Episode 173 - Kelly Flanagan

Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Bassetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Speaker 2 00:00:42 Hey everybody. I am like beyond excited. I'm already emotional. I don't know. Kelly, is this because you're a psychologist? Do you just bring out the emotions, <laugh> in people, they just sit in front of you and just start crying, <laugh>, is this what happens? Speaker 3 00:00:58 Um, I think, uh, with my writing, at least when I try to write like a psychologist, that doesn't happen. But when I try to tap into what is human, you know, which I've learned from my clients and learned from myself, then it tends to bring out the emotion. Yeah. <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:01:14 Yeah. Well, I, I've already told 'em I'm mad at him. First time I introduce them and then I'll tell you why I'm mad at him. Our guest, I don't usually start off that way, um, by, no worries, by picking a beef on online, but here we go. Here we go. Um, Kelly Flanigan is my guest today. We chatted last year. We decided it'd been over a year since we chatted, um, about your previous book, true Companions, which was, I read it by the pool. It was not necessarily a pool read, but it was a fantastic read. I mean, that was one I have said I would revisit and I haven't, but now I'm reminded that I need to because it was so powerful and meaningful about relationships and, and how we walk through things together as community. It was wonderful. And then you've read a novel. Speaker 3 00:01:57 Hmm? Yeah. I have <laugh>. I have <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:02:00 You read a novel, it's called The Un Hiding of Elijah Campbell. I don't read novels. I don't read fiction very often. Yeah. And so I, you know, was like, saw this come through my email. I was like, hands up. I wanna talk to Kelly again. For sure. It was a blast. And then I've gotta be honest, I, I like to push send to your publicist, and then I was like, what have I done Speaker 3 00:02:27 <laugh>? I'm so glad you did it, <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:02:30 I'm like, I have never, I mean, I've been in, you know, book clubs right? And stuff like that, like way back in the day. But I'm like, I have never recorded a podcast conversation with an author who has written a novel. And I was, I was nervous about that, but I'll be real, I was also nervous because I wasn't sure what my experience was gonna be like, reading a Christian novel, Speaker 3 00:02:53 Right. <laugh> a and <laugh>. And Speaker 2 00:02:57 That goes to why I'm mad mad at you. Cause I, um, spent the morning with my regular drink at my regular coffee shop, lifting up my glasses and wiping my tears as I finish like the last, it was like 80 or a hundred pages of your book. Um, it was beautiful. It was real. It felt raw and human in a, in, in, in a lot of places. Um, and it was suspenseful. Yeah. Thank you. I, I, I turned every, I mean, every page I felt like I couldn't turn fast enough. I was irritated when I got interrupted. Um, yeah. I, I needed to know what was going to happen with Elijah. Speaker 3 00:03:46 That is music to an author's ears. Lemme tell you, <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:03:49 He became my friend. Right. I, I wanted to, I wanted to know what was gonna happen, um, to Elijah in this book. So thank you. Thank you for writing it and thank you for putting it out there. And thank you for coming on to talk to me about it Speaker 3 00:04:02 Today. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you for all of that. And, um, and until just a couple of weeks ago, I had never been a guest on a podcast where I was talking about a novel I had written either. So this is really pretty new to me too. So we'll like, sort of co-create this together. That's Speaker 2 00:04:17 Right. That's right. We'll go together. So, um, before I get into my first like, question, I think will, that'll kind of kick us off into what I, I think promises to be a really wonderful conversation. Um, I just wanna kind of say just like the general, you know, like when my husband asked me like, what's it about? I gave him like the one line, which is probably gonna irk you, but I'm just gonna say it so that we're kind of on the same page. Yeah. I just said it's, it's about a man who's a, a family man who has a successful career, who's going through a midlife crisis. Speaker 3 00:04:47 Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. Speaker 2 00:04:49 Yeah. So this is, this is kind of the one sentence, you know, back of the book. If you, if you kind of wanna know who Elijah Campbell is Sure. On this surface, <laugh>, I love that. Cuz Interior hears so much more. But on the surface, he's a successful, you know, writer. He's a family man and he's going through a midlife crisis. Um, and so yeah, so that's just kind of where we are so that people who haven't yet picked up a copy of the book right. Will kind of know where we're starting from and there's lots of themes that we'll get into later. But since you already opened the door and said, this is the first time you've come on. Yeah. You know, you know, in this, in this season is the first time you've talked about a novel that you've written cuz you're a psychologist, you write non-fiction books, you're a Christian psychologist. So I mean, where, Speaker 3 00:05:40 Where, where did this come from? Speaker 2 00:05:42 Where did this come from? <laugh>, I'm glad it came out, but where did, where did this come from in all of that? Speaker 3 00:05:47 So, you know, it's interesting that you talk, I mean, I think you, you, you put your finger on it really well. Um, it's about a family man successful writing career who's having a, a midlife crisis. And, um, and then the question at the heart of the book is, how do you turn a midlife crisis into a midlife awakening? And it doesn't come easy. Uh, it doesn't happen by staying on the surface of things on the surface of your life or yourself. And, and so the, the hope that emerged in this was to portray what it really looks like, like really what it takes, what it costs and the rewards of having a true midlife awakening, which I think we all are longing for. And by midlife, I don't necessarily mean like, you know, 42 years old or whatever, even though he happens to be 39. Speaker 3 00:06:32 But that, that moment in your life, and I describe it as the midlife moment where you realize everything that's gotten you here isn't working anymore. Right. All the stuff that worked to get you here isn't working anymore. And, uh, and so I was actually, uh, in a situation where I had a two book contract with Varsity Press. True Companions was the first one, but the contract said you have to pitch a second book before True Companions comes out. So, uh, this would've been summer of 2022, no, some summer. That's the one we just passed. Summer of 2020, um, middle of Covid. I had a broken collarbone going over the handlebars in my bike, um, and, uh, on the phone with my agent. And she says, so what do you, what do you got, Kelly? What's your idea for your next non-fiction book? And I said, well, I'm sort of, I've got this image of a bridge and it's this sort of broken down bridge in the middle of our life. Speaker 3 00:07:32 And to get to more graceful ground, we