Episode Transcript
Speaker 2 00:00:07 Welcome to that. Makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way. Every day.
Speaker 0 00:00:38 I am so happy to be here this afternoon with Amy, Julia Becker. She has written the most beautiful book called to be made well and invitation to wholeness, healing and hope welcome Amy Juliet. How are you?
Speaker 3 00:00:57 I'm doing so well. And thank you for having me. It's really great to be here.
Speaker 0 00:01:01 Oh my goodness. I'm I'm just so excited when, um, when I was checking out, checking you out online as we do these days, um, I noticed your podcast, um, which I haven't subscribed to yet, but it looks amazing. And I noticed that we've, we've actually shared a few of the same guests with
Speaker 3 00:01:19 It, does the same checking out and noticed the same thing I thought, oh, this is going to be fun. So
Speaker 0 00:01:24 I thought the same thing I thought this is great. This is so great. So your podcast is called love is stronger than fear, and you've got multiple seasons that you're actively recording. It looks like. And so, yeah, so we'll put a link to that one in, um, in the show notes, as well as a link to the book. Um, but the book is where we're going to spend our time today in the book is really where I want to start. Um, so I will say I'm actually a little thankful for my horse voice today because I could feel myself, even as we were talking before we pressed record, um, I'm a little bit on the verge of processing this book. So there may be moments where maybe thankful for my horrible voice where you can't really what's happening with me emotionally and what's. Um, and what is just this allergy symptoms.
Speaker 0 00:02:19 But, um, the reason that I say that is because this book that you've written is so, um, personal and powerful, you have weaved in your own personal experiences in your own body, um, in your family's life with two, as you call it, uh, the sandwich stories and mark can sandwich with, um, Jared and his daughter. And as we used to call her in my college Pentecostal tradition, the woman with the issue of blood, um, and these two stories are woven with your stories, um, in this book to talk about these three things, the nature of healing, the barriers that we might experience to healing and how we get to participate in our own healing. And I know that this isn't your first book where you touch on these topics, but writing a book on healing feels like even just thinking about that feels overwhelming to me. I, you did it so beautifully, but where did, where did that start for you?
Speaker 3 00:03:32 Yeah, I, you know, I didn't, thankfully I didn't realize how overwhelming it was until I was committed. I might never have done it. Um, I think for me it started really, there's a story I tell in the first chapter, um, not as an introduction really, but in the first chapter of, um, having lower back pain, so kind of a mundane, you know, woman in America situation where I had three little children and I was carrying them around and I had, you know, we had just moved and my husband had taken a big job. And so I was kind of figuring out my role as a part-time mom, but also a writer and a speaker, but no one knew me that way when we moved, it was like, oh yeah, you're the wife of Peter. Um, I'm a mother of these three kids. And so I was not associating my lower back pain with any of those other dynamics in my life.
Speaker 3 00:04:25 But I did notice that I was taking an Advil in the middle of the night, pretty much every night. This was after probably a year of, oh, I'll try some core exercises. Oh, I'll go to Ms. Sue. So, you know, all these different things. And so someone suggested a yoga teacher in our town as someone who just had been a physical therapist, and that was a yoga teacher. Maybe she could help. We sat down together and literally only sat for an hour that we did not move. And I was struck by the fact that over the course of our conversation, I said to her, you know, I feel like, um, there's just something out of alignment in my body. And she said, anytime, I hear someone say, something's out of alignment. I think that's in your life and not in your body. And I took that as an invitation to share about my life.
Speaker 3 00:05:13 And what was amazing was that, as I said, well, my gosh, we moved it. I don't know who I am and I'm trying to play this part, but I'm drinking too much wine while I do it because how am I going to show up otherwise, you know, all these different things. Um, I could feel the pain leave my body. It was like a little valve had been opened. And I didn't understand what had happened for a couple of reasons. I didn't understand why as a Christian talking to someone who's not a Christian, I experienced what truly felt like a miraculous healing. So I was like, I'm attributing this to God's work in my life, but that's certainly not how you who are sitting here with me would talk about it. What is going on? And then two, nothing has changed. I, all I've done is sit here.
Speaker 3 00:05:52 My life is still a mess and I don't know who I am and I don't know how to get out of that. And I said that to her, to Ann, who I was talking with, and she said, you know, you don't need to fix all your problems in order for healing to happen. You just need to acknowledge the source of the pain. And I think there was deep, deep truth in that, that I had refused to acknowledge that I was upset about what was going on and this sense of like loss of identity. So that was this very, very particular moment that prompted a lot of questions, a lot of gratitude, and then a real like healing journey for me to start looking at my own life and all these different layers. And actually, I mean, again, kind of ironic that I'm sitting with a yoga teacher who is not in any way, a practicing Christian, and that leads me into the gospel stories of healing in a very much deeper way than I'd ever experienced them before. Um, and so over time I just realized I was kept circling around this, all of the different questions and topics that came up. Um, and so that's why I landed on this book again, kind of didn't recognize all the minefields that come with writing about healing, um, and faith, especially. And yet I'm, I'm really glad. I mean, I've learned so much and truly have experienced so much healing through the process of it. So I'm really glad that I didn't know what I was doing. It started.
