Episode 267 - Amy Dixon & Rob Dixon

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. So I'm really excited. I've done a few group interviews or interviews with partners or peers, but I was trying to think. I don't know if I've ever interviewed a husband and wife team before. I've done a father and daughter and then some co authors for sure, but this might be the first husband and wife interview. So thanks for coming on. Amy and Rob, thanks for having us. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, fun to be here. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Well, I'm really excited. This is also one, maybe a first, where we're going to be talking about two books today, which might. I feel like I need to take a deep breath. That might sound overwhelming, like, oh, my goodness, two books. That is a lot. There is a lot to cover in both of them, so that's not a joke. One of them also does happen to be a children's book. So it's just a little bit shorter. The content is a little bit shorter, but it's very profound as well. So we are going to be chatting today about the book that Amy and Rob co wrote called Penny Preaches. And it is beautifully illustrated, by the way, and written. And then also Rob's book called Together in Ministry, Women and Men in flourishing partnerships. And I shared with Rob before we got started that his book is. It's overdue for me to read that book. And probably this interview, me asking for this interview is probably overdue as well. But this is one of those books that has come up multiple times as I've spoken with women, especially, and in full disclosure, spoken with women who are pastors in part of my process of, you know, calling and vocation and all of those kinds of things. And the name kept coming up. You need to read Rob Dixon on this. So I'm really grateful for both of you to be on the podcast today. [00:02:38] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Amy. I would love to start with your book when I kind of was looking at this and kind of outlining it so there's no spoilers. This is a beautiful. A beautiful children's book. But this is, I feel like the outline of this book is what I went through in my life, but also what I saw, what I've seen so many of my peers going through and testifying that they. That they have gone through, which is my little bullet points are. She wants to. To preach, right? She feels called to preach. Then she has some boys and sometimes some girls, but in this case, boys tell her that she can't. And then she sees it being modeled by a woman and thinks maybe she can again, and then she does it. And that is the story over and over and over and over again that I hear from women. And I'm wondering, a, did I do that justice? Is that outline okay? And does that. I mean, does that also ring true for you? Have you seen this in women that you have encountered over your years in ministry? [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yes, you did it justice. You summarized it perfectly. Yeah, I mean, I think so. Rob and I, we were on staff together with intervarsity christian fellowship in the late nineties, and we definitely, as my. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Kids are calling it these days, and. [00:04:31] Speaker B: We were both on staff together at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, California. And that was where some of these first questions about women in leadership started to crop up. And I think that definitely was some of the things that I saw in that time period was women with leadership gifts feeling called to lead in not just preach, but to lead. And then it being questioned by those around them. And this was in a college environment, and unfortunately, the models in church. Church were few and far between. We had models in our parachurch organization. We had wonderful models of women who were amazing leaders and who could preach really well. But, yeah, so, definitely, I think this has been our experience, I think, as well. It's been such a blessing. I mean, this book came about in a lot of ways because of the research that Rob has done. And I. A lot of his research has been just interviewing women, conversations with women who have felt called to lead, called to preach, and kind of their journeys and what they've encountered. So, yes, it was backed up. So, yes, it was our experience, and then also backed up by Rob's research that he had done. [00:06:07] Speaker A: But it's not every day that we hear that this children's book came about because of doctoral level scholarship. So I'm wondering, like, can you speak just a little bit more to, like, why a kid's book on this subject? [00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's kind of funny, because Rob is the one who had the idea to do this kid's book, and I've been in children's literature for a while now. I have three other picture books I have a middle grade novel that I've written. I work in publishing. So he kind of came to me with this idea initially. I kind of shut it down. I was like, I don't know. Like, this feels like I just didn't have a vision for it. And so I said, hey, why don't you write it, and I'll be your editor? And just, like, so I can kind of see where you're going with this, I think. And this is maybe where Rob can jump in, because he definitely said something about, like, wanting to start earlier with kids. So, Rob, do you want to jump in here in terms of your thoughts on how this book came about? [00:07:18] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember thinking, how hard could it be to write a picture book? Turns out, for listeners, it's very hard. I mean, I write 60,000 word books, but this is a different thing where every single word counts so significantly. Right. When you're dealing with a manuscript that's this short. So it was a real eye opener for me to start working on it. But, yeah, I think the motivation for me was largely around the narratives you're talking about, and, I think sort of trying to get something on paper that would help influence earlier. So I spent a lot of my time trying to help the church and people in the church reimagine or rethink or restructure lots of words that start with re. How they do church in order to become a place where women can be empowered and thrive and women and men can work together more effectively. That's a lot of work to reshape things, to reimagine theology or structure or culture or you name it. And so writing penny, or at least the process of starting to work on penny, was me thinking, I wonder if we could start earlier, and then maybe we avoid some of the later turmoil that comes from trying to reshape something that's been in place for so long. Right. So, yeah, it was sort of our effort to start with kids and families and helping them think about how women make contributions to church leadership earlier as opposed to later. [00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, too, like IVP kids, one of their kind of tagline things is that they just want to create books that are conversation starters. And who knows where a family might end up on the spectrum of this idea of women preaching? But even if it's just to spark a conversation, that's okay, too. It's just, we just wanted families and kids to start envisioning this earlier. But, yeah, but. So, Rob, so to finish the story of how the manuscript came about is Rob wrote, like, a first draft, and he sent it to me, and I kind of, like, sent him some notes back. And then I said, you know, why don't you try this and develop the character in this way a little more? And so then he sent it back, and I said, well, that's not exactly what I was thinking. And I said something like this. And then I proceeded to kind