Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis bti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Well,
Speaker 2 00:00:41 As it often happens, my guest and I have spent a few minutes already chit-chatting a little bit about, um, her new book and some of our experiences and what we hope to cover in this conversation. So, Kelly, I'm hoping that what we record is even better than what we just did, <laugh>, before we hit record. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 00:01:05 Thank you so much. I'm excited to, to be here in conversation with you and tease out a little bit more things, uh, common experiences we have and new conversations that we can forge together.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 Yes. So we are recording this in December. We are in the midst of Advent right now. And, um, you have written an incredible book called The First Advent in Palestine, reversals Resistance and the Ongoing Complexity of Hope. And Kelly, I just wanna say first of all, that yes, the book itself is stunning, but, and I know everyone can't see this, it's not fair. I'll, I'll put a link in the show notes, but the cover art to this book is stunning. I think that it might be kind of a good place for us to start. Like, when people pick this book up and they see this beautiful artwork on the cover, what are they witnessing even in, even in the cover art of this book?
Speaker 3 00:02:09 Well, the cover art was so important to me. Uh, if you think about the title, there's a lot of heavy lifting that each of those words are doing right? Advent Palestine resistance, complexity of hope. But what I knew was that the image on the cover was going to be what would I hope would pull people in. And it was important to me that, that be, um, art by a Palestinian artist. And so this image is called The Flight into Egypt, and it is by, uh, the iconic <laugh>, um, artist, uh, known to be the artist of resistance, uh, in Palestine. His name is Sleeman Monsour. And so he gave us permission to use this art, um, which I'm so grateful. But in it, he is showing, you know, a a very Palestinian picture of a mother and her child, right? Which Jesus and Mary, um, and the backdrop very indicative of Palestine, um, and the empty sack of flower, a flower across her lap.
Speaker 3 00:03:20 Uh, it's, if you look close, you can see that it says un relief, uh, because man, we get, we get a bag of flour, and sometimes that's all we get. Uh, and so to hear him talk about this artwork and then allow us to use it for the cover of the book, but just meant so much to me, and I hope that it does pull people into the reality that, um, you know, Palestinian stories are part of, um, the first Palestine and, you know, advent in Palestine today, I mean, the first advent and, um, advent today in Palestine. So his work does a lot of, uh, goodness in getting us in that direction, I think.
Speaker 2 00:04:02 Yeah. Thank you so much. I just, I had just like almost forgotten that I wanted to, that I wanted to bring that up first thing because it's so, it's stunning and, um, yeah, the un the un relief there is, um, there's just so much, there's so much story there, right? There's so much connection, um, between what's happening now and what happened then. And I think, you know, part of the connection that I remember, you know, one of the first times when I was like, oh, snap, Jesus was a refugee <laugh>, right? Like, it was one of these like crazy, you know, crazy moments. And, and I'd I'd love to, you know, you get your take on that for sure. But, you know, you really start off, one of the things I appreciate so much about how you started this book was setting the scene for the first advent, you know, um, you name what many I think American Evangelical Protestants would say.
Speaker 2 00:05:02 Yeah, this is the story I heard too, which is that God was silent mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? There's this inter testament period where God was silent and then boom, and then Jesus comes and he is the light, and, you know, and it feels very Sunday school, and it feels, you know, kind of these things. And you really, uh, I appreciate it so much how you intentionally took the time at the beginning of the book to set up. Mm. Just because this didn't make, our cannon doesn't actually mean historically that there was a, a period of what we might, what we might have known as silence there, that Jesus stepped into, he was born into a very, very specific political environment inside of, of Roman occupied Palestine. So, can you tell us about that history a little bit, for those of us who may not be as familiar and then, you know, like why is that important for you writing, writing a devotional, a book, an auto devotional book on Advent? Like why is that, why is that part important to you?
Speaker 3 00:06:07 Well, let's be very, well, let's be very candid. This is not a devotional book. That's
Speaker 2 00:06:11 Right. That's correct. I
Speaker 3 00:06:12 <laugh> if anybody expects a devotional book for Advent, this is not it. It's an exploration of those beautiful advent narratives that we've been,
Speaker 2 00:06:19 You do have devotionals. We'll link to those. That's what I was thinking of. But this is definitely not it. That's, that's correct. Right?
Speaker 3 00:06:25 I, I never want people to feel like I have misled them in what I am offering. Uh, so these are explorations of the advent texts that we're gifted by Luke and Matthew. Uh, but I am a big context girl. I have always believed in the deep importance of knowing the context of a part of scripture. If we're gonna share it for devotion or for a sermon, or even for our own medi, um, meditation on scripture. It's so important to know this didn't just come from nowhere. It's connected to something. And so it was in that process of trying to see what is the connective tissue to these advent stories, um, because I was raised to believe, you know, we have God speaking to the prophet Malachi, and then we have right nothing for those 400 years until, uh, the gospel writers start telling us what was gonna be happening on the, in the land.
