Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Bassetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay. So for those of you who have not had a chance to listen, I'm going to link the episode with my friend Josh Buck that we did originally. And he told me maybe even in that episode, Josh, that you had a book coming out and it's like, fast forward, here we are. This is amazing.
Speaker 2 00:00:59 Yeah. Super happy to be here, Alexis.
Speaker 1 00:01:02 So this one, I, I had just received this book in my mailbox like a week before we saw each other <laugh> several weeks ago. And I was like, guess what came in the mail? And you were like, wait,
Speaker 2 00:01:18 You have
Speaker 1 00:01:19 A copy and I don't have a copy yet.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 I know you got a copy before me. Which is pretty awesome. That shows the power of podcasting.
Speaker 1 00:01:26 Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's, it's also embarrassing for me because I've had it that whole time and I'm like furiously trying to finish it over my coffee this morning at the dining room table. But it wasn't much of a stretch because it was, it, I couldn't put it down. It was amazing to read. So thank you so much. I'm gonna say the title of it right now before we just keep going on it, is called Everyday Activism Following Seven Practices of Jesus To Create A Just World. And it's pre-order now, which I'll put the link in, but it, it drops on November 15th.
Speaker 2 00:01:59 It's coming up less than a month away. This
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Is crazy. What a perfect like Thanksgiving topic table topic here.
Speaker 2 00:02:06 That's right. Nothing better than Jesus and, and activism for Thanksgiving meal, right?
Speaker 1 00:02:12 That's right. I mean we can have it all, all of, it's not really all of the, don't talk about this is like a totally different spin on some of this. This is definitely does not fall into the realm of don't talk about politics or religion. This is stuff that everybody, um, should be talking about and and doing with their families.
Speaker 2 00:02:30 It's true, you know, it, it's not a, it's not a book diving into the specific topics of justice and activism saying, are you for or against this particular hot button issue? It's more framing, activism and the work of justice within the scriptures in Jesus and talking about the practices of Jesus that you can apply regardless of your party or platform. So hopefully it would be a little bit more palatable with Turkey
Speaker 1 00:02:56 <laugh>. That's right. Well I will say this, Josh, I don't know, I don't want you to be like offended by this, but I'm like, I don't know why I was surprised, but the amount of scripture in this book, I mean I was like pleasantly surprised. I don't know exactly what I anticipated, but every chapter really every section of every chapter is grounded in scripture. So I will say number one, amen to that. And number two, I cannot imagine the hours you spent Exogen, these passages.
Speaker 2 00:03:32 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:34 <laugh>. Yeah. You know, a lot of it was right up my alley in that have, having been a pastor for a long time, I'm just interpreting seven passages from the life of Jesus. I'm in the gospels. And that was a complete joy and that was wonderful. And I think more than anything within US justice folks, the activism crowd, we need to be rooted in the text and the sacred scripture is in Jesus as the I am and as the word made flesh. And so for me, so much of this book is for anybody who's interested in activism, interested in justice work, interested in, let's say they really care about immigration cuz they're here in Tucson or close to the border and it's such a rough environment right now, politically, Jesus has something to say. Um, Jesus is eternally relevant for our moment where we need to be diving into these topics and understanding them and rooting what we think in, in Jesus and in the text, which is why, I mean, I had to push for a scripture appendix at the end or index at the end, which Baker was like, really? And I'm like, yeah, because that's important for people as they're looking at the book.
Speaker 1 00:04:48 Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's super important. And I found myself as I was going through each of these chapters, like amening to what you had just written and then, and then finding myself in a lot of places kind of looking at the scriptures in, um, in a different way. And I mean, you know, this is something that I'm, so I'm pretty familiar with, right? I mean, this is kind of, this is kind of my bread and butter too. But it was really great to, to have this book be so incredibly grounded in, in scripture. Awesome. So one, so one thing I just kind of, I kind of wanna start with the obvious thing for you. So in the last conversation that you and I had for the podcast, we talked about your work as a PhD in your dissertation in intercultural studies. And when you talk about everyday activism, how this is not for famous people, this isn't for people with a platform, this isn't for someone who has political connections, this isn't for somebody who has like money and time to burn.
Speaker 1 00:06:00 And so they're just, you know, out kind of looking for a project. This is for people like you and me who we have like ganga kids at home and like spouses and everybody's working and we're trying to do this kind of stuff all at the same time as we're doing our everyday lives. And your work in studying culture really plays into this because, and and I want you to get into some of these really fascinating statistics for me and what they, what they mean in real life, but we can, we can look to, and I think this is part of the confusion is because we can look to famous people who have given speeches and led protests and in these really amazing things, and kind of I think in our minds think, well they, they were the linchpin in this, you know, this person led XYZ movement and therefore things changed. But that's not really the whole story behind this. It's not like one leader was able to make this huge cultural change. It's people like a, like a mass of people like us who decide to do this in our own spheres working together in our communities. And that is what eventually makes the change, right?