Speaker 0 00:07:21 I love it. Well, I'm glad too, because it has been, um, a real, real blessing to me as I have read it, um, over this past week or so the one thing that I kind of want to bring up at the beginning though, is that I don't think it's just me, but I think in, and maybe it is kind of my Bible belt speaking here. Um, and, and there is a little Pentecostal in my, in my tradition, but the healing that you write about in the book now, I will say these two stories for people who are familiar with them, the people in these two stories do experience miraculous, physical healing, the woman with the issue of blood no longer has the issue of blood Jaris. His daughter becomes a life, right? My, my kids and I love to it to debate that, was she actually sleeping or was she actually dead?
Speaker 0 00:08:14 Did Jesus just say that? Or what was going, you know, and we all kind of have our own opinions on that, but, um, but this book about healing is not limited to physical kind of healing and quotes. Like we think about that, right? Um, like we think about what would, what would happen in physical healing? So I'm wondering if you can explore that part, just kind of, even as we, as we go into some of the other layers of the book, because I think that that might be something for people who haven't seen it yet or read it yet, our minds might kind of jump to that conclusion, oh, this is all about physical healing, you know, back pain, these two stories in the, in the gospels, but this, but this book is about is wider and deeper.
Speaker 3 00:09:02 Yeah. I mean, I think so it was so interesting again, in that personal experience I had was that sense of my body signaling to me something that was in that case, like more emotional and spiritual in nature. And so there was a healing that could happen as soon as I said, oh, this pain is just a signal. Like it literally was like a signpost. And as soon as I paid attention to the sign, I didn't need the sign anymore. And so I could deal with it in a different way. Obviously there are some pain that, that is not all that's going on. And I think it can be this really overly, simplistic and reductionistic understanding of God, of healing of our bodies to say that that is what's going on. Although the amount of stress related disease and injury there is, I mean, I've learned so much about it and writing this book.
Speaker 3 00:09:51 It's amazing. I mean, even people who are like, well, yeah, I tore my ACL because I was pushing so hard. Having not slept very much having, you know, like there, even with something that's like, no, no, there's a piece of your body that tore apart. Right. That's just an injury. And yet there usually is some measure like circumstance that contributes to that. However, um, the other thing I noticed was in looking at these healing stories in the gospels, they do initially seem like quick fixes. And I did have this question. I'm also the mom of a child with down syndrome. So, um, have been kind of in the disability world, at least as a family member for many years now, she's 16. And so that sense of, well, what about people who are faithful and beautiful and created good by God? You know, what about when healing doesn't happen or when their bodies are, or minds are different?
Speaker 3 00:10:48 Do we really have to, is that the same as being broken? Like all those types of questions. Um, I did need to bring to my exploration of the healing stories in the gospels, because it seems kind of simplistic on first reading, but then I started to notice, I mean, first of all, you do have stories of people who experienced healing without any physical change in their bodies that we know of. So that would be, for example, like Zachias, I would say as a healing story, the same word is used to describe what happens when salvation comes to the Kia, says house as when the woman with the issue of blood stops bleeding. And so you're like, oh, well, all of a sudden that takes on a different, the healing is a little bit different than what I thought, right? Because there's more going on than just a physical fix to her body.
Speaker 3 00:11:36 And also more going on for as a Kia if we see this in terms of healing. So that was the first kind of expansion. And even I think the story of the man who was paralyzed and Jesus says your sins are forgiven and it's such a weird story cause you're like, um, but his legs, what are you doing? Jesus? And then Jesus is like, okay, fine. If you want to know that I've forgiven him, but go ahead and walk like no big deal. I'm happy for him to walk. But like, what he needs to know is he's been restored to God. And that's what I want to tell him. Like, so there's also the sense of Jesus. His approach to healing certainly is not that surface healing that I think many people want. And he was kind of happy to give that to people. It wasn't as though he denied them that, but it also did not seem to be like the driving force or emphasis for him when he was, you know, providing those types of things.
Speaker 3 00:12:28 Um, and then the last thing I'll say is just Luke 14 is important to me in this whole conversation around healing and disability and, uh, bodies, because we have this picture that Jesus gives of the banquet in God's presence and the people who are at the banquet or the poor, the blind, the crippled, and there's one other, one of their descriptive. Anyway, the point is they come to the banquet in their bodies that we would call disabled, right. And it's not like stop at the door, get your healing. Then you get to sit down and have the feast it's like, as you are sit down or even the beatitudes, right? Like, bless it are those right now who are poor and meek and, um, and bearing some measure of brokenness. So I think it's really complex, but it's also really heartening to think about, um, the healing that God wants to offer us that is includes our bodies, but isn't reduced to our bodies.
Speaker 0 00:13:30 Yeah. Thank you for, um, for sharing that and kind of giving some, um, some work, some more insight into that. I know. Um, I, we talked a little bit before we started recording and, and you're in your book, you shared some similar stories too. And I shared a couple of those with you, um, of people in my life who, um, had a disability in their bodies that they were fully aware of obviously, and, and actually rejected the request. And the people asked if they could pray for their, you know, healing, um, because they would say, this is how God made me, God made me this way, made me, um, he made me beautiful. Um, I love the story that you share. I think it's more the end of your book. When you talk about your daughter reading, um, Psalm 1 39, uh, you know, at church and, and that was like not a planned thing, but that everyone got to experience that moment of her reciting those words and the truth in that for her and for you guys as a congregation. Um, that's just so beautiful. So I love that you have included that depth and the complexity, because it really does. I, it, this healing involves stuff that we can't see.