of rewrite the manuscript, and then he came back to me and was like, okay, this is so much better. Like, can we just do this together? And so then I was like, okay, yeah, let's just write this together. So, yeah, it ended up being a really fun process for us, kind of the back and forth and, yeah, crafting the story together. [00:10:13] Speaker A: But, yeah, I love that so much. And, Rob, I am really appreciative of you pointing out what work goes into writing, writing a children's book like this one. I wonder if I can just ask for a moment, for a pause, because I would love to spend most of our time talking about the flourishing of women and men in ministry. Like both of these books focus on at the same time. I'm aware that there are probably people listening who are in different places in their process, just like you mentioned, Amy, like, we don't know where families are going to end up on the spectrum. I'm thinking of myself and going through this process. So I did not prep you for this, but I'm wondering, and I'm betting that you guys probably have some off the top of your head, do you have resources that. I don't necessarily want to say it this way, but I will, for clarity's sake, that serve as kind of an apologetic in support of women in ministry leadership. I'm wondering. I can make a list and put it on the page for this episode. If you don't have anything right now, that's fine. Maybe you can think about it and email me. But just thinking this conversation isn't necessarily going to be that we're not going to. We joked earlier about spending 30 minutes in Timothy. We're not going to do that where we're going to proof this out. But for some folks, that might be a stumbling block to this conversation at all. They might be in the position like Penny was in this book, where that's all they've heard their whole lives are, you can't preach. Or my pastor is a man, or my pastor, who is a man says x, y, and z. And so I'm wondering if there might. If you guys might be just thinking of some of those off the top of your head, like, read this or watch this. That might be helpful for some folks. And then we kind of get back on track with the rest of this conversation. [00:12:17] Speaker C: Sure. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Anything come to mind? [00:12:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean. Sorry, do you want me to answer this? Like, yeah, go ahead. Okay. So, yeah, that's great. [00:12:28] Speaker A: If you have any. If not, yeah, yeah, let me. [00:12:31] Speaker C: So, a few options. So, first of all, before I get to, like recommendations, maybe one thing to say is, I think a lot of people in the world and the church have a theology on women in leadership that has been informed by the churches they've been in, or maybe a sermon they heard once upon a time or the culture of the family they were raised in, but they haven't done the work themselves in the text. And I think there's a gulf between often between kind of what we believe and then the actual personal study and reflection, theological reflection that people have done. I mean, when I'm asked this question about kind of how do we work on our theology, the first answer is, well, get in the scripture yourself. Like, roll up your sleeves and do the good, hard work of trying to suss out the text, ideally in community and the leadership of the spirit. I mean, all of that. Do the good Bible study work that I hope folks know how to do. I think that's the first place to start, because what I've seen, I many times, is people that have a more restrictive view of women in leadership open the scriptures, and then all of a sudden, they're making some good observations, and then they're generating some questions and they're interrogating their kind of perspective in a really kind of healthy and fun way. And oftentimes they come out the other side with a different view. So I think that's the place to start, is what are the places in your life for listeners who. Where they can sort of roll up their sleeves and get into the text? Right now, in terms of resources, there are plenty. I mean, this topic of women in leadership is a disputed one and has been for generations. And so there's been a lot of ink spilled. I have a book. I have a bookshelf full of books that speak to this topic. So, I mean, I could put a couple. I'll send a couple. We can put in the show notes, maybe, but one that comes to mind is called discovering biblical equality. To me, it's like the baseline book. It's published by Intervarsity Press, and it's structured in a way that if you have a particular question, you can look it up in the book. It's maybe not meant to be read cover to cover, but it's more like, I have a question about this passage, and it will answer that or give you one way to answer that passage or that question. For those who want to maybe search around online, a couple of websites come to mind. One is called CBE International. CBE International. It's hosted by Christians for biblical equality, and it's a great similar. It's a great site for. I have a question about this passage, or I don't know how this works. How does you know? So that's a great place to go for that. And then also online, I'd recommend a website called the Junya Project, J U n I A, who is a woman mentioned in romans 16 seven as prominent among the apostles. And so Junia has a site dedicated to her, and that's a great one, too. There's other books I could recommend, but those would be a couple that come to mind. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks, Rob. I really appreciate that. And thanks for taking the pause to kind of address the question first. I appreciate that. Amy, do you have anything to add to that in this little commercial break? Okay, good. Thank you. I think that that will be helpful, because I know that I have a lot of peers and colleagues and friends and family who really are still kind of, you know, either on the fence or not really sure how they feel about this. Maybe they anticipate. They kind of have the feeling that their views might be starting to change. But as with any theological, you know, topic, the changing part can be a real struggle for some of us, maybe most of us. So I appreciate you talking about that. Okay, so back to these. I am grateful also that as we're talking about, penny preaches, and then. And then also moving into talking as well, about Rob's book together in ministry, that we're using the terminology leadership, that it's not just about preaching. I think that is, you know, obviously one of the most public places where we see that. But leadership in general tends to be a question. There's been lots going on, even in the last couple of years, with some major denominations on titling and roles, and what do these things look like? I live in Texas, and so I will say even just kind of doing a quick little, you know, job search for pastoral roles, not equal opportunity employers. Meaning, you know, these listings don't come up as qualified candidate. Will Xyz. It comes up as he. Right. We're looking for a pastor who, blah, blah, blah. He will, he will, he will. And it is just assumed in most of these places that the qualified candidate will be a he. And so even regionally, my experience is that this isn't a done deal for many inside of the church. Rob, that might be my first question. You talked about my first question for you specifically because you talked about doing a lot of rework in the church, but you guys served in Amy, as you mentioned, in a parachurch ministry. And that's been my experience, too. Sometimes parachurch ministries look different. There might be a different level of freedom or maybe informality or something that allows for women to do things that they