[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, Tiffany, I feel like we just chatted in some ways because we talked about your Bible study that you had come out semi recently and now we're back again.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Here we are. Wild.
So glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: It's so. It's really so fun.
I love. Anyway, I love our chats. I love our conversations. And this is something that I'm like, anyway, thinking back to the process that kind of led us to this conversation that we're about to have, I'm just like, so many things have happened. So we're in 2025. We have the political climate that is 2025 in the US right now, and.
And we're all just trying to navigate it.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
It's a wild time to be alive. And I think I'm reminded more than ever the good work that can reach the most amount of people with a fresh vision of what could be is so necessary in this cultural moment. Yeah.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm so excited. I can't wait to just let you take the mic, but I'll give us a little introduction first so everyone else can get caught up and they know what we're talking about. So I'm here with Tiffany Bloom.
She is executive director of an organization called made for PACs that I was fortunate enough to do a little bit of work with. And we're going to talk about some of that today. So made for PACs has, I don't even know how we say this, partnered with InterVarsity Press and University Press is releasing four Bible studies.
Two of them will have released by the time this airs. Two of them will be forthcoming. And I'm really excited about all of them. I'm excited about same topics. I'm excited about the partnerships, and I'm really, really.
I don't know. I'm. The anticipation has me. It's what you just said, like, thinking about what the potential, like what will happen when folks start really diving into some of these conversations.
So as executive director for made for PACs, we're going to talk about kind of the umbrella, like what these Four studies mean what they're bringing. And I'd love to hear, like, some of your hopes, because the authors of these studies are tackling some really weighty topics.
But I love the way in which Made for pacs has determined to tackle those kinds of things. And I would say it's very different than kind of the normal, like, social media binary kind of ways that, you know, polarize people.
And Made for pacs comes in as really asking people to consider thinking and conversing and acting on these topics in different ways.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that there are some taboo topics in the Christian space.
Mental health, migration, peace and liberation. And I think in our effort to be diplomatic, we forego a nuanced approach to issues that matter in the here and now, because we know that we are not pursuing our faith just for personal salvation. It's for communal renewal and flourishing. It is a both. And. And so we wanted to put these studies out that have been created by outrageously formidable, gifted voices, activists and theologians of color in a time and place in history where they're needed. And the goal is not to polarize. The goal is not to feel leftist or rightist or centrist. The goal is to have an honest conversation and fresh eyes for issues that have been going on since the beginning of time. Beginning of time. And that's what actually, if I'm being honest, Lexis really drew me to pack is. It wasn't these emotionally charged clickbait issues that they tackled. It was a really, really kind, centered approach on how we can walk out our faith in ways that we understand affect people.
We understand affect people. As much as we'd want to just sit with our cup of coffee and just have a minute to ourselves and act like that is the extent of our Christian life. That is not. That's not it. We live in this wild world, especially in the year 2025, and we need insight, scriptural insight that isn't from dominant culture or white evangelicalism as a whole to be able to navigate the here and now.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So some of these topics, I just want to say the titles of the studies that are coming out and then maybe ask you to talk about some of the topics specifically. But also, you know, who is kind of not necessarily just who is the audience for pacs, but you mentioned it, like, who are the people who are contributing to, you know, the work that PACS is. Is trying to do specifically. So.
So we've got a study.
Oh, my goodness. By Drew Jackson. I just love talking.
I love. I love talking to Drew I love hearing. I love hearing him speak. I love seeing his poetry on Instagram. All this just so incredibly thoughtful. He has a study coming out through this series called Let Peace Reign, Love, justice, and Dignity in God's Kingdom, which I am so excited about.
And then we have Christelle Acevedo, and she has one called Liberated by the Cross, Peace and Reconciliation in God's Kingdom. And if I'm not mistaken, that one's going to be in English and in Spanish, which is. Is so fabulous. I can't wait for that. All of these are, like multimedia and that kind of thing which we'll get into because I'm going to talk with each author. So that's. This is the beginning of a series where I'm talking to each other.
Then we have one by Dorcas Chang Tosin, who. Who I have worked with. She's been on the podcast before. She is also a sensitive soul, which I. Which I. I love.
