Episode 345 - Kristen Lee

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. So I am super stoked right now to have Kristen Lee with me today on the podcast. I felt. Kristen, I felt really comfortable meeting you today in my hoodie and my messy bun. I am fighting off a cold, but from reading your story, from reading your book, I really, honestly, we don't know each other, but I just felt like so much graciousness in your writings that I was like, she'll be fine if I show up like this. So here we are. Here I am. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. And I'm absolutely in support of hoodies and sweatpants. [00:01:26] Speaker A: We're here. This is how we are today. I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Kristin on today. I finished her book last week. It's called We Mend with An Immigrant Daughter's Reckoning with American Christianity. And, Kristin, I feel like, honestly, every chapter of this book could be its own podcast episode. As a student, I feel like, you know, of theology and of culture. I feel like each chapter could be its own, you know, journal article, research paper, its own book in and of itself. And for that, I'm grateful, because what I'm trying to say is you bring in so many aspects, not only of your story, but of theology, of culture, of church, of what it means to navigate these things in our context and specifically in your Asian American context. So I know we'll get into some of these more individual topics, but I'm wondering at the beginning if you could just share kind of like what. What was. What was going through your. Your head when you were like, I need to write a book that looks like this. And maybe what were you hoping for Your readers, both readers like me who are not Asian American, but also readers like your friends and community members, family members who would read this. And for them, it means something very different personally. [00:03:00] Speaker B: For them, absolutely. So this book was really born out of over a decade of kind of wandering in the wilderness, is how I would put it, of feeling like I didn't quite fit in with the American Evangelical church of my childhood, but not wanting to turn away from Jesus because I saw Jesus. I love Jesus. There's something compelling to me about that and about him and. But I didn't really have any other models for how to follow Jesus other than kind of a very narrow box that I was given as I was being raised in both the Chinese immigrant church and in the American Evangelical church. And so I felt very lonely wrestling with my doubts and my questions on my own for a long time. And it wasn't until I said, okay, I really need to break out of this box I've been limited to. I need to listen to some other voices that I started reading and learning from Christians who are women black Christians, like people that weren't as tied to the power structures of American evangelicalism. And I Their voices were so refreshing. They brought in new elements of faith and of God and how to experience God. That really felt different to me, but just as authentic and valid as what I had been taught. And it was really freeing. So one of my motivations for writing the book was to think about myself in my early 20s and say, I wish I had a book that would have accompanied myself through that time. And now there's actually more books on what is now called deconstruction, Reconstruction and all of that. But I also had a very specific perspective, which is that I hadn't ever learned from Asian American or Asian theologians growing up, even though I'm Asian American. And that felt curious to me. And I said, wait, like, even in my home church, all the theology that we were taught was really passed down to us through white men, honestly. And that was true of my adult life as well. Like most everyone who gets quoted from the pulpit to this day in my multi ethnic church, not everyone, but a lot of it is white male theologians. And I got curious after learning from these women and black theologians. I got curious about my own community and what we had to offer the church. And so I started really voraciously reading from Asian American thought leaders in the church. And what they had to say really blessed me. A lot of it was very academic. And so part of my goal with the book was to bring their wisdom to just ordinary people who might not be as ready to read a very academic text. So I wanted to kind of say it in words that ordinary people will understand. So those were kind of the two main motivating factors for the book. And I think in terms of what I hope readers get out of it, I do think I really hope that both Asian American and non Asian American readers will be blessed by that wisdom from, from Asian American theologians. And also I try to construct a vision of Christianity that disconnects us from the American dream more, because I do think that both the Asian immigrant church and the white evangelical church can kind of be bought into this triumphalism sometimes or this, you know, the very natural. But I don't think Christ, like, need to, like, rise or climb ambitious ladders and things like that. And so I hope that readers will get this vision for what solidarity looks like as well. [00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for that, Kristin. As you were talking, one of the things that you said really stood out to me, and it was this theology passed down to us from white men. And I want to hang out there for a second because there's. There's a couple of things that I think that I'm thinking about when I think of that kind of phrasing. One is something I've talked about on the podcast quite a bit. It was my experience in my M. Div. Even though I got my M. Div. From Fuller, which is an institution, I think it's really great at exploring theological ideas that are not only passed down by white men. I still think it falls into some traps of, like, kind of. You may have even used a similar language in your chapter on this. But like, this theology with a capital