Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hi everybody. I'm with Sandra Marie van obstacle and Sandra, I forgot to ask you, is Chicago land, like in the middle of a blizzard right now? Did I hear there's a big storm or am I completely off on my morning radio?
Speaker 2 00:00:54 We are okay right now, but we just had a huge kind of influx of snow, but actually wasn't as bad as we thought it was going to be. Well, when we hear blizzard, it's like we're stuck in the house. So all of our neighbors, we see them outside walk into the grocery store. I'm like, what do you guys do? And they're like a storm is coming. It wasn't that bad. Actually we shoveled it. It ruins. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:01:14 Oh, good, good, good. I'm so glad. Cause we're in Houston and we just had this for this cold front come in, you know, and my husband was laughing as he walked out the door today and I'm like, it's going to be 68. And he's like, well, we had two days of winter, you know, we had, we had one day where it was like 36 and my kids were all like, is it going to snow? I'm like doubtful. It's probably just going to be cold and windy and then we'll move on. But anyway, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for, um, thank you for joining me on this cool January day. We're going to talk about, um, your newest book 40 days on being an eight. And I think I'll just say what we talked about prerecording. This is not just a conversation or a book for people who classify themselves as Enneagram aids. I don't. Um, and this book was so meaningful to me. It's a devotional that Sandra has written. Um, and really what I resonated most with was your call to recognize God's call to justice. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 00:02:26 Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you were able to, even in our, our conversation before we started recording, just to be able to really enter into the wrestling that I was doing, uh, within my own faith and you know, in my own relationship with God, I think, um, yeah, the book is, you know, when InterVarsity press asked me to, to contribute to the series, I of course was like, no, absolutely not. Um, because I was trained under a spiritual director who taught me that the Enneagram is a, it's a sacred tool, uh, for spiritual formation and that it was really an invitation from Jesus to consider where do I most need the presence of Christ in my life? Um, as I come to be, you know, become my true self, my truest self. And so, um, I was taught not to tell anyone your Enneagram number and not to ask because it was really not for public consumption.
Speaker 2 00:03:19 It was for your own personal, you know, kind of, um, journey in becoming more like Christ for the sake of others. And so when they asked me to write a book, um, a devotional and they showed me that the covers would have these big old numbers on the front of them, I was like, oh, I don't know. Um, if I want to do that. But, um, then again, for those of you that are listening and you're familiar with the Enneagram, if, if you have encountered it Enneagram eight, you probably know they're an eight. That's not usually a surprise. It's not the secret one. Um, especially if you have a seven wing because we become like the challenger with the most amount of energy in the room. So, um, so yeah, I said yes, because I honestly, I, I, I hadn't written a devotional yet. I've written many books, prayers, um, Bible studies, but I had never written a devotional like this.
Speaker 2 00:04:13 And I wanted an opportunity to invite people into a, a journey with me with God. And I think that most of our devotionals that are out there are written not from the perspective of, you know, Latina, um, Enneagram aids who are living in urban neighborhoods. I think most of them are written from suburban perspectives, upper middle-class perspectives, um, and really from white perspectives. And so I wanted the opportunity to write a devotional that would locate, um, that would come from my location and, and, and bring people into the journey. So that's why I said yes, primarily,
Speaker 1 00:04:54 Well, I love it. And you named it cause I'm like, if you, if you have met someone who's an eight you're right. It's not a surprise. Usually you're like, oh yeah, got that. I mean, I'm married to an eight and I told you before we started recording, we just kind of named it that within the last few years. But anytime I encounter any like writings or anything, like on aids, it's like, I can see my husband's face as I'm reading it. And I'm like, yes, this is no, this is no surprise one I want to get to before the end of this conversation that I actually wrote his name in the margin is the Bobcat day. So, so let's circle back around, uh, around to that in a moment. But, um, but really when I was reading this and knowing a little bit about your background and I, I follow you on social media and, um, you know, we've just come off of Christmas.
Speaker 1 00:05:45 And so I think you were one of the first people I saw who, who posted the Mary freaking new, uh, song Instagram. I mean, I'm right about that, right? You were, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, and I'm like, and there she is. Um, but this is, this is very much like, yes, this is just eights. Often say what needs, what needs to be said and what sometimes other people won't say, but I really related to this probably more in your, in the second part of why you said yes, which is your location. Um, because I have read dozens and dozens of devotionals right over the years that I've, you know, been trying to practice doing this every day. Um, and I don't always have an emotional along with my Bible reading, but often I do. And I think I can tell you as a Latino woman, this, I think this may be the first devotional I've ever read written from a Latino woman's perspective, which is wild.
