Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Bassetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. All right.
Speaker 2 00:00:42 I may as well, Blaine, I may as well start by telling on myself that I'm already a little weepy, <laugh>, as we even, I love it. Record button. Um, but I love it. My guest is gracious today as, as someone would be who's graduated from this Seattle school. Uh, my tears are welcome. So thank you, Blaine.
Speaker 3 00:01:01 Your tears are so welcome here.
Speaker 2 00:01:04 <laugh>. Thank you. So if you haven't guessed, um, Blaine Hogan is joining me today. He's written a memoir, guys, and it is, I mean, it's, I don't even know the words to describe this, Blaine, it's courageous, it's intense, it's beautiful. Um, it's called Exit the Cave, Embracing a life of Courage, creativity, and Radical Imagination. And it releases in November, and I'm holding a copy. And you haven't gotten yours yet,
Speaker 3 00:01:35 <laugh>. No. Yeah, you held it up. Uh, and I was like, Oh, my, this keeps happening to me. I keep having interviews where people are holding my book, and I have never held it before. Um, it is a strange thing to be an author where they send advanced copies to everybody, it seems, except the author. So it is a weird thing. So I'm great. I'm so glad. I, I would literally asking you, like, what does it feel like to hold it in your hands? Like, uh, is it heavy
Speaker 2 00:02:03 Cover? Smooth. It's great. Okay. It's smooth.
Speaker 3 00:02:06 Okay. Amazing.
Speaker 2 00:02:08 It's great. Well, they want you to probably be like super surprised when like, the real deal comes in, right? I mean, I've got like, Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:02:14 I guess
Speaker 2 00:02:15 So. Notes and, you know, stuff that says like, Don't you dare copy this. And, you know, everything is page zero. And, you know, this is like, you know, not quite rough draft, Right? But this is, Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:02:24 Yeah, yeah. No, no,
Speaker 2 00:02:25 No. This is not for the creative director to hold just yet.
Speaker 3 00:02:29 I guess not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've had lots of notes along the way. I'm sure that they are waiting until, like, I can make no more changes.
Speaker 2 00:02:36 Right. They're like, blame it.
Speaker 3 00:02:37 It's what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:02:38 That's right. It's done. It's done. Don't try to do anything else. Um, but it, but it was amazing. I mean, I've, I've had it for a minute. Yes. But I, but I read it over the weekend. Wow. And, um, yeah. And so I just wanna like, tell the listeners it's like 250 pages, like over the weekend, but it moves fast. The chapters are short. The the way that this was put together was just incredible. And, um, and Wow, you whisk us through your story, Blaine.
Speaker 3 00:03:12 Yeah, I, um, I, well, my, my wife is the most phenomenal editor. She's a real writer in our home. Um, and so, so much credit of the pace of the book goes to her. It is interesting. I want to, um, you, you introduce the book by calling it a memoir, um, which I have been really reluctant to do because, um, you know, I didn't start out to write a memoir. I, I started out, uh, thinking I was gonna write a book about the creative process. And, um, it's gonna be kind of filled with the tips and tricks of the things that I've learned, um, you know, as being an actor and a creative director and a director. But when I sat down, I really, um, started writing, um, the, the thing that kept emerging was just my story. And, um, I found also as I was writing initially, um, that I thought I had to write it in a certain way, um, which is just a great life lesson.
Speaker 3 00:04:08 Um, I thought that I needed to write it in the way that some of my colleagues and friends were writing books, and a lot of them were teachers. And so I felt like I needed to teach. Um, but the adage I think is really true that you show Don't tell, which is a little bit of, you know, semantics here. But I had to show my story, and I had to, um, just lay that on the page rather than try and teach my way through kind of a three point sort of situation. But at any rate, my story kept coming out, and the story, uh, was how I survived a life that nearly destroyed me. And, um, I began to sort of make these connections that, yes, I was trying to write a book about the creative process, and then my story was the thing that started to emerge.
Speaker 3 00:04:55 But, um, what I started to realize as I continued to write was that so much of my creativity pointed me back to the ways in which I survived. And so, you know, taking a ton of recovery work and community and therapy. Um, but the real thing that I had to offer, kind of the real creative act, um, the most amazing, imaginative, creative, courageous thing that I learned to do, uh, was to do something that they tell you that you cannot do, which is to change your past. And I know that's sort of hyperbolic to say, and by that, what I really mean is that of course, you can't change your past. You can't change the things that happened to you. Um, but through what I call, um, let me say that again because I'm trying to even remember my subtitle is <laugh>, Um, uh, but
Speaker 2 00:05:48 Embracing a life of courage, creativity, and Radical Imagination.
Speaker 3 00:05:53 But through, uh, those concepts of courage, creativity, and radical imagination, um, I learned how I could, uh, remember my past to remember my past, to put it back together in a new configuration, to change the meaning of the events that happened so that I could live in a new way in the present. It's a bit convoluted, but it's through my story. So hopefully, um, that that isn't too confusing.
Speaker 2 00:06:26 No, I mean, the thing, So, so first, I think that the way that this book ended up coming out, um, when you're, when you're saying it's not like this is what, it's not, it's not tricks and tips on the creative process. It's not a three point, You know, you got an intro, you got a conclusion, you got a few middle chapters that tell you what to do. That's right. Um, it's not any of those things, which I think is actually a gift to the reader, because we, I will speak for myself. I feel like I, I feel like I ended up, because a, like, I don't consider myself a creative Right. Kind of in the way that we speak it now, a creative or whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so a book with those tips wouldn't have appealed to me. But I learned about creativity from your showing it to me, right from the, from the pace of the book, from the humor inside of the book, from the way that I felt whiplash in all of the good ways in, in, you know, this.
