Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay. So it is not every day that I get to sit across zoom from someone who loves podcasting. I mean, probably more than I do, I would say equally as much as I do, but I'm here with Dr. Doug Bursch and we're going to talk about his new book posting piece, but before we do, I just want to say that I listened to the intro to one of your recent episodes. And you talk about doing this when you're in the nursing home with no mic and no recording, because it's just so much fun. And I have to tell you, when anyone asks me, how's the podcast going? I'm like, look, I'm having more fun than people should have.
Speaker 1 00:01:17 Well, my joke is, uh, uh, pretty soon everyone's going to have a podcast and we're just going to make it and pass it to the person on the right. So, uh, but yeah, I, I enjoy it. You know, for me, I'm a very talkative person, so an opportunity to share something and if people want to listen, they can listen. I mean, I love that.
Speaker 0 00:01:34 No, I love it too. I love it too, but you're not, I mean, you're talking to a person. Sure. But you're also a writer and you're a pastor, which I think probably goes along with that, uh, with that talkative nature and you're a seminary grad. So can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and your context before we get into talking about the book?
Speaker 1 00:01:56 Hm. Well, I always, I wonder what I want to share. I've found like the longer the introduction, sometimes I don't like the guy I'm like, Oh, this guy has done too much, but, uh, yeah. You know, you, you kind of hit that. I certainly have a certain educational background. Uh, the doctorate of ministry, I just finished recently, which to me is a big deals. I'm dyslexic. And so learning was always a real challenge for me. And so the fact that I made it that far is a miracle and that has a lot to do with my parents helping me. So there's that aspect. Uh, I have, you know, the biggest thing I'm most happy about is that my, my wife and my marriage and four kids and the family, you know, they're, they're not impressed with any of the stuff I do. They could care less, whether I'm a writer or how big our churches, they just care about the fact that I love them and they love me.
Speaker 1 00:02:41 So, yeah. And then I passed pastor a normal sized church of less than a hundred people. And I've been doing that for like 22 years, actually. I don't know how many people will be there when COVID is all over. As far as, uh, you know, it's been, not that they've died, but just they've gone in different directions, but, you know, trying my best and what it is, like do that. And then I do this other thing that I kind of call a vandalism and it's just the, the radio broadcast. I've done the podcasts, the writing, it's just stuff outside the local church that I like to do.
Speaker 0 00:03:11 So the book that, I mean, it comes out next week
Speaker 1 00:03:16 Or something, seven days, April 20th,
Speaker 0 00:03:18 April 20th. I'm so excited. So actually I think that the way that this is going, if you're listening to this recording, I think we're going to say it comes out tomorrow. Like if you listen to this on the day it drops, I think it's going to come out tomorrow. So you'll still have time to pre-order it barely, um, you know, but go ahead and order a copy. It's fantastic. I just finished it this morning. Um, it's called posting peace. Why social media divides us and what we can do about it. And I've been dragging it around the house. So we have four kids too. I'm a dragging around the house. And the other night I was upstairs, I was tending to one of our kids and, um, you know, kind of doing the bedtime thing and stuff. And I asked one of my daughters, Hey, can you bring me my readers and my book? And she's the one with the emojis all over it. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:04:04 Yeah. It's a very brightly covered emoji cover. And I liked what Ivy press has done with this. Uh, it's funny, you know, I need readers, but I don't want to admit to it. And so if you see my life half the time, I'm squinting looking clothes in front of the church, trying to read the Bible. Can't, you know, so I'm in that stage where I don't want to admit it.
Speaker 0 00:04:24 I don't believe in karma, but if I did, I would say I have to own it because for years I would tease my mother. Right. I would, I would hold things really far away from her face. Right. I'd get her a birthday card and I'd say, mom, do you need me to hold it on the other side of the room? So you can read it, you know, when she was going through that transition. And so I got mine, my eye doctor said like five years earlier than what she would expect someone money readers. So I just have to own that probably has something to do with me, choosing my mom for all this.
Speaker 1 00:04:55 I always joke. I, um, if you've ever seen like a prosperity gospel person, who's like, if you love the Lord, you'll never get sick. You'll always be healthy. And go on, let me show you where that is in the Bible. And then they put their reader glasses on to read this text that tells you you're never going to get sick. And I believe in healing and such, but I'm like, dude, your eyes are sick. I mean, they're, they're declining. That's not a sign of your, your health and wellness. So I used to joke with people when they would put their glasses on, I go, I don't need glasses because I'm anointed. And that was my joke. And I think maybe God was like, Hmm, we'll see about that. So I don't see as well anymore.
Speaker 0 00:05:32 So you need to get the large print version of the book and large print version of your Bible out. Um, no, I love it so much. Now you mentioned that you did radio shows and I'm saying like we're in like 80 something episode of the podcast right now. And so when I read, Oh, he's done 1200. Yeah. I guess I'm like, come again. What, but I do. I want you to talk about that. You, you introduce that and what you were doing and how you were doing something on the radio, trying to sell someone that something that no one else wanted to buy.
Speaker 1 00:06:07 Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is interesting because you think I get sick of hearing my voice. I don't know I've done a, I probably a couple of hundred podcasts, but before that I did a daily radio show drive time talk radio four to 6:00 PM. So it's a two hour show. You got four segments, commercial breaks in between, by the way, I'll have to pause every 10 minutes for a commercial. So you'll have to speak amongst yourselves. But, uh, and so I had also produced the show cause they didn't give you that much money, Christian radio. They did not pay you well. And so, yeah, it was just producing a show Monday through Friday, trying to figure out if I could do something new stories, interview a few people and wax eloquently, or just talk about things, even if I knew nothing about them. So that was, that was basically what I did.
