[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, so this really is so much fun for me, Laura, because I told you before we started recording that anybody in Texas? I don't know. Maybe I'm trying. You can tell I'm not a native Texan because I feel like maybe it's my, like, subconscious or unconscious way of trying to, like, shrink Texas. But I'm like, we're all neighbors. You know, it's not that big. We're all. We're all neighbors. And so since you're in Texas, too, I said, you know, hey, neighbor. And, oh, my goodness. I feel like we really are neighbors, though. Like, we have so many geographical and also, like, seminary connections that it feels really fun to meet, like, I want to say, like, a mutual. A mutual friend almost, but we got connected through the book. So thanks so much for being on the podcast with me.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: So I am here with Laura Bagdasarian Murray, who has written a wonderful book called Becoming a Person of the Spiritual Practice of Hospitality. And excuse me, I hope that this cedar here in Austin isn't going to get me this whole conversation, but we'll see.
Laura, I want to start off by kind of saying hospitality is something that has.
It's something that I was raised with. I think we'll talk about that possibly a little bit more.
My grandmother and grandfather on my dad's side, I ended up writing something about them that I ended up reading as kind of a.
In addition to a eulogy at my grandmother's funeral service. But it was really just about their hospitality that really, everyone who went into their home felt welcomed, like, felt like an old friend.
You know, I had a friend when I was a young mom once say to me, I had. Like, all my kids are really close together in age, and there's. I say, there's a lot of them. There's four. That was more than I grew up with. And so I walked in, and I'm afraid that I've got, like, all these toddlers, and I'm nervous that they're gonna mess things up. And my friend said, they just let them go upstairs and play with my kids, it's fine. And she said there's nothing precious in that space.
And to me it felt like her way of saying, I swear you're not gonna mess anything up. Like you have a fear that you're gonna, that you're gonna impose, that you're going to mess something up. We'll talk about boundaries later. Probably in the podcast.
It wasn't that there wasn't anything precious at my grandparents house. It was just that it felt like all the things that were there, precious or not, people were welcome to be around. And that felt really special. Fast forward to I'm in college, young adult. We take these.
Okay, you're at least maybe evangelical adjacent. We took some spiritual gifts, inventory kind of things.
Mine pops up. Gift of hospitality, I think. Okay, yes, I've received that kind of from my grandmother. But even in all of that, the definition for me felt a little narrow.
And you talk about that some in the book and I hope we'll get there. But I just want to put that out and say what, what we're going to cover today, what you cover in the book isn't really maybe the narrow slice of hospitality that many of us are accustomed to thinking about when we hear that term.
You know, I was, you know, you walk in, you think this is, I'm dating myself. Is this Donna Reed? You know, like, are we, is this the kind of thing where we are expected to have something when people walk in the door? You know, you can have tea and cookies or something like this. But this is a much broader way to talk about hospitality.
And it is more than just a logistical or a physical thing. Even the subtitle indicates this is a spiritual practice and you're a spiritual director. And so I'm hoping that you can bring all of that in. And so I just kind of wanted to give us like a, a little intro to that. Say, I think we're going to talk in a much broader way about that term. What do you think?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And even some of the story that you shared, there are elements of true hospitality within them. So your grandmother saw people as precious and they felt that way.
And your friend gave you a way of being a guest, of just calming your anxiousness about being a guest. And that's what hospitality is as well. And so even in your story, there are elements of it that are there. And yeah, some of us grew up with this idea that hospitality was limited to those with a spiritual gift of it or a particular gender or somebody who has a certain type of home or all the time in the world to clean the house or whatever it is. And it. It kind of became limited and narrowed to specific people or types. And then also it started to be defined, at least in the. Some of. Some of the American culture, not all of ours, maybe as entertainment. And so it was limited to entertainment. And what we see in scripture is that hospitality is far more than entertainment, though it can be. It can be fun.
It's about restoration. It's about caring for our neighbor, and it's also about holding people as the most precious thing. And so wherever you go, you can carry with you this thought that this person is made in the image of God.
They might be hurting.
They might have something to celebrate. How can I go and enter into their world and love them and meet them where they are? And so it's just a. It's. It's something that we can carry with us wherever we go, and we can cultivate it. And I call it a spiritual practice because it takes practice. You know, it takes practice to notice. It takes practice to. To make your schedule so that you can slow down and be attentive. And so.
And I call it a practice, too, because, you know, we won't do it well, or we'll learn from it, or we'll get stronger at it. And so hospitality is much more than what it's been limited to. It includes it, but it's much more than that.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate that you start the book off by talking about your family and their immigration story. And I think that that's. It's really important for a whole host of reasons.
But I also want to say it felt very familiar to me, and I received it as warm, partially because I grew up with.
I grew up with a Persian uncle.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: And he was married on my Hispanic side of the family. And so going to their house felt like something very different than going to other members of my family, whether it was on my Hispanic side or on my white side.
Going to their house felt just very different and wonderful.
Since I was a young adult, my husband and I have also spent, I mean, a decent amount of time in the Middle East. I don't know, maybe eight or ten trips or something like that. And experienced a similar kind of regional hospitality. There are some themes that are similar, and you talk about that, too, in the book.
