Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Bassetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. All right. Well, I've already admitted to our guest that I did not finish this book, Marlena. Usually I will say something like, oh my goodness, I finished this like 30 minutes ago or yesterday or something. But this is rich and big and expansive and wonderful. And so I have read a taste of it and I can't wait to keep going. Um, I have Marlena Graves with me today, one of the editors on this book, the Gospel of Peace in a Violent World, Christian Nonviolence for Communal Flourishing. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 Yeah, Alexis, I'm so happy to be here. And I thank you for your grace. And, um, yeah, I mean, it's not the really, the kind of book, I don't think that you, you can read in the sitting cuz there's different topics and some of it can be really heavy. And, um, so, you know, it's, I think it's kind of one that you pick up, uh, you know, like essays like on communal, right. Nonviolence and communal flourishing. But, um, uh, I think it, we don't capture everything possible for shalom, but, uh, and peace, but we try as much. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:01:54 And it's, I mean, and the, the topics that you cover, I mean, is amazing. But also, I just wanna throw out there that, I mean yes, you and Sean, a hundred percent and this cast of all stars that you have, <laugh>, I mean, I have, I have had the pleasure of talking to a few of the people who contributed to this, like, um, uh, Mac Hannah and, uh, drew Hart. But then you've got, I mean, Greg Boyd and Randy Woodley, and I mean, there's just, the list goes on and on Kathy King. I mean, it is just incredible the, uh, authors, the activists, the pastors, the experts that you have each, and that's part of what's so interesting, kind of each writing in their own realm that they work in and, and are probably most, uh, familiar with and most comfortable. And then how that contributes to, uh, the message as a whole for yes. Um, for peace and flourishing. So that may be a good place to start. You edited this, I noted that, that you were one of the editors, but Sean, your husband is the other one, he's also a scholar. So how did this book idea even come to be? Like, what made you guys think this is gonna be a great project and these are some of the people that we might want to contribute to this?
Speaker 2 00:03:15 Yeah, so I was not the original second editor. Our friend Michael Paul, who is a Mennonite pastor in Canada, in Albert Alberta, but he used to be, he's also a New Testament scholar and he was my, uh, husband, Sean's colleague where they used to work. They came up with the idea and I was like, yeah, this is a fantastic idea. This was a probably like 2014, uh, around then that, or maybe even 2013. And so we started it and we're like, okay, the first thing is like, who are we gonna ask to do this? And like, yeah, there's sort of 20, I think 23 contributors. Um, and so that was, that took us a while to figure out, okay, who we wanna act, you know, they had my input. I'm like, oh, I think you should ask so and so. But, um, Michael had to return back to Canada where he is now, and, and he got busy.
Speaker 2 00:04:09 So he is like, I can't finish this off. So Sean's like, okay, you know, not, he wasn't upset at him. He's like, okay, what am I gonna do now? So Sean asked me to come on. I'm like, okay. Um, so I, uh, it kind of had a start and stop because we moved, uh, from when we first had the idea. And so there was like a two year like hiatus on the project. And then, um, we asked all the people that we wanted to ask and it took, cuz we, like you said, we have activists, pastors, all this other stuff, and we didn't know what was gonna like blow up in 2016. Yeah. And then we're like, okay, we have to get this book done. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that we could have written, um, on like, just the contemporary things happening. I'm like, oh my gosh, we gotta get this book done because like, all this stuff is happening. But because all this stuff was happening, the people that write it couldn't get it written because they were active on the ground. That's
Speaker 1 00:05:03 Right.
Speaker 2 00:05:04 So like, some people were like, well this is, you know, I don't know if they would say it's old hat. This conversation was not happening to the extent it is now that it was back when we first wanted, uh, to submit to it. We had no idea what was gonna happen. And it took us like five years, five years from when we asked it to get everybody to turn their stuff. You know, like the first drafts and then around again. And then stuff kept happening in the culture that, I mean, writing was not the most important thing for these people to do or for any of us to do. So I I the fact that it is done, um, and Sean and I said it was just a labor of love, not labor love, cuz we're like, Hey, I'm sorry to ask you, can you turn this in?
Speaker 2 00:05:47 You know, and we know that they're busy, uh, cuz we're in kind of a similar situation. So that's how it came about. Um, and that's also some of the reasons there might be not, not like, you know, something mentioned about the insurrection because this already had gone to print, you know, with before January 6th happened. Um, so, um, but we thought the information was ever green enough that we could, you know, continue it on. So it was, I guess for such a time as this, um, people had been thinking about these things prior, but then it just became more salient in the culture with everything that happened in the last how many years, you know?
Speaker 1 00:06:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's really good. I mean, and there are some things that are re like 2020 is reflected mm-hmm. <affirmative> in, um, in some of the, uh, essays and some of the spaces in the book. But it is evergreen and I think it is on the radar of a lot of Christians now. And I would say maybe part of what I've seen is since 2016, since 2020, I think there are some Christians who are asking how, how might we respond to these cultural events in a different way mm-hmm. <affirmative> than maybe we have historically or we've seen our predecessors do historically. Um, there's some language, uh, a lot of mentions of King in the book. Right. And, you know, I think we, you know, kind of, there are many Christians who are probably looking back and going, I don't wanna respond in the way that we saw a lot of white evangelicals, for example, respond to the civil rights movement in the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 1 00:07:21 How might we respond in this moment that is true to the church tradition that we want to be a part of. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and this, these theological concepts of shalom and nonviolence and flourishing, um, haven't been the kinda haven't been the meat in a lot of our American evangelical traditions. And so this feels, uh, like, this feels like fresh water to read, um, to read these essays and to even just, even just look at the, the theological concepts. What are we even talking about here? And how, and what does that look like, um, on the ground? I don't wanna jump there right now, but you do have the con, the concluding section of the book that really talks about practical ways that we can put this theology, um, into practice. But, um, you know what, a lot of the, a lot of the contributors of this book are, um, from traditions where shalom, nonviolence and flourishing are a part of their everyday lives. Like men and I, um, you know, tradition, things like that. I mean, how would you say those traditions are helping us in kind of mainstream American Christianity today understand these ideas?