Speaker 2 00:07:18 Absolutely. And I open up the book talking about how activism and following Jesus in a radical way is for everyone. Because like you mentioned, I don't, I don't lead an activist organization. I'm not somebody who's constantly posting on social media to build a platform around a particular issue. But I do look up to like King Junior or Dorothy Day, or for me as a white guy, Shane Clayborn. Yet what they're doing is something that I don't have access to do on a daily basis. And so the lie or the myth that we tell ourselves is that we have to be like them if we're going to create social change, if we're going to promote a whole list of gospel, if we're gonna actually make a difference in the world. Now, why is that a lie or a myth? Well that's because Jesus came to mobilize from the bottom up, not the top down.
Speaker 2 00:08:08 And and if anything, he was challenging the folks who were well known and famous and educated and who had platforms and he was recruiting people from the bottom up is disciples. And one scripture in particular that's really important is Acts four 13 where the disciples were promoting the gospel and creating social change and people were getting saved. And Luke notes that when like the religious leaders saw the courage of Peter and John and they realized that they were unschooled ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. The whole episode right now could be about that verse because it's incredible. They were astonished, they took note. Why? Because they were unschooled, uneducated. In other words, they didn't have the privilege to platform, um, the perfect messaging that an activist typically will have. And they were with Jesus. And that's why.
Speaker 2 00:09:04 So how can we spend time with Jesus in order to learn and feel empowered that we can make a difference in the world? So that's the premise of the entire book. And then I move, um, you talked about social change a little bit. I did the research of asking the question. So what does it look like for an ordinary person who's like working at a restaurant or they're, let's say, drowning in their bachelor's program or, um, they're go, let's say they're going through a divorce and it's just a really difficult season for them and they're following Jesus amidst the pain. You can still make a difference. You can still create social change if you don't hold this like position of leadership and power within your social setting. So if anybody is interested in, in asking the question, how do you create social change as a minority influencer, what that means is somebody who wants to influence for change, but they're like one of the only people. I talk about the latest research about that. And I connect that to the proclamation of the gospel that we're sharing about Jesus and the embodiment of the gospel that we're living out the gospel in our setting and how when you take that and we're persistent from the bottom up, we can actually make a difference in our workplaces, in our families, in our church environments that need to see change, um, with, with politics, whatever setting you are in on a daily basis, you can make a difference.
Speaker 1 00:10:42 Yeah. So I I really, there's like a place I told you before we started recording that I really wanna go and so, and so I'm gonna hold my finger there and say, let's, let's kind of outline this because you've got it set up in two parts and I wanna just name those parts so that if something strikes someone as they're listening, they'll have like a place to go to when they grab a copy because you, you start off with kind of, I'm gonna use the wrong language here, but kind of these like different realms of culture. So as someone who's been educated in this, I want you to define culture for us and then kind of list those. Are there seven, there may be seven, this kind of list, those areas. But then under that you talk about the practices that we can actually engage in.
Speaker 1 00:11:30 And the point is that when we engage in these practices that we can influence the, the culture around us, right? So start, can you, can you, like, you give us like a one, I'm like, with all of the cultural studies books I have on my shelf in there from seminary, Josh, you gave us like a one sentence, uh, <laugh> pretty, pretty succinct and, and accurate, uh, definition for culture. So give us your definition of culture with those, with those fears, and then what are the practices? And that'll kind of frame our discussion too as we're, as we're talking about this activism work.
Speaker 2 00:12:07 Love it. Yeah. So culture can be defined as the values, the stories, and the expressions that we organize around as humans. So values are the things that we hold that could be our morality and, and right and wrong. Um, and the stories are the things that we tell ourselves and the stories that are passed down to us from our family, from our nation, from our ethnic group. Um, and the expressions are, okay, this is how we live based off of these values that we hold and the stories that we've been told and that we tell about ourselves. And these are the expressions and that that is culture. And for anybody who's like, well, I wanna learn more, I footnote a lot. So I, I I even talk about how I arrive at that simple definition for folks who want to go deeper. So values, stories, and expressions and humans organize around a few spheres.
Speaker 2 00:13:07 And I'm just gonna talk about a few of 'em. That, to, to simplify, you know, we have like politics, we have economics, we have work, we have family, we even have religion. And we organize around these different spheres, okay? And what we're looking to do is make change in these spheres. And these are the things we overlap with and interact with on a daily basis around us. Maybe we go to church and we're with our family and like we go out and we buy things, which means we're interacting with the economy constantly and economics. And maybe we vote, maybe we don't, um, but we're constantly being told about this. So these are the different spheres. And so what I'm talking about in the book is that if we apply the practices of Jesus, we can make change within culture. We can make change within all of these fears that we are a part of around us.