So I just want to kind of throw that out there to say that felt.
That felt so familiar. And I could.
I could. Like when I was reading parts of your book, I was sitting in my aunt and uncle's living room and imagining the rice and the tea and, you know, sitting on Persian rugs and playing with my cousins and experiencing that kind of wonderful hospitality all over again. And so that felt like a real personal gift. And in reading this.
But again, you talk about it, including that kind of thing, but also in a much broader sense. And one of the things that really got me, and you know that I've participated in a project on this as well, but you use this phrase that home is chosen for some people.
And so I'd love it if you can elaborate, share what you would like to share about your families immigration story and also how that. What that phrase means to you and how that affects how you think about and practice hospitality.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. And I love that. I love that you could relate to that part of the book.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: So fun.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, for my family, their story included the means to be able to immigrate, a time period in which it was easier to immigrate.
And so when you, you know, some. Some people immigrate or move a lot for opportunity, and they were able to. Right.
My dad came over with a. With a bunch of friends, and they kind of got a lay of the land. And then spouses and kids came later and joined them. But you had to have financial means.
It was a time when.
When the country they were coming from, there was openness for them to leave the country and to create home. And so when they came here, they were choosing to create a new way of being, a new home. Now, that's not every immigrant story.
A lot of immigrants don't choose home, but it is chosen for them.
When you think about refugees who don't want to leave their home and who love it and who have experienced the injustice and just whatever, you know, all the things that they experience, right. That they have to flee home.
And so that's a very different narrative. That's a very different story. I even think about, you know, decades ago, where Africans were brought, were taken from Africa and brought to the United States. I mean, they did not get to choose home.
And so you find these cultures and stories and peoples where home. They don't get to choose it.
You can even take it to a local level as well. You think about those who are in the foster care system.
You think about even kids, you know, who are raised in houses, I would say, of a lot of brokenness and pain. And they are there for a while, for whatever time period. So sometimes home is chosen for you because you don't have the power or the agency to choose it. And So I think when we talk about immigrants in general, that's a very broad umbrella. Or when we talk about home, I think there's a very broad umbrell. Some people have chosen it, some people haven't. Some people have to go searching for it, some people find it in small pockets, and some people don't find it.
And so when.
So when I think about home in general, I think, how can we, as the people of God, create places, maybe even just for a few moments or maybe for longer periods of time, where somebody can say, I can choose to be in this home. This is a home in which I am welcome. This is a home where I can be. This is a home where I'm seen and I'm valued.
And I have people who are advocates for me and who will fight for me, because sometimes they've been fighting for themselves for a long time.
That's just a bigger understanding of, I think, immigration, but also beyond that of the idea of home and choosing it and. And it being chosen for one.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Will you talk about some of the particularities, the ones that I referenced, that felt warm to me and just kind of how that started to shape and form, not just your idea of home and being welcomed, but maybe hosting and hospitality.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So when the. The home I grew up in was very communal. It was a very communal culture. And that meant whenever somebody showed up, everybody stopped what they were doing, everybody turned to the guest, everybody made a sacrifice of some kind. If we were eating, there was never a. There wasn't enough food. You know, you just either ate or, Or. Or. Well, let's just say in an Armenian home, there was always plenty of food because, you know, then. And I think in other cultures, too, you would make batches of food and eat off of it for a few days. So there was always plenty of food.
And so you always sacrificed or surrendered something and at. You know, and this often would conflict. When I became a teenager, you know, I was like, well, I don't want to stop what I'm doing to go say hi to my dad's friend and sit or offer them some tea or, you know, like. Like into conflict in those moments. And it came into conflict for me as well, because I had the American culture that was outside my door that was far more individualistic, and then the. The communal culture internally inside the house. And so that was a real tension for me that I didn't even know I was carrying. I just knew those values were conflicting.
But it did.
Did help to shape me in ways that I didn't Even realize it. Like, I often will talk with and I'll say the word we, and every once in a while, people will say, who? Wait, who's we? And because I'm assuming a community that I'm a part of, I'm assuming I'm a part of a people. And it's just interesting. And I had never noticed that I did that and that that it automatically I would carry with me this posture of, well, we or inclusion or collaboration or discussion or things like that. And so I think that kind of blended even into my adult years, and I had no idea about it.
The other way it did it is, is you just were always expectant that interruptions were normal, that you would have to stop what you're doing. You would have to make way for someone. And so interruptions were a normal part of life. Now I will say, admittedly, I don't like interruptions. I'm a goal setter. I am a. Like, I want to get something done. And I'm like, don't interrupt. Because it takes so much energy to start back up what I was working on. And so that is really hard for me. That's when I'm like, oh, I love this individualistic culture, and I love going that way.
But so it's just those things that come up within us. And so I think those couple of things of just being able to be interrupted, I think also it impacted the way I.
The word pace comes to mind. Like, that I grew up also with my grandmother in the home as well.
