Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis ETT, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes that makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody. I am super excited to be talking with Karen Gonzalez again today. Welcome back, Karen.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Thank you. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1 00:00:53 Oh, I it's, it's such a joy. I am sitting here with a, an advanced copy of your new book. We did talk previously about your, about your first book, and I will link that in the, in the episode notes for this conversation, but today we're gonna focus on beyond welcome, which can I just say the cover to this book is beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 Thank you. I love it. It's they were inspired. I sent them pictures of Guatemala and, uh, handmade textiles and that's how they made the cover. So I'm so glad you liked it too.
Speaker 1 00:01:33 Oh, I love it. And I'm sitting here, we're recording this as we're entering into Hispanic, Latino, uh, heritage month in mid-September. And so it, it feels, uh, very vibrant, uh, to me to be reading this book, to be speaking with you, to be reflecting on, on the cover, which thank you for telling me that that was inspired by these textiles. It just, it just all kind of feels like it's a, it's a vibe for me right now, sitting in this. So thank you so, so much for being here. I do wanna, I feel like the place that I wanna start, cuz I just, I just finished this over coffee this morning and I'm, and I'm so excited. My mind is, is kind of racing. There's lots of places I wanna go, but I'm wondering if we could start here because I mentioned the title of the book is beyond welcome, but the subtitle is what got me and I want everyone to hear this, so I'm gonna read it from the book.
Speaker 1 00:02:32 I may repeat it centering immigrants in our Christian response to immigration, centering immigrants in our Christian response to immigration. And when I read that on the cover, the first like kind of like a mental reflex that I had was why is that so hard? <laugh> like, this seems like, I mean, it's, it's beautiful and I'm thankful for the work and all of this, but, but when I reflect on it, I'm like, this seems like kind of a dumb moment, but we don't do this well. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we don't center immigrants in our response to immigration as Christians very well. So maybe that's a good place to start because, because your book will help us do that. Praise the Lord, if we will read <laugh> your, your words here, but, but why that focus in this book?
Speaker 2 00:03:27 Well, it just so happens that this week a, an event occurred that highlights the need to do this. Thank you. And that is, you might know that the governor of Florida decided to just send Venezuelan asylum seekers. Refugees really is what they are to Martha's vineyard. And they were deceived that they were, uh, told that there were jobs and opportunities in this area where they were going. And then they were dropped literally just in the, kind of in the middle of nowhere with no one to orient them. And this was a political stunt because the governor considers, um, he is blatantly against, uh, the federal government's position on immigration. And this was done as a way to really show up his opponents politically. And to me, the most tragic thing about this is that nowhere did the people who orchestrated this, cuz it wasn't just the governor.
Speaker 2 00:04:44 There were other people involved. Did they consider, we're talking about human beings. We're not talking about widgets or just random things. We're talking about human beings who were lied to and then just used, uh, in employed to get back or get revenge on political enemies. And to me, this is the central problem with the way that we think about immigrants in our country is we don't think about our shared humanity. First we think about economics. First. We think about politics. First. We think about social issues first, you know, social, uh, situations about schooling and you know, other kinds of services that immigrants might need. And that should not be at the center of the conversation. The center of the conversation, especially for people who are Christians should always be, these are human beings who are made in the image of God and I need to honor their humanity and I need to honor their God-given dignity first.
Speaker 2 00:05:57 So if the governor did not, you know, wanted to do speak out against Biden, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have to agree with him, but if he wants to speak out, you know, that's on him, right? If he wants to block funding for something or if he wants to do something else, but we, to me, that was just the most tragic thing about this. And I'm still really grieved by it. The idea that immigrants are not seen as human beings first. And in fact, for even many people who view immigrants positively and support welcoming policies, the heart of their message is we need the labor of immigrants. Mm. And to me, that's also problematic. Now I appreciate that they're welcoming, but it's problematic to turn people into human resources instead of treating them as human beings. Yeah. So yeah, I think those are two sides of the same problem.