Speaker 2 00:08:43 Yeah. I've noticed like more people turning to, you know, sort of those traditional traditions for help. I mean, really it's the early church tradition too. I mean, the early church was like, they weren't even sure that people should be soldiers in the Roman army. Right. But they're like, if you are a soldier, you know, this is what you should do. Um, and so I think this has been part of the Christian stream. It's been part of the Roman Catholic social action for a long time. Um, it's just that for some reason among evangelicals in the like 20 and 21st century, these things are associated with like Marxism or, I mean, which blows me away. Um, because it's just like, you know, I read Ecclesiastes and in James, treat your workers well. That's right. You know, how do you treat your, you know, care for the orphan and the widow?
Speaker 2 00:09:35 That's true religion. And, you know, and so it's, I think it's been politicized and uh, it's just, it doesn't make any sense to me to be honest, if you read the Bible and know Christian history. But, um, it's been politicized so that, um, it's heard people are hearing, uh, I forget Eric, I forget the last name of the guy that said this, but they're hearing what we're not saying, you know? Yeah. It's like, no, we didn't say that. You know? Um, and so Christians, I mean, you know, the abolitionists in the 1850s, um, women for Women's Rights, a lot of them were Christians, you know, to get the right to vote. Um, not all, but a lot of them were, uh, the women's movement. So, uh, and I think that's just not knowing history and just being captive to a certain kind of politics or, uh, philosophy of the age.
Speaker 2 00:10:26 Uh, so yeah, you know, I think of the, you know, in Jeremiah when it says, you know, pray for the welfare, I think it's 29 7, pray for the welfare of the city because in that you'll find your own welfare, you know, all sorts. Like I mentioned earlier, it says, you know, pay your workers even in Ecclesiastic, you know, and James, you know, the workers cry out. And so, you know, even how you treat your Christian or not coworker, how much money you pay them, are you robbing them, uh, you know, again, the orphan and the widow, the stranger. Um, and even, you know, we talk about violence, different people talk about violence in the Old Testament, um, because, you know, that can shake your faith. So, um, yeah, that show lo uh, and I think another bad theology is like the evangelical, um, I call it es uh, left behind eschatology, like I heard in the nineties and after, you know, the world's going to hell in a hand basket, so it doesn't matter if you pull up the earth or you know, whatever happens, it's just gonna be on fire.
Speaker 2 00:11:26 We're gonna go to heaven that sit. And I'm like, wow. I think in scripture, you know, even the Lord made covenants with the animals. He cared about creation. Um, you know, when he is making the covenant with no and all this, I mean, he include the animals on that. And I always thought that was very interesting. So I don't think the Lord's attitude is like, yeah, just pollute the earth, let it burn to the ground cuz you're getting out. But I think that theology has, um, that eschatology has influenced how we treat people in the present.
Speaker 1 00:11:55 Oh, a hundred percent. It's a hundred percent influenced how we, how we treat people, as you mentioned, how we treat other parts of creation. Um, and that somehow has overridden mm-hmm. <affirmative> the, I think, more powerful, um, true parts of our, uh, theology. And, and when I read, uh, Sean's contribution mm-hmm. <affirmative> on the love ethic mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, I had, I don't know every other page dog eared. Right. Amen's and the margin, you know, this kind of thing because he really delved into that theology and why, and why that matters. You know, I think that it's, it's interesting how you talk about this. These doctrines just guide our behavior. Right. And when we have a, a doctrine that says it's all burning up.
Speaker 2 00:12:56 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:57 Who cares? Uh, then that drives how we treat people, how we treat things, how we treat the earth. Um, but if we have a doctrine that's driven by the great dis commandments to love God and love each other and love ourselves,
Speaker 2 00:13:13 Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1 00:13:14 Then our behavior would reflect that. It's just, um, and he addresses it here and I would love for you to expand on it a bit, but, you know, he talks about loving being actually, so one of the quotes I have is when, um, when one loves another one labors to ensure that the beloved has a genuinely good life.
Speaker 2 00:13:37 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:38 Right. It's not like, and any addresses love for enemies and, you know, not just having emotions toward people and things like that, but actually taking action mm-hmm. <affirmative> to try and, and make someone else's life good. Yeah. Just kinda the opposite of what, of what you just talked about, which just kind of been our mo unfortunately
Speaker 2 00:13:57 For,
Speaker 1 00:13:57 For generations.
Speaker 2 00:13:59 Yeah. I mean, yeah, what he says exactly. I, again, I feel like it's like church history, which a lot of people don't know because they haven't read it. But those of us that have are like, you know, um, I think about, uh, St. Bas or Basil, depending on how you say it, you know, uh, one of the church follow, he's like, and John Christo too. They're like, if you have two coats in your closet and the poor person needs it, you're robbing your, your thieves. You have what belongs to them. I mean, they did not mince words about what to do with your money and it could get very overwhelming Alexa. So yeah, I need to seek the good of the other. But you might say, well, Marlena, there's like so many people that, and so much need, and I only make a certain amount of money or only have a certain amount of time.
