[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, I feel like we just went into like a weird time warp, time happening thing. Mikayla.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Yeah, we did. We sure did.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: It's also 8:30. I have had plenty of coffee, but I will confess to you, it feels very Monday to me. A, because it's been a very long week of like a lot of work and homework for me. But also B, okay, this is going to be TMI for you and probably everyone else listening. I'm way. I wake up this morning to like I have was in kind of not a great sleep anyway because I knew I had a lot to do this morning. And I was like, I need to get up early and whatever, which is normally not a problem for me. But my actual wake up was because I hear my dog kind of like starting to hack.
Like she's gonna be sick and there is like nothing that will get you out of bed faster. I feel like she like, I like bolt it up. My husband like flips on his light next to you, you know, and I'm like, she's gonna, she's gonna throw up. She's gonna. Anyway, and then it was just like this tiny little nothing. Thankfully it wasn't a huge deal. You know dogs, they're weird sometimes. Anyway, she went back to bed. I did not. So I've been up since like 4:45.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Okay.
And so anyway, so if I'm like a little loopy. Yeah, this is the situation.
So I got up and I was like, okay, well. And so then my husband got up, you know, when. When everyone's like, you know, having to get ready for school and everything. And I was like, well, I finished one of my assignments I wanted to get done.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: And he's like, well, you've been rolling. Oh my gosh, listen, we're about to get a dog. So whenever. For the first time. So when I hear stories like this, I feel terrified.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: When you're. When is this doggy coming? I'm so excited.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Not for a little while. Like, it's like we're like in the research, in the decision, like I've like basically prolonged this thing as Long as humanly possible. But also promise my kids that a.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Dog will be here letting you.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: I can't believe that, like, I'm just like, we gotta, like, there's a, like a deadline by, like the fall. That's the deadline.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: For me. Yeah. So. And I'm just squeezing every bit of, I guess, sleep out of it because I. That sounds like quite the way to be woken up.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: I mean, I, I really. This is an awful thing to say, and I would say I'll deny it, but now it's being recorded. I think I got up quicker with that noise than I did many times when my kids woke up. You know, like, that's like.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: They wear it you. So you're like, there's a deep part of your, like, body that's like, is this real? Is that they actually need me? Yeah. On a scale of 1 to 10. And I believe that if one of your children really needed you in the middle of the night, that you would have the same aggressive wake up, pop up situation.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, we have four, so it's not like, I mean, we're out of practice. You have a couple. It's like, you know that. That's exactly right. But this morning, that noise, like, that's the undeniable noise. Other doggy owners will know the noise. And it was just like, you know, we have to make it happen. So anyway, so 445.
So in some ways it's like, well, Michaela, this is like midday for me. And in other ways, I'm like, yeah, please pour me another cup of coffee.
Anyway, I also feel like that might be a little bit on brand for our discussion today.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: That feels right. Yeah, like, right, so those. Right.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: You haven't. You have a new book at this point. It's new. Ish.
It's called Life Influx. Navigational skills to guide and ground you in an ever changing world. And the last time we saw each other in person, a couple of months ago, I confessed to you that this book had been sitting on my mantle for, at that point, months. I don't know how long you've been sitting there. And I was like, michaela, I am so embarrassed because I have had your book for so long and I cannot open it.
Like, there was something about me that I was like, I can't open this because. And I shared with you at the time, it's been like a year and my life has been in flux and there was just something that felt, you know, I love to read books for the podcast. I Love to read books for school. I just love to read in general. But there was something about this one that I was like, do I want her to read my mail? Do I want, you know, this? It felt very intimate, and in that way, it felt very scary.
But I came home and I gave it a little bit, and then I threw it in my pool bag one day. I was like, we'll just.
We'll just see. No pressure. Sunday afternoon, I put this full disclosure with another one in the bag just in case. I opened it and was like, I can't do it 100%.
But I loved it.
I loved it.
And so we'll. We'll get into why a little bit. But I loved it, I think, in part because there was nothing trite about this.
It was not like a, oh, your life is in flux. Let me give you 10 easy steps to make it not be that way. It's like, no, this is, like, gritty and real. And I appreciated that about it so much. So thank you for that.
Yeah. Anyway, thank you for your words.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks for saying all that.
Yeah, I. It's not an unfamiliar experience that people are having with the book. This is.
This is not the one that's, like, the cheery, easy thing.
It's certainly meant to be more of a companion for a little. A little bit cathartic. And when I said set out to write it.
So two things important to name, just as context. One, I had done a whole bunch of dissertation work, and where I had gotten a PhD, and for whatever reason, the things that had come up in my dissertation, it was all at the intersection of entrepreneurship and vocational formation.
I went then with a team of people at the Dupree center for Leadership, which is where I work now, which is at Fuller Seminary, which we both are Fuller people.
Um, and we tried to see how this cohort would work for people or how this material could be formed into a cohort for people that could help them be more entrepreneurial. And what happened time and time again is that people were coming to the cohort when they were in some kind of transition moment and when their life was in flux. And they basically, in 30 different ways, were like, we don't. Like, it's fine if you want to teach us entrepreneurship, but what we really need is, like, help dealing with this stuff. And so that just kind of put me on a path of really noticing what happens. The deeper work we do, theological work.
And along that time period, I met somebody who has become a very important friend in my life. And her name is Lisa Slayton. And she.