Speaker 2 00:07:21 And I thought, Oh, you can tell a story like this. But in the midst of your story, what I felt as a reader is that the parts that resonated with me, I could go deeper with those places. Right? And if it didn't fit your original formula of abc, then it didn't matter. In this book, I didn't feel like there was a formula of abc. I just felt like it was an honest thing where you told your story, and then I could take those parts that resonated with me. How might God be speaking to me through this, and then, and then go deeper in my own way, Or it could take me in a trajectory that I wasn't anticipating from, from reading a book like this.
Speaker 3 00:08:05 Yeah. Carl Sagan, um, has this great quote, I always misquote it. Um, so I've gotten, uh, I've, I've looked it up multiple times to make sure I'm getting it right, but it, he says that the most personal is the most universal. And I think that is, um, every story that we've ever seen, every movie that we've ever read, every, or excuse me, every movie that we've ever seen, every book or novel that we've ever read, um, you know, of course we aren't Harry Potter, we aren't Lou Skywalker. Um, we aren't these hero characters. Um, but as their stories are told, and as they're told as truthfully as possible, we do find ourselves in those stories. And that is my hope that as I tell my story, um, that the reader is finding themselves in it as well. That they, uh, see that they're not, not alone, um, in the places that they're stuck. That there is hope, uh, for the future, um, that you can actually change the meaning of what happened in the past, um, and, uh, that you can exit the cave.
Speaker 2 00:09:10 Yeah. I, I wanna, I wanna take it this year for a second, and I, I feel like kind of in the spirit of your, um, the vulnerability that you showed in this book, I'm gonna be a little bit vulnerable too, because this reimagining the past. I, I wanna, I wanna hang out there for just a second because it sounds weird, as you've already mentioned. Like, this sounds like kind of hyperbolically, you're like, what in the world? But, um, I've done some work, Lord willing, I will continue to do some work, some therapeutic work in my life around, around my own story. And I just wanna share an example of this is, okay, and you can tell me how this resonates with you. You're a, a graduate of a seminary who kind of does things in the same vein, I think. And so maybe you can elaborate in a way that I'm not able to.
Speaker 2 00:10:00 But this is just from the experience of, of, of a person who's been in therapy for, for years. So I was with my therapist one time, and, and I will say all of this, like was in the context of a trained professional therapist in her office in this setting, You know, disclaimer, all of the things right here, don't try this at home or whatever. But, um, you know, we were, we were there and I was, I was expressing to her that I was having this memory that was really, um, causing me a lot of anxiety. And, um, and it felt like a traumatic, uh, memory for me. And so she asked me to go back, right? Like, to go back and remember, and I, you know, described to her the place and all of these things. And then we did this exercise where she asked me to imagine where Jesus was inside of this memory.
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Like, if I could picture him, you know, if he were there incarnate, um, where would he be in the room, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, what would his response be to what I was experiencing? Um, and we sat there and she sat there with me, and she held that space, but while it didn't, as you say, you can't change the past, but when I thought about that memory after that, and it, and it's kind of gotten to where I don't think about it. I hardly think about it anymore. This was years ago, but it was something that had haunted me. Right. But as I started to think about it after that exercise, I wasn't thinking about the pain or the felt trauma. I was thinking about Jesus and that he was with me, and where he was in that, and how he could hold me even still all of those decades later.
Speaker 2 00:11:53 And, um, and in that past, it wasn't changed, but it was redeemed in a way. Yeah. And reimagined for me and Reembered, um, for me. Um, but the, you know, I was so grateful to have someone who was able to, in her kind of therapeutic creativity lead me. And, and, and let me borrow some of her courage in that moment to go there and have someone with me and community like you talk about also in the book, and, you know, all of those things. Um, so those are maybe the, the kinds of things akin to some of the things that you're talking about when you're talking about changing your past.
Speaker 3 00:12:36 Yeah. I, um, it's so good. Thank you for sharing that with me. I do want to ask if you'd be willing to share, where was he in the room with
Speaker 2 00:12:43 You, right? Yeah. Um, he was, I, I could picture, I could picture him now, right? He was near a window in this room, but he was looking at me and he was basically just reassuring me, verbally reassuring me that everything was okay, you know, that he saw me and that everything was okay. And to imagine that he was there was so beautiful. But we prayed too, right? Holy Spirit reveal, because we know that Jesus was there. Sure. Right. So where was he?
Speaker 3 00:13:17 Thank you for sharing that. Um, I think there are a lot of ways to unpack this. Um, I think, uh, uh, something I learned, um, when I was in Seattle, these are kind of concepts that, uh, my mentor Dan Allender, um, who's kind of my guide in the book. Um, we think of past as pretty linear, past, present, future. Um, but the way we actually experience past is, um, where was that kind of like a game where the guy like, you know, moves the three cups around. And we, we think of it as past, present, future, very linear, but we actually experience it more like past, future, present. And by that I mean that whatever happened to us in the past, we template, we project onto the future. And then however, we're imagining whatever is gonna happen in the future is how we live in the present.