And then I also have a sister has special needs. And so both of those things kind of slowed down your pace a little bit. I mean, my grandma, I mean, she was strong and healthy, but she walked more slowly. And so you had to walk a little more. You know, you have someone with special needs in your family, you move more slowly. And so even beyond our culture, I think that family dynamic also caused me to be aware when other people didn't feel like a part or other people were excluded because they weren't either keeping up or they couldn't.
Again, this runs again against some of my wiring, which likes to go and move and not have anybody stand in my way. But I think that has also helped me to be more of a person that sees others, that slows down for others, that values others.
And it kind of pushes back my desire to just go and go. Go.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah, a couple of things.
When you said we, we'll say, sometimes, I don't know, my family likes these, like, bizarre Disney movies. I feel like that are a little bit underrated. But there's a scene in Wreck It Ralph where he's, like, talking we. And the driver that she was like, what do you mean?
Start with, like, the royal we? What is that? You know, so sometimes I'll catch myself too, saying we, and then I'm like. I mean, like the royal we, you know. Yeah. But when you're talking about pace, but also the communal versus individualistic, what. What came to my mind was it is very if. If we combine kind of that individualistic American value also with the productivity, but also with this, like, this stretched thinness. Not really a word. But I'm like, those, like the. The pace and the communal, only we can only incorporate those, I guess. Well, if we have enough margin to do that, but. Or sharing even. Like, you're talking about, like, time, space, energy, resources, like, all of those things. If we don't have margin, if we're always, like, up against the limits in all of those things.
I'm imagining, like, that makes practicing hospitality, well, just almost impossible to do if you. If you're always cutting it close or you're always in a hurry or you're always trying to be like, you can't slow down for, like, those things are going to be in conflict. So I just. I don't know, it just made me think, like, how important living with margin, even at, like, kind of all the time, like, as a. As a base level. So that. Because I think that's part of it as I'm trying to learn how to be interrupted. Well, better.
And I also not good at it. And I. I had a professor the other day say, like, I was the one in my class who, like, raised my hand and asked this stupid question, you know, And I'm like, I'm so sorry to interrupt. And his. His response to me was, I love interruptions. And I was like, oh, that would be a lie coming out of my mouth. Like, if I said that.
Yeah, that would be a lie. But how do I get. Maybe I don't get all the way there where I love being interrupted, but maybe I can move toward more flexibility, more margin, those kinds of things that invite an ability to practice hospitality.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Rather than, you know, kind of the opposite of that.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: And as you're sharing that, Alexis, one of my thoughts is when we invite interruption or allow those things, how do we cultivate having a posture that says, God might have something for me here.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: God might have a gift for me in this.
God might want me to receive something.
And so I think the. The the flip side of this productivity is that we miss out on some really beautiful things, not just for others, but for ourselves.
And I was in pastoral ministry for many years, and pastors and ministry leaders do this, but a lot of people do this. I mean, parents do this. We're so busy ch off the to dos. We're so busy doing the things that need to get done that we miss out on the joy of things and we really miss out on the gifts that God has for us.
And I think when we think about hospitality, sometimes we. We think about it as an event or a to do, and we are unable to receive the joy and the gifts within it for us, then we really are missing out on one of the greatest things part of it. And in the book, I talk about how hospitality is this beautiful exchange of gifts and that as hosts, yes, we are offering things to others, or as the one who is, you know, has, let's say, control the conversation or the environment of the meeting or the environment of the house, that there are times that when we slow down, we actually receive the people around us. We receive the beauty of what they have to give.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: We.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: We receive seeing the insights that they bring. So we miss out, really.
And it's not just the guests. It's not just others that miss out. We miss out. And I think that's another piece too, of hospitality is that there is this exchange and we miss out on it.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's. That's really good.
I want to. I want to go back just a tiny bit to. To what you said about hosting and kind of, you know, when. When you have control over the conversation, when you have control over the environment.
Because I.
I felt super.
Not feel super torn, but I did feel a little torn reading this part, which I think was. Was part of the point probably thinking about how sometimes when. And I've thought about this for. For years, but I'm just like, how do. How do I kind of. I don't know, how do I kind of explore living into this in a different way?
But just how. Sometimes it just feels easier to host, you know, it just. And, And. And especially when. I would say especially when my kids were younger, but even now, you know, there's a family. We're a family of six, and my kids are amazing, but I do just kind of feel like we're a lot, you know, like, I'm like, I'm a lot like just me. And then here we, like, we're everybody, and it's, you know, I don't know, we're we're loud. I usually say, like, we leave quite awake, you know, like, when we are places anyway. And this is probably somewhat more in my imagination or I'm thinking about when everyone was, you know, under the age of six.
But sometimes it just kind of is easier. Feels easier to host.
And I have. Yeah. Over the years, I've encountered a lot of texts like yours and encounters with people and all this and saying, how can I be, like, I don't know, a more hospitable guest? I mean, you know, like, but. But. Or. Or think about why do I think it's easier to host? And I think part of it is, yeah, because I can kind of control the environment. You know, I, you know, even like, well, if it's time to put a kid to bed, their bedroom is upstairs. You know, that's easy. You know, that's an easy thing to do or, you know, whatever it might be.