T, like, this is the main theology, this theology of white men. And then all of these others have these. They have these adjectives, or I might even say they're kind of disclaimers, you know, from this school. And I don't mean just Fuller, but from, like, larger theological school. Right. So we have, like, black theology or feminist theology or Asian American theology or indigenous theology or, you know, Hispanic theology or liberative theology. And it's like, okay, but when it really comes down to it, theology is this, like, white Western, I might even add, like white Western, Reformed, you know, like, this kind of. This is the stream. [00:08:30] Speaker B: But what. [00:08:31] Speaker A: So, so that's. So that's one thing I don't know that we need to, like, you know, necessarily. You say whatever you want to on that one, but that one's like one where I'm like, we've had this conversation. I do want your input. But I also want. I really am curious what your experience has been with when you say this is the theology that comes in from the pulpit. Meaning, you know, for example, I was attending a largely, like, a minority congregation. I had a friend of mine visit who was in the demographic. I wasn't in the demographic, but she was. And she came in and she was like, this just feels real white and evangelical to me. And she was frustrated because it had been her experience that even in congregations that met her demographic, ethnically, she came in and she was like, this is white evangelicalism. And she was kind of pushing, saying, why is that? And so I might ask you about your experiences that even if the person in the pulpit isn't a white man, what about your experiences or things that you've read that shows like, still, what we're getting from the pulpit is still that theology that's been passed down through white men. And why does that matter? [00:09:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Such a great question. I think, I think because. Because institutions of power in the church, like, like these leading seminaries do teach theology with a capital T being Western European centric theology, then pastors and leaders in the church kind of imbibe that, and that's what they bring to their congregations as the correct theology without a label and without labeling it, then the theologies that do get a label, like liberation theology or womanist theology, do get, like you said, a little caveat. And why, in terms of, like, even if they're not white men in the pulpit, do they do that? I think it's because they, you know, we all want to, especially in the academy, be good students. We want to perform well, we want to be successful. We want to be accepted, honestly. And I really love Angela Parker's book, if God Still Breathes, why Can't I? Because she really talks about how doctrine can be used as this tool of control. And, and yeah, if you kind of stray away from what the people in power say is the correct way to believe, then you get labeled a heretic, you get labeled heterodox. Right. And so then you get cast out of those circles. And I don't. And I understand why, you know, there should be good debate about. Yeah. What is true and of God. And it's not that we can't debate that or have conversations about that, but I think that too often those conversations are wielded to silence people on the margins. And so even if the person in the pulpit isn't a white man, they, they see what happens to people who hew to the, to the party. Party line, so to speak, on these issues of theology. And so. And I think they truly, genuinely want to teach their congregations the right things. And if the right things have always been taught to fit in this box, then that's what they'll reach for. So, yeah, I, I think things are changing slowly, but not nearly fast enough and not reaching enough people in throughout America. Yeah. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah. When you started reading voices that had been marginalized as you talked about at the beginning what kinds of things started to change for you. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh my goodness. It was such a revolution in my heart and my soul. And it gave me so much hope. Because what I felt as I was reading these voices that, that had been marginalized is that these people were really true followers of Jesus and authentic in their faith on fire for God, like doing and living in radical ways for Jesus and, and, and that could not be questioned. And. But what I had always been taught is that when you step outside these bounds, like, then you go off to perdition, right? Like you, it's a slippery hope, you're going to go to hell, blah, blah. So I had always thought that reading from unsanctioned voices would lead me astray, but I was like, no, these voices are leading me to Jesus and a deeper relationship with Jesus and a deeper understanding for how faith can transform our lives. And so it gave me new life. And it also gave me a model with which to say it's okay to critique the church. Because, you know, I think doubts and questions were not accepted when I was growing up, and critiques of church and the power structures in American Christianity were not accepted. But then when I saw these people who were true followers of Jesus being able to critique both our theology or the way that power is wielded, I thought, oh my goodness, like, that is so refreshing that they can say these things out of love and out of concern for ordinary people who might be led astray by the ways that power is wielded in inappropriate ways in the church. