[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that makes total sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, so my guest for today. This was a cold call, Erin. It happens sometimes. I'm so grateful when people respond as you did and with enthusiasm and grace for my kind of novice position in this area. But I'm here today with Erin Weber Johnson, and she has co edited a volume called Crisis and Care Meditations on faith and philanthropy, which I think I haven't, like, said this out loud to many folks outside of the people who, like, live in my house or are on my text, you know, messages or go to my seminary. But I think by the time this show airs, I will be starting PhD program, Fuller Theological seminary, and my research will be focusing on this thing that Erin no one's ever heard of.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: I know.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: So anytime I say the term philanthropic redlining, which is going to be the main focus of our conversation today, I get a look like I am speaking a foreign language. So, um, I don't really want to start there, though. So, like, we'll put a pin in that.
And first, I just want to ask you to kind of briefly introduce yourself, but also give us a little bit of your background in the faith and philanthropy spaces. Because my.
I don't know what I feel like I have observed, or maybe it's just kind of my take on it right now. My perception is probably a good way to put it is this philanthropy feels kind of like this underground river. It's like this not, doesn't feel real obvious to a lot of folks, especially in faith spaces outside of kind of typical tithes and offerings or maybe a building campaign here and there or something. But I think philanthropy ends up impacting way more of our everyday lives and organizations and things like that than we realize. Um, so that just is my kind of early perception, but I would love to hear again just like a brief introduction of you. And then what? Where have you spent time in these faith and philanthropy spaces?
[00:02:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. It's so good to be here, and congratulations on your program.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Thanks, Anna.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: I have to say, it did my heart so good to know that there was someone who is gathering resources and is going to be highlighting this really important topic in the conversation of philanthropy.
I agree. I agree. Let me just first say, I believe that where money intersects with bodies, that's where we see systems of inequity. Right. And so, philanthropic redlining is one of those key intersections.
All right. Now that my thesis is out there, let me give a little background about who you're in the room with. Yes, my name is Aaron Webber Johnson. I have spent my entire vocation serving the church in some capacity or another.
I grew up evangelical. I found Jesus in the episcopal church in 2003.
I have often seen my work in various fields, one of translating, one of saying, okay, what is the language that removes barriers and provides access to relationship and connection?
With that in mind, I went to NYU, and I got a master's in nonprofit management with an emphasis both on conflict negotiation and in fundraising, because I knew that I was feeling called to the church in a non ordained way. And my experience with the church, those are two things that if there's going to be conflict, it's going to oftentimes come around money. Right.
I was recruited right out to work at the grants department at Trinity Wall street, and then began cutting my teeth doing fundraising for a foundation in New York. Did all kinds of fundraising all across the US for campaigns as small as 15,000, all the way up to 16 million. And that's where I've been for the last 20 years. But what I learned early on was that oftentimes, the resources and the language that's used didn't always align. Like, there were things that people were told they should believe or they should feel obligated to believe. And it didn't align with my real life experience.
And I began to want to learn more. And so it was there that I started taking more and more seminary courses and became deeply interested in what alternative economies might look like. And what is it that the parables that we read about are actually saying and pointing us to, et cetera, et cetera. It was then that I started to read and write and develop scholarship.
Fast forward to 2018, where. No, 2016. Where I was at.
I was a plenary speaker. Imagine being at a plenary, where I got up to speak, and I was speaking about a different way to think about money and a different way for us to think about our resources.
And then someone else got up to speak, and they gave the exact same plenary speech. Whoops, that's kind of embarrassing. And Mika van der Staal and I looked at one another and we said, I didn't know there was someone else out there. Like us. Similar to your calling me like, oh, someone else is interested in what I'm passionate about.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: This is great. Fantastic.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: At the very same time that I was meeting Mika, it was a bit of a spirit led moment.
I had also, for my denomination, we have what's called the college for bishops. It provides training for our judicatory bodies. And I had developed an annual giving curriculum with some wonderful faculty. And I was.