Even as something as logistically like, I have pretty.
A pretty strict dietary constraint. Gosh, it's just easier for me to cook then, you know, than have to. I feel like I'm imposing and, you know, all this kind of other stuff.
But.
Yeah, so I start to ask, like, why and when I'm reading your book, and I'm like, oh, because there's kind of some power there when we're the host.
Yeah, I.
I didn't love reading that at first. It felt hard. It felt really hard to read that. But I'm so. I'm so glad that I did. And I'm hoping that you'll talk about it in a better way than me, because as you can tell, I'm still processing. I'm still processing that. But, yeah, maybe.
What kind of dynamic are you talking about when you're talking about power dynamics in hospitality, but especially as the host.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not something we think about, really. You just. Like, I just host and I do this and I'm more comfortable and I can manage things and it makes sense.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: And.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: And it's okay. Like, there's. It's okay.
I would say being a guest is incredibly vulnerable. Like, it can be incredibly vulnerable.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: You're opening yourself up to unknowns. You're opening yourself up to maybe something that might be uncomfortable. You're opening yourself up to somebody else's direction and guidance and. And if you're used to, like, having to run, you know, a home, I mean, I don't know what your role is in your family dynamics, but, like, if you're running a home and you're like, okay. I'm not running this anymore. You know, I mean, there are things that you have orchestrated to get down. I mean, they're. They're def. So. So you're. You're losing by being a guest. You're letting go of control, you're letting go of comfort, and you're letting go of the known.
So you were letting go of a lot. So I just want to say that.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: Can. What. Can I interrupt? Because this is.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Like, I'm having. This is. This is so awful. I interviewed another spiritual director earlier. This was last week, I guess. And I'm like, this is not good. You guys just have. There's something about spiritual directors. You just like. I think it's. I don't know. It's uncanny. I'm like, quit pulling stuff out of me. But I'm like, okay, but here. But when you're saying that, though, and I'm like, I'm feeling. I'm feeling what? I think the intent is. Like, you're talking to Alexis. You're talking to people who are used to hosting, right? This is a kind of. But immediately I started having this wild. It's like, okay, I know it's 101. Okay, but slow to process here, where I'm like, oh, my goodness.
I really think I have not thought about that enough how people must feel in those ways or might feel in those ways when they come to my house.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: You know, I think, oh, no. Do and not know that being vulnerable is bad or something. But, you know, like, oh, my goodness. How.
I probably haven't thought about it in the way that you just framed it. I probably haven't really thought about that when people are coming into my home, probably in part because when we lived in Houston for 15 years, like, a lot of the people we hosted were very dear friends that we had hosted over and over and over and over again. Some of that vulnerability begins to disappear.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Right?
[00:28:54] Speaker A: But even. But now we're in a new city, you know, just happened to make plans with some new friends here in a couple of weeks to have them over to the house, right? And I'm like, oh, yeah, there might be. Maybe not for everyone, but there might be some of those same feelings, apprehensions, you know, vulnerabilities that you just talked about when people come into my home for the first. For the first time. I'm sorry, I'm feeling a little bit dense when I'm saying that, but I'm just like, oh, my goodness. I want.
I want to keep that in mind more and care for people more thinking, oh, there might be a vulnerability that they're feeling or experiencing, even if they may not be able to name it in that way.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Because.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah, because I. I think that is some of the things that I feel when I go to someone else's house, too. You know, you kind of think, I don't know what the environment is like here necessarily, especially if it's the first time.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I love the insight. I love what's, you know, I want to say, messing with your head a little bit.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: But also, it's. It's leading you to a place of being able to. To empathize with the guest.
[00:30:04] Speaker A: 100. Yeah.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: And which leads you to seeing the guest, which leads you to meeting the guest where they are.
And that, ultimately is hospitality.
Like, to be able to see the people, to be able to know them, to be able to.
To have some insight into what they might be experiencing so that you, as the host, can go back to what your grandmother did, which is making them feel like they're the most precious thing that came in, that they're more important than the food. They're more important than, you know, the music that's on or whatever it is that they are the most important.
Now, I say all that, and I will say we hosted people a few weeks ago, and I didn't do that.
Like, I was.
It was something for my husband's work, and I knew the people coming in, but, like, I let my son answer the door, and I stayed in the kitchen. Right. Like. Like, we don't. This is why it's a practice. Like, I'm like, I know I kind of hid. Like, I kind of was, like, grumpy about something. I don't even know what, you know?
And then I eventually got over myself and got to the point where when we were sitting at the table, we could enjoy and talk. And I let my husband take care of serving dessert and coffee and tea, and he was glad to. He's like, you just sit there. Because I knew the moment I stood up, everybody else would follow my lead. And I was like, no, no, I need to stay seated. But so I just share that story. Just to say, like, we are learning and practicing and. And things come up, too, in us that just. We're like, well, that was like, Laura, you wrote a book on hospitality, and you did not get a gold star for that one. I mean, so it's not about that, but it is about looking back and go, what was I.
