Episode 254 - Brian Kaylor

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that makes total sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay, Brian, I have to admit that I have, as I often do, I kind of just tucked your book under my arm as I was going to various places over the past few weeks, and I felt super self conscious about it. So it's got this. The COVID has this, like, stained glass american flag and very bold. It's baptizing America. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. Like, I'm thinking, what are people thinking? They're probably not paying attention. That's the real truth. But I felt super self conscious about it. I probably shouldn't say this. We're joking. My husband and I are joking. I've got these new shoes for a certain class I like to do at the gym, and they were on sale, and the only color combination left are these. It's just red, white, and blue. And I call them my. I call them my trump shoes. [00:01:39] Speaker B: At least they're not gold. [00:01:41] Speaker A: I know this is. I think I bought them before the Trump shoes actually came out. But I'm like, I feel very maga when I wear these to the gym anyway. They're these red, white, and blue, and I'm not, you know, not like I'm saving them for patriotic holidays or something. They're just my Saturday shoes anyway. So I felt probably equally as self conscious toting around baptizing America with a stained glass american flag on the front. But thank you for writing it, even though I felt weird about reading it in public. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, thanks. Thanks for reading it in public or private. And thanks for having me on. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Okay, so this. You co wrote this book with Bo Underwood. Again, it's called baptizing how mainline Protestants helped build christian nationalism. And before we get started, hopefully we're going to cover a decent amount of ground today. But I'll just say what I was thinking, and probably part of the reason you wrote this book is that when those of us who are becoming more familiar with the phrase christian nationalism, we're understanding it to be the problem that it is, that it's not a new problem that, you know, came with. With Trump. But we. I think there are a lot of us, though, who kind of put the blame maybe on, would say this really is a problem of kind of right wing or super conservative or fundamentalist, white evangelical Christians in Texas, we might add, bless their hearts. You know, this is like, this is who kind of they, in quotes, this is who they are. These people are the perpetrators of christian nationalism. And your book, your in Beaus book gives more context for that, which is very, very helpful. I don't always love digging into the history. I'm not a huge history buff. But what I'm learning, and I kind of credit my husband with this to some degree because he calls it it's context. So the history helps us, helps us understand. And so part of what you and Beau have done in this book is say, like, yes, this is a thing now. Yes, you know, this, these, we are seeing this play out in this way that I just named, but this is not where it started. And there's kind of another population group who's been involved in this that we might not recognize, but they've done historically and present day, a lot of the same kinds of things. So we can't just kind of cast blame on this other group and say, ah, it's kind of their problem. It's like, well, it's really kind of an us problem. Is that semi kind of accurate? [00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I think that's fair. I mean, you know, it can be very cathartic to point at that group over there, the white evangelicals, and say, look what you all have done. This is all your fault. And there's plenty of blame to go there. And I've written plenty of things critiquing christian nationalism among trumpian evangelicals. At the same time, if we want to address a problem, we have to know how we got here. And so part of the story is the role that mainline Protestants helped. I mean, as we were writing for years about christian nationalism and its problems and looking at the, quote, evidence that those espousing christian nationalism point to, to say, see, we're supposed to be a christian nation. You know, whether it be the David Bartons or the Tony Perkins or the Mike Johnsons of the world, all the things that they point to are things that mainline Protestants put into place. And then now it helps empower the white evangelical political movement. And so if we really want to make a difference, we need to figure out how we got into this mess in the first place. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I have in all caps because I just, on my note sheet here, I just kept thinking, man, they have receipts. You guys have receipts for this. And it is, as you say, you look back and you go, dang, is that what, is that how we got here? Is that. Did that really happen? Is that what that is? And then, you know, and then you fill in the blank. I mean, it's not, you know, I probably should insert this. Now, this is how you guys in the book recognizing that this is a contrarian text, but you're not being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. It's saying, let's, you know, let's work together. Let's examine what we've, what we've done collectively. Let's course correct. So it's a positive thing. But I'm looking and I'm going, oh, anytime I read the receipt, it's so and so, an episcopalian minister, so and so, a PC USA pastor, so and so, a UMC, you know, whatever he is. And I'm like, man, this is, you know, over and over and over again. And Will Willeman, uh, wrote one of the endorsements for the book, and paraphrasing, admittedly, he kind of says, oh, crap, it's me. [00:06:52] Speaker B: I love that one. [00:06:53] Speaker A: It's the tailor. Oh, I'm the problem. It's, it's me, you know, and I think that that's a humorous thing, but I really respect Doctor Williman, but that's kind of