When I was first starting to think about this book, I was like, hey, I'm kind of thinking about this and this, I'm talking about this person and this person. And she said, gosh, like, I have been doing that work with leaders for 25, 30 years. I want to write that book with you. And I'm like, well, but I already have the. It's already all figured out. And like, it's our. It's already done. And she's like, I want to write that with you. And so I was like, well, let's figure out how to bring you onto this. And so I think that the, the like realness that you feel in there is, is actually born of like being with real people in a variety of contexts. And so I'm glad to hear you say that. But yeah, it's not the, it's not like light, quick, like self improvement piece. It's like the frameworks for. Oh yeah, this kind of is a thing. And this is, this is going to be a companion as I do do the work.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Okay. So I love the, the real people story parts of it because, oh my goodness, this is like, this is always like, there's so much stuff that works in a textbook, you know, or that works like in theory. And then it's like, no, people have to actually like live this way in real life. And so how are they navigating this stuff in, in real life? I was always the kid in math class that was like, I think I understand, but give me an example. You know, like, I need to see the examples on the board so that I can kind of figure out I can see the pattern a little bit better. Not that there's a pattern, all of this, but, you know, I can see the pattern a little bit better. And so I think where I'd love for you to, to start is like the story that's threaded throughout the book, which is Roger in the boat. I mean. And I will start by confessing this.
When I'm picturing this scene, I am very freaked out. Like, I am not a coastal person. Like, I love being on the coasts and visiting the coast, but I grew up in the most landlocked place in the U.S. like Oklahoma. You know, like, you can hardly get more non coastal than Oklahoma, but I did grow up by a lake. And so this is my only context for we, you know, people fish and boat and ski and tube and you know, things like that. But there's, but most of those places you can kind of see the shore on the other side from where you might enter on the dock. Like, there isn't this, like, for me, it felt like a terrifying possibility of being just like, I don't know, lost at sea, old school novel kind of situation.
So I'm wondering. There was so much about Roger's story that I wanted to resonate with me. Meaning I was like, I want to be able to approach things like that, you know, with, with the same you know, kind of just thoughtfulness and, and, and calm, you know, calmness that he had. So I'm jumping ahead, but can you just basically give us the gist of Roger's boat story and how that related to, to what you and Lisa were talking about when you're, when you're companioning with people through this book while their lives are influx?
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah, Roger's story is really powerful.
Certainly anxiety producing in its own way. Yeah, for sure. So Roger, Roger is in this story. So Roger is what the fun fact. Roger is Lisa's husband. So today as a podcast recording, he's in his 70s, but this is a story about when he was 17 years old. So Roger as a 17 year old boy was the kind of kid who like, like on the east coast, like, I'm with you. I grew up in Nebraska, so it was like, not like, like very landlocked, but where Roger grew up, he was not landlocked and he was spent summers going to the coast and he loved it so much that before, like, did you have a, like, okay, interlude. Did you have like a nice first car or did you have.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: No, totally crappy.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah, right, okay, same. I had a totally crappy first car. Roger had a totally crappy first boat. That was like the, that was the boat he, that was like how he saved up. And then he didn't even get a car first. He got a boat first.
And he had a couple of buddies and he was out. They were off the coast of Maine and it was like a Saturday and it was just like gorgeous, like sunny skies and they like were kind of going in and out with the boat and like just doing all the things that you do, I guess, with a boat when you're 17 and with your beds and when it's sunny. And they had gotten like fairly far from home. I mean, Roger, Roger knew the way home. Like it was not a big deal, but they got pretty far from home when a very sudden and dense blanket of fog rolled in. And Roger describes not being able to see his hand in front of his face.
And sometimes when I tell this story, like in a Public space. Especially when I'm, like, telling it with, like, young people. I'm like, okay, cool. Like, so what tool does, like, Roger whip out? And they're like, GPS. I'm like, right, this is the 70s. And they're like, whoa.
And then I say, like, what else? And they're like, well, like. Like a phone. I'm like, also the 70s. Like, no, there's no. And then someone's like, a compass. I'm like, yes. We have collective memory. We still remember, like, physical compasses Roger had. It was such a sunny day. Like, Roger had just, like, left his compass at home that day.
And so he literally did not have the tools to make his way home.
And they had been out, like, a good many hours. And so there was only so much gas in the car.
So now I'm like, the mom in the story, because I'm like, mom age. And this is terrifying.
This is a group of young men literally stuck out in the fog now unable.
It's not like you can say, oh, yeah, shore was that way. Your boat is moving, and you do not know, like, which way to go. You're 360, enveloped in fog.
I asked Roger. We asked Roger, like, what.
What was the instinct in that moment? Like, what did you want to do? And he said something that I think is really true for most of us when we feel in fog, which was to put the bow in high gear and hightail out of there. Like, let's get out of the fog. Let's get out of the unknown. Let's get back to the land that we can see. Let's put our feet on the ground. Let's take a deep breath. Let's get to what we can, what we know.
And the thing is, first of all, that doesn't really. Doesn't really work in real life, actually. That's. That's the metaphor. But it certainly isn't going to work when you don't know which direction is sure. You, like, literally don't know.
So then it's like, well, what'd you do instead, Roger? And he did something that was really counterintuitive. That is basically the whole point of the book, which is to follow this, like, pattern.
Stop, cut the engine, like, turn off the motor, listen for signals, and move incrementally forward. And I'm going to describe what the listen for signals is in a minute. But stop, cut the engine, listen for signals, and move incrementally forward. And when I was first asking Lisa about the story, I was like, what does it mean to listen for signals I don't totally understand. Again, Nebraska, landlocked.