have to cross that bridge. But it's sort of scary and uncertain. So what most of us do is we keep sort of treading the same ground we've been on, right? And that's how we create a midlife crisis is, well, I thought money was going to get me where I wanted to go, and it hasn't, so just make more money and maybe that'll do the trick. Or I thought my relationships were gonna perfectly fulfill me and they haven't. So, you know, divorce this one and marry a different one. That's how we create crises is by just more of the same. And I wanna sort of write a book about crossing that bridge. And here's my idea is that the be attitudes could sort of serve as the guides across that bridge. They're, they're the sort of the teaching that helps us find more graceful ground. Speaker 3 00:08:17 And, uh, and she said, uh, and this is a critical moment. That's why I dedicated the book to Cathy. She said, well, what if the be attitudes were actually people? Like, what if you personified the Be attitudes, it's guides who walk you across that bridge? And I said, Cathy, that's crazy. It's a non-fiction book, <laugh>. And she said, and she always says, we'll just sit with it for a month. Cause we have a monthly call on the book. Sit with it for a month and we'll see what you think. And, uh, and so I sat with it for a month and I thought, well, one way I could really kind of retain the non-fiction element of this is if each of those be attitudes were represented by a lost loved one from my life, um, who I'm in conversation with in the context of the pages. Speaker 3 00:08:57 Um, and those lost loved ones help walk me through to more graceful ground in my life. Um, and so we pitched that idea to Inner University Press and they came back and said, we think it would work better as fiction <laugh>, great concept, but we like it as fiction. Um, in my whole life, I'd, I mean, I've dreamt of writing a book since I read my first one, you know, and so naturally I was like scared to death <laugh>. And I was like, I, I should say I dreamt of writing a novel since I read my first one. And, and so my first reaction to anniversary press was like, Nope, I'm not interested. Um, I'm gonna repitch this to you as a nonfiction so you'll understand. And then they came back again and said they thought it would work better as fiction. And once again, Kathy said, take a month with it and see what you think. And, and that month turned into the un hiding of Elijah Campbell. I mean, it took me about six months to write, but that first month is where, where the, the novel really sort of arrived. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:09:51 Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Now, I mean, did it, now I feel like a, a naive reader. I'm like, oh, no. Did it pan out that way? Am I supposed to know which characters were <laugh> people were went to the book? Speaker 3 00:10:04 That's, so that's a great question because what's interesting about it is I learned that with writing non-fiction, you really have to see the whole book for the most part at the start. But with fiction, you can't do that because you create characters and put them in situations and they start to do things that they're not supposed to <laugh> if it's gonna be any good. Right. Um, which is a total thrill. It was a, it was a, a spiritual practice of letting go of control for me, the author. But, um, so what you will notice, and I think we can say this without, we're gonna try to avoid any spoilers today. Speaker 2 00:10:38 We're gonna both try Speaker 3 00:10:40 <laugh>, we're both gonna try. But his first conversation with his grandmother, if you'll notice, is the conversation with blessed or the poor spirit. That poorness of spirit is the bridge that takes us from superficial happiness to deep joy and a biting joy. And then the second conversation with his grandfather is, uh, blessed with those who mourn. Um, and he, I think, I think in that one, it's, uh, grief is what takes us from clinging to safety, to being able to abide in a sense of resilience. Um, and so all was going as planned <laugh> up until that point. He's having his conversations with the be attitudes and, uh, and right around that time, I, I showed the manuscript to Kathy, and once again, this is why I dedicated it to her, her hands all over it. She said, um, this is becoming more than you originally planned. Speaker 3 00:11:28 Um, these characters are real now. I want to know what they're going to do. Yes. And, and you need to write as if you want to know what they're going to do. Ah, not, not that, you know. Right. Ah, and, uh, and sure enough Wise Woman, Eve, wise woman, oh my goodness, I'm so blessed by her. And, and, and sure enough, in the very next scene without spoiling anything, I'd just written a scene where Elijah, uh, comes out of recalling one of his core childhood wounds. And I had it planned that he was gonna go talk to the next grandparent and he wouldn't go. Like, he literally was like, no, uh, I, I'm not gonna come out of what I just experienced and go have a chat with another grand. Like, that's not, I need to take time. I need to process, I need to lick my wounds. Speaker 3 00:12:18 And in the next scene he ends up in a local park having a memory of being there before. And that's when the book sort of, you know, some of the themes of the book started to really emerge. Like, you can't, if you can't speak it, you can't transform it. You know, if you can't unhi it, you can't heal it. Uh, these sorts of things. So, um, so that, that was, you can hear me getting excited because that was the moment where I feel like I became a novelist and I can't go back. I just, it was such a thrill, <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:12:45 Well, I'm telling you that I'm, I'm recalling reading and this Yes, I recall the both of those first two conversations and then probably in that space where you just said, this is where it picked up. And Elijah wouldn't go, you know, I thought, well that's right, because Elijah has a mind of his own. Why are you trying to <laugh>? Speaker 3 00:13:06 That's right. Why Speaker 2 00:13:07 Are you trying to push him to do something? That's Speaker 3 00:13:09 Right. But Speaker 2 00:13:10 He doesn't wanna do, you know, like, it's, it's, uh, yeah. Cuz his character became, um, became so real to me. And I think because of, I, but I will, I will tell you this, there are a lot of, there are a lot of scary moments in the book. Mm, yes. Um, Elijah as a character, um, you know, he walks through a lot of these like, like you've alluded to, to, to some wounding from his past and these memories. Um, but even in his present and in his uncertain future, um, there, yes, that created a lot of feelings of fear for me, for Elijah. Right? Like, I'm, I'm feeling kind of afraid for him. Um, if I can pull myself out of the novel for a second, I will tell you one of the things as a reader that this, that this did for me, going through this story as you're describing it, was I often, because you and I had spoken before and I had read True Companions, I often went back in my mind just for a second, just for a touch base, to remind myself that you wrote this because, um, because it felt very uncertain. Speaker 2 00:14:22 And even some of the, some of the advice he was given or some of the, the