going, oh, we see this now, kind of when it comes maybe coming to a head and we go, oh, how did we get there? Oh, crap. Now we have to look back and actually take responsibility for some of the things that we put in place. [00:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate and love how you're having that response and reading through the book, because that's how we were, as we were kind of collecting examples of like, oh, my goodness. And then we knew there was enough to write a book and we started writing, but then it was so much more, so much worse than we expected by the time we dug in. And it was just amazing, time after time. Not just that you have these kind of moderate to progressive mainline protestant clergy and politicians that are implementing christian nationalism, particularly in the fifties and sixties, but then also what they were saying about it, they're just so open about it. When you actually go and look at the text, it's like, oh, they really just want us to be a christian nation, only they want to be a christian nation where they're in charge. And whereas white evangelicals day, when they want a christian nation, they want them to be in charge, which is something we always see in christian nationalism. It doesn't mean all christians are in charge. It's always just for a narrow slice of Christianity. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I am getting ahead of myself. Flipping is something, an example that I want to get to, but I'm going to pause and ask just briefly, and I'm actually going to put in the show notes a few episodes that I've done already on christian nationalism. So they were specifically on that definitions and things like that so that folks can go if they want more. Andrew Whitehead is one of those. He and Samuel Perry are kind of some of the big sociologists in this space. But can you just briefly help us understand this definition so that in this conversation, we're all on the same page when we're talking about what is christian nationalism? Because I still see and hear folks referring to christian nationalism and kind of the, you know, what's wrong with this? Or pointing at something, maybe quote on the left or in a progressive and saying, see, that's christian nationalism with a different conversation than the one we're going to have today. And I think that it's because there's still confusion as to what we mean or what scholars mean or sociologists mean when they are saying christian nationalism. This isn't equated with patriotism. This isn't the same thing. If you put your, you know, your hand on your heart when you start spinning old banner comes on at a game or something, doesn't make you a christian nationalist. And I would even say, sorry, this is going on longer than I wanted. I even say, I like Perry and Whitehead saying they're hesitant to even call a person a christian nationalist. Right. They have some of that nuance there that I think is really important. But help us so that we're on the same page in this conversation. Understand what we mean when we talk about christian nationalism. What is it? [00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it is always important to make sure we have our definitions and, you know, yeah, we rely heavily on Whitehead and Perry and their definitions and their sociological research. And I think it's important also to recognize, and then I'll get to a more specific definition, is, you know, they're not calling people christian nationalists or not because they have it as a continuum. And that's also important to note that, you know, it's not that you're either. You're either christian nationalists or you're not. And so that when they do their research, they're asking a bunch of questions and then seeing how you score. So somebody might score 100% and hit check all the boxes. They really christian nationalism. And. But most people are going to get several of the answers or a few of the answers. Right. And that continuum is really important. And I think it's particularly important to remember that for those of us who grew up in white christian churches in the United States, christian nationalism was just in the air that we breathe. And so we really do all have a little bit of christian nationalism that we were raised in. It just felt normal. And so now it's that work of detoxing and separating out the wheat from the chaff. And so that's really significant. And so perhaps the simplest, easiest way to think about christian nationalism and how nationalism is different than patriotism is that, you know, christian nationalism is. This is an ideology that it fuses. And I would say it confuses american and christian identities. And so it treats them as if they're one and the same, that to be a good American, one has to be a good Christian, and they mean a specific type of christian, like they define themselves. And sometimes even the flip that you almost even have to be. To be a good Christian, you have to be a good American or at least pro America. Right? And so that's the problem there is. It's taking two different ideologies, two different citizenships, and pretending that they're one, and that doesn't work. And so that is different than patriotism. Patriotism is, I'm, you know, I'm proud of my nation, or I'm happy I didn't choose to be born here, but I'm glad that I was born in America. And the freedoms that I get, you can cherish all of that. That's different than nationalism, where you now say, and our nation is better than all the others, and christian nationalism and that God uniquely blesses and loves us more than any other nation, that's really dangerous to take this global faith and to start to define it by man made, human made boundaries and borders. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Yes, thank you for that. I also. It's that. And then with the global faith aspect, I think is so important. I love how you guys talk about that when we get to flags and sanctuaries. So let's put a pin there because I want to come back to that. But I also think that and maybe something that I might add is, and help correct my language here, but also part of what christian nationalism does besides kind of shrinking maybe the global faith to kind of this american centered faith, is it also shrinks like americanism to like christian Americanism. So we might say we have freedom for all religions in America, and this is something that we cherish for everybody to have the right to worship, however he or she chooses to worship or to not worship, to abstain from that. And this is one of the beauties of living in America. It's also what affords me as a christian the ability to do the same thing. I think that I've read that something that christian nationalism does is actually wants to kind of, maybe shrink isn't the right word, but shrink that, too. To say, we want America, Americans to be defined by worshiping in this way or experiencing faith in this way, the, in God we trust, you know, these kinds of things. Like, can you help, like help me say accurately kind of what I'm trying to add there, if that's, if that's appropriate. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Let's take one of the examples. And honestly, I think this is my favorite example. Favorite, I guess worst example. I don't know. The example of best help shows the problem here. Christian nationalism. And we're at the 70th anniversary, June 14, flag day. In 1954, Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the congressional pass legislation adding under God into the pledge of allegiance. So when the pledge of allegiance had originally been written several decades before that God was left out of it, it's generally attributed to have been written by a baptist minister who left God out of it. He was also a socialist, and so we don't always put those two terms together today, but he was an admitted baptist socialist and left God out of the pledge. And it sits that way for a few decades. And then there's a sermon. I mean, this is what's so crazy about this. We know why under God is in the pledge of allegiance, and it's because of one sermon. I've been a pastor before and I still get to preach from time to time. And, I mean, I would love to have a sermon that's remembered like a month later. [00:15:25] Speaker A: I mean, let alone, I mean, on Monday. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Right. And then, like, so, I mean, props to it clearly was a powerful sermon. So he knows that Dwight D. Eisenhower is going to be sitting in the church on the Sunday closest to Lincoln's birthday, because Lincoln had attended this presbyterian church in DC at New York Avenue, and so presidents would sometimes come on that day. So he knows Eisenhower is coming, and so he decides to, to write essentially a sermon to one person, which isn't necessarily the best pastoral practice, but it's a case for why God needs to be put in the pledge of allegiance. And, I mean, christian nationalism wasn't a term that was being used by scholars at the time, but if someone preached that sermon today, we would call it christian nationalism. So we should be consistent. If it's christian nationalism day, it was christian nationalism then, because he's making the argument that America was founded as a christian nation, that the american way of life is based on the Ten Commandments and the words of Jesus. So he's defining America in christian terms. But the reason why I think this one is really a significant example is because he then also says the quiet part out loud. So to get you to your question about, like, how this can be dangerous, is that he acknowledges suddenly in the sermon that, okay, so there's some people that might not be able to say under God at, while they're pledging allegiance because they're atheistic, which at that time was. Was only a couple of percent of Americans who were admittedly atheist pollsters. The number was probably higher, but that was the only percent that would admit it. And so he says in the sermon, philosophically speaking, an atheistic American is a contradiction in terms. And then he adds that they really are spiritual parasites. Right? And so what he's saying is, if you're an atheist, you cannot be a real american. And in fact, it's not just that you're not a real american, you're a parasite. You're living off of this land and giving nothing back to it, right? So he is civically excommunicating at that point, a couple percent of American now quite a bit more of Americans, by putting under God into the pledge of allegiance. And so that was a christian nationalistic effort to do that. But more importantly, it gets to exactly what you're asking about. Like, so it's defining Americanism as christian Americanism. And that's. I mean, that's, that's. That's christian nationalism. That's not, you know, a nation for all people. It doesn't work in a pluralistic society. It doesn't work as a democracy because you're, you're specifically saying some people don't count as full citizens simply because of what they believe religiously. [00:18:06] Speaker A: I mean, I just think that when I, when I read that, I just thought, this blows my mind. I can't fathom. I mean, I can't fathom someone. And I always, I always do this to myself. I finished reading the book the day of the interview, so I have not processed, like I should have processed before I get in front of a mic with the author. [00:18:30] Speaker B: So you're still suffering PTSD. [00:18:33] Speaker A: But I just think, like, how could I? I couldn't take, I can't imagine taking a pastor seriously today who is calling my atheist neighbor a spiritual parasite in this country. Like, it just completely blows my mind. And yet we have the phrase added to the pledge and all of the, I would say, maybe support and controversies that have come in the decades since then. And this kind of pinpoint here of, again, this phrase who, as you say, was not even in the original pledge written by a baptist socialist pastor. Okay. But that this becomes a kind of christian nationalist litmus test. Are you, I