And that was when Lisa taught me that in coastal areas there is an entirely alternate set of navigational tools that are sound based, saying that we actually like, we expect the fog to roll in. And so what that means is based on location, based on location. Each of these foghorns and bell buoys have different sounds. So Roger was quite literally listening for the sound of home.
And if he could hear the sound of home and if his buds could agree with him on what direction it was coming from, they could make their way back to the home harbor. Well, at first he couldn't hear his sound. They were too far away to hear the sounds of his home harbor. So at first he was just listening. They were listening for any sounds at all, any sounds at all. And then, so they would stop, cut the engine, listen together, agree on what direction it was coming from, and then move incrementally forward and then stop.
They didn't hightail it toward that sound. They could have hit things. They could have been going in a wrong direction. The only way they could move forward was a little bit at a time together.
And that. So two things. One, I ask people to question sometimes, like, let's take that metaphor.
Let's take it into the idea of being able to orient ourselves in these moments of flux. Like, what are our deepest sense of God's home for us? What are the sounds metaphorically that we know that we can flip onto and hear? Is it peace and justice? Is it goodness and kindness? Is it the sound of our mother's love? I mean, it could be like anything. And to be able to get in touch with the very deep orienting things that God has put inside of us when we are in these moments of flux is actually the work in order to be able to move incrementally forward toward the next best step, home safety, whether we're going back or forward. You know, we could play with that a bunch, but that's the work and it's, it is counterintuitive. And then the book is laid out basically in a way to kind of help build the muscles and the rhythm that I just described.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah, so so much stood out when you retold that story, but part of it was just this idea. And I think, again, so I'm speaking for someone who, like, I even had a co worker and friend point out to me a couple of months ago, he was like, your life has been in flux for like a year. I'm like, yes, thank you. You know, like I appreciate that. You know, thanks. Thanks for the, the heads up for the reminder. But it's like, no, it's like this is something that I'm. That I'm living. But when, when you said you just want to, you just want to hightail it out of there, you just want to put, put the boat in high gear and hightail it out of there. And the image of that boat and in the fog was so helpful for me because the first thing that came up, like, if we'd been a coaching session, I would say hightail it out of where, you know, like, it's just all encompassing. And so you think you're going to hightail it, quote out, which is like the instinct that we, most of us have, probably many of us have. But then you look around and you're like, what is even there? You know, like, I can't. If I can't. The fog is so thick that I can't see the hand in front of my face.
What are the odds that I'm going to randomly pick a direction and go that way and I'm going to be going out of the fog as opposed to deeper into it? It's like, I don't think the chances are great that, that I would randomly pick kind of quote the right direction to get me out of there rather than, you know, kind of, I don't know, more deeply in it.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: I think what you said is really important, actually, because the only way to get through fog is to press deeper into it.
And there is this moment, I mean, Lisa and I call it embracing the unfigureoutable. Basically, when you said that right there, I was like, oh, you're like on the precipice of, of some really important learning. You're probably in the middle of some really important learning. You're probably, probably are on the back edge of some really important learning. Because that moment where you're like, I don't actually even. I'm so deep in it, I don't know. Where I'm at is really powerful.
The questions then I would say is, okay, well then, like, who are you? Who are you in this moment?
And you know, we're. I'm a, I'm a Christian person. Like, the frameworks of faith orient everything I do.
So I would say, who is God in this moment?
And right there, I mean, those are big questions. Those are not like, quick, simple answers. But all of a sudden you have, like, sounds. You start, you're starting to build the scaffolding for the framework of what you're Moving toward. I was talking with somebod just this week, and they were, they're like on the verge of a promotion and it feels like foggy to them. It's like they're like, I. I just like. And I don't know that I would describe it as the deep kind of fog that you're talking about, but it's a, it's a fog. And they were like, like, should I. Do I do this? Do I. How do I know? And the thing that I, I heard them start to work through is I don't know exactly where I'm at. I'm in this space that like a lot of people would call liminal space. It's kind of what you're talking about, but in that I kind of know myself to be a person that's this and not this.
And so they're actually on the verge of turning down this promotion based on the work of stopping, cutting the engine and listening for signals. And in that hearing, I didn't know if that's actually the route of success that everybody's told me is the route is actually the route that this is who I am and who God's made me to be. And I don't even mean that in some hyper individualistic, like, here's the special things that God has given you, but just, is that the path that God has set out for us? I think that that really fights a lot of the striving that is enculturated in a lot of us. And so the context of a lot of my work is helping people in their work and how that those questions then go into their marriage and then into their families, into their communities, and just so on and so forth. But so I would say like in the deep fog, first of all, saying, like, I don't know where I am. That's. That is like a really powerful, powerful recognition. And then the next questions I would say is like, do you know who you are in this moment? And do you know who God is in this moment? And if that feels like blank to us, which it could, that's where I'm like, the scriptures actually tell us a lot about God in this. That, you know, God, the thing he says over and over, the thing that God says over and over to the people of Israel is remember.