Speaker 1 00:07:04 Yeah. Karen, I'm so thankful that you brought that up. I was a bit distracted in our pre-recording time, but I had thought last night, I can't forget to, to ask you about that. And I will say as a resident of Texas, I'm, I'm gonna go ahead and throw Abbott out there too, because DeSantis did this in Martha's vineyard. But also this week, Greg Abbott sent a bus full of immigrants from the Southern border here between Texas and Mexico to literally in front of Kamala Harris's place of residence. Um, and it was the EV everything that you just said about this stunt, this sick, disgusting degrading stunt that, that DeSantis did with the, um, people sending them to Martha's vineyard, um, is, is true of what Abbott is in the same spirit mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right, right. And, um, and what is, there's lots of things about that that are difficult for me.
Speaker 1 00:08:14 Um, but a lot of this I think is when, when we, when you say centering immigrants and our Christian response to immigration, um, you know, this is kind of Bible belt Christianity here, right? Where political leaders in these spaces could be quoting Bible versus in one second. And the next second writing a statement defending this kind of dehumanizing behavior. Um, and we have, we've gotta do better. I don't know how we do better, but we've gotta, we've gotta do better. We've gotta look. But I mean, I'm just at a loss for words, you know, um, I'm just at a loss for words, when I saw this yesterday, just kind of scrolling the news, my first thought was this, this can't be right. You know, like I must have read this incorrectly. Like this is so wrong and sick that surely I misread this somehow. And so I opened multiple tabs on my computer trying to, trying to, to convince myself that I was the one who had heard it wrong, you know? And, um, and no, this is exactly, this is exactly what's happened in both of these instances. And I agree with you if we want to, it's our, it's our right and our privilege and our responsibility to speak against policies that we don't believe in. And even if I don't agree with those things, I think that's within the rights and responsibilities of all citizens, but this kind of stunt is sickening.
Speaker 2 00:09:56 It is, that is exactly what it is. And unfortunately it's indicative of the way that some Christians think in this country, they would excuse this behavior as being okay and not recognize all of the inherent problems with the way that God's children are being treated. And so that's really the heart of this for me, because I think as I have, you know, I wrote one book, I was invited to speak a lot. And then as I see a lot of people like on social media that I follow that are supportive of immigrants, they still sort of center instead of centering a human being, they're still centering other things, their own posture of welcome, for example, or the things that immigrants provide. Um, so for example, labor produce, uh, from agricultural work. Um, and so, and it isn't that those things aren't true, but that isn't the reason that a Christian person should value a human being. We should just value them because they're human beings first. Right. And so that, that is something that for me, is at the heart, you know, and people like the governor Abbot and DeSantis, they claim to be Christians. And so it is disturbing the way that they have behaved if that is in fact true and not just another sort of political stunt for them.
Speaker 1 00:11:36 Yeah. I, I absolutely this, this made me think of a, of a portion in your book where, um, where you talk about language that we use. And I think that that's a lot of where this starts mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and so, you know, you, you use these, you quote these phrases that we in the, in the Christian circles and church circles often use, and, and then you talk about the problem with that language. So we would recognize some of these phrases, um, welcome this stranger. We welcome refugees, um, being a voice for the voiceless, um, caring for the least of these, um, that, you know, you, I love just how you say this. I may even just kind of read this, this couple of sentences, because it was really impactful for me when you talk about how you understand and you appreciate the heart and the intention of the words, but you, you, you pull out that when we do that, we're still centering our own posture. We're not centering the people that we're claiming to be centering even in our language, but that language impacts how we love what we do, you know, even how we teach and preach on this as well. So can you talk about, can you talk about that language piece a little bit?