Speaker 2 00:06:48 Yes. I mean, and you know, interestingly, my, a woman at my church just wrote in fantastic devotionals. I'll just put a plug in here for her. Um, and she, and I'll tell you the title one second, but she, she, she sends us these text messages every day, like these really long text messages of the scripture and the thought, like kind of a devotional thought on the scripture. And, um, and, uh, and she would send these every day. And I, and I asked her one day, I was like, why don't you just write a book? You know, like this is literally a book. And she's like, well, I have like 365 of them from this year alone. Cause it was kind of coming to the end of year. I was like, well, why don't you just pick 40? You don't put them in a book and we can like, you know, kind of pack it.
Speaker 2 00:07:31 Did we started a journey together, which I then, you know, had to step away from, but she ended up publishing her book this year. She self published, but I thought it was so great because, um, you know, it was this really brilliant, beautiful, creative way of engaging God that I had not, um, kind of seen before. And it's because she's a mom in our community who has kind of had a very untraditional, um, way of getting trained to be working in our public schools. She has, um, children with special needs and who are adult now. And she has all this wealth of knowledge and journey with Jesus that honestly people like her don't typically end up on our shelves. Um, and yet they're so brilliant. And so I, I think in some aspects, part of being an author for me, um, is related to just being able to show people that it can be done. Like you can write a book. I mean, I wrote many books and I'm like not a genius, so you could write a book. I think it's, it's that experience of, um, yeah. So anyway, I hope helps people and I hope that people understand that, you know, it's, it, it really is. I think it's a huge deal actually. Like, I don't know if you heard yourself say it's the first time I read a devotional or utilize a devotional that's written from my own cultural space. That's huge.
Speaker 1 00:09:10 I'm 40. Right. And I've been, I've been walking with the Lord intensely for 20 years, you know, really 30 and yeah, it's exactly, as you said, like most of the devotionals that are, um, widely available, right. The ones that are popular, the ones that are, um, you know, that everybody's talking about, most of them are written from a white person's perspective, many of them from, from men. Um, and you know, I would say as I was a stay-at-home mom in that space for about seven years, you know? And so in that case, there's lots of, you know, women who are writing, but again, most of them are kind of coming from this own space of this kind of white evangelical stay-at-home mom, kids, you know, perspective,
Speaker 2 00:09:56 Which is a great, I mean, it's not, there's nothing wrong with that person. It's just not the only one. And before I forget the name of her book is called outstretched faith and her name is Carmen and Rodriguez. So you can
[email protected]. I think I'll start to fade Carmen and Rodriguez. So, um, yeah, it's, it's not a bad, it's not, again, it's not that it's a bad space to write from, but it's not our typical journey. So I, I know a lot of times I've had, um, just in my own faith journey of my own walk with God, it's like, listen, um, not everybody has the choices that you all have in these books. Not everybody has the experiences you all have in these books. And what I find is that what we think is a totally normal experience is like an entire brand for someone else.
Speaker 2 00:10:39 Like, for example, I'm a, I was, I'm a foster mom and I'm an adoptive mom. I don't have an entire brand around being an adoptive mom, which it's fine if other people want to do it. I just think that's normal life. You know, like I live in the city, I, I, um, um, returned to a community similar to the one I grew up in that is this disinvested financially and, um, and marginalized economically and politically. But I don't like only write about that topic. I'm really a theologian. I'm writing about worship. I'm writing about preaching, I'm writing about practices and liturgy and you know how to change a community. But, um, it's not, to me, those are not like topics I write about. They're just the lifestyle that I live. And so if we had books, devotionals songs, whatever it is, blogs written by people in all these different spaces and locations, I think our understanding of what it means to live out our faith would be different.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 So that's why I said yes to this book. That's why I wrote a, not for primarily like, this is a book for all Enneagram eights, but this is a book written by an Enneagram eight who happens to be, um, in my experience as a Latina, um, with my particular passions for justice and seeing the church actually act like church. Um, and yeah, totally like what you said earlier about like Enneagram aids tend to say what everybody wants to say, but doesn't really have the guts to say, you know, like that's really what's happening. It happens every time in Instagram, but I also think that Enneagram aids have Enneagram eights, not only say what others want to say, they also do what others want to do. And I think that's really, really important, um, to recognize because Enneagram eights, aren't typically about the same, they're typically about the doing because so much of our faith is embodied.