are not allowed to do, kind of in a structured. In a church setting. So, Rob, I'm curious what you found when you were talking to women, maybe not exclusively about that distinction, but. [00:18:35] Speaker B: What. [00:18:35] Speaker A: You found when you talked with women about working in ministries and leadership in churches, some of their experience, maybe even with that tension. [00:18:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Well, it certainly is attention. Right. I remember women telling me stories about how they could do a set of things in their intervarsity life and then just crossing the threshold of a church sanctuary meant that all of those things were now, you know, sort of not allowed. And the dissonance that that caused. Right. For them. And I think that's a real problem, you know, for the church that a woman can plant, lead a church, let's say, in some other part of the world, and then has to come home and, you know, they can't get behind the pulpit or they share, not teach or whatever it is. Right. And I think, yeah, that's a. I grieve for women who have that experience, you know, and I think it says it communicates a lot. I think oftentimes people will say, well, this is just the way the Bible, you know, just my theological understanding. But there's a person that this is affecting. And I think for those women, that's a really, really painful experience. Right. So I think with intervarsity, I mean, and this is probably true of any faith community, actually, or organization. You know, your mileage may vary, right. So your. You know, what's. You may find that there are moments where it actually, you know, doesn't live up to its billing, so to speak. I mean, inter varsity has been proudly a place where women are allowed to do any and every kind of ministry role since its inception, which is going on. I don't know. Is it 40 years now or. No, 90. No, sorry. Almost 80, 90 years now. And so that's a long history. But the truth is we haven't always got it right as an organization. And I think there's just always something to work on, right? So, I mean, people sometimes will meet with me and ask me, well, what do we need to change? And I could just go through a huge list. Right? So let's talk theology. Let's talk about your structures. Let's talk about your culture, your organizational culture. Let's talk about your HR policies. Let's talk about the unspoken but potent stories and narratives that shape your community. There's just a lot of different things we could focus on. I think that's where to change. The church, big C church. We got to work hard and all hands on deck, and it's going to take some courage, and it's going to take some boldness and some intentionality, I think, to bring that kind of change. So, I mean, will it happen in my lifetime? In our lifetime? Framing? I probably not. But we want to do our part. And so I think that's where penny, and together in ministry come in, is trying to give the church a challenge, a prophetic challenge, to be different, to operate in a way that we think more aligns with God's heart for women in leadership. [00:21:38] Speaker B: So, yeah, I would say, just to add to that, too, I think my experience in parachurch was amazing, but I would often be told, like, the issue of women in leadership. I mean, it's like a peripheral issue. It's like, this is not like a gospel thing. And we just. It's kind of like one of these outer issues which used to drive me me nuts, because I'm like, okay, except you are saying that the thing that I feel deep in my soul, that I am called to do, which is to be in leadership, that that is not who I am, and that's not what God is calling me to do. I once got told that God decided to use me in spite of my disobedience. Basically, when shown the fruit of the ministry, they said, well, that's just God deciding to use you in spite of your disobedience. So you're calling me disobedient. But this is not a central issue. This is not something that we need to really be worried about. And that was always really, really tough for me. So, yeah, I'll just add that. [00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I remember reading that in together in ministry, and it's just. Oh, my goodness, this is. This is. This is wild. I want to add just a little bit of something to that. Before I get to. I'm going to backtrack and ask a question I probably should have asked first, but I have spoken to multiple women who are pastors but also have a public platform in some way or are authors. And I've heard the same sentiment from a few of them. And I felt this when you were talking, Amy, which is, I didn't become a pastor so that I could defend why I can be a pastor. Like, I became a pastor to pastor, not to. Yes, I am a woman, but I didn't. That's not the reason I'm here is to basically continually defend why I. Why I have the ability to be here or the right to be here or the, you know, whatever it is. And I think that that often happens is, you know, like you. You feel called to be in leadership. This. I'm grateful for this work. This is part of it. But this isn't where it's like, oh, my goodness, now I have to constantly defend why I'm here. Can I just be here and work? You know, the men in this space don't have to constantly defend why they're here. They just show up and work. And can we show up at work, you know? So, anyway, so I just kind of. Kind of felt that I want to throw that out there. Yes. I want to go back a little. Kind of backtrack. Yeah, go for it. Go for it, Rob. [00:24:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a place where us guys need to step up our game. Right? So, I mean, I think you're right. You shouldn't, unless you feel called to. I think you shouldn't have to defend your leadership position. But that's a place where I can, you know, and so I think one of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately, and I'm actually doing some writing on this right now, is, what does it look like to develop more men into more effective allies to women in the workplace, ministry workplace? And I think about, well, this is one clear place where I think we can step up and do some of that work. We want to be sensitive, obviously, if women, if the battle should be fought by the women, great, we can support that. But if not, how can we, in our networks, advocate, you know, and be an ally for women? [00:25:16] Speaker A: No, I think allyship is really powerful in that way. You know, I remember when America was, we were dealing with our racial reckoning in a real concentrated way in 2020, and I was having a conversation with one of my black girlfriends. I've shared this before on the podcast, and she gave me permission to do it, but we're, you know, we're both crying on the phone. I just said I don't. I don't know what I can do, you know, and. And, you know, I can talk about it. And she basically said, you need to keep talking about it, because unfortunately, there are only. There are some people who will only hear this from someone who looks like you. You know, she said, they won't hear it from me. My black girlfriend tells me this. They won't hear it from me. And so I think that a similar thing applies here. You know, if we have men who are allies there, if a man does not believe a woman can be teaching, then why is a woman defending her ability to teach? Why would he hear that? Right. [00:26:07] Speaker C: Right. [00:26:07] Speaker A: He won't hear that because he doesn't think he can be taught by her. But if he believes he can be taught by you, ah, then there might be an opening. You know, there might be an opening if he's. If he's willing to hear it. So I think. [00:26:19] Speaker B: I do think that's. Yeah, I think, too, that sometimes when we