What I like to do is I like to take data. I love data. And I was tired of people saying, you should believe this, and you should believe that. And I wanted to say, hey, this is the data, and this is how we can show up pastorally for people. This is the language that we can use to translate the distance between their need and an exciting invitation that might answer their need. So I really like to use these characteristics, generational characteristics, owner motivations, all those sorts of things. So I'm standing up there, Alexis, and it's a packed house, which is kind of intimidating.
And Bishop Eugene Sutton, the retired bishop of Maryland, stands up, and he very graciously says to me, this data that you were reporting on, and by the way, I was using 30 different data points. 30, including pew, including all of the places that you would go to. He says, this data is really going to be helpful for my congregations that are predominantly white.
What do you have for congregations that are for color, for people that have color? And I said, huh?
And then I did that thing that as a facilitator, you do where you're like, does anybody else have that data? I would love to know if anybody else has it. Let's all learn together.
And no one, of course, had it. And then I did this thing, which I never do, but I said, you know what, Bishop Eugene? I'm going to get you that data because it's important.
And I felt it.
It was like this moment, I felt like God was talking to me saying, get this man his data.
Here's the issue. I spent the next year looking everywhere for the data. Now, let me say what that actually entails.
When you look at most studies, 99.9% of the studies that come out about giving in all of its different forms. If you look to see the demographics, the best I've seen in terms of including people of color is somewhere between four and 5%.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Oh, wait, can we.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: Can we pause there?
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: For a minute.
I am really, really glad you started here, because it is. I mean, this was like the asterisks on, on my, you know, on my notes are, tell me about the missing data.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Where is it and why isn't it there?
[00:10:09] Speaker A: Where is it and why isn't it there? Because this four to 5%.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Is this, this is the most wild thing.
I'm having a hard time fathoming it. So I don't have any, I don't have any additional question or comment or something. I'm just like, pausing because folks won't be able to see my face when I'm like, agape, like going, what is a huge deal, Erin, I'm laughing.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: This is exactly my response. First of all, how did I not know this? A. Right. This was because I've been teaching to the data, using the data for all of my strategies at that point for 15 years. Right. So I was incredulous. And then further, and this is where it becomes horrifying to me. Moves.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: That's already horrifying to me. So let's just.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah, this is where I turn. Well, this turned from, like, laughing at my own ignorance. Right. I. They're recognizing, like, the systemic evil that's taking place here.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Yes. Okay.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Was. I began to realize the impact of what happens when we are doing this. What ends up happening is that we, people who are giving consultants, people who are looking at data, who are doing the work of really wanting to contextualize and understand what's happening, we take this data and then we say, this is what you should know. This is the one way to do it. This is the right way to do it.
Not knowing that there is a whole lot of diversity out there. There's a whole lot of giving characteristics, there's a whole lot of giving strategies that we're missing out and we're not reflecting, we're not giving voice to that they're not showing up, they're not speaking their wisdom into. So.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Okay, I have. Okay, sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you again. I didn't warn you that I was going to interrupt quite this much, and I love it on it, to be completely truthful.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: But you interrupt.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Go ahead. This particular question was the one for me where I'm. I am going to have those. Okay. I need more. I need more, I need more, I need more. So when you're talking about. I just, I just want to kind of hone in a little bit and be a little bit more specific about the data.
What kind of giving is this data representing?
So when you're talk, you're talking about giving strategies, you're in the context of a den of a christian denomination.
When you're talking about most of this data that you're seeing that is not representative of people of color, what kinds of giving is that representative? Does my question even make sense?
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So.
And while you were looking for clarification, what I'm going to tell you is a long list.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: Okay, great, good.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: It informs the language that we use. For example, so did you know among Hmong congregations, there's not even a word, there's not even a concept of charitable giving. It's all in the context of family.
So imagine among parish, I can give you, right in my own judicatory body, going to their diocese training event to receive, you know, tips on how to increase their giving and being taught to. In a literal, even though it's English, in a language that does not apply to their context, with skills and strategies that don't apply in Spanish, there's not a word for stewardship.