She wrote one called Mental Health Experiencing God's Care for Our Mind, Body, and Spirit, which, I mean, I feel like I was gonna say that could be a whole episode in itself. And it will with Dorcas. And then lastly, Dorcas and I co authored one called Migration Experiencing God's Care for Immigrants and Where We Sit, as we're recording in 2025.
You know, I feel like the first two definitely are big picture and, like, how can we change maybe the paradigm with which we're looking at these kinds of things? But then this Mental Health and Migration, like those have been just reoccurring in the news, in our culture, in our churches. I mean, everywhere we look right now, there's something happening with those topics. And, like, how do we. How do we navigate that faithfully as Christians? You know, those are. Those are tough.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Those are tough. Absolutely.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So maybe first, can you tell us a little bit more about who PACS is? I know that there's been a little bit of evolution kind of since the organization was started, but I feel like there's definitely those. Those core values, those threads that have stayed throughout, you know, the different offerings that the organization has given. There's still just been this. This thr of who's involved, who you really want to serve, and the values that are behind that. So give us just a little bit of who is. Who is pacs and what are you guys doing right now?
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So PACS exists to empower Christians of color. That's our primary audience, and secondary audience is allies. And those who want to learn, lean in and listen for the first five years of pax's existence, it was providing free resources by authors of color, activists of color, scholars of color, academics of color. And so there was just this robust library of essays, poems, videos, podcasts, virtual events. It was just an absolute incredible offering across the board for people who wanted to find themselves in the story of God that had been left out. So that was really the through line. And we're still doing that to this day. Where we were creating resources, we've gone a little deeper and done a bit more of a discipleship model. And now we provide cohorts again with the same values of peace, justice and contemplation. And in these cohorts, they really serve four audiences. Church leaders, community builders, contemplatives and creatives. We, we believe that the church is a multicultural one, and by 2045 it's going to be so on paper. So we need to equip and empower and come alongside those folks now so they can have the resources they deserve, the mentorship they deserve, the instruction they deserve so they can thr at the intersection of their craft and call.
So that's kind of the bulk of what we do now while we continue to distribute those resources. So a lot of the resources that were created in the early years have now been transformed into a workbook that every fellow in our fellowship processes through during the nine month fellowship. Additionally, as you know, we've partnered with ivp, we've partnered with Pacific School of Religion to release a lot of this other created content into the highways and byways so they can reach more people. Because, as you know, Alexis, you were part of the contributing team. They are outrageously good.
There's nothing like them out there. And they're in such a deep collection.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: They're amazing.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Such a deep collection of work. So we're really excited.
We are just about to head into our fall fellowship.
We've got everything from a songwriting cohort co partnered with Common Hymnal for praise and protest songwriting. We have writing cohorts, we have poetry cohorts, we have contemplative activism cohorts, we have women in leadership, coerc youth leadership cohorts. We want to equip and empower as many Christians of color that we can, can, and I would say the through line of, of also of what we have found of those who we serve is the majority of our folks work in predominantly white institutions and they are in helping professions or serving for the common good in some way, shape or form. They're educators, social workers, therapists, legal aides, work in international development.
Literally 97% of our folks are serving to make the world a better place. And they're, they're not maybe quite burnt out, but they'd be getting crispy and they, they're lonely. And we are, we are really committed to providing community where there hasn't been before, where they do not need to assimilate, they can merely integrate.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Ah, that just, I mean, I just feel like. I just want to say a big, hearty amen to that. I mean, I, I would say beautiful. It's beautiful, but it's, it's. It's beautiful.
It's beautiful. When I think about the cohort experience, like how just a cohort can draw things out of members of the cohort that have been maybe dormant, or you're like, I don't really know what to do with this thing, or this has been on my mind and someone else might say or do something. I mean, there's just so much magic that can happen in a cohorted experience. But the support that people feel inside of something like that is wonderful.
And then when I think about the contributors, like the, the first part that you mentioned, I remember when I first was introduced to some of those resources at, on the PACS website, just, you know, without anybody in person, just kind of like flipping through some of these things by myself, clicking, you know, listening to, you know, spoken word pieces, looking at, like, Vizio Divinas. I mean, just artwork, reading essays by folks who looked like me or my neighbor.