Speaker 1 00:06:51 But you mentioned in the book, this is, I tried to do a moderate, um, well, not just a moderate radio show, cause I'm not moderate. I tried to do an inclusive radio show that would include conservatives and progresses and moderates because I believe God is not a Republican or a Democrat. I don't think he's green party either. And he's also not even an American. So I thought maybe we could do a show and get some tweets on that day. How dare you? Because you know, by the way God's in timetable is based on America. Even that arrogance of like, well, Christ is returning because of the next election, like God is just looking at America. You know, it could be, I don't know. It could be Ghana is where his in tape, that concept is so absurd. But anyway, so I tried to do now I'm realizing why it wasn't very successful as I'm talking, I'm like this doesn't build an audience, but I wanted to build an audience, have active discussion to talk about what we agreed on.
Speaker 1 00:07:46 I thought people wanted that. I thought they were tired of the polarizing divisiveness. Oh, I was so wrong because I actually quit radio, you know, right before, or right during Trump and Hillary Clinton were running for president. And as you know, it is just only exaggerated. And what I've actually found is the stuff that I saw on talk radio is now just happening everywhere. Everyone's their own talk show, hosts, their little internet talk show Jesus. And it's, it really is. Uh, you know, that's kind of why I decided to write the book is what's going on? Why have we become so polarized?
Speaker 0 00:08:19 No, that's it. I found myself just kind of like completely understanding your perspective and almost like, almost like labeling it, like, like a felt need, you know, like I can see this. I can, I can see what people, what people need and what people want. And I could, I could feel that tension with also me just cackling, just thinking like how completely absurd that someone would think that we just, we, we long for that. Right? Like we long for something that's just not totally polarizing. No we don't, you know?
Speaker 1 00:08:48 Yeah. I th you know, that night Eva take me and I'm glad you're pointing it out. Um, there's a part of me that's incredibly and gets depressed and frustrated. And then there's this optimistic. If I just preach the right message, I can change the world. And, you know, I joke like, you know, my parents, um, I'm always positive about what their next step is. And I joke with my, my brothers and sisters that I'm going to be standing over their grave and mom will clearly be dead and with the Lord, and I'll still be like, I don't know, it looks like she's going to turn around. It looks like things are going to change. You know, so there's a part of my nature, uh, that goes for that. But I also think it's part of the contending for what God wants to do is we're called to the ministry of reconciliation. So my assumption is that Christians would want a broadcast, a book content that highlighted our goal of existing is not just to be right, to rally a bunch of people around our ideology, but actually to preach a message that transforms lives and makes room for people that are different from us.
Speaker 0 00:09:50 Yeah, no, I mean, that's, I, I completely agree. And I think that your, um, boldness and your, and your courage, uh, and there's another word I'm looking for, but I think, I think just, um, just, just that you are, are just that you're bold enough to say that and to say, let's see what we can do as far as the ministry of reconciliation over the medium of social media is kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 00:10:21 Yeah, it is. I, and I really, I don't like conflict yet. I know some people are just going to hate this book because it does challenge some of our behaviors. Now I'm all for internet communication, social media. I use it. There's all kinds of benefits, but I am challenging people that we have to be responsible for how we communicate and particularly Christians. It shouldn't just be that we have different content, but we have a different way of communicating online that distinguishes us from the rest of the people on the face of the earth. And I know the first response when you get confronted is defensiveness. And so I can just see, and I'm, my goal is not to attack people. It's to get people, to look at their own life. But I know what happens is when someone feels like the way they communicate is being judged by someone, I'm going to get some lovely responses to this book that I'll just have to navigate.
Speaker 0 00:11:13 Well, I can tell you that I, um, I'm not, I am, I'm not a huge social media user. Um, so I would just say like, I totally, you're not going to get any, any angry tweets from me about this. I loved it and I didn't feel judged or, uh, you know, anything like that by it. But I did relate to, um, kind of, I think, I think we're, we're both a little bit older. We're not like, you know, the generation, that's kind of growing up with this as part of their everyday lifestyle, but I also kind of pushed back against it when it first came out, right. Thinking, Oh, I'm going to be the person who just, who just goes and doesn't have to utilize that as a part of my life. Right. So years ago, probably it's probably 11 years ago. I was only on Facebook because my best friend moved across the country and we decided this would be a decent way for us to share photos, you know, with each other and be able to, to kind of communicate. And we were of the generation when we could be on Facebook. A lot of people are gonna think I'm, um, I'm fibbing here, but there was a time when you could only get this with an EDU email address. Like you had to be a college student to get on Facebook, to have a log on. Right. Do you remember this? You had to,
Speaker 1 00:12:30 What are you back in?
Speaker 0 00:12:35 Right. It's the truth yet? You had to have an EDU.
Speaker 1 00:12:38 I remember that I was hitching my wagon. I was churning butter. And someone said, would you like to be on your Facebook? And I was like, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 0 00:12:49 This was way back when right. This was, this was way back when, but I got off of it. That was the only social media I used at the time. And I got off of it because I was frustrated with the algorithm. Right. Because I was seeing stuff come up from some, someone, you know, people who I didn't, I wasn't friends with them on Facebook, but they were friends with my friends. And so for some reason I was seeing some things come up in my newsfeed that they were doing. And the truth is if I'm just really being honest, as I was hardcore, judging their posts in my heart. And it took me like longer than I want to admit to just say, okay, Lex, you've just got to complete, like you, if Jesus says, you've got to cut off your hand, you're going to have to cut off your login.
Speaker 0 00:13:33 Like, you're just going to have to not do this until you can deal with it better. Right. And so I did, and I put a little post-it note on my, on my laptop, um, at the time. And it said, Lex do not log onto Facebook. Like, because it was just like muscle memory. Right. Like I would do that. And I lived that way for a really long time with absolutely being on no social media whatsoever. And I naively thought, well, I, people, people can just live their lives this way. Like we can just do that. But the truth is that most of us just don't. Yeah. And this is, this is like saying, well, I'm just not going to call someone. I'm just not going to have a phone conversation. I'm just not going to have an email address what that's done.