They also have other words. The word stewardship implies ownership for quite a few. And for some that came up in a later study that we did, it implied colonialism.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Wow. So not the same thing. We're literally not even talking about the same. We're not even talking the same language. Not when we're talking about these concepts. Wow.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: No, no. And so church leaders, national leaders, regional leaders are teaching, you know, oh, these are the strategies. You show up with a pledge card.
There are congregations for whom, like, why would you pledge if you're showing up for your family? You don't do that at Christmas time, you don't fill out a pledge card when you give each other gifts. Right. Like, there was just not even a concept for what was happening.
So there's also language that's harmful. For example, the word abundance.
The word abundance is used a lot right now. It's used almost, as I would say, as a replacement to the word tithe, because tithe has had some emotional and spiritual trauma attached to it. So I think the word abundance was used by some to replace that.
And for a number of communities, the word abundance is harmful. Whose abundance? How did they get abundance? I don't have the same access to abundance.
You talk about abundant life as salvation, but I'm hungry. There's all sorts of different components there. And then there's also the delegitimization.
There was a participant, surprise, surprise. I ended up doing research with a group of people, and I'm speaking to some of the results we learned. I had a participant who said, you know, our ice is cold, our water is wet. Why doesn't it show up in this data? Right?
And there's a delegitimization of what is happening and is happening well in communities of color because it doesn't show up in the data.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: So. Okay, thank you for letting me pause you and bring you over to that.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah, this is good.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: I don't know how often that's gonna happen in this conversation. Sorry, but I'm hoping I didn't completely ruin your train of thought and you can. Where you were headed when I, when I interrupted you with that.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: No, and I encourage all the questions because this is really, this is really important to me and I want others to know exactly why you and I care so much about it.
So what ended up happening was over the next year, I went to all the different denominational bodies, I went to all the different places, couldn't find the data.
But in addition to not hearing, I heard several things happen. One, some of the traditional places that you would go to were supportive, absolutely supportive, and said, absolutely, if you find this data, if you make this data happen, we will use it. And then sometimes I would ask them, well, would you help donate? And some people would not.
There were some giving consultants out there who told me, well, I don't understand, why don't you just do a quantitative study and I'll compare black people to asian people.
So there was a real lack of understanding as well about the fact that there's a, a multiplicity of variables and characteristics that take place with the research right around first and second generation, around ethnicity and race and gender, all of those things. Right.
Also, what we heard over and over, and this is the really painful part, was the ways in which data had been misused by white caucasian people, and it had been misused and used to recruit larger major gifts from people of color for white communities. And so what I heard over and over was that there was a lack of trust from leaders of communities of color to want to participate in regular data collection, which is why, in part, despite a lot of efforts done by some good organizations to get people involved, there was a breakdown as to how is that data going to be used, by whom and for whom. Is this really going to help me at all? Wow.
So just the work of trying to find the data brought up some really hard information.
Mika and I sat down one day and we said, this is probably going to cost us a lot. A lot. But we need to do this.
We developed a team and I spent the next year fundraising just to be able to do this, because, again, there were lots of people that were willing to use our data with a whole other thing. For them to be willing to do it, to do the research themselves.
What we found was that it took a little bit of work to do the fundraising. So the House of Bishops, the Episcopal Church, were the first in, and then followed the Presbyterian foundation and thriven. So by the end, we were able to gather most mainline denominations to support this research. And then we went ahead, and the next part was really difficult, recruiting people to be part of the study.
It required a lot of safeguards, it required a lot of commitments to how this information would be used and how this was going to better the communities involved.
So we went into some covenantal relationships.
Then the study was published during COVID time.
Amy Laramore was the writer for this. We had the researcher from the Millennial Impact study do the qualitative research.