I was in seminary having a really great experience, reading a lot of authors of color. And this was different.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Wow.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: This was different. I think it was different in part because it was younger folks, you know, that was part of it, what I was reading. But also folks who were free, even if they. Because many of them were like actual theologians or Bible scholars, you know, but people who were free in that context of the PACS resources, to write from their own experience or to write in an informal way, they didn't have to write for the Academy.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: There we go.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Right?
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Yep, there it is.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Or, yeah, their friend, you know, they could write for their cousin. They could write for themselves, for the common man. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Because we're not all theologians and Bible scholars and all that kind of stuff. And the academy is great and in what it does, but like, in my everyday life, it feels really great to know that there's someone, someone else who is experiencing something similar.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
And even those complex concepts that the Academy offers us, that we need, we need to expand our understanding of a Christian worldview, but provided in a context and way and experience that is unlike what we would normally receive from the academy.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, so that's fantastic. So I'm super grateful for, for the work of PAX and what you guys have been doing.
Now let's start on a couple of these topics. I mean, I think we're, they're meaty, but we're not afraid to chat about them. And I'm really curious to hear, since you've been working with people who have been, who have been working on these kinds of topics for a while, what do you see as, as the need to have the church communities in the church discussing these kinds of things right now again? So, reminder, we're talking about love, justice, dignity, we're talking about peace, we're talking about liberation, we're talking about reconciliation, we're talking about mental health, we're talking about migration.
What do, what do you see as the need and the timing even for those things to come out right now?
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Well, first I have to say, Alexis, I know are around the same age. This would have changed our lives if we would have had this in our, in our late teens, twenties, in our adolescence. This would have absolutely radically altered our understanding of the divine and given just a beautiful tapestry of how the world works and our role in it. It would have provided such connection points for how we can live out faith and service in a way that's missing. And I think in this era of outrage and propaganda and extremism, it is critical more than ever to approach these issues with what you'll notice, as we've already kind of covered, a very peaceful tone and a very calm demeanor to be able to handle complex issues, not painting anyone as wrong or right, but humanizing everyone in the process. And that's what I love about packs. It's outrageously humanizing and kind, kind of going back to what we just talked about. I think what the academy lacks, and this is, this is a well known thing and they would. This is self described on their end too, is it lacks on ramps for the common man to be able to understand these more complex concepts. And so finding ways to have what I like to consider on ramps for folks to engage in these issues that feel cerebral, that feel abstract, but that actually have a very real impact in their lives and in their neighborhood and society at large.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the way, I like the way that you put that. I also just want to highlight what you said about the tone because I. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking about social media posts that I've seen in the last month or so.
Like, something can be said and the words are the same with a different tone, and the meaning is entirely different.
And so I even think about, you know, even just some of the things that we've just tossed around in this. I'm like, there's. There's like, similar language coming from, you know, some of these places that are propagating this polarization, that are propagating things that diminish dignity in people that do dehumanize doing it in the name of maybe, quote, love or truth or peace or, you know, things like that. But we can tell by the tone that that's.
They're achieving something different.
Yeah. So I think even highlighting the tone for me feels really important because I think one of the things that I get from Tax is kind of like, whoa, whoa, just slow down a second.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Like, let's just. Let's just maybe like, talk this through for a second, you know, like. And I also think one of the things that I get and. And maybe. Maybe you could speak to this a little is when I.
When I have interacted with resources or folks who are involved in PACs, and when I'm, you know, looking through these. These studies that are here, there is.
I don't know, I feel like there is an honest curiosity.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: You know, like, even a lot of the, you know, I read, of course I worked on the. The migration study. And so I'm reading a lot of people's, you know, essays, their personal stories, things like this, and it feels like them answering a question, you know, like, if I were to say, tell me, you know, tell me about your experience as a, you know, as a child of an immigrant, you know, and then here's this beautiful essay that just kind of answers that question in a really honest and sincere way that isn't trying to, like, prove anything to anybody. It's just like, let me just help you with that curiosity, you know, that you have. And I think that's something that I have tried to have more of. Even when there are places where I, like, really disagree with what's being said is like, help me understand, like, say more, you know, like, why. You know, help. Help me understand why you feel this way or, like, where this coming from or what are your experiences in this. And.