And so there is this powerful work of looking back, to be able to orient the future, the present, to be able to go toward the future. So without going too much further into that, we have, we have tools you named, coaching you named, you know, you've named other things that can help us start to define who we are and who God is, even when it feels hard to get at where we are.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think the other thing that really stood out to me again, it felt. It felt like I was hearing it for the first time in some ways, just with the, the clarity with which you spoke and me reflecting on even how my life has changed, you know, since I finished the book. But this incremental stopping and listening, I would, I would reflect back that I think there is an instinct that I don't necessarily think is. Is completely bad, but I think there is an instinct when we have a transitional place where many of say, and I'm speaking from personal experience, like, okay, I think it's good to step back and say, where do I want to be in five years? Or where do I want to be in 10 years? And now I have the opportunity because I'm in this transition space to say, okay, well, what's my five year plan? Or what do I want? Maybe not a plan, but what do I want my life to look like in five years or 10 years? And I don't think that that's necessarily a horrible instinct, but I think this stopping and incremental, like stopping listening, but with incremental movement, as you mentioned, is counterintuitive. And even just thinking about the metaphor, like, very explicitly of like Roger and his friends being far enough away that they couldn't even really hear the sounds of their own home right then, but they were listening for something that would bring them closer.
And that feels really powerful for me. And it feels not like a consolation. That to me feels like real progress to be able even to say that in a transition period of, I actually may not know what I, what I want this to look like in 10 years, but if I can stop and listen, maybe I can make movement that will get me closer, closer to a place that I might be able to recognize like, once I get there. But that, I mean, that. But that feels scary too.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah. A couple things I think that you're just hitting on that feel really important to acknowledge.
There's some pretty good data done by a guy named Bruce Filer. He writes a book, Life in the Transitions. And his data, or his survey of a lot of data, suggests that as adults in the U.S. we undergo pretty significant life transitions every 12 to 18 months.
Every 12 to 18 months, not. And then like, there's these big giant, like, tectonic shiftings that happen three to five times throughout an adult lifehood. But every. Every 12 to 18 months is, as Lisa and I would say, you're basically at all moments coming into. In the middle of or coming out of a. Of a sizable transition.
So the one aspect is just. And that has a lot to do with a lot of factors that are at play in our world that are different than they were 100 years ago.
So part of it is just knowing that we are going to live our entire lives in some level of transition.
So the.
I wonder if, like. Sure, in some ways, because there's always some dynamic changing.
It feels like a mirage. Right. To sort of mix the metaphors here. It's kind of, what does arrival look like when change is constant? That's a. That's a really interesting question.
So just to name that as. As normal and.
And that reality.
And then. Yeah, I'm kind of with you on yes, people. I've been asked. I get asked a lot, actually. This is a question I've been asked a lot recently.
So I don't know what's happening for me, but, like, what's your. Where you want to be in five years, where you want to be in 10 years? And I.
I find it difficult. I agree with you that it is worth spending some time on. Some spending and being able to say, here's a basic direction. Here's some things I've done. I've been working toward. Here's like, you know, I know I want to be, like, active, and at that point, I'll have kids in high school, and I kind of can picture what I want to be doing with them, and I can picture kind of how I want my work life to look, but I don't know what I'm doing in 10 years. That's not all clear to me. It's just. And I. I would be someone oriented toward the future, someone who thinks about the future quite a bit.
So I think it's helpful to do that. But I think the vividness of that picture and our ability to hold it in an open hand is correlated to our capacity to move incrementally forward because we move incrementally toward this. Kind of see how that feels. We try it. Did it sound right to use that metaphor?
Didn't really. We're going to. Not. We're going to kind of when that starts to reshape our sense and of belonging, our sense of home, to use those deep words. And unlike Roger, who is making his way to a very physical landscape, we're. I think. I think God is at work in the world in a way. That makes the story of God more dynamic. Some of those core things feel steady and stable, but they're not. They're not a physical place that can't move. And so if God is on the move, if we believe that is true, then God is inviting us to be on the move. And so that our capacity to be able to see God out in the future, imagine for ourselves what we are going to be up to in a variety of lanes, including profession, I do think is correlated to our willingness to just step one at a time and let that vision unfold.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: You know, when you were talking about the stat about transitions and how quickly they happen, I'm saying quickly. That feels like a lot of transitions.
I don't know if this was your experience, but you have kids who are no longer babies.
But when my kids were babies and toddlers, especially my girls, we have twins first, you know, and. And. And it was just like jumping into the deep end of parenting and infant see and toddlerhood and. And for about. Probably until they went to school, I.
There was something about our life where I continually was telling my husband, I feel like as soon as I figure out how to parent them in this stage, it changes. Like, there's something, whether it's small or a bigger change, there's something about it that changes, you know, because there's so much development that's happening in those first, like, three, four years. And so I'm like, you know, like, okay, you know, maybe the first thing is, like, they drop a nap. You know, one of the first things I'm like, I grieved when my kids dropped their morning nap. I was like, this is the worst thing that could ever happen to me. But it was like, I don't know. Now I don't know how to do this because I just got used to. And I felt like they just kind of got used to, like, oh, this is the routine, whatever. And then there's all sorts of other things, like, you know, moving from a crib to a toddler bed or potty training or, you know, milk to solid foods. And there's, you know, like, all these things. I'm like, I. We just got this, like, we totally just got this down, and everyone is, like, in a groove. And then you start teething or then, you know, you're. Whatever. And I'm like. Or walking or, you know, all of the things that happen at that stage. And it's just a. It's a lot.
A lot of transition and. Which means a lot of change. Like, how do you. You Know, manage. Managing all of these, all of these changes. And, and you said something now I can't think of the exact words, but it's. But, you know, like, what, what is the resolve? You know, like, what does that, you know, look like? You know, not talking about kids anymore, but like, when things are kind of always in transition. Like, you know what, Seeing the result feels real. Feels real tricky.