And so now the collective foundation has this research available to you. What I can tell you is that what we learned over and over and over was life changing for me, which is that the way that granting institutions, the way that donors give to leaders of color is different than it is for people that are white. Now, Blackbaud did a small study as well that showed that for granting organizations, people that lead nonprofits that are people of color have two things that happen. One, they experience up to 25% less grants, funding grants, as well as they experience far more ties, far more obligations, strengths attached to their gifts.
We saw the same thing in our research as far as churches giving to outside institutions, as well as leaders of churches looking for grants or looking for larger donations from organizations or people that were white. This was a theme that was brought up over and over. One of the things I kept on hearing over and over was, what do I have to do with my body? What happens to my body when I have to go ask for a gift?
What do I have? The tears and the anger and the betrayal that I experienced in those rooms was profound, and it shaped my vocation. I no longer talk about giving just as a ministry itself. I talk about bodies constantly now because I think that that is where we need to expand our notion of what philanthropy is. Because this definition of philanthropic redlining, where we see these limits, do not take into account how bodies have been seen as objects for value for years and years and years.
And it's because of that that we begin to measure our ability to give to others based on impact or based on measurables, that one would look at a machine or an object.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Erin, I'm in my head. There's a lot going on, and there's a lot I want to say but I'm hesitant in part because I haven't begun my research yet. But you have described almost to a t the preliminary questions that my mentor and I will be asking as we delve into this research and these questions. And so, again, just, I'm so grateful for the work that you've already done. I'm picturing, like, not just the tilling of the ground, but that, to me, feels like the really hard part that you and your partners have already begun to do in this.
That feels like a good place.
I want to say kind of a side comment, and then I want to ask you to define for us philanthropic redlining. I'm going to name your chapter in this book, but really briefly, this chapter. That's going to be the conversation, kind of the remainder of the conversation that Erin and I are going to have today is her chapter in this book that she co edited, crisis and care that I mentioned.
I, this had one of the things that struck me, this had a chapter by Patrick Reyes, who I was introduced to. He's so fabulous, but I was introduced to him, his work.
I don't know Patrick personally, but I was introduced to his work in my first quarter of my M div at Fuller, which happened actually in the summer of 2020. So I usually say when nothing else was going on in the world, I started my M div. Program, which was true, June of 2020. And I read nobody cries when they die.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: And I just thought, this is. You're talking about bodies. And that book does have a lot of focus on his experience in post secondary education. And it really spoke to me because I am a mixed hispanic and white female. And I had, it was like I cried reading the book because so many of the experiences he describes at being in university and seminary were experiences that I had lived. And, you know, I was getting, of course, beginning my second master's at that point. My first one, I got, I usually say when I was young and didn't know this one was coming down the pike in my almost middle age. But those, you know, I'm sitting here thinking, okay, I'm getting my. Getting a master's degree. It's my second one. I did all this when I was young, and still I can feel the very real feelings pertaining to my body that Patrick talks about in that book of his. And so I just want to name that and say that this has a chapter by Patrick was written between 2016 and 2020 with lots of folks contributing who are asking questions like those that you're asking, who are talking about how can we think about these things differently?
What about these paradigms that we have can be shifted or really even struck down? I feel like I read in some of the chapters, how can they be rebuilt in ways that make sense theologically and also sociologically and culturally and things like that? How can they really speak to our realities instead of what we've kind of said are our realities? Taking back to this data that was not really actually representative. And so the whole volume is great. It's a short read if folks are interested in that, but the bodies part. I was just taken back to Patrick's work and naming some of those things of, like, what, how are we seen even as BIPOC folks in, you know, these educational spaces? And what, what he spoke to in that book was the impact on us as people. Right? Like myself as a person, my self image, these kinds of things are part of what Patrick spoke to. And I know that that's something you touched on it already, but that I think those of you who are in this world, in this research, and I soon will be, too, of what we're. What we'll see. See, with folks, these leaders, it impacts their bodies when they enter into these spaces. And the importance of that, that it's not just about impact in dollars. And this will be one of those where I take more notes than I came in with, but the quote that you said at the beginning, where money intersects with bodies, we see systems of inequity. And so I just wanted to name that as we go into talking a little bit more about your chapter. And it's called philanthropic redlining, working twice as hard for half as much, which is what you just described. So I'm wondering, though, for folks who, like I said, when I say research, philanthropic redlining, and people look at me and they're like, you just said something that I have no idea. And I'm like, yes, and me, too, until a few years ago, when it was introduced to me by some bipolar faith leaders who had, this was their everyday reality.