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I. I actually really like how you call them unsanctioned voices. And I think. I think while you're correct that there is a lot of progress being made, I do think that there is. There's still some pushback to those unsanctioned voices. Yeah. And so, yeah, anyway, it matters to embrace those. Like you said, putting theology aside for just a minute, kind of. I want to ask about your experiences and what you know from others who had stake in the immigrant church, you know, immigrant churches across the nation. I ask this because I remember being struck a few years ago by a professor that I had. I think he's talked about this publicly. But anyway, and I think you. I think you quote him, Seung Chun Ra, in the book. And I think that he has talked about this publicly about his mother's experience in the immigrant church that she was a part of. And I remember being kind of struck because at the time, and still I am an advocate for a Multicultural church, if and when it is done well. And there's, there's like a whole lot that can be said on that. There's a whole lot of opinions on that and what that looks like. [00:16:07] Speaker B: But. [00:16:08] Speaker A: And so I think that I was anticipating for that to kind of be what was preached in a lot of my coursework. And when Dr. R.A. started sharing about his mother's experience in the immigrant church, I was like, wow, this is a place that's really needed. I would add that right now in the US in what I have seen going on right now, there's some, maybe, maybe not a ton, but I think there's some pushback toward even the black church in the US Why does that need to exist? And things like that. Again, a whole other podcast on that as well. But one of the things I remember Dr. Ross saying, and when I've spoken with people who are inside the black church as well, is this is one of the places where, when a lot of the rest of the week feels unsafe at worst or uncomfortable kind of at best, that these churches are a place where people can come and have a safe haven. And it's a place where, you know, it was described to me every food they had in the fridge was Korean food, so nobody was complaining about. And, you know, they might have people who are complaining during the week, what is this kimchi doing in the fridge? You know, this communal fridge at work or whatever it is. And this was a place where they said, you know, everyone here, we feel comfortable. They can speak the language of their hearts in their homeland that they're accustomed to and communicate with one another and not get weird looks or things like that. And this is something that majority culture folk folks don't generally understand from personal experience. So they might have a glimpse if they have people in their lives for whom the opposite is true. But majority culture folks live their lives where they're not having to deal with that kind of thing. And I found it to be very beautiful that the church could be that kind of community. And it made me take a different perspective on kind of just advocating solely for a multicultural church, even though I think there's a lot of value there. I think that especially for some, some folks, first, you know, first gen immigrants being a really good example in my mind of people for whom a church like that, that's kind of more monolithic, for lack of a better word, in this moment would be beneficial. You talk in the book about some of the kind of the beauties, similar to what I've talked about in More, but also some of the difficulties of immigrant churches in the U.S. can you talk a little bit more about that? [00:19:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. You phrased it so beautifully about why immigrant churches are so essential. So I won't belabor those points, but just heartily agree with, with why there's a place for immigrant churches. And one thing I will add is that there is actually a lot of hidden diversity even within immigrant churches. So they may seem monolithic in some ways, but like even among the Chinese churches that have been a part of, like there's a diversity of languages even in the Chinese church. There's, you know, Cantonese at man and Mandarin at a minimum, but then so many other dialects. Right. And there's a, a lot of political differences. People are coming from China and Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore, nationality differences. People can be on very different spectrums of, of history and then coming to the US and kind of getting flattened out to this just Asian American or Chinese American. So there actually is a lot of interaction across differences even within an immigrant church. So I did want to highlight that because I think like you said, majority culture, people don't always pick up on those nuances. But yeah, in terms of the challenges of the immigrant church, and I've had so many conversations with my fellow second gen friends about these things and, and I think we can see the gifts very clearly and, and the necessity, but I think sometimes they can become sort of insular spaces. These are big generalizations. There are churches that don't succumb to these, but they can become somewhat insular, whether that's because of linguistic limitations or because, you know, the elders and the parents in the church really want to kind of preserve the sanctity of that space. And it's doubly so in Christian spaces where you don't want outside, quote, unquote, bad influences to come in. And that's both from, you know, culturally and from a faith lens. So that can be a little bit tough for people to feel like if you're not conforming to this picture of a, for example, Korean American Christian or a Chinese American Christian, it can be tough to break in. Other challenges are, I think we, we, we can sometimes buy into this need to succeed in America. That's very core to who we are as immigrants. And I don't think that's inherently bad to want stability like Eliza's stability. I think Jesus wants our flourishing. But I think that sometimes it's not just stability. It's like we need to be excellent, we need to excel, we need to achieve the most we need to be financially, you know, very well off because we came from such scarcity. And so I think sometimes we can almost overshoot, so to speak, and those values kind of get reinforced at church sometimes, which is not necessarily part of the gospel. So those are just a couple of things. I talk in the book about some other things, but I think those are two at the top of mind right now for me. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for highlighting those. I was really grateful for the time that you spent in the book talking about, gosh, kind of that. That success model that you alluded to just now. That is something I certainly can't speak to in any sort of Asian American experience. But I do definitely appreciate it on a more broad lens of like, capitalism inside of American evangelicalism. You know, me just kind of shooting from the hip, which is not always a great idea. But when I, when I'm, you know, there, I'm like, you know, immediately thinking about, like, the desire to attend or align ourselves with, like, mega church pastors who have, like, the most books or, you know, the most reach, you know, or who are the biggest influencers or, you know, things like this. And I'm like, I don't really. I would say I don't know where this comes from. I think we do, but that is, that is also. That is also a big part of kind of this. I don't know, the. That's a big part of the culture. When you're talking about reckoning with American Christianity, that capitalism and you talk about in the epilogue, capitalism and also whiteness that often go hand in hand are a big part of American Christianity. And I'm grateful for your desire to, to model one way that. That looks, you know, one, One example of what that looks like to reckon with it. But I think there are many of us who, you know, are parts of different varying communities, and we would say, what are we doing to reckon with the way that capitalism, whiteness, racism, exclusion, these kinds of things that you mentioned in the book are connected with American Christianity. So you talk about several of those in the book. Capitalism, whiteness, exclusion, racism, immigration. Do you want to pick one and just kind of elaborate a little bit further, further on, like a connection that you saw between that ism and American Christianity and what you, maybe what you chose to do with that or how you chose to move. Move forward as you, as you thought about that and the connections there? [00:25:21] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, it goes so many different places. I think one thing that helps me in my faith journey was, was reckoning with the racism in the American church. Because I didn't feel like I could call that out before I started reading black theologians. And so many of their books were pivotal for me, but especially James Cones, the Cross and the Lynching Tree. And I think once he pointed out that a lot of our institutions in American Christianity, whether that's Christian colleges or churches or seminaries, were founded by people who were either slave holders or segregationists and kind of continue to very modern day times to, to be entrenched in like opposing interracial marriage or, or other just like unconscionable views. Once I realized that those were some of the fathers of our so called faith, I was like, wait, I can definitely, I definitely don't want to stand for any of those things, but. And I can definitely critique some of the views that they hold, not just around race, but if they're fallible on race, maybe they're fallible on other things. And I think that unlocks something in me that was really helpful, not because I wanted to bring down our institutions or bring down American Christianity, but because their views have been so damaging to so many people. And I think that it's, I think that if we don't want people to be harmed, we have to call those things out. So that was a, was a big thing for me. [00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I agree that that's. That one is one that I feel like should be a required reading. I'll name another one that is a bit more. It's recent, it comes from a different perspective, but. Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Cognomeya. I was like, okay. I, I'm like, I know there were a lot of, there were a lot of critiques of this book, but the way I described it when I read it in kind of one sentence was I felt like, because she's a historian and a scholar, and I was like, I feel like she just, she just like pulled the curtain back. Like she just let us see what was backstage, you know. Like, I didn't feel like there was like a ton of commentary, honestly. It's like just extraordinarily well researched and was like, if you want to see like those kinds of things that you're talking about, like James cone, it's like she has the receipts too, you know, for a lot of that. And she, all she did was just show you the bookkeeping, you know, like, she just showed us the receipts and we could, you know, we can make the connections from there, but on this racism in the church. I want to ask. There was one kind of overarching theme that you had throughout the book that I related to very personally as a mixed person. And that is this felt pressure to assimilate. And it's connected, I think, to what you were just talking about of like not feeling like you couldn't call out racism in the church and things like that. Not all of your experience experiences were church related. But I would like you to share a little bit about. About that for you. One. One particular thing that struck me, and I think there's a lot of kind of undercurrents here that could. That could make us think about a lot of different things. But I'll share my experience and then I'd love for you to share your experience that I felt like, mirrored mine, mirrored yours. You when you went to Harvard and then me, I didn't go to Harvard, but I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma. My parents still live there and my mom is Mexican American. My dad is white. And when I grew up there, but my parents also grew up there. Like, my mom was born there and my dad moved when he was 5. So this is just an example when I was working. Okay. I feel okay if you're under 30. Back in the day, we used to have these stores, like real stores in the