But that, like, the tone of curiosity rather than, like, prove to me for. As an example.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: Makes a big difference.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: I.
You just nailed it.
Curiosity versus trying to prove something.
It's the posture, isn't it? It's a teachability and an openness to learn.
Because as much as we would love to say proximity is what we need, or facts, you know, people love to be like, oh, we just need facts. Actually, curiosity is a great place to start in our learning journey. Curiosity and humility combined. Oof.
That is going to get you so far in life.
It's going to get us so far in life of how we learn and how we approach the world and how we approach others.
And I think.
I mean, I'm going to go there, and I hope this is okay, but I. I recently read about a pastor on his podcast talking about weaponized empathy.
And when I think about our four studies coming out, Liberated by the Cross, Let Peace Reign, Mental Health, migration, all of those require such empathy, and they require empathy for the self, and they require empathy for the other, empathy for the self, and empathy for the other. So if we're defining empathy as being able to hold and lean into the feelings and experiences of others or ourselves, that is a great place to start. And it goes back to what you said of curiosity. And when we partner that with humility, you're going to leave space for empathy. And this. This pastor went on to say we should remove it from our vocabulary and. And take it out of the Christian context. And he went on to say it aligns us with hell.
And so as I think about our conversation right now, and I've been mulling on this over the weekend, and it was featured, NPR did a feature on it because it was just, wow, this is. This is wild that a pastor was saying this, because the first way to. To throw the baby out with the bath water is to refuse to humanize people, whether it's ourselves or others.
How do we lean into destruction?
We remove any sense of dignity or humanity. We refuse to humanize the other. And empathy is the antidote for that. And so when you think about these studies, it is an invitation toward empathy. It is an invitation toward curiosity and humility by people who've walked the walk, by people who have done their homework, by people who have studied for this, who've trained for this, and they are providing this minority lens that is so needed in the Christian landscape right now. You and I have been around Christian publishing. It is very white, painfully so. If I say that, and I love my publisher dearly, but it is. It is. It is a. It is. It is not a multicultural or multiethnic experience.
And so when we are able to uplift These why sages of our time and say, come, learn, feast, dine, ask questions. This is our moment. As a man thinketh, so he is. Let's begin to think differently so we can build the world that everyone deserves to inhabit, not just some.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: I'm glad you went there.
Sorry.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: I was like, I'm gonna do it. And she.
[00:23:34] Speaker A: I'm not sorry. I'm super. I'm super glad that you went there. I mean, I think I. I was actually shocked. And it still kind of blows my mind. This may be another conversation for another day, but I'm just. It still blows my mind that empathy has become this, like, naughty word, this, like, profane thing. I'm like, I don't.
I don't know that I'm. Again, I just said I want to have a posture of curiosity. Right. But I'm like. At first glance, I'm like, I don't know if I'm capable of understanding why that's a bad thing. You know, like, empathy just feels like, to me, it just seems like such a needed ingredient for, you know. Yeah.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: For.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: For understanding. So I'm. Anyway, I'm really glad that you and.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Basic human decency and basic skills, maturity.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: I mean, but when you talk about basic human decency maturity, who needs those things? I mean, that's. That's kind of bogus.
But no, I. I love it. And.
And. And hearing from minority folks who have lived it and actually.
Actually specifically saying, I want to hear what you have to say. That made me think of.
We won't dive into all of the studies, like, really specifically. But that did. We'll. We'll save that for the other. The other episodes in the series. But it did make me think, for example, of the. Of the two studies that are a little bit more specific topically of mental health and migration. But I was thinking of mental health and just, like, how the publishing world is so white. Well, so is the mental health world.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: I mean, there are like.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: I mean, I had a black male therapist on the podcast years ago. I mean, this was like, 2020, probably.
Yeah. But it was like, he was like, there's. There's almost no one who looks like him in the mental health world. And then it's like, but then how do you serve, you know, people who. You. You look and you're like, there's no one there who looks like me. You know, how can I. And then, you know, and then there's all sorts of other stuff of like. And, you know, when my culture, like, we don't do that, you know, like, we're not, like, we don't just say, I'm going to see my therapist. Like, what? I'm sorry, you know, like, but there's all sorts of these things. But if the, if the world kind of like the publishing world is white, these are the voices that we're hearing. Mental health world is white. And these are the voices that we're hearing.