First, what is it? What is philanthropic redlining? What kind of definition can help us think about this as we move forward in this second part of the conversation?
[00:30:00] Speaker B: It's the way in which systems have been set up to restrict the ability to provide resources or to distribute resources or to allocate resources equitably, similar to the redlining that was experienced with land and real estate.
There is a language that says that the american dream is accessible to. All right, and yet we know with the GI Bill that took place, land was only accessible to some.
And if you were provided funding, there were only some places where you were allowed to go.
And if you were provided funding and you went to those places, you received a lot more strings attached.
So, similarly, with resources, with finances, in the philanthropic world, where giving is meant to be used, I believe, theologically, for repair of the world, to join God in that repair together, as we repair our relationships to one another.
This is a point of evil, frankly, where there's gatekeeping, where there is people who have a lot of power, and they are worried about ensuring that the right measurables, quote unquote right measurables, are used for allocation of resources.
And by being focused on this instead of on equitability, instead of focusing on the humanity of everyone, instead of thinking about what is the cost, they diminish the ability for resources to be used broadly.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: So I'm just going to interject.
I'm going to have a resource list in the show notes, as per the usher on the podcast. But one of those I'm going to put there is the color of law, which gives a really good history and background for the redlining that you just talked about that happened with real estate in the US. And I want to just say a small note, that when the author begins this book, something that struck me was that he begins the stories that he tells in, I think it's San Francisco, if I'm not mistaken, which for me, and I was talking with my dad, who was also reading it, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, this was the perfect place to begin geographically, because it again broke kind of all of these paradigms that I had of like, oh, this is something that happened in the south, or, oh, this is, you know, so I use that to say, for me, thinking about the systems that were legal. I mean, it's called the color of law, right. The systems that were legal were happening in places that we might not have suspected.
And at the same time, I think we can say this was kind of one of those places which let us know that this was pervasive, that this was happening everywhere. And so it's my suspicion that as we get into philanthropic redlining and we begin to learn more about this phenomenon, that it will be similar, that we will say what this is happening kind of in the San Francisco's of the. Of the faith world. You know, like, this is happening everywhere.
You know, this seems wild.
So anyway, just wanted to. Just wanted to throw that in as we, as we continue with this.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: No redlining as a practice of land is happening now. And it's Minnesota, where I live, is one of the most liberal places, as you know. It's certainly gotten a lot of attention lately. And I can tell you in a nearby suburb, they've just last year shifted some of the zoning laws that were allowing for redlining to take place just. Just outside of where I live. It's happening everywhere. And oftentimes there are systems that have been ingrained so long that people aren't even aware. So philanthropic redlining is happening as well.
I can tell you, for example, my experiences being a grants officer and what I was taught in my master's program was that you look for measurables, you look for particular ways of what success looks like, and you fund towards success, right? This is what you're taught.
But what happens if those markers of success are different than what the data is saying? Right? What if success does not take into account cost and whose bodies had to be sacrificed in order to reach that success? So there's so much more that we are not taking into account when we are teaching master level program like you and I, right? And we're training people out for the world. And I. And I think that this is why it's so pervasive is. For example, for example, I think I write this in the book, but I think it's a really clear one.
So, speaking of judicatory bodies, right? I was at a judicatory body where one parish was held up, an immigrant community, asian immigrant community, was called up as saying, hey, by utilizing some practices, they were able to increase their giving. What we're going to do is we're going to grant to them a step down model. This is what so many granting organizations do, right? They don't want people to become dependent.