Speaker 1 00:14:10 Of course. Yeah. Well, it's, it's farming as too. And I, that's the thing to me, it's relevant to people, whether they use social media a lot or not at all, because it's still forming our culture and it's forming our relationships. And, uh, and I also think people miss out, I would challenge the person. Who's like, yeah, I just don't do that. Well, if you want to connect with your kids and your grandkids, then learn how to do it at some level, because there's some powerful benefits, even concepts of like some people are like, I don't text or whatever. I can have group texts with my kids all over the U S that are really fun. That connect us. They're powerful things. Social media technology can be used to connect us in some amazing ways. But the thing is this, this media, and this is where I'm, I'm even more interested in the why we're becoming the way we're becoming than what to do in response to it.
Speaker 1 00:14:56 A lot of Christian books are, here's the five things you do, the 10 things you do. I think there's a little bit of arrogance in that, but I do think it's important to look at why is our culture becoming this way? And what we're not realizing is the medium of social media is actually forming us. It's changing how we communicate and what we communicate. And the way it's influencing us online is now also filtering into our in-person interactions as well. So you might not even be using the technology, but you still want to know what's happening because there's a reason we're treating people the way we're treating them in person. And a lot of it has to do with what the online world is teaching us about relationships and all sorts of other issues of how humans, you know, gathered together.
Speaker 0 00:15:38 I'm so glad you pulled us back because I'm hoping you'll take that and run with this idea that you talk about of, um, detached, uh, individualism networked individualism that was like, blow my mind. Fascinating. And, and I think it's, I think it's along the lines of what you're talking about, right? So like in the way that it's forming our culture and how we see and view and interact in relationships,
Speaker 1 00:16:04 I got to tell you, it's hard for me to do this interview because you're one of the few people who've read the book when they're interviewing me. So I'm just shocked when you use some of my words. I'm like, wow, I don't know what to do. I'm just kind of a little, but yeah. Well, one of the things I first established as any technology, uh, extends our numbs human capacity. And so an example of this is like the car, you know what part of the human, this is kind of fun to just think about any technology. Now I do it with everything. Marshall McLuhan said this, a technological theorist of all technology extends some form of human capacity or end, but as it extends it and numbs it. So the car, if you ask someone, what does the car extend? Well, the car extends the human capacity to walk mobility, the ability to go forward.
Speaker 1 00:16:50 And, and that's wonderful. It allows us to go way farther than we could ever go before, but as it extends our capacity, it numbs it. And so what are we all, we're all lazy. We're all, uh, we can't walk very far. You know, Jesus walked thousands of miles. Paul walked, you know, we get tired walking to our car in the parking lot, right? So that's a principle of technology. Does that make it bad or good? No, those are just strengths and weaknesses. Well, this is what social media is doing. What is human capacity? Is it extending well, lots of things, right? But one is our desire to connect with people, our desire to communicate and be heard and, you know, our voice, it extends our voice. It extends our ability to connect. So it's extending those things and we could just focus in on the positives, but the problem is it's also numbing the same capacities.
Speaker 1 00:17:36 So we're not as capable of walking through conflicts with people of dealing with the complexities of, of relationships, because it's so easy to form those relationships, but it's becoming harder for us to maintain relationships or to form and maintain meaningful, deep relationships. So that's what our technology is doing. It's extending our capacity and it's numbing it. And that's where you brought up the word. Um, when, when we talk about networked individualism, a strength of social media is I can take my individualism and I can find anything online to meet my needs, whatever it is. So let's say I'm a big star Wars fan. I can Google star Wars, and I can just find a whole world. I could live in the world of star Wars, right? And, but that works theologically. I have certain theological convictions. I can find people to meet those convictions, or I just hate the church.
Speaker 1 00:18:29 I just hate the church. I want to find out the people hate the church, or I'm a Christian who hates the church. I'm an atheist who hates the church and we can segment ourselves into all these areas. And why it's called network. Individualism is we are networking based on our individualistic needs. Uh, the problem with this is now people are becoming basically just like products to fulfill for self fulfillment. And they're very weak tie relationships. It's just, I'm uniting with people based on that one issue. And I'm uniting one of them as much as they fulfill my individualistic needs. What we're finding online is that the moment that person doesn't meet my individualistic needs, I just go somewhere else. I just, I don't want that product anymore. I don't like that meal. And I go get a meal somewhere else. I don't like that entertainment.
Speaker 1 00:19:14 There I go get entertainment somewhere else. And we're treating relationships like products, or like restaurants we'd go to are, are, you know, movies are entertainment that as much as it meets our need, we watch it. We consume it. We abide with it. The moment it doesn't meet our needs, we block it, mute it, indifference, move in another direction. And this is a problem when it comes to Christians. Cause our job is to form a people that will bless the rest of the people on the face of the earth and to form a people that means we need to form relationships that are meaningful and deeper than just self-interest. Uh, reconciliation means I work with people contrary to me are different. I diverse or from different perspectives that goes against this networked individualism because we don't witness the people because it's easy on us. We don't interact with people because it meets our, our self needs. We do it from a calling from mandate, from Christ in us. And so that I think is where we're seeing this tension with Christians is we have these competing interests right now, primarily social media, internet communication is, is for individualistic needs. And that doesn't work well when it comes to the Christian mandate to reconcile and to form a community.
Speaker 0 00:20:28 Yeah. And you, you can trust that in the book with, um, with the way that relationships were primarily formed prior to the use of social media, right? So neighborhoods and churches and schools and, um, you know, tangible physical communities of people around us in friendships and relationships that formed in those ways. And as you were talking just now, I was thinking about how I feel like in me, and I'm probably not alone in this, in this formation part, part of what I have found. And in this, you know, kind of in these, uh, less secure parts of myself is that I end up not giving people whether they're on social media or specifically, I'm thinking about the people around me, in my physical relationships, uh, near to me, I ended up not giving them as much credit relationally as they probably really deserve as whole people. Right. Because I think I see so much of this, you know, social media, you know, unfollow, unfriend block, you know, mute whatever, and then think, Oh no, I, I made a mistake or I disagreed with my neighbor or this person. And then I kind of have this fear. They're going to block me. Well, you know, what's going to happen to our friendship. Right. And it's not giving them enough credit.