Speaker 2 00:12:25 It's like a thing that we live in our physical selves. And so we may say something about how the world should be, but it's typically because we're practicing that thing in our local experience. So we're going to say, Hey, worship should look like this, but we're probably practicing that in some way in our, in our families, on our block and in our cities. Um, and I think that's, what's really, really scary. And that's actually why I, I wondered after I wrote the book, if I could take some of it back. Cause I wrote, I think it's very lonely. It's very lonely all, um, to be, to put out the words that, you know, people are feeling and saying and sensing, but you're like out there by yourself and then you're doing the things people want to probably do, but they don't, they're maybe afraid of the consequences.
Speaker 2 00:13:20 And so, um, you're, you're literally out there by yourself, wondering if you'll be disowned by whatever, you know, party doesn't or group doesn't feel like you're on board with them 100%. So, um, it's a very, very lonely journey. And so I think for anyone who has a passionate life for doing things, um, that may be challenging to the systems and structures that exist because you're a creative because you're an activist because you're a Christian and you know that it's not how it should be. If you're that type of person, I feel like, um, we need help in community to get there together. So
Speaker 1 00:13:59 Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, you told a story in the book where you were kind of disowned almost from a community after you spoke up. Um, but I, I, and I will invite you to tell that story, but you could also tell another one of, of, of something where it's a lonely place, because I want, wanna, I want to get more of that out of you because, you know, as we both said, you, you don't just say the things you say, the things out of your experience, probably because you're already doing the thing, um, or you're not afraid to do the thing, or you're happy to do the thing when a lot of people are we're, I will say we, we're afraid. We're afraid of social consequence. Maybe we're afraid of, um, of what, what if it doesn't turn out or, you know, I dunno we could list probably a hundred things and the fears may not actually be as important as the fact that the fears hold us back from doing the thing a lot of times. Um, so I'll invite you to tell that story, but I would invite you to tell any story of any situation where you have felt lonely in that place of, of saying or speaking or doing things that you knew were the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 00:15:24 Yeah. Well, first of all, I think each of us has a, in a way in which we were designed by our creator to be, and whether it's, you know, nine Enneagram types or 16 Myers-Briggs temperaments or where we may like lean towards one of those ways of interacting with the world. Um, but we also have our own experiences. We have our own passions, our spiritual given there's so many things that go into who we are as individuals, um, and as collective as communities as well. But for me, I feel like, um, who I am. It's not that I'm not afraid it's that I'm actually designed and wired to notice what's not right. I'm designed and wired to see how power is being distributed utilized. I mean, that's how the eight is designed and wired. Like you notice where power is. You notice how power is being used.
Speaker 2 00:16:18 You have your eye on those who are the least, the least empower the most disenfranchised. Um, and it's almost like it's not that it's a choice. It is a, a guttural embodied instinct to act upon those who are abusing their power to harm the community. And so I think that's what it's functioning out of. And my husband's an Enneagram one and they're brilliant because they're wired by making sure that everything is right and as it should be in the world, you know, orderly and you know, the best thing in the whole wide world is like Christmas morning when all the packages are beautifully wrapped under the tree and the lights are glimmering through and the hot chocolate is smelled in the house, you know, that's kind of the perfection, you know, their, their, their requests. And so each of us has this and mine just happens to be that I'm like, I could see this coming.
Speaker 2 00:17:13 This is going to be bad. Um, I don't like the way that power is being used. I don't like the way that thing is being formed. Um, so as an example, before I get too lonely, as an example, I wrote a book called the next worship. Um, and it's about, uh, it's not about like diverse churches and how to do diverse worship. It's actually about how we all, as Christians are a part of a global church and we all therefore ought to practice cross-cultural worship as a way of being in solidarity and mutuality with this global church, I wrote it six years ago and it's, it's sold this year than it did in its previous ones, which is odd for a book. Honestly, you have one year to sell a book that it's done. The reason is because I think the concept was about five to 10 years ahead.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 And only after all of the racial uprisings we had this summer, did people begin to ask, well, what does my church do now? Well, what do I do with my kids now? How do I form, you know, that, that those kinds of questions around worship. So, um, in some senses, it's not that it's always negative. It's that you have an idea and you put it out there. I think it's what's happening with chasing justice, Oregon. The nonprofit that I started this year with, with mark ready, it's really supposed to be a movement for led by people of color to help us understand what it would look like to live a lifestyle of faith and justice, but it is a, it is a inter-ethnic BiPAP led. So the idea that we are seeking a collective liberation as Latin X, African-American, Asian American, you know, native American, the fact that we're doing that collectively, I don't know that people have a category like that yet.