Speaker 2 00:13:59 And Jesus taught us to do that from the bottom up. And so the, the, um, seven practices of Jesus that I talk about, and I narrow it down to seven, is love, empowerment, non-violence, rest, truth telling, forgiveness and mobilization, which has to do with church for each of those seven things. If we're gonna shape culture, what do I do? I tell seven stories from the life of Jesus that shape the way that we think about changing culture. Cause what is culture? It's the values and the stories and the expressions. So what do we do? We learn about a story from Jesus that creates values in our heart and that changes the way that we express who we are in the world. And when we do that with enough people, we can create change.
Speaker 1 00:14:55 Yeah. Thank, thank you Josh, for doing that. I'm gonna, I just made a note here because the thing that I kept going back to as I was in your culture section, um, of course you and I have done some work together on this, but you did some really, really good work in the culture story, a story arc at Made for Packs. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna link that as well because Good, I'm like envisioning even, uh, you know, parts of that story arc in my head where there's, you know, there's animation and there's story and there's lots of things that kind of help, uh, put put this together and kind of what it looks like in, uh, in life. I know we know what culture is, but to kind of have that definition in our minds and then think about the ways that our, those spheres are influencing us and we're influencing the spheres as well, um, is really helpful. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna note that too, if that's, if that's all right. Cause I think that's a good resource for people to, to head to, to get, to go a little bit deeper into that aspect as well.
Speaker 2 00:15:53 Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:15:54 Um, okay, so we're in a spot. We we're recognizing all of these things and we're still thinking, how am I gonna do this? And you have done some research, as you mentioned before, on what that starts to look like when things start to change. So help me out with the language. There's a part where you talk about critical mass and then what's right before that where things
Speaker 2 00:16:18 Yeah, momentum.
Speaker 1 00:16:20 Momentum where things kind of start to change, coach. So can you share a little bit about that research and the example that you used in the book was really helpful. So you can share that or, or any other way that you wanna talk about that, but that's been the thing that's been spinning in my head since I read it.
Speaker 2 00:16:34 Yeah, yeah. So I'll start with the foundation for all of it with, which is Jubilee and then I'd love to move forward towards, yeah. Towards, um, what Jubilee in action can look like. So the whole book, it starts off talking about everyday activism and we can all make a difference from the bottom up. And then we talk about what is the gospel and what is the foundation for activism and justice and mercy in the world. And we go all the way back to Genesis. We talk about the Imago Day being made in the image of God, and therefore all humans have a measurable worth and dignity. And that creates a foundation by which we interact with other people with full respect and dignity. And when people are robbed of that dignity, it is the job of Christians, those who believe we've been made in the image of God to, uh, support, help defend, uh, people in communities that are suffering or having a hard time.
Speaker 2 00:17:33 And that is supporting in ways that are beneficial to them in ways that they want to be helped and supported. And then we talk about, well, what is the gospel? Because in the West Alexis, we have a big divide. And a lot of this has to do with, um, the great awakening and, and, and the, the different movements in this country as our denominations of splinter. The gospel is either about spiritual life and that's individuals getting saved. Um, it's, it's like overcoming sin through the cross and the sacrifice of Jesus. And it's a very individualistic message. And so the gospel only relates to you as an individual, and then you only relate back to God as an individual, and you really aren't interacting with the world as somebody carrying the gospel into it unless you're trying to get somebody saved. So that's one camp. And the other camp, the gospel is about social justice and flourishing primarily.
Speaker 2 00:18:25 And so it's too much of an offense to like talk about somebody's sin. You shouldn't be interacting with people through evangelism very much. And really it's all about social change. And the reason why we suffer from this dichotomy or this false split, um, so much of it has to do with the development of our country and the history that we have as Christians here, uh, particularly white Christians, uh, with the, with the great awakenings in our history. All of that to say it's a really improper split spiritual life and social flourishing. Now why or how do we know that? And what I do in chapter two and three? So the Foundations for Justice section of the book is root the Gospel of Jesus within the concept of Jubilee because Jesus roots the gospel within the concept of Jubilee. So in Luke four, we see Jesus, uh, introducing his message, and we see Jesus introducing his ministry and reading a scroll from Isaiah, and it talked about this year of the Lord's favor thing.
Speaker 2 00:19:43 Now what is that? And in Leviticus 25, there was an institution that God's people were supposed to practice, where everybody who was overworked weren't overworked anymore. Anybody who was a predatory lender wasn't allowed to do that. Everybody who was a slave was released. Everybody was allowed to go back to their original land that God had given them. And it was a year of jubilee where the animals, the land, and humans were able to rest. And God says, I'm gonna institute justice and I'm gonna do this for you because you need it. So it was a political economic reordering. And then Jesus says he, he quotes Isaiah, uh, 61 and he says, this is the year of the Lord's favor. And he talks concretely about the social and spiritual things that he is gonna be doing, setting people free from prison, healing people, forgiving people. And then he sits down and he says, today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.