Speaker 3 00:14:13 How we prepare ourselves to make sure that that thing never happens again. For example, if we're talking about, uh, some kind of trauma or, um, another way is we're going to reenact that trauma so that we feel more comfortable in our, um, in our present. And, um, I remember I tell a story, uh, in the book, um, Dan says, Well, you can't, you can't change your present cuz you're in the present. And we think that we can, um, create the future, but we can't manufacture the, the future in, in all the ways that we want to think that we can. And so that leaves the past. And then he says this phrase, which is so hyperbolic, and, um, so this guy, Dan Allen, um, is the easiest thing to change is your past. And it's crazy to think of that. Um, and it's complicated and it's hard, and it can, um, bring up, I think, a lot of anger, um, because I don't know your specific story that you're telling me, um, but I bet you wished that Jesus would've just intervened and not stood by the window.
Speaker 2 00:15:17 Right?
Speaker 3 00:15:18 And I think that that's always a really challenging thing to experience, and especially those of us, um, who've experienced any sort of evangelical, um, uh, theology or culture, is that God is always good, um, but God is kind of more good or better if he intervenes. And then when he doesn't, what do you do with that? Um, I don't have the answer. I don't know. That is a conundrum, um, that I can't easily solve. So I don't have an answer to that. Um, but what I will say, and this is true, and it's, I think why I wrote the book the way that I did, is to keep going back into those places of harm, those places of hurt, those places of trauma, um, and ask, um, yes, where, where, where God was. Um, but what is the story that came out of that that you've now projected onto your future?
Speaker 3 00:16:12 And how is imagining whatever future that is affecting how you live in the present? And so for your story, what I can only imagine is that as you went back into that story of harm, of pain of trauma, and you, um, reimagined the narrative of that, that yes, it was horrible, and yes, it was awful, Um, but that there was some sort of calm peace and presence there. Um, just the act of that exercise gives you a new imagination of what could happen in the future. And when you can begin to imagine a different future for yourself, it literally changes all of the possibilities, uh, of the present. Um, and that for me is my recovery story. Um, uh, and it sounds like, you know, in many ways, uh, how you are healing from those moments as well. And, um, again, I think exactly what you said, this isn't, this is really to be done by trained professionals. I am not a therapist. Um, uh, but, um, the work is, is worth it if you're willing to, um, to, to do it.
Speaker 2 00:17:24 Yeah. The work, the work is worth it. But I do wanna say it's work, right? Um, it's work and, and, you know, going to the, going to the, you know, what's, what's the greatest of these commandments, right? To love the Lord your God, to love your neighbor as you love yourself. And that, that loving yourself aspect of the commandment came out a lot to me when I was reading the book, because, um, I think there, there's still kind of probably some schools of thoughts rolling around that's kind of like, it's the past. Why don't we get over it? Or, you know, what, this seems like kind of really selfish, that you might spend so much time digging into this and blah, blah, blah. It's just about you. You'd be living your life, da da da. Yeah. Um, but this way in which God has designed us, that it's not a selfish thing to dig into those and to begin to love yourself better, um, because it really does make us more aware.
Speaker 2 00:18:27 I think it makes us aware of God's, um, gifts of his generosity, of his, like just the, the amazement of his design of us as people and how, um, you know, our, our minds work with our, with our bodies and our spirits, and all these things that I can't even name cause I don't understand. Um, and then how we are able to love better. Um, so there's a couple of things, a couple places in the book that I'm thinking right now, but I'm specifically one of, one of the spots that just kind of, that kind of stopped me in my tracks. So in this point in the book, you have made it to the Seattle School that we've, we've mentioned a few times, and since you are a trained actor, this has come out and you have been in these groups. And, and so I know, not, not every seminary experience is, is the same for sure. Mine is probably, was probably not as, as much in the psychology as yours, but definitely like lots of tears and groups in my seminary experience. Like lots of them, lots of them right in the spiritual formation realm and all of this stuff, Right. You know, my husband, like, especially during the pandemic, he's looking at, he's like, Is everything okay? I'm like, Yes, I'm in, I'm in group right now. You know, it's like, he's like, ok, just, just check in. Um, but
Speaker 3 00:19:40 I'm just healing my past.
Speaker 2 00:19:42 Okay. Can you leave me alone while I heal my past with my group? Yeah. Yeah. But, um, sorry, professor's praying for us right now, but you're in this, you're in this setting, in this group, and I mean, this is the way you put it. I'm, I'm, I'm not saying anything you didn't say. You got called out in your group because you've been telling this story and, and you're, you're a great storyteller, Blain. You've been telling the story and you've been telling the story, the story of your life, and someone says to you, You're not though. You're not really telling us your story. You're not really doing this. You're performing it.
Speaker 3 00:20:16 Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I had a sort of perfect three x structure from my story. Um, and it was that act one, my dad was an alcoholic, um, and, uh, an addict of all sorts. Uh, my mom Act two was a severe diabetic. Um, and it meant, uh, she had seizures all the time, my brother and I, to force feed her orange juice. And then, um, uh, Act three was kind of the pen ultimate, sort of like dynamite, um, ending of the story. I was sexually abused by two older boys in my neighborhood. And, um, I don't say it in the, in, in a way to demean or, or, um, undercut the gravity of those stories. But as you say, um, I had come to Seattle. I had, I had spent, um, my whole life thinking I was gonna be a, a professional actor. I had effectively, uh, achieved that goal, but my life internally was coming apart, um, because of the trauma that I had experienced from my past that I had not yet reconciled or made peace with.