So anyway, that was just a thought I had on that. I'm wondering if we can transition to something that felt pretty meaningful to me when I was reading the book. And you and Lisa talk about adaptive challenges. We're talking about change and transition. Adaptive challenges as opposed to technical challenges.
Can you kind of define what you guys mean by those terms and then what the, what the differences are and how we kind of, how we, we live those out?
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think maybe your, your framework of parenting is actually a helpful one here.
By the way, somebody had said to me when I first became. I have two kids right now, they're nine and six. And when they were babies, someone's like, it changes every two weeks, for better or worse.
And I was like, actually, thank you just for telling me that person, because that.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Better for worse. That's a good caveat, though.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, even the good stuff like that. She was like, even the good stuff, like, you know, you get the, you get the nap solid. And then like, it changes. And that was, it's like, can be like low key, like traumatic actually, to just be like enduring that much change and dissonance.
Yeah. So we distinguish. We use a couple overarching frameworks for change. We use words like change. We use words like transition, transformation, set a landscape.
One paradigm we use is terminal. And these paradigms come from other, other people, other scholars. We stand on their shoulders for sure here. But one paradigm is, it's called Vuca V U C A that says the world is volatile, it's uncertain, it's complex and ambiguous. And there's all this, like, kind of helping us understand the world there. Then there's this other framework and these all kind of live in the same world of just understanding change. Change management.
And I. And change management is an interesting word because you used the word manage earlier. And I'm like, dude, are we supposed to manage that? Or like, is what. What really.
My. The question that really interests me is like, who are we in the midst of that? Because the managing there is. And we'll get into this when I describe technical change, but there is this compulsion to manage change as a reaction to our anxiety that's happening because of it. And so I just like, what is that? Anyway? So adaptive and technical change. This is framework out of Harvard Business School, Ronald Heifetz, Marty Linsky and some others over time that are basically distinguishing between two types of challenges.
Technical challenges, even if they're super difficult, they have known solutions, right? So your kids, let's use your example, your kid is teething or, you know, breastfeeding is so difficult for so many. I mean, it's so.
But it's a very technically difficult thing, right? It's like there are like, things that people, you can, it doesn't, I don't mean it always works out, but just it's a technical difficulty.
And you think about balancing a complex budget, making budget cuts, you think about, you know, needing to in some ways even like, you know, what's going on with climate change. There's a variety of things that are adaptive challenges, but some of them are quite technical. We need to do less of this and more of this, right? That we kind of know those things.
So technical challenges, however complex or simple they feel they have known solutions that can be solved either by an outside expert or by training.
Adaptive challenges, on the other hand, are ones for which there really aren't known solutions.
And even more importantly, they require whoever is engaged in the such challenge or the change to actually confront deeply held value systems and be able to experiment with new ways of being.
So the parenting one, like getting the naps and doing the things and all of that, that's quite technical. But the move from being that, you know, you're describing, from being somebody who doesn't have kids to having kids, that's actually an adaptive challenge because although people have done it before, it requires me to imagine a new way of being for my whole life.
It requires me to wrestle with deeply held assumptions that have oriented my time, my spending, my decision making what I value and how those values are played out.
So in the world right now, we are up against as a, as a people, as a human race, and as a, as a multinational reality. And then certainly on a national and institutional level, we're up against more adaptive challenges that are volatile and uncertain, complex and ambiguous than really is normal. It's just not. It's just not normal. So then when you talk about going to, through transitions every 12 to 18 months and you layer on that, many of them require us to wrestle with our deeply held assumptions and evaluate and step into new ways of being.
You better believe when we say we're in the fog, it's like, but I don't even know where I'm at.
Like, that makes total sense.
I didn't even mean to do that.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: You're great. I love it.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: No, that was something that I was like, this. I think my personality, if I just. It leans more into, like, we just got to figure this out, you know? Like, there's got to be a way to figure it out. So, I mean, more like the technical challenge part, you know, like. Yeah.
So that differentiation felt really meaningful to me. And even you're just. Now, that kind of using that parenting analogy is helpful because you're right. This is night and day. Like, we're. You know, I'm a different person now as a parent than I was before I was a parent. And. And all of these things are very, very different. And it's like, I don't.
These are all. These are all new paradigms for me that I didn't have before. So I don't have tools to operate inside of them because they're. Because they're all brand new to me.
Again, so much of what I liked about the grittiness of this. Of this book was the.
Just the emphasis that so many as we've been talking, but, like, so many of the. These postures and practices, things that. That we're trying to keep in mind are counterintuitive. And so it's like, I think you used earlier, like, building the muscles. Like, we've got to practice these. You know, practice these things. And it's. I'm going to this. Like, I've been trying to make it a regular thing to go to this weightlifting class once a week, and I do these other. Couple of other classes that I really love, and this one I hate. Like, I just. I.
I hate going.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Why do you go then?
[00:39:09] Speaker A: I mean, maybe hates a slightly strong word, but I don't love it. I go, well, partially because I go because I like the way I feel afterwards.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: And I think I am actually getting stronger. So, like, I can tell in the other two classes that I actually like going to when there are things that incorporate strength. I'm like, oh, I can do things I couldn't do before. So, you know, so, like, okay, I've been doing those other two classes for, like, two years with, like, not a ton of change in the strength, but, you know, whatever. But then I add this class in, you know, a few months ago, and it's like, oh, oh, okay. When I'm doing weights in this other class, I can. I can lift more, you know, or whatever the Strength training. This other one, I can do more.