Speaker 2 00:14:43 And I agree, God does not expect us to be super human, but like, you know, in your town or where I live, we're gonna move here in a like six months. But I'm supposed to seek the good of my local community. And if I have brothers and sisters far away, you know, I do what I can to, you know, give to them probably more monetarily cuz they know what's going on, where they're at. But, um, I have to do my best to seek the flourishing of the place where I'm at. So, and since I'm only one person or we're only one family, and you know, your family too, there's only certain things like, okay, so I I I'm gonna be moving to Rochester, New York. I already know that, um, one of my peers, his name is Fred Johnson, his, um, uh, Baptist Church, African American Baptist Church, they secured grants for, um, um, fair, fair and affordable housing.
Speaker 2 00:15:44 So their church is building apartment houses and all this stuff. They have grants for affordable housing. I'm like, okay, that's something that I wanna be, I very much care about affordable housing, uh, for the poor and that they, they're housed. Okay. So I'm like, okay, maybe we can send some of our ties there. And then there's like a bilingual school, Spanish and English. I'm like, okay, maybe I could care for the students there. Like they're probably 10 or 15 minutes away from where we will move, but, or will live. But also look, you know, what is it in my community, uh, with my church? What do the kids need? And so I think things like, it sounds so complicated, but really it's not. I'm like, can I seek the flourishing? Uh, not only my family members, right? Like Sean, he, he lives what he talks, he's made great sacrifices for our family, you know, to seek my flourishing so I can go to school.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 Um, and so it's God again, doesn't want us to be superhuman, but we all have like different things that the Lord has laid on our hearts. Um, you know, and I, I care a lot about the environment too. Uh, but a lot of my life has been with like, you know, the undocumented farm workers, uh, poverty. And I try at home not to do things to pull it, the environment. For example, I'm always telling my girls, I don't wanna buy this for this to go in a landfill. So I know I sound like a mean mom, but let's think about it. Like, if we like, you know, well give it to Goodwill, mom. Yes. But what if they throw it away? So I, I mean, it sounds like I'm kind of a, a scrooge, but I'm also like, want my daughters to think about like, I want you to have toys and stuff, but do we actually need this?
Speaker 2 00:17:19 Or are you gonna throw it away next week? Because I don't wanna add to the landfill. So that's my small contribution. And recycling of course, um, is my small contribution to like taking care of the earth. If I could make lots of me, I'd be someone working on ecological justice, you know? But I'm only one person. So I, when when I'm saying yes to something, I'm saying no to other things. Trusting that God's people, hopefully reading this book will nudge them. But they will in some kind of area, they will seek to do good to their neighbors, not just think well about their neighbors, like, or have good intentions towards their neighbors, but actually love their neighbors, which will probably include sacrifice of money and time.
Speaker 1 00:18:08 Yeah. I mean, you don't sound like a screw at all. In fact, I feel like that sound bite minimally is gonna go to my kids and I'm listen to what this, it's not just mommy that talks like, anyway, so, you know, so thank you very much. Um, but it's, but that's good because we all are, we have to steward what we have, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, resources, time, knowledge, you know, those kinds of things. And, and, and yeah, God doesn't, isn't asking us to do more than that. <laugh>. Right? He's asking us to steward what, what we have. But can you talk about, cuz honestly just because it hasn't been a part of much of American White Evangelicalism, um, can you talk about the concept of flourishing and specifically the concept of communal flourishing? And I'm asking that in part because, um, it's more than do no harm, which I think, you know, maybe has kind of been the, an underlying kind of, uh, you know, theme. But also America has a problem with individualism. Yes. And we don't often think about communal anything really. Right. Much less this idea of communal flourishing. So can you talk about flourishing and communal flourishing? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:30 I mean, thank you. And I was, I was like, oh man, I need to say something about just more than individualism too. So we're thinking I'm the safe wave length. So, okay. For example, um, like one of the, uh, I, I'll just give an example from where I live right now. One time I, there's a, there's a Facebook page for my community and I knew the answer to this, so I was kind of like, not playing the devil's advocate, maybe God's advocate, but <laugh>, um, because I said, Hey, why isn't there a lot of affordable housing in this town? You know, which I didn't realize until we moved here, cuz it's close to where Sean works. That's why we initially moved here. Um, and some of the answers that came just blew my mind, right? Like, well, what do you mean affordable? Like, uh, you know, $1,500 a month, 2000, you know, like it's affordable for some people.
Speaker 2 00:20:34 Um, and you know, basically keep somewhere like keep the rif raft from the city cuz we're in a suburb of Toledo out. Uh, and so there's not a lot of, um, and I'm like, I was just trying to raise the topic of affordable housing where I live mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because there's not a lot of, um, you know, there's single homes, not a lot of, some apartments, but they're all really expensive. Um, and you know, not like, um, and I'm losing the word for, you know, houses where two people can, occupants can live in it. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a reason for that because that is an invisible way to keep the poor and the riff RF out of this suburb, I was like, you know, I wondered, but to actually hear or see people write that on the Facebook page was very indivi like, basically we want to keep this suburb the way it is.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 Uh, we don't want, um, our, our property values to go down, you know, basically saying when the poor or people of color come in, it puts property prices down, which is not true. I'm not gonna get into that right now. But, um, and so when I think about cam communal flourishing, I mean, this is a very classist area that I found myself living in. Um, and um, and I thought, okay, Lord, what can I do here? Let me raise the question. And I, I, I'm like, I said, why isn't there? And I'm like, I think I know why, but let me hear from the people <laugh> instead, I, you know what, this is my hypothesis, but maybe I'm wrong. I turned out not to be. And so it was a very conscious thing. They, certain people, whoever the certain people are, whether a certain class, a certain demographic, uh, are not wanted.