What is it? What does it take? You know?
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Yeah, let's pause there. I, I really love that you pointed out more anecdotally, but collectivist cultures don't subscribe to mental health struggles or illness in the way that our white counterparts have. And we have a lot to learn there. I was re. I'm, I'm finishing up Tastes Like War for API Month. And if you haven't read it, Grace Cho, Tastes Like War. It was a, it was an award winning book by, in Book of the Year by NPR and Vanity Fair. And she talks about realizing her mother has schizophrenia and she actually grew up in the same hometown as I did about 10 years earlier than I did very small, tiny, tiny town in rural Washington state.
And so it's a little, it's a little eerie for me personally, because she refers to very specific places. And I know exactly. I've been there and I've. And I also grew up really isolated as a woman of color in a very rural white community.
But she talks about trying to explain her mother's mental health struggles to her extended family. And she said because there's no concept for mental health struggles in Korea at the time, this is in the 80s. She just. The only thing that they would refer is her spirit is unwell. Her spirit is unwell. That's the only way to give credence to maybe any sort of internal struggle. And I thought to myself, when I think of so many of the collectivist cultures that we have so much to learn from and are so beautiful in brown and black communities, we miss out on a greater understanding of how the brain works and how suffering works and how we grieve and how we process and how we can identify with Christ in our grief, in our struggle, but also in our healing. And so I am excited that, just like you said, because it is a pretty white world, that we can provide a minority point of view as we approach these really, really delicate matters.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: I'm so glad that you brought that up. And those are things that will, that will cover more for sure, whenever I talk to Dorcas, or at least I think. But I'm super glad that you brought that up about those collectivist cultures.
The other one that I wanted to just hit on is who. And we could say like a whole lot of things you named. One is like in 2045, the church will be multiethnic on paper. In 2045, the US will be multi ethnic on paper as well.
And I got this email this morning and it was advertising a conference. So I clicked on the link and then it had these statistics about Houston specifically that I just wanted.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Houston is wildly.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Houston's crazy diverse. Yeah, I just wanted to throw it out because I'm like, if we're going to talk about migration and what kind of topic it is right now, I mean, we can definitely go there with some of what we're seeing since January. But then.
So this is Houston, which, which is its own little place.
But it's. I'm like, it's also in Texas. Right. So I mean, I'm like, let's look at kind of the bigger picture. It's all, it's indicative in some ways. So obviously Houston. Well, maybe not obviously. I know this because I've been here for 15 years. It's the most international and diverse city in the country.
So that's one thing. We also usually come in fourth on the largest cities in the, in the nation.
So this says almost one in four Houstonians are foreign born. Which feels huge to me. Right. I mean, no one can.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Not just it's like person of color, but foreign.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Foreign born.
A little less than 50% of children. This is how it puts it, are diaspora. Next generation having at least one immigrant parent.
So almost half of Houston children have at least one immigrant parent. Not grandparent or.
I'm serious.
This says 38% of the residents are Hispanic, Latino. And this is talking about the bigger Houston. So like it says, you know, 7.5 million. So this isn't just Houston proper. This is like larger, Greater Houston, which is larger than the white residential population, which is only at about 25ish percent.
And then it also talks about the church makeup.
20 Nigerian churches, 40 South Asian churches, you know, like all, all of this.
But I'm like, we have this in, you know, a decent sized city in Texas because this is real life in the U.S. come on.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: Like this is real life in the U.S. i mean, and we're talking about nearly. Almost one in four Houstonians are foreign born.
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: 50% of children have one immigrant parent. But we're talking and you know, most international and diversity in the country.
This is from all over the world.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: This isn't one region, one country, one or two little places. This is from all over the world.
And this.
I mean, it is unique in some ways, but I'm like, it is also indicative of where the US Is as a nation.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: This is what we. This is what we look like. Yeah, we look like. Look like a nation of. Of migrants, of people of color, of, you know, so anyway, thinking about that and then also thinking about what has become.