conclusions he came to sometimes felt very uncertain. But as I was reading it, it's hard for me to describe it. I felt safe knowing the mind that it came from, if that makes sense at all. So, you know, I was kind of like, I'm not even, I'm not, I'm not going through this as someone who like is unaware or someone who's just kind of guessing and throwing something out there. Right? I'm like, this is, is this is an educated believing practitioner who, you know, has a track record. And it's not that, I'm not saying you're perfect in your career, but I'm just saying like, like I felt like these, this wisdom that I was receiving along with Elijah, right at this similar time, I'm only a couple of years older than him, um, you know, that I was receiving some of this wisdom and I had to kind of look back cuz it in those uncertain spaces when I was, when I reminded myself who the author was, it felt safe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 3 00:15:22 Thank you for that. I mean, it's received that as a wonderful compliment. And uh, it, it reminds me of, um, I was watching the movie Soul by, uh, Disney Pixar. Yep. And the first time through it, I could not enjoy it at all cuz I was like, if they don't land this right <laugh>, this is a disastrous message for an entire generation of young people. And they landed it so well and I was like, okay, now I can go back and read it. Relaxed and, you know, so what a compliment that you trusted, you trusted me throughout that I was gonna land. Okay. Speaker 2 00:15:55 <laugh> I did. But I had, but I had to go back to that. I mean, honestly, cuz like I said, I don't read a ton of fiction. And so, um, a lot of it for me was, I that's, that's me as a personality. Like, I had some, sometimes kinda some issues letting, letting go and just letting my imagination, you know, and all of this stuff. And, and Elijah is dealing with some very difficult situations. Yes. I mean, he's dealing with tragedy, he's dealing with, um, I mean, wounding like, kind of covers it, right? Like he's, he's dealing with, so he's dealing with a lot of trauma, um, and his life and, um, and it felt difficult to, to kind of walk, you know, with his character through the book. Um, one place, I, you've already mentioned a couple of themes that were articulated really well and I wanna come back to those. Speaker 2 00:16:46 But one thing that I jotted down that, um, felt really prominent in the first part of the book, and I think a lot of people listening to this could resonate, would resonate with this as well. Um, when Elijah is struggling to hear God. Yes. And there's a, there's, um, a a, a place where, I don't remember, I don't remember who says it, but the idea comes across that trauma has a way of silencing the voice Yes. Of God. Yeah. And Elijah, I don't think he's put it all together at that point. Like, what's he hasn't happening and what's, what's going on in his mind? Um, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna toss that ball to you right. As the psychologist and say that really, that was something that, that stood out to me. And that is a, that is a theme throughout the book. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what does that have to do? You can answer it however you want, but like, what does that have to do with our midlife crisis slash awakening? What is, you know, how many people, people are affected by this right now? It's a really, you know, a lot of seems like great trauma study is coming, you know, we're learning more and more about these things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't know, take that somewhere, which <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:17:59 Yeah. I'll see what I can do <laugh>. See what I can do here Speaker 2 00:18:02 On Kelly, I've some something at you. I don't know what to do with it. Like Speaker 3 00:18:06 I said, I'm new, I'm new at this kind of thing, and, and that's the first time someone's asked me about that part of the book. But I really appreciate it. Um, so, uh, the, the idea in, in the book around the Silence of God is that we can basically trust that God is never silent. Um, that a dark night of the soul is not God, being coy and sort of testing us to see if we can handle his silence. Um, but a dark night of the soul is, uh, a season in which we are for whatever reason not tuned into the same wave length as God, so to speak. And, and so, uh, father Lou in the book, sort of the spiritual anchor of the book says, uh, you know, when you can't hear God, it's not, cuz God isn't kind of speaking, it's cuz he's waiting to have a new conversation, a different kind of conversation. Speaker 3 00:19:01 Right. And this sort of sends Elijah on his journey of finding places in his hometown that he can really feel a sense of, um, uh, almost like a sense of time folding in on itself and, and a reconnection with his people in that space. And, uh, and so, um, so that that begins to stimulate in him a reconnection with the voice of God in him in this sort of creative, uh, very rooted, tangible sort of way in, in the town. Um, yet in the story he discovers that there's places in the town that are connected to experiences he once have that are so traumatic that he just loses all of his flexibility to have a new conversation. Right. Which is really what, what trauma is. It's a loss of flexibility of mental and emotional flexibility. It's, I'm rooted in a past event and have an inability to experience the present apart from that event. Speaker 3 00:20:00 Um, it's, uh, normally I could sort of work with my fear and find other ways to perceive or experience or evaluate a situation. But in trauma, for instance, I can't, I, I can only feel the fear, um, reality seems permanently sort of stuck in this space. Um, and so, so I think that's part of what the story is illustrating in that part of the story is, um, trauma has a way of sort of, uh, costing us our emotional, spiritual and, and, uh, and psychological flexibility. And it takes a lot of work to get it back. But we can, we can, it just takes an awful lot of work to do it. And, and much of the rest of the story is the work that it takes to get, get that flexibility back. Speaker 2 00:20:49 All right. I might have to have you slow down cuz I didn't know I was gonna take as many notes today as I Speaker 3 00:20:54 <laugh> Sure. Speaker 2 00:20:56 <laugh> as I'm, it, it happens on occasion. I've learned that it happens on occasion. I come in usually with like a half a page of notes, and then there are certain conversations that I end up taking another half a page. And so Right. You know, if I have to flip through it, um, sorry, but man, that's Wow, that's really good in that, um, you know, like I had told you before we hit record that I, you know, now I'm like, I want to want to read more fiction because I have all these images, you know, of Elijah's town and, and, and, and places in my head. Um, and I'm imagining some of those places as you're explaining that. Right. But that is a, that's an amazing word. Picture that loss of flexibility. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he can't have a new conversation mm-hmm. Speaker 3 00:21:38 <affirmative> not by himself. Speaker 2 00:21:39 No. No. Um, and Father Lou, the spiritual anchor of the book, I'm like, I, I want a father Lou, you know, in my life. Right. It makes me, it makes me think like, training to be a pastor makes me think, well, maybe if I don't have a father, Lou, maybe I could, maybe I could be a little miniature Father Lou, you know, to, to somebody, you know. Yeah. Um, moving forward because he is, um, because he Elijah needs the stability. Right. But also the challenge I think that Dr. Lou, um, provides for him, and I'm gonna stop there so I don't go into my crying this morning at the coffee shop with the end of Dr. Lou. Right. All of that. Um, but there's the trauma, you also talked about, um, the hiding, um, before and, and the, of course the book is called The Un Hiding. Speaker 2 00:22:30 Um, but I have that on my notes right before I have the self-preservation. Mm. Yeah. Right. And, and that theme, if you can elaborate kind of on, on that theme, that was a, that was a, a real prominent one for me. Especially in your, you know, middle and end of the book, that idea of self-preservation and how it's, you know, there are characters who say, well, this is actually helpful, Elijah, and then he realizes that it's the way he's been living it. Absolutely. It's actually not helpful. Yes. So what is that in, what is that in us and how can we, you know, steward that? Speaker 3 00:23:12 Yeah. So, you know, there's this point, um, and it doesn't happen, it happens somewhere relatively early, I think, in our childhoods. Um, where, and you know, this is something I I wrote about in Lovable quite extensively. There's this point where, you know, a kid, a kid sort of takes it for granted that they're worthy of love and belonging the way that they are. Like, they don't, they don't come into the world questioning that. Um, and at some point, each one of us experiences this thing called shame, which is the message that you're not good enough for love and belonging the way that you are. You're going to, um, if, if you keep showing up in the world the way that you are, you're gonna keep getting rejected. You're gonna keep getting hurt, you're gonna keep collecting pain. And so one of the ways I often describe shame is, is, is the instinct to hide. Speaker 3 00:24:05 It's that, that's what shame is. It's, oh, what I am, if it keeps showing up is just going to collect pain. So I need to hide who I am. So most of, um, and, and I think hiding is the first, the first method of self-preservation that most young people go through, right? So it's usually starting sometime in, you know, mid elementary school at the latest. And so most of life, um, most of the progression out of childhood and into adulthood is a progression into hiding of some sort or another. And, and so much of healing is about simply un hiding, learning to show up as yourself, trusting that you are worthy enough to show up in the world that the pain you collect as an authentic vulnerable human being isn't telling the truth about you. It's telling the truth about those who are hurting you more than you. Speaker 3 00:24:55 Um, and, uh, and so that this is the, but, but very few of us even know we're hiding <laugh>. Like Elijah doesn't know really. Right. He's not calling it hiding. He's calling it love. He's saying, oh, I put these things away and I don't show them to you because I wanna love you and I want the best life for you. And I don't, you know, and so I think one of the things that I hear from, from readers coming out of this book is, we hide because we're ashamed and then we feel ashamed of the ways that we hide, which is just going to promote more hiding. And the way that this book is breaking that cycle is people going, oh, I hide. And I'm not ashamed of it anymore. I read Elijah's story, I understood why he, he hides, I can understand why I hide and I can start, I can stop doing that. I can break that cycle now. Um, because the shame about the hiding is broken in the reading of the story, which to me is like, oh, like it's all I could hope for. Speaker 2 00:25:53 It's huge. It's huge. I mean, it's, it's, it's huge. And, and like I said, this was, I was, um, okay talking about shame. I was, I, I was, I felt freed and slightly embarrassed as I was reading this book because, um, you know, and there's been a lot of talk, especially in the last several years, I think at least, that I've been keened into about, you know, how a powerful story is, right? Yeah. And I mean, this isn't, this isn't a real life story. It is. Um, but it's, but it's about a fictional character mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I just kept thinking about, um, how I was, I am praying that the, that the power of Elijah's story would, would follow me and would lead me. And that this was different than reading like another kind of, you know, Christian, you know, self-help or psychology or you know, whatever. Speaker 2 00:26:53 And all of those things are helpful and you've written some great books like that. Right. But that this is, but that, but that we kind of feel the reader kind of feels what Elijah's feeling. It's what you said, like, oh, that's what that's called <laugh>. Yes. He's been, he's been hiding. And, and if, you know, and there's a little courage in that too, to, to recognize that and to come out and say, oh, I don't have to hide in that way. Or maybe, you know, maybe I, maybe I call it love like Elijah or maybe I call it something different, but it really is the hiding that you're talking about. It really is the shame that you're talking about. And I think it releases, I don't know, part of what I felt in Elijah was that it releases, um, other people from that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Absolutely. And so part of what you're talking about in his, in some of his major relationships, he kind of has this expectation that that's what they expect of him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is to do this, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> when if he had been unden, if he had been honest with himself, it would've opened up that dialogue for the people in his life, to be honest with him. And, and could have actually served as a catalyst for his un hiding instead of him keeping it. Yes, absolutely. And, and, and it served as a catalyst to him continuing to Speaker 3 00:28:14 Well, and I think that's, I think that's where you go, you know, as you point out the self preservation and the hiding sort of together in your notes is, um, he's, the question for all of us is, are we, are we gonna get, are, are we gonna be able to arrive at the point where we recognize that that thing we do is, is really a self-protective mechanism that is now backfiring, right? Like if, if I'm, if I'm hiding cuz I don't want to be hurt, but the excess loneliness I'm creating through that hiding, um, for myself is excess hurt. And then the disconnection that's creating in all of my relationships is hurt for them. So I'm actually like, I'm now back, it's backfiring the thing that I tried to do to, to, to minimize the hurt for everybody. And can we realize that and recognize that and start to do something new? Speaker 3 00:29:04 And that's the question mark and what's it gonna take for us? You know, like, I think that was one of the more compelling, like what is it gonna take for me as the author to really finally start to change some of those, those methods of self protection. I hope