Speaker 3 00:14:59 Right.
Speaker 0 00:15:00 We just can't see it.
Speaker 3 00:15:02 And there are things about, I think for, um, any of us in our bodies, but especially for people who live with disabilities, there's both the kind of social problem of disability in the sense of, well, the reason I can't get across the street is not necessarily because my body is broken, but because you haven't put a curb cut in, so the wheelchair gets stuck. Like, what problem are we really trying to address here is my body, the problem, or is the sidewalk the problem, right? Um, so you have experiences like that. You know, we, we don't talk about people who need glasses as people with disabilities, because glasses are ubiquitous. They're, it's just not seen that way in our culture. And yet we could, like, we could take away all the glasses and be like, what's your problem. No health insurance is not paying for that, you know, and you become somehow better and more whole, if you don't need glasses to read and it's like, wait, no, that's, we've structured our whole society around the idea that this is something that some people need and some people don't.
Speaker 3 00:16:05 Okay. Um, but there's also can be, I think, pain and separation and physical experiences of pain that comes with disability as with chronic illness as with mental illness. So it's also not just saying, like, I put my stamp of approval on every single human and there are no problems and Jesus has nothing to offer here, you know, other than like a deep emotional healing. So I think it's important for us to recognize that. And yet also to say, um, I was reading actually rereading a quotation by John Swinton when I was working on something this morning, he's a theologian who works a lot with, um, memory loss, patients Alzheimer's and dementia, um, and has written a lot about disability and, um, uh, memory loss. And one of the things he says is like a hedonistic varsity, um, college athlete needs more healing than a child with down syndrome.
Speaker 3 00:17:02 Like, I'm just going to say that as a blatant, like the body of a person who is, you know, consumed with themselves is a less healthy body than the body of someone with a disability who understands dependence upon God and is living in loving relationship with others. So, yeah, I mean, I guess that just gets back to that sense of this is complex. Um, and, and I guess the other thing I did come to in writing this book was that God's healing is for each of us, like we each need healing and it's gonna look different for different people in terms of what that need is, but we do each need healing. And it's also for all of us, no one is excluded from the need, but also no one is excluded from the love that we are invited to receive by, I think, um, yeah, welcoming that healing.
Speaker 0 00:17:57 Yeah. Um, you know, it, it, you, you did mention, um, Paul's thorn in the flesh. Right. And I think that, you know, each of us, like, as you just said, each of us need God's healing, but I think that it's
Speaker 0 00:18:20 Maybe one of these things that we're saying this, this could be an overwhelming thing to think about. Like, um, well, did Paul not receive God's fullest love because he was tortured with this thing, whatever it was, um, you know, for the whole of his life. And, um, and, and you'd say that you say that about a lot of different parts of Paul's life, actually. Like, I wouldn't want to go through like anything that Paul went through, probably including his conversion, because I want to be freaked out and be blind for three days. And, you know, like not having known what was happening and, you know, being guided by people who may or may not be my enemies and, you know, all of this and being that vulnerable, all of that kind of freaks me out. Um, but you know, I think that no one would argue, oh yeah, Paul just really wasn't that deeply loved by Jesus.
Speaker 0 00:19:12 You know? I mean that he, Jesus just withheld from him. And I guess that's just what we have to deal with. Like, I don't know anyone who would make that argument of Paul yet. He had hardship and he had physical pain probably, um, you know, it's something in him that, that he begged the Lord to take away and, and he never did. And then I guess part of what I'm getting to with that is, is like skipping to the end of the book kind of, but just thinking about like, kind of, are you, you, you do talk about our participation in our healing, but I'm also kind of thinking about our participation in walking through this life with Jesus in the areas that we feel healed and the areas that we don't does that make sense?
Speaker 3 00:19:57 I, you know, this, I wrestled with this question of like pain that doesn't go away. Um, again, whether that's emotional or relational or when we have like broken bodies, broken minds, broken hearts, broken, you know, political systems, right? Like if you are talking about this on a very micro or macro level, we see all this brokenness. And I do wonder about the ways in which I think about the groaning of creation in Romans that Paul writes about. And like our bodies are a part of creation. I tend to think about that verse as meaning like the non-human world that God created, but we are part of the creation and our bodies may very well bear witness to the brokenness as well as to the healing. And I think about, I don't know how kind of, um, I don't know how this is all meted out.
Speaker 3 00:20:49 I think about the eight year old who lives in a city where there's pollution and experiences asthma, and no one would say that she has done something wrong or that her parents have done something wrong, or, you know, and yet we all can say her body is like experiencing the brokenness in the world and could Jesus heal her. Sure. And maybe he will. And yet I think there's also something important about bearing witness in our bodies to the brokenness of the world, as much as it's important in our bodies to bear witness to the belovedness with which God has made us. So I don't know how to make sense of that, but that is, um, that's still where I kind of land in. All of it is that God is present in the brokenness as well as in the blessing or the healing. Right. And, and all of that. We're invited to know ourselves as the ones who God loves as mysterious and challenging as that often is
Speaker 0 00:21:50 One thing I felt like I received from your book was taking even those, both of those aspects that you talked about and kind of using those places in our lives, the broken places and the places that aren't where we can like maybe see our belovedness a little bit more clearly as tools and as kind of maybe places where we can begin a new conversation with the Lord. So maybe this example, um, might help what I'm saying a little bit. Um, I have, uh, an auto-immune disease and, you know, no one can see it on me. Right. Um, but I have to be really careful what I eat or I will be very, very sick for days. And, um, and there is kind of this one camp and that lives in my head that says, God wants to heal you from this. Like, you don't have to live this way.