Speaker 1 00:20:46 Mic drop,
Speaker 2 00:20:47 Mic drop moment for Jesus. And in this, Jesus captures this beautiful and radical concept of Jubilee, and he says, this is my gospel. And he literally says, good news, the gospel, and then the rest of the Book of Luke and the rest of the Book of Acts is an outwork of what Jubilee looks like. And guess what it is? It is this holistic gospel. It's taking spiritual life for individuals and social flourishing for all. And it's bringing it together as God is trying to have heaven meet earth as he talks about, as he's praying to his Father in the Sermon on the Mount. And so this is the foundation, like why do we care about justice work? Why do we care about mercy? Why do we care about, uh, people learning about Jesus and accessing salvation and also social flourishing that they're taking care of?
Speaker 2 00:21:45 And everybody has enough to eat and politicians are acting right, and there are abusive leaders are being held accountable. Why is that important? Because of the gospel? Because it's intrinsic to the gospel, not because, well, this is just like something that happens in churches that they're supposed to do if they get to it. No, it's intrinsic to the gospel that we embrace a holistic vision of restoration and the rest of the New Testament in the early church, were living out this jubilee in this gospel living. So that's, that's the foundation, um, on which it stands. But Alexis, I had a question for you. I was curious, oh, no, as we were talking before in the, in the, in the church culture that you grew up in, what was the gospel? Was it holistic? Was it separated? And then like when you come across Shalom, you know, you come across Jubilee, these biblical frameworks for a holistic gospel. What did that do to you? I want to hear
Speaker 1 00:22:53 Yeah, so, so we've, we've chatted as friends, we had some similarities kind of growing up, and so will not come as a shock to you that the gospel. So you actually make a point in the book, you say, like, you ask that question, what does the gospel stop and think about it? Right? Um, and so the gospel growing up for me was very individualistic, right? It was Jesus came, he died on the cross, you rose again to save you from your sins, and then if we just wanna be real so that you can live forever with him in heaven. So, but I will, but I will tell you, I think I feel like in a lot of ways, even though it wasn't always upfront for me and I kind of had to battle it, um, yeah, the Lord had always put the ideas of jubilee and shalom in my heart.
Speaker 1 00:23:53 So when I had instances and, and really in my household too, let me just be real about that. Like my, my dad, um, probably would've been called a social justice warrior back in the day. Um, he had, uh, he has a political science, uh, education. And so he thought about things a lot differently than our kind of Bible belt, white evangelical, um, you know, roots would've thought about things. And so when I had these discussions with people that were in my church culture about, you know, death penalty sticks out to me, um, care for the poor sticks out to me, you know, some of these things, I would always go into these conversations really believing, and I've kind of said this facetiously, but you know, kind of believing like, well these people love Jesus, so they're gonna have, they're gonna share my views on this, honestly is kind of what I thought.
Speaker 1 00:24:46 Um, you know, uh, but they didn't, for the most part. For the most part it was a very kind of Americanized individualized, uh, gospel. So it was, um, justice means retribution, right? Because someone has done wrong and so they deserve to be punished. Um, if someone is living in poverty, then they should what? Pull themselves up by their bootstraps because everyone has opportunity. If someone is experiencing, um, you know, discrimination, same thing. The victim is kind of responsible for, you know, figuring this out. It can possibly be a systemic issue. Um, you know, kind of all of these kinds of things. And so, but really, I will say one of the things about even this topic about flourishing, about Jubilee, about shalom, about relationships and community culture, that kind of thing is it's, it's not helpful to have these views in isolation either. Good. And that's how I felt growing up, um, is that even though I felt like this, I didn't really have community to, uh, affirm or encourage those views or a community to live out that part of the holistic gospel with, um, you know, and it, and I didn't feel like I was making much traction, you know, kind of volunteering here and there or, you know, having these discussions or, or writing papers or whatever it was when I was, especially when I was younger.
Speaker 1 00:26:13 And so I found myself doing things, um, with secular communities who maybe didn't share my religious perspective, but were on the ground working for the kind of social flourishing that I found to be valuable. And, um, and so I was thrilled when really as an adult, not that many years ago, started to find people like, well, like you and I just spent a whole bunch of time with people who are, who are in this community, who are trying to do this kind of work because of the gospel. Not, not because of our views on the gospel, not as an aside, uh, to the gospel and not as a part of a different, you know, community organization or something like that. But it's because we love Jesus that we're seeking the flourishing of ourselves and others. So yeah, I don't know, does that answer your question? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:27:05 That's so good. That's helpful. And yeah, I love what you said in terms of not throwing out one or the other, or not isolating one or the other. Because when you look at Jesus, he interacts with individuals and he is confronting them in like their lifestyle. And he says, go and send no more. And then these feeding people before he teaches them because he knows that like their hunger is a barrier to hearing these radical teachings about creating change in the world. And it's crazy how we gravitate towards one or we gravitate towards the other. And, and also that's just a very western thing is to dichotomize and to separate and it's black and white and it's one or the other. And I'll, I'll say this to Alexis and I won't speak for the communities that you are in growing up, but it's a lot more convenient when you say the gospel lets me live how I want to live in my wealthy community, traveling and eating and watching as much TV as I want without actually looking to my biblical neighbors and to my neighborhood and to my area, to my region, and say, what areas of Jubilee does the gospel call me to?