Speaker 2 00:13:10 Yeah. So as I looked around, you know, I see I go to protest or I see the things that people create on social media and phrases. Like we welcome refugees or welcome the stranger. There is a subject in that sentence and there is an object in that sentence and the subject is always the, we, so the native citizen with rights and the object is always the immigrant, the refugee, the asylum seeker. And so what happens in that is we're kind of removing humanity from people. All of a sudden they're reduced to just one aspect of their experience. Right. Um, I think I say in the book that a good friend of mine always says refugee person. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:14:02 <laugh> asylum seeking person just to keep before people's consciousness. The fact that we're talking about human beings, mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, and that, when I say we welcome refugees or welcome the stranger, I'm saying that somehow all of the land belongs to me and now I am welcoming people <laugh>, uh, into it. When in fact it doesn't belong to me, uh, or to anyone, you know, the Bible tells us that the creation is a gift of God for our stewardship, but it doesn't belong to us. It belongs to God. And it was given for our flourishing, for our wellbeing. It wasn't given to become a source of exploitation or hoarding of resources or oppression. And so, but I feel like that's what it's turned into. So it's problematic that kind of language in several ways, but we don't ever think about that. But if you, you know, if you came to Baltimore Lexus and I said, welcome to Baltimore, well, I live here.
Speaker 2 00:15:11 Right. Um, so I can say that to you, but I'm not in no, any way implying that I own the entire thing. <laugh> right. It'd just be like, I live here welcome. But there is something I think, problematic in that because of the way the narratives are are. So anti-immigrant right now that even ones that seem positive can be problematic, it can contribute to that problem of dehumanization, of degrading, someone of reducing someone. And so I really appreciate, there was a local church here that, uh, used to be a white neighborhood that over generations changed. And now it's primarily an immigrant neighborhood, mostly from central America. And there's a church there that's been there forever, but of course the population around it has changed. And so rather than say, you know, we welcome you. They had this big sort of fair and festival. They had a sign that said neighbors, welcoming neighbors. And I thought that was really beautiful. It's like, we're all neighbors here. Uh, and we welcome new neighbors that have come in, but none of us is superior to another and they're fully identifying with the person coming in. Right. We're no different, we're all neighbors. So I thought that was, and they did that very thoughtfully. They, it, wasn't just a, what can we call this? Or what can we say? They actually thought about the language and knowing that it matters that we can't treat people as perpetual guests,
Speaker 1 00:16:53 Right? There's a mutuality mm-hmm <affirmative> and an intentional mutuality there. Um, I don't know how much of this relates to your story, but in my mind, there's a connecting piece. And so I just wanna say again, that when I, when I read your last book in this book, one of the things that stood out to me in both places is how incredibly generous you have been with your story of immigration. Um, and also of your story since then. And so where I'm going with this is where you opened the book, right? Because I want to name that the language and the effects of the language are not benign. And you share part your story as an example of internalizing some of this problematic dehumanization that we have in this kind of binary, like native immigrant culture that we have in the us and, and unlocked parts of north America.
Speaker 1 00:18:09 Although I was thankful when you said that some of the Canadian language is better, <laugh> just across the board than it is in the states. But, um, you know, you opened the book with this and, and one of the things that stood out because I'm, uh, um, a mixed Hispanic woman, Mexican American heritage. And so when you opened with the, with the little, the, with the students, the little girls having Selena t-shirts, I was like, oh, this is my heart right here, but can you, can you share a little bit, even in that context of how you had internalized some of this, you know, I'm saying language, you may say it in a different way, but how you had internalized some of this and how it affected your own journey, um, after your immigration.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 Yes. Yes. I'm glad you asked about that. So I used to be a teacher that was my first career. And in my very first job was in a community where there were a lot of, um, Mexican and Mexican American students. And because Selena had recently died, Selena Quinan the singer. A lot of the girls in middle school wore these t-shirts that said, you know, we'll always, we'll always, I will never forget you, you know, you know, we'll always remember you and it was about Sina, but of course the school predominantly was, it was me and one other teacher in the whole school who were Latinas and she was Cuban American and I'm, you know, Guatemala and everybody in the school kept asking one of us <laugh> what are these woman? T-shirts like, what does this say? Uh, a lot of 'em didn't know, hadn't heard about, um, Selena didn't know who she was.