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 And so, um, I'm trying to work in partnership with all these other fantastic organizations that exist, but what I'm imagining, I don't think I'm, I'm not quite sure if, if it's like maybe five years from now, it'll sell better than it does right now. You know? So I think part of the loneliness is not negative reaction. It's almost like, can you see what I can see? No, I can't see it. Can you see what's coming? There's a huge wave coming guys. Can you see it? No, I can see it. I swear, let's build an arc, you know, let's build an arc and everyone gets inside of, and we could all like survive this thing that's coming. We don't see what's coming Sandra and then 2020, right. And then 2021. And I'm like, y'all have to know that we saw that coming the elections of 2016, but I mean, who surprised none of us, you know? Um, and so I think that's what there were, the loneliness comes. It comes in like people want to sell like a positive encouraging Christian faith experience. And I'm like, I'm not saying everything is bad, but we have to stay alert because that's what the scriptures call us to do. Um, because of all kinds of greed and idolatry. And so I think a prophetic voice has never, I mean, I don't know a prophet who was like, yay, thanks for my job.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 So it's lonely. I want to say that as, as, as lonely. And then, um, the story I want to tell is actually about this. You can read that one of the book, the one she's talking about, the story I want to tell is actually about this week, because this week, um, in, in our world, as we start the year, um, we had a worship movement that decided that wouldn't be a great idea to put together tens of thousands of people in a room, unmasked, singing and spitting at each other because that's what we need to do in Jesus' name. And so I've spent the last two as a worship leader as a coach to worship leader as, as a theologian on the topic of worship as an author on books of worship. And I'm just like, this is not worship y'all. I mean, I love conferences and I think we should have them.
Speaker 2 00:20:59 I think there's a place for them. And there's a place for celebration and gathering, but in the middle of a global pandemic, when our rates are rising, it's not a time to say what Jesus needs right now is a bunch of people in a room together spitting on each other in Jesus' name so that we can all fly out of the city, into all the other cities across our country and bring more of disease to those who are disenfranchised and marginalized, who those who don't have that have as much access to healthcare and to tax our healthcare system and our education system. So I'm like, so I spoke out about it, of course. And you know, then it's like, well, if I wanted to make a name for myself and like the Christian industrial complex, that would never happen now because I spoke out against all the power brokers.
Speaker 2 00:21:40 Um, and so after I spoke out about it, um, I just, I turned my husband. I was like, I don't really care. Anyway. It's not like they're going to, no, one's going to invite me unless they want me to tell the truth. And this is, this is not worship. This is not at all. Like from Genesis to revelation, this is not the picture of worship that Jesus or God is calling us to it's to love those who are disenfranchised and marginalized. And this action, this gathering does not love. So that would be an example of unsure thing waves that are coming at people that will talk behind my back. And I'm fine with that.
Speaker 1 00:22:17 When you say that, I, I don't have it an answer to this question. I'm just, I'm just like really curious what your, what your perspective is, and, and to have a conversation on this, because when you talk about power and you can see who has power and who doesn't have power, and we're talking about that in terms of, you know, political capital and, you know, money and, um, position and all of these things. And it's, it's an easier conversation to have when we're talking about it in the secular space. And now here I am. If, if I'm going to get, if I'm going to get in trouble, then I'm just going to go ahead and get in trouble with you, Sandra, because, uh, we're, I'm going to, I'm going to utilize your I'm gonna utilize your achiness, um, and say, but when you were talking about that conference and you said, and you said, yeah, but all the power brokers were there.
Speaker 1 00:23:17 Can we, can we talk about power in the church and that way, can we talk about the evangelical industrial complex? Like, and it's not necessarily on the subject of your book, but I would just love to hear kind of what you are seeing, um, along, you know, along those lines when you're talking about, um, you know, seeing things, um, you know, in the prophetic sense, but even just seeing things in the, in just the fact that sometimes I say some people are definitely have prophetic giftings, and sometimes they're just more perceptive than the rest of us. Right. And sometimes it's kind of a combination of both. So what are you observing and what are you kind of seeing as far as that? I mean, if you're, if you're up to,
Speaker 2 00:24:02 I mean, part of it, I think what I, what I want to see is I want to see God's people acting like God's people. I just think it's so beautiful. Like anytime you see it, it's amazing. Like when I am, you know, working with, um, immigrant churches or smaller churches in our city, when I'm, you know, before, when we could fly around, but I was working with my brothers and sisters in Cape town, South Africa and Uganda. And I'm seeing these glimpses of like what I'm seeing my, my, my own alumni from what I used to be a campus minister, like devoting their lives to the pursuit of beauty and justice and goodness and wholeness. When I, when I see, um, people make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and live off of 50,000, they could give the rest away and invest it. When I see economic redistribution, when I see a care and concern for those who are on the margins, uh, parents that have become good foster parents and have spoken into the foster care system and have adopted well and have spoken and allowed for their lives to be shaped by adoptees.