Speaker 3 00:07:23 And of course, I think we, we can look back and say, well, of course we knew that time still happened, but we, there is something that when there is no testimony, there's no right, there's no testament to it between the old, the page of what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's easy to sort of think, well, nothing significant happened. Even if we could look back and say, oh, well wait a minute, I that can't be true. But if it's not there, we are kind of conditioned to believe nothing that you need to know. Nothing that mattered, nothing that shaped this story mattered, otherwise we would've had it there. And of course, our Catholic brothers and sisters do include the apocrypha in their version of the, the Bible, um, which is how I found it, because I have some Catholic roots. And in hunting around and finding my mother's Catholic Jerusalem Bible, I was like, wait a minute.
Speaker 3 00:08:21 There's some things in the middle of here. Um, which is where I discovered the story of the Maccabees. Um, and yet another time when Jewish, the Jewish people were under occupation, uh, this time by the Salus Empire, um, and their temple had been destroyed, and there was religious persecution and heavy taxation and, um, violent uprisings and, um, you know, with, with the Sal military. And, you know, I, I think for me, what cracked open was this, this is what predates the arrival of, of God, right? Jesus's birth, what was happening on the ground was 400 years of trauma of both military and economic, um, exploitation of land loss and enslavement and just loss. And if anybody got to be silent, it was only God, because on the ground there would've been such loud lament, um, cries of pain and, and mourning the losses that happened under these successive empires.
Speaker 3 00:09:37 And so I think it's important to recognize that this is what predates our advent stories. And maybe to put it another way, that when we recognize you now, we, I think have more, what I would call trauma informed theology. We are starting to understand, uh, what trauma is and how it affects our human bodies, how it affects our psychology, and how we respond to the stimuli around us. Um, and we are starting to understand generational trauma. Well, now I read back into these texts and think in the body of the Jewish people, there was generational trauma. And it would've shaped their bodies, their ways of thinking and reacting. It would've shaped their culture. And so when Jesus is born into a story and literally born into human skin, Jesus was born into a, a family that was victim of generational trauma. Jesus is not exempt from the experience, generational trauma and the lived experience of trauma that he would undergo in his human journey. I think that is actually a very important thing to understand about the incarnation. So I think context for the advent stories, it's important to know about Jewish suffering, but I also think it starts us thinking differently about even what incarnation means. This is in the body of Jesus, and therefore in the body of God.
Speaker 2 00:11:22 Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think this time of year I get a little teary, a little more easily <laugh> than, than, um, you know, I do in other, in other times of year, other meditations. But, um, this is, you know, I just like, this makes the magnific make more sense, right. When we think about it in this way, um, that it wasn't, you know, a poem that she had memorized or something like this. Right. But this is her cry, um, of understanding, I think, at least at that first level of what this, of what this could mean, um, for her people, you know, what, what this could mean for them. Yes,
Speaker 3 00:12:05 Yes. The magnificent rings different mm-hmm. <affirmative> when we factor in the reality of the trauma that Mary as a member of this community would've experienced. And, and when we understand her region in particular, right? Galilee was what I call a restive region. There was always things happening up in the Galilee region. There was, uh, military incursions from the Roman Empire because of all of the, because there was so much resistance and banditry and so many things happening, um, that not unlike, uh, the West Bank now, uh, you see so much activity and, and it shapes you, right? It shapes you into a kind of person to see the injustices every day, to see your uncles being humiliated, to see your cousins, um, going out, um, on some of these protests to, uh, maybe see other things cuz the soldiers were known for, uh, coming in pretty hard on the women.
Speaker 3 00:13:11 Um, this is, which should not be uncommon, uh, for us to know. But often war is really particularly difficult for women. Uh, and the Roman Empire was known for, uh, raping women as a way to humiliate, um, and, and make their control so visceral. Um, Mary would've known that she would've seen it happen in her community, um, because it was so prevalent in the Galilee region at the time. And so I think when she sings that song, she is singing from a, a very real place of I know what this feels like, and I am being redeemed in real time, and that's how I know that God will in fact, redeem others. So is her song prophetic? Sure. But I think the more important thing is she's telling us what is happening in her body and in her story in real time. This is happening to me that I am, I am the lowly humiliated one that is being lifted up. That's how I know that God will do it for others. That's right. Right. She, you know, it's from her own experience. And that song to me just vibrates with a different intensity. Um, and liberative power when you factor that in.
Speaker 2 00:14:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I like to say that, um, that the prophetic is just saying what is right? Yes.
Speaker 3 00:14:37 Ab
Speaker 2 00:14:37 Absolutely. And and that's exactly what you just said, Mary is saying, what is
Speaker 3 00:14:41 Exactly, I think that's a perfect way to say it.
Speaker 2 00:14:45 So you mentioned it, Kelly, that, you know, there, we've got, got context for the first advent. Um, before we started recording, I mentioned that a friend of mine had, had shared a video with me that you had actually also shared on your social media about Bethlehem now today inside the West Bank, and what that looks like specifically for Palestinian Christians, um, inside of, of Bethlehem and the West Bank. Now. But I wanna go back to, to where you, you started to go, um, because there's, there's historical context of trauma and then what we know, but I will just, I'll just say from my experience, what many American Christians are not super aware of is the traumatic or the traumatic experiences of Palestinian Palestinians now, and, and their families and communities and, and having lived, um, where they live for some of them hundreds, if not a thousand <laugh> years or more mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:15:54 Um, but especially over the last, you know, almost a hundred years as, as things have have shifted dramatically in the Middle East. So you share some stories of, um, Palestinians that you, that you know, in the book, but without going there just yet, why is it important that we understand this con this current context and this and this, the, the current conflict? Why is, why would that be important to us as we think about, as we think about admin as we meditate on the incarnation? Why does, why does that matter to us in our context now?