Let's talk about empathy becoming a naughty word in some communities, some church communities, but then migrant immigration, that has become a very.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Oh, glory. Yeah.
[00:32:13] Speaker A: I mean.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: And you know, what's wild.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: Go on. No, I was. Well, I was gonna say one more thing, and I really want to let you have it, but. Because this one just really ticks me off. But it was like, so I live in this very international city, blah, blah, blah.
Before the election, can we say this, Tiffany? We can go there, right? So before the election, I'm driving my kid to school.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: We've lost empathy. So go for it.
[00:32:35] Speaker A: I mean, we're already there. I'm driving my kid to school.
Before the election, of course, there are signs everywhere, everywhere in everybody's yard. You know, and one of the signs that we passed every single day on the way carpooling my kid to school read, stop the invasion at our border.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Invasion.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Invasion.
Invasion. And then, of course, it had signs for senators and, you know, totally people who would completely support that statement, some of whom are here as a result of recent migration themselves. And this is.
This is. What's in the yard is Stop the invasion.
So that's all I have to say about that. But, yeah, I don't know. Talk to us about the.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: The couple things.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Couple things in another life. I used to work in refugee resettlement, and very, very briefly, and in Washington, we largely resettle Ukrainians and Afghanis and even just the South Seattle area. It's like 140 nations represented. Wow.
But one of the things that when you start working at this particular organization, you do the history of refugee resettlement in the United States, and it is fascinating, and really after World War II was this realization that if we don't help our brothers and sisters in other countries as a country, not. Not as people of faith, but as a country, it's blood on our hands. It's blood on our hands as human beings if we do not help those who are in traumatic spaces and places and in need of refuge, quite literally.
And if you remember, there was.
This is. You know, in the 40s, but there was A ship with Jewish brothers and sisters that were told to turn around and go back. And they were all killed. And it was just when they came to the US border. So it was just this realization like we have an obligation to the globe and to the, to humanity.
So there was this national awakening.
And then you have all of this reform. And you have to remember, until 2016, refugee resettlement was largely bipartisan. Largely, we're talking like largely. I don't want to give a percentage because I don't want to get it wrong, but we're talking majority bipartisan. This was not really a, this was a human decency, but also a Christian response to loving our neighbor.
It was not emotionally charged. It was like, obviously we need to help people, but if we really want to scratch, if we really want to scratch, and we're going to just use your example that you provided.
Stop the invasion. When you think of the puppet, I mean, I'm going there now. You did it.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: You done did it, girl.
[00:35:37] Speaker B: When you do the puppet governments that the US has propped up in South America and the reason we have the issues we do and we act like we weren't part of the reason this is a issue in the first place. We are kidding ourselves. We are kidding ourselves.
We Choose Welcome. Highly recommend. If you're not familiar with them listeners, check them out.
Just the education they provide around migration, specifically not just immigration, but migration from the southern border will really give you a greater understanding of the landscape of how the US relations with countries that they've wanted to have control over has contributed in a great way to the problems that exist now.
And, and I just want to say, like this blanket, rash, vile statement that you just shared is, is just really a great example, I think, about how I was, I did a border encounter with We Choose Welcome a couple years ago, just about two years ago, and sitting on in the border with families who fled the unspeakable in Venezuela. And it's largely women and children. So when we talk about even this quote, unquote, invasion, you were talking about women and children. Alexis.
We happen to be in this country with US birth certificates and passports. And I don't think we always are cognizant of the power we hold with that.
I'm foreign born and I became a citizen when I was 5 and hold that US passport. My son is foreign born. And when I think about the power it holds to have that and the responsibility it holds to have that and to learn and to again operate with empathy, it is our honor and our, our pleasure. To learn and listen and help and advocate for humanizing policies for people who have a heart and want a beautiful life, just like we do.
[00:37:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so glad. I mean, I'm, I'm glad you went there. Thank you for that.
My son is also foreign born, you know, but holds that U.S. citizenship. And if I'm being really frank, when we were applying for that for him, we had an attorney recommend that we kind of jump through some extra hoops when it came to the bureaucracy to really make sure that everything was sealed for him. He's adopted.