Speaker 2 00:25:04 For example, when I see all of that, I'm like, this is God's kingdom. This is the way it should be. When I see, um, uh, white men and women who have platform and power utilizing that platform and power to elevate voices of color who have different perspectives and different things to say, like my friend, Carmen. Um, well, when I see that, I'm like, yes, that's what, that's what the kingdom looks like. Um, it looks like the things that Jesus set in, in the parables, the kingdom is like yeast. The kingdom is like, um, a light on the hill. The kingdom is like all these things. So I think that's what I want to see. Um, instead what I see as empire, I just see, I see, uh, a religious system in our country that seeks to, to gain economic and political power that does not center those, that Jesus centered, the orphan, the foreigner, the widow, those who are economically socially, um, and, and racially disenfranchised.
Speaker 2 00:26:10 Um, I don't see those people being centered. I see them being talked about as problems or, you know, you could use all the words even this week. As I posted that thing about the worship gathering, I got like all these really nasty come. I didn't listen. I didn't, I don't read the comments, but I'm like, did you just say welfare queen on my, did you just put, I mean, what, what is this like, I don't even know. Who are you in the name of Jesus? Um, I see people a text to empire. That's what I see. I see, um, systems of Christianity that about gaining followers and wealth and branding. And I see, um, leaders, particularly white male leaders who have gone even after all that has been exposed about who they are. They continue to be given places of power. Um, I see a church that, um, Purdue, a white church that elected, um, and continues to elect people that say derogatory, you know, racist, sexist things about not only people in our own country, but around the world. Um, none of it smells like Christ. And so I read the Bible. I'm like, are the gospel should be that our faith should be the aroma of Christ, the fragrance of Christ. And instead, what I see is what Amos saw your worship is a stench to me.
Speaker 2 00:27:33 Um, now in that I think there are remnant, there's a remnant and there's always going to be a remnant. The scripture calls says, so I'm like, I'm looking at Amos, I'm looking at Jeremiah, I'm looking at Jesus, I'm looking at acts. And I'm looking at the solves. I'm like, there is a hope somewhere out there. Um, and I'm looking at an entire emerging generation. That's like, we want to be about the things of Jesus. And we just do not want to be in the church. And, um, I can see why, because our generation of parents that raise them are like, we're really trying to hang out to Jesus here, but we really do not want to be in the church. So frankly, many of us, um, are not me in particular, many folks in my generation are just, they're not in church. And so their kids aren't in church.
Speaker 2 00:28:17 And so people aren't being formed because they're afraid to, to be formed inappropriately in the church. So that's what I see. But I see, um, movements of particularly people of color that are like, Hey, let's try something else. Okay. If the white progressives and the white conservatives don't have a way forward and, you know, trying to like plead and beg to be at their tables is not worth. What if we try something different and actually just set our own tables? What if we start our own podcast? What if we do our own things? And so I see in the last five years, especially a real strong, um, you know, a real strong movement coming from faith leaders of color, who take the Bible seriously, who take faith seriously and who take the call to, um, to presence and to proximity and to justice and compassion, uh, to heart. And so they're trying new things. And my hope is that, um, alongside of what's happening in the global church, we will find any way forward. That's what I see,
Speaker 1 00:29:24 Man. Thank you. Thank you very much. Cause when, when you start talking about the profits, that was one thing that I, I noticed I didn't, I didn't jot down in my notes today, but, um, you, uh, relate to Jeremiah quite a bit in this devotional. And I didn't think about it beforehand. So I don't have the, I don't have the title of the book at the tip of my tongue, but there was a book I read for school last term where, um, the authors, when they speak of Jeremiah, they speak of him helping his community to be a community that learns together how to move forward. Um, that Jeremiah can see things that they can't see as a community. And they, and he's telling them of things that they're not expecting to hear. Um, and that he's trying to help them to learn as a community, how to move forward in the place where they are, where they're living, which is not where they want to be living.
Speaker 1 00:30:35 Right. That's not, that's Jeremiah is not giving them the answers that they ever, that they want. Right. But he's seeing it. And he's saying we were here. And so we've got to move forward somewhere for here. Um, and so I appreciate that because I feel like that's part of what you're doing and the organizations that you're involved with are trying to help us as a community to learn how do we move forward from here? We're, we're not actually like many of us actually don't really want to be a part of this empire that you speak of. Um, but a lot of people don't know any different. Um, and so how do we move forward from here?