Speaker 0 00:22:53 Like this is a lifelong disorder. Um, then there's kind of this other, there was this grief when I was diagnosed of this is a lifelong disorder, right. And without God's intervention, like there's no medication, I can't do anything about it. But then I was introduced, um, to kind of this other little camp by, um, by a woman who has a similar issue. And she, we both have to abstain from things in our diet. And she said, just kind of in passing, she said, you know, I I'd only met her a few times. And she said, you know, I just see it as a spiritual discipline. And, and I just thought, well, crap, I don't like that. Like, that's no good you're right. No, thank you. Right. But I think like, but that invites a new conversation that I can have with the Lord that I didn't have before.
Speaker 0 00:23:44 I've kind of been down these other roads with him, but my disorder is still there. And that invites a new conversation that I can have with the Lord. Can I look at this as a, as something that I am exercising as a steer, as a spiritual discipline, you know, just as an example. So, um, anyway, I just think that we could, the, uh, one of the things I received from your book is kind of on this spectrum. This is really, these are invitations for us to engage with the Lord in, in these various points on our journey. So can you give us a story or something you can share with us that maybe illustrates that?
Speaker 3 00:24:25 Yeah. So two things come to mind. One is just that, um, brokenness and limitations are not the same thing, but we often speak about them as though they are. And so I think that for me with disability, like I, when penny was first born and I think I thought about her as like just broken like that her cells were broken, that her chromosome comes or bro, you know, and like that, that was a manifestation of sin. And it was like, oh gosh, what am I thinking? And eventually a friend of mine actually said to me, she's like, but limitations are not the same thing as brokenness. And I think about that. Um, and it might be again in conversation with God to say, wait, is this something that's broken in my body? Or is it something that's limited? And if it's limited, then I mean, all of us, like the, I think the sin of Adam and Eve was saying, I don't want my limits.
Speaker 3 00:25:08 I want everything I can have. I want all the food, right. Literally in that case, like I want the food I'm not supposed to have. And so I'm going to take it, um, instead of receiving from God, what I've been given. So I agree that are like different ways to look at it. And I'm not sure that either one is like right or wrong, but both of them are an invitation into a deeper conversation with God. Um, for me personally, that has also meant that when I experience aches and pains and illness, I do ask the question, God, are you trying to, um, show me something like, is there a deeper, emotional or spiritual something going on that I'm not paying attention to? And even just this past weekend, I was going for a run and my left Achilles tendon was really tight. And I was w I had walked a lot the day before.
Speaker 3 00:25:59 So in my mind, I was like, oh yeah, that's what happens when you walk a lot. But I was like, but my right leg walked a lot too. And like, I walk a lot. I mean, what, so, because I've been working on this stuff, I did, I started asking him that question, like, is there anything else going on here? And as I, um, as I was running and kind of praying about this, I remembered a few years earlier having the same experience. And I was talking to my son about it. And he said, mom, the word that comes to mind is grounded. And I, yeah, I know who knows what, where this wise man was coming from, like a nine-year-old body. But, um, but I was thinking this years ago about this idea of being rooted and grounded in love. And so, as I was running and my Achilles is tight, I mean, not painful but tight.
Speaker 3 00:26:46 And I just thought, okay, how am I living in a way that is rooted and grounded in love today? And it was like, no, I'm not. I'm living. And I'm drawing nourishment from anxiety, from my fear that I've screwed something up. I'd had a conversation with someone where I just spoke quickly and she was mad and I didn't blame her, but I also didn't know if I could fix it, you know? And it's like, I am living out of that anxiety and not out of the love of God and having this like tension pain, whatever in my left Achilles was what led me into having to admit, like, I'm really anxious about this. I'm scared to even pray about it. I don't even know what to ask for, you know, all of those types of things. So I do think our bodies can be a guide into those conversations. And in my case, they're like, it really did help. My leg really felt better from going through that process. I don't think that's always how, where we end up, but I do think that, um, our bodies are invitations for a deeper connection to God in all of the, you know, various ways that we need that connection.
Speaker 0 00:27:51 Yeah. One of the things that you point out pretty early in the book is, is that it really spoke to me because for the past few years I've been kind of thinking a similar thing, but I don't really know how to, how to grasp what's happened. But you say that we've been taught to isolate our minds from our bodies and our spirits and kind of in my mind when I roll it around, I, and when I, you know, in those conversations, when I solve all the world's problems with my husband, I use this like, you know, this term of this like disembodied theology. Right. And I think that we have this disembodied theology of, um, when it comes to ourselves and the people around us, but also, I, I kind of think it's because we really have this disembodied, like this theology of Jesus incarnation, you know, I think we separate his divinity and his humanity way too much.
Speaker 0 00:28:44 And, um, and so anyway, but that's good go a whole other whole other story, but, you know, you say we've been taught and I think we have been taught to do this, and we've been taught to do it in church. I think, I actually think there are probably lots of other religions that have like a more holistic view on our minds and our, in our spirits, in our bodies than we do in the Western, uh, church at least. Um, and so how have you seen that, like manifesting in, in your context and what, you know, this is a good example of a way that you can kind of heal that and disembodiment, but what are some other things that we can do, you know, other ways to look at it, to try and put those pieces back together?