mean, first of all, you have to be willing to say the pledge of allegiance. And then if you're saying it, it is just assumed that you had better say the under God part. And if you're not saying something like this, then there's something wrong with you. You're un american. You're all of these things. This is jogging my memory. Was there something with the DNC on this? The democratic national Committee is. [00:19:54] Speaker B: That's right. There was a couple of, during the 2020, we mentioned this was a couple of virtual caucuses because they were all virtual. A couple small caucuses that left under God out. And one of them was the muslim and muslim ally caucus. Right. So religiously, you know, different perspective. And that caused a bunch of controversy. Donald Trump was attacking Biden for supposedly leaving it out. Now, the actual official evenings with Biden, including the one when he spoke, included under God. The night that he accepted the nomination, his grandkids actually said the pledge of under God. And Biden himself actually quoted under God in his remarks. Right. But that, just the fact that, like, there was even a, an ability to make up a bit of a controversy gets exactly your point. If a politician were today to go and say the pledge of allegiance and leave under God out, I mean, they would not be, you know, viable for national office. Yeah, I guess I'll never run. [00:20:44] Speaker A: So it's wild, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's a wild, it's a wild thing. And, you know, I think that, I don't know, this part of, the, part of what I just keep, what keeps going through my head is, as you say, the experiences many of us had growing up, being raised in just, you know, evangelical churches. I was raised, Southern Baptist convention in, you know, back then, we proudly said in the buckle of the Bible belt, you know, so southern Oklahoma, the town I was raised in had like 25,000 people at the time or something. But it was the town, I mean, we had a Walmart, you know, everywhere, everywhere around us was, you know, lots of farmland and things like that. So it was somewhat rural. And I said the pledge of allegiance every summer in vacation Bible school, I pledged allegiance to the christian flag. We may or may not go there. And there was both. They were both present in the sanctuary in the church that I grew up in. At the same time, though, I often say I was youth grouped in kind of white evangelicalism, but I wasn't raised that way by my parents. And one of the things, we had lots of political discussions at home, and I remember in high school and college, there was, it seems like this, it's a perennial debate on prayer in schools, things like this. And I remember that it was very out of vogue for me to be a Christian, especially at an SBC church. But it would probably have been similar in mainlines, as we're having this discussion to be opposed to the idea of prayer in schools. But this was another topic that came up that I was like, listen, this was not the SBC folks who were pushing this. This agenda at the beginning, and yet it's kind of what we see now. So that's, like another example that was really curious to me. I may be conflating two things. Is that also what Mike Johnson was with the in God we trust in the back? Is that the same story you're with, or same thing? [00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the story. But I think they're very much related, and they're coming from the same time period. And so this part isn't in the book, but you're right. So when the school prayer decision happened in 19, we had a couple different decisions of Bible reading and school prayer in 62 and 63. Those are the decisions that are awful that said that, you know, God was kicked out of public schools, right? As if. As if our God is so small that God can be kicked out of public schools by nine people in black robes. But the SBC actually did not oppose the decision. Largely the president of the Southern Baptist convention at the time, Herschel Hobbes Oklahoman, actually praised the Supreme Court decision when they ruled against compulsory government prayers in public schools, because that was a historic Baptist position. I also grew up Southern Baptist, and, in fact. So the publication that I lead Warden away is a historic Baptist publication. And I've actually gone back and looked at our editorials at the time of those Supreme Court decisions, and our editors were praising the decision, saying, this is correct. But the people who were upset about the decision were the mainline Protestants. So then we flipped in some ways. So now it's the Southern Baptists and evangelicals that want to put prayer back in public schools. But it was the mainline Protestants who criticized the decision and put it there in the first place, that wrote the prayer in New York, that led, that led to the Supreme Court decision and that were praising it when it was, when it was announced, including the man who would later become Donald Trump's pastor. Because Donald Trump is, despite all the tension we get with him about evangelicals, he's actually a protestant, a mainline protestant product. And so, yeah, it's really fascinating when you look at that story and think, well, wow. I mean, it is christian nationalism to push for it, but the people pushing it for day are not the ones that actually created the problem in the first place. And, yeah, and then the Mike Johnson one is also, I think it's the last thing that makes it in the book because we were supposed to be turning in a manuscript already. And he gets elected speaker of the House. And in his election remarks, he points to the gold letters in the house chamber above him that's saying God we trust. And then he also, his first photo, his first image post he put on social media was just in God we trust. He put that on Twitter and Facebook, just a picture without any commentary of those gold letters. And so I immediately thought, well, how did those, by that point, right, we're finishing up the