Speaker 2 00:31:16 Yeah. I think we move forward first by acknowledging that we, where it has shaped us and we're complicit in it. I think that's the first way for it. It just is. Because even with that, you know, if that happened this week, I'm like, the problem is that we're buying all this music. We are purchasing this music and putting money in their pockets. We're utilizing the music on a Sunday morning, which puts more money in their pockets. So we can't say with our mouth like, oh, this doesn't, you know, this is not right. And then like with our dollars. So I said, it's kind of like Amazon and Walmart. It's like the thing we know we shouldn't do that. We just can't help, but go back to, you know, like, um, it, it is what it is. So until you say to yourself, I'm just stepping foot into another Walmart again, because they oppressed global workers, or I'm not sending stepping foot into, I'm not utilizing Amazon anymore because they don't treat their workers well, like, until you're willing to do that, like I'm not willing to send a man to the moon until you put your foot down and do that with, with, you know, what we're doing in the church.
Speaker 2 00:32:12 We're continuing to be complicit in. So I don't know a way out, but to say our first place is to say, I have been shaped by this. I have raised this air and I have to go through a detox, which I'm going through right now, by the way, I'm doing spinach and apple, um, new year's detox. So I think we needed to detox. Um, and you could call that deconstruction. You can call that decolonizing. You can call that reformation, whatever you want to call it. Um, we have to, that's where we, we start by saying, what, what am I practicing that has been, um, that is not correct. And I don't think that means we throw everything out. Like I was taught inductive Bible study by the whitest white people in the whole wide world. And I love inductive Bible study. And it's a form of Bible study.
Speaker 2 00:32:53 It's amazing. It's not the only form of Bible study, but I'm not going to throw that out just because it comes from a certain location. I'm going to say what from it was helpful and what can I add? Um, and so I think that is actually the, the journey of Jeremiah. Um, the call that was given to Jeremiah was to uproot and to tear down right, uh, to overthrow and to build. And so there's a process that we go through where we have to like take our time and we have to uproot some things and pull out the weeds and get rid of the trash and take down some walls. But we're not just going to like take a, you know, a big bulldozer wrecking ball to the church and just leave a pile of trash there and tell people, tell the next generation, okay, good luck.
Speaker 2 00:33:35 I mean, we had formation, we had, you know, Sunday school, we had different things that we did that formed us. I have, I have a love for the global church because of mission strips. That's why I have a love for, are they amazing? No. Do they have problems? Yes. Should we go on them? I don't know. You know, that's the question out there, but, but they shaped me. That's what I know that I would not have known what, what God is doing around the world without watching the brilliance and the innovation of the global church. And so I'm deeply, deeply, deeply shaped by that. Um, and so I think that's the process we go through as taking it apart. But for me, like, I most relate to Jeremiah because the scriptures, you know, the people, um, the scriptures show him as a people call him the weeping prophet.
Speaker 2 00:34:26 And so I just feel like that's me. Like, I just, I feel like that's the, even though it may sound angry to people and I talk about this a lot in the, in the devotional, I think I ma I'm trying to get, give people an inside, look at like our journey as aids. It's not anger for the sake of anger, it's lament and it's frustration because of what could be. And the fact that it isn't, and it's not rocket science, you know, it's like, it's not that hard. Um, it just requires some emptying that we don't want to do. It requires some repentance that we apparently, as Christians are afraid of. Um, it requires change that actually would lead to liberation and healing and freedom, but we don't, we don't long for it. And so, um, in the end of the story, you know, Jeremiah like cries his little heart out and says all his things and in the end he gets left behind, you know?
Speaker 2 00:35:24 So I don't know, it's not like the best prophet to, um, to identify with, but I mean, I don't know. Do you want to be beheaded like John, the Baptist? Do you want me, like, who do you want to be like? And so for me, I can only be who God has created and crafted me to be. And that is expressed in this book. Um, and whether or not you're at Enneagram eight, I think if you have a desire to see the church be different, we can log together. Like we can dream together and we can work together, but it isn't to just bring a wrecking ball to what has been done. It's to maybe apply some nuance and to surgically remove what needs to be removed
Speaker 1 00:36:18 It's as you said, none of their profits were like, yay, thanks for my job. Um, you know, when you, when you start naming them, it gets real, real fast. Um, and I know you've said wrecking ball a couple of times, and this may be a good place if you, if you can, to share a little bit of that, uh, story of when you redid your,
Speaker 2 00:36:42 My gosh, you guys okay. Is that, I don't know if anybody listening has ever had the experience of doing construction on your home or, um, or yeah, on your property, but we, so we, I am, I own a home and, um, we're landlords, we have a three unit and so our backyard was so bad. And so we had to like plant new grass and we realized that underneath all the grass in our backyard was actually concrete. So there was this concrete slab I live in the city. So this is a concrete slab that was in our backyard. And so, um, we, they, you know, the, the, the crew came to like, basically pull up what was in the backyard that had to be removed in order for there to be a possibility that real grass could grow like healthy grass could grow. Um, and I have two small, so I wasn't about to have my kids play outside and falling down in like, what looked like grass, but really was concrete underneath.