Speaker 3 00:29:29 Yeah, I mean, I do think, you know, there has been this in the Western world split of mind and spirit and body for many, many years. Um, whether we go back to like the ancient Greeks, where there was a sense of the soul being what we were going for and the body being a corrupt shell. Um, so we saw that even in like early on in the history of the church, um, but then more recently with the enlightenment. So like 500 years ago, essentially prioritizing the material world, including the body over the spirit. So we've gone in both directions. Like the soul is more important or the body is more important, but I think that an embodied understanding of humanity, which is very much a Christian one, um, nev and very much a biblical one, nevertheless, is what we have to reclaim as Christian. So I think it's embedded in our stories.
Speaker 3 00:30:18 I think that's how Jesus lived. Um, and what Jesus is healing does point us back to, but it's not been at least my experience in the church. Um, and for me thinking through embodied practices has been really life-giving and important, whether that is like literally using my body to pray. And we've got long traditions of this, right? Whether it's like raising your hands in worship or kneeling down in prayer, or even just praying while you walk, because there's a sense of that, um, movement. And even just the idea of like walking with God, right? Like, um, going down a journey on a journey together, and that can be out in the woods, or it can be something that's a little more formal, like a labyrinth, which is an ancient embodied prayer practice. But then for me also, even what I was just describing in terms of when there is illness or pain, uh, and or when our bodies respond physically, which I've only gotten, I've been learning how to notice that noticing where that when, whether it's like a news event that really strikes me or someone I'm talking to on the phone, and I like will put my hand on my heart, or I can feel my shoulders tense, or even like my voice construct.
Speaker 3 00:31:33 Right. Like just noticing those things and starting to ask questions about them and trying to say, okay, what's the invitation to prayer here. And it might be something really obvious. Like, you know, when my shoulders are like up to my ears, I can pretty easily be like, okay, maybe I should pray about like his yoke being easy and his burden light. Right? Like that is kind of a, I don't know, almost an obvious connection. And there are other things that aren't that direct. And yet I still think using our body as a guide into prayer, both in terms of celebration and in terms of lament and, uh, and our need for love and for healing, that's been really transformational for me, um, in yeah. Bringing my body to God, but also believing that God's love and presence comes to us by way of our bodies.
Speaker 0 00:32:25 Yeah. My, it reminds me of like years ago, I was introduced to this in a way with my therapist. And I was, if I was having a, uh, an emotion, right. And I was trying to explain to her what the emotion wasn't, she would, we would go through these exercises and she would ask me where in my body did I feel that? And I first I thought, well, you're a lunatic, but then, you know, when I started engaging with her a bit more, you know, I think it really, um, really helped in so many ways, but also, but one of the ways was like with a recognition that those emotions are valid, right. That, that God does try to speak to us through those things and asks us like all these invitations again, like asking us to engage with him, you know, um, in those places.
Speaker 0 00:33:09 But sometimes that's hard and that's kind of where I want to switch gears to next. Um, if it's okay, because yeah, you've got this, you kind of talk about the, in the first part of the book, like the nature of healing, but then you go into, before you talk about how we can participate, you have this middle section where you talk about, um, potential barriers to healing and, and some of those were, um, maybe more familiar to me, like a distraction or shame, but the section on the chapter, I think that you dedicated to status really struck me because I don't know if you asked me to, to name four and you gave me a hundred chances. I don't know that I would say, oh yeah, status. Now, that's the one that I'm missing, but it didn't take much convincing. Right? Like the second page of the chapter, I was like, oh, she's totally right. So, um, for other people who may not guess that and a hundred guesses, what, what do you mean when you talk about status being a barrier to healing?
Speaker 3 00:34:20 Yeah, that's a great question. So this kind of also goes back a ways in my own experience, as far as recognizing when I had a child with a disability, the first thing I recognized was that she had been excluded based on having down syndrome from spaces where I had always been welcomed, or she would be, I mean, she's a baby at the time that I'm thinking about this, but like she would be excluded. And my first instinct was to want to bring her to where I had had access. Right. But over time, what I began to recognize was like, just breaking down a wall so that you can be like me, I'm continuing to perpetuate this sense that like, I am the ideal human or something like that. There's nothing wrong with my way of being and nothing harmful about my way of being. And I started to see that the isolation and, uh, I looked into, I mean, an I am, you know, just for people who aren't seeing me physically, like I'm a white woman.
Speaker 3 00:35:20 I grew up with, um, education affluence had lots of opportunities, married parents, stable home. So kind of like privilege all over the place. Um, and I also grew up with a lot of anxiety and depression and substance abuse. And as I started to investigate this, that was not unusual. Like, it's this whole like meritocracy where, whether you have been born into it or whether you've worked your way into it, the values of people, quote, unquote like me, um, they lead to a lot of harm and not just harm in terms of the oppression and injustice and exclusion of people like my daughter, but harm to ourselves, like within the community of kids who are striving to get A's and to get into the right college, just so that they can get the right job, just so that they can get the right car or whatever that endless, um, race to nowhere.