What was going on there that I hid like, why did I hide? Why did I not go out to meet? And it was because I just wanted to make sure all the food was out and it was warm and, you know, whatever. Whatever it was. And deep down, Alexis, I think there's a part of me.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: And, you know, I'm figuring out just, I think I need to reflect on and go, what, why did I want to hide? Like, what was it in my identity or anyway, so I need to take that to my spiritual director. So.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Well, it's, it's like a, it's like those dolls, you know, that come, that come open, like. Yeah, yeah. I, I want to hang on this guest thing for a minute because one of the things that you talk about in the book was Jesus choosing to be a guest. And I think there's like, lots of stories. Like, if we stop and think about gospel stories, even if you just take the low hanging fruit of like, Miracle at the wedding at Cana kind of thing, like, we see Jesus being a guest.
We see Jesus being a guest a lot. We see when people are asking to go home with Jesus, he's like, yeah, that's not gonna happen.
But people are receiving him and we don't get the vibe that he's like, not cool with it. Like, we don't get the vibe that he's like, no, no, no, no, no, let me, like, whatever. Like, I think if we kind of read into it a little bit, I mean, I think we get the vibe that he's like, yeah, like, I mean, even inviting himself to Zacchaeus's house, like, I'm gonna come hang out at your house.
Like, this was it the way the gospels are told? This is, I mean, this is what we read about. It feels more common. It feels common for Jesus. It doesn't feel like something that was, that was unusual.
And oh my gosh, there's Laura. When I think about, like, there's so. There's so much that I like, wish that we could cover. So I'll just say listeners, go grab the book about being, but being hosted as humans. You talk about Jesus, talk about creation, you should, you know, talk about all of these things. But, like, but being hosted. Maybe we, maybe we start with Jesus at least, and him being.
Him being hosted by others.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Yes. And I, I think that was his way of being human.
I think as, I mean, he. And he didn't enter as an adult. Right. He entered in the most vulnerable way and, and started in the most vulnerable way as he grew inside of Mary, as he came into the world I mean, he. He was.
He was first hosted in her womb. That was his first place. And that was such a vulnerable place, like.
And then as he entered the world, I mean, vulnerable to. To be raised by human parents, to be in a world that was full of brokenness and all these different things. I mean, you can read. So he. He chose to make himself vulnerable. And I think that's the thing as well, is shows us, is that we can also choose it.
That that vulnerability can be a choice. Now, sometimes we are pushed into places where we are vulnerable. So back to that conversation about home.
But then there are ways that we can choose to be vulnerable as guests. And I think one of the chapters in the book is God is the first host.
And that when we follow Jesus's way of. Of that vulnerability that we receive, that we choose to receive, whether it's creation, whether it's others, and that God first hosted us. I mean, he created the world. He created us, and he hosted us in the world. And so I. A lot of the work that I do is helping us, helping people come into a posture of receiving.
Um, it's not bad to do. It's not bad to produce. It's not bad to do those things, but to be able to receive and to first receive and then from that receiving, to be able to do and give, because that's our strength. Our strength is in receiving. Our strength is not in doing. And so to be able to receive that and just. And it is throughout the Gospels that Jesus makes himself vulnerable and receives.
Um, and it, you know, if you go to Philippians, I mean, he had to lay down power in order to do so. Right? I mean, so there's just. There is, There's a lot in the Gospels, once you. Once you start thinking about hospitality and guests and hosts and welcome, like, you start reading those stories and you're like, oh, my gosh, the dynamics are everywhere.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Can you say more about that phrase, our strength is in receiving? Because I think especially, you know, even as we have mentioned, just like American individualism and things like this, we're not really as communal as other cultures and societies. And receiving does not feel strong.
Like receiving feels like a show of weakness.
Receiving can feel embarrassing.
I mean, receiving can feel all sorts of things.
Very short anecdote. I remember during the pandemic, early days of the pandemic, we had neighbors who had just moved in.
I'm talking January or February of 2020. We did not know each other at all, but they had just moved in.
And this was way back. If People remember way back early 2020, when we're still trying to figure out, is it safe to go to the grocery store where, I mean, obviously we're masking when we can get out, you know, things like that. And we're not out of the house very often. And she had two kids, and we had our kids. And I remember her knocking on the door one day, the mama of that house, and saying something like, I was at the store and I bought an extra gallon of milk and a bag of oatmeal for you guys.
And I.
I don't know what was wrong with me. I. Well, I do. I mean, my therapist could tell you. But anyway, it took everything in me to just receive that with joy and gratitude because it felt.
Not just vulnerable, it felt all the other things that I was thinking, you know, I don't know if I would have said right then that it felt weak, but it was kind of like, no, I'm. I'm supposed to be the one who helps you. Why? I don't know, but I don't think that's. I don't think that's specific to me.
I feel like it's not at least that we might feel that way. Like we're supposed to be the ones who give, not the ones who are.
Who are taking, maybe even Christian lives. As I was saying that I'm hearing myself, it's more blessed to give than to receive. Right. And so anyway, to say that there's strength in receiving, I don't think it's gonna. I don't think it's just messing with my head. I have a feeling it's probably messing with. With other people's heads, too.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's contradictory, right?