mall where you could go and you could buy media, so you could buy books in person, like on paper. You could buy music on, like, CDs that you put in different players in your car. And you could buy videos that you would go and you physically would have vhs. Okay. So anyway, I worked at a store that specifically sold books, music and video. So anyway. But when I was at this retail shop, I would work and people would come up to me who maybe hadn't seen my parents, specifically my mom, because she couldn't deny me if she tried. If they hadn't seen her in maybe, you know, 20 years or something. And they'd say, oh, my goodness, you must be Stephanie's daughter. And I'm like, yes, because we look very much alike and people kind of knew each other. I mean, it wasn't like Andy Griffith or something, but, you know, small enough. Anyway, I say all that to say I grew up in the kind of place where we were familiar with one another. Then we moved when I was in middle school for a couple of years, only for my dad to do his graduate work to Northern Indiana. It's a very white place. And for the first time, I experienced what a lot of mixed people experienced experience, which is the question, what are you? And, you know, I still get that question now. But as A kid. You know, as a preteen, it really struck me. I came home and I told my mom, oh, my gosh, this kid at school was like, what are you? And she said, what did you say? And I said, I told him I was a human. I don't know what he wanted me to say. You know, I'm not a dog. What do you mean? What are you? You know. And then the conversation continued. I was like, oh, they're asking about, like, my ethnicity, my background, you know, all this kind of thing. But it was very. It shocked me because I was like, I. Anyway, I had been in a place of familiarity, and then I went to a place where I wasn't a familiar face to people, and they didn't know what to do with me because I didn't have a category for someone who looked like me. And it was, you know, even before that, I did experience some of that, like, kind of desire to be, like, normative, which for me was white. You know, why did my knees look this certain way? Why did, you know, my hair didn't look like, you know, the other girls at school, you know, things like that. But. But then I was able. Like, that was. Gave me more words, like, kind of more. More vocabulary for maybe what I was feeling. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:19] Speaker A: Anyway, so I was not surprised. But I was kind of like, oh, when I was reading your stories, I think your story, I think still there's part of me, you know, in middle age who was like, oh, there are other people, other women who experience something similar. They don't look like me, but they experience maybe something similar in interpersonally, but also interpersonally. So I'm wondering if you might share some of the things from the book that, if this rings familiar to you like your story did to me, can you mirror back to me and to our listeners some of the things that you experienced? [00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So similar. So I grew up in Iowa City, which probably wasn't quite as small of a town, but it was still a small town. And, you know, I'd gone to school with the same classmates from kindergarten through high school. And I think what I didn't realize was I was a known entity, right? By the time I graduated from high school, like, people knew who I was. Like, they knew me as a person, not just as what I looked like. And. And, you know, there's also this layer of internalized racism, probably, or just, like, internalized white normativity that I had no words for at the time. I did not know that, but I just wanted to fit in you know, like, all kids want to fit in. And so I wanted to be like my friends. I wanted to like the same things they did. I wanted to. I wanted to read the Western classics because that's what a real scholar would do, right? Like, those were the things that were put to me as, like, being. Whether it's like, a cool person because you're listening to that kind of music, or a learned scholar because you're reading those books. Right? So I was very much. I. I thought I had fooled everyone. I was like, I fit in. I. I'm accepted here. And, And I was trul. Great place to grow up. But I went off to school at Harvard and in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And it's a very diverse place, which you would think is great, and it is. But what I didn't realize is because I wasn't a known entity there, people just saw me and categorized me right away. And I had never experienced that in my life. And I was like, what is going on? Like, there was this immediate feeling that, like, Asian American classmates were like, you're one of us. Like, come hang out. And then everyone else was like, you're not one of us. We have no interest in getting to know you. And I was like, whoa, this is so different from what I've been used to. And I really spent that first year, like, reeling from that. Not because I didn't want to hang out with fellow Asian Americans. That was cool. But I was also like, but why, why not everyone? Like, why can't we all get along? What's going on here? And it took years for me to really process what that was all about and why, you know, parts of that are fine and parts of that are not healthy, you know, so. But it took. It was just a shocking experience, especially compared to how I grew up. And. And it was maybe like my first inkling that we are not a post racial society. Yeah, I feel like you can say that again. [00:35:34] Speaker A: I mean, it's funny when you said, when you said that, but even before you said the word learned, I'm like, I used to actually joke in high school and going into college, I went to a liberal arts school that I. That I hadn't read anything that you were supposed to have read if you are to be considered learned. Mostly because I just didn't like it. Like, I'm just like little women. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Ugh. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Like, I'm just, like, not interested, you know? Like, I'm not the. I'm not the, the woman that I, you know. But I think that. But that also continues you know, from just, like, culturally, but also, like, even to the academy, which we could preach a whole sermon on that, too. Like, what is acceptable in the academy, what should you have read if you're, you know, considered to be a scholar and all those kinds of things. Thank you so much for sharing that, because that. Yeah, that is. It's huge. Like, culturally. And we can look at it from, like, what is happening here historically and culturally and all that. But to have it, like, be able to express it from, like. This is what I was feeling, you know, this is what I was, like, surprised by this. Yeah, that feels really big. Oh, my gosh, Kristen. I'm like, where do we go next? There's like a million different places I want to go. I wonder if you can talk about some of the history of, like, racism and racist policies in the US that you touch on in your book. And I think how. So how that has affected Asian Americans, but also the black and white dichotomy. Oh, my gosh, everywhere in conversations of race. I will just share two very brief things before I ask you to elaborate. One is this black, white dichotomy that I think in many ways it is extremely important to, to. For the US to own, like, the racism against black people that has always existed here. And the dichotomy leaves so much history and current issues out that we haven't, haven't. We haven't fully reckoned with any of it, but that we haven't reckoned with that make things like what's happening currently with immigration confusing for folks. You know, I would say I've seen a lot of people, many of them white, you know, on social media or things like that, saying, this is not who we are as Americans. You know, looking at, like, buying up warehouses and create. I'm like, well, if we knew our history of what we have done specifically to the Asian American population in the US Then we would say, absolutely, this is who we are. This should not be a shocker. When I look at things I have. I was, gosh, in my 30s or 40s the first time someone asked me if my great grandmother, who was the first immigrant on my mom's side to come to the US if she crossed the border, if the border had crossed her, because that person knew his history about Mexico and the US and it was a valid question. She did, for the record, cross the border, but it was a valid question, you know, because this is. These are things that we don't know enough history sometimes to even. To even ask. And, you know, when folks who are in the spectrum of, you know, having experienced racism in the US for generations and generations get left out of the conversation. But our stories and the stories of our ancestors are important as well. And I would name Asian Americans of many different nationalities, Hispanic folks like me of many different nationalities. Mexicans is, you know, probably the biggest group with the biggest history there. Indigenous folks, you know, we could go on. And so I think that the black white issues are extraordinarily important and that it is important also not to miss those of us because we. Not just because we can fill in some gaps, we can fill in some gaps in history, but also because it's important to recognize what has happened and what continues to happen there. So you include a lot of that in the book. What would you like to say about that? [00:40:21] Speaker B: Yes, Well, I am so glad you brought up historically history, because I feel like history has been such an important part of my adult life, like reclaiming my heritage and also understanding the world around me. We were not taught enough history in school. I did not learn about the page act of 1875 that prohibited Chinese women from immigrating, or the Chinese Exclusion act of 1882 that prohibited all Chinese people from immigrating to the US and I didn't know that that's why there weren't a lot of Asians in the US until the Hart Cellar act of 1965. Right? There were some, and there's some people who have been here for generations. But for the most part, that was what unleashed the wave of immigration. And I didn't know that the Hart Cellar act of 1965 was tied into the civil rights movement and, like, how grateful we should be for the black leaders that were at the forefront of that and the allies that helped bring that about. So I think understanding our history is just really important to understanding our present and how we got here. And it also makes us much more compassionate people. So unfortunately, in the Asian American community, I think the younger generation, if they're kind of looking around, I think we have access to a lot of this history if we're trying to find it. But the older generations that were just trying to survive and make it might not even know this full history. And I think it's incumbent upon us to have conversations with our elders about what's going on, because even on immigration policy, sometimes I'm surprised by what the Asian American community, especially the older generations, think about immigration policy in the US And I'm like, wait, you don't realize that they did this to us, right? So. So I think having these conversations intra. Communally. Right. With our elders is so important because we don't want to go and discriminate against other people. And then also just knowing the history of the US intervention in the world causing destabilization throughout Latin America for our selfish aims as a country. These people don't want to leave home. That Guatemalan mother, the Mexican family. It's not that they want to be displaced. They are only coming because it is unlivable. And the US has been a part of making it unlivable in their home countries. And so, yeah, I think history is key to me and central to a lot of what I talk about in the book. And I think that also helps us not. Yeah, I think it