each other, right. One piece of salt doesn't really do much. Um, but we need to be kind of scooped up, scoop up in handfuls and use to tenderize meat and use the flavor food. Um, and that's really, it's really hard because it goes against, um, our, our sunset personal happiness and personal autonomy are the way to a good life. So, um, but it's, you know, as we have all been in really life-giving communities, I'm sure we can remember that those sacrifices for that community, whether it's a family or some of the groups were worth it.
Speaker 1 00:20:57 Yeah. Um, that chapter was, um, was really powerful. Uh, so I don't know if either one of us mentioned it, but going back to the Costco experience, is someone asking you, are they all yours? Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Right. They're all mine. Yeah. That's the idea. We get that a lot too. Right. I feel like I get it still, even though my kids are a little older, it's, we're all, all together in an elevator somewhere. Right. Or are they all yours? Yes. They're all mine. Um, but you know, right now, and I would say, I don't necessarily know if it's because it is happening more now or it's just because things are more visible with social media and other, other forms of media and communication being much easier and things like that. But, um, but as you mentioned, like things aren't, aren't always that way in the church.
Speaker 1 00:21:50 And, and it's really hard. Um, because I think sometimes we can try to just like bury that or act like it's, you know, make ourselves numb to it or act like it doesn't really matter. But when we think about the fact that this is how God has designed us, um, then the hurt makes sense. Right. I, I think, I think there's sometimes when we think either of ourselves or of someone else, it shouldn't hurt that bad. You know, if things like that community when community isn't functioning very well, um, inside the church, but, um, but it does. And it's not just because we are individuals and we're only worried about ourselves. I think it's because in part, because we have committed to one another, right? Like we have, I have exchanged these things that are limited for me in, you know, in inside of this community and we've invested of ourselves and of our limited resources and when things go wrong, um, then it really hurts. And, um, and I know, I know your husband is the one who is technically the pastor, but as a, but as a person who has been in the church for as long as you have and loves the church like you do, um, can you take a minute to just maybe talk to people who have been hurt inside of that community? I know it's not exactly the focus of your book, but, um, if you could just take a minute and, and I don't know, encourage people maybe inside of that community.
Speaker 2 00:23:32 Yeah. I think, um, you know, if the church is meant to be kind of our family, you know, and, and then it's like, you're saying could be hurt by, you know, the God's our father, the churches, our mother, you know, to be hurt by your, your spiritual mother, um, feels like the trail. It does. And I think I'm in my forties now. So I like the extent to which maybe like in one's twenties or even early thirties, you're like dealing with wounds from your family of origin and like processing them. And sometimes like you blame your family of origin, did all these things wrong. Um, but then you come to a point of acceptance, maybe it's in your thirties or forties, I think for you to realize like they are doing the, they were doing the best they can. Most of the time, most of our parents really were doing the very best they can.
Speaker 2 00:24:33 And so if we're going to extend the metaphor to the church, I think there is a natural process where it's right and appropriate to mourn and to, um, work through all that all of your church hurts. Um, but that like our, you know, as we deal with families of origin, there's a point in which we have to realize that if Jesus died for his church and if he calls the church, his bride and he has given himself for her, that we cannot abandon the bride of Christ either. And so there's just this tension, I think, is on the one hand to both acknowledge church hurt, to put words to it, to, to be able to speak out against injustice. Um, and at the same time to also hold in the other hand, the sense that I'm not going to leave her, um, the global church because Jesus never did. And so my call is I am grafted into bad himself is to also not give up on the church. So I think it's just this marvelous and really challenging tension to both acknowledge and state hurt that if we are people of hope, we ultimately have to do that and to work through that so that the church can be healed and not turn our backs on her.
Speaker 1 00:26:08 Thank you. I know that was it just like a little bit off topic, but, um,
Speaker 2 00:26:12 But yeah, it's so tricky and it, yeah, and it's hard, I think in social media spaces where you can see whatever space you're in, you can find like people who have very similar kind of niche experiences. And so that's why being limited in our actual places. Good news too, right. Is that you have multiple races and multiple generations and multiple ways people vote, you know, um, and you have to figure out how to get along. Um, and so sometimes when we talk about church hurt, particularly, it's important that you actually go to your actual surgeons, talk about it with people, with lots of different experiences than you, and a lot more wisdom. Maybe it can help you process.
Speaker 1 00:26:52 Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree. I think it's, you know, as, as I just turned 40 and I, so I'm kind of relating and resonating a bit to this season of life that you talk about. And, um, and I think part of the, part of the good that's coming, you know, through the process, not just for me, but through, for a lot of people is, um, you know, as you talked about your family of origin and processing the wounds and things like that, I think you come to love them in a different way. Right? Some of it feels that even a bit more profound than it did when we were younger or when we were kids, you know, it's, it's a different kind of love. It's a maturing, you know, kind of love. And, and probably in similar ways, you've been married almost 20 years.