Speaker 2 00:22:23 And if you build certain kind of housing, affordable housing here, then that will change the climate, I guess, of the area. It won't be buzzwords, it won't have such safe schools. Or you might, even though it is well known that it's the people in the suburb with the money by drugs <laugh> from the, you know, you know, there's a drug problem, but they wanna hide that. Right. And it's a mostly white suburb. So the drug problems with white people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, so I'll say communal flourishing. I think even some Christians can kind of get into that mentality. Like, we want this to be a certain kind of neighborhood. Uh, but I've read statistics about where, you know, more, um, diverse neighbors are actually better for people. Um, and that such so communal flourishing for this community where I live now, but we're gonna be moving, I think, you know, I I had talked to Sean about this before we moved.
Speaker 2 00:23:17 I'm like, maybe you can get on the city council or something for zoning. So this is not just a, a neighborhood where people with a certain income live and for example, the house, our house prices went up. We would not be able to afford to buy our house, uh, right now. And, you know, it was like knocked $30,000 off or, you know, it was knocked off the, it was like we got it for a goodbye when we bought it like five years ago. We would not be able to afford to live here in this neighborhood where we live. Um, because the housing prices keep going up and people say it's cuz of the school district. But you see what I'm saying? Like, well, there's not communal flourishing. People are just thinking about housing prices and the certain kind of people okay. That they want in the area.
Speaker 2 00:24:01 Not everyone, there are people that do care about affordable housing, but that's the kind of the vibe you get. And so if you are of a, again, certain demographic or social class, you're really not wanted here. Um, because it brings the housing prices down. So that's one area, like communal flourishing here. If I stayed here, we would seek to kind of bring justice about affordable housing, which would probably put us at odds with some of the people in the area. It's not like we're looking for fights or anything, but I think poor people should be allowed to live in this area and not just be at the peripheries, you know, or in stuck over somewhere in the trailer park where the highways passing them, where if like, you know, car flipped over could flip down on the trailer park, you know, the highways above them, they're under the, they're under the overpass. Literally the trailers always look to see where the trailer parks are or where other places are.
Speaker 1 00:24:58 That's
Speaker 2 00:24:59 Another justice.
Speaker 1 00:25:00 That's a, but that's a good point because like you said, you're not, you're not trying to pick a fight. Right. And I get, and I get that and, and I will tell you, I've seen similar things on our Facebook neighborhood page. Right. That just like made me sick to my stomach. Yeah. And you know, I'm like, I'm, I don't normally engage on here. I was just, you know, trying to ask a question about the park hours, you know, or whatever. But it's like, but then I see this kind of thing in it and it is really disheartening. Right? Yeah. But, you know, not trying to pick a fight. And at the same time, one of the notes that I have starred <laugh> on my page from the conclusion is that sometimes, like we have to understand though, that sometimes the pursuit of peace is disruptive. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:25:46 Like it is disruptive to the status quo. It is disruptive to the economic system. It is disruptive to certain institutions, um, because the pursuit of peace, justice, flourishing mm-hmm. <affirmative> will be at times disruptive. Right. Um, so yeah. So like, so, so what does that look like? I mean, what do we do when we come across those, those kinds of things. Like, I don't know, how do we, how do we get the courage to continue? How do we know when to, you know, when to disrupt? I mean, I I was just listening to a podcast earlier today and it's, he, the, the guest was saying something that's, that's, that's, um, wise and, and commonly said. But he said, I think if we're gonna change, um, together, we need, you know, a slow change is kind of the way there. Right. He was kind of talking about church communities, you know, sometimes you can't just like force something on somebody and then expect everybody to get there. You know, kind of moving slowly and sometimes that even the slow move can be disruptive. But sometimes there's um, you know, something that needs, that's urgent that needs to be disrupted, you know, now. Yeah. Um, so I don't know. So what is, what is wisdom, uh, and the pursuit look like in those areas?
Speaker 2 00:27:05 So, you know, uh, we have something, uh, here called the Black Brown Unity Coalition. And it's not, um, again, it's not, and there's, I don't wanna say there's white people there too, but it's led by black and brown people. Um, and so, I mean, one thing, and, and I, I know you know this and I imagine that those that listen to this podcast note, but you know, you don't come storming in telling the neighborhood what you want done for them. You consult the people here. So I know there's probably people that have lived here 20, 30, 40, 50 years that are aware of this. So I have to do the homework to find out like who these people are, um, and what's already happening and how I could come alongside them. Um, because you don't want, um, to destroy the work, inadvertently destroy the work that's already been done.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 You know, they have relationships, they know the community. So, okay, God, how can I come alongside? For some people it might be, you know what, I have a chunk of change. I'm gonna donate to this because I don't have time, but I have money. Um, that's not usually me. <laugh> usually what it does not have the money, but I can have time or I could write something in the newspaper about it. You know what I'm saying? Like, use the gifts that I have. And so, um, that's, you know, there's always start local. You know, Jesus was very local. He cared for other places. But you know, that, you know, after he, he ascended and the disciples were spread throughout the earth. Like even though they're spread, they're all local to where they're at. Right. I mean, unless God's calling you to do international work, okay. That's a different thing.