Speaker 3 00:16:35 Well, I'll start with a little bit of my own story, uh, in terms of why Palestinians are important in my own story, and maybe, uh, we'll, we'll get to where you wanna go with a little direction, maybe. But I grew up in, uh, both Catholic and predominantly evangelical spaces. Um, I grew up at a, in a season, at least eighties and nineties, where there was such fervor, um, around the holy land. And it was a big deal, you know, if you could go to the holy land and visit the places where Jesus walked, and I heard so often really eloquent testimony of times spent in the Holy Land and meeting Jewish, um, men and women, uh, in the Holy Land and, you know, especially in Jerusalem, et cetera. But it wasn't until after college I picked up a book. Uh, it was right when the in, I now know, um, it was when the, the first inata happened, the first uprising of, uh, Palestinians in the West Bank.
Speaker 3 00:17:46 And, and so it was hitting the news. And all I knew is that something was roiling in the Middle East. And as, you know, somebody who just graduated from college, I'm like, well, I'll pick up a book on that. I'll read one book and I'll understand everything happening in the Middle East, <laugh>, how naive I was. Um, but I picked up a book and it was the first time, and this, this book was a, it was a New York Times bestseller, uh, was not written by a Christian person. And this person was telling me that there was another people group in the Holy Land. I knew about the Jewish people, and I probably at some level knew that there were also some variety of Christians there. But I never knew that there were Palestinian people who had equally deep roots in the place, in that same land that we call holy.
Speaker 3 00:18:38 That blew my mind. And I almost felt like, what kind of a Christian my am I that I didn't know this, but now I can look back and say, well, nobody told me. It was like this little secret. Nobody told you that they were there. And now I know that when people would go to the Holy Land, they didn't go to the places where our Palestinian brothers and sisters live. Um, and so, you know, I think the other thing is that when people do find out that there are Palestinians, um, so many of them are Muslim, but they don't even realize that actually there are Christian Palestinians. These are our brothers and sisters in even a deeper way, not only our human brothers and sisters, but we share the same, uh, faith tradition. And they are there and they are safeguarding our holy sights, and they are right.
Speaker 3 00:19:28 So I think for me, this is where it began the recognition like, oh, now that I have seen them, I can't unsee. And so for the next set of, you know, I mean 30 years I've been reading books out of the region from both Jewish and Messianic, Jewish and Palestinian and Muslim, all I'm reading from all over. Cuz I just wanna learn and have traveled there multiple times, um, and now have some very dear Palestinian friends. And to me it's like, oh, understanding their story is part of understanding the story of this place that we call holy. It is part of understanding the texture of the world of Jesus. Um, but I also think that now there is this different dynamic because our, uh, Palestinian friends are now living under times that are quite fraught. Um, and I think it's, I think we need to explore that now, Imperial dynamics.
Speaker 3 00:20:26 It used to be Rome pressing upon the Jewish people. I think a case could be made that now it is, um, the Israeli state, uh, and largely empowered by the West, including our own country, the United States way. You know, they are the oppressive force, um, that our, our Palestinian friends are living under and struggling under. And I think that calls upon a lot of really hard work to understand the history, which is quite complex, to, um, maybe investigate our own complicity. Where are our blind spots? What do we need to learn? Um, part of my journeying there has been to continue to learn, um, by putting myself in the world of my friends and letting that shape me and challenge me. But I, I wanted, you know, my guess is there are other people who similarly are faithful Christians, faithful students of scripture and may not even know, oh, there are Christian Palestinians.
Speaker 3 00:21:30 There are a whole other group of people that also are part of this story. Um, and so my hope was that maybe if I could put some of that in this book, it would help people not only see the power dynamics and ask some of those questions, but even just saying, oh, alongside our Jewish and Messianic brothers and sisters and Christians, there are also Palestinians. Um, and so let's, let's see them. I mean, the shepherds were kind of the unseen people in the advent stories, right? They were the essential workers that, you know, you needed them, but you didn't wanna see them. And I sometimes think that, you know, the Palestinians are treated that way. They're not fully seen, uh, but they're there and they're stewards of our holy sites. Um, and they are fighting for justice, um, in their own communities. So,
Speaker 2 00:22:17 Yeah. No, that's, it's, it's right. It's, it's rich and it's good. I, I loved that section where you, where you compared the shepherds to essential workers calling Bethlehem. I think like a, like the House of Meat <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:22:30 Right? This is where
Speaker 2 00:22:31 Was,
Speaker 3 00:22:31 He was meatpacking industry of That's right. It's the
Speaker 2 00:22:34 Meat industry. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 3 00:22:37 The temple had to get their meat from somewhere.
Speaker 2 00:22:39 That's exactly right. He
Speaker 3 00:22:40 Got it from Bethlehem, which was, is not very far away.