Speaker 1 00:27:39 We've been married 18. And it's like, I loved my husband when we got married when we were children. Like, like, it felt like we were actual children. Right. Um, you know, but now, you know, even today as, as he, as he went up to work, I'm like, I love him, but it's, it's a different kind of love, right? The, the love it is, has matured over these years. And I think that getting to love the church that way and, and seeing her wounds and her ability to wound and still choosing to love, um, and process and look at her for who she is, um, is also a beautiful thing. It's a hard thing, but, um, but it's a beautiful thing, but I appreciate that Jesus has never left us. Right. And he's, and he won't. Um, so kind of switching, switching gears, if you'll indulge me, I, um, I don't, I don't play well, like, like at all, like I'm, I'm not, I'm not good at it. I'm task oriented. Um, you know, I don't know if some of it comes from being a mom of multiple children and just always feels like there's something kind of to be done. And, and my husband is really, really good at it, which just makes it even worse for me, like even harder. Cause he's so good at it, but, but you have this whole, you know, in this, in this spacious life book, you have this whole place where you talk about the importance of play.
Speaker 2 00:29:24 Yeah, yeah. You know, I think really a spacious life is inviting us in a lot of ways to be, to be children again. Um, because our, our deepest identity is that God's children. And so what do children do well, right. They play and it's secure children, right. Who play and that they can risk. Um, and they can look silly. And, you know, it's only as we get older and have all of these responsibilities that we don't feel like we can play. So I always encourage folks when I'm talking about a spacious life to start with writing out a delight list, and that can be sometimes a way to tap into what does it look like to play? How do I actually practice this? And you can think of it as a little, as a spiritual discipline. Um, there's the spiritual, just a little play and you can work at it just like you might check off your Bible readings, it's important.
Speaker 2 00:30:18 Um, but you know, it really helps us to remember, you know, if creation itself is God's active play, right. And, you know, and if Jesus live in this context of thick Jewish community, that they were festivals that were timed with the new moon, so that there would be more light or more feasting, more play, you know, more celebrations. Um, it's important that we don't make our faith and our lives. So Samba that, you know, and so serious, um, that we're not really incorporating all of who God has made us to be. So I would encourage you. And yeah, I like your listeners, like start with the delight list. What, what things bring you to light and how can you put that in your calendar? Um, maybe even go back to childhood, what are the things that really sparked the light in play for you as a kid?
Speaker 1 00:31:11 So how does doing, I appreciate that. And how does doing that help us in that tension of limits and the spacious life?
Speaker 2 00:31:26 You know, I think it's, you know, as we lean into our limits that we find that there is, there is more space, um, you know, just think about, you know, like if you have a schedule for your winter break with your children, for instance, like you, you have some limits, right. We're not just going to do anything and everything and watch TV for six hours. Right. We're going to actually, you know, maybe choose this one activity, we're going to go on a hike and everyone's going to complain about it, but like, we're just, we're going to do it. Um, but like, if you have that right, that hike, let's say as, okay, this is our communal active play. Um, you can begin to make it better, right? You can begin to help your kids find fun. You can play game as you're hiking, you can, um, tell funny jokes.
Speaker 2 00:32:18 Like there's so many ways that we can learn how to be creative when we actually have limits. One of my friends actually is a writer talked about in her, um, art class in college for one semester, they were only allowed two complimentary colors. Um, and, and everyone's like freaking out, right? Like, how am I only going to use your colors then? But the amount of creativity when they had those very strong limits was fantastic, you know? And so I think there's, um, there's something really important, you know, whether, whatever it is you're, you're playing. If you're a writer and you want to like, give yourself, I'm just gonna write junk for 15 minutes. So, you know, and you have a set limit other it's like, I'm gonna to just get on the floor and play Legos with my kids for 10 minutes, and then I can leave, but I'm going to be fully involved for those 10 minutes. You know, those are things that we can practice that begins to kind of strengthen our delight muscles that will have repercussions and then maybe other more responsible areas of our life.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 Oh, I love that so much. It made me, it made me think of, um, when my kids are like playing, we used to call it making mud pies. I don't know what, you know, w playing restaurant playing, you know, whatever, but they're outside. Right. And so it's like, oh my goodness. I had, you know, I, it makes me think back to those times when I was a kid, right, where the leaves are, this and the menu is such and such. And, you know, they stirred everything up. But, but you know, it's not with real in edible ingredients. Right. It's just, like you said, it's the, it's the things that are available to them and how they, um, and how they interact with those. That's, that's so beautiful. Um, you have, uh, a chapter of your book that talks about cleaning toilets and, you know, this kind of goes back to community.