Yeah, it is. It sounds contradictory, right, that. That in receiving we are strengthened a few things. One is like, it. It takes on the. The lie that we are strong enough or that all of our strength is. Is. Is in us and that we don't need strength from outside, which is counter to the gospel. It's counter to. Right. I mean, I'm going to say all these things and be like. And it's counter to Jesus, and it's. And we know we, like, we're like, oh, yeah. In our heads. Yes, yes, yes. But it's this. It's. And I think that that's what Jesus does, right? He undoes these ways of being.
So he. I think he's undoing something, right? This theology that we have about strength and weakness.
But I think the other thing that he's doing is he's inviting us to a way of being loved. And I say that because your story includes a stranger who showed, who saw you, who thought of you, and who, I don't know, which, I mean, probably like a five dollar sacrifice, but. But gave up something of hers for you.
And it wasn't really about the milk and the oatmeal.
It was about her moving towards you and thinking of you and expressing care for you.
Now, that strengthens us in a part of ourselves that we can't explain.
And that type of strength is love that you are loved and thought of. And so when we are. When we are in these places of receiving or weakness or whatever it is, there are opportunities for us to receive somebody's thoughtfulness, somebody's love and somebody's care. And that strengthens us deep within in a way that we can't make it a metric or explain, but it deepens who we are and it deepens our connection with that person as human beings.
And so there is strengthening that's happening in us and in that relationship and in that community.
And so I think that's one way that we are strengthened in receiving.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: Gosh, that's really good.
Yeah. Thank you for exploring that with me.
Okay.
I'm trying to think of what question I want to ask. Ask you next, but I think I want to ask about.
You had a section in your book on endings.
And initially, I will just go ahead and say it. It felt a little odd in a book on hospitality to include a section on endings, but I think I get it. But I'm going to invite. I want to invite you to talk more about that again, because even as we open this, this is a broader expression of practicing hospitality than some of us might initially think of.
So. Yeah, so talk about why that and what's the connection to hospitality.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for asking that, because I even talked to my editor about, do I end with the spiritual practice of confession?
Do I end a book with that practice? I'm so to liturgy, you know, in worship services, at confessions, kind of on the front end of things and things like that. I said, is this a strange place to. To end something?
So your awkwardness is. Is equally felt by. By me who wrote it. So.
But what. You know, I was exploring this with some Australian friends that have a great coffee shop here, and we were talking about welcome and hospitality, and they do it so well.
And, and I explore more of what they talk about in the book, but we talked about endings and how endings often matter more than beginnings. And it's the Moments that people remember.
And it's when somebody says goodbye and thank you. It's when somebody, you know, I'm in the. In Texas, you know, kind of sort of in the South. It depends on who you are. Some people call us Texans, some people call us Southern. But you walk somebody to the door or you walks me to the car and you go, there's something about that last moment. And even you see, in research and of being human, like, we remember people's last words. Like, there's something about those last moments that linger. And in those last moments, there are opportunities for connection and gratitude and, hey, I hope to see you again, or let's plan for next time. So. So it's like this opportunity to go, hey, let's do this again, or, hey, you're welcome again. And so it. It's this continuity of welcome to that welcome wasn't just this moment in this time, but that welcome continues.
And so I've often said. I was like, I think people in the church space, we need greeters that welcome. We need people that say goodbye. Like, we need the goodbyers, you know. And so. But we talk. But he said, my coffee shop friend, he said.
He said, you know, we call it closing the loop. And we have found that it is very important to close the loop as a sense of welcome for others.
And I love when closings are possible, and sometimes they aren't, which makes it really hard for people, especially when they've lost somebody or when a relationship, you know, just all of a sudden no longer exists. Or. Let's just talk about ghosting. When you just get ghosted and abandoned, like, that is just not a great feeling.
And there's a sense in us as humans that we want some type of closure.
And so in hospitality, you can close well with gratitude, but you can also close well when there's a restoration or repair needed.
I think sometimes there's pain that happens in spaces. There's pains that happen between people. And so the work of repair is a way of restoring relationship. It's a way of welcoming somebody back into your relationship.
You see that in Jesus when he does that with Peter specifically, he does that with others as well. But you see that, that restoration and this reminder of, no, no, we're connected.
No, there is forgiveness here. We have reconciliation. And so what endings and closings do is they allow for new beginnings.
And that really is right, the life, death, and resurrection. Right? Like. Like that you live, something dies. Or maybe we have to confess something, or we need to go restore something, and then There's a resurrection life you get to live in too, to. And so living into that resurrection life.
So those closings and endings allow for that and for hospitality not to be a one time event, for it to be ongoing.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: This was another. I'm, I'm, you know, talk about confession. I'm confessing all of my things right now, Laura, because there was, I want to say it was here I, I wrote. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. You have a sentence when you talk about Peter. I, I struggle with Peter sometimes, you know, I just, I just do. I struggle with Paul.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: So. Yeah, I still
[00:48:12] Speaker A: go to Paul too, but I struggle with Peter sometimes. But still the beach story of Peter is one of my favorites. But here's, here's my confession. Yes, I have a seminary degree. Yes, I'm still in seminary. Yes, I've preached a handful of sermons. And you right. Peter had not been present for Jesus death.