it doesn't take what it took for Elijah. Right. You know, um, and that, that to me is one of the great hopes for the book too, is that in, in watching Elijah go through it, the reader can go, I think I'd like to change some of the things I'm doing before I get to that point. <laugh> Yes. You know, like, we get to, we get to benefit from his story that Speaker 2 00:29:38 Way, but before he gets to lots of different points Right. In the yes. In the story, but yes, ab absolutely, but you can, but I think in that, so, so kind of to your point in that we can see that yes, amen. There is hope for us to change it before we get to the point of Elijah. And it also helps it, I don't know, I think it helped me a little bit with, I don't know, to say the gravity might be the, might be the wrong picture I wanna paint, but it kind of helped me to say, well, a, this is human and you know, kind of normal, but also B, like it really is damaging, you know, even if I'm not to the point of Elijah, this really isn't, it's not promoting health for me. Right. It's not promoting health in my relationships just because I don't look like Elijah did that doesn't mean that it's the, that it's the most healthy thing I can be doing. Speaker 3 00:30:35 Well and, and, and to take that word damaging because, you know, our shame could do all sorts of word or things with that. And to say simply like the, some of the most common damage is to prevent the thriving of our belonging with each other, which is what we're here for, right? We are here wired to long for belonging to cultivate it, create it through our authenticity and connection. And so, um, the, the great harm is the lack of flourishing of our belonging. And, um, and, and hopefully what starts to emerge, you know, in this book is an image of what, what belonging is possible if we could start to undo some of those patterns. Speaker 2 00:31:14 Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's really good. Um, something that I'm, that I'm kind of hoping you can touch on without kind of the a spoiler alert, um, is that Elijah has an interesting, he discovers, I think that he has had an interesting relationship with loyalty Speaker 2 00:31:41 And that felt, um, profound to me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, as I read through that it also felt a little bit, I won't, I don't wanna say confusing, but I think it felt a little bit kind of big for me in, in part because, um, you know, there's a toss up on the Enneagram of what I most identify with <laugh>. But <laugh>, if I kinda lean into this six part, you know, I mean the, the loyalty, right? I mean, I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a six and we, we joked like, we, we will not only go down with the ship, right? Like, I mean, it's like that's even too soon for us to jump. Right? It's not that, I mean it's, it's this, this like, and, and, and I think it can be almost a sense of, of pride for people like me who are loyal to the very end, right. Of like this, but this is where we stand and this, this says something about our character, you know, that we have this loyalty and then I see Elijah having this complicated relationship with loyalty. Yes. Yeah. And it got me to think about this in ways that I hadn't thought about it before. So I'm trying really hard not to just say what I wanna say. So's isn't Speaker 3 00:32:57 It <laugh>? I know Speaker 2 00:32:59 About this. Um, but maybe you can talk, maybe you can speak to that idea a little bit. Speaker 3 00:33:04 Well, and and my response to that, it's hard to, uh, withhold as well cuz that senior describing, um, was probably my favorite scene in the whole book to write. Cuz it was the most, it was the biggest surprise to me. I knew that Elijah had enlisted some help to have a conversation with a loved one from his past and he needed that help cuz there was trauma connected to it. And, and so they were gonna sort of role play this conversation instead of having it be in his imagination. And what, I didn't know anything else about that conversation. I didn't know how it was gonna go and I sat down to write it and by the end of it I felt, um, raw Yeah. About what had happened and, um, and that something true had been said there that I was still trying to understand. Speaker 3 00:33:48 And, and I think it's this idea that, um, cuz you're right, like loyalty is like the best of things we just said belonging, right? Like, is there any, I mean, loyalty is belonging at its best in a sense, you know, um, the thing that I think is being wrestled with in that scene is, um, I mean, we could say what are the costs of loyalty? Um, and not in a selfish way, but in a, uh, in a way that's related to our own authenticity and showing up and growth and transformation. So for instance, like if, um, if, if one of your, if one of your kids' friends asked them to use drugs and said, Hey, you're a loyal friend, right? We don't tell anybody about this. All of a sudden loyalty, <laugh> doesn't feel as like the highest value in that situation, right? Um, and so that's, I think what Elijah starts to wrestle with is he was equating loyalty at any cost, at the cost of every other value, right? Speaker 3 00:34:51 At the cost of every other moral and ethic, um, above and beyond all of those. He was equating that to love. And, uh, and, and, and that was the reason he wasn't ever allowed to question that. That if you will, if you question loyalty at the cost of everything else, then you're not loving me. Right? And, um, and so it just sort of opens up some complicated questions about the, the, the dividing line between loyalty and, um, blind, um, allegiance, I guess maybe would be a way of saying it. And, uh, and the complicated emotional work it takes to, to sort of discern that and, and free oneself from blind allegiance. Speaker 2 00:35:35 Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Thanks for, thanks for touching on that, that yeah, that one, it felt, um, yeah, it felt really big for me too. And even as I continued throughout the rest of the book, just kind of thinking about that and that particular relationship that he was, um, you know, trying to resolve some things was, was helpful. Speaker 3 00:35:54 Well, and maybe you'd like to boil it down to a really practical level. Um, you know, if you're feeling an not an obligation, if you're feeling a call, a loyalty to someone and, and you're, you share a secret, the two of you, you could say to that person, if I share that secret with somebody, if I, if I own my truth and share that with somebody, will you still be loyal to me? And all of a sudden you might discover, oh, the loyalty's only going one way here. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, and, and so there's, yeah. Loyalty is a complicated relational dynamic for sure. It is that Elijah gets faced with. It Speaker 2 00:36:34 Is. Yeah. And I, that was one that I just, I hadn't, you know, anticipated kind of coming across that as I, as I read that because yeah, that scene was, was, um, you know, particularly like kind of graphic in my mind for me. Sure. I'm like, what? Be like, you know, that, that actually, that actually just happened. Um, I think I'm gonna ask maybe one last thematic question, and then I really wanna let you take it for sure wherever you wanna take it. Um, it's, it, it can feel like the other side of the coin of loyalty in some ways. Um, but there, I wish I had, wish I had written down the quote, but I knew I was going to try to not do this like a book club, but there was a line about, um, about surrender, um, and you know, about surrender kind of Oh yeah. Being, being kind of, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm being binary here on purpose, like kind of being good or bad depending upon who or what you're surrendering to, Speaker 3 00:37:36 Right? Yes. Speaker 2 00:37:37 And how that, I mean, how that plays out in Elijah's life, but also how it, I think how it plays out in, in all of our, I I feel like it's, it's, it's almost the, not the difference, but it's a, it's a huge difference between, um, a crisis and an awakening Speaker 3 00:37:54 <laugh>. Absolutely. That, boy, that's a, that's a really nice connection you made, I think, um, that it is the difference between a cri Yeah. And a crisis. You're refusing to surrender the habits, the things that you've been doing, the whole worldview that says, these things should be working to get me where I wanna go. Right? And, um, and if those things aren't totally true, then actually surrendering them is a good thing and surrenders beautiful thing. Mm. Yeah. I I'm right there with you. Um, you know, I don't, I'm not sure if we talked about it last time, but I, I can't help but see every human being as this complicated mixture of their true self, their soul as they were created in God's image, and then the false self or ego that they built around that soul to protect it, you know, which we've sort of been talking about in different ways today already. Um, the ego, this protective self preserving sort of persona that we've, we've created, it doesn't speak the language of surrender <laugh>. Like, it just doesn't to it, it doesn't know how, it doesn't understand why anyone would ever surrender, Speaker 2 00:38:56 Don't burst my bubble Kelly <laugh>. Speaker 3 00:38:59 Well, you're talkings Mr. Competitive himself. So I, um, I mean much of my life is trying to figure out how to do that. And, um, and so, but when they, so a lot of times surrender doesn't even feel good because it's the ego dying in the midst of the surrender, right? So surrendering to something good can even feel bad if, if, if the ego is what's having to sort of die away in order for that to happen. Um, you know, lose your life for my sake, in order to find it. You could substitute ego for life, lose your ego for me in order to find your true self. Like, that doesn't feel good to the ego. And, um, and so surrender too <laugh> ends up a complicated experience in a lot of ways. Speaker 2 00:39:46 Yeah. I mean, for sure. Um, I feel like Speaker 3 00:39:53 Your driving things down, again, Speaker 2 00:39:56 I am <laugh>, I'm gonna grab my pin. Um, I am, I'm like, I'm like, feel like I'm kind of, I'm kind of done like picking your brain, but only because I really want you to be able to, uh, share more of the things that were really meaningful for you. The truth is, I could sit here and have a conversation with you all day about this book, and it might even, I I would do it with the microphone off so I didn't have to worry about the spoilers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you, you named a couple of themes, uh, at the beginning of our conversation that I would love it if you went back to one was about un hiding and what was the other one? Speaker 3 00:40:32 Yeah. Um, well there's the, there's that first sentence of the, of the book, the past is, you know, always Mmm. Behind us, but it is also always within us. Yes. And this question of can you really let go of your past or do you need to learn how to do something different with it? Um, so I think that's, and actually the, if there's a refrain in the book, it's that sentence that is probably used half a dozen times in the book. So that's a significant theme of the book. Um, and, uh, yeah, so I, I have a thought, I guess, um, would be what if I read the prologue? Um, yeah, just, just read it. Speaker 2 00:41:09 Absolutely. Speaker 3 00:41:10 And that wouldn't spoil anything Speaker 2 00:41:12 For anybody, right? That's right. That's right. Speaker 3 00:41:13 Yep. Um, and it could give folks more of a sense of what we're talking about when we talk about the past being behind us and all these themes that we've been discussing in the book. And then maybe we could unpack that, that concept of the past go. Speaker 2 00:41:24 I'd be honored. That'd be great. Okay. Speaker 3 00:41:25 Um, I'm gonna have to scoot away to grab my copy of my book here. All right. Um, so I think this should take about two minutes listeners. Um, give me a minute and I think you'll be hooked. <laugh>. Um, the past is behind us, but it is also always within us, which means the past can feel dead and gone one moment, and then in the next it can be very much living and breathing. And here my past came back to life in the form of a nightmare I hadn't dreamed in over 30 years when I was a child. The nightmare always began the same way with me standing at a river's edge, watching it rush by brownly opaque with mud, swollen with storm debris and foam me with turmoil. It was the kind of cataclysmic river in which a kid could disappear without warning carried downstream to rot in some unpredictable destination. Speaker 3 00:42:13 An old wooden bridge spanned the river, though had probably been a feat of humankind at its creation. As glory days were clearly behind it, the railings were gone. Most of the walkway had been torn away by storms long forgotten. The remaining planks were rotted and loose and spaced out, some resting where they were originally placed some resting at angles. Large gaps in the walkway revealed the roiling waters just a few yards below it, beyond the bridge. The other side of the river was always cloaked in fog. I had no idea what the fog hid. And yet with the kind of certainty that can only be called faith, the kind of anticipation that can only be called hope and the kind of longing that can only be called love, I wanted to find out. So I looked down, preparing to take my first step, and I'd see on my feet a pair of worn out blue sneakers with yellow trim. Speaker 3 00:42:58 They were so dirty, the yellow looked almost brown, and the blue looked almost black. The shoe on my right foot had a hole at the front of it. And my big toe protruded covered by a dusty sock every night. The dream seemed to contain all its previous renditions. So I knew exactly how it was going to end. I knew I would step out onto the bridge and the water would rise and it would be impossible to escape it. And as it reached me, I would silently scream myself awake. However, I also knew I'd step out onto the bridge anyway, yearning so much for the opposite shore that I was willing to endure the familiar terror at least one more time. Sometime around middle school, the dreams seemed to die. I went to sleep one night and it didn't go with me. Weeks passed, no nightmare. Speaker 3 00:43:39 Then months past then years. And somewhere along the way I forgot about that old nightmare altogether. It turns out though it hadn't died, it had simply gone dormant. Or maybe it had died. And almost three decades later, on the cusp of my 40th birthday, it was resurrected. I