Speaker 3 00:21:26 Um, I'd taken two years off from acting and, uh, found myself in what I realized almost after the fact was a seminary. I went to this school in Seattle because a man by the name of Dan Aller wrote a book called The Wounded Heart, which is essentially the bible for adult victims of childhood sexual abuse. Um, and I knew that that was a part of kind of how the wheels were coming off, is that I needed to wrestle with that part of my story. And we were in what was called practicum groups, where you basically spend the time with your colleagues, um, telling your story. And over and over and over again, I just had sort of told that three act structure until someone called me out and basically was like, You're performing your, your story. Um, and, and it was true. I had been unwilling to sort of drop my guard and really dig into the particularities of what did it mean, um, to have an alcoholic addicted father?
Speaker 3 00:22:25 What did it mean? What was the shame that, that he passed on to me that I needed to deal with? And I needed to, um, understand what was mine and what did he give me? What was it like, um, to be, uh, in relationship to a mom who, uh, suffered from such health struggles? And really what did it mean, um, to have experienced abuse? Um, and I thought I knew <laugh>, I didn't. Um, and, uh, you say it's work, and it, it really, it really was work to go back into those stories. And, and that's a lot of what the book is, is going back into those stories with my dad, with my mom, um, and with what happened to me in the neighborhood. Um, but all in service of, um, making peace. And, uh, you said something earlier. Yes, it is work. Um, but, uh, I lost my train of thought there, Alexis.
Speaker 2 00:23:26 That's all right. We'll cut it. No big deal. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:23:28 <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:30 No big deal. Sorry. It was probably the Mastiff. She, I don't know if you can
Speaker 3 00:23:33 <laugh>. Yeah, you can.
Speaker 2 00:23:35 She was a little bit large. Um, Blaine, thank you for going. Thank you for sharing that part. I mean, I think it is, you know, know it. What spoke to me about that, I think is that we can gain such, even those of us who aren't actors, right, who aren't in seminary, who aren't performers, who aren't even in practicum groups, it's like, we can gain such a familiarity with our own stories. You know, it's like, Hi, I'm Alexis from Oklahoma. Like, you know, just kind of rolls off the tongue, right? Or even if it's, even if it's not something you've shared, it's just something that we we're so accustomed to. It's just everyday closed for us. Um, but so, so many times, a lot of the healing work ends up taking place when we're, when we are willing. And I think this is one of the main reasons you've talked about your writing this book to help, um, you know, encourage people, like literally giving us courage that it's okay to dig into some of those places even when they seem familiar, you know, that we're gonna find things there about ourselves, We'll find things there about the Lord that we didn't know.
Speaker 2 00:24:39 Um, and we'll find things there about our relationships too, that can help us move forward in more healthy and whole ways. Um, one place that really, really also struck me in the book that I just thought was so beautiful, I'll probably have this picture forever, but I want you to elaborate cause I want, I wanna hear you talk about it a little bit more, is this idea of love being kind of like a net. So you share the story of getting to, to, to meet with the Trape artists and, and getting to do that. And so, because my mind just kind of naturally thinks in metaphors, this I like really kind of took to this. So, so kind of explain what what was meant by, by that analogy of love being like a net.
Speaker 3 00:25:28 Yeah. So I, um, had been given a, since I was a kid, so I grew up in the eighties. Um, for those of you who are eighties babies out there, there was a show that was called Circus of the Stars, um, that's kind of like, with stars,
Speaker 2 00:25:42 You said this, and I was like, I've never, You don't remember? No, I think we're same age. I'm like, I've never heard of this.
Speaker 3 00:25:49 Okay, well look it up. The ironic part is that, um, uh, Alfonso Rivera, who was, uh, in the Carleton in the Fresh Prince, is he in the show? He was on, he was on that show, and now he is actually one of the co-hosts with Tyra Banks on Dancing With the Stars. So it is a full circle for Alfonso and me. Now, I will say one other thing. This is totally adjacent. My oldest daughter is the biggest America's funniest videos fan. I hope he, uh, he used to host it. I, he might still, anyway, for her birthday a few years ago, I got her a cameo of him saying Happy Birthday, shut it to her, which she absolutely loved. No. So, I'm an eighties baby. I'm,
Speaker 2 00:26:34 No, I have to say the American Minnesota videos right now, I have to, because this is, let's go there. This is like, we're, we're, this is a big rift in our, our House. A big argument because my kids are all over Alfonso. They think he's totally the greatest. And they despise, like, especially after Bob Sagt passed away, they were doing these flashbacks, right? To the Bob Sagt. They were like, Mom, he's not even funny. I'm like, blasting, like, just like, what in the world are you? Like, mom, the show when you were a kid was not even funny. Like, what was that? So you
Speaker 3 00:27:04 Got, so you've got a, a Bob Sagt house and then a and, and then a Alfonso house,
Speaker 2 00:27:11 But the only Bob Saggot house member is me,
Speaker 3 00:27:14 <laugh>. I see. Yeah. You are very much Anu. Well, what does your husband think? Well,
Speaker 2 00:27:18 Whose name is then, You can't really say it on the air. He never liked Am America's Funniest film videos. Okay, well that as unfortu or as a grownup.
Speaker 3 00:27:25 I'm so
Speaker 2 00:27:25 Sad. I know, right? That's right. So I just had to say that. Cause Alfonso, is he, is it in our house? He's
Speaker 3 00:27:31 It. Well, and I will say this, um, I will pray for your marriage because there are things that there are certain disagreements that you just cannot, that you just can't get over. Yeah. And that's one of them. I mean, it's crazy, um, that you don't have an America's Funniest video fan. I don't, He's a travesty.