And I had to read that about six times because I'm like, I guess that is the logical conclusion.
I don't know, is it? Like anytime I had ever imagined this, I don't know why I see Peter hiding. I imagine him hearing the rooster. I imagine him having these conversations. I imagine all of this.
But somehow my imagination omitted, has always omitted. I guess that when Jesus is actually being crucified, he is not one of the ones who is present there.
Like there's a.
Some of Jesus, like real type people are there, the women are there.
We know that much.
And I'm like, Peter's not there. I don't know. I guess probably because in their relationship I had imagined that like it was one of those things where he like kind of got it together like before he actually, you know, like. But to think about Peter, I don't know, it just deepened that my imagined need for repair work afterwards, you know, like even more like they were tight like this whole time. And it wasn't just like. I don't know, I guess maybe it was like kind of he got his act together before he was actually on his deathbed kind of thing, you know, like he kind of, he had his moments. But like when it came down to it and when Jesus actually died, he was like, probably sitting there.
But I think you're right.
And that like blew my mind to think about how like we know Peter didn't close that well.
[00:50:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: But I think I didn't realize, like, how, I don't know, there was something in it where I was like, I. Like my note to the book on the bottom was, wait, what?
Like that was my, like, profile.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: You just said, like, you assume that he had gotten his act together and he showed up, you know, And I, I just, I. We all make assumptions, right, in scripture and.
But it shows, like, what we're thinking, right? That, no, he didn't get anything together. Like, he. And maybe he couldn't have. Who knows what he was feeling after those denials. Like, who knows what was going. We know that he was hiding. I mean, we. We know that. That, you know, he wasn't there.
And the. I think the. Gosh, the beauty of being people who are reconcilers or restorers and choosing that is a beautiful way to be a host.
That Jesus, like, is like, I know Peter didn't have his act together. I know he wasn't there. I know. And that actually, as a host is a way of being vulnerable. Right? To go, I'm going to move towards somebody who caused deep pain and who left and was absent.
But I'm going to go remind them, this is how I see you, this is who you are, and this is how we are.
Now, whether they accept it or not is another story. But that is a way that even as hosts, we're vulnerable.
But to choose to use our power in that way, because power isn't just used negatively, it's used in really great ways. And so to be a host that can use it in such a positive way, in hopefulness of restoration, I mean, that's really a lot of what that ending is, is choosing to go back and say, if I can.
Let's see if we can change this ending. Let's see if we can restore this ending and see what might be, what might become.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you said at the top of that, it's not. It's not always possible, but sometimes it is.
Yeah. And that's a brave and vulnerable thing to explore that. When you think it might be.
I want to ask you to.
As we kind of start to wind down the conversation, I want to ask you to talk about.
I'm going to use the word practicality. And I think for someone like me, I have a very dear friend who is a spiritual director, and I always remind her that I'm not a contemplative.
I'm like, I know, I know, like the spiritual directors. And I'm like, it feels real easy for me to be like, yeah, that's one of these things, is not like the other. And it's me. Right, right. But so practice. So when I say practicality, it feels a little bit different to me, maybe, But I, I will say I want to ask you to talk about practicality, like the posture of hospitality. One of the things I say, I, I think it might be in the intro, this, I don't remember when I recorded a long time ago, but I talked about having the posture of a learner.
So I think we're familiar with kind of posturing ourselves in a certain way.
But one of the things that you do in this book, which is great and it is, I think, also practical, is that you close the chapters with, as we talked about at the beginning, even the subtitle, with spiritual practices.
So I mentioned your spiritual director and you kind of guide us through some practices that we could explore that have to do with whatever the chapters are.
And I found myself, don't tell my friend because maybe she'll ask me about it, but I found myself dog earring, some of these to say, oh, yeah, even I could do that. You know, even, even I could, you know, even I could start to do that or look or look for something in these kinds of ways.
So it's not like practical when I say that it's not like you're Martha Stewart and you're going to tell us the best way to like arrange our stuff on a tray or something like that. Like this practical is broader and different than that, even in having a posture of hospitality. So will you talk about that?
[00:55:15] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I do like to be practical and I also like to, I call them like beach entry practices. Like, like these are beach entry. Like we can all do it. We can walk in, right? I'm not throwing you cannonball and into the deep end. Like, go do this thing. Right? And this probably has to do with, you know, as I'm getting older and stuff, I'm like, oh, those smaller, more consistent practices really build up something over time rather than the, you know. Yes, you have big dynamic things too you can do. But you know, some of those smaller things really do add up. So, and I'm just practical because life, I mean, life, you know, family, work, I mean, just different things.
So yes, very practical on that. They're, they're shorter. They are reflective. So I'm going to ask you to be reflective on things. But a lot of them really require slowing down.
So that's the main thing, slowing down. And in the, slowing down in the margin, making, just noticing, like noticing what you tend to do, noticing how you respond.
So there is a lot of reflection.
But the idea is, is that your posture doesn't change overnight.