Right? That word dependent. So they step down and they say, once you meet our measurables, then you can continue to be granted at a lower level. Lower level.
But what happens if those measurables don't contextually make sense?
So this judiciary body said, oh, look, this asian congregation was able to step down really well using our measurables, right?
And then they looked at a hispanic congregation that was full of undocumented workers and asked the exact same thing of them, saying, okay, here are the things that we need you to do. And we both, of course, needing documentation, right? We need you to do x, y, and z. And then once we begin to see growth in that area, we'll continue to fund you at a decreased amount, not taking into account the fact that undocumented individuals, of course, aren't going to want to fill out forms that are, of course, not going to want to be part of any type of registration.
Right? What looked like success here could not be used as success here. Additionally, for this asian community, this was folks that were primarily middle class individuals, right. Who knew annually what their incomes were going to be. These undocumented workers over here were folks that were more, they worked contractually right, week to week at best. Right. They were only able to give what they had at that moment. There was no way that they were going to be able to estimate. Right. How unfair, how deeply wrong to even ask them to give out of something that they didn't even know they had. A, that was probably my most stark example of seeing it in the church, of saying, oh, these two are exactly the same. Clearly, we can ask the same thing from this grants.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: So, yeah, that example of yours from this research that I read, it was so striking to me as well.
Live and work in Houston.
This is a, we, we are a community full of immigrants from all over the world.
We are, I think, the most international city in the country. I've heard that right now.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: And there are lots of folks who are documented and lots of folks who aren't. And, and as you know, as a hispanic woman, when I read that study or that example, that case study, I, even though that hasn't been my situation, I immediately could begin to empathize and see a. How the hispanic community, I could imagine the feelings and the response to that.
But then I could also see, oh, for someone, a governing body who's unfamiliar, we look at these and say, oh, they're like similarly sized immigrant communities, maybe first gen, maybe one and a half or second, you know, all this, maybe they're in a similar geographic region, you know, blah, blah, blah. But the, but the impact is, of the ask is so different in those communities. And especially, as, you know, the context of your book, the timing between 2016 and 2020.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: The fear, dangerous. The fear factor there we're sitting in September of 2024, where the debate was just on a couple of nights ago. And the question surrounding not just the rumors, but, you know, we have the same presidential candidate as was, as was president during the time who is, you know, pledging to deport immigrants, who is, you know, using very hateful language when it comes specifically to latino immigrants and this environment.
You know, I think about, you know, some of the previous, you know, social work I've done and things like this when, when people are living inside of fear. And I think really well founded fear in this situation.
Some of these other things, like how much money am I going to give to my church? These are not on the radar for this is not just how am I going to feed my family, but will I have a will I, will my home still be my home next week?
[00:41:46] Speaker B: That is so powerful. That is so powerful. And here's the thing.
What is the church's responsibility in that moment, right.
And what to take it one step further, then also what ends up happening to that congregation of scared.
I'm a, some are not all more scared individuals who were saying, I'm not filling something out. Right?
What happens to this congregation when they no longer receive the funding because they aren't upping their number of pledges when they aren't employing the traditional rights. You can't see me, podcast listeners, but I'm doing quotes here.
The traditional right way of doing fundraising, whether doing contextually based fundraising, which is different than what is recommended. So of course their numbers are down, right? What happens to that leader that's told, you're not following our instructions, so you're disobedient. So what does that mean for our trust in you? Right? Like there's all of these layers that take place.
So, of course, of course.
When people are asked, hey, can you take this study for us on giving characteristics of color, there was hesitancy, there's deep distrust, and there's a lot of pain that gets brought up because it's also like, why in the world do I want to, why do I even want to bring all of this pain and trauma up again, right? For what good will that do?
[00:43:34] Speaker A: So, that's right. And I'm also reminded sometimes I think this is what, some of the fun part of being mixed is. I get to kind of look at different sides of my family, you know, how have we operated and things like that. And I think about, I'm drawn back to that Hmong word of family.