Speaker 2 00:28:37 And we all work together. Nothing's mutually exclusive. And when, and also the Lord in, in scriptures are talking to the Christian communities. So like, okay, okay, Marlena, she can write something in the newspaper cuz she has the writing down. Someone can give money. Okay, what's this past or this person doing? We can support 'em, we can vote for these people. So we use the gifts that God's given us or the, you know, times talent and money, however we can, knowing that it's not up to us. Like, um, we have to be humble I guess is what I'm saying is like, uh, you know, I uh, remember I never heard Richard Twist speak, but he was a, you know, um, someone called me when they were at listening to him speak and they told me like, you know, he said, uh, before he died, uh, he's like, we don't need anyone to come paint our damn schools. Go paint your own damn schools <laugh>. Like
Speaker 1 00:29:25 That's right. That's right.
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Yeah. So basically like you're coming in trying to tell, you know, you're trying, you're thinking, you know what we need, we don't need you to do that. We need whatever it is that we need you to do. You know, go paint your own schools. We don't need you to go do some kind of, uh, work of righteousness to feel good about yourself cuz you went onto the Indian reservation <laugh>. Right. We don't even need that. So come get to know us and see what we need. So I think that's what we have to first do. Like, um, humility, get to know your neighbors. Um, not cuz you want something from them, but that's just like Christian Love. That is even being counter-cultural in itself. Yes. Because, you know, Saudi is so individualistic and we're also closed off. So that person that actually knows their physical neighbors names and know what's going on, they're gonna be countercultural. And I think that's how we start to, you know, just pick one thing, one thing in your local community to care about and, and go from there. You know? Cause I think we can't do a thousand things well.
Speaker 1 00:30:23 Right, right, right. So you bring up Richard Twist and um, gosh,
Speaker 1 00:30:32 Thinking about that, that brought me to, to your section, honestly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause we, so this, so, so since we've been here, we've, we've kind had this his, this theme, this little thread of history that we've had going through our conversation. And you wrote your chapter, your essay was on immigration mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And uh, and I'll be honest you, you answered my question, but the first few pages I was like, where is she going with this? Because you start your chapter on immigration with Native American history mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and you continue with history of, um, other persecuted, marginalized, um, groups in the us. But I think that also points to another thing that you're saying, besides knowing our history is doing things communally. And so recognizing that what we're seeing, for example, at this moment with, um, with immigrants who are brown specifically mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>, this isn't an isolated thing that we can just, that we can go in anymore than we can go in and paint somebody's school.
Speaker 1 00:31:35 We can't go in and say, we're just gonna tackle this one problem. This is, and treat it like an isolated thing. Oh we're gonna, we're gonna solve this problem of, of immigrants from south of the border. No, we have to go back. Yes. And we have to go, we have to be able to go around too to to understand kind of why these things exist and where we're coming from. So, um, I wish I had like a super specific, uh, question here, but I do wanna say what, for those who haven't read your essay yet, why did you begin a chapter on immigration with histories about Native Americans and Japanese Americans? Um, yeah. What, what did that have to do? What is that, what is that connection? Why is it important that we even think about it?
Speaker 2 00:32:27 Yeah, Alexis, I I think you kind of got it. This is not an isolated thing. I wanted to demonstrate, um, that xenophobia and mistreatment of other people, not only is it just history cuz it continues. Um, but, uh, I mean I'm not, I'm not gonna get into this too, but in my studies of American culture, in my PhD work, I've been very depressed. Um, and um, I've been very depressed because I found that those in the church, especially the pastors, the leaders, those who did what was right was rare. Like the white evangelical leaders, yeah, we had a time with the abolitionists, but usually the white evangelical family members really just reflect the culture of hate and xenophobia. You know, they're not counter-cultural, they kind of just go with the flow. So that's what I was kind of demonstrating, like, um, when I was talking about immigration, like we, you know, we, we've done this to, you know, the Native Americans, African Americans, uh, Japanese, Chinese, uh, you name it, you know, the Irish, uh, the Benjamin, uh, Franklin hated the Germans.
Speaker 2 00:33:37 He thought they were gonna dilute the, the pure culture, you know, in Pennsylvania. So at one time I was the Germans and that was not even color of skin. Right. That was just culture. And so this is a problem that I think is systemic in our united, I won't say United States, I don't say American cuz they're South America. Right. Uh, in the psyche in the United States. And that what I was trying to demonstrate that, and you know, since maybe the, well, actually in the 1930s, uh, Mexicans, uh, not just Mexicans, but people south of the border have been the primary targets. We'll use you for your labor. Yes. All the farmers know that you run the agricultural industry in the United States. And actually farmers are for immigration reform. Um, they want to reform it, uh, because they know there's a lot of people here working.
Speaker 2 00:34:25 Um, but we, we say, Hey, come into our country, work for us, but then we make it hard for you to even feed your own family or, you know, come in. So it's really convoluted and I don't have like the answer right now. I have some suggestions, but my whole point is that it's been intentional. Um, and that the church has been involved and repentance on these things come slowly <laugh>. So, um, and listen, I haven't done them, but I'm part of the Christian Church in the United States, so I take responsibility, right? Like, no, I did not do X, Y, or Z, but my brothers and sisters in the faith ancestors before me, people now are doing harm. And since I'm part of the church, then I am also responsible for the mistreatment in some way, right? Collectively. Cuz in the Old Testament, the Lord was like, okay, we need to do a national day of repentance because of your sins. Now I'm sure in the Old Testament, I had someone like, like, attack me over this. Why are you telling people they haven't done anything to repent? I'm like, didn't the Lord do that in the Old Testament? Let's call for a national day of repentance on XYZ because you have ash or polls or whatever it is, uh, that you were doing wrong, even though every single person in that nation did not commit the particular sin. He still called the nation to repentance. And, um, talk about being collective not individual, right? So,
Speaker 1 00:35:49 Right. And, and you know, I think part of that is, as you have mentioned as we talk about history. So there, there's a lot of individualism, but there's also a lot of ignorance of our own history. So it's not just an ignorance of church history that would, that would empower us to carry on some of these beautiful traditions from the early church. But it's also that we have, we have a lack of understanding of our national history mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there are probably lots of things in your chapter that would've been surprising to people who read it. I will say that the events in the chapter were not surprising, but I can tell you what it was, some of the response from our national leaders to those, you know, or that, hello, that one of the guys who led one of the bloodiest mm
Speaker 2 00:36:40 Say
Speaker 1 00:36:40 Was that ordained pastor. Like, yes, no ma'am, right? But we aren't always aware of those things and how complicit we have been as a, as a church community. And that's, that's devastating to moving forward. It makes it, it makes it close to impossible to move forward when we don't really understand where we've been or, um, how complicit we've been or what it might look like if, you know, we don't even sometimes have a vision of what it might look like if we were to communally, um, repent and, and try and move in a direction that was, that was different than what our ancestors, um, have paid for us.