Speaker 3 00:36:14 Right. I mean, just that sense of dissatisfaction and even again, um, deep harm that's happening there. And so, as I noticed that harm of exclusion and harm of isolation is how I started to think about it before I was even working on this book. But then I looked at gyrus and this woman with the issue of blood, and I thought they're so different, right? Like, I mean, he, it has a name. He has power. He has a family, he has wealth, he has a house like, and yet they both have the same need. And honestly, in the gospels, gyrus is the far less likely person to come to Jesus with his need. And it is his status that keeps him from that healing. It's not that he doesn't need it, it's that he has to acknowledge that need. And that is going to be hard for him and for people like him, which is to say people like me, um, in a different way than it is for her.
Speaker 3 00:37:10 I mean, there are, there are different barriers I think for her. Um, but for him to have to publicly come to Jesus and say, I cannot care for my daughter on my own, and I need you. And that's it. I mean, that's, that's a huge overcoming. Uh, and, and, and somehow I think that the woman is a part of gyrus as healing, not just his daughter, but the fact that Jesus stops and makes him essentially wait and watch as this unnamed, um, bleeding, poor outcast woman is healed. I think that's a part of, um, gyrus is healing as well. And similarly for me, a part of my healing has been not just saying I would welcome people like penny into my world, but I desperately need people like penny because of my own places of vulnerability and need and the things that I, I will never be able to do on my own. Um, so yeah, so I, I do, I think you're right. That status is not something I would have started out on my list either. And yet it has become like a profoundly, um, important thing for me to recognize how much our social hierarchies harm all of us.
Speaker 0 00:38:26 Yeah, it is. Um, I'm thinking back to, um, Daniel Hill wrote a book called white lies and he talks about the same thing. This is harm of white supremacy, right? But like when we believe a lie about humanity, then it is not only harmful to the people that it's obviously harmful to. Right. Because this why of white supremacy is not only harmful to people of color, but it is harmful to white people as well, who have believed it because then white people are believing a lie about themselves. That's not true that they are somehow superior. There's this hierarchy that exists. Right. And it's exactly, as you say that it's, it's harmful. Anytime we buy into those lies, anytime we buy into this status that you're talking about kind of this like should be way of living. I think that's, that's kind of, that's kind of one of the overarching themes. I think I keep getting from this writing is, is that the way that we see things that kind of are, should be like, we just need to throw those out Because we just aren't, you know, I don't know why I keep also thinking of like, when Samuel came to choose David, right. And he's like, you don't, you don't see the things that God sees. Right? Like we, these aren't the same things. We're not seeing the same things about humanity, uh, humans. We see them one way and God sees something entirely different. Right. Um, than we do. Um, so that was huge to me.
Speaker 0 00:39:58 You move on from that section and talk about ways in which I think God allows us to participate in our own healing. Like, it's not that we have a responsibility for it. Um, but it's this active participation that we get to do again, we see it with these two figures, um, in what they physically do and how they, and how they approach Jesus, but that we also have, um, we also have that, and the note I have on that section, it relates to this because it's not just individually, when, when you said that gyrus had to wait it's yeah, because our formation is communal and he was formed by that waiting. And, and I would say that she was formed probably to, if she had recognized that Jesus made a synagogue leader, wait for her and not just for healing, but for a conversation and for him to call her daughter and all of these things, like how, how much love did she feel? Um, you know, how much was her belovedness affirmed in those moments with Jesus, because he was, you know, operating in that communal way with, with all of them together. So, um, I don't know where you want to go in that participation place. You've got, um, lots of places there, but
Speaker 3 00:41:24 Yeah, I, um, I mean, certainly for me, I just remember when I was reading that story for the, you know, 717 at the time. And that Jesus says to the, so this woman, she reaches out her hand and her blood, as she can feel in her body, that the blood has stopped. Like she has been healed on that physical level, but then Jesus, it says, feels the power has gone out from him. And so he stops and says, who touched me? And the disciples are all like, who touched you? Everyone touched you. You're in a crowd. Let's stop. We've got an important guy who is, wants us to come with him. But Jesus is like, no. And so the woman comes up to him and she says, she's trembling with fear. So it's not as though she has some like incredible theological understanding of who Jesus is and approved belovedness or any of that she's trembling with fear.
Speaker 3 00:42:14 And it says, she told him the whole truth. And at the end of that, there's so much in what these very simple words that Jesus says, but he says, daughter, your faith has healed you. And I remember when I first, I was like, what do you mean her faith has healed her? First of all, she does not seem to have a tremendous amount of faith. She seems to think you were like some magic guy who she could just touch this side of your garment and be healed. And second of all, she's afraid of you. So like, what do you mean her faith? And then third of all, it was your power that healed her. It was not her faith, right? So it's like, why did you say that? And he says it multiple times. It's what he says to blind. Bartimaeus, it's what he says to the leper who comes back and gives thanks.
Speaker 3 00:42:56 It's what he says to actually the woman who falls at his feet, who is not physically healed, but, um, you know, wipes his feet with her tears. So he says that multiple times, and I just thought, you know, Jesus really is wanting us to recognize our belovedness, but also that like even the smallest faith is that we are participants in our own healing, but like, we are a part of this and he wants to affirm us and acknowledge that. And then he says to her, go in peace and be freed from your suffering. And again, it kind of seems like a throwaway line go in peace, be well, goodbye, you know, but that word peace, um, you know, for Jesus would have been Shalom and it would have been that concept of wholeness and of restoration and of bringing with her into the community, the healing that she's already received.