Speaker 2 00:37:32 Um, and so they came and they bought probably one of those like massive, like dumpster things. And they started pulling out, you know, all of the concrete that was underneath the grass. And you could see this, like Bobcat was like pulling and pulling. And the people sitting on the Bobcat were like sweating. I mean, they were sweating, they were shaking and they weren't even like doing it manually. They were using, uh, you know, obviously a machine. Um, and they pulled and they rolled it. And for three days, like three full days, they pulled up all this concrete, a massive dumpster, like large dumpster full of concrete. I don't know where it came from. And then like the next day they came, they poured a bunch of dirt into, it, took them like an hour. They rolled the grass out, took like less than an hour.
Speaker 2 00:38:16 And then they watered and left. So for three days they pulled up concrete and sweated and like, you know, like this, I'm sure they were like, uh, physically fatigued, you know, like they were fatigued from all the, and I, when I was watching out my window and I, and I, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like me. This is the job you have given me. And I started like cry. I cry a of the people do in my backyard. I don't want to be a Bobcat. God. Like, I just do not want to be a Bobcat. But if people don't come in and uproot and take out and remove and do the heavy lifting of removing what is toxic and dangerous and, um, in order to plant what is real, then we will continue to feel like we have a grass in our backyard when it's not grass at all.
Speaker 2 00:39:12 Like it, it has the facade or the illusion of looking like it's a lawn, but it's not a lawn at all. Um, and it's dangerous. Um, and so I think for me, um, that has to do with a lot of the places that we go, I think, especially as women leaders, but definitely as, as folks of color and as women of color, that will oftentimes, we're like the first and the only, um, in a lot of the spaces that we're trying to do those, and it could be even in our own ethnic specific spaces, we could be working in an immigrant church that doesn't want change because there's generational differences, you know, for like the first and the only. And so as, as leaders, we have to decide like, am I willing to sweat? Am I willing to do this work? If this is the call that God has given me, I have plenty of friends that are in the work of justice and reconciliation and all these beautiful, beautiful things.
Speaker 2 00:40:06 And we work alongside each other, but they would never have the desire or the skill to be a Bobcat. They just wouldn't, that's not their job, but they can come in afterwards and dump the dirt and lay the grass. And they're so good at it. And they do such a good job at it. And that's what God has called them to do. So I think my prayer, most of the time is God, why did you make me this way? Why do I have to do this? Can't somebody else do this. And always, I hear the Lord say, that's why I made you, because you could do this and still like have joy. You can do this. And still like, you know, talk to someone when you get home and, you know, make lunch for your kids and do all these other things. And so I think it has little to do with what I, with like a right or wrong way of doing things.
Speaker 2 00:40:54 And it has more to do with each of us understanding how God has made us and accepting that particular, um, that particular call to do it. And so I hear the Lord saying to me regularly, that's what I made you Sandra, and I'm with you. So go, um, and there aren't very many spaces that I go to in my own community or, or, um, more broadly in, in the Christian dialogue where I don't feel like, oh my gosh, here we go again. Um, so I think our journey, I would encourage each of us, like our journey is to figure out how has God made us and how do we accept the beauty that, that is add the particular distinctiveness that, that will bring in our journey of faith of justice.
Speaker 1 00:41:48 Andrew, you have spoken so much to me personally today. Um, I'm my prayer is that the listeners would feel just as personally spoken to, but, um, in that I'm a little bit afraid that I have probably forgotten to ask you something that might speak to all of us a bit more broadly, or, um, have left something off that you really want to say. So I just want to give you the opportunity as we start to wrap up, um, to answer any questions that I didn't ask or to say the thing about the book or about justice or about the Enneagram or about faith or whatever it is that, that, um, that I didn't give you the opportunity to say, if something is left kind of burning in you.