Speaker 2 00:28:21 And then what am I doing about it? Right? Yeah. Um, and you know, and yeah,
Speaker 1 00:28:27 Well, no, I, I was just gonna say, it was actually one of my, one of my, in high school, it was one of my Catholic classmates who actually really challenged exactly what you're just talking about. You know, he's like, that doesn't even make any sense that you could just do this and then just go live, you know, however you wanted to live. But as we, as we know, the Catholic tradition, tradition has a, has a very rich history of, uh, of working toward that part of the, the social part of the gospel, um, as well. And so for, for him it was just like, it wasn't even connecting, you know, like how does, how does this worship of God translate into this kind of lifestyle? It just seemed illogical to him, and I would agree. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:29:09 That's good. Yeah. So it was about a month ago and I was sharing a presentation on my book to a group of pastors and one of them, uh, planted a church close to a military base in San Diego and has, uh, a lot of military folks who go to the church and he's very reformed white guy, um, probably early thirties, amazing guy leading this church of like young military families. And we read Luke for, we talk about what it means, and then he raised his hand and he looked at me and he says, what is this? What are you saying? What do you actually mean? And I looked at him and I was like, well, read it. What does this concretely mean? And I, I saw the disconnect because it's like, this is too provocative and too radical. It's to provocative radical. And here's what we know.
Speaker 2 00:30:05 We don't actually think that the Jews ever practiced the institution of Jubilee in the Old Testament. And we don't know why, but one of the reasons is it was so radical every 40, 50 years, all the people who acquired wealth and influence and status are really gonna have to give it up when they earned it. And they, whatever you say. And so, uh, Jesus gave a spiritual meaning to this very social thing in the Old Testament where he is saying, yeah, I'm giving spiritual jubilee. You're gonna overcome demonic powers. And through the power of prayer and fasting and the proclamation and literally sharing of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, we're gonna overcome these spiritual powers of darkness and everybody can flourish socially. And what Luke four doesn't do is say, well, here's the top down instructions, Alexis and the Old Testament. That is the case.
Speaker 2 00:31:05 So Jesus is saying, from the bottom up, from the church up, from ordinary Christians up, we have to wrestle with in our liberty and Christ what Jubilee looks like in our local context. And that circles to the question you asked me a little while ago. So what does that actually look like? So we have this holistic gospel, the power to change lives, power to change hearts. This is the resurrection power that we have as Christians. Now we can go out into the world and what are we going out into? Well, these fears of culture, so work and family, let's pick those two. Cause those are the hardest ones. What does it look like to carry Jubilee into our work setting with annoying bosses? Yes.
Speaker 1 00:31:49 No, okay. I'm, I'm like, I'm putting my finger up. No one can see me put my finger up. But you, before you, before you keep going, I'm gonna interrupt because I just had this thought and then, you know, I don't know, Seth can cut it later if he's like, what or what are you talking about? But I'm like, this, but this, when you're talking about how radical it was, right? And that we, we don't think that this was actually practiced right in the Old Testament. So a couple of thoughts came to my head, but, but there, I think they're gonna lead into kind of what you're doing as you just shared this, this difference, uh, potentially between what was happening in the Old Testament and what the expectation is in the New Testament. Isn't it easier as just a regular old citizen to blame somebody else and say, well, you know, the priests never let us in that, I mean, they, you put them in charge and they didn't actually like fulfill this.
Speaker 1 00:32:34 Like, the judges aren't doing this, priests aren't doing this, Levis aren't doing this. What are we supposed to do? We don't have any power to do that. I mean, if I, if I don't, I can't get just go grab land back from somebody else and I can, you know, like there's, I think for all of us, I'm not trying to blame this on the Israeli ice. I'm saying for all of us there's this kind of like, well, if my leadership doesn't do it, I mean I can't really be held responsible. But then if there is that twist as you're, as you're, as you're suggesting that this actually now becomes, there's not top down instructions, this actually now becomes something that we are responsible for being the ones who bring these realities to life here. Yeah. Like bringing the kingdom here in these ways, this reality, this becomes individual responsibility, not in the dichotomy way that we just talked about with the gospel being an individualized gospel, but saying that we have responsibility as individual members of a community to actually put this into practice. And now all of a sudden the buck stops with me.
Speaker 2 00:33:39 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:33:41 That's chilling Josh.