Speaker 3 00:43:46 That sense of go and bring this with you. You have a participation in healing that can continue not just for yourself, but for your community. So there was just a richness to that for me that, um, made so much sense of like why Jesus heals so much that it's not just about, again, back to our beginning conversation, it's not just about bodies feeling better, but about like bringing a restored humanity and creation together to know what it means to be loved by God and to care for one another. Um, and he sends her out with that as the message go in peace.
Speaker 0 00:44:22 Yeah. That's, that's really rich. And I kinda got snagged back when you were, when were telling all of the reasons why like, like her faith, are you kidding me? You know, because I think it, it is like, what if we really did see one another in each other's face journeys with that kind of grace? You know, like I think, you know, we see it mean right now, it's like no secret of me to tell you, like, there's a little division in the church, you know? Like we feel, we feel a little disunified right now. Um, but like, I don't know, it's just kind of like this, I don't know, just, just the thought of like, like what kind of feeling would we experience? What kind of piece would it be experienced as a community? If we were able to just engage with one another and have that grace kind of for each other's faith, instead of, well, she doesn't believe like me, so that must not be valid or, you know, what do you mean her, her faith did this? Like, obviously not like, but like, Jesus didn't seem to, didn't seem to pass that kind of judgment on people's faith. Right. And I love that you pointed that out about her because I never really thought about that before, but I, but I saw it as being really true the way he explained it.
Speaker 3 00:45:48 Yeah. And I think, I mean, you know, we talk about this, but like even I was in working on that part of the passage, like thinking about the disciples in the boat with Jesus when he calms the storm and it's like, he calms the storm and then he says you of little faith, like it, he doesn't comment because they have a lot of faith and calms it and then tells them they didn't have any faith. Um, and I think that's the other thing, going back to the barriers of healing and the idea of participating. Cause I think it could be easy to be like, okay, I need to overcome the barriers, like put down my iPhone and make sure I'm, you know, uh, eating and drinking correctly and don't have any shame and deal with my status problems. And then I can come to Jesus for healing.
Speaker 3 00:46:30 And what's really beautiful about this passage and about so many of the passages in the gospels is that in the midst of all of those barriers, Jesus is still very much available. And yeah, I think it helps when we can see that these things are getting in our way of experiencing the fullness of what God wants to offer us. And yet it's not as though God is blocked too, because we have shame in our life. Like it's more that recognizing that we have shame and then that might impede our reception of healing, um, might actually help us to see that in the midst of my shame, Jesus is like wanting to pour out love on me in the midst of my distraction. Jesus is wanting to pour out attention on me, you know, th that, that kind of thing. And I think we see that with this woman, um, that he is commending her for her faith the same way. You know, again, we think of that analogy of being God's children and that sense of a parent who is applauding a child who takes one wobbly and then falls over. And you're like, yeah, that was actually not very good walking,
Speaker 0 00:47:35 Better walking,
Speaker 3 00:47:38 Better walking into that. Right. But like the parent, you're just thrilled for that kid. Um, and so I think that there is just a really different perspective that God has for us. And if we could begin to have that for one another, I think there's a tremendous amount of healing that could happen
Speaker 0 00:47:54 In this section. You, you talk about, um, some systemic issues as well. Um, some societal places, um, that need healing, where we can participate. Um, what's maybe one of the places that you would highlight out of that.
Speaker 3 00:48:16 Yeah. I mean, I think the places that I think about the most have to do with both disability and racial divisions, um, and with disability, it's thinking, but I think there's a parallel between these, like, what does it mean to create spaces of belonging and for churches, especially, um, to think about what does, what do our spaces communicate in terms of who belongs here? Our programs, the way things on the walls, whether who's reading scripture from upfront, what if you're a, you know, if you're a white male pastor, are you ever quoting women or people of color, right? Like you can't change your ethnic makeup personally, but you can make it really clear that you are in communion with people who come from different racial and ethnic backgrounds than your own. And certainly that the body of Christ is made up of a broader cross section of people.
Speaker 3 00:49:11 And I think there is a way to participate in healing in some of those almost small gestures, but I think they're really meaningful. Um, and I think that similarly in our own lives, if we look at what does it mean to receive healing from God, there's a sense of if I need to pay attention to pain, instead of denying it or avoiding it, I need to ask for help from God and from other people. And then I need to surrender to the healing, like let it happen. Um, which is actually a humbling experience. And I think that's true for us when it comes to these broader social issues as well, pay attention to the pain, which especially, um, for white people and white Christians has been something we could choose not to do to pay attention to some of the, um, social pain that has been certainly for hundreds of years, very present.