book. I'm like, well, how did the, how did those get there? And I kind of had a, had a hint that maybe it might be mainline Protestants, and it was, it was mainline Protestants who tore down some, some gold stars. Uh, and this is where it is related to the prayer decision, is that it was in response to the Supreme Court decision. Right? So they're upset that the Supreme Court has thrown out compulsory government prayers. And so they said, well, we can rebut them. We'll put God and gold letters here in the house chamber. So take that. Right? And again, it was the mainline protestant tradition that did that, in this case, the politicians, whereas the clergy had actually written the prayer. And so it is wild. I mean, that we are living in the religious political timeline that mainline Protestants built and that moderate to progressive clergy. I mean, the guy who preached the under God in the pledge sermon later marched with Martin Luther King Junior. He protested the Vietnam war. I mean, he is a progressive presbyterian church USA pastor. He just also wanted us to be a progressive christian nation. And so, you know, the sides have flipped a lot. And there's a lot of mainline Protestants that think the problem is trumpian evangelicals. And we need to do some reckoning in our own churches and in our own denominations and traditions to, you know, some acts of repentance. And then also some work of detoxing christian nationalism that's still found in mainline protestant churches today. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Brian, I want to go there. I want to go where you and your co author took us at the very beginning of the book. So the first place I hauled this was to our local pool. And I'm sitting there reading it, and I just look over at my husband, I'm like. I just laughed, and I was like, oh, this is gonna be a good one, because I won't spoil it all, but I wanna say, because you're right. And I think that when we're looking out for christian nationalism, we're looking out for those things that Perry and Whitehead have kind of taught us to tune into in the questions that they ask. It is very easy for me, as someone who was brought up SBC. I spent some time in conservative, charismatic circles and things like that, and it is very easy for me to point and say, yep, look what they are doing. This is very, very easy for me. What is harder is for me to see people that I might consider, like, I might feel a little bit more kinship with these days in my theological journey and or politically, you know, look at these certain people and go, yeah, I really love the work she's doing, or he's, you know, he's got it, you know, on these issues in places where I would want someone to be. And then when they do something that ticks the boxes, it is harder for me to say, yeah, there it is. I can recognize it in those actions as well. And you guys did that, I would say, is easier for us to see in January 6, 2021. And then you guys did that in some commemoration services after that. So whatever you want to say about kind of how you open the book. Yeah. [00:29:18] Speaker B: So, yeah, there's a lot of books on christian nationalism coming out, and because they're all about christian nationalism and evangelicals, ours is the one coming out on christian nationalism. Mainland Protestants. And honestly, a lot of them start on January 6, 2021, with the insurrection, which is, you know, it's a textbook example of the danger of christian nationalism, particularly the danger to democracy, though it's also a heresy. So it's a danger to our faith. So we open the book a year later with a preacher standing on the steps of the US Capitol, praying for America to be one nation under God, and politicians and others singing christian hymns suggesting that God supported them against their political opponents. But it is January 6, 2022, and it's the. It's supposed to be the service of remembrance and reflection of, you know, of response and. Right. And so it's, it's pretty much all Democrats that have shown up because by this point, a lot of Republicans have taken the, it was just a tourist visit, you know, type of thing, which I have visited the Capitol a number of times. And im really glad that none of my tourist visits look like January 6, 2021. So I watched the service. I knew it was going to happen. Prayer vigil organized by then speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. And so I opened up C SPAN because im a nerd and thought id watch it. And I honestly expected it to be some long, drawn out interfaith effort, and it lasted eight minutes. And it was just Christians that led this entire service. And so the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, Michael Curry, who is a progressive individual and someone who has spoken out against christian nationalism a lot. Right. And that's why I think is really significant about this example. It shows that even those of us who recognize that christian nationalism is a threat and is a problem can also inadvertently find ourselves espousing and advancing christian nationalism. Right. And so, you know, he is, he is not a christian nationalist. Right. If we were to put him on that continuum, he would be pretty far. And yet there he is, praying on behalf of Congress and the members of Congress and calling for us to be one nation under God, asking God to make them the democracy that God would have us to be. Right. And he's praying on behalf of some members of Congress who aren't christian, who don't actually share his faith tradition. They sing my country. Tis a vis, they sing God bless America. These are right there in the patriotic hymn section of our, of our hymnals in churches in evangelical and mainland protestant churches, and they have a moment of silence led by a christian politician. And that's it. That's the whole service. As we know in the book, if Speaker Mike Johnson had called this event and Sean Foyt had sung those hymns and Paula White Kane had offered that prayer, that we be one nation under God, I mean, we