Speaker 2 00:33:44 Absolutely. And this is, this is how we are empowered by Jesus, but we are challenged deeply by discipleship. And so to pick up our cross and follow Jesus, sure it has to do with personal piety and not, and not lying. And, and um, and it also has to do with caring for the widows and orphans in distress. It's like the first thing that was written basically in the New Testament was James. And he sounds a lot like his brother Jesus, where he says pure and unfiled religion is caring for widows and orphans and keeping one on stain for the, from the world. And we can't lean towards one or the other where it's about personal piety or this public witness where we are radically loving and caring for and including people into our lives and being cared for too. You know, it isn't just to reach out and help people, but it is being willing to receive help when we are like a widow and orphan and in need in whatever we're going through.
Speaker 2 00:34:43 And so I'm with you, and I think it's so convenient, like that pastor looking at me and saying, what does this mean? Is we're looking for an explanation to justify how this can't be that radical. And so Jesus sat down, dropped the mic, they're confused, and he clarified what he meant by telling two Old Testament stories where God's people, um, were two leaders were reaching out to Gentiles when they could and should have been reaching out to Jews who were in distress. And the fury rose because for them they said, we are the oppressed. We are the ones hurting. We are the ones in jail under Rome right now. And Jesus doesn't say that they're not, but he also says, there are people outside of Israel that I've come to go to and I'm gonna mobilize you to bring Jubilee to them, them as well.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 And that was too much for them to handle from this young quote, arrogant rabbi raised in that town. So I think it's so critical for us not to explain away the radicality or radicalness of Jesus, because that does disservice to the historical setting of the gospels and actually what Jesus came to do and being killed as a religious political radical who is saying things in doing things that not only challenged the status quo, um, but that his people didn't endorse and like, yeah. So all of that, you're listening to this, you're like, I'm not sure get, get the book simply to dive into the concept of Jubilee. And if it's not enough for you, because this is like written as a popular book, there are a ton of resources. You could probably go on Amazon and just like click on the back pages where, where just I'll email you a list of resources that talk about Jubilee and it syncs up with shalom, it syncs up with Exodus, it syncs up with blessed to be a blessing in the Abraham Covenant of like what holistic transformation looks like.
Speaker 1 00:36:52 Yeah. So sorry, I mean you were gonna go to work and family and I think that we, I think that we still can, I think that's where we can be because this really is like when this, this is, this is a place where that everyone has, everyone is doing some kind of work. You may not be actually employed and get a W2 and everything, but everybody's doing some kind of work in the world and everybody is a member of in some kind of family setting. And so to bring that all the way back, Josh, yeah, so sorry for the like rabbit trail, but I'm just like, wait, we can't, we gotta stop at this. Like actually really was crazy radical for Jesus to be saying these things. And then now like, what? So then what do we do with that? And that's where you were going next is like, okay, this is crazy radical. And then, and then we're responsible now. So what do we do with that?
Speaker 2 00:37:39 For sure. So, um, it has to do with taking the practice of Jesus that's meaningful in your setting, that's needed in your setting. Maybe it's truth telling, maybe it's forgiveness, maybe it's rest, maybe it's love, nonviolence empowerment and taking that and living it out and spreading that virally to those around you. And so the latest, and this is chapter three of the book, how Social Change Happens. So we have the gospel and our heart and our lives as we're talking about, we're willing to share it, we're willing, we're willing to live out Jubilee. And I give a very practical situation of somebody working as, as a waiter at a restaurant and a a, a buser, an older bus guy is getting taken advantage of by the bosses getting made fun of. And then as somebody discovers a story, they're not getting access to a raise, to a job promotion because generally people don't like them and the bosses are like gossiping too.
Speaker 2 00:38:40 And as you learn about their story, you realize this guy has a very hard life and is under a difficult situation. And so you take it on yourself to create change at your workplace for the sake of the gospel and for the sake of Jubilee. Okay? And I talk about what percentage of people you need to get behind you in order to do this. And so generally there's called a point called critical mass where all of a sudden we, uh, more people have smartphones than never had them before. And there's a critical mass point where it's a snowball effect. And once that snowball is rolling down the mountain, you can't undo it no matter how many people in power there are. And that's the talk of revolution. That's what happened to the early church. You have this Rome, this crazy power that's pussy pushing down on these Christians and what happens, um, they couldn't stop the snowball effect of the gospel and the social change that was happening from the bottom up.
Speaker 2 00:39:46 So that can happen in our work settings, in our family settings. And I lay out, get the book the five steps of what that looks like. Determination being one of them, getting buy-in from others is another one. And this is the latest social science on how we create social change from the bottom up. And really the crazy thing is all you need is 25 to 40% of people around you in a work or family setting to buy into whatever practice you're promoting. Let's say it's love, neighbor love. You're gonna, you're going to um, help and support this guy at work in a way that he wants to be helped and supported, appealing to the bosses, appealing to corporate, appealing to fellow workers. You need 25 to 40%. So if there's four people, 25 is one, okay? You just need one other person. And if there's 20 people, somebody to do the math, I dunno what the math is, it's just a few more.