Speaker 2 00:22:43 <laugh>. It's a hop skipping and jump, you know, it's just, it's just right there. Um, just
Speaker 3 00:22:47 Cross a checkpoint and you're there, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:22:50 But, you know, I think that, um, I, I'm gonna interject just a little bit because I really appreciate you giving, you know, giving us that background and that context, and especially from, you know, where you were coming from. I will say my story is similar, but it's later, you know, um, I started traveling to Israel in, during the second in Nevada, um, at the beginning of the two thousands. So 2003 was my first trip, um, but last month was my first time to cross a checkpoint. So I've been to the Holy Land eight times, and one time, uh, only have I spent time in Palestine, and I am still processing that trip. And so I won't process completely out loud with you here, uh, you know, know, other than to say that I'm incredibly grateful for what you've done in, in, in this book. But I would say my experience was, has a lot of similarities.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 And I think it's good that you and I, um, can talk through this a little bit and, and kind of have, kind of found each other in our, in our similarities, in our stories. Because it makes me say, you know, like, if there's two, there's more. Right? If there's, if there's two of us who have this similar story, um, there's more. Right? And, and this is not an uncommon thing for American Christians, you know, especially, yeah. You know, I, I hear this all the time. Like, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's a pilgrimage, you know, thing. And then it, it, it crushes parts of my heart to think that for people for whom it is a once in a lifetime opportunity, they might miss the chance to get, to engage with, um, so many people who are still a very vital part of the land and of, um, the Christian faith and story.
Speaker 2 00:24:44 And that is the Palestinians who, um, who live, you know, many of them on the other side of the wall, um, you know, where Bethlehem exists today mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I do think as Christians, as we explore, you know, the, the, the biblical aspects of the story that you bring forward, the context there, the questions that we could ask about what were Mary's experiences, what were her family's experiences, what did this look like for Jesus to be born into this political environment? I think it's entirely appropriate that we also ask some of those same questions about our contemporary context today. You know, because, you know, letting our hearts break for what Jesus was born into, we gives us a bridge to help us, um, understand and form compassion for what's happening now, um, in Palestine. And I think it's just vital that we do that as Christians. I think it's just vital that we do that
Speaker 3 00:25:43 If we recognize it in the text. And I hope that that's part of what my excavation work was, was if you can see it here, then you should be able to turn on the news and recognize it. And that may provoke a lot of soul searching on our part. But Jesus is always telling us, right, to repent, to rep, rethink, repent. Repentance is about rethinking, recalibrating what you think, you know. And so I think, you know, if we can look at scripture well and see the dynamics, political economics, sociopolitical, I mean, they're all there. If we can see that, then we can actually look at the news and say, oh, I see some things and I might have to rethink, but this is the invitation and, and I'm so grateful. This is where the spirit guides us, um, in that process. I believe
Speaker 2 00:26:40 So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the, the places that, um, I found to be really interesting as far as the, you know, your exploration of the biblical text was concerned, um, is the talk about justice. You know, we, we kind of, I don't know, many of us kind of have this thought and you name it, of like, this is about the law, or this is about, you know, what, what the, these kinds of things, right? We have, we can kind of, I don't know. Sometimes I'm, I get, I get excited. I kind of think this is what we bang our fists about, you know, is this kind of thing. But you're like, uh, yeah. And what about the money, right? Like, you talk a lot about the economic justice, and again, then these things from the text just start coming out, right? Like, we know Maryanne Joseph, when they went to the temple, had to, had to sacrifice birds. Yep. They were poor people in a poor region, in a poor land. And, and, and Jesus grew up in this house. Like, can you talk, can you talk about that a a little bit? Because I do, I do. I love this exploration of this incarnation and advent we're like, well, let's talk about Jesus being here in the body. This is what it looked like. These are, he was not feasting like a king every night at his dinner table. This is not what it looked like.
Speaker 3 00:28:00 And I, this is where I think, you know, I, my husband is from Burundi, which is, uh, a small country landlock country in East Africa. Uh, and they always come in near the bottom of the UN's list of underdeveloped countries. They're usually in the bottom five, um, in terms of being, they're, and we do development work. That's kind of our day job. And, um, but my husband grew up on less than a dollar a day. So when we talk about that less than a dollar a day, it's like, that was his lived experience. And, you know, it was really helpful to hear, because what I know that means is there are meals you don't have, and the meals that you do get are not full of nutrient rich foods. It's so many people in, in countries in like this. And Palestine is, Palestine now is a lot like this.
Speaker 3 00:28:52 And Palestine then was absolutely like this. So to grow up poor, as most people did, as Joseph and Mary and Jesus would have grown up this way, yes, it means you lacked resources, but it also meant like you were most likely malnourished, which does things to your body and, and our cognitive function. Um, it shapes society in a certain way to grow up in a kind of, uh, a world that is, uh, dealing with such deep economic stress. I mean, there's lots of studies now about, uh, how extreme poverty is a driver of trauma. So, like, in our work, we do a lot of, we have trauma therapists that work in our most impoverished communities because poverty, like, it, it, the, the violence that we associate with militarism, actually similar dynamics. You know, when you are being exploited economically, um, it is also traumatic and it shapes the society a certain way.