hear the announcements across the board about, this is christian nationalism. It's dangerous, it's inappropriate, and it would all be justified. And yet it actually did happen. But it wasn't those three. It was Nancy Pelosi and Presiding Bishop Michael Curry and a member of the Marine band that was singing. That's who gave us this christian nationalist moment. So January 6, 2021, shows us the dangerous depth of christian nationalism, particularly on the right. January 6, 2022, shows us the dangerous breadth of christian nationalism, that it goes across the political and religious spectrums say more about that. Yeah. And so, I mean, as I said earlier in our conversation, if you grew up on a white christian church, christian nationalism was just in the air you breathe. And so I think January 6, 2022, helps us to see that, that you have progressive Democrats, mainline Protestants, a Catholic with Nancy Pelosi that are engaging christian nationalism. And they seem to think, the framing of the service seemed to think the response was this, oh, what we need in response to the dangerous christian nationalism fueled insurrection is just a nicer, cuddly or friendlier version of christian nationalism. Right. We just need, you know, prayers where people aren't also breaking the windows. Right. Without recognizing the problem was christian nationalism. And not that we just need a friendlier version or a more liberal version. And so our definition of christian nationalism can't just be, you know, religious christian nationalism in the public square by those that we politically disagree with. It can't just be when the other side does, it's christian nationalism. And when we do it, it's, you know, just us living out our faith. Right. Got to have some consistency here. And so we're willing to name christian nationalism wherever it hits. I mean, we joked a lot of times as writing the book that we were going to make all of our friends angry because we were, you know, noting their own christian nationalism. And, I mean, my personal, just because this is my personality, one of my personal favorite moments is when we criticize the publisher of our own book for publishing a christian nationalism, you know, in the past. So, you know, we're an equal opportunity offender. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Well, one of the things that you, that you brought out, and I would say this is, I have, again, I had kind of this, there was incongruency, I think, you know, for me, I had a lot of these experiences where I'm like, I am opposed to this, but the people around me aren't. Or we're having these conversations at home, and it looks very different than what's happening in our church communities or something like this. And there's a moment, I don't remember what the context is. And you close one of the chapters, but it's basically like if a Martian were watching this service. And I had thought about that because we'll just take myself back to vacation. Bible school is kind of an easy thing to pick on because this was in the eighties, and we, you know, it was very sweet. It was a lot of very sweet times. And at the same time, it wasn't anything that was different necessarily or in opposition to what was happening kind of throughout the year. Or just in a generic Sunday service. And this isn't me picking on the church I grew up in. This looked the same as every other neighborhood church, mainline and evangelical, in, in my town. And I would, I would dare to say in much of the United States. But you've got situations where, you know, it's like, it doesn't feel weird when you're living in it, but would it feel strange? And I would say, maybe not even to a Martian. Would this. We have people coming in from different countries, Christians coming in from different countries, going, why do you have an american flag next to the pulpit? Or ours was in the choir loft. In vacation Bible school, we actually had flag bearers who would hold the flags and march down the center aisle to kick off our mornings. Every morning in vacation Bible school, we would say the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States. We also set it to the christian flag. Thank you for the history of that in this book. And it's one of those things where you go, okay, like, yes, I grew up this way, but then, now as a grown up, I'm kind of looking back and going, wait a minute, what was I experiencing? And what am I experiencing? And I think at this point, I also want to say that these things that you're mentioning, we just talked about this with, with January 6, 2022, that it is, as you say, this isn't just historical. We can look back to see where we came from. This is something that is still in existence very much today. You can go any you guys name this, you can go in any mainline or evangelical church, open up the hymnal. If they still have them, let's just say that they still have hymnal and they're few. If they still have a few and open it up. And the most recent ones that were published, at least we could say this, still contain these patriotic hymns that are expected to be sung in a church worship service. And this is one of those things where I go, okay, if a Martian came down and looked at this, what, what would they be thinking? What would they be trying to figure out? What are we doing? This feels normal to us. But is this really kind of, quote, normal? [00:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. The martian test is, I think, is an important example. Is that idea of trying to clean slate. Right? Not just what you grew up with, not just what seems normal, but if they walked in, what would they get particularly, like? Think about, like, if they walked in and that service closest to the 4 July coming up very soon, and they watched the service with no understanding about anything. They just showed up for the first time. And I like to imagine Marvin the Martian, but it can be any, any Martian there. And what would they get? And I like, you know, I think for most times they would get