Speaker 1 00:21:39 Yeah. Well, there there's some, one of the things I'm hoping with a book is it gets people to think about things that aren't written in the book. I mean, because I want the mind to go on a hundred different directions. And one of the biggest things, this is probably what I got the most out of my research. And this came out of doctoral research and is the concept of why we don't reconcile a lot of times, there's this narrative, the reason people don't reconcile today is we're just bad. We're bad people getting worse in the past. They did a better job because there were better people. And we make a very moral, ethical argument. But I don't think that's the main reason. The main reason is what you brought up there is in the past, let's say before the car, um, what was your network of people you could interact with what it's like, basically people in walking distance.
Speaker 1 00:22:25 I mean, you can hitch up the horse I guess, but that takes a lot of work, right? So you think about how many people did you actually have the potential of even sharing life with a finding information from is a very few people. People in walking distance maybe have two or three churches. So what does it mean? Why do you get along with people in that culture? Because you have to, because if you don't get along with them, there's no people, if you don't know your neighbors and get along with your neighbors, there's no go online and find other people. That's it. That's your information. That's your education? That's your social reality? Why do you have to get along with a church? That's not very good or messy because you've got three churches in town and you can't hop from church to church. Now this isn't necessarily good that there were a lot of problems with society like that.
Speaker 1 00:23:11 Right? What would happen? You'd have a neighbor that could control everyone. You could have a pastor who control people. People couldn't go anywhere else. So the strength of social media is we are not, we don't have to work with a terrible neighbor and a terrible pastor, and we can escape those, those gatekeepers. That's a good thing. But what we're finding is we don't have to do the difficult work of walking through a conflict with someone because we can just go to someone else. There's thousands of churches. I can find. There's thousands of friends I can find. And you hit at the as well. Um, we also have this fear that my relationship is so tenuous that if I say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, or don't unite in their political issue or theological issue, that relationships immediately going to break. And so you find this anxiety, right?
Speaker 1 00:23:59 A youth find this where they have thousands of friends, but they don't really feel known by anyone or accepted by anyone. And they feel like they constantly have to maintain their friendships by posting things, by showing this idealized self. Because if they don't, they disappear, that's a common thing. People think I would just disappear. No one would even know I'm here because I'm trying to interact with people through a trending topic or through some sort of thing that makes me connect with them. That's not a strong tie relationship. A strong tie relationship is not just about, in fact, it's a marriage, right? A marriage is you don't agree about everything. There's some central things you agree. But what makes us strong is the diversity of opinions, the healthy disagreements, the arguments, the difference of personality, right? So what you're actually finding, and I think we're gonna find more of this. People have fewer, is it fewer or less? Grammarians out there please correct me on this fewer or less. I'm going to say both. You have fewer or less, uh, strong tie relationships and more weak tie. So then what, where does all the stress points happen on the strong tie relationships? You're not connected with anyone online. You're just kind of randomly, and then you just unload on your spouse because everyone else you think is going to leave you and reject you. And so you put all of that fear on your spouse.
Speaker 2 00:25:12 Well,
Speaker 1 00:25:15 I know it's happening. I think even the tension is because we're so we're walking on eggshells with everybody else. And so then with a spouse, we just let it unfiltered, you know, except me, my poor wretches, I am. So these are big societal issues. That internet is forming us in this way. We're not bad people. We're just people being influenced by technology that exaggerates the best and worst of humanity.
Speaker 0 00:25:40 Yeah, no, you're, you're spot on on that. And now I'm going to hopefully bring, this is like this. You didn't know that there was this part of the show where I bring it together, some puzzle pieces from your text, and then I ask you to connect them for us. Okay. That are completely unrelated. So yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:55 No, but I was surprised or something. No, there's no price.
Speaker 1 00:26:00 I can't remember what I just said. So if you're, if you bring it up too much, I might not do it. So, yes.
Speaker 2 00:26:04 Right, right. Okay. So, so, but, but
Speaker 0 00:26:07 What you're talking about with these strong ties and weak ties, because I think it's, it's, it's not just what you just said, that we end up kind of unloading and stressing out our strong, tight relationships. Well, that's not because we're not expressing ourselves in our weak tie relationships. And that's, that's one of the things that you talk about. So here's the 0.1 that I'm going to ask you to connect? Is this idea when you mentioned that social media kind of allows all of us, I think maybe it was in the, in the context of your radio show, it allows all of us to kind of have our own radio show, right. Because, because you have to use to write people, even, even in blogging days, it was kind of like you had to put in some effort in order to get your opinion out there, there had to be some sort of production or someone had to come and read your stuff.
Speaker 0 00:26:54 But now to get our opinion out there, all we have to do is tweet, right? Like we tweet or we, or we have a conversation on Facebook or something, and it's just a simple hit send. And everyone, you know, thousands of people, if that's, if that's your crew knows what you're thinking at any given time, and that may not always be the best thing. Um, but then also this, uh, tell a great story in the book about, um, an inner and I'm laughing, not because it's funny, but your interaction as a freshman when you, um, won an argument with a girl. Um, but you know, I was thinking about that. That's the second point about this thing of, we used to, in order to calve kind of some of those heated discussions they knew they had to be in person where we're allowed to, to look one another in the eye. Right. And we have to think about what we want to say or, you know, things like that, but emotions run high and on social media, it, there's not those other, um, relational cues, right. That we, um, that we interact with. And so we just, I feel like sometimes we just kind of unload opinion, you know, opinions and opinions and opinions. And, and then we don't really have any consequence may not be the right word. Right. But there's not really any consequence for that. And then our strong tie relationships suffer.