Speaker 1 00:34:20 I mean, it's all intertwined, right? It's like, it was this beautiful, like kind of cyclical, this beautiful, like spiral. When I was, when I was reading this about how all these things are connected. Um, but I think back to when, you know, I just said, we have, we have four kids and one of my third one was born. So when my girls were born, we lived in a different state and we actually moved here three weeks after. Um, but then when my third was born, we, you know, we we'd been here for a couple of years and I was just starting to really feel like I had some community. And, um, I did not want anyone to serve me when he was born. So no male meal train, no, you know, whatever. I didn't want that because I just knew that I couldn't reciprocate in those moments.
Speaker 1 00:35:11 And I really felt like I needed to, because I was not embracing my limits. Right. Three kids under the age of three, and one of them was an infant. And, you know, um, and at one point I got pneumonia and, um, I had this baby that he was probably six or eight weeks old at the time. And then we had toddlers, we had two, two year olds and I had to go get a chest. X-ray right. And I'm trying to figure out, how am I going to do this? I'm nursing, you know, bring your nursing baby. Do you get chest x-ray, you know, trying to figure this out. Anyway, um, one of my friends said, had called to check on me and she had let one of her other friends know what was happening. And I wasn't as close to this other woman. And she texted me and she said, look, you know, I just heard from our friend, I am dropping soup off at your house. It's on the porch. It's frozen. You can wander out whenever you feel like it, your hairs doesn't have to be brushed. I'm just, it was, she didn't give me a choice. Right. She was like, I'm leaving soup for you. You have pneumonia in three kids by, you know, and all of these years later, a son is almost 10 and it was one of the sweetest times I can recall. Right. Um, where had I, she, she didn't give me a choice, but to lean into my limits.
Speaker 2 00:36:38 Right.
Speaker 1 00:36:39 I didn't want to accept it. I still thought I could do it all. Nice, lovely at that stage. Now I'm older and know way better than that. Right. Um, but you know, someone coming and you have a similar story, um, in your book that our leaning into our limits helps this community to even to grow even deeper.
Speaker 2 00:37:06 Yeah. So the star you're talking about with, I had a friend from church who was like, I'm gonna come over and clean your toilet. And this was like, as we were in the NICU with my fourth child and I, you know, yeah. At that point I was like, yes, please. Thank you. You know, even though like one of my kids potty training, I was like, well, if you're, if you're laying it all on the line, I will happily receive. And, um, you know, I think there's, there's many things that bring us to the end of our rope, you know, to acknowledge our limits. Um, it might be parenting, it might be job. It might be your health. Like there's, there's many ways that God uses to bring us to the end of our capacity. Um, and that, that those are actually invitations for us to be the church, like for us to care for one another, to be orthopedic, good neighbors, um, to actually look different than, you know, the only way I have a relationship with someone is for what they can do for me or what I can do for them.
Speaker 2 00:38:08 And so we're just like mutually using each other and feeling good about ourselves. Um, they're ultimately, self-referential, you know, real relationships really only happened, you know, in conflict and desperation, you know, through our limits, um, that as we journey through those sorts of experiences together, will we actually be close? Um, and you know, we have, you think of everybody wants, like, love the idea of vulnerability, but they don't actually want to do it. Um, you know, we don't want to expose our own vulnerability. We liked the idea of maybe this kind of fo vulnerability. Um, but it's really our limits show us to be vulnerable and it's just to be fragile and wounded. Um, and, and so like, we've been talking about with church hurt, like loving and wounding and vulnerability go hand in hand with real relationships. Um, and it's really only as we can hide our identity and do this, that we'll be able to like walk through all that pain and, you know, maybe embarrassment over the fate of your house or, you know, whatever it is. There's little, little versions of, you know, bigger, deeper versions. Um, but they help us have a communal purpose too, as well. And not simply about what I can get out of, you know, what I can ring out of my life. Um, that makes me feel good about myself.
Speaker 1 00:39:36 So Ashley, I thought I was going to be able to stop and not ask you about the chapter on dying, but I just can't. I need you to, to talk about it. Um, because again, one of the, why, why a chapter on dying was unexpected for me in a book on limits. I don't know. It, it actually is perfectly aligned with, um, the message, but, but can you talk to us about the art of dying?
Speaker 2 00:40:13 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the book walks through Jesus's life, um, and the limit that he has, um, in kind of the, the week leading up to his crucifixion, you know, kind of informs our own conversations. We think about, gosh, yeah, we're going to die, really uplifting, you know, good new year conversation, but, you know, I think what is so beautiful, you know, as I was meditating on the story of Jesus in the garden of guests than money is, you know, it's just really seeing the humanity of Christ in those very alone moments. Um, you know, that he wanted his friends to stay up and praying. They wouldn't like, can you imagine that the trail, um, and then, you know, choosing to go to the cross, choosing to be silent and, you know, amidst his accusers and then finally losing the face of his father and, you know, Jesus welcomes the know of God when he asks, you know, will this cup pass from me so that we can always have God's.