Speaker 3 00:29:48 It shapes, this would've been the bodily experience of Jesus to grow up. You know, I, of course, we will hear the story from Matthew that, you know, he was a political target of Herods, and that's why they became political refugees to Egypt for a while. And even when they returned, they couldn't go back to Bethlehem, where they probably, where they had Wright family connection and probably a plot, according to Matthew. They had to go up and around to Nazareth. They were basically internally displaced. Like, this is all in the body of Jesus. And I, I think how we never hear in the story, in the gospels, we don't hear that adult Jesus ever returned to Bethlehem. He went down to Beth, Bethany, he went to places around. And I wonder if there isn't some purp, like, did Jesus experience survivor's guilt? He got out of Bethlehem before Herod, right.
Speaker 3 00:30:49 And the slaughter of the innocence where he would've lost family members like his, like zacharia, right? He, and I think the, you know, when you think about the humanity of Jesus, he comes into this traumatized, you know, his D n A already has that in his, in his human d n a and then his lived experience, you know, the lack of the maybe mal most likely malnourishment, the lack of education, the, um, survivor's guilt, the, like, all of these things like Jesus entered into the most, probably what most humans experience as normative. You and I are probably among those privileged, a small percentage of priv privileged people who don't know this kind of trauma, this kind of human experience. But I have learned that most people live a life that is shaped by war, uh, economic duress, um, these kinds of, you know, malnourishment, et cetera.
Speaker 3 00:31:53 And what, you know, when, when we talk about incarnation, God came into what probably was the most ubiquitous human experience to enter into deep solidarity with humanity. That's what Jesus did. And that's what we see. If we can pull apart the threads of the story and really look and say, wow, God understands what it is to really be human at its most difficult, at its most basic. Um, and that now like, as I say, lives in the body of God, that's, to me what incarnation is. It's how deeply God has experienced the world as most people experience it.
Speaker 2 00:32:34 Yeah. Kelly, and as you're, as you're talking, I think how right it is for us to be curious and ask those questions. You know, like, I, I wonder, I don't know. I wonder maybe he did have survivors guilt. You know, we, we don't, you're right. And not that I can think of, we don't see him go back to Bethlehem, what is, you know, what does that mean? This was the place where his dad was from. Right. You know, so like, what, what, what is it about that, you know, just to begin to ask those questions to allow ourselves to be curious mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, um, and, and just to say, as, as you mentioned, like, we're learning more about trauma studies now, and, you know, in fact, I'm, I'm taking a class, the final that I'm gonna write as soon as we hang up here, as I'm I'm gonna finish, is on a, uh, theologies of exile class where we do, we take a lot of time looking at the prophets, and especially Ezekiel and Jeremiah.
Speaker 2 00:33:30 Now, we're in the tour right now. Um, but just through the lens of trauma, you know, what did this look like? And I think a lot of times with maybe the history of the exile, but certainly with the gospels as well, for those of us who have grown up around those stories, they just become really common. You know, the language becomes common. Um, you know, we can, we can, you know, kind of tell these stories with our eyes closed, you know, we, it, it just, the, the language becomes very, very familiar, right? Yeah. And, and, and it, and it, it breaks my heart when I, when I'm reading through the prophets now mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and doing close readings and trying to go, what, what did this actually mean? You know, like, what if, what if Jeremiah isn't just, you know, in entirely poetic and what he's saying, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:34:21 Right? What if people are experiencing things like this, then what did that look like? Or if, okay, let's pretend it is poetic. What was going on that made those words so meaningful for the community and for the population. Right? And, and as we look at the gospel stories, I think that to ask ourselves some of those similar questions, even for text that is so familiar, can really deepen our, uh, gosh, I mean, our love, our affection for Jesus for sure. But our understanding of, of what that really meant, yes. That he would come in incarnate into a body like this, into experiences like this, you know?
Speaker 3 00:35:01 And I think seeing, you know, like you s as you were talking about the ways we become familiar with texts, right? We have these stones with sharp edges, but over time, we've polished them down to these rounded pebbles that we soak cavalier hold and tossed in our hands. And yet they were sharp. They were meant to be sharp. They were forged in pain, right? <laugh> that we are so out of touch with that has been sanitized or domesticated, or just softened over with our familiarity. And I, I definitely see that in the gospel stories. I now, I see what, you know, like when you think of poker, right? Somebody has a tell, and I'm like, now I'm like, oh, the tells are all throughout these stories that Matthew and Luke are giving us. But boy, until I revisited them over the last set of years, I hadn't seen them.
Speaker 3 00:35:52 I, you know, and I'm like, gosh, I'm a student of scripture. I'm a faithful Christian, and I missed it. But Luke intended that you would definitely see one of the big features of his story is the economy is a huge, huge character right? Alongside Mary and Joseph and Gabriel. And, and the shepherds, you're meant to say. I mean, he talks about that darn sense that they had to go reg like five times. He mentioned meaning, you're supposed to pick up on this. There's a tax hike coming for people who are already barely making it. Joseph wasn't just traveling south, worried about his wife who was pregnant. He was also probably worried about like, right, things are gonna get worse, and how are we gonna economically make this work for us? Um, like we are meant to see the economy as such an integral part of Luke's story.