Speaker 3 00:50:05 Um, and perhaps we've started to pay more attention in recent years, uh, at least in some parts of our country and some parts of the church, but then to say, I think many of us pay attention to the pain and we say, and I don't know what to do about it. And we stop there instead of saying, which is when you just get to ask for help. And that can mean doing a lot of learning. It can mean praying. It can. I mean, it can mean any number of, but pay attention to pain, ask for help, and then surrender to the healing, which is going to mean part of this humbling experience of whether that's forming friendships or participating in acts of undoing an injustice, um, which again can take all sorts of shapes and forms. So those are the things that come to mind in terms of like a participation in social healing is, um, similar actually to participation in personal healing. And I think that is because both of them are linked to each other and part of our healing is being, recognizing the social aspects of it. All
Speaker 0 00:51:05 Right. And I think it, part of the reason, I think we're probably not able to do that. Maybe goes back to, you know, part of the previous conversation of like, we've got this in the, on the micro scale, we've got this disembodied theology of our own selves as individuals. And so if we don't see our own selves as being connected, then it's really difficult for us to see ourselves as being connected to the greater society and the greater community. Right. So we have a lot of work to do a lot of healing to experience, um, in those areas. Um, Amy, Julia, I'm going to ask two more things of you if that's okay. If you have the time, the first one is, um, I always prepare like at least a page of notes and I never followed them. So I'm going to ask you, um, if there's, you know, what's left burning in you what's that place. I didn't go. What's that question? I didn't ask. I'm going to ask you to answer it. Um, and then I did see in the back of the book that you are licensed minister and your denomination. And so I was just going to ask you if you would, um, pray for us after that, to kind of close out our time, um, pray for our healing, pray for, you know, just however the spirit leads you in that way, if, if you would.
Speaker 3 00:52:24 Yeah, absolutely. You know, I, you did reach your heavens. Can you go, um, you know, I'll tell you the one thing I have not talked about a lot on, um, various like podcasts I've been on and things like that. Uh, there's a chapter in the book called Jesus. His name is healer and it was really regulatory to me when I just started to recognize, um, it's in Matthew's gospel when he says, um, you should call his name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. And I did some investigating into that and that same word save, um, can be translated, heals. So that's the first thing you could say, you would call his name Jesus, because he would hit, he will heal his people from their sins, which is an interesting, like, in, and of it's that alone is interesting. Right. But then I was like, oh, wait, okay.
Speaker 3 00:53:11 So Jesus is a Greek word for a Hebrew word, which is Yeshua. And Jesus was probably called in Aramaic, Yasha. Uh, that's probably how that all went. And so I never think of I'm like, oh my gosh, when he was walking around, nobody was saying, Hey Jesus, they were saying Yasha or yes, you all right. Um, and Yasha is the Aramaic word for healing. Like it's like that really is embedded in the name of Jesus. So anyway, it's kind of a Bible fun fact, but I also think it's a, um, a real indication of the centrality of healing to what God wants us to know about who he is and what he can do in our lives. So that's the, that's the question I'll answer
Speaker 0 00:54:00 On that note. Can I share a really quick story that is related to that? So I hope this one never ever leaves me. I think I've shared it once or twice on the podcast, but years and years and years ago, my husband and I, um, were in Tel Aviv with some of our friends. This is like pre-kids. Um, and we were just chatting with some people on the beach because Israelis love to chat and we love to chat with them. We'd had nothing better to do. And so we just, um, one of our friends was having a conversation with a guy on the beach and they were always asking us why we were there. And we had this answer. We just said, well, we're, we're Christians, we're from the states and we're here, we're hanging out, we're touring. Um, but you know, we also just want to tell you guys that like your shoe, it just really loves you a whole lot.
Speaker 0 00:54:50 And that's it, you know, we didn't, we didn't try to proselytize or anything. And in Israel they have a kind of a derogatory name. That's like a shortcut of your shoe that some people use instead of, instead of that name. And so sometimes people haven't heard that Yeshua that you've talked about is like a full name for Jesus in Hebrew. And this, this Israeli man looked at our friend and we're out looking at the Mediterranean sea. And he says, yes, you are. He says, do you want to know what this word means? You know? And like several of our friends had been studying Hebrew and stuff and including my friend he was talking to and he said, well, sure, yeah, tell me what it is. And he's, he's kind of like, I just can't imagine why we would call this false Messiah Yeshua, right. Where he just can't understand that he says, do you want to know what this word means? We're looking out at the Mediterranean. He says, imagine you are out there and you are drowning and you are begging and flailing for help and someone comes and rescues you. That Is your shoe. And my friend just looks at him and he says, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:56:02 Yeah, that's it. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:56:04 Feeling salvation, rescue restoration, all of the above,
Speaker 0 00:56:09 All of the things. Right. Amen. Thank you so much, Amy. Julia, would you mind praying for us?
Speaker 3 00:56:14 I love to pray for us. All right. That's great. Um, Lord Jesus Yeshua healer savior. The one who loves us in ways that we can't even begin to understand or imagine. And yet in ways that we are just so grateful for, I pray that everyone who is listening to this conversation today would know that your healing love is available for them, even if it's in ways that are unexpected. Uh, I pray that they would be able to acknowledge pain, ask for help and surrender to your healing. Love for them today. And I pray these things in your powerful name, the men.
Speaker 0 00:57:00 Amen. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:57:02 Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:57:04 So again, this book is to be made well, an invitation to wholeness, healing and hope by Amy, Julia, Becker. Um, Amy, Julia, where can we, um, connect with you easiest. What's the best place for us to reach you?
Speaker 3 00:57:19 Well, I have a website, Amy, Julia becker.com, but I'm also on, um, Instagram and Twitter under that handle, Amy Julia Becker, and then on Facebook at Amy Julia Becker writer.
Speaker 0 00:57:32 Awesome. Thank you so much. And that the link for this book and for your podcast will be in the show notes as well as this information that you just gave. So thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 00:57:45 Thanks for having me. It was great.
Speaker 2 00:57:49 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