Speaker 2 00:19:57 And so I just said, oh, she's a singer. And would just kind of quickly move on because I didn't, I didn't want them to see me any differently. Cuz what I share in the book is I did not. Nobody told me, oh, you need to assimilate to us culture. But I internalized from everything around me that things went much smoother and were easier when I hid parts of myself, parts of my identity. So if I could, as much as possible speak English, talk about American cultural things. Um, that somehow that did make things easier for me. People didn't see me as much as an other. And so, but of, of course they did in part, right. Cause they were still asking me questions about it. And so what I tried to do as a teacher is, you know, I tried to distance myself from the kids cuz I, I wanted them.
Speaker 2 00:21:01 I thought it'd be good for all of us, not just for me, but for them too, to just be American when we're at the school and then be Mexican and you know, wear your Salinas shirt <laugh> and sing her songs and eat your food and everything. When you're home speak Spanish, when you're home, uh, nothing bothered people in that school, more than hearing the kids speak Spanish, even if it was on their own time, like in passing periods in the hallways. And I'm like, they're not in class it's so, you know, what is, what is the problem? But in general there was this negative attitude toward them. And so I wanted to distance myself from them and not be associated, um, because we looked the same right, where the same skin tone and we speak the same language and have similar names. And so, yeah, it's very interesting that I've seen that happen, not just to me, but to other immigrant children and not just, uh, Latinas, Latinos, it's all kinds of different immigrants experience this as well.
Speaker 2 00:22:07 That there's this point in which you are pressured by the culture to deny parts of who you are so that they're more comfortable. And part of that is the language, right? Part of that is this, the language contributes to your being and other, um, all the time, you know, people ask me all the time where I'm from and they don't ask white people that <laugh> generally right. Um, even though I speak English, American English perfectly well, they still see me as an other. Right. And so part of what I wanted to address in the book is the way that assimilating, forcing people to assimilate which people are, and this has happened historically in the us, um, is that it's extremely harmful. When you ask people to assimilate that you're asking them to give up language, culture, identity, and it's a loss when you consider something like, you know, my parents were pressured not to speak to us in Spanish.
Speaker 2 00:23:16 They didn't listen to that, but they were told that by teachers, what if they had listened? How would we have communicated with our own parents? If, if they <laugh>, if they didn't, you know, their heart language is Spanish, what would we have lost if our parents had listened to that and decided, you know what, we're just gonna speak to them in English only. And so, so that, so what I'm, what I talk about in that chapter is the way that, um, it, the only option is an assimilation. We can allow people to integrate and that is they keep their culture and they gain the American culture as well. And this is a win-win, uh, all around and there aren't any losses for the immigrant person. I mean, it's enough that you lost your country. <laugh> already right. And so, so that is another option. And I gave the example of, uh, Dr.
Speaker 2 00:24:13 Bennett Olu, you know, who was the doctor that exposed the concussions in, um, in American football or the NFL. And he really, because he wasn't caught up in American culture, he was not pressured to assimilate. He came to the us as an adult already. He didn't listen to people that said, oh, you can't challenge this. You know, football is kidding. You cannot, you know, come down on them in any way. And he just felt like, no, this isn't right. Something is wrong here. And we have to find out what it is and he exposed, uh, the problem that was happening, uh, with players constantly getting concussions and really also being dehumanized and discarded after they were no longer in their glory, days of production. Right. They were also being thrown away, uh, in their lives were no longer valuable if they weren't producing. So yeah, I think it's a, it's, it's complicated for sure. But what I wanted to offer in the book is that there's not just a problem assimilation, but there is a solution or a better answer and that's integration. And I wanted to show people what that can look like and how that can be a blessing to both the person, but also to the host country.
Speaker 1 00:25:42 Yeah. I, I really liked that, um, that, that, um, I'm, I'm losing the word here, but I like how you distinguished those, the assimilation of integration and then you, and then you pointed us to Moses story for a good example of integration, um, where he was a Hebrew and he was raised in Egyptian culture and remained a Hebrew during that time and, and really what that meant for him and for the future of his people in Moses' case, uh, to be able to be in that setting and not assimilate. I feel like this could be a whole other podcast about Joseph though. <laugh> yes. Who did assimilate into Egyptian culture and, and the, and the ways in which his life and lifestyle looked very different than Moses and, uh, life and lifestyle in the same country with the same heritage and in the same and in the same country.