helps us be more compassionate and empathetic and it affects how we view policy today. So that's. I'm trying to think if there's anything. Sorry, like. Well, that's what's part of the question. [00:43:21] Speaker A: No, keep, keep. I mean, keep that in your mind. And if there's something else, like, bring it up because it is such a huge, huge part. And we are. Yeah, I think many of us. I'm like, I, like, history is hard for me. I mean, I study it at times because I know I need to, but I'm not like a history buff. But, you know, but I will say as an example of that, I was reading and this is recent history and so it feels weird to even call it history, but it is recent history. But I was reading there was a. I can't remember the author, but the book, the name of the book is called the Blood of Emmett Till and it was written by a journalist back then from the Washington Post. It's an older book, but he wrote this story of what happened to Emmett Till with some of the history there, culturally, what was happening in the United States States, but also with him and his family and then all the way through to his lynching and beyond when his, when his body was put on, really out on display by, you know, from his mom for, for people to witness. And I read that much of it sitting in my front yard during the pandemic. And at the time I was like, oh, my goodness. I'm. I'm watching news coverage of George Floyd being, you know, executed with, you know, Ahmaud Arbery, you know, the same, you know, this similar lynching news had been. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is the same. Like this is, you know, whoever. I mean, I think it's attributed to Mark Twain, the History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme. You know, I'm like, this is what we're experiencing now, but when we don't see the history or aren't familiar with the history, then it feels brand new. This feels like a brand new problem. We have to reinvent the wheel. Or I think we tell ourselves what, in my opinion, these lies based in American exceptionalism, like, these ones that I've seen of, like, this isn't who we are. And I say, well, that's just really not true, you know, of us. And it's not about, like, bashing us as a country, but it's like, let's be realistic about who we are, because if we don't see the real problems, then we can't actually work to remedy them at all. And so that becomes, like, super problematic. Oh, gee whiz. I'm looking at the time here going, oh, my goodness. We only have probably time for a couple of more questions, and I have so many of them. Let's see. As we talk about the history, I was really intrigued by. You have a segment, maybe a chapter on loving each other and living in solidarity, especially with folks who've been marginalized. But the framework that you give is recognizing, again, some of the stuff we've been talking about that this is marginalization often is happening or it's as a result of being systemically separated and segregated from one another. And this isn't just like, black white dichotomy that we've talked about. This is like, in general. And I'm wondering, even as I say that out loud, I'm like, I wonder if that was even. I'm curious now. I was like, oh, gosh, was that even part of. Maybe what you experienced. Experienced when you went to school is you had, like, these, you know, Asian American folks who were like, hey, come, you know, come hang out with us, or whatever. But even in a really diverse city and region, like you were in. But just in general, like, loving folks who don't look like us intentionally, when the system has many times intentionally tried to keep us apart. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in recent years, I've come to realize that loving other people, well, requires proximity, especially across differences. Right. Like, it is one thing to say, I support people, or even, I mean, back up, there's. When society separates us, it's easy to think of people as other. And that is dangerous and dehumanizing. And so I think the only way to counteract that is to enter into relationships with people. And that's not easy because We're. We're separated by neighborhoods, by geography, by class. Right. There's lots of different ways that society separates us and. And who we end up interacting with on a daily basis. And so I think our family has to be very intentional about how we can create proximity. Not just, like, not to create proximity for, like, performative reasons or to pat ourselves on the back. Like, I have a black friend. Like, oh, my gosh, that is not necessary. Like, that's not helpful to anyone, just to, like, congratulate yourself for crossing those differences. But what I mean is inviting people into your home who need a meal, who need a place to stay, like, real, actual, actual proximity, I guess, is like rubbing shoulders with people, sharing a fridge with someone, hiring someone to work for your company who you might have to take a risk on, whether that's like, someone returning from incarceration or a new immigrant refugee. So I think that's the only way that we can really know one another as people. Kind of like what you and I were talking about earlier, when we were known as people in our small towns, it was really different. And people didn't just see us based on the color of our skin or our heritage. Right. Like, we were actual people with personalities and characteristics. And so I think that's really important for how we go forward and try to live in solidarity with others. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate you naming all sorts of difference there. And, you know, I think of also of, like, places where we live, but also places where we work, places where we go to school. I think one of the things, like, I've always been. I don't. I don't even know my parents. I realize now what a gift my parents gave me by our family was just always surrounded by a lot of diversity of all the different kind. You know, like. Like, you know, really class, race, ethnicity, like, socioeconomic stuff, like, you know, even vocation. It was just great. Like, I was around so many different kinds of people growing up, and I realized what a gift that was, especially when I talk to friends in adulthood who just didn't have that. And even now in adulthood, I have had people ask me, like, I just don't know. Like, they. They're. They're seeking the proximity that you're talking about. And. And they will ask me, like, how. Like, how do I get that? And part of the. The thing that they say, how do I get that? Because, you know, they look around, and when they look around the places that they normally go, they don't see that whether it's church or school or work. Or their neighborhoods. And it's easy. You know, it can be easy to say, well, that's on you. Why don't you get out and do that? And there's a part of me that says, yeah, you know, like, get out and be intentional. But I think there's also something about, like, all these things that we've been talking about, understanding the system, knowing the history. Like, all this. Like, these things were kind of set up so that when you look around, unless you do something out of the ordinary, you probably will be surrounded with people who kind of look, you know, they. They might kind of look like you. Especially for a majority folk people, that's really the case. You just kind of look around, and the people around you kind of look like you. And. And that's. And that's unfortunate, but it really does take a level of being intentional that is really hard sometimes to do that. So. Yeah. So I appreciate that you bring that [00:52:14] Speaker B: up [00:52:17] Speaker A: as we kind of start to land the plane. Oh, my goodness. Kristen, I'm like, I have so many work questions and things I'd love for [00:52:24] Speaker B: you to share about. [00:52:27] Speaker A: I. Okay. I almost want to say, like, I don't know. I'm trying to think here. Sometimes I do, like, a choose your own adventure, you know, kind of thing. But I think if you were talking to someone, someone who has a similar background as you, who might be listening to this, but they haven't grabbed the book yet because probably when it releases, it won't quite be. It won't quite be out yet. Maybe they're experiencing some of the similar experiences that you had. Maybe a push and a pull. If I were to name it, after reading the. [00:53:16] Speaker B: The book, [00:53:19] Speaker A: what would you say to encourage them in their journeys forward with faith? They're compelled by Jesus, like you, and they might be frustrated with some of the things that they've seen or experienced. Yeah. How would you. And then I would ask you one more after that, maybe. Yeah, good. Yeah. [00:53:45] Speaker B: I would say lean into that tension. Keep wrestling. All that has come, like, all that's been fruitful out of my faith life has come from wrestling with God. Kind of like Jacob did. Like, I. I think there was a time when there was maybe, like, nine months where I was like, maybe I'll experiment with, like, not believing and, like, kind of taking a step back. We were living abroad at the time in Kenya, actually, so it wasn't easy to find a faith community. And there was a lot of reasons where. Why it. I just, like. I was like, this isn't working. Like Hitting my head against the wall isn't working. But not engaging was not helpful. Like, I tried to, like, pretend I didn't believe in anything, and. But that didn't go anywhere. And so coming back and trying to wrestle even with the things that was really uncomfortable with the American church, like, I had not found those voices that we were talking about at the beginning yet at that point in my life. But even coming back to a very imperfect church and coming back to a faith that was still so full of what I felt were holes, staying engaged is the only way. And God, you know, God isn't afraid of our questions. God isn't afraid of our anger or our pain or our frustrations. Like, God just says, bring that to me. Like, yes, I'm also mad about that stuff in the church, Right? Like, God can handle that. And so I think that's my encouragement. And also, you know, the latter half of my book talks a lot about this vision for how being. How really living into our full identities, wrestling with our heritage and bring that to God as well can be really fruitful. And so I would say there's just so much richness when we bring all parts of ourselves to God and not just the parts that the church says is okay. And I'm just so grateful that I did find these voices of, you know, Rachel Held Evans, who's book of posthumous essays is out this week, and others that I've mentioned. I am so grateful that there's others who have gone before us who didn't give up and who made a more spacious path for those of us who feel like misfits in this journey. So if you feel like you don't belong, you're not alone, and you do belong. [00:56:19] Speaker A: I lied. I don't have anything else. I think that's the perfect way to wrap this up. Gosh, I am so incredibly grateful. I would just encourage listeners to grab a copy of this book. Every chapter just felt so meaningful to me. And I had a list of questions that were probably twice as long as what we got to. And so I would just say there's so much more. There's so much more in the book. And I would just encourage everyone to grab a copy as well as, you know, grab some of the resources that we've mentioned here today that Kristin's mentioned. I'll have links to those in the show notes as well. And I want to say the name of the book one more time. It's called We Mend with An Immigrant Reckoning with American Christianity by Kristin Lee. Kristen. This time has been an absolute joy for me. So I just thank you so much for being with me. [00:57:19] Speaker B: Likewise. Thank you so much. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Alexa the links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Busetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected] [00:57:41] Speaker B: Sam.