the fact that, oh, there's this Jesus, you know, figure they would get that from our services. But I think they would also think that we worship this thing called America, especially on those Sundays, right, because we have the flag there, we're singing the songs. I mean, as you know, do we go through the various hymnals of, you know, from, from very conservative to very liberal denominations. They're all in there. And it's not just the, like, God bless America and America the beautiful, which are, you know, they have that christian nationalism in there, but they were perhaps not as strong. But, you know, the national anthem put in hymnals, hundreds of hymnals, or the battle hymn of the republic, which actually even conflates dying for country with dying for Jesus, right, or dying, or Jesus death. It's as if it's a salvific act, right. Particularly dangerous, you know, grotesque christian nationalism. And then when you. And here's why it matters, right, because Martian is telling us, the Martian is recognizing that we seem to be worshipping a couple of different entities. We're worshipping this Jesus. We're also worshipping this America. But Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters. And he said that if you. If you think you're serving two masters, right, there's going to come a moment where they're in conflict, and that's when you're going to prove which one you actually serve. And we're actually already doing that because I assume your vacation Bible school in a southern Baptist church was like my vacation Bible school in a southern Baptist church. We merged in the american flag first. [00:39:54] Speaker A: Thank you. Yes. [00:39:56] Speaker B: We set the pledge of allegiance to the american flag first. And when it's sitting in the church, and it's in most churches today, uh, it's sitting in what the us flag cold calls the, the place of preeminence. So if it's up on the stage, it's to the right of the preacher or, you know, whether next to the pulpit or up in the choir law. And the christian flag, if it's there, is to the left, and you flip those if they're on the ground level with the congregation. So what we're already saying, according to us flag code, is that the us flag is first. This is our first allegiance, and the christian flag is our second allegiance. So this isn't a two kingdoms theology where we're equal citizens and two equal citizens. No, we're actually saying we pledge allegiance first and foremost here. And then we also have this secondary allegiance, but that doesn't work. I mean, the word allegiance, it comes from the French. It means what we owe to our lord. Liege is the french word for Lord. You cannot serve two lords. Right? I mean, this is why. Maybe I have too much minute. I didn't mean. But I actually don't say the pledge of allegiance at all. Forget the under God part. It's because of that understanding of allegiance to a lord or what we owe to our liege. And so we can only serve one master. We can only serve one lord. And so I can be patriotic, but I can't give allegiance to anything or anyone other than Jesus. And so that's really dangerous then. And we're shaping ourselves. We're teaching this theology subtly, quietly, for generations upon generations, teaching american Christians that to be a Christian is to be an American, and that you have to pledge allegiance to America first and foremost. And that's dangerous. And we saw some of that on January 6. We see it in a lot of other ways as well. [00:41:51] Speaker A: So, admittedly contrarian, equal opportunity offenders, I'm into all that. But now it's like, now that we're starting to see these things that we've been swimming in for all of these decades, and this is kind of where you guys land, what do we do? I mean, how do we move forward? There are people listening to this who are laypeople. There are people listening to this who might be clergy. There are people listening to this who might be involved in seminary or maybe other, you know, educational institutions. But how. How do we. Yeah, how do we move forward now? Gaining a better understanding for some of this context. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that question. You know, our last chapter is really focused on, like, what to do, because we don't want this to just be an educational experience. I mean, it's important to know how christian nationalism got here. It's important to understand what it looks like and how it shows up in a lot of different ways. But then also, it's like, all right, what can we do about it now? And so, I mean, honestly, the first step is look at your own context, learn your own church, because, I mean, it can be cathartic to just, you know, shout and yell at the, you know, Greg Lotz and the Robert Jeffresses and the Franklin Graham's and all of those out there, and it's cathartic, and they're not listening to us. We might feel better, but we're not actually reducing christian nationalism in our country, but what can we actually do in the church that we are part of? Is there a flag in the sanctuary? And we talk about some ways. I mean, don't just go take it out. It needs to be a conversation, right, because pastors have lost their jobs by just removing it. So how do we build the theological foundation for people to understand that this isn't just the way it was? The flag hasn't always been there, particularly if you go to an older church. I mean, the flag probably came in the last century. And so world War one in some contexts, World War two for most churches, it's not something that's part of even historic american Christianity, let alone global Christianity. I mean, and as you noted, the Martian would be confused. But yeah, Christians from other countries are often very surprised to find a national flag in the sanctuary, because it's not. I've been to a lot of churches in a lot of countries, and I've seen a couple of examples, but it's very rare to see another nation's flag in the sanctuary, in the holy space. And so how do you have that conversation? Build that