Speaker 2 00:26:46 Yes. And, you know, I, I love parts of the story of Joseph. I think it's a very inspiring story, especially for people who are suffering and, or who have suffered, but there are aspects of his story. And I think we need to credit the Bible for giving us the whole truth. Even the parts that aren't pretty. And what we see in his story is that he was also responsible for the enslavement of not only his own people, the Hebrews, but also the Egyptians they gave up their land. They gave up their freedom. Everything was given to Pharaoh in exchange for food through all those years of famine that Joseph predicted and Joseph was the architect of this economic system of this food monopoly, essentially. And that many years later, God raised up another leader to free the people from this bondage. And so it's very complicated, right?
Speaker 2 00:27:48 Because there are, there are ways in which Joseph's story is understandable. He had suffered a lot and now he rose to prominence and power. And that period of his life was finally over, but he spent all his life in Egypt, you know, he was for all intents and purposes, he was an Egyptian person. And instead of questioning some of these decisions or thinking about, well, how can I be on the side of the common good that will, you know, benefit everyone, not just the people in power. He designed this whole system that really only benefited Pharaoh. Yes, the people were kept from starving, but in exchange for grain, they gave up everything they had. And so that ultimately was extremely harmful to everyone. But that's what happens when you assimilate is you also assimilate to systems of oppression. You suddenly don't have eyes to see anymore to see a part.
Speaker 2 00:28:53 And so Moses on the one hand is very interesting, right? Very different situation because he grew up in a lot of privilege, but was always aware he was a Hebrew and he sided with the Hebrew people now in ways that weren't always wise <laugh>. But, but, um, but there was something in him that, that let him see, no, I am a part of these people who are suffering, who are in bondage, right. And that sort of awareness and separation kept him from just assimilating to a system of oppression. And instead he was though chosen, right. God chose him to be the one who led the people out of it. He recognized, no, this is wrong. And you have to wonder, you know, Moses could have lived this life of total privilege. He could have been this wealthy person in Egypt who didn't have to worry about enslaved people because he wasn't enslaved. He was living in luxury. But instead he, he chose to oppose that, you know, he chose, no, this is wrong. And I can't, I can't be on the side of this. Right. Right.
Speaker 1 00:30:17 Yeah. And even though Moses, wasn't kind of how we would view it. Now, some of this, some of this, and I love how you, you, you pull us back in the book and, and, you know, say we have, we are looking at this through our lens of 21st century with borders and, and, and countries and politics and all of these things. And so we, so we might look back and say, Joseph, really like technically immigrated Moses mm-hmm <affirmative> was an outsider in a different way. You know, who's, he was born in Egypt, although born in a, into a marginalized and oppressed group and, and all this. And so there's, and so there's, there are differences there, but it, it brings me to think, yes, but Moses probably hacked off a lot of Egyptians. Right. He wasn't being a very good Egyptian <laugh> right. Yeah. And I think about that in our language today, you like, he would maybe, maybe there would be, people said, mm-hmm <affirmative>, he wasn't being a true American. Right. He wasn't being a very good, you know, he, wasn't being a very good American, um, that brings me, I mean, I could talk about Moses a gist all day. I really though want to hit on rehab a bit because this was my favorite chapter in the book and the, the, you know, I'm like, she, you kind of, if I'm not mistaken, you kind of introduce this rehab of like, in this context of, is she the right? The, the right kind? What, what's the right kind of immigrant, right?
Speaker 2 00:31:49 <laugh> yes.