Speaker 2 00:40:44 That's that's how many people you need. But there needs to be persistence in living like Jesus in, in order for other people to be one over by what you are doing. And so the challenges for everybody to identify the areas they wanna see changed in their home, in their workplace, just as those two examples in their church. And what is it gonna take to see those change? Now I want to talk about the three types of social change. And this is in my book too. And this is very important. There's gradual change, there's sudden change and there is leaving to start something new. And this is so important for Christians. If they're in a cultural environment and they're like, this is dysfunctional. I want to see some change, I want to help. I'm not gonna be the pastor, I'm not the matriarch or patriarch of this family, I'm not the boss at work.
Speaker 2 00:41:49 What should I do? You need to identify what type of, uh, change you want to take part in because there is gradual change. And listen, gradual change is the commitment to be there for a long time because the quote, peace and equilibrium is more important than change. And so you're only able to make gradual change. Gradual change, okay? And then the second type is sudden change. And that's where the dysfunction or lack of jubilee is so high that sudden change needs to happen. But the people who almost never want that to take place or those in mm-hmm <affirmative>, they don't want that to happen because people leave <laugh>, people get angry when sudden change happens. The equilibrium is no longer the thing you're worried about. Justice is the thing you're primarily worried about. So we think of Jesus flipping tables, uh, that is trying to create sudden change cuz he is like, this is so dysfunctional and evil and lacks the gospel jubilee that I'm gonna come in and just try and make sudden change.
Speaker 2 00:43:04 Well, what happens? They get angry and upset at him. Um, and we see this within social movement. Someone like Malcolm X is like sudden radical change is what we need. King Jr is like, I want to appeal to white America. So, so gradual change and appealing to presidents is something that, uh, is gonna work in the long run with non-violence. And um, and I would actually claim that King Jr is more of a mixture of the two, but different people believe different things. Okay? And then the third one is to say, this is such a dysfunctional environment, I won't be able to make change. And so I need to be a part of something new and something different. And I would say as Christians, we need to be asking ourselves the question, what type of change agent is God calling me to be in this environment? And that's not an easy decision to make, but that's something we talk about in the book and wrestle with in the book.
Speaker 1 00:44:04 Yeah. When you talked about taking the time to discern, you know, what that might look like. Um, I also thought of, uh, there are people recently who we can see have done the the last one, right? Like when we saw, um, Jamar TBE did a whole, did a whole podcast series on leaving loud, right? Because it's like this, this is dysfunctional to the point we've we've tried, right? They've even, they'd even tried these other things didn't work. Um, Beth Moore got a lot of flack because she just left the Southern Baptist Convention. Um, yeah. And, and so there are, but those decisions even to just decide to leave were not made rashly from these leaders. They were, uh, made with the discernment. I was looking for this other part. Josh, you, it was near the end of the book. It might have been in the conclusion where you also struck me with this like real truth that was really frustrating on the, on the, the topic of change because you essentially said, and I can't find it right now, but you essentially said even if we're not seeing change, that we still should be working <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:45:25 Yeah. Can you talk about that too?
Speaker 2 00:45:27 I, you know, I'd love to talk about that on two fronts. One, the goal of Christians is faithfulness to following Jesus and being faithful to the way of Jesus. That's the goal of a Christian. And we could talk about loving God, loving neighbor, declaring the gospel of Jubilee glorifying God. The goal is not outcome oriented. And that is so important for Christians to understand, especially, um, younger Christians entering the faith with a lot of spirit, a lot of steam. We are not promised world transformation. And when you look at the witness of God's people throughout the Bible, in fact you're usually, uh, a minority group of people suffering and struggling to live like Jesus, uh, in really difficult cultural situations. That's generally where God has called his people and where God's people have been caught throughout history. So it's, it's pretty arrogant to think that we are some exception.
Speaker 2 00:46:33 And I would say as I interact with people who care about justice and mercy and activism, you're constantly teetering between hope and despair. I can actually do this. What in the world am I doing? This is horrible and nothing's happening. And, and that teetering is normal. And as we teeter on the days of despair that we would say, I do this because I love Jesus and I'm being faithful to what I'm called to do. So that's number one. And I do talk about the goal and the aim is faithfulness. Actually the goal and the aim is not social change. And that's very important for activists to understand. Second, uh, I lost it,
Speaker 1 00:47:20 <laugh>. That's right.
Speaker 2 00:47:22 Um, gimme one, gimme one sec. Sure. Oh, yes, I got it. It came back, <laugh> came back.
Speaker 1 00:47:28 That never happens to me. You must have taken, I
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Hope leave that in in the, in the interview because that's normal life for humans, right? I forgot what I was saying. All right. The second thing is we are not allowed to just complain and moan and wh because we can't make change or because people reject us when we're trying to make radical change, we're not allowed to do that as Christians. And Well,
Speaker 1 00:47:57 I'm gonna take that part out. We'll leave the part where you forgot about it in, but I'm
Speaker 2 00:48:00 <laugh> I know, I know.