theological foundation to move a congregation forward, whether you're the pastor or you're a Sunday school teacher, a lay leader, to do your part, to do your part in your own church and your own denomination, your own faith tradition. What we think is that if you start in those places, we can actually detox from christian nationalism. We can actually reduce the amount of christian nationalism by working in the spaces where it's actually fertile soil, or we can actually get something done. And so it's not as cathartic, it's a lot harder work. It might make some of your friends and family mad, but, like, this is where we can actually make a difference. To get back to the idea of what does it mean to actually say Jesus is Lord and that means that Caesar is not, or that Biden is not, or that Trump is not right, that Jesus is Lord. What does that look like? And how does that impact our faith and the way we act in the public sphere? [00:45:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's. I think that that's, that's good advice for so many things. Right. I mean, it, like I said, for me, it's easier to point a finger and say, ha, look what, you know, look what you did. But, yeah, but, you know, how are we interacting? How are we doing things in our, in our context, in our congregation? What conversations are we having? How are we, and I think even, you know, just personally, how is it inadvertently kind of coming out, as you, as you mentioned before, you know, especially with the example of Michael Curry? You know, he doesn't, on the spectrum. He's a low end guy, and yet, you know, here he is, you know, with, with some of these examples. Gosh, I am really grateful for this conversation. And I think, I guess I want to ask, sometimes I ask this question, it feels a little bit appropriate now because I was a little bit overwhelmed by the receipts, so I was processing quite a bit. I mentioned that. So what I would say to you is, you literally wrote the book on this. So what question today did I not ask? Where did, where would you have wanted to go? And you thought, oh, if she would just, if she would just mention this, I would, I would say that. Or what would you like or what would you want to leave folks with if that first part doesn't hit? [00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think we hit some really good, some good ground. And it's always fun to kind of see what examples, you know, someone brings up. And, but I think maybe the note that I just would want to end on is that, you know, this isn't, this doesnt have to be a partisan thing or a political thing. And thats whats happening with christian nationalism. We started the conversation defining christian nationalism. One of the reasons why theres some confusion is because theres some deliberate attempts to redefine christian nationalism. Right. Theres some deliberate attempts by people who espouse christian nationalism that recognize that the label is not popular. So they want to either redefine it or they want to say it doesnt actually exist. Its just a partisan attack. And I think that that's, we're in a incredibly polarizing election year. We're going to see more of that. And so everything is getting read through that kind of polarized lens. You're either, I'm sure even the people listening to me is like, all right, so he's supporting this candidate or supporting that candidate. Right. And so, I mean, it's very easy to see. And what we want to call people to, is to say that christian nationalism is a heresy. I mean, it's a threat to democracy. That's one danger. We've talked about that. We saw that on January 6. But as, as christian ministers, we're even more concerned with the fact that it is a threat, is a heresy. It's a threat to the faith. It's why we, and we explain this in the book, why we capitalize the nationalism. We write christian nationalism different than most people most, most of the scholars and journalists who are writing about christian nationalism capitalize christian and lowercase nationalism. And I get that. We make the argument that it's a faith, it's a competing religion, and we capitalize religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, whatever it might be. We capitalize religion. So we capitalize christian nationalism as a way of saying this is not christian. It fundamentally denies and rejects core basic christian doctrines and teachings. And that's why we need to address this. Like, that's what I want christians to see about christian nationalism is that it's not just that it's problematic politically, and it's not just that it's messy or whatever. It's that it actually takes us away from the red letters of Jesus. This is a global faith that we are, that God loves all people, died for all people, and has called us to love all people. Nationalism of any type, but christian nationalism also. It fuels war. It gets us excited. We rally around the flag, and we're ready to go kill those people on the other side of the border, even if they might be christian. Right. And Jesus has called us to a different way. And that's what we want people to do, to recognize what is Americanism, what is christian, what is christian nationalism versus what is christian. And that's what I hope people will take from the book more than anything. I hope you learn a lot, but then I hope you're also ready to like, all right, I want to be more christian and less christian nationalist. [00:50:26] Speaker A: Amazing. Brian, thank you so much. I want to say again, baptizing America. Take it where you want, people. Take it where you want. I, you know, put it under your arm, read in public. It's great. Baptizing America, how mainline Protestants helped build christian nationalism by Brian Kaler and beau Underwood. This has been my time with Brian Kaler. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us today. [00:50:51] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. It's been all my pleasure. [00:50:54] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at thatmixtototototototalk.