And because this was coming up on when Trump was going to start serving his first term, and they basically just said, we don't, we don't know, you know, what may, what may happen, what he may try to, you know, to accomplish when it comes to policies with immigration. And we could see that the first time was hard. This time is much, much worse.
But you know, I just think about.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: How.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: As you say, like, even if we take the refugee resettlement as an example to say there was a time when we just thought this really isn't controversial. My son isn't a refugee. But that isn't an example of saying like, this wasn't controversial, but then now there's not a lot of, you know, nuanced conversation. There's not a lot of like humanity given. It's just a very binary. Yeah, this, if, if, if this is the case for someone, then they are not welcome, you know, according to this administration.
And we have to choose to think about this differently, you know, as, as people who, who claim to, to want to follow Jesus to try and, and, and contribute to this kingdom life that he taught us about. Like, we have to choose to ask questions. We have to choose to say why, why is, would that be the case?
You know, it's become popular to talk about this, but I think rightfully so in some of the circles I run in. But we say, well, Jesus had to, and his family had to flee a government that was dangerous for them.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Dangerous. Yes.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: And I'm so grateful that the place where they went received them and, and allowed them to stay during the time when it was very dangerous for them to be at home.
You know, I, you know, anyway, there's lots of other things. Can I add to that? Since you.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: Let's, let's again, just to add to what you said, read it in scripture. In Matthew 25, we read it as stranger, but in the original language it actually read as foreigner. Yeah, I was a foreigner and you all. So it to be able to rightly understand Scripture. It was like. No, the stakes were high back then, too. To your point. I love that you just pointed that out. Even Jesus was able to be the recipient of care from an oppressive, unjust government. And, And I think that we just.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: Wow. We.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: We just forget that so easily. And, And I don't want to downplay the complexity of these issues.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: They're so complex.
Even with somebody with ex. You know, a very little experience working in refugee resettlement. And that's refugee resettlement largely coming from refugee camps. And, and this is just helpful information. If somebody's been in a refugee camp, they've likely been there 18 to 20 years.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: An entire generation has been there before. They have been granted status to come to the United States or, or go to Germany or France or wherever it has space to accept and welcome them.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Can you say that time frame again? Because I remember the first time I learned that, it took me, like, a whole day to digest that.
[00:42:01] Speaker B: Oh, it took me like a week.
18 to 20 years. Somebody has been in a refugee camp. So when you talk about a refugee camp, you're talking about the need for rest and home and space on hold for 18 to 20 years.
Yeah. You had your kids in that camp.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:19] Speaker B: You're trying to build a life in that camp.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: You've missed out on a lot while you've lived there.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. It just took. It was a. A very long time before I, I. And it's. And that's a statistic that still.
Yeah, that's still my mind. So I think, I think, you know, to get back to kind of the larger umbrella of all of this, I really feel like when I look at these studies as a whole, when I look at the work that PAX is doing, when I look at the kinds of conversations that, that we're trying to encourage with this kind of thing, I think it's, It's.
You said it earlier. It's. It's the humanity.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Can we just bring the, the humanizing back to this? Because people aren't numbers. They aren't issues, they aren't topics. They aren't, you know, like, this is stuff that affects people.
[00:43:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:43:20] Speaker A: Every single day. Migration, mental health, liberation, peace. Like, these are things that are affecting people every single day. And I think about the desires. If we, you know, again, look at Jesus, like, what did he want for us? You know, what did he show us? I think a lot of what we see, even in some of these stories that, that Feel everything from feeling very, you know, actually being miraculous, like some of these healings, but even to parables.
He just saw people.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:00] Speaker A: And he heard them, and he was attentive to who they were and asked them real questions that reading about it later seems silly, like, do you want this? Or what do you need right now? You know, but he's interacting. He's not even assuming that he knows sometimes what they need, but asking them, like, how can I help you? What do you need from me?
Giving them agency to answer those questions and then having the compassion to respond.
We have missed that quite a bit lately.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: And it. And it requires an assessment of our relationship with power.
You know, we talk about liberation.