Speaker 2 00:27:48 Not even Bob or Alfonso.
Speaker 3 00:27:50 I can't believe it.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 I know. Okay, sorry. So
Speaker 3 00:27:53 We don't have, I have a therapist. No, no, no, not at all. I do have a therapist for him, specifically. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:27:59 And a specialist.
Speaker 3 00:28:01 That's right. Yep. <laugh>. Um, I used to watch this show, uh, Circus of the Stars. Oh, that's where you're going. Not only wanted to be an actor, I wanted to be on that show. One of the reasons why I wanted to be an actor was that I could then be on that show. I wanted to perform in the circus as a star <laugh>. And so, um, the trapeze is the one that I'm like, I just, I know I'm a trapeze artist at heart. Um, flash forward many years later, uh, one of my good friends, Bjorn, who I talk about in the book, um, got me a gift card to go to, uh, get a trapeze lesson, um, when I was in Chicago. And so, uh, I, we go, um, and, uh, it's way higher than you think. Uh, it is, um, you're, you know, all fastened up and harnessed up and whatever.
Speaker 3 00:28:53 But it was still, it was still high. And now I am also afraid of heights. Um, but I do love challenging myself and putting myself in scary positions. Um, re I wrote a book containing all my deepest, darkest secrets, and I'm doing a podcast right tour to try and hawk my book filled with my deepest, darkest secrets. So anyway, I go up to the top and I look down, and in order to sort of like, delay the inevitable of me needing to like fly out into nowhere, I start kind of making small talk in jokes with the, um, lady who's my instructor. And we start talking about like, you know, I'd done research. I knew that James or Jules Leotard was the inventor of the leotard, Um, and did she know that? And, um, you know, what does the release really cover? Um, and we start talking about just the net, um, that I'm about to fall into.
Speaker 3 00:29:47 And I, I start asking her questions like, Well, um, you know, did performers ever fly without a net? And she says, Oh, no, only, only an idiot would fly without a net. I'm like, Well, what do you mean? Um, she said, Well, if you've ever seen anyone fly without a net, um, they're doing the most basic tricks. They're doing the most boring things. They're doing the most rote, um, because they wanna make sure that they don't fall. Because if they fall, there's nothing there. Um, but it's when the net is there that you have the most creativity. So when the net is there, um, that people really can try things that they've never tried before because they know they are going to be caught. And then I'm like, Well, do you ever have to replace the net? We were speaking of the net. She says, Oh, no, we, we don't ever replace it.
Speaker 3 00:30:34 Well, I'm like, Well, what if it gets old and there's holes and whatever? She says, Oh, it gets holes all the time, but we don't replace it. We just mend it where it's broken, and actually the places that we end up mending become the strongest. So I pulled out of that a whole heap of stuff. And while I was in school preparing to get engaged and get married, you know, I had really thought that, um, a secure attachment to another human being, um, felt like trapped being trapped. It felt like, um, it was something that I could never get out of a healthy relationship because I didn't experience a lot of it, um, growing up. Um, certainly pockets here or there. Um, but, you know, as a whole, that was not something that was like regularly part of my life. Um, and so then as a, as an adult or as a young adult, um, I found myself distancing myself from anything that felt like, um, secure attachment, commitment.
Speaker 3 00:31:38 Um, and this metaphor sort of unlocked a whole, uh, host of things. And it was that the net, uh, and the way I describe it in the book is the net is love and love, um, as you mentioned before, um, is the thing that allows you the freedom to try to fail, to jump, um, knowing that again and again and again, you will be caught. And so kind of back to, you know, the story that you, uh, had me tell originally where I was just performing my story, I had been going through the most, um, basic things. It was the most boring thing. In fact, I tell a story of, um, a friend of mine's, um, sibling had just gotten, uh, a divorce. And I said, Well, what did, what did you say when they told you he, And he, the way he responded to his sub sibling was, It's so boring, it's so predictable.
Speaker 3 00:32:37 Of course. Um, and, uh, he was an art, the, the siblings and artist as well. And I just think, gosh, that's the most painful thing to be told as a, as an artist, as a creative, or just as a human, you're boring. Um, but as I was able to see that the net wasn't there to restrain me, the net was actually there to set me free. Um, I began to try, I began to commit. I began to trust. Um, and, you know, full circle, I, I've got a, a wife and three daughters. And the three daughters especially, they just love me. And I don't know why I don't, I don't get it. Um, you know, very soon our oldest will probably read this book, um, and we'll share with her, you know, some of our stories. We want our children to age appropriately, know where they have come from. Um, but all that to say, uh, I, I did never make it on circus at the stars. And that's, that's a horrible sad thing that I just, it's no longer even a show. Um, and so that's something I have to come to terms with and make peace with. Um, but the sentiment remains that the net of love is there to, um, not to restrain us, but it is there to set us free.
Speaker 2 00:34:00 Yeah, I mean, that is just, that is just the most beautiful, um, picture that is, that is just the most beautiful picture. And in our house, we joke from the crudes. I don't know, you have kids that are probably Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:34:13 Where you foresee.
Speaker 2 00:34:14 And so
Speaker 3 00:34:15 Big fans of crudes. Oh, your husband likes the crudes? Of
Speaker 2 00:34:17 Course, Yes. Totally.