Speaker 1 00:31:50 Rahab is not the right kind of people. Karen <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:31:54 Yes. He's not the right kind of person when you think about Hmm. If I could handpick the people to come be a part of my nation or my family, you wouldn't think, let me choose a deceitful sex worker to be that person <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:32:14 Yeah. Yeah. But man, this was incredible the way you unpacked rehab's story. So I'm, I'm just gonna like open that up and say, this is my favorite chapter. What would you like to share about, about rehab in that way? Yes. Cause there were like, so many of these, like I'm thinking of the emoji where you get the, the, the, yes. The mind blown, you know, I'm like, there were like, if I could just like have a little stamp, there were lots of places in the rehab chapter where I'm like, P like mind blown. So I can, I can't even, I can't even pick my favorites right now, but I'll just let you take rehab wherever you wanna, wherever you wanna take this. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:49 I think with rehab, one of the things that really struck me is that she it's, it, you know, the story is at the very beginning of the conquest of the promised land, you have the story of, of, you know, the people and Moses, and they're about to enter this land. And all of a sudden, the narrative stops to tell you the story of this sex worker. And you have to wonder why God thought it was just an important story to tell and why it's at the very beginning. And I personally think it's at the very beginning because God intends to be the God of all people, even someone like rehab, who not only did the Deuteronomy law, the law and Deuteronomy already indicated that people like her are foreign women should not be included. And essentially, you know, Canaanite, shouldn't be included, but somehow the spies in the Israelites with them, <laugh> disregard all of this because rehab turns out to be really helpful and to protect them.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 And you think about rehab. And what I wrote in the story is thinking about her story. Why would she choose to just betray her own people and choose to, uh, betray everything that she knows? And that's because she was already an outsider within her own community. She wasn't just an outsider to the Israelites, but also an outsider to her own people. She lived on the wall, literally on the margins, on the periphery. And, and so maybe casting her lot with them was important just for the survival of herself and her household. And this was what was most important to her. And when I think about immigrants, I mean to connect that back for me, it was, you know, there are people who are very firm with their ideas about who is the good kind of immigrant that we should have, right. They would never pick rehab.
Speaker 2 00:34:59 <laugh>, you know, they want somebody who is a software engineer and who applied for a visa and came into the us and has these, you know, high level skills. Um, that's the kind of immigrant that people want. And when you think about the immigration rights movement, even the people who are centered, it's always a family and people who are hard working and who are studying, and this is the first generation college student and looks she's at Harvard. And you know, all, these are the stories that are centered. You don't hear stories about just regular people living ordinary lives <laugh> and perhaps doing things that are really questionable, like the things that rehab did. And yet it seems like God is telling us that rehab is invited to be part of the family as well, that there's no moral standard of perfection that you have to reach before.
Speaker 2 00:35:56 You can be part of the family of God. And not only is she saved, but she marries. And her child <laugh> is in the lineage of Jesus. And it's just shocking. And, you know, over time, lots of the church fathers were deeply uncomfortable with rehab. They wanted to, they made her an Inkeeper. They made her like a, a land lady. <laugh> a business woman. They wanted to deny the fact that she was a sex worker, but the text is pretty clear on that. And the fact, the text even indicates that the spies themselves probably went there for her services. And we know that her name was not even rehab. That's a nickname, it's, it's a sexual pun because of her profession. And in the original Hebrew, that chapter is full of sexual puns. So really you have to be making quite a stretch to say she was not a sex worker.
Speaker 2 00:37:01 And this seems to not matter to God, and it didn't matter to God's people either, you know, she married in that community and became part of this tribe of Judah. Right. So I think too, I wonder if you know, Boaz who is became Ruth's husband. And he was, um, rehab's I think grandson, I wonder if he loved and cared for the immigrant Ruth, because his own family had an immigrant person, right. Someone who came in from the outside and became part of the family. And so, yeah, I think it's a really powerful story. It's beautiful. And it's, and it's, so it's very easy to overlook. It's like a little hidden gem for us in the text.
Speaker 1 00:37:55 Well, I think it's easy to overlook too, because it's, we don't wanna deal with the complexity of it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And so, um, you know, but I, I had had that thought a few years ago, I was reading through Ruth and I had that exact same thought of like, I wonder if Boaz, you know, he was not so far removed from this, right. That maybe it was the story of his grandparents who made him, you know, more, have more compassion or act in this way, you know, to share that love. Um, I wanna ask you, um, one more thing as we kind of start to wrap up a little bit, but the story of rehab is complex and you dedicate a chapter in this book to complex stories and specifically to the responsibility of ethical storytelling.