Speaker 1 00:48:01 We're not allowed to moan and complain and
Speaker 2 00:48:04 No, and, and listen, listen to the spirit with which I'm saying that. Yeah. Uh, there is such a spirit of judgment and whining and complaining and rock throwing with an activist in just the circles within sec the secular world. And then within the Christian world, it's the same. Nobody's good enough, nobody has the right language. Everybody's on notice. Everybody is like constantly calling people out, but like not wanting to be called out. Okay? That's so much of the justice circles that we run in. And what I want to say is we have to make a positive contribution towards the change. So, so much more than all the talk and on all the online engagement and all the complaining about the church and just the complaining about the government and politics. I want our lives to bebo to be an embodiment of the solution. And let me say really briefly, that's been the goal of my life.
Speaker 2 00:49:06 Okay? I was at a church and I realized they, they don't care about a young leader properly and they don't care about church planting and they are so concerned with the status quo and appeasing this person who's on staff and no one gets, the king is naked. And that is to say like, so many things are wrong, but nobody cares. And I was like, I can't be a part of this system so I'm gonna quietly and honorably bow out and I'm gonna go plant a church. And they ended up supporting us, giving us like 300 bucks a month for years and years and years because I was like, I can't destroy this. I need to go do something else and I'm not gonna talk crap on the way out. And then packs is another example of what can the contribution be towards the solution? Because I can whine and complain all day long.
Speaker 2 00:49:59 I think I have great answers. I think I know what's up. But that doesn't help the world, that doesn't actually promote Jubilee most of the time <laugh>. So I have a whole chapter called Truth Telling, where I talk about how do we call people out? How do we speak truth to power? And I use Oscar Romero as our, as our Jesus like example of that. But I give cautions about social media and just the justice movement that, um, can lack Jubilee at time. So those are the two things that I would say is we gotta do the work and make a positive contribution and faithfulness and love of Jesus has to be our goal and our aim.
Speaker 1 00:50:40 Yeah. Okay. Josh, I'm, I'm looking at this knowing that you and I could talk about this all day. So here's what I'm gonna ask you. Cause I have a page full of notes and you know that, and you know that we didn't get to half of it. So if you could pick like one more thing, one, one question that like, woulda, shoulda, coulda. I, I, I could have asked you but I didn't. What, what do you wanna leave us with?
Speaker 2 00:51:02 Absolutely. So some people who will read the book care about one issue a lot, let's say it has to do with race relations, let's say it has to do with immigration. Let's say it has to do with, um, refugee crisis and you carry a burden for that particular issue because of your family's story and your heritage or God called you to that. And I wanna validate that. So the book is gonna say, this is how you posture around Jesus as you do that work. I don't talk about specific issues or a political platform or like a candidate. Okay? What I do though is at the end I have a justice matrix. If you are a leader or a pastor or you are a part of an organization that wants to move in a more jubilee esque direction, I have a justice matrix where you can begin thinking through how to place your work in the movement of God and the world.
Speaker 2 00:52:11 And I talk about geography of jubilee, local, regional, and, and global issues. And I talk about, um, the strategies of Jubilee and that is, uh, prevention work, intervention work and reclamation work. Or, you know, a popular way of saying that too is like rehabilitation work and to say within this matrix based off of the issue that I'm called to, where does this fit in and what does this mean about my participation, how I should be engaging this? And that's where the book parlays into a leadership training is, is to say, how can an organization, especially churches posture themselves where Jubilee and Justice is not a tangent to, or an attachment to the gospel, but intrinsic to what the church is doing. Um, and on that, uh, my website should be live by the time this airs jw buck.org. I've got a free 50 page guide for helping churches move in a more jubilee and just direction. So how can from the top down a church institute jubilee and care about justice and mercy? So I give like a five part five steps for churches to embrace justice, and that's something you can download for free. Uh, and I use a little bit of the book in that, but I talk about the justice matrix more. So that's it. Everyday activism.
Speaker 1 00:53:42 Awesome. Yeah, when I explored the appendixes just a little bit, that was one of the things that stood out to me was the geographic points, right? Like, cause I think, I think sometimes, at least in my mind, activism feels really big, right? It's like, what can we do at the national level? What can we do at the global level? But then when you include what can you do at your local community level too, I think that, um, not just a balance, balance is kind of a generic way of saying it, but I like the, to think about it in all of those ways helps for a more holistic perspective, uh, and not just perspective, but holistic work to take place. So I'm excited about it, I just put that down. So, um, we'll put the, we'll put the link in for that also. That's a very generous resource, so thank you for that. Um, okay, so my friend Josh Buck, everyday activism following Seven Practices of Jesus to Create a Just World comes out November 15th. I will put the link for how to purchase this in the show notes. Josh, thank you so much for coming. This has been amazing.
Speaker 2 00:54:44 Thank you Alexis.
Speaker 1 00:54:47 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth bti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at, that makes total sense.com.