Speaker 1 00:28:16 Yeah. Well, it's, um, I would use maybe a term like relational accountability. Um, one of the things is social media in general, you're just sending out things to people in general, you're giving general concepts that are not necessarily directed towards anyone, uh, which is almost like a form of advertising like advertising, uh, is, uh, where you just share something for the largest broadest audience. However, the general things that we communicate have specific relational consequences, but what happens is we, we, we tweet or post things that can be very inflammatory, uh, very general things. But then when someone challenges on them, we're like, well, this is, don't take it personal. I'm just telling my thoughts and my opinion. So then we don't take personal responsibility for the general things we've said with the specific, uh, consequences of that statement on individual now in person that's different, right?
Speaker 1 00:29:09 If you and I are talking right now, and if I say something directed towards you, if I say, you know, I think podcasting is a waste of time, and I'm saying this to you on your podcast, it is not a general implied thing. It's a direct attack on what you do. It's also attacking what I do, but, but in that sense that I would be careful, even if I had that opinion, I probably would share it differently, face to face than I would if it's general without, you know, so the strength of social media, I can tell people what I believe and, you know, no matter and just say, but the weakness of that is there's consequences to what we're saying. It ha it impacts people. And then we don't take the responsibility for that. And if my goal, my goal isn't just to be right.
Speaker 1 00:29:53 It's not just to share my opinions, but even if it's a strong opinion, my goal would be that if I have some light in me and someone's in darkness, that they'd be brought into the light, or if I have some truth and they believe a lie that I communicate truth in such a way that they want to abandon their life and come to the truth. And that doesn't seem to be the responsibility in how we're communicating online. It's more just, I'm telling you the truth. And this is what I believe. And I'm asking Christians, like, why are you telling the truth is the goal to reconcile, to, to love, to bring people into the light? Or is it just to be right? And those are different goals. And the relational side is huge in the book. I do tell the story of it as a freshmen, there's this, I'm having one of those discussions, you know, where I think I know everything because I took one class or something and we're arguing about some issue.
Speaker 1 00:30:42 I think it had something to do with evolution, but it doesn't matter the topics not important, but I'm arguing with this young woman and I'm winning the argument. I'm just doing such a great job. I'm glad there's no video because probably it was terrible. And it was a bunch of mansplaining and forgive me. But at the time I think I'm just winning and everything. She says, I have a counterpoint and I'm anticipating the wrong thing. She's going to say that I'm going to just crush with my great argument and I'm winning. And I'm a happy, like this is good. You know, this is what academia is about getting to the truth. And then I look at her and I see she's crying. And I suddenly realize I I'm an idiot. I don't know anything I'm losing the war. The goal is not to win an argument it's so that this woman in particular, I don't think she was a Christian or a D the goal would be that Christ would be attractive to her.
Speaker 1 00:31:30 That she'd know that she's loved and accepted. And there's grace. And even if I disagree, I value and respect her, but I am not thinking relational at all. I'm just thinking about truth outside of the context I'm in. And, you know, Jesus was like that Jesus could have come to every single person and just said, you know, repent, you wicked sinner every person. And he would have been right, but we don't see that depending upon the person and the relational context and what the Holy spirit says. Sometimes you just says incredibly irresponsible things to people who are doing wicked things. And he'd just like, you know, go and send no more, you know? And then other times he turns over tables and, you know, does things where, like, what happened to meek and mild Jesus? Well, we've got to be more intentional with our communication. I think what happens with social media, people are just like, this is just who I am. And I just say my truth, but we're missing the, the strength of human relationships is that we communicate based on the emotional needs, relational needs of the person we're communicating with.
Speaker 3 00:32:32 Yeah. Talk about, um, our witness in that context, because
Speaker 0 00:32:40 I wish I had written it down, but it was probably one of those that I penciled in as a note, just for me. But, um, talk about our, talk about our Christian witness online. I mean, we, Oh, Oh, I just found it. Can I read it
Speaker 1 00:32:53 Good because I don't remember what I've written. I read my book and I'm like, I wrote that that's pretty good. So yeah,
Speaker 0 00:32:57 Not a bracket and an underlined Doug's, I'm just, I'm just throwing it out there. Oh, it's on your, it was a chapter on trolling. Great. Um, but it was this, this, uh, bracket before the, before the semicolon, my witness becomes profoundly unhealthy when I feel as if someone is taking my life from me. So we're gonna jump context a little bit there, but this is this isn't in the context of trolling. So when I become bitter and upset by an individual's relentless trolling. So I think to connect that, you know, we, we say, this is, this is just who I am. I'm speak my truth. I throw something out there. And then whether it's a bot or whether it's someone who's actually trying to stir up controversy, or maybe it's just someone who isn't giving you a lot of context, but just pushing back a little bit and we can feel like they're stealing from us. Something's something's happening. What happens to our witness there?
Speaker 1 00:33:50 Well, you know, this is true in any context. And I think the principles in the book certainly could be in, in, in person communication. I'm just talking about how they're exaggerated online, but if you don't know your own, self-worth, um, it's, you can be very dangerous in any kind of fight or argument or even crusade. And if you haven't worked out those issues, and as I say, you, I mean me, if, if I haven't done that and, um, cause this is what I kind of think happens. I think someone, people be able to relate with this. If you're judging yourself about something, you already feel under judgment of it. Like you already feel like I'm not whatever the anxiety is. Like, like, I, I, you, you feel like you're not, you have a worth issue. Like, I don't think people respect me or I don't think my life is seen as good as other people's life.
Speaker 1 00:34:41 You're already accusing yourself. And so then when you go online, when someone brings something that seems like an accusation, it becomes like a second accusation against you. They're confirming what you already view about yourself. And this is how you can tell, like, if you immediately get really angry or upset or hurt and respond, that usually they're touching on something that there's already a brokenness in you, and it becomes a confirmation. So then you can unload. And we've all seen this, like in marriage or relationships with a person, like what in the world was that about? Like, I, you know, I just said, I didn't like my salad. And you suddenly started talking about all these things about support and care and value and like, what, what are you talking about? Well, someone's already living under an accusation and all it takes is one person to come in to confirm that accusation or to appear like that.