Speaker 2 00:37:22 Yeah. And I also wanted to say too, yeah, you pointed out I wanted to show that it's history, but that it is also still like
Speaker 1 00:37:27 Absolutely,
Speaker 2 00:37:27 It's still repeating itself. Uhhuh it hasn't been nationally. I mean, I really care. And I'm not saying that everyone in this book I care about the church cause I feel I'm called to the church. Cause if you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to act like Jesus. You know, what rubs me and gets in my girl is when the church perpetuates atrocities or these injustices, uh, you know, I can barely, I don't know, I I can barely stand it. Um, so I mean that was a motivation for, for my chapter to say, yeah, this is what we've done, what we continue to do.
Speaker 1 00:37:59 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:38:00 I was talking about immigration, um, you know, as a matter of fact, cuz it was based on a talk I gave, um, a plenary talk I gave. But yeah, so yeah, you gotta, I I it is still happening. We like to say. Oh, that was in the past. That was in the past. No, it's not in the past.
Speaker 1 00:38:13 Well, it's, it's not in the past. And, and to, to your point on your chapter. Um, so I, I just, the more educated I get in this, uh, in this area and topic of immigration, uh, kinda the more I get. But, um, it's, it's interesting. I, so we had to read a book, I'll, I'll pull it outta my closet and put it in the show notes, but we had to, to read a book for a class I took recently. Um, and it was really all about the history of the United States and Mexico and the immigration. Okay. And I wanna say that at one point, I don't think it was, uh, me paraphrasing, I think at one point the author literally said, the United States just wants to have its cake and eat it too when it comes to Mexican immigration, right? Yes. We want exactly what we're talking about.
Speaker 1 00:38:58 We want the, um, labor and we wanna be able to say, you know, leave. And it's, you know, this, this, this back and forth, up and down for all of these years. And so that's part of it. The other thing that several years ago this surprised me was when one of, so this is like back in the day, this was the, this was the McCain when he was, when he was acting with Kennedy, I think, right? And they were putting together this like the, the kind of the common sense immigration reform that was, that was way back, that didn't end up passing. But, um, there was a story that another author came and, and shared, uh, here and in her book about McCain basically kind of, you know, getting irritated with one of the, uh, leaders from a Christian activist group saying, why are 80% of the phone calls I'm getting from Christians? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> saying, don't pass this, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, what are you doing? They're against this kind, this communal, flourishing, right? Yeah. And he's, he's mad and saying, I thought you guys <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:40:03 Right? Yeah. Of all people,
Speaker 1 00:40:04 Of everybody of all people. Right. Or the should be the ones that would be for this. Right? And, and we weren't. And, and so, and that, and that continues right now. I mean, I live in Texas, please don't make me start what it looks like here right now in the culture around immigration here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's insane. Marlena. Like, it's crazy. So I mean, I don't know talk, talk about that. Cause I, I had notes about like the connection with food and you know, kind of all the stuff. But what are we doing right now as the church that is counterproductive, counterintuitive to our faith when it comes to, when it comes to this particular topic in immigration?
Speaker 2 00:40:47 Yeah, it's really interesting cuz it depends what part of the American church. Okay. Are we talking about evangelicals? Well, I just read something a couple weeks ago that said evangelicals are actually more open than they were in 2016 to immigration reform, which made me happy. Like I seldom good news on this topic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but you know, I know a lot of, they're not just people of color, but you know, the Roman Catholic church, they're like all in it trying to help, you know? I know I'm one of the bishops in Texas, uh, no, you kind of know like on Facebook and stuff and we've met in person, but, uh, Roman Catholic bishops, he's, he's Bishop Flores is was his name. And uh, he's in um, uh, what's it the southern part of Texas? Bishop Flores. Um, anyways, he and other people, they're just work with whoever, you know, let's get a hold on this.
Speaker 2 00:41:38 Um, and no one I've ever heard says like, let's have an open board. Let whoever come in, you know, you know, let you know, uh, people come in that are criminals. No one says that, but I don't think it's a either or, you know, you can still have a safe border and still, uh, bring people in. But anyways, um, actually, you know, and uh, world relief does a lot of really good things. I'm always talking to people at world relief, they're evangelical. Uh, I know a lot of people at World Relief and that lead to immigration, um, uh, act, you know, immigration reform. I know a lot of the people evangelicals and, but then there's like another, uh, again, another faction if you wanna say or section that are like working against the things that we are all working for. So it's really, um, you know, I, in like 2016, 17 when I wasn't in school, I was working on the ground with undocumented workers and farm laborers.