advocate for ourselves, it's just viewed as self interest and trying to grab power and all these things. And so it is such a blessing to have someone like Rob having a voice in that so that it's not viewed in that way. [00:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I completely agree. I completely agree. And in that, again, I want to backtrack. This probably should have been question zero on this, but both of these books are not just about elevating women in ministry or leadership. They really are about partnership. And one of the places I feel like I saw that Amy in Penny preaches was when the family decides to go to a church where there is a woman who is preaching on that Sunday. And that was just, like, a really beautiful scene for me and Rob and together in ministry, this is what this whole book is about, is the partnership between men and women in ministry. And I do want to be specific and say in the paradigm that I was raised in, when I say that people immediately, in my context and community that I was raised in would say, oh, of course, your husband and wife. So this is the pastor and his wife, and they are flourishing together in ministry, which I'm just going to be blunt, and I'm not trying to be ugly, but in a lot of settings, like where I live in Texas and in the Bible belt, what that looks like is the wife coming on as an unpaid staff member, usually doing a full time job, essentially, you know, working with children or putting together all of the fellowships, you know, or all of those things. And there's no recognition, there's no title. There's no authority. There's no paycheck. It is she. This is her duty, because she is married to a man who is a pastor. That is not what this book is about, and that is not what your research talks about. Your research talks about men and women partnering together in mutuality for flourishing in ministry. So I'm wondering if even theologically, you would talk about that a little bit and clarify for some, again, for folks who may be like, oh, yeah, I know exactly what he means. And then you're like, they start to read. They're like, oh, this is not what Rob is talking about. [00:28:56] Speaker C: Yeah, well, yeah, I think it starts for me with Genesis one. Genesis one's unique. Genesis one and two are unique because there's no sin in the picture, right. And when God creates, it's sort of just the way God intends it to be. Right? And two things stand out to me. One is men and women are created in the image of God. And it's not like Adam is more of the image of God or it's 51 49. It's just they're created in the image of God, which I think is this mysterious and yet wonderful, beautiful picture of harmony and mutuality and inequality. And then the second thing there is that women and men are jointly called to steward creation, fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion, the text says, over all the creeping things that creep on the ground or whatever, and same thing, that command there is given to them equally. And there's no differentiation. You know, Adam, you take the lead in that process. Eve, you support and give Adam what he needs. It's not like that. It's just you together do this thing. And so for me, that's the foundation of why we would pursue healthy, equal flourishing partnerships between women and men. It's right there at the beginning of your Bible. And then, you know, there's a lot of twists and turns in the tale, the rest of the scriptures. But I would say the trajectory of the scriptures is it affirms and aligns with Genesis one. And so you have Jesus and how he treats women. You have Paul and how Paul partners with so many women. I mentioned Junia earlier, right? There's just a way in which that's normative for Jesus, and it's normative for Paul in a cultural context that's so restrictive for women. So, yeah, I think it starts for me in Genesis one, and then it persists through the rest of the scripture. That's the predicate. I mean, that's why we would talk about women and men working together in ministry and trying to do that well is because when God had the chance to lay it all out there free of sin, that's the vision. That's the Genesis vision from God. So, yeah. [00:30:58] Speaker A: This is for both of you? [00:30:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Why is that so hard? [00:31:03] Speaker C: Oh, Mandy, do you want me to start? Aim. [00:31:07] Speaker B: Go ahead. [00:31:07] Speaker C: Okay. Well, I mean, obviously the text doesn't stop at Genesis one and two. Genesis three comes into the picture. Right. And that's where sin comes into the world. And. And, of course, one of the consequences of rebellion, human rebellion. Human sin is a power dynamic between women and men. Right. Your desire will genesis 316. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. And that's the. That's the origin of all the misogyny and the patriarchy and the. That we've dealt with ever since 2000 years, more than that, of dealing with that sort of baked in misogyny and male rule. And I think the question is, was that God changing God's mind? Oh, you know what? Actually, let's create hierarchy here. I don't think that's what's happening there. I think that's God saying, this is the sad and tragic consequence of sin. And I always like to say, I don't want to be a part of perpetuating any system that has its origins and human sin. Right. So let's do everything we can to overturn the curse and better reflect Genesis one is kind of the way I would think about that. And so, together in ministry was my effort to, I guess, create a roadmap, prophetic roadmap, for how we can live out Genesis one day in, day out. Even in a world where we're still dealing with the consequences of sin in this area. Yeah, I think it's possible to do it. It takes, like I said earlier, it takes courage, it takes intentionality. It's not just going to happen. You're going to have to work to make it happen. Right. But it's good and holy work, I'd say. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Amy, anything to add? Yeah, I would just say. I mean, Rob says this all the time, and it just always resonates. [00:32:50] Speaker A: It's. [00:32:51] Speaker B: You know, we're trying to do the mission of the kingdom. We're trying to live out the mission of the kingdom with a half the team on the bench, and it just doesn't make sense, you know? And there's so much fruit that you can point to when you look at women leading in the church and. Yeah, so, you know, to answer your question, I have no idea why it's so hard. Probably because of what Rob said. But there's just so many things that point to the equal and full partnership of men and women being really the best case scenario for the mission of the church advancing. [00:33:29] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, I was talking with a pastor a while back, and this, remarkably, was someone who had led a congregation through this theological change, including changing denominations, from one that was not affirming of women in ministry to one that was affirming of women in ministry. And this was, you know, I just asked him, like, tell me about that. You know, like, tell me about that change. What was it for you? Because he was an established pastor, this wasn't something, you know, that he did in his second year in the pastorate. And one of the things that he noted that it was an evolution for him, which, you know, was obvious, kind of the looking at it from the outside. But one of the things he said was they had women in their congregation, and in this case, he was. He focused on preaching to kind of answer the question, but it was more than that. And he said, you know, these women were very gifted preachers, very, very gifted in the