It's fine. But I don't. I. But I don't like it. So the, but the building the muscle part of it is what I'm saying. Like, I don't, I don't like it. I like when I've done it. I think the problem with this is it's like, yes, there's. I mean, there's progress for sure, but for so many of these things, we're just like continually building muscle. We're continually practicing these things, and with as many transitions that we are going through, that's a lot. So I guess part of what I'm saying is I want to learn to love it.
I want to learn to love this muscle building stuff in the transition of change, in process of change and transition.
So. Yeah, but they're counterintuitive and they feel hard to practice.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think your analogy is really good there. I think it's right.
It's really. It's a workout and it's hard. I'll tell you what I love, though.
I. One of mine, we. We like Lisa and I spell out, like, some fruit that feels like, oh, yeah, you're actually kind of doing this. And the hardest one for me has been moving from reactivity to response.
I just, it's just, it just like, yeah, I just, I'm like, they reacted again and I didn't, like, ask where I was and what was, like, going on. And here's what I love.
I love the moment where I'm like, oh, wait a minute, I did not react to that.
Like, it's so liberating. It is so liberating. And then to watch the ripple effect of my not reacting to something on whoever I've reacted to, and then the ripple effect that is unhelpful there. And I love that. So, like, that's the corollary to like, yeah, I love being like. You're like, I love. I think I like being strong. I think I like being able, like, building some strength. And I think I like that it's like, yeah, I like feeling more healthy.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: And that feels.
And if. If change is as rampant as it is, and it is here to stay, I have to be a person who knows how to move through change.
And as somebody who thinks about leaders a lot, in my role at the Max Dupree center for Leadership, the exponential interval effect that leaders have on people is massive. Whether that's formal leadership, informal, et cetera, et cetera. So helping leaders do their own inner work so that they show up in helpful and productive ways so that people are set up to do their. To do their best work to flourish in their systems.
That I love.
And so it starts like, I can't talk to somebody else about reactivity. I'm, like, being reactive.
So I just think. I. I think your metaphor is a good one. Going to the gym can suck, but being strong is awesome.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: But that's like, you know, why do you do it? Well, I. Some days I'm not sure, you know, because. Because the fruit, I think. Okay. I feel like this conversation is really fun for me because I love analogies. And then. And then maybe we'll switch gears after this.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: So many analogies.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: So many analogies. Right? But as you're. Even as you were talking about the fruit, the fruit that you and Lisa kind of put out, the fruit. And this was. You know, this is one of them. There's so many things. So a thank you for your vulnerability that you're not batting 100 on responsiveness versus reactiveness. Like, that felt real encouraging to me. I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So there are moments where, like, oh, yeah, Like, I did that. You know, like, that feels really good. But the fruit, I'm thinking of, you know, in season, but also just, like, you know, like, there's. There's, like, a strawberry, and this one's ready. And you can see that the one next to it is, like, still green. And so that feels promising, too, that we'll see fruit continue to pop up, you know, like, as the more we do the work, the more we see these little.
This fruit, you know, pop up in different times, which is great.
I have a whole list.
We probably will not get to all of them, but I have a list that on my notes, I just wrote my dog years.
I didn't even write all my dog ears. So that's. So that's one thing. But I chose some, and I'm wondering if we could go through some of those, and I'll just, like, let you riff on some of the things that really stood out to me and really felt meaningful to me.
Yeah. So a couple of them we've already covered, so we can skip those. But one of them is this wake up moment, becoming aware of what we'd rather not see.
That's 42 is what my notes say. Page 42. But that felt real stupid to me, and I hated it. But becoming aware of what we'd rather not see. How is that helpful?
What does that look like?
Why do we need. Why do we need to do that? I'M like, there's some places where I'm like, can I just walk around, like, pretend like this is real life?
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah, this one's really hard.
I. I like the thing about. So I. I, like, joked with my husband, I was like, I'm gonna write my next book about, like, just being happy and, like, being super chill and going on vacation all the time. Because it feels like you end up, like, living your book, but certainly, like, speaking out of your own life and experience. But also then I. I feel like it's like the Lord's personal spiritual formation that's like, you will grow into this kind of person more and more and not. Not so the waking up to things that you. That it is such a powerful moment to start to wake up to more than what we've been noticing, and it's absolutely terrifying.
Like, speaking super personally, I think, like, I've developed this, which I think really, it was always there in some way, but it has come into crystallization through this framework and through this language, through these skills that when something happens, whether it's at work or home or with a friend or, you know, something, or even in the, like, kind of national scope or news, and I start to feel myself, like, it kind of goes back to that reactivity. I start to feel myself tense up, and I start to feel, like, the uneasiness in my body.
I've just learned to be like, what is that?
Like, what's. What is it? And I can never answer it right away, but the what is it feels like such a gentle way to acknowledge that I'm wake. I. There's things that I. That my. That I want to be aware of that I'm not quite aware of. And then I'll just keep coming back to it until eventually it kind of gets unraveled a little bit. At this point, I don't know if that was always the case when I first started doing this for practice, but, like, okay, maybe I was a little triggered in that moment by this person. Or, gosh, I have some past, like, trauma I have to work through or, wow, every time I see this person's name in my inbox, I just kind of, like, spiral a little. What is that about?