Speaker 2 00:42:36 I had like, I think they call it like bystander ptsd cuz there was always something in the national news, something really, really, really, really, really bad happening. And it stressed me out because I saw, you know, fathers get deported that had been working, you know, all this. Like, I'm like, I am so stressed out and it's not even happening to me, but it's happening to people around me and on the national level. But at the same time, you know, I'm not trying to get overly political. I, it was interesting for me to see the blow back that governor DeSantis from Florida got from, you know, flying those people to Martha's Vineyard. I mean, so it's kind of encouraging. It kind of really just depends on where you are. And it might even depend on the city where you are. Because in Toledo, um, we've worked, I've been part, not just me, a bunch of people, right? It's not, it's collective, uh, the Black Brown Unity Coalition to work with the Toledo Police so that they don't function as ice. So if you get pulled over because you've got a speeding ticket, your taillights off, you're not gonna get deported. You have to pay that ticket and then, you know, hopefully you have your, your papers and stuff, but they're not gonna throw you in jail to deport you. But that's not the same as maybe places in Texas or Florida. So it's very, um, arbitrary depending on where you live.
Speaker 1 00:43:44 Yeah. And you know, something else that was, um, that stood out to me when I was, I took a clash on, um, transnationalism and, and migration and, um, one of the things that stood out to me in, in that material was that while many Christians, um, are really, are, um, you know, feel more favorably as you just, as you just noted, one of the things that's difficult though, and it, and it's so, so maybe, maybe two things here. One of them, so I'll start, I'll back up and go, the group that you said is potentially working against is kind of working against the things that we're all working for. The elevator speeches that I hear from those kinds of groups are the exact opposite of communal flourishing. They go back to your, to your affordable housing kind of thing. And the rhetoric sounds like, don't take our jobs.
Speaker 1 00:44:37 What are you doing here back home? It's a very selfish, you know, kinda individualistic tone right? That I hear it's not the, not communal flourishing, but with a lot of c Christians being feeling favorably towards this. The thing that stood out to me is that we're not active though. And it doesn't mean we have to go out and, and do something necessarily, but it's, even as I went back to McCain's example, we're not even like contacting our representatives, for example, to let them know how we feel about immigration policies or things like that. And it was noted that if we don't inform them, then they'll just listen to whoever's louder, even if they're in the minority when it comes to that position. Right. So maybe we have, that kinda goes back to what, what genre, like it's not just like this feeling like it's a, it's a labor for someone else's flourishing and that can really look like sending an email or calling your representative or you know, leaving a message or something like that just to say, Hey, just so you know, I'm your constituent and this is how I feel about these immigration policies.
Speaker 1 00:45:47 It's one thing to hold that belief, but if we hold that belief silently or privately or you know, it's, it's not gonna do as much good as if we hold it publicly to a degree.
Speaker 2 00:45:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah. Because, um, that you underscored that. Yeah, it, the individual things we do are great, but we also have to love bypassing good laws, right? I mean the Jim Crow laws and the South and other places, cuz they were in the southwest too, you know, no ne no dogs, no negro, no Mexicans, you know, the same like, it wasn't just in the southeast, you know, those laws have to be overturned. And so we have to, because people are suffering from those laws, you know, like I was telling you when I had like ptsd, I'm like, oh my gosh. So it is like a local thing, but you know, unfair laws need to be overturned. And I think that's minimal telling. If, if, if we've never done that before, if someone's listening to this podcast, please, you know, uh, you get, there's easy ways to do it to let your senator know.
Speaker 2 00:46:50 And I always tell people, be very kind. Don't be disrespectful even if you disagree with people. Cuz why would they wanna listen to you if you're just cussing them out? Right. <laugh> No. But if you, you know, say, Hey listen, can you do you know, I support x, y, Z? That, that is minimal. But one thing I I do wanna say that you reminded me of too on this podcast is that national, um, national, what I'm trying to say, uh, trends usually start local. So a lot of anti-immigration stuff sta started in California, like, you know, the 1930s and forties and then it swept across to like Washington DC and then there were laws made, right? Uh, even with the, uh, like the Chinese exclusion acts of 1882. So people are like, well it doesn't really matter what I do. No, it does really matter on the local level. In fact, it matters so much that people that have opposing views know that they're getting on the school boards and on the city councils because they know that local politics matter. So don't over, uh, don't ever underestimate what you do locally because, um, it can have national reverberations sooner or later. And so for good or for ill, so
Speaker 1 00:48:04 That's right in, in fact, I was reminded that one of the last school board elections that we had here, and of course in Houston we have one of the largest public school districts in the country, right? It's a giant, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> school district. And so school board elections were a big deal. And um, and I remember the race being really, really tight. Um, and, and one of the recent elections for one of the seats, and I wanna say it was something like, less than 500 votes decided this, you know, this election. And it's like, yeah, you might wonder like what's the big deal? It's a school board, like what in the world? But no, because you're exactly right. Like those are the places where things like this start. Like those, those are the seeds. Yeah. For good or for, for Ill, um, Marlene, I have like one last place I wanna go and then Sure.