This is the context, right? And I think, and this isn't what we're talking about, but just something that came to my mind is a, an imaginary body that might be in charge of the funding might look and say, oh, this hispanic congregation wasn't responsible with what we gave them. And it might, it might, in some worlds impact how future congregations that look like that one are funded.
And also I think I'm thinking about the folks in that space. Are they receiving a word about them that is, you know, I would say kind of categorically untrue. Are they receiving a word about themselves? That says I'm not generous, you know, are they receiving a word about themselves that says I'm not responsible? Are they receiving a word about themselves from this governing body that says something that's categorically untrue about their person? You know, I think, I don't. I don't know that I've ever witnessed any of my hispanic family asking for a tax receipt when they have given, you know, a gift in generosity. You know, I think about the time that I went to visit my grandfather and he would just randomly give me gas money. You know, my white grandma did the same thing, you know, but thankfully, I was able to drive around a little bit. But, you know, just thinking about the generosity, even in the neighborhoods and families and on our hispanic side of the family that, you know, folks just helped each other out. That's right. Whether it was in the context of the church or not, you know, and I know that there are other cultures and communities that do the same thing as well. I'm just speaking from my own context. But I just think, what if I were in that position and I had someone kind of implying at least that I had not been generous or responsible with the funding that I had had? I think that that would, I would have to wrestle with that at best. I think, and maybe at worst, it might really impact who I believed myself or my community to be. It might be formative, malformative, you know, in some of those ways. So anyway, just, you know, my imagination just kind of. Kind of going wild here on some of the impact of something like that.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: There's another also spoke to this wheel of impact, which is twofold. One, it was very difficult to find individuals of color who specifically identified themselves as fundraisers.
And what we heard was that there's a high burnout rate.
There's also so many barriers for a person who is of color, who is fundraising because they receive less funding, because they receive grants that have those ties, that oftentimes they are let go a lot quicker from their position.
One of the things that was really striking to me among the participants, and this was pointed out by Amy Larmore in particular, was that we brought in some of the best leaders who are raising money in the country.
And many of them said, I don't know why we're here. We're not fundraisers. We don't. We don't raise funds. And we took a minute because obviously language and words could be like, is this some. And we did some, some unpacking of that. Is this because you don't use the word fundraising or is this because, you know, do you consider yourself a stewardship leader?
They didn't consider themselves necessarily good at what they do. They didn't think that they were enough or that they had done enough. And there were a number of people who cried, who said this was a really powerful experience just to be able to claim that space as their own.
And so there's that component as well as then who is speaking for the community and the impact that all of this systemic injustice does to their body.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: Wow. Thank you so much for that, Erin.
I feel like we have barely, me, too.
[00:48:22] Speaker B: Should we do this again?
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Sometimes? We should. I think we should do it again sometime and record it, and I think we probably will do it a lot more and not record it because I am going to find myself probably desperate, maybe a strong word, but for folks who have, who have lived and breathed and moved in this space and for what you guys have already discovered, and I will be, gosh, not just standing on your shoulders, but probably asking you to dig around with me a little bit more as we keep going.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: I'm in your corner. I'm happy to support you. This is really important work.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: I'm grateful, Erin. I'm so grateful. And again, I just want to say the name of this book again, this again, it's a short read. You even say in the intro for folks who just, you can read a chapter by chapter, you can skip around these things, but every essay was well worth the pages and the time to look at it. I have so many notes, so many dog ears, so many stars. And it really, I think, is good for all of us lay people who don't have a clergy or a research role in this to say, how have I thought about this? Even just in our personal call to generosity as christians, how have I thought about this? How I've been discipled to think about this? And how might I, reading some of these stories impact how I think about this in the future? So, Erin, thank you again so much. Again, it's crisis in care meditations on faith and philanthropy, specifically today, talking about philanthropic redlining. Thank you so much for being with me.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Oh, it was a pleasure. Thank you.
[00:50:02] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production. Bye. Seth Busetti be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit
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