Speaker 3 00:34:19 Crudes. Totally. Okay. Then, then I have a different therapist for
Speaker 2 00:34:22 Him. <laugh>, this is the first crude where the grandma, I think mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she says, The lion. That's, we, we often communicate like, almost completely in movie quotes at our house.
Speaker 3 00:34:34 Sure. A hundred
Speaker 2 00:34:35 Percent. One of them is me from the crudes grandma, and she says, Hugs are traps.
Speaker 3 00:34:41 Like Mm.
Speaker 2 00:34:43 Yep. Like, you're trying to, but please don't because hugs are traps.
Speaker 3 00:34:47 It's Right. Yeah. Yep. You're, Yes.
Speaker 2 00:34:51 Similar, Similar. Yeah, totally. Don't love me, don't hug me. That's a trap.
Speaker 3 00:34:56 Uh, it is, it is a trap, but it's in, it's a trap in the very best way that a trap can be a trap.
Speaker 2 00:35:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it, it is. I feel that
Speaker 3 00:35:06 Deeply.
Speaker 2 00:35:07 I mean, I, I know that the book isn't, um, and this is part of the beauty of it, is that it's not this like linear sequential, you know, kind of rendering of your life's story and the way that, you know, a documentary might be told or something like that. But we do gather, the reader does gather that all of these things that you're talking about weren't, this wasn't like a, like a year long process for you where it's like, Oh, I realized I had this trauma, and oh, I realized this family of origin had some issues. And so I just went to therapy, and then I went to seminary, and then I became a pastor, and everything was great.
Speaker 3 00:35:45 Totally. I even hesitate even as I was saying. And now I have a d a wife and three daughters. Um, because it, saying it in that way, um, assumes that it's all worked out and it's all fantastic. Um, and in fact, it's still very hard. Um, most mornings I wake up and still feel some weight of anxiety, um, some weight of, of a, of, of a fog. Um, now it isn't what I experienced 15 years ago. Um, but I'm still in recovery, and it is still a process, and it is still, um, one day at its time. Um, and so I think we go through, um, our life and, um, get to moments where things become, we've recognized patterns that are, um, hurting us or, or others, um, or we begin to, uh, recognize a certain amount of shame in an area in, in, in our life that just kind of keeps coming up.
Speaker 3 00:36:50 Um, or, you know, we're feeling some sort of sadness or pain. Um, and I, I think one, maybe encouragement is you, you said something earlier where some people just say, Well just be done with the past. And I think that the past is trying to tell us something. Our bodies are trying to tell us something. Our patterns are trying to tell us something. Our shame is trying to remind us of something. Um, and, uh, it is that somewhere inside of you, some part of you needs some kind of care. And so, um, I do think that, uh, it can be looked at in sort of incremental pieces, um, rather than feeling like, Oh, I need to go to some big place. I have some sort of big dramatic change. Um, because, uh, yes, I did take a pause, um, from what was my career as an actor for two years, and do this very intense deep dive into all of this.
Speaker 3 00:37:53 For me, it was sort of life or death. I had come to that place where I needed to go to, uh, you know, uh, a recovery situation, or I was going to lose my life. Um, most of us, um, are finding places that are not as dramatic, finding ourselves in places that aren't as dramatic, and yet they are worth taking the, um, the time to figure out what is the care that I need? What is my, uh, story trying to tell me? Um, what is that pattern that I keep repeating? Um, that if I can just unlock a little piece at a time that life will be different, uh, in the future and, um, will be different in just an incremental amount today.
Speaker 2 00:38:38 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:38:39 Which is sometimes how it feels.
Speaker 2 00:38:40 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that because that's, that's huge. I mean, I remember having a conversation several years ago with, um, one of my friends who was sharing, we were sharing a bit of our stories together and we'd had some similarities, and I was kind of like, ah, I just wish, you know, I'm like, I have, I have enough Pentecostal background in me to be like, I just want one of those moments, Right? I just want one of these moments where I'm free,
Speaker 3 00:39:02 Slay me in the spirit, slay,
Speaker 2 00:39:04 Slay me, Right? <laugh> and being's done with this, you know, And, and she, and she said for herself, you know, for, for one, she had an addictive behavior where it really was like she woke up and she was done. She didn't have any desires over, and then she had other areas of healing in her life where she was like, Yeah, I would say I, I found myself kind of like feeling a bit like I was on the other side of it after about seven years, you know, of pretty, of pretty intense work, you know? And, and so it's good to remember that. Um, it's good to think about that. I, I wanna go here only if you wanna go here. Okay. So if you don't,
Speaker 3 00:39:38 We'll,
Speaker 2 00:39:39 We'll just like even cut this,
Speaker 3 00:39:41 I don't even know if you, um, heard me. I wrote a book that contains my deepest darkest secrets, and now I'm on a podcast asking as many people who is, who are willing to go buy that book. So let's, Alexis,
Speaker 2 00:39:55 Okay, let's go. We're going there. Okay, let's go there. But this is something that I wish that you would talk, like put on, I know you don't wear it all the time right now, but put on your past hat for a minute maybe, or put on your congregant hat. Maybe that's better. Put on your congregant hat for a minute, because all of this stuff that we've described and more is in the book, there's a lot in there. We didn't really go through the deepest darkest secrets part, which people are probably what No, we didn't. Um, but all of this happens, and then you're on staff at a very, very large megachurch who as a congregation, experienced church heard, um, because of the behaviors of the pastor. That was the, the, the catalyst kind of the, the, the thing that, that broke. So the question I wanna ask is, is maybe if you could speak to congregants, because I will say this, lemme just share like real fist reader's address.