don't think the future is ever predetermined, but I do think our futures are eventually determined by what we do at these moments of resurrection, especially when such moments cluster together, forming a sort of bridge in the middle of our life. One, we may cross to new ground, or one we may turn back from retreading the ground from which we came. My bridge was made of that old nightmare. It was also made of a secret. I cut from everyone so long. I eventually began to keep it from myself. And a secret that was kept from me for so long, I never knew it existed. Speaker 3 00:44:23 My bridge is made of a bunch of lost loved ones who came to life again within the magic of memory and the mystery of imagination. It was made of a, a God I once loved who went silent. And then one day started speaking to me again through those beloved ghosts of mine in the Bible. Jesus dies on a Friday, and there's a lot of talk about that then. He is resurrected on a Sunday. And there's even more talk about that. No one talks much about Saturday, though death and resurrection. No one talks much about the, and that bridges the two. Sometimes though, all of life can begin to feel like an and every day can start to feel like the Saturday between what happened to you and what you will or will not do with it. And once you recognize your bridge for what it is, you have to decide whether you'll cross it with no guarantees of surviving the passage, just the nearest of hopes that it will deliver you to more graceful ground. It took me a long time to recognize my aunt. My Saturday, my bridge for what? It was too long. It began with a leg in my lap more than a decade before the nightmare resumed. My name is Elijah Campbell, and this is the story of my un hiding. Speaker 3 00:45:28 So if you wanna read it again, <laugh>. Okay. Um, so sort of core to the book there right at the beginning, right? Is this idea that, you know, and I guess it's the line of work I've been in forever, is, uh, we we all want to be able to put our past behind us and go, and even some of us just think it's so silly. I, I remember going to my first counseling appointment and going, how silly, what a luxury to go to an appointment, talk about my past and complain. You know? And so we're all trying to put it behind us. Um, but we can't, like that's, that's the, you know, that's the fly in the ointment. We can't, it's, it's also within us. Everywhere we go, we carry our past, past forward with us. And, uh, one of the, the members of our online book club this summer, um, she just summarized it so beautifully. Speaker 3 00:46:18 She said, I read this book and, and I realized my whole life I've been trying to let go of my past. But you can't let go of your past. However you can learn to dialogue with it in a way that is healing and redemptive and changes what's happening now and changes your future because of the transformation that takes place in that. So, um, you know, that's, I think one of my big hopes for the book is that, um, we will, as people quit sort of, I don't wanna use the word waste, that's judgemental. Cause I think we all have to try it. You know, you have to try to let go of your past, eventually discover you can't. But I hope we can get to that point more quickly where we realize our past is with us. Um, and in these days when I work with folks, I, I tell them, you know, that moment in any interaction, in any situation where you feel like this tightening in your chest or like a pit in your stomach or, you know, tension in your shoulders, and you just, all that is actually that tightening is your teacher. Speaker 3 00:47:17 It's telling you that your past is actually kind of surfacing into this moment and saying, Hey, I don't wanna go through that again. I know how this feels. It's not, I'm not gonna like this. I don't wanna experience it again. And so your past is literally rising up into that moment. And it can become a moment of additional self-protection, or it can become a moment in which you get more acquainted with your past and decide what you're gonna do with it differently. So that tightening moment is really a powerful sort of like red flag to say, Hey, all the growth, all the transformation, all the healing that's gonna happen right here. And it can happen. I mean, as, you know, talking to your husband or trying to parent your kids or, you know, running into a stranger the super, it can happen anywhere. Um, and so, um, I get excited about people repurposing that moment for healing rather than more protection. Speaker 2 00:48:04 Yeah. No, that's, that's really good. Um, to be like, kind of more vulnerable than I had been prepared to be this morning when I was leaving the coffee shop, um, I got back into my car and I noticed, you know, some people have like little, um, you know, beanie babies or little stuffed animals on their dashes or whatever. And so I was, I was getting into my vehicle with all of my stuff with me, you know, and Sure. And, um, trying to crawl in. And the car next to me had a little, one of these little animals and it immediately brought up something, you know, a memory from my past. Yeah. Which was, you know, wild. I just finished this book. But what was interesting is that, and I think this kind of, this goes to, to where I, I I, I'd love for you to take us, if you will, but, you know, we started off by saying a lot of, um, Elijah's interactions are with loved ones who have gone on. Speaker 2 00:48:56 Right. They're, they're with loved ones who have passed away. Um, but part of the suspense for me was that Elijah has relationships with people who are still living, but they, those relationships don't look like what he would want them to look like. Yes. And, um, and that he can still though, um, experience healing. Yes. Um, and different dialogue with his past through that. And so when I saw this little animal, now I'll say at this point I've been in, you know, I've been seeing my therapist. She moved, I moved with her, you know, all of this for, I don't know, six or seven years or something like this at this point, you know? Yes. Um, and, and I was actually relieved because when I saw this, I didn't feel the thing that you're talking about. Like, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't feel it like I recognized it and, and knew it was a thing. Yes. And I kind of questioned for em, and I thought, oh, that's odd. I don't, I don't really feel that, but partially it is. Well, yeah. But as you've said, like we, we've done a lot of work around this, right? No, right. The conversations have changed. I was able to have, you know, some of those new conversations that Elijah talked about and it actually felt like kind of odd, but also really I think what it's intended to really freeing at the same time. Yes. Right. Speaker 3 00:50:06 Freeing is the word. That's the word. Yes, exactly. Um, I'm not completely inside of that experience anymore. Right. I'm outside of it now. Yeah. I think, um, so one of the, I think another consistent piece of feedback I've gotten about the book is, um, you know, a lot of us, we, we are aware, we are very aware of our past. We are very aware of the relationships that were painful for us, but we're stuck in a situation where we think we either need to go to that person and get the apology or get the mea culpa or get something that's