Speaker 1 00:35:31 And now what are we doing? We're trying to defend our worth. And when you try to defend your words, what are ways people defend their worth? Well, it's less about the other person. Like, I don't care about you. I just have to defend my worth. And what is another way we defend our worth by tearing other people down. You think you're better than me? Well, you're not. Let me show you how you're worse than I am. And so whenever we get into the context of trying to defend our contend for our worth, the way we talk and argue, usually becomes pretty unhealthy. Now, if I'm at peace with who I am, and you don't have to agree with me for me to feel okay, that you can even not like me for me to be okay, then it's probably okay that I can get into these difficult conversations.
Speaker 1 00:36:12 It's like Jesus, when Jesus started his ministry, he was baptized by John, right? And he comes out of the water. And what does the father do? The father says, this is my son and him I'm well-pleased. And then also the spirit descends upon him and will, well, what Jesus receives this gift from the father before he's really done anything before he's done any miracles or healings before people begin to praise him or not praise him and the father at the beginning of Jesus's ministry just wants everyone to know. I love my son. So what does that tell us? We're supposed to minister out of the favor of God. God's favor. God's goodness. God's love. And then what through the leading of the Holy spirit, social media is the same way. If I'm going online to gain worth and value from other people, I'm a danger to others.
Speaker 1 00:36:59 And they're a danger to me. If I have it settled in my heart, that the favor of God rests upon me, that I minister not to gain God's favor, but as an expression of his favor in my life, then I can interact with people and have these arguments and disagreements. The reality is even if you feel that way, there's some times where you're weak emotionally, you're weak, psychologically, and you have to put certain boundaries. Like, I think I can do it, but I can't. And in my mind, I know what's true, but in my emotional core, this interaction is tearing me apart. So in those contexts, you know, it is pull back. It is sometimes mute people and not give your energy towards them. But again, that's a relational discovery based on the relationship with the person and our relationship with God,
Speaker 0 00:37:41 You know, reminded me. This is something I don't, I don't think you talk about in the book, but I noticed one of the things, because I was off, you know, social media for so long. And then when I got back on it was, um, I felt like I could, you know, kind of handle it. I got it, worked on me through some of the issues that I'd mentioned before, but I noticed that one of the things I was paying, starting to pay attention to is that social media was allowing me to see things, um, just, you know, everyday things that, you know, which is a good thing. Like you're not there. So you could see your friend's baby or, you know, something like that, which is, which is totally cool. But then there were some things that were, I wasn't expecting to like prick me emotionally, right.
Speaker 0 00:38:21 Because I'm like, and then it was like social media was what allowed me to, to see something right. This, this thing happened, but I wasn't there. And so I actually wouldn't have been privy to it, had it not been for social media. And that was one of the things I felt like, um, the easier thing to do on social media is to, is to instantly respond. Um, when we have, you know, some weird and we're kind of living inside of that emotion, whatever it is. And, um, so one of the things I've tried to do, uh, to help like, um, where there's a spiritual formation happening there and not just a social media formation, right. Is I actually started like, um, with the first time I noticed it happened to me and I actually recognized it. I actually journaled about it. Right. And so I was asking the Lord, I'm having a feeling and I don't know what it is.
Speaker 0 00:39:16 Can you help me understand what, you know, what I'm feeling and, and why, you know, I'm having that feeling. And then I could make the decision, you know, later, um, do I respond how I respond? You know, how do I respond? You know, some of those things. But, um, but this, I think it takes extra. It takes extra work on all of our parts to, uh, respond in that way. Because especially because if you say something to me right now, like you think podcasting is a waste of time, then I could just respond to you and say, Oh really? How come can we talk about that? You know, but there's not like, well, I mean, I'm just saying, you know, theoretically, you know,
Speaker 1 00:39:59 You said there, and I, I wish, you know, what's the strength of online communication, instantly being able to communicate and it's tremendously powerful. And a lot of ways you can express joy. And, but you're exactly right. The contemplation part is, is huge. And particularly immuno in person, if you're getting in a fight with someone and your emotions are rise rising up, usually you have to find a way to deal with that emotion. Before you say anything else, right. There has to be some pausing. Everybody knows that in close relationships, you know, you're, you're upset with the kids and you're lecturing them. And then the Lord just like, Hey, you just need to stop. You need to go in another room, you take a walk, listen to me. And then you can re-engage and what do you do when you reengage? Hey, I'm sorry. You know, I'm out of control.
Speaker 1 00:40:46 I I'm, you know, I shouldn't have raised my voice at you like that. Here's my concern. And you could still address the concern, but you're addressing it relationally. So we have the two sides. One. Why do I, why am I careful with my communication with my kids and my wife and my friends? Well, because they matter, these are relationships that I don't like take it or leave it kind of thing. So one, we should have that and how we deal with anyone that this relationship matters. And this is going to be my only interaction with this person on the face of the earth. Uh, let it be an interaction that's reconciling where if I meet him in heaven, it won't be like, Ooh, sorry about that. You know, it'll be like genuinely, we had a positive interaction, but, uh, you know, if you, you, you gave at the other side of the pausing at Jesus gives us an example.
Speaker 1 00:41:27 I still want to make Jesus, son of God, perfect. Still goes away to be with father. And that just hits me. Um, and the beginning of ministry, like when he's in Capernaum, Capernum is near the sea of Galilee ministry is happening, right? People are coming Revival's happening. He goes to boa with the father and so much so that the disciples are like, where is he? He should be down here with where the action is. And so they go find them. And basically say that, where have you been? We've been looking for you all over Capernum is where it's at. This is revival. This is what this is all about. And Jesus says, you know, one, basically what I've been with my father I'm praying. And then the other, we're not supposed to stay in Copernum we're supposed to go to other places, which is just such a radical thing.