Speaker 2 00:38:54 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:38:57 That your words in that chapter were really powerful and impactful for me. And I think that this, again, even kind of goes, it goes back to the, to the subtitle of this book is that often Christians, we don't have a super great reputation heritage history for doing this well. Um, we have kind of maybe if we look at it in the best light, we've cut some corners sometimes because we, we think we, we want to do good work. And so we kind of cut some corners in this way. Um, and you know, to look at it in the, in the worst light, we've just, we've really not all the times out of malice, but have really hurt, um, people that we, um, are trying to help or claim that we're trying to help by our, um, indiscretion, uh, when and, um, yeah. And sometimes, um, dehumanizing and taking away the dignity of, of people. So thinking about rehab and her complex humanity, tell us a little bit about ethical storytelling.
Speaker 2 00:40:06 Yeah. So ethical storytelling is difficult. I'm gonna say that up front, but it's also really important. And I also wanna note that all of us have gotten it wrong at some point. And I include myself in that. I, I have done that as well, and it's, there's never, it's never too late to start getting it right. And so it's not, it's not about shaming people for what they have done in the past when they didn't know it's about what we can do moving forward with what we can control. And so it has to do really with honoring people's stories. Um, and so you may have been in a situation and maybe in a fundraising dinner, or maybe you're reading a newsletter from a ministry that you support and care about, and they'll share a story about a person in that ministry. And it's intended of course, to, to show you the effectiveness, right?
Speaker 2 00:41:03 How, um, the way that this ministry is working well, and it's not intended to just share a random story. So there's, there's never that. And often the intent is fundraising, as well as people connect very well to stories. And so they want you to connect to someone's story who was supported somehow by an organization or company or ministry. And so what happens is that sometimes there's not permission asked of the person, uh, and so the person doesn't know that their story is out there somewhere and somebody's sharing it to fundraise. Uh, sometimes the person gives permission, but only for it to be used maybe in the newsletter and not in a fundraising pitch, but it's used for everything. There's just considered that the consent they gave was just blanket. And, and sometimes it's more subtle than that. Sometimes a person's not allowed to tell their own story because maybe their English isn't perfect or maybe they're, um, not considered professional enough usually, um, to tell their own story.
Speaker 2 00:42:11 And so what happens is that then they lose their own story and it's being used by other people. Um, and this is problematic, right? Because inherently, what if we don't own our own story, what exactly belongs to us then? Right? Our, our story belongs to us. And so I share in, in the book about myself being a victim of this discovering, you know, my story, and it was an interpretation of my story that I didn't even agree with <laugh> or think was okay. But then that, I also did that when I, when I went overseas, I would share stories about students and other people that I knew. And somehow I thought that I was doing it differently or better, or, but really it was, it was essentially the same. And so part of honoring people's humanity and people's dignity, uh, part of loving our neighbors ourselves is would we want someone to just take our story and just put it out there and use it to fundraise and say, oh, you know, help for Alexis for 50 cents a day, you can support her and her whole family.
Speaker 2 00:43:21 We wouldn't probably like that. We wouldn't probably want someone to do that. The ends don't justify the means. And the fact is we don't have to do that is we can have people you can fundraise without, uh, without entering this unethical storytelling terrain. And you can also share stories appropriately. And I challenge people for example, to, to encourage ethical storytelling, by asking when someone shares a story, let's say, it's a fundraiser just asking, you know, so did they give consent for you to share this story and not in a combative way, but just in a way that also keeps them accountable for the stories that they're sharing and, and really it's an important part. Some stories have really sensitive things in them, you know? And so we shouldn't share them without making sure the person knows how the story's gonna be shared. I think about a fundraising dinner that I went to, where they were sharing the story of a, an immigrant woman who had been, uh, you know, was a survivor of sexual assault and experienced it in the borderlands and she was crossing.