Speaker 2 00:41:01 So I was chatting with a woman several years ago, I'd met at a playgroup or something. Her husband's a pastor, decent sized church in town. And she said they had come from a place where they had experienced church, or the pastor had had some issues and da, da da. And at the time I was kind of like, Oh, that sucks. But I had no idea the trauma that that would cause for that congregation. No idea of the emotional pain. All I just, nothing. It's something that I had heard of, but you know, it didn't have any idea how this is, is impacting their lives. Mm. Um, until we experienced it. And then I was like, Whoa. Like, sure. No clue, right? Yep. Then my family and I were in a situation where we experienced this back to back, like really, like we had experienced this, and then six months later, a different place experienced this.
Speaker 2 00:41:55 And I was like, okay. And so I told my husband, Here's the situation. My picker is my picker's broken. I can't pick churches anymore. I can't do it. Mm-hmm. You know, there's something happening, um, the patterns, you know, whatever. Um, and I realized part of that was probably true, but also part of it is like, whatever's going on in church culture in America right now, this is more pervasive than I wish it was. Mm. And what I wanna say is there's a lot of people that I see responding with basically, I, I, I'm not saying everyone who's saying this is trying to minimize the pain, but when I hear it, I hear minimization. I hear like, uh, everyone's, everyone's broken. Every, every church is broken, but the, but the church is still the best place to be and this and that. And I'm not saying I disagree with that as like a fundamental truth mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:42:42 <affirmative>, but what I wanna say is it's still incredibly painful to be in a, an environment that you feel like is supposed to be spiritually safe and nurturing, and it ends up being harmful instead. So I'm just wondering if, you know, there are people listening to this who are like me or like you, where we're not even in the same state and we've experienced this spiritual hurt from, um, just being members, just being parts of these communities. And so, I don't know, I mean, like, is that, can you just like, talk to us, like how did you guys kind of walk through it? Or what would your advice be if someone came to you and said, Oh my goodness, I'm really feeling this pain, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3 00:43:23 Yep. I, um, Well, I would, I would say, and to you and to all those listening, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Um, the, the, the church is supposed to be a unique place, um, where, uh, you can bring everything, all of your hurts, all of your pain, um, and you can find, um, refuge that you can, that it can be a safe, a safe place. Um, so I'm sorry. Um, the next thing I would say is honor your story. Um, honor your story. Uh, I know that, uh, well, that's the second thing I would say. And then the third thing I would say, um, is to seek places where your questions are welcome. Um, I think in, in some churches where either new pastor is installed or, uh, you know, congregants are on, you know, they're split for various reasons to believe this person or believe this person.
Speaker 3 00:44:23 Um, and you, what you cannot, what you cannot do, um, is let those people talk you out of your story, your own grief, um, and your questions. I think that as, um, horrendous as some of the things are that have, have happened, especially in the kind of American white American evangelical megachurch, um, I think some of the, the, the things that we're seeing are necessary so that questions, new questions can be asked so that new forms can be created. And so, um, I think that there is something, I think about this a lot. There's there wildfires and controlled burns. The outcome is the same. Um, and it is that things burn to the ground, uh, so that new life can be formed, new life can be created. Um, ideally we would find ourselves in places where we can do the controlled burns. So we can go, Hey, you know what, this is seems like a little bit of an unhealthy thing we need to prune here.
Speaker 3 00:45:26 Um, this is getting a little bit too loud. We really need to pay attention to this. Um, maybe we shouldn't have platforms in quite the way that we do. Or maybe we shouldn't allow them to just have their own sort of situation. Um, uh, and when we don't do that, we have what happens, which is these wildfires, um, break out and things burn to the ground. Um, and that's okay. So I also would speak to those who maybe have not experienced that and maybe find themselves on the other side of the comment section and being like, Well, we're all, imagine if we had our own, you know, all of our stuff just out, out in the, in the open. Of course. Yes, yes. That's, that's right too. And, and yet, um, that doesn't take away the heart and harm that someone has experienced at the hand of what they thought was a safe place for them to bring their, That's, that is a, the church is a unique place than any other, um, environment.
Speaker 3 00:46:30 Um, and so I think, again, I would say, I'm sorry. I would say honor your story and I would say, um, find spaces where your questions are welcomed. And then the very fourth thing I would say is that I had a friend of mine, um, an older woman, her name was Patty, a member of our church. And when my dad finally passed, she sent me this lovely card. She, she was like a hard lady. She had like a whole section of her home dedicated to just like, she wrote cards. And then a couple of months later, she sent me another card and I was like, Oh, no, Patty's lost it. So I didn't open it for months. And then we were going through some old mail, uh, a while ago, um, or a while from that time we were going through some old mail, and I saw that card again and I opened it up, um, and I was like, Oh gosh, I can barely read it.