And all of those curiosity questions which certainly kind of lead into our embrace. The unfigured, they honor the waking up that is. That's kind of coming up. And when that happens, we start to see things. And when you start to see things, you can't unsee them. And so the moment when we start to wake up, when we feel that restlessness in our body. It's usually in our body.
It is terrifying, but it is so powerful.
And yes, it leads, for me personally, it's like, led to a lot more honestly work that I need to do, but the kind of work that feels like that gym work, which leads to moments of me not causing me breaking cycles, me not causing more harm, me being like, oh, this is just a lot of change. Me being able to differentiate emotionally from a situation that's happening, realize it's not about me, which then those are all tools we need for like, our constant world of change. So I think the waking up often starts like in the body.
And it's hard, but it, it does point to the things that are. That we'd rather not see. And this is where it's great to have it. Depending on what you're waking up to, you gotta have friends, you gotta have mentors.
And it's very possible that you need a therapist or a coach, spiritual director, whatever, whatever combination of that feels appropriate based on what's coming, what you're waking up to.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that was so good.
Next one that I had, because we already talked about cutting the engine, but I wrote that down again.
But the next one is you have a section on the chapter on letting go of kind of just a list of things that we, that we need to let go of in order to be able to continue to do this work.
And one of the ones that grabbed me was this, that we need to let go of the beliefs that limit us. But the first sentence is what I have starred here. And it reads, we all have thoughts that have settled in as deeply held beliefs. And I just felt like that sentence was doing a lot of work in, in this section, in part because I, you know, it made me think of a whole bunch of different things. But, you know, part of it is like some of these things. Yes. That I have that are now I would classify as deeply held beliefs. Did they start off that way? Was it, you know, like, where did they come from? Was it just an idea at first? Is it something that I inherited from my family of origin? Is this impact of friends? Like, you know, is this something I read? Is this just a hunch? You know, but like, kind of what made these convictions be so, you know, strong in my life? And then, you know, I don't know, to use kind of therapy language, like, are they serving me? You know, but like, how are they impacting, you know, how I go about everyday life? And in this, I'm thinking there, there are Some of us. This isn't the point of your book, but I think people will relate, you know, because we are talking about faith as well. You know, there's a lot of folks, especially my age, ish, that are deconstructing parts of their faith. And it's like, where, you know what.
One thing when I was having questions, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself, like, having deconstructed, but when I was going through some faith, you know, evolution, I remember talking with my therapist and she just said, you know, asking a question like, what stays and what goes? You know, and. And that being just something that felt even like, whoa, I can do that. You know, like, even in my faith life, I can kind of ask the question, you know, like, what stays and what goes? But even if we expand, you know, further out, even the recognition that that's a question to be asked or that can be asked is kind of a difficult hurdle for some of us to even get to. Much less than addressing those things that we deem, you know, let goable to make up a word. But, you know, that we say, yeah, these are things that we can drop or change or adapt.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah.
I mean, first, I think it's just since we're talking about it, I am a practical theologian by training, but I'm not the boss of theology.
And this is important. This is important to say. Right.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: I wish more theologians would say they're not the boss of theology.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: Can that be the title of your next book?
[00:52:27] Speaker B: That should be the title.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: Boss of Theology subtitle. And neither are you.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: And neither are you. Yeah, It's a very small audience. I'm sure that would sell really well.
I think God can handle our deconstruction. You know, like God. I don't think God's afraid of our questions. I think God revels in our questions, revels in our curiosity, rebels in our courage, loves us. And so just that, you know, very holy process of working through some deeply held beliefs, whether they're about our faith frameworks or they're about ourselves, or they're about the way things should be or what people need from us, I think just we can handle that now. It's. It doesn't mean it's pretty aggressive work. And depending on what's happened in our life, I think it's important to set up the right boundaries for that work. And I'll go back to the adaptive change frameworks here.
So we all have thoughts that have settled in as deeply held beliefs. And if some of the change that is happening Is adaptive change.
One of the descriptors of adaptive change I gave is that we have to sometimes wrestle with deeply held the beliefs and imagine new ways of being.
So that's just very real.
[00:53:59] Speaker A: And.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: The same authors who talk about that, talk about an environment in which that's most likely to happen. And they would describe it as a psychologically, it's an environment that's psychologically safe enough that we can confront those things.
And so part of me says like, okay, where are the spaces that are psychologically safe enough to do the waking up, to do the letting go, to do this encountering with beliefs that have been somewhat limiting?
Maybe it is a faith community that is open to kind of these questions. Maybe it is a therapy room, maybe it's the group chat like you've got with your friends. I mean there's a variety of places I think that come together.
But one of the things that I would say is in a world of non stop change in which deeply held beliefs are going to be challenged over and over, sometimes reconfirmed and other times needing to move in different directions, we need to be able to name the spaces that are safe enough for us to do that work of confronting those beliefs. And I just think that, I think it speak like big picture for a moment.
I mean the, the data shows that people are feeling more and more isolated.
And I worry about having spaces to do what we just talked about.
Worries maybe too strong of a word. But I, I think we need to just put our finger on that and.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: Be.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: Attentive about creating those kind of spaces, facilitating them, prioritizing them in our lives. Because I think that's, that's where the work happens. That's where we get to say where did this belief come from? And to use your language, does this, does it serve us or not? Which is different than does it serve, is an additional question beyond just does it serve me or not?
And so just being able to name those spaces in which you do this work I think is really important.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.