pulpit. And he just, you know, said listening to them, in part made him just kind of realize how much he was missing. Like, you're exactly right, with half the team on the bench. And it wasn't just about, even though it might have been initially, more about, like, oh, theologically, I've changed my perspective. Now I need to check these boxes by having these women in these places. But once the women were in the places, then it was like, oh, my goodness, what have we been missing out on this whole time from having women in these spaces? And that just felt. It was really honest. I felt like it was just a really sincere answer. But I think about that frequently as I sometimes sit in meetings where I might be the only woman, or I've looked into rooms in organizations where I'm like, every person in that room is a man. How, you know, these. There are a questions that are being answered, you know, by. By someone who doesn't. Has never had this experience, or I won't. I won't give the person away. But someone. This was in a secular organization not too long ago. Amy, I hope you get a kick out of this. They were talking about dress code, corporate, you know, kind of dress code, and talking about women needing. You know, there was a question. Do women need to wear pantyhose when they're wearing skirts? And, yes, your face. I wish everyone could see it. And then, you know, were. This was when messy buns were, like, really in style, you know? And it was like, you know, there. There was a question about messy buns. And the man who was telling me this was like, I'm looking around the room going, there are no women in the room even giving input into these questions about their dress code. None of us have ever worn pantyhose. You know, we don't. And this. I'm not talking. This is in the two thousands. Okay? Like, I don't know. I don't even know if anyone sells pantyhose anymore. But, like. But just thinking about what a difference this makes. I love that image of half the team being on the bench. What a difference does it make when we just decide we're not going to hear from half of the team? [00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:59] Speaker A: That's wild. [00:37:01] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons to push for change in this area theologically. I think, you know, there's a justice angle to this, but there is the missional angle. And I think about, you know, over 2000 years of church history. What have we lost by not identifying women's gifts and then putting them in positions to use those gifts? Like, how many. How many people haven't come into the kingdom? Or how many, you know, whatever it is, right. Whatever the metric is, what have we lost by not promoting women and allowing women to use their gifts? I think it's. I think it's a tragic story is what it is, right? It's a sad thing and it's unjust, and it's all of the above, but, yeah, what have we lost? Right? [00:37:45] Speaker A: Rob, you tell a story in your book that I hope I'm not going to mess up, but I remember this anecdote about a partnership in ministry, and a man and a woman were doing maybe a conference together or something like that. So they were taking turns at the podium. I don't remember that it was an actual sermon, but there was an observation that the male partner, when he wasn't speaking, was looking at his female partner when she was speaking. So you're nodding your head like you remember this. I'm wondering if you can talk about that anecdote and then, like, what are the implications? Like, what. What are the ramifications of how that partnership, they. How those two decided to do that work together? [00:38:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the story is, this came from an interview I did where he, he told me about a co preaching. They were co preaching, I think it was at a conference, and, and when he wasn't the one that was on the mic. He purposefully turned and faced the woman. And. And I said, wow, that's significant to me to hear that. And what I was thinking is. And I told him, this is, I. Whenever I'm co preaching with a woman, which I do fairly frequently, is I'm going through my notes, I'm trying to get ready for what I'm gonna say next, right? I'm like, I got a task. I gotta get ready to get back on the mic. And so it stood out to me that he made that choice to turn and face her. And he said. And when I asked him about it, he said, well, yeah, I want to model for the crowd, what it looks like to live or to sit under the leadership authority of a woman. And I want to be a good partner. And when he said those things, I was like, wow, this is so powerful. Because, again, when I'm in that situation, I'm not thinking about those things, right? So at the end, I mean, who knows who in the crowd at the conference, like, noticed and go, went, oh, look at that. But maybe some did, right? And I. And so I think for me, it's about the little things in a lot of ways. You know, like, I have some big things I'd like to do in the church, right? I'd like to change a lot of things about the church, right? But I think what that story says to me is that oftentimes it is making little choices to better embody this vision for Genesis, one vision for women and men created equally, working together to rule and reign and steward God's creation. I think it's little choices we make that then start to add up, and it creates momentum, maybe. So it's about modeling in that environment, modeling what it looks like to. To receive teaching from a woman. It's about, you know, asking good questions of female co workers and, like, listening well to their response and entering into their world. It's about, you know, doing your theological homework. It's about, I think, having good communication saturate your partnership. It's about, you know, having friendships and not just be colleagues, work colleagues. Right. All the things I talk about in my book, it's about the little things, I think, that then add up hopefully and bring bigger picture change of the church. So, yeah, thanks for bringing that story up. I love that one. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Amy, that made me think about in your penny precious book. I occasionally get children's books to review, and my kids are too old for picture books at this point. They're ten to 14. But I still always ask them to read them when they come in. And we have two boys and two girls. And so I'm wondering if. If you can talk about that, because as Rob was answering, I'm thinking my first instinct with a book like this one is, yes, let all the daughters read it. And I'm like, uh huh. And all the sons read this. And so I guess, like, you know what? As you think about messaging this to children, how might you want little boys to receive the message of penny preaches or other. Or other stories like that? [00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like, we've already talked about a little bit. The idea with boys is to, you know, build allies, right? So I think part of that is just understanding, you know, what is happening out there, because for some boys, they don't even realize that, you know, girls, women are. They don't understand the privilege yet of being born male. So, yeah, I think it was important for us. So we have, our oldest is a boy, and then we have three girls, so we have four also. And it was always important to us to, like, overly communicate with our kids about things. So, you know, and our kids at some point, just started to hate it. Right? Cause it's like, we're watching, you know, the Super bowl, and a Carl's junior commercial comes on, you know, and it's like a sexy woman in a bikini, like, eating a burger. And of course, you know, it becomes like, let's talk about this