Speaker 3 00:36:46 But man, how I missed it for all those years, um, and, and coming back to it in the last set of years has allowed me to go, oh, wow. Now it's, now, I can't not see it right now. It's there. And seeing these stories afresh. Now, every time I encounter a gospel story, like further on, it's like, oh, Jesus having conversations with Roman functionaries when he most likely was a victim of Ro, you know? Right. He was traumatized by a lot of Roman in his childhood. He might have lost a parent due to a Roman invasion. He lost his uncle Zacharia with what happened down in Bethlehem. Like he would have had in his own body. This, my life is shaped by these people. And it, and then you see how he is magnanimous and how he, I mean, he points out things, but also invites them. And I'm like, Jesus is much more stunning when you factor in what would've been in his human self, in his human experience. And that humanness to react. Jesus is even more, to me, he is even more ous in his utter humanity, you know?
Speaker 2 00:38:01 That's right. And, you know, I've, we've had, I've had this conversation a a couple of different times, but it keeps coming up. And I think it's because it's, it's stunning to me too. And it's important, I think for us as, as Christians, that, you know, sometimes we have this view of Jesus as if he was only divine. You know, it was becau, you know, because we have this ugh, you know, the, the dualism that exists and some of the, you know, things that we, that we take with us in our faith that really, I don't know, NT Wright would say aren't exactly biblical. Um, you know, but, you know, we are, were like, oh, he, but it was just a shell, you know, it was like just a shell. It was just a body. And he was like, really? Just like this God in inside of this like shell of a, of a skin, you know, it's like, uh, but really no <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:38:47 Like he really was, as we're talking about fully Yes. Fully human and fully divine. And so it's not that he just snapped his fingers, you know, like the, the chick on Bee witched and was like, okay, I'm gonna talk to these Romans and be like, totally fine about it now. You know, like it was, it was in him, in his whole self, you know? Yes. In a way that we can't fathom. I understand. But I think we do, um, we do ourselves a disservice, our faith, a disservice when we neglect to, I don't know, to be curious, to use that word again, when we neglect to be curious about Jesus humanity in that way.
Speaker 3 00:39:31 And I wonder, I mean, for me, I don't know if this is your experience, but I grew up where, when incarnation was talked about, I mean, yes, sometimes yes, the incarnation happened at Kris, the Christmas story, but the deeper conversations about incarnation were always connected to atonement, so Right. It was more about Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had to be born
Speaker 2 00:39:52 That's right. Yep.
Speaker 3 00:39:53 Into human, you know, so Okay. Yes. At Christmas, so that then we could really talk about That's right. The big deal, which was what happened during Holy Week. That's right. And that's where, so so much of my understanding about incarnation has been shaped from that, from that, from crucifixion, right. From from Holy Week and atonement thinking. And I think this has been such a revelation for me to actually look at incarnation from Advent instead of atonement. And I'm like, wow, it changes everything for me. Yeah. And how, how humanity becomes the place, right. That God works, even in Mary's story, right. In her humanity. God enters in and, and, and, well, that's a whole nother story, but I, yeah. I think that has been one of the fundamental things for me is I see the incarnation so differently now because of the advent stories. And I, I, I think it's a healthy corrective.
Speaker 3 00:40:45 Um, and it, to me, it makes Jesus so much more relatable. Maybe not to me as an upper class, you know, um, American white passing person. But I think for so many people in the world over this, this picture of Jesus is like, yeah. Oh, he's li he is like us in every way and has suffered what we have suffered and knows our pain. It makes Jesus more relatable, I think, to think maybe he too struggled with survivors guilt. Maybe he too knew what it was like to be, like, to have hunger pangs from not eating. Like, wow. And I think for a whole group of people, this makes Jesus a say, you know? Yes. He knows us and therefore knows how to save us. Right?
Speaker 2 00:41:38 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I would like for you to share, if you would, another, another kind of one of your tells mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and it can be from the book, or not from the book, but, you know, we've talked a little bit about, um, the economy. We've talked a little bit about the resistance, um, in the Galilee region, a little bit about the unseen ness mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I think, you know, yes. Of the shepherds, but of others in the story as well. When you think about going through the gospels now, what are some of those things that, what, what's at least one of those things that you thought, ah, I can't believe I didn't see that?
Speaker 3 00:42:16 Well, I think when you recognize that, um, well, first of all, I do think, I believe, and if you read the book, you'll see how I get there theologically. But I do believe that Joseph most likely perished, um, in some Roman incursions up in Zephyric when Jesus was quite young. And so we think, you know, Jesus having lost his father at a young age, to the empire, again, I think that deeply shapes the way you see him deal with any Roman soldier, any Roman functionary throughout the story, um, or those who are de losing, you know, any other fathers he's dealing with. I just think I sometimes wonder what is, what was the relationship between him and John the Baptist? Really, you know, John the Baptist is like, my dad died protecting me in Bethlehem, uh, you know, right outside of Bethlehem, but you got, you got advanced notice and got to leaves and go to Egypt.