That requires a release of power. We talk about peace. That requires an acknowledgment that we're not in control. Again, a power issue. You talk about migration. That is. That is all power and boundaries and policy. And then you talk about mental health when we're at the end of our rope. And so I think that an examination of our relationship with power, going back to what we talked about earlier, leads to curiosity and humility, make space for empathy so we can do this. This. This deep work. Now, I know I gave an inflammatory example earlier, as did you, of things that we're witnessing out in the wild, but I will also say, listeners, I think it's really wise for us to not only lean into places of nuance and. And work by informed, especially people of color on a lot of these issues, but I think it's also to cap our exposure to that which is not wholesome, good, and pushing toward communal renewal. I think it's a. Both. And like, let's take the rest of 2025 and lean in and learn and next year and the year after, but really in. In these last several months of the year, but also be very cognizant of any sort of propaganda that does not center the work, life, and modeling of Jesus Christ.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: That's good.
That's really good. Because sometimes, I mean, it's just. It's easy to see it and get frustrated and, you know, whatever. But. Yeah, and I'm glad you named it as propaganda. Okay.
I'm glad you named it as propaganda. My bad. No, I'm glad. I'm glad.
Tiffany, finish us off.
And I'm wondering, in your work, we've named a lot of things that are good to have on our radar as we consume the news, as we interact with people, as we try and find our place in different communities that we're a part of we talk about, you know, peace and power and dignity and empathy and humanity and all of those kinds of things. But I'm curious, as a woman of color, you've named these things about yourself, a woman of color, foreign born, someone who works in, you know, Christian life and community.
What are some of the things that you have found to be as you talk to people, but even for yourself, that you have found to be most helpful as you're navigating your personal role or your gifts or where you think you know, you, you know, have a place in, in these conversations? You know, some people may be more prone to advocacy or, you know, I know someone right now who's found a lot of time on his hands. He's at all of the protests, you know, or you know, someone who's like, love it, doing the, doing the writing or whatever, but, you know, just like, I don't know, maybe it's just some things that you found that have been helpful as people just kind of try and navigate where their place is and.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Wow, what a great question. I would say it's a two part answer. First, my inner life is determining my outer life. So making space and time for contemplation. Contemplation absolutely saved me.
Just growing up in a pretty challenging home and then just finding myself in challenging seasons of parenting.
Contemplation has been my absolute magnificent refuge, as Teresa of Avila calls it. And so I would say attending to the soul and sitting in the presence of God with no agenda, just sitting in the presence of God, it restores me on a cellular level. So I'd say that's the first thing. And then secondly, I love how Toni Morrison talks about her contribution to the civil rights movement was writing.
And I was so blessed by that because sometimes I'm like, I'm such a diplomatic, very collaborative individual. And I'm not clickbaity, I'm not outrage, I'm not. That's not my bent. And, and you know, that's due to years of assimilation, but also enneagram3, you know, like I'm just.
And again, it goes back to this passion about on ramps and inviting everyone's best selves to thrive and see their role in communal renewal. So I would say I've largely found my place as contributing, writing and orally and speaking and different things like that. That is gentle and inviting and humanizing. Because I really believe, Alexis, the majority of us, wherever you fall on the spectrum of policy, we, the majority of us, want the same things. I think we're more alike than we're different, and I'm really stuck to that. So being able to find that middle ground and being able to invite people to not only humanize each other, but find community and connection.
So a step beyond the humanizing, truly connection, I think, is my, is my delight and my passion. And again, that's largely been through speaking and writing.
[00:50:16] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Tiffany. This has been really, really wonderful. I can truly say we went to some kind of unexpected places, but all of them totally fun, really valuable, and I just, yeah, I just look forward to these conversations continuing.
I'll name real quickly just the, just the quick titles of these studies that PACS and IBP have partnered on. They have various release dates and I'll put all of those in the show notes. But we've got Let Peace Reign by Drew Jackson, Liberated by the Cross by Christelle Acevedo, Mental Health by Dorcas Changtosin, and Migration by myself and Dorcas as well. And hopefully, I won't say hopefully, I really believe these are going to put some these are some amazing tools to put in all of our hands with contributors from all over that are just so heartfelt, thoughtful, beautiful. There's a place for contemplation in these studies. There's places for activism and there's places to for prayer and for and for study. And so I'm just looking forward to what those will bring for individuals and their communities as those are released, as you said, into the so thanks for being with me, Tiffany.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[00:51:40] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes Music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit
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