commercial, you know? [00:43:02] Speaker A: So glad to know we're not the only ones, you know? [00:43:06] Speaker B: So just, like, bringing things to the surface. Like, why do you think that they decided to make a commercial like that? Like, what is it trying to appeal to? Like, what is it, you know, how does that affect women that, you know, so all these kinds of questions and conversations that need to be had with the boys and the girls, and in some ways, even more so with the boys, honestly, because as girls and as women, these are things that we will grow up and unfortunately, every woman will experience on some level. So it is almost more important to bring those things to the surface and have those conversations with boys so that they have an awareness and an understanding of what the issues are. [00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I'm really. I'm really grateful for that. And we are very similar at our house, you know, and having those. Having those conversations with our boys. I think it's interesting, too. I just was looking at an article, but I won't get into it. It was a political article, but it was talking about the bro vote, you know? But, like, these young men, what does masculinity look like for them? What, what is being modeled for, for them specifically? What are they drawn to? You know, and, and as we see even things, you know, things like that, I've got a middle schooler and a couple of high schoolers and some of the things that they come home with, you know, that so and so has said this, this youtuber said, you know, this, that or the other. And I'm like, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, you know, but for them, it's not ridiculous, you know, and these are really formative years. And so, yeah, so I'm right there with you. Like, how can we have these conversations? I, too, almost think, gosh, it is almost more important for the boys because I think for many women and girls, there is something innate in us that says, of course I can, you know, of course I can do this. We may not see a model that erodes. At least, you know, I saw it. For me, it kind of erodes as we grow older and we go, oh, wait a minute, I actually don't see any woman doing that. You know, here we are, 200 years into or more into our country, and we have yet to have a female, you know, president or, you know, anybody in these high offices. And it is discouraging. And I think it can kind of just end up being like, oh, well, this is the default. Men are to do this. This is the default. But I think books like yours and these conversation starters, as you mentioned, keep challenging us, like, societally to say, this isn't, maybe this isn't the default, or why does this look like, you know, the default in those? So I think that's really. I think that's really worthwhile. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Rob and Amy, there was a list together in ministry talking about gender dynamics. This isn't just in ministry. I think this is in workplace in general. And you could quote the source, I think, but these barriers is what it says, hold women back in the workplace. I am trying to tell you the number of exclamation points that I wrote next to these that I think are common in secular workplaces but also in ministerial places. But the first one that I underlined was, there is a psychological glass ceiling where women underplay their own abilities. Amy, help me, because that was very real for me. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:06] Speaker A: That was very real for me. [00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a line in, in a boy genius song that my kids, my kids. Listen to that, where she says, like, she says this thing and then she says, oh, actually, I lied. I'm just lowering your expectations and something in that just, like, resonates for women. Right. Like, somehow. And I don't know. I mean, I think it is, there definitely is something as women that were kind of taught to. And even, like, I think about my own upbringing and, like, I was, if anything, like, in a little bit more of, like, a matriarchal family, like, where my mom kind of was the boss. So it's kind of weird because I'm like, well, where did this come from for me? You know? But this idea of kind of, like, downplaying. I just had a conversation with a friend who is, she's an amazing businesswoman, and a lot of the work I do is contract. And she sat me down, and she was like, now I know you're under billing. She, right. Because I have to, like, say how long I worked on, like, each project and stuff, and she's like, don't try to tell me that you're not under billing. And I was like, well, yeah, I probably am under billing, you know, and it's like this, like, I'm lowering your expectations. I don't want to make too much of a fuss or too much noise. I'll just under bill, like, all of these things that are sort of, like, innate and. I don't know. I don't, that's where it's, like, it is such a big question. Like, where does that come from? Why? You know? So that's where you get into, like, this, you know, so ingrained, like, in society and, like, how we're kind of formed and educated as women that I hope is changing on some level, because I think about how we've raised our girls and really wanting to build self confidence and all these things that I don't think were as prioritized maybe when we were growing up, but I don't know. I mean, it's still, the jury's still out on that one. We still gotta see where that all goes. [00:49:26] Speaker A: But, yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, no, I'm, I'm right there with you. I have also been accused of underbilling. That's true. But I. The song that, when you mentioned that, when I like the song that came to my mind. I haven't studied the lyrics or anything like that, but it comes on frequently. Listen to, like, kind of old school satellite radio, like, nineties hits and stuff. Is no doubts just a girl, you know? Like, that's, I'm just a girl, you know? And one of them, I, one of the lines that I've, like, it cracks me up every time is like, because they won't let me drive late at night, you know, because I'm just a girl, you know, I'm like, this is the refrain, you know, that I, that I feel quite often is, well, I'm. I'm just a girl, you know, here I am, I'm just, I'm just under your thumb and you won't let me drive late at night. And I get it. And this girl, you know, this little old me, you know, I think it's part of it. And, yeah, I do. I think it's ingrained. Rob, did you see even that specifically or some of the other things in that list? Like did you, were those reflected to you in your interviews with women when you were doing this research? [00:50:27] Speaker C: Oh, for sure, yeah. Yeah. You could see them all in there. And I should say, too, it's Amy Diehl and Doctor Amy deal and Doctor Leanne Zabinski were the ones that articulated that list. Yeah. And there's the, I think there's a citation in my book that points people to the article, and they've actually written books on that as well. Glass walls, I think it's called glass Walls anyway. Yeah. So, yeah, I've seen it all, and not just in my research, but in my. Just ministry life. Right. To watch, you know, like, I think of one, there's one on the list called Glass Cliff, which is where women get assigned jobs that have a higher possibility of failure, you know, and I think I've totally seen that. You know, I can, I think of a specific woman right now that had to deal with a glass cliff and ultimately it failed and she had to find another place to go and serve. So, yeah, I think about all those. And so the point of that chapter in my book is when communities, organizations, when they develop a lens to see those, I think it's 27 examples of adverse gender dynamics. Then they can work to mitigate them. But if you don't have a lens to see it, I mean, they're just going to keep going on and happening in the culture of your community. Right. So I do think that's a chapter wherever I often assign it to. Groups like read this together, understand what you're looking for, and then do just be brave and do an analysis of your organization. You can actually debrief a meeting. Do we see any of these things happen in this meeting and just be rigorous about that? And once you do that sort of work of examining, then you can design ways to mitigate at all three levels. Right. It's like, I think it was like an individual level, more of like a communal level, and then at the societal level. So you can do things, but you just have to see it first. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I have one more kind of specific question for both of you. And then. And then we can wrap up a little bit more generally after that. But I was reading. Finishing up, Rob, finishing up your book by the pool last week, and my husband had the day off, and so he and I went by the pool. [00:52:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that might be a first. That might be a first. Yeah. [00:52:49] Speaker A: I read a lot of podcast books, and we're at the pool a lot. They all, almost all of them become these, like, weird, like a stereotypical, atypical pool reads. [00:52:59] Speaker C: I love that. So, listeners, it's a beach read. [00:53:02] Speaker A: That's right. Advertise it as a beach read, for sure. So we're sitting there, and my husband's reading something that was also atypical of a pool because he's kind of a history buff. But. So we're sitting there, and I began the chapter that starts talking about the Billy Graham rule. I didn't even have this on my nose to talk about. But when. But when I was kind of looking through that list again, one of the ones that I noticed was one of the barriers is often a lack of sponsorship. Right. So women come into these positions, but we don't have anyone necessarily to mentor us or to help us. You know, if it's a position where we need that and it's an organization where men are, you know, culturally the ones in leadership, then we kind of get hung out to dry because it's like, you know, I'll give you an opposite example. I took a little part time job at an organization last year, and my direct, I was direct report to a woman supervisor, and she said, you're not qualified for this job, but all the people who are making the decisions really want to hire you because we think you're the right person for the job. And she said, I'm really into. I can see your skills, and I think that they'll transfer. And so she said, I want to just train you to do it because I think if I train you to do it, you'll be able to do it and you'll be really successful. And that had proven to be the case. But she was willing to do that for me. She could see that in me, but it would not have been a given, probably, if my direct supervisor or the hiring manager would have been a man. And I think that that, again, it's secular organizations, but it's also in ministry. And so when I think about the Billy Graham rule, these are things that I'm like, I notice in organizations, I'm observant. I have stories from friends and colleagues wherever we don't get to be in the room where it happens sometimes, because Billy Graham said so all of those years ago. And so I want to start by saying, I know you'll probably clarify. I really loved the way that you wrote this chapter, because this isn't to say nobody has to have any boundaries. This is like, okay, this is one rule that we have taken and put it as a blanket over every relationship, and it doesn't necessarily apply to every relationship. And so there might be some places that might look more like Billy Graham rule, but there is nuance that is required, that's really necessary. And I think that that nuance is part of what shows the respect of both partners. And you point that out in different ways as well in that chapter. So I'm curious if, if both of you could talk about kind of, I don't know, take it where you want to take it. Where. Have you seen this? Have you seen in your personal lives? Have you seen it in, you know, research or women colleagues? And then what have been some. Some of the downfalls to just this blanket acceptance of the Billy Graham rule? And then how have you maybe seen it, people adding nuance and it being a more successful. Successful and more flourishing relationships? [00:56:20] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I can start aim or you want to start. Okay, so, yeah, so maybe let me just start by saying I was in a room full of students recently, and I said, I mentioned the Billy Graham rule, and there was a bunch of blank faces. I think the reference is dated. Right. So let me just say. Billy Graham. [00:56:38] Speaker A: Not for me. [00:56:38] Speaker C: Right, right. Not for me either. Right. Billy Graham, noted evangelist. Right. But had had this rule where he would never be alone with a woman that wasn't his wife. And the idea was to systematically take that off the table, that he would not commit some sort of moral failure, but also that there wouldn't be the appearance of impropriety. Right. And so I do. I call it the 11th commandment sometimes, right. It's become this thing, this ubiquitous, normalized thing that pastors around the world embrace as kind of the way. And I think it's really governed. Billy Graham Rule has really come to govern how partnerships are expressed between women and men in ministry. I think in the research, what came out is, number one, the Billy Graham rule hasn't solved the problem of women and men working together. So we all know, listeners will know stories of leaders who have fallen, even though they adhere to the Billy Graham rule. So we know it hasn't solved the problem. But then the second thing that came out of my research was that Billy Grammerl has had these unintended negative consequences for women. And people can read, if you have a copy of my book, read the forward by Ruth Haley Barton, who's this amazing writer, thinker, speaker. And she had this experience with the Billy Graham role. And I'm like, if it can happen to Ruth Haley Barton, it can happen really anywhere, right? And so I think about, like, what it says about women's agency. So women don't have access, like you said, to the room where it happens. And I did get the Hamilton reference, by the way, so well done there. But also. Right. What it communicates to women about being a threat, a threat and just a landmine as they walk into a room. Right. And how does that feel? Right. So we can go on. But those are a few of the negative consequences. And so the solution, if not the Billy Graham rule, then what the solution that came out in my research was, well, let's take a contextualized approach to this. Let's ask good questions about where we're each at in terms of our maturity and our health and our inner lives and things like that. And then let's make decisions about what boundaries work for us, given our context, given where we're at, and then share those boundaries with others and get accountability and move forward with wholeness. So it's a more contextualized approach that I think creates room for people to express deep partnership and to not fall into some of the traps that have traditionally marked kind of some of these things. So I like a contextualized approach. One more quick story. And then if Amy wants to add anything, I was in a room recently, not in the last year, with a group of leaders, and they have, they're heading up an organization. And in their