Speaker 1 00:42:10 Because as a pastor, you know where I'm staying, I'm staying in Capernaum. This is revival. I'm building the world outreach ministry center. You know, this is God's sign that we're supposed to be in good Burnham. So this isn't even about negative stuff. We're supposed to pause. Even if we think it's all good, because God might want us to give energy to something else. So this isn't just about fighting online, you know, certainly pause, Lord, what do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? Is this the right attitude? But it's also about pausing. Like you might just use social media. I just, with my friends and we joke and hang out and have fun. And it's a fun experience. And the Lord might tell us to pause. And when we pause, he says, I want you to look at that injustice over there.
Speaker 1 00:42:49 I want you to look at that poor person. I want you to look at the racial injustices in this world. And I'm tired of you being silent. You have something to say to that issue. There's an injustice on how women are treated in the church and you don't have to deal with that injustice because you can just hang out with people who agree with your theology. But I don't want you just to stay in Copernum. I want you to visit the rest of the sea of Galilee and to go wherever my spirit leads you. That's another reason we can't just do what is instantaneous, because what is instantaneous is often what is before us, but there's an aspect where we have to consider a future where God is leading us a bigger picture. And if we don't, we just stay where we're at. And you know, that could be in a different state or it could be a hostile state. That's hard for me. It's hard for me to pause. I want everything done. I want to fix it in the moment as a pastor. I don't like conflict to simmer, but in simmering, I'm allowing one, the other person to kind of find out what God is saying. I'm allowing myself and then I'm making sure when I speak, I'm doing it with intentionality. And not just because it's an emotional, visceral response to, um, you know, something that's going on around me.
Speaker 0 00:44:00 So as we kind of start to wind down, I usually ask guests, or I try to, what's like the one thing you wish I would have brought up, right? Like, what's the one question that you wish I would've asked. And so I'm gonna leave that hanging over you. And then selfishly, because you're a pastor I'm going to say, or if you would like to work this in, can you pastor us for a minute? Can you, can you talk to about this? Um, because, because that was one of the draws for me, when I, when I started engaging with your words in the book was I didn't, I didn't feel judged. I don't feel any, any angry tweets, like rising up in me. I really did feel pastored. I felt like someone who was, it was giving me opportunity, um, to look at myself and to look to the Lord for what I could do. Um, not just what I could do better, but like you're saying to recognize the ways I was being formed. Um, and, and to notice them and, um, and inter intervene and interject when that was necessary. So, you know, what's, what's the thing that you wish we could have talked about and then sub tweet, can you pass dress?
Speaker 1 00:45:10 Um, by the way, as a pastor, you never say I'm about to finish. I'm winding down. So I know, uh, as you're interested in that field as well, uh, whenever a pastor says, that means another 40 minutes is still coming. So, uh, you know,
Speaker 0 00:45:27 Interrupt you there because yes, you're right. When the pastor of my church growing up would always make the joke. I think this is in the book. I feel like they give you a book when you get ordained and it's like the pastor jokes. And, and he would say, um, you know what it means he would take off his watch and set it on the pulpit. He would say, you know where I'm going to this. You've probably used it, but, but, um, but he would say, you know what it means when a pastor takes off his watch and sets it on the pulpit? Absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1 00:45:53 One of the worst, I was guest speaking at a church and they told me, you know, the service ends like at 1130 or something. Uh, and so once worship's done, uh, you can preach, well now I didn't even think, you know, I might preach 30 to 40 minutes, but I guess the worship team was really short and they gave me, and they sent me the, you know, the tape or whatever of the service. And I had preached an hour and 10 minutes. And I realized why everyone was just glazed over staring at me. And I, I wrote back to the passenger, like I am so sorry. I just looked at 1130 and I was like, I'm going to preach to 1130. And it was just a nightmare, but okay. I want to go to the pastor side. I, I, you know, as far as what you could have asked me or would, I just want you to ask whatever's of interest and I'm so honored that you'd read the book and you are a great interviewer.
Speaker 1 00:46:42 Uh, I like the depth that you bring things to. So I I've appreciated this greatly, uh, to pastor people, um, you know, we are made in the image of God and we are dearly loved by God. And the first thing the Bible says is that let us make man in our image. Um, uh, and then God has a high view of humans. And then he blessed us with tremendous capacity to be fruitful, to multiply, to have dominion. He gave us all these tremendous gifts, and then he gave us volition to be able to love him back and return to say, I'm going to give you all these giftings, all this powerful ability, and then you can use it to serve yourself, or you can use it to serve God. And that's any technologies like that. We can use it for ourselves or for God. That's what Paul says in Romans that the sin of humanity is we serve the created instead of the creator.
Speaker 1 00:47:28 He, that, you know, it's evident creation is evident and the things that are created, and sometimes people are a creator is evident and the things that are created. And sometimes we think, well, that's because the mountain show God. But what Paul is saying, he's saying, you know, that you are created, you know, that you are wonderfully made, you know, that you have been made at some level in the image of God. And you can either suppress that knowledge and worship yourself, or you can just embrace it and worship the one who created you. So, you know, with social media, this, isn't another thing you're doing wrong that you need to do better. You know, this is not another thing to shame you or to condemn you. It's, you've been wonderfully made. You have giftings and strengths and all kinds of ways where you can image Christ on earth.
Speaker 1 00:48:14 And now you have this wonderful opportunity through social media, to image Christ and that's, to me what it means to image God that people would say, you know what love is like, love is like how Doug dealt with that person who was upset at them on Twitter. And then they say, what is God like? Well, God's love is a lot like Doug's love in that instance are our Adam's love or Eve's love that they were supposed to image and reflect. There is supposed to tend the garden in a way where people would say, what's the motivation of this garden. It's God's motivation. We have this tremendous technology. And now we have an opportunity to image God on this technology, where people can find the image of God through all kinds of tweets and posts and instances and all we can, we can image God in such a way that there could be revival in people's awareness of that.