Speaker 3 00:43:16 I mean, don't you think there might have been a little, even if they loved each other, a little awkwardness or a little work that they had to do, um, in their humanness, um, a around their fathers and losing their fathers, both of them losing them to the empire in one way or another? Um, I think of Mary being somebody who would have been, um, aware of brutality against women, maybe herself a victim of it. We don't know. Um, I think there is a valid reading of the story that, um, Mary is as likely to have been a victim as not. And, you know, what would it, when I think about Mary's possible experience, or at least her deep understanding of what it is to be a, the precarity of being a woman in that time, and the stigma that she would've had, uh, raising Jesus on her own. Well, then you watch the way that Jesus deals with women. And I just think there was so much there that he would've seen in his own mother's story, seen in his aunties and cousins, and would've shaped how he saw and interacted with women with a different kind of knowing, a different kind of tenderness. And, and the times when he stood up for, I, I'm not gonna condemn you and I, none of these guys can't either. Right. That he had a different perspective. Um, I don't know. I just,
Speaker 3 00:44:47 There seems, there's hardly a story that I've come to since I've done this that I don't say, oh, wow. When you understand where the, where the story started, where Jesus started, where his natal family started, it's deeper, it's richer. It's more challenging sometimes.
Speaker 2 00:45:05 Yeah. I think it's, I think it's definitely more challenging. And I think that, um, you know, for, for what it is, for everything that's wonderful and fun and beautiful, sometimes the Christmas culture that we have here in the States make things like this more challenging, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, my <laugh> my husband sometimes refers to me as a Debbie Downer, right? Like, <laugh>, you know, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:45:35 Kelly's with me. You can't see that she raised her hand. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say she's joined me. Yes, she's joined me. But, you know, because, but this is heavy, right? Yes. To think about these kinds of things, um, it's, it's heavy. To meditate on them is heavy. You know, when, you know, when we think about trying to figure out how to hold intention, the joy of a new baby, and the hardship that that can bring when everything else is well in the world, or in your world, you know, um, to, to, to imagine, you know, just let our, our theological imaginations go, you know, for a few minutes or for a few hours, or, you know, to, to sit and read this work. Um, it is challenging. It, it really is, because the, the complexity that it brings to our faith is hard to hold.
Speaker 3 00:46:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. But, but isn't it also, I mean, for me, it's challenging, but it's also deeply comforting. Yes. Sometimes I read this and I feel like, oh, but this makes so much more sense. This feels so much more true. And that if this is what, what the writers Luke and Matthew were experiencing and wanted to share with us about what most likely was happening, like this feels like the most, the more honest understanding of what it is to be human, what the world often looks like, because there have been so many empires since, and so many people who have, um, suffered, whether it was death or enslavement or, um, sexual abuse or land loss. Like when I read it that way, I feel like finally somebody's being honest about what this human experience is and where God enters into it. Um, not neat and tidy. There is a com, as I say, the ongoing complexity of hope, it's there, but it is, we have to look at the hard stuff in order to really get to hope. But then it, to me, but then it's more solid then. But there's a deep comfort for me. Like, I'm doing this. And I remember my editor was like, this is pretty intense <laugh>. Like, we need to leave people with some hope. And I'm like, oh. But honesty is so comforting and, and, and kind of the runway to hope for me,
Speaker 2 00:48:14 <laugh>. Absolutely. And well, and, and you know, I think about, um, as, as you were talking about, and, and the empires continue, right? And I think like Luke too is kind of the, the quintessential, you know, if if somebody's gonna read something on Christmas morning while their kids are trying to tear out the presents, it's probably gonna be Luke too. Um, but if we just flip a couple of pages, might be my favorite chapter in Luke, which is Luke four. Mm-hmm. And you mentioned, or you allude to it, um, near the beginning of the book, this is where Jesus almost gets thrown off a cliff, right? Yes. Um, but he almost gets thrown up a cliff in the wake of reading from the school of Isaiah. Yes. That
Speaker 3 00:48:51 Those beautiful Jubilee texts, those
Speaker 2 00:48:54 Beautiful Jubilee texts. But,
Speaker 3 00:48:56 You know, they're also sharp. They
Speaker 2 00:48:59 Are, they are sharp. And, you know, then, I mean, I <laugh>, whew. And then I, I preached on this a couple weeks ago, and I, and I come back to John the Baptist, who's one of my absolute favorites, you know, but then Jesus again, quotes from Isaiah, right? And this felt sharp to John in prison waiting to be beheaded. Right. I've come to do all of these things, and guess what? My friend, none of this is going to happen for you. Right. And, and this is, this is hard, right? This is really, really hard. But this is the, this is the hope of the gospel, though, <laugh>. This is, this is what I think we, you know, I would say in my, um, experience and my upbringing, you know, um, I, I don't think I'm the only one who kind of, who kind of missed it, but there is a holistic gospel that Jesus is preaching with his whole body
Speaker 3 00:49:50 Yes. With
Speaker 2 00:49:51 His whole body. Right. This isn't about, you know, uh, the, the hope isn't, well, you get to join me in heaven when you die. Like there is hope.