bylaws, there is the Billy Graham rule. It's written as clear as you can write it. And they were, we were talking about the Billy Graham rule and evaluating it, and I just done my whole spiel about negative unintended consequences and all of that. And they were like, well, it's in our bylaws. Okay. I said, do you want it to be in your bylaws? Not really. Okay. Okay. Well, can you change your bylaws? Yeah. Well, then why don't you? What I'm saying? And to me, that story was so profound, because what it illustrates it's just baked into the system. Right? It's just baked in. And so I think what those folks needed was freedom to think outside of kind of that restrictive barrier that's just in place for everybody at all times, and just take a more contextualized approach that fits who they are as an organization, as a community, as individuals within that community. That's what I love about the contextualized approach, is it gives room for people to act on their convictions and what's wise for them, as opposed to just adopting this one thing that worked for a really singular person in christian history who had a really distinctive kind of experience and role. I was with a group a while back, and I remember somebody getting up and saying. We were talking about the Billy Graham rule, and it got kind of heated, and someone points at another person and goes, listen, you're not Billy Graham. And I just. I laughed because I thought, well, okay, none of us are. Like, he had a really distinctive context and situation, and I don't know that a lot of us are in that same place. And so let's. Let's take a more contextualized approach. So. Sorry. Long winded answer there. Amy. You want to add anything? [01:00:58] Speaker B: No. Just to highlight what you said about how the Billy Graham rule makes a woman feel. I mean, it's like, yeah, I definitely. I haven't encountered this much, like, in terms of someone saying, I can't do that because with you, because of the Billy Graham rule. But, yeah, it definitely reflects justification and that I have no agency. Like, if we're alone together, then I'm gonna want to do things with you. Like, I don't know. It just is. It's just very, like. It's very, like, kind of demoralizing. Like, just as a human being, to have someone, you know, say that they can't be alone in a room with you. I mean, it's kind of bizarre when I. When I really think about it playing out practically, so. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I completely agree. When I was. When I was reading that chapter in Rob's book, I'm like this. It's not that it's basic, but at the same time, it is that it's basic, because I'm like, if I think about relationships I have, I'm like, these things that you're talking about, the nuance, the boundaries, the way that we interact with each other, they differ based on what the relationship is. And that's just organic and kind of across the board, you know? I mean, I would interact with my kid's teacher in a way that is different than I interact with someone that I've been friends with for ten years, you know, and we've been to each other's homes and babysat each other's kids, you know, and so I think, yes, this makes sense that we would not have this blanket rule. And as you. As you bring up, Amy, it really speaks to respecting one another's humanity that we would choose to interact in that way and not just accept this kind of blanket rule. That became a thing that. I don't know if it was ever intended to be that way, but I would say that it hasn't played out where it's been beneficial, necessarily, to most folks who have tried to. To do this. But I'm with you, Rob. This was. This is the 11th commandment. I was introduced to it in college, in college campus ministry, which was like a really weird place to kind of be introduced to that because. Anyway, because none of us were married, so anyway, it was just. It's like all just all felt really. It just all felt really weird. But. But I appreciated that you brought it up, and as I was reading, I didn't anticipate that, but I think that it is one of those things that impacts women and men being able to partner well together. It impacts that to a degree that's probably greater than many of us really think about. So I appreciate you inviting us to think about that and practice ministry in a way that doesn't necessarily take that as a given. As we wrap up, I would love to just hear maybe some final words from each of you, and I'll just leave it really open. Sometimes I say, what's the question? I didn't ask, you know, like, about the book, about the topic. What. What is it that if you, you know, you could just kind of end wherever you want or, you know, if you have any, you know, advice to women or men who find themselves in this situation or, you know, a personal story, but anything that you think you would love to leave the listeners with as we start to close out our conversation. [01:04:45] Speaker B: I can start if that works, Rob? Okay. Yeah, just going back to penny preaches and thinking through, you know, the subtitle of the book is God gives good gifts to everyone. And one of the things that we really want this book to do for families, other than kind of normalize seeing women in preaching and leadership positions, is also encourage this idea of just really exploring how God's gifted us, because God gives good gifts to everyone and part of our job as we grow. And, you know, a lot of us don't figure it out. You know, when I think Penny's, you know, probably six or seven, we're not going to figure it out that early. Most of us, some of us, it takes till we're in our thirties or however long, you know, to really figure out what kind of our purpose in being here is. But, yeah, just this encouragement that parents can help kids explore their gifts, give them lots of, you know, different opportunities, things to try and. Yeah, that's just something that families can do together, is to explore giftedness and strength and really work on this together. [01:06:07] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's such a cool process to, like, discover what gifts God has put into your kids. I think it's an exciting kind of fun process. I mean, I think the thing I would say in closing is, you know, there's pennies everywhere in every church would be pennies that want to maybe preach or just use their gifts, and it may defy the stereotypes and it may defy kind of how we think about how church should be. And so my encouragement would be to, let's think outside of that. Let's be open to Penny's surprising us. And I think maybe the last thing I'll say is in the story, Pastor Sarah comes along and her parents take her to the church. Pastor Sarah is there on the mic in the pulpit. So who are the pastor sarahs around us that would invest in that next generation? And maybe not just the pastor Sarahs, the pastor rob's or eds or what are the guys, too, who would take an intentional choice to invest and look for the pennies and then shepherd them, mentor them to a place where they can use their gifts in the church setting. Let's all be Pastor Sarah's, I guess, is where I land the plane. [01:07:18] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you both so much. Again, these books and the other resources that were mentioned will be in the show notes. This is Penny preaches by Amy Dixon and Rob Dixon, both joining me today and together in ministry by Rob Dixon. And the links to find those will be in the show notes. Thank you both so much for being here. This is a. This was a real joy. [01:07:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Thank you for having us. [01:07:44] Speaker C: Yep. [01:07:46] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at that makestotalsense.com dot.