I have one more of my dog ears. I have several more on the list, but I'm going to just limit it to one more and then I'll ask you to close this out after that, maybe with a word that you, you know, maybe have found helpful to groups as you, as you talk to folks about this kind of thing.
This goes back to your embracing the unfigureoutable.
This was super irritating to me because, you know, I don't want, I don't want things to be unfiguredable.
I think that sucks.
But this again, one, one sentence that for me did a lot of work is in this section and it felt especially powerful to me because it's obviously related to the unfiguredable, but it's different in some ways too. And that is that some disorientation just isn't solvable.
And that feels really hard.
Especially. Yeah, there's those two words together like that disorientation isn't solvable. And I would say like, so for, for us as, as people who have studied theology formally, we probably like, you know, Brueggemann, you know, you're like, well, there's, there's orientation and there's disorientation and there's reorientation. It feels like this really, you know, great pattern. And it feels like this thing where it makes the disorientation piece feel less scary because we're anticipating a reorientation into something scripturally in our lives, you know, in our faith, whatever.
But, but what you said is true, that some disorientation isn't solvable.
And so then it's like, okay, well then now what?
[00:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I mean, it's just like, I just want to acknowledge and honor what you've said because it's really true and it feels very real.
I'm gonna make a blanket statement that I don't know if it's true, but I'm just gonna like, give that caveat.
I think some of the folks who have the hardest time with change are like really smart people who are high achieving and have gotten really far by being able to solve a lot of problems really effectively.
And that is great. I mean, those are great skills. I'm not that. There's no. I'm. That I am that person. Right? There's no diminishing of those skills.
But the question is like, what. What do we do when we get to problems that we can't solve and what do we do?
What are we gonna do? Can we wake up to the potential feelings that causes.
Can we let go? I mean, even to a belief that's limiting is that I need to solve all the problems and that I'm valued, I am valued because I'm a problem solver, right? I mean, really sort of going in on this problem solving language.
But not all disorientation is, is solvable and they're just.
I, I do, I think I like Brugamont's framework and I believe in like the arc that scriptures teach us about redemption and restoration and reorientation. Like, I believe in that big arc.
And I also just think that we play very small parts of that giant arc. And so it feels audacious for me to think that I'll have a win, that basically everything in my window would be. Would be. Would be solvable, would follow that arc in every way, shape, and form. And so.
And it kind of takes it reloc. If I by. By looking for solvability all the time, it relocates God's work to my work. And actually, that I think that's.
That is not that that is very tempting to do.
And so by saying not all disorientation is solvable or saying something's gonna get figured out, and it's not, like, up to us to figure it all out.
And so, again, who are we when we. The fog is, you know, set up in. The fog is settled in. Who are we going to be and who do we believe God to be? And those are two huge questions that start to actually release us from the pressure of having to hightail things in gear and get out of there and solve for our own disorientation.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: Okay, Mikayla, last question.
What would you leave us with? I'm imagining that the listeners to this.
Of this conversation are. We're all just in one big room together, and you have folks who have come to you from a whole bunch of different spaces. Folks who look like you, folks who look like me who are saying, oh, my goodness, everything about my life is in flux. Some folks who are like, I came to hear, like, a thing on work leadership, and I realized, you know, like you described earlier, like, this is.
I need to hear this.
If you were wrapping up that conversation in that room, what kind of encouragement would you leave us with?
[01:02:24] Speaker B: It's a great question, I think, no matter where you're at, if you're like, I really feel. I know it doesn't really feel in flux, like, it's fine, or, gosh, like, I really wanted some, like, leadership principles from her. P.S. these are leadership principles.
Or like, oh, that sounds great if you have a lot of agency.
All those things.
What I would say. Let's go back to our first story.
One of the most practical things that you can do is get clear about who's on your boat with you.
Roger did not move forward without his trusted friends being in agreement about the direction that he was sensing.
He couldn't go without them. Couldn't go without their approval. And I.
Who do you trust enough? Who's got. Who's in your corner? Whose boat are you on?
So in a Just a very practical sense.
I would say none of this work happens alone.
And who is on your boat. And if that feels unclear to you, get after that question.
[01:03:35] Speaker A: Michaela, this is so good.
I just want to say out loud on record that every time that we have spent together, I have enjoyed it has felt every time, every conversation feels super meaningful. There are things I will say when we first recorded we were chatting about this, it was probably 21 or 22 we first recorded that you reminded me it was the first time we met.
There are things in that conversation that I would wager probably felt like no big deal to you. Like you're just, you know, talking and they have been so formative to me. Like I think about them regularly.
Just regularly. They've been really. Just really formative. So anyway, I'm just grateful for your presence and for your words and for your work and your just. Just that you're willing to.
To companion with people like me. Whether it's through the book or through the pre center in person or in. In conversations like this.
Your experience and your wisdom and your. Yeah. Your guidance, your help and just your presence are. Are really meaningful. And so yeah, I just want to say I appreciate you so much.
[01:04:49] Speaker B: Likewise. And I like really appreciate you too. So thanks for having me on today and grateful for your work as well.
[01:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll say the name of the book one more time and of course that'll be linked in our show Notes. It is Life in navigational skills to guide and ground you in an ever changing world by Michaela o' Donnell and Lisa Pratt Slayton.
Anyway, thanks again so much Makayla. I appreciate you.
[01:05:15] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:05:17] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes Music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit
[email protected] Sam.