Speaker 2 00:44:34 And, and I just remember thinking, I wonder if she knows the story's being shared here in this way, because they said, oh, she gave consent first to, to, you know, to use this story, but how to use in what way. And so, so it's important for us to honor people and do that. And I share examples of people who do that well, um, of some people that I have read who do that well, because it does make a difference also, um, if we are engaged in those people's lives, if there our stories intersect. And so they're my neighbors. So it's my story too. Or if it's just a story I'm grabbing onto so that I can use it for some purpose. And so I share the story of doc of, um, of, uh, homeboy industries and father Greg Boyle, and he doesn't share other people's stories.
Speaker 2 00:45:32 He shares his stories with the former gang members, formerly incarcerated people that are in his life. Those are his stories too. And they're written in mutuality. They're not written to elicit some sort of, um, you know, response from you. There's, this is just the truth of what happened, you know, uh, and he shares his mistakes as well. And the ways that he has failed all of it, I really appreciate because there's, there's mutuality, there's relationship and there's consent, and I've seen him speak a couple of times. And it's really interesting because he brings people with him, they share their own story. Um, he's not coercing them to do this, you know, so, so I really, yeah, I think there's a way to do it, right. And again, this isn't done to make people feel bad, but so that we can all be more conscious and change the way that we do that going forward.
Speaker 1 00:46:34 Yeah. I love one of the things that you pointed out in that chapter that was really, um, meaningful to me was the idea of, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of call it continued consent, but something that, because recognizing that our stories as humans and our experiences with our own stories are dynamic. And so we may, for example, give consent for someone to share something in a certain context, but then as we grow and learn and change, we may choose to take back that consent at some point or change how mm-hmm <affirmative> that is used and having those ongoing relationships like you talk about with, you know, with further boil it's it allows for that kind of, of dynamic relationship, even for someone with their own story, instead of just kind of being, you know, legalistic about it. Well, I have a paper that was signed back in oh five that says I could share this story.
Speaker 1 00:47:30 Well, you know, maybe that person doesn't want that story shared any anymore. You know, maybe they're at a different place in their healing where they would rather keep that, you know, close or, or whatever the case may be. And so I appreciated you bringing those kinds of things to light. Um, as we wrap up, Karen, what would you share with listeners with people who will read this book when it comes out in a month and on October 18th mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and even, you know, even as we started the podcast, thinking about Christians who are listening to and watching the news surrounding, um, immigration in our country, um, what would you share to us as an encouragement to center immigrant people in our response?
Speaker 2 00:48:15 Yeah, and I think the invitation is really just to think about, just to think about how we would want to be treated and welcomed, you know, it isn't out of, you know, it, isn't outrageous to, to consider what we would do. If we had to flee, let's say there was some kind of attack on the us and we had to flee, how would we want to be received? We, we, we, we want people to pity us to think of as having less than them in every way, or will we want people to recognize our humanity and to recognize that we are just like them, that we have this shared humanity. And I think that's where I want people to really, to really consider. Can we, can we do that for each other? Can we think about, um, our neighbors as ourselves, uh, like the Mayan saying you are my other self, right.
Speaker 2 00:49:26 Can we, can we live there and consider our neighbors the way we do ourselves? Would we want, what will we want for ourselves, for our own children, our parents, that is what immigrants want as well, uh, that same treatment. Um, and, you know, we opened talking about governor DeSantis and his decision to just ship people. And I heard an interview this morning on NPR, where a man was saying, you know, we're human beings. We're not paws. We're not <laugh> we're human beings and this was wrong. And it's, that should hit all of us. This idea that human beings were just taken and treated like they were nothing.
Speaker 1 00:50:14 Thank you so much, Karen, this is beyond welcome centering immigrants and our Christian response to immigration releasing October 18th, but I'm sure available for pre-order now. So I will link that in the show notes. Thank you again so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 00:50:35 Thank you, Alexis. It's been a great conversation.
Speaker 1 00:50:40 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music, and podcast production by Seth BTI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe your favorite podcast, listening app. You can also sense.