Speaker 1 00:48:53 After we go there, I'm gonna let you just take it wherever you want to, uh, to kind of close this out. But one of the places that I wanna highlight in the section kind of on what, what can we do is you talk about platforming historically marginalized or silenced people mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And um, and this strikes me especially because, uh, we're both Christians, we're both seminarians, we both, um, have pastoral calls to a degree. We wanna serve the church, we love the church. And um, and I wanna know how we can do this well in the church or even why we should do this well in the church. Um, one example, and this is, this is kind of across the board, but I was, I was chatting with someone recently who had gone to a, to a conference and was, was naming some of the people that were there and, and we would both know their names and <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:49:50 And probably even them personally, I've chatted with some of them, but she was kind of disappointed because she just said, I mean there were really only a couple of people there who represented voices that were not white male voices. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the white men were saying good things, but it was like, but where was everybody else? You know? Yeah. Where, where were the other people in the room? And this is just one anecdote, but the statistics play that out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, in Christian spaces. And, and this is one of those things I say it, it ought not be kind of, kind of with the, of all people, right? This should be one of the places where we're well represented, but we kind of look like the rest of the rest of the, you know, the US in that space where it's this white male dominated, um, area. So why is that important? Um, especially if some of these white men are saying some of some similar things, right? So why is it important and how can we play that out? Well as Christians in the church?
Speaker 2 00:50:48 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's a good question. Um, let me, I'll back up and give you like the metaphorical reason why we should, um, then I'll be more practical. So I've been thinking about this a lot and when we only see just white people, but it doesn't have to be white people, whatever. Let's just say Puerto Ricans represented and we don't see anybody else, right? It's not just white people. Well if I'm just gonna change it a little bit, so maybe it'll help, uh, maybe listeners if, if they don't quite get it. So let's say you always just, cause I'm Puerto Rican, you always see Puerto Ricans and no one else represented no white people, no African Americans, no Chinese, you know, or no specific islanders wherever. Uh, no, yeah. Like, say indigenous people. You are only seeing, I think when you only see like either one ethnicity or culture, let's even put it to culture.
Speaker 2 00:51:39 Like American culture, you are only seeing like a little bit of the face of Christ. You cannot see the face the, a true representation of the face of Christ if there's only one aspect that's being represented, right? Like cuz maybe a little part of his cheek, right? You know, um, you know, if you think of like the squares faces made of squares, right? Um, and so we're not really seeing Christ if we're just seeing it through either the lens of certain people's eyes or cultures and we that impoverishes us. You know? So like, you know, if this conference was made up of all Puerto Ricans, um, you might have some fun and great music and there will be good things said, but we need to hear the perspectives of other people to give a more, uh, uh, accurate representation of Christ. And also not just, not just cultures and ethnicities but class. Cause it's usually middle, upper middle class people that can afford to go to the conferences and are chosen to speak at the conferences. This is like a whole nother ballgame. So I'm not gonna get into it, but my point,
Speaker 1 00:52:49 Hope it's important. I'm glad you brought it
Speaker 2 00:52:51 Up like ethnicity and class. Um, cuz the church is not just made up of middle class Americans or upper middle class Americans, which I now fall into, which I never had before cause I got my new job, right? Um, so I have just entered economically, you know, this kind of tier of, uh, class. And so, so I, I would say we're being impoverished by not seeing the face of Christ. You just, I mean it's to our poverty mm-hmm. <affirmative> we're we lose out. Um, and we're not seeing Christ's faces clearly.
Speaker 1 00:53:30 All
Speaker 2 00:53:30 Of us is how I kind of conceptualize it. But like, you know what, why, what should we do? Like even like people of color and Hispanic like, we're like, okay, open doors. We're like, okay. I mean it's, I don't know if it's just in our cultural psyche or whatever. I'm like, okay, you know, I I there's some people of color even not just people of color. Let me just say this. Like what, there's some writers that I know their voices should be heard. Okay, I know editors. Oh, so and so meet so and so, you open doors for people that might times meet where I'm not gonna be speaking at this place because I think someone has never had a chance to speak. I know I'll get a chance to speak again later. At some point I assume give this person a chance to speak because even I don't represent like all Puerto Rican or all people of color.
Speaker 2 00:54:15 Um, and so it's, we have to those of us in positions of power, podcasters, speakers, and you do, you do this right? But we have to, uh, use whatever privilege we have to open the doors for other people because other than, I mean, if we don't, it means like we're being selfish and, you know, taking it all for us. And there's enough to go around. Except a lot of times those of us, uh, with privilege or spotlight a lot, we just get greedy. You know, we get greedy. Um, we don't want, we're like, yeah, you know, I wanna be the one on that stage. Um, and that's not how the body of Christ functions, you know, uh, John Chapter, he must increase so that we must decrease. What do we have to do for Christ to increase? Well, it can't be all about us, so,
Speaker 1 00:55:04 That's right. That's it. That's good. Marlena. Thank you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, alright. What question did I not ask? Where did I not go? Is there something left in you that's like burning that you wanna share?
Speaker 2 00:55:18 No, I, I think you really got to things. I think again, it's important to start locally. Um, don't be super human. You know, that's where the book's so long. It could be overwhelming cuz you see all the areas where we need to follow Jesus, but God never meant for us to do all those things. Even Jesus didn't do it all right. But there might be an area, you know, someone listening, saying, you know, I've been kind of nudged like this. I haven't done anything. There's always one thing that you can do. So I, you know, um, like Emily Freeman and other people say, do the next right thing. Right. Whatever the next right thing is.
Speaker 1 00:55:51 Yeah. That's really empowering. Thank you so much for sharing that. You're welcome. Um, so this rich big book, the Gospel of Peace in a Violent World, Christian Nonviolence for Communal Flourishing, edited by Marlena Graves and her husband Sean Graves. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. This has been really amazing.
Speaker 2 00:56:13 Yeah, thank you too. I've been, uh, I've been blessed.
Speaker 1 00:56:16 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast
Speaker 3 00:56:22 Production by Seth bti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at. That makes total sense.com.