Speaker 2 00:42:36 I mean, I would say that we are worth spending time getting to know that's what I would say. Um, I think a lot of times, particularly for communal cultures, do you come from, uh, uh, Camille culture or, um, if you come from a kind of a faith expression that's like faith is about doing, doing, doing, um, or you live in a, in a very, um, kind of high trauma area. Like for me, like there's never a downtime. There's just never a downtime in our neighborhood. There's always something going on. Um, that even though there is always work to do, and even though we should live out our faith in practical ways by doing, um, and learning, et cetera, et cetera, that, that we are worth spending the time to get to know. And I think that a tool like the Enneagram and the series, the whole series of 40 days on being whatever number you are, um, is worth spending the time doing, because the Enneagram is like a mirror and it shows you your full self and your authentic self and the self that you, that got is creating you to be, and without self-reflection.
Speaker 2 00:43:39 And without time to ask the question, how am I becoming the person that God has created me to be that we are no, we're not a good use to other people. So, um, spiritual formation reflection, all those kinds of things. It is for the sake of others, because we're becoming like Christ, we're becoming our authentic truest, um, kindest self for the sake of others. And so I would encourage you guys, um, to, to grab the 40 days on being an eight or any of them, um, and to spend some time. Um, and I know it's hard for some of us, like, I don't know, I don't do a daily devotional star. Y'all not the spiritual, um, but I, I have a 15 minute car ride that I spend in prayer by myself. Um, thinking about what happened the day before thinking about, um, what, what I want to do that day, asking myself if I was the kindest mom, I could be that morning and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 00:44:31 Um, and so whether it's a car ride, um, and you want to get an audio book, you just want to, you know, do the audio book for three minutes, um, and then just take your 15 minute commute and listen to it. I think we're worth, we are worth that. Um, and our connection with God becomes stronger as we know ourselves. Um, and so I would encourage you to do that. I also would love to invite you guys to, um, to, um, to join our mailing list for chasing justice. We have a, a year it's kind of like a beginning of the year, um, D a devotional slash reflection guide called audacity to thrive. And it's really a, could be used in a one day retreat. It could be used kind of one hour every week, and it's helping us learn to practice silence and solitude reflection contemplation, and, uh, that will move us then to action and to be our best selves as we pursue justice.
Speaker 1 00:45:30 Thank you so much, Sandra, that all of that is a word I felt, I, I know it's that because I felt myself resisting that I was like, dang it. She's right.
Speaker 2 00:45:42 Nobody hates slowing down more than an eight. So trust me when I say that I, I have y'all, I have a weekly sad practice, a weekly Sabbath, a literal 24 hour period where I don't do anything that, that ha is responsible, like responsibility. Um, I have a one month retreat day where I spend five to six hours just by myself. Um, and my journal, a Bible, like no technology, no phone. And I'm about to leave this weekend for a three-day silent retreat with my husband, which we've been doing. Um, I've been doing since before I was married. So 20 plus years, uh, twice a year, three days, silence, um, no technology, no studying, no none of that. Um, even as a foster mom, which, you know, if you're a foster parent, you know, it's hard to get care for that. Even as a parent of a young child, every single year, twice a year, we've done this and I have no regrets.
Speaker 2 00:46:37 And so that guide that I'd asked you to thrive guide is something that is actually like a practical guide that came out of this practice that, that I have. Um, and the team kind of reworked it a little bit. So, um, I want to say, like, I don't like to stop is literally the thing that the aide hates the most is stopping. I think my book starts with that word. Um, but I know I need to, because I cannot be a great, um, community member or a great disciple if I don't learn to see what's actually happening in my soul. And so activism is, is rooted in connection with God and when it's not, um, it, it becomes pretty, pretty dangerous. So I would invite you guys to consider how you're doing that, whether it's, again like a 15 minute silent rive or a once a month. I just, the daily thing is too much for me. I'm sorry. Y'all it's too much. Um, so, but the, the once a month sitting down journaling writing, um, I have this journal, that's like, it's probably 11 years old. It's only one journalist how much I write, but it's interesting because I can go back a decade and see what I was praying for and what I was frustrated about and what I was longing for. And I can read my own words and thank God for what has happened in my life since then.
Speaker 1 00:47:56 Wow. That's beautiful. Thank you so much. I just appreciate this time of you helping me sit and slow down today. Um, again, this is a part of a series, as Sandra mentioned, there are all eight are out, um, by university press. This particular one is 40 days on being an eight. And I will link this as well as the guide and chasing justice also. Um, the next worship that the, the book that is selling better now than when it, when it first came out and, um, outstretched faith, the, um, the devotional that Sandra mentioned earlier by a peer of hers at her church. So thank you so much for coming on. Oh, I do want to say, because you have been, we mentioned social media, but where can we find you on social media if we want to interact with you in that way? Yes.
Speaker 2 00:48:43 So you can find me at Sandra, have an obstacle, um, and you can also find me at chasing justice underscore. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:48:52 Um, thank you so much. Oh, I appreciate the links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