Your posture changes over time. So even if you think about your physical posture, right, you will do small exercises to get to a posture that you need to get to or you'll have things that help you to do that.
And so these practices are meant to help in your posture.
And what that means is that you carry it with you wherever you go, right? Just like your physical posture, you're carrying it with you wherever you go, that you're carrying hospitality with you. And it might include small things like, you know, this is going to sound horrible to some people, but instead of going to the self checkout lane in the grocery store or instead of doing like a pickup order, like you go and you actually get in line with a person and you ask them just in the few minutes like how their day is, right? So you slow down, you slow down in conversation with a family member, right? You sit down and you, you ask them to explore. I'm, I'm at the place where I'm shifting from. Well, I should have shifted a long time ago, but I'm still trying to shift from answering my kids questions or responding to my kids questions with an answer rather than responding to my kids questions with curiosity because they are at the age where answers are not what they're looking for anymore. And I either again, long beyond that, but I'm still trying to solve things. And so as, as I'm in my questions even of them or in my tell me more, right, that I'm opening up a space for them to share rather than me assuming that I'm going to solve something. So that's another way to do it. So there's all these little, just daily practices and then there's the practices in the book that just over time, over time you find yourself being strengthened and then maybe one day you surprise yourself. You're like, oh wait, I allowed more space in that time. I allowed, I got to see something about that person that I didn't notice before. I got to ask them something. I got to explore with them. And so usually those things catch us by surprise after some time of practicing.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: I saw a meme last night. I told my husband, I'm like, oh my goodness, this is so me. And it said something like, I just went to Trader Joe's and the cashier didn't ask me how my day was and didn't comment that he liked one of the items that I was buying. Is he mad at me?
But it's like, but that's one of the things even like you talk about your coffee friends, you know, your Australian coffee friends friends. It's like, sometimes we realize maybe after the fact that that's why we appreciate going to a place, you know, so much is like, there's all these little practices of hospitality where you're like, I'll go to Trader Joe's over going to Walmart if I need to run in and grab a couple of GF items, because partially because, you know, like, the store is smaller or the people are going to be so helpful, or someone's going to say, how am I? And ooh, I love that popcorn, too. And you just maybe don't think about it, or maybe, you know, you're like, oh, that doesn't really make much of a difference. But it really.
[00:59:37] Speaker B: It does, you know, but it really does.
[00:59:39] Speaker A: But it really does on both sides, you know, because as you mentioned, we're just.
We're interconnected and receiving is strengthening and.
And all of those. And all of those things.
I will just mention one practice that I did, dog ear, that felt very doable for me, which was the centering prayer.
I thought, oh, when I was first introduced to centering prayer, I was like, I cannot do this. Like, I just. I cannot. There's nothing about me. And I tried it. I tried it a few times, and I'm like, I cannot.
I cannot do centering prayer.
But the way that you described it, I thought I could do that.
I really think I could. I think I could do 10 minutes instead of 25. I think I could, you know, I could do. Yeah, I could read this short passage and come back to this.
But it felt very doable. But also, it was as you described.
It was very good for me to revisit that in spiritual practices. It's the same, Very similar as in some of these physical practices. Yes. We all say, oh, I'll park a little further out or I'll take the stairs instead of the elevator or whatever. And it's like, no, that's not going to make us like Ironman triathlete. But it is going to make a difference in just how we live our lives and whether or not our watches beep at us and things like that. And so these little ones, like, wow, how might we encounter God's presence? Or how might we become a welcome, welcoming presence for others when I take this moment to, like, spiritually just take the stairs or, you know, perk a little further out, more often than not, you know, how might that make a difference?
[01:01:28] Speaker B: I will say, I love that you chose a receiving practice.
I'll just say. I'll just say that. Just notice how that you're drawn to that.
[01:01:37] Speaker A: I'm trying and I didn't even think about it, but now I will that it was now that I was receiving one.
Laura, I'm wondering if you would.
Maybe I'm.
I don't want to, like, put this last little bit in a box for you, but I'm trying to think of kind of a welcoming way to end this. And I'm wondering if maybe there's a question that you could leave us with. Like something that might pique our own curiosities about our own contexts or practices that would get our. Get our minds and spirits stirring when it comes to the practice and posture of hospitality.
Yeah. Something that maybe we could ask ourselves or ask of God. When we spend time this week, as we go about our week about hospitality and our. Yeah, our context or practices,
[01:02:47] Speaker B: The question that comes up for me is who does God already have that is offering you a space of hospitality, a space of welcome, a space of being known and to be able to notice those people and to be able to receive from those people and not to kind of push it off or, or say no big deal, but truly to be able to savor somebody else's seeing and welcoming of you. So just say look around, look around and see who there might be.
[01:03:27] Speaker A: That's good. Thank you, Laura. I'm so thrilled to share this space with you today. The name of the book again is Becoming a Person of the Spiritual Practice of Hospitality. And I will have the link to where people can grab a copy of that in the show notes and I encourage people to do that. It's a short volume, but it is really fun and meaningful to read. The stories are great and also the questions and practices are really great, too. So thanks again for coming on.
[01:04:00] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[01:04:03] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit
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