Speaker 2 00:41:28 Yes. And I just think that's such a beautiful picture to remind us when we feel alone. And when we feel, you know, it's either the death of dreams or like the ultimate death that we're considering. And looking forward to that we have a God who will always be with us. He will never leave us. Um, and so, you know, I've, I've been blessed or received some really great stories from people who've really who are dying or have, you know, a diagnosis, um, that really resonated with this chapter particularly. And it's just, it's a gift to be able to hold some of those stories. Um, but yeah, I think it's death is inevitable and we will all die and, you know, what do we want our, that process to look like? You know, um, will our rhythms in our dying days look like Jesus's where he is.
Speaker 2 00:42:39 Yeah. He's wrestling with God, the father and he, and he is feeling his deep alone. This he's not shying away from his fear or anguish. Um, but he is also accepting God's well, and I think it's like, as we experienced these little small deaths to self throughout our lives, that we will be able to take courage in our final base, uh, in the same way that Jesus did. And to know that because of what his own death, we are never really separate from God, we can take a little bit of courage in that the, you know, the, I believe in, and also help my unbelief sort of foster.
Speaker 1 00:43:23 Yeah. Um, actually, here's the thing I have tried to fight the temptation to just ask you to go through this book chapter by chapter with us, because, um, it, it was just such a gift, um, to read it and, um, and to meditate on this message of, of limits when, um, we are, our fourth son is adopted and when we were praying for him to come home, uh, soulmate teen was my, was my go-to. And so to see this in the, in the beginning, this first that you picked, it was one of the ones, it was almost one of the only ones I can remember by heart from that chapter, but it says he brought me out into a spacious place. He rescued me because he delighted in me. Um, and so I'm going to ask you, as we finish up, since we didn't get to go through chapter by chapter, I encourage everyone to get a copy of the book. Um, what was something that I, that I didn't ask, or is there something that's, you know, burning in you or something that you would just want if, you know, if people take away something that they can meditate on as we leave? Um, what would that be?
Speaker 2 00:44:49 Hmm. You know, I think, um, I think we can start to be really just curious about our limits. Um, I think most of the time our posture is to fight or to control or to ignore our limits. And so just yeah, to remind our listeners, um, you know, that really your limits when you lean into them are, are good, that they're invitations and that God desires actually meet you in them, but you can have a sense of peace and contentment. Um, you know, like what Paul talks about, like he's still his, um, his soul, like a weaned child or the Psalmus does rather. And Paul talks about, you know, I've learned the secret of being content and water plenty. And I think so much of how we go about the Christian life is, is still following this kind of endless escalator of achievement. Um, and it doesn't mean that we don't do anything or we don't work hard.
Speaker 2 00:45:48 Um, but just to remind us that we have all experienced our limits, like COVID-19 right last two years, we see our limits much more freshly than we, when we've done. We did maybe two years ago. And, um, that may be, I'm not saying COVID is good, but that maybe still there's an invitation in there, um, to, to think through what really matters and how you want to, you know, how you want your life to look, um, several decades from now. And that dare can actually be something good that comes out of great evil and great hardship. Um, and, and I think we, we just don't have often thick enough faith, um, to begin to, to live, to like live that out experientially, um, in our bones. And so I hope that baseless life is one way that we'll begin to yeah. Ask better questions to be curious about our limits and ask God to meet us and them. Yeah. Thanks.
Speaker 1 00:46:53 Thank you so much. So again, this is a spacious life trading hustle and hurry for the goodness of limits by Ashley Hales. And I will link that in the notes, Ashley, where can we find and connect with you on the internet and on social media?
Speaker 2 00:47:10 Yes. So I'm usually on Twitter or Instagram at AA hail my first two initials. Um, and my website is AA hails.com. And you can find out about my podcast finding wholly podcasts, uh, there as well. And I have a few fun things in the shop that are kind of nice companion to the book as well.
Speaker 1 00:47:33 Awesome. Well, I will link all of that in the notes so that everything that Ashley just said is a click away for, um, for anyone who wants to connect with her. And I encourage you to do that. Um, it's an amazing book and, um, and who doesn't want another podcast to subscribe to. I loved his going to my library and just randomly picking something, right. Like, let's see what they're talking about today. So yeah. So I encourage you to find a finding holy podcast as well. Thank you so much, Ashley, for coming on today. You
Speaker 2 00:48:06 Thank you for your good questions and engaging well with the book. It's been such a pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:48:12 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