going to ease that pain. Or we've said, Hey, I've tried that didn't work. Um, they're 75 years old now. They're, you know, they're not gonna teach an old dog new tricks. They've passed away, so there's no chance that I can heal this pain. Speaker 3 00:51:01 So the other thing that we tend to do is just give up on any more healing in that regard. And so the idea that healing and forgiveness can happen, like genuinely, not just at a, like, oh, I forgive 'em and I'll try not to think about them level, but at a soul level, that healing and forgiveness can happen without the participation of the other. Uh, and, and, and, and to illustrate a, a creative way even for that to, to, to happen and, and a process for that to happen. Um, that's, that's what I've, I've, I've received that feedback that, oh wow, I've got a lot of healing I've left on the table that I can still do. I've got a lot of forgiveness I can still arrive at that I had not realized. And so the idea that we can be freed from some of that pain, read from some of those old relationships, um, and that we, we can be in charge of that, um, you know, that process rather than feeling like we're dependent upon somebody who won't participate is just really exciting to me. Speaker 2 00:51:58 Yeah. No, that was one of, that was one of the places in the book where I felt like I kind of felt scared for Elijah and I was also like nervous for myself at the same time. Um, and I will just say without spoiling, cause you've already said Father Lou plays a big, you know, spiritual role in the book. And I just, I just wanna bring that out too as well. You know, like, you can, you can do that work, we can do that work and with the support of each other, right. With the support of, of, you know, spiritual friends, but also with the support of, you know, therapists. Like we can do that work, um, and we, we can call on other people to help us do that work. And I think what was super powerful for me in that is that when Elijah is experiencing these moments where he is called on his community as close to community to help him mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, there's frustration and safety as a result of that courage. Yes. Right? Yes. Because those moments don't usually look like what Elijah wanted them Yes. To look Speaker 3 00:52:59 Like they don't go the way he wants. That's a Well, you know, he talked about like, why do stories speak to us so much? You know, in, in a in most stories, the protagonist sets out trying to solve their problem in one way, and they have to learn that, that they've got all the wrong ideas about how they're gonna solve their problem. And that's what happens to Elijah in conversation after conversation. He goes to, this person is Ally, you know, who definitely is. And they don't solve the problem the way that he wants them to, and he gets upset at them, you know, and so he just learns by repetition, like, oh, I'm gonna have to solve this problem in an entirely new way. It's that old Einstein quote, you know, you can't solve a, solve a problem with the same questions that created it, or something like that. So, um, I think that's what Elijah learns to do. So I gotta find a new way to solve these problems. Um, and yeah, he is surrounded by allies. He's got a therapist, he's got clergy, he's got an old mentor, and he's got a current friend. They're all the significant part of his journey here, so it's super important. We call people into our journey with us. Speaker 2 00:53:59 Yeah. Um, Kelly, I've already said I could talk about this book all day, um, but we don't have all day. So what, what would you, um, you know, what would you like to, um, leave us with, and this is com completely open-ended. Um, what, you know, if there's, you know, a question that I didn't ask or a part that you wanted to talk about or, you know, or a prayer or another reading or, or anything, I'm completely open to that, but what would you love for readers to hear at this moment that maybe we haven't covered to the, to the extent that, um, maybe you wish we would have? Speaker 3 00:54:34 Yeah. Um, so I was just talking with someone recently and we were having a great conversation. It was just a regular conversation, and they're like, I feel like I'm getting free counseling from you. <laugh>. <laugh>. Yes. And I said, I said, listen, any good conversation, any good conversation is free counseling between two people. Right? And so my encouragement to people listening in is, um, if you're thinking about taking a, a crack at this story is, uh, go get actually two copies of it and give it to somebody you'd love to have a great conversation with. Um, and in the same way that for both you and I here, like the impact of this story has been multiplied by our conversation about it together. You know, I think, um, even for me still having written it, um, go, go read the story and talk about it with somebody and experience the belonging of that. Um, and also just get some free counseling from a great conversation, <laugh> <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:55:32 That's good advice, Kelly. That's good advice. I'm, I'm so grateful for you, for your work, um, that, that you wrote this, that you, that you took the, the, um, you know, hey, maybe this could be a fiction and, and ran with it. Because for a fictional book, there is so much truth here. Speaker 3 00:55:53 Thank you. That, and, and honestly, like, if you ask what's one more piece of encouragement for folks? It's, I wanted to do this my whole life. And when I actually had the chance, it scared me to the point where I finished the book, went for a walk with a friend the next day, and told him I finished it. And he said, well, have you sent it to the publisher? And I said, no, I don't think I'm going to <laugh>. I, I, I'm gonna, I really should write. I, I said, I, I really think I should write a book about following your passions. And my good friend looked at me and said, how are you going to write a book about following your passions if you're not following your passion for writing a novel? And, uh, and so my encouragement to folks out there is, uh, beyond all of this that we've been talking about, um, I hope me sort of stepping off my beaten path and writing a novel is an encouragement to you to, to pay attention to the things you're wanting to do. Doesn't have to be a novel, could be anything. And just, uh, don't, the more scared you are of it, probably the more important it is to your evolution. So think about doing it. Speaker 2 00:56:53 Oh my goodness, that's a word too. The more scared you are. Speaker 3 00:56:57 That is, that is paraphrase from a great, uh, create, create encourager of creative Steven Pressfield. So, um, yeah. Speaker 2 00:57:06 That's amazing. All right, well, the link is gonna be here. I feel like we should put a link with the thing that already has the two in the dropdown, but, um, the hiding of Elijah Campbell, uh, a novel by Kelly Flanigan. Kelly, thank you once again, Speaker 3 00:57:24 Alexis. That was an awesome conversation without spoiling anything. Thank you, <laugh>. We made it. We did it. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:57:33 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth bti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at, that makes total sense.com.