Speaker 1 00:49:02 God is with us and for us, and that we've not been left and abandoned and we don't have to be afraid. So that's what I want to encourage people to have a higher view of their impact in the world, to not just be willing to know God's going to take care of it. Now, the Bible says, no, I've created you to be my hands, to be my feet, to be my body. And the body of Christ must be revealed online. And then also in that for people who have been beat up online, I care about you too. I talk about those issues of it's okay to, to contend for your mental health. Some people can't be online much and it's okay. Some people, it hurts them too much. And just to me, you have to pray and ask the Lord, you know, what do I do?
Speaker 1 00:49:48 And the motivations behind it, others, you know, you have to stop isolating. You're isolating in your little ideological, safe havens. And God's like, I didn't give you these giftings so that you could waste it on yourself. There are people hungry, there's lost sheep. And we got to find those lost sheep. They want to hear your message. They're desperate for it. And you might have to weed through a lot of people who aren't desperate for the message you want to fight you at every point, but those lost sheep are worth finding and they're worth finding in person and they're worth finding online. So, uh, I'll pass the offering plate now and, uh, come up to the altar and we should be fine. So that would be the pastoral side of me, I guess. No, that sounds, thank
Speaker 0 00:50:28 You so much, Doug. I really, um, I appreciate that word. It's timely. Um, the book again is posting piece. It comes out, we're going to say tomorrow, right? Comes up April point again. Why social media divides us and what we can do about it. It's by IVP and it's got great emojis on it.
Speaker 1 00:50:48 Yeah, it does. And I wanted, here's the cell salesman part. Uh, don't worry. I'm not going to make a lot of money, no matter how many books you don't make any money writing books, but at the end of every chapter, there's questions that you can process. And I also gave these posting piece challenges where you can actually, through your social media, find ways to integrate what you're learning. And, and I know for some people that might feel like a risk, but there's also resources that Ivy press, where you could run a small group through it. You can even preach a series through it. I want it to facilitate discussion and facilitate new behaviors. That's more important than even if people agree with all the, my assumptions are our statements. So it's a great small group, a resource, and yes, it is called posting piece. Why social media divides us and what we can do about it. Cause my radio background is you got to say something three times for people.
Speaker 0 00:51:37 Well then we'll say it again before we get off. But, uh, but you know, at the end of every chapter, you're right. There's there's discussion questions too. Right. And then I was actually really tempted, but I was like, I don't know. I don't know the rules on this is that like too early to start posting challenges. So they didn't feel like homework was partially my point. Like I was like, Oh, I would love to do that. And then I was like, Ooh, I don't know how many, you know, like, can we start posting challenges like before
Speaker 1 00:52:01 You can, you can do whatever. I don't think there's any publishing. Police are going to get you. I want people talking about it. And uh, and then I just need people who will, who will send me nice supportive things when I get the angry tweets, uh, because there's a part of me, like, what did you do, Doug? Why, why would you put yourself in a situation? But no, yeah, you, I w I want people, cause I'll be looking at it, the hashtag posting piece, then I can look at all over the world. Anyone who's gone through the book and they're doing some of these challenges and I can look at it and support each other. So I think that's kind of a cool function of it as well.
Speaker 0 00:52:34 Well, sign me up. I'll, I'll, I'll send you the messages when other people are not trolling. We're not going to call them trolls. Right. When other people are trying to tempt us into, you know, into getting engaging in ways that aren't healthy. But you know, my husband, uh, was checking in kind of mid morning and uh, I generally kind of tell him, you know, what I have on my calendar and stuff throughout the day, we try to do that. And, and he says, do you talk to Doug today at 10? And I said, I said, no, it's noon. And this was his text response to me. He seems like a really nice guy on social. Good. Right. So this is like goals, right?
Speaker 1 00:53:07 Okay. I'm going to be very, uh, blunt here. Uh, I haven't pronounced your name yet. Alexis. Got it. Okay. Um, one of the things that I just would like to say to you and to others in the pastoral side is I was in seminary and I was once asking a professor like, how do you know God's voice? And he said, well, if you're close to the Lord, like if you're in the word and then Christian community, it's often the first thing that comes to your mind. And I begin to cry in that classroom because I realized that God had been calling me into ministry and to pastoring into doing some things. And I was trying to talk myself out of it. Cause I, it was just clear. It would. And then I try to justify it to other people. And for you, Alexa, in the context of like what you're doing here, this has tremendous value, but I would just encourage you, like God's close to you.
Speaker 1 00:53:58 So those inclinations, uh, just pursue them, what God has placed on your heart. And I think that works for anyone who's listening. It's it's, if we make room for the Lord, I in, most of my messages will make room for the Lord. His God is present and God will reveal to you to take these steps. What we're often doing is trying to suppress that knowledge or avoid it, or to justify it to others. And we don't have to defend it. I don't know if I'm going to be successful as an author. That doesn't matter. I'm just supposed to be obedient and obedience is success. And so that's the freedom. If people want to, I'm going to do this on social media, whether people accept it or reject it, I can stand before the Lord and say, I did what I felt you called me to do.
Speaker 1 00:54:36 And I think that's worthy. You'll grow in the character of Christ and the rest won't matter. So for you personally, what you're doing has tremendous value to, I would, I would think more about that. You do know the leading of God and less about trying to justify that are defended to other people, uh, because you're certainly open for correction from, so if you're way off, people will come in and they'll tell you, but I've found for most of us, we're afraid to take those spirit led steps because they contrast a world that we're living in that is not following the voice of God.
Speaker 0 00:55:06 Yeah. That's a good word. That's a good word. Um, can you give us the benediction that you often give?
Speaker 1 00:55:13 Hmm. Uh, well, I would say this make room for the Lord. He knows you by name. Uh, and I would encourage you. If you make room for him, he's going to speak to you. So every person listening, you're not alone. God is close. He's with you. He's near you make room for the Lord. He knows you by name. He's not calling you to laws and legalism. He's calling you to relationship and you will grow in his character.
Speaker 0 00:55:37 Thanks, Doug. Thank you. The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