Speaker 3 00:47:18 Margaret's like, just open it, just see what she had to say. Um, and she said, Blaine, this is the second card I'm writing you about your dad, um, just to remind you that grief comes in waves. And so I thought she had lost it. And here she was like just spitting old lady truth in her second condolence card. And that would be the thing I would say as well, is that grief comes in waves. And so, um, and this is, you know, probably kind of matrix over a whole conversation, um, is that, you know, those things that you thought that were finished, um, sometimes they come up again and you kind of repeat the process and hopefully have someone that can hold your hand or stand by the window and say, I'm sorry. And they can say, I honor your story. And then they can say, I welcome your question. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:48:11 That's really good, Blaine. Um, before, before I ask you the last question, I was, a picture came into my mind. Um, I had a guest, I don't know, a year or two ago, and, and, and we, it was similar. We kind of got into, got into this kind of personal stuff we were going on and, and she said, you know, cause I'm like, you really, I think we really want this, this way to healing, or way to, you know, to our destination and the Lord to be this like kind of beeline, right? We, we know that we're here and we just wanna go out, and that's kind of it. And, and she said, she said, yes, but a lot of times it looks more like a spiral out. And now talking to you, I'm thinking about the yellow brick road, how it starts in the middle, and it kind of spirals out at the beginning, right?
Speaker 2 00:48:51 And she's like, when kind of every time you pass this one spot, it's there, but you're in a different place, right? And it's in a different place. And so you're passing this, this area in your life that, you know, you need to experience healing. Um, but instead of being a beeline straight out, you know, three o'clock, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Yep. You, you, you kind of pass through it in this, in this circle, and you're in a different place in a different time and it's in a different place. And, and it ends up being this beautiful thing, but it's not exactly like what we want it to look like.
Speaker 3 00:49:22 Totally. And I would, uh, the, the amazing thing about that spiral, there's, you know, the law of spiral dynamics, and so it can go down, but then when you put it sideways, um, it actually, every loop backwards propels you forward,
Speaker 2 00:49:36 Breach,
Speaker 3 00:49:38 It keeps going. And so you will return to it in some way, shape, or form. Now, hopefully the loop is getting a little tighter right? As you're moving through. And it's not as dramatic as it was before. But when I, when I recognize the places where I've relapsed or the places where, oh God, I'm going back to this thing again, whatever it is, um, that I need to look at that and try and have kindness and care rather than shame. And when I do that movement backwards actually propels me forward. So it is not up until the right, it is that beautiful, uh, that beautiful spiral. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:18 And
Speaker 3 00:50:18 A good reminder.
Speaker 2 00:50:19 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So where didn't we go?
Speaker 3 00:50:25 Yeah, I
Speaker 2 00:50:26 Don't know where didn't, where didn't we know that you wanna go? I mean, where are you like, man, she didn't ask this, and I really wanna talk about it, Like, talk about it. What do you wanna, what do you wanna leave us with in this, in this book of your deepest, darkest secrets? But even in the course of the conversation today, just, I wanna let, I wanna let you have the last word and take us wherever you want us to go.
Speaker 3 00:50:46 So, um, I have broken the book up into three acts. Um, they're very different than the three acts that I described earlier. Um, but in the third act, um, uh, I talk about this family motto that my family and I have developed. And, um, in fact, you know, we're still moving into our place in Atlanta. Um, the pods, um, if you have read the book, have been unpacked, um, well, rather they've been deposited into our garage. Um, we are still going through them, but we found this kind of, you know, felt letter board. Um, and I was, I had it yesterday and I was like, What should we put on it? And I was like, Oh, yes, our motto. And so my daughter, Ruby and I kind of went through it and it's these, um, it's these phrases, uh, be kind, um, which we actually take from the remake of Cinderella.
Speaker 3 00:51:35 It's this beautiful, um, idea of kindness, um, which really is, I mean, it's just as simple as it is, Um, but to be kind to yourself, to others, and particularly those places of hurt and harm and shame in your story. So be kind, um, have courage, uh, which is, I mean, just that call, have courage, uh, be kind, have courage fail. We celebrate failure in our home. We have, uh, fail liberations in our home. Um, we keep boxes of failures around so that we can kind of memorialize the trying of, of an act, the trying of something new and different. Um, the second to last one is ask for help. Um, and then the very last one, um, is probably my most favorite. And it is do it afraid that we think that we are to go through life trying to hunt for some way to be fearless.
Speaker 3 00:52:37 Um, and I think what I've realized, at least for me and my house, um, that is not our goal. Our goal is to do it afraid. And so I think that's my encouragement, um, to anyone who's listening. Um, when you think of the places in your story that you've, um, been hesitant to go back to, or, or you are recognizing some sort of pattern, um, of behavior that you're like, Oh man, I, I kind of, I I feel like this is the next thing for me. Or though you, you can recognize where shame is, um, rearing up in your life. Um, great. Your, your body, your story, God is trying to tell you something. Um, and, uh, you will never get to a place where you're ready to do it, where you are fearless and go, I'm just gonna take that hill. Um, at least that's not been my experience. Um, but what you can do is do it afraid.
Speaker 2 00:53:40 Thank you. Yes, I was, I love the motto. Um, I loved it. I thought it was, I thought it was beautiful. Um, when I read that in the back, especially as someone who is afraid of doing things afraid and has, um, four kids, I want us to um, yeah, to operate that way in life as well. Blaine, this has been such an honor and a pleasure. The name of the book with all the secrets. Um, and the beauty too is exit the Cave, embracing a life of courage, creativity, and radical imagination. It releases on November 8th. I'll have the link so that you can purchase and pre-order in the show notes. Um, thank you so much Blaine, for coming on.
Speaker 3 00:54:26 Thank you, Alexis. It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 00:54:30 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth bti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at that makes total sense.com.
Speaker 0 00:54:45 You.