Speaker 3 00:50:03 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:50:03 <affirmative> for us in the world today, in our living today, there is hope for us
Speaker 3 00:50:09 Is a hard born hope. Oh, a hard born hope. I mean, those Jubilee texts, I mean, they're good news for the poor. Yeah. They're hard news for the rest of
Speaker 2 00:50:20 Us. That's right. That's
Speaker 3 00:50:22 Right. I, and I, and, and, right, that's the connection I made, is I think the admin stories are good news for the poor, and they're hard news for those of us who have something to lose, who have something we have to reconsider, who have something that we have been complicit in. And these stories should make us tremble a bit. That's what they're meant to do for people who are in our position. Yes. But ma'am, good news, like my husband's family, he's like, hearing that your debts have been forgiven, there would've been nothing more exciting to his father than hearing that his father was a pastor and a church planner for 45 years known countrywide for the work he did, spreading the gospel and growing churches. And the best news would've been, Andre und Deja, your deaths are forgiven. And my dad would've had to struggle with the other side, which is, you have some things to give back. You have some land that isn't yours to keep. You have some deep thinking about how the economy works that you need to rethink to stay in this Jubilee campaign. Right. But Advent gives us some similar notes. I think
Speaker 2 00:51:38 That's right. All right, Kelly. Now I'm, now I get fired up. Now
Speaker 3 00:51:42 I can't talk about, I cannot talk about Jubilee texts and not get fired up and cry simultaneously.
Speaker 2 00:51:47 I'm hearing you, I'm hearing you. And now I'm, and now I'm fired up. But I'm gonna, but I'm gonna ask, I wanna I wanna ask you to, to, um, to wrap us up, Kelly, this, I mean, this conversation has just been food for my soul, and so I'm, I'm so appreciative. Um, it's hard in this time of year, sometimes we get wrapped up, sometimes I get wrapped up in the wrong things, just to be truthful. Um, and, and they're not always wrong, you know, but it's like, I, I want to take the time, I want to meditate on the miracle of the incarnation. And not just that this teenage woman was pregnant with the Messiah, but what that meant as he was born into that situation and lived into that situation, his life of hope, um, what that meant, um, for, for them and what it means for us. So Kelly, I'm just gonna ask you to wrap us up. Um, what question didn't I ask? Where didn't I go? Um, you know, or, or what meditation might you have for us as we move, um, closer to the celebration mm-hmm. <affirmative> of Christmas in this season?
Speaker 3 00:52:59 Well, I think there's one scene that I, I wish if I could, if I could challenge, um, I wish translators would've done a better job, um, interpreting what Luke was trying to tell us about what that initial Christmas Eve looked like. Uh, because I grew up believing that it was a very solitary, very lonely, in a sense, experience of Joseph and Mary not being able to find lodging, um, kind of on the outskirts, maybe finding a cave. If you've ever been to Bethlehem, they take you to Shepherd's Field, where there's some little cave that maybe Jesus was born in out there on the outskirts. Um, thank God some shepherds came by, and some angels, you know, had some, some songs to sing. But it was a very lonely scene. And I actually don't think that that's what Luke intended to describe. And I think so much has been done with that little word in that there was no room in the in.
Speaker 3 00:53:57 And we translators, like I said, have in, had made this worse. But in our Americanness, we hear an in and we think of a motel. There was no room in the motel, and there were no room in any of the other motels. And so they end up on the outskirts. But that's not the understanding where I think we're meant to get the, Joseph was coming to his family home. This was his extended family. They may not have been his intimate family, but they were his extended family. If you know anything about the Abrahamic cultures, it's a big deal. You would've been welcomed. There would've been room for you in the family compound. Now, I know something about compounds from living in Burundi where there's a big, there's a compound where there's an ice big wall or hedge or something, and inside there's a house with a few room private rooms.
Speaker 3 00:54:47 There's some other covered spaces. There's the area where the livestock is that's still in the compound. There's some quarters out back where maybe some of your workers live. And, and actually this tracks with what it looked like in ancient Palestine. There would've been a family compound. And so there wasn't room in the in, and the better translation would be in a private room. There wasn't a private room where Mary could have shut the door and, you know, had a moment. Um, but they would've been welcomed into the family compound with all of Joseph's family. And they would've been part of the family meals, and they would've been surrounded and had a place, not a private space, not an inn, but maybe out by the livestock, but still within the boundaries of the family compound still within the welcome of the family. And I Ima, in my mind, I see, you know, all the women are busy making dinner.
Speaker 3 00:55:48 They're cutting up, you know, they're pitting the olives and cutting up cucumbers and tearing the fresh mint leaves and putting everything to, and Mary's water breaks. And all of those women, you know, wash their hands and functionally become midwives. And she is surrounded by family. And Joseph is waiting with family to get word about, you know, the safe birth of their son. And I just think we, we have been given a very lonely Christmas Eve, but I actually imagined they were surrounded by family that loved them and cared for them, and celebrated the birth of this baby. And that the shepherds got to come into the compound and share in the party, but that they were not alone. And, and even that, like I said, gives me comfort that Mary was surrounded by aunt, you know, new aunties and cousins. And I would hope that that might be more of the picture we have.
Speaker 3 00:56:45 That even though we have these little crushes around our house or under a Christmas tree, that just, so Joseph and Mary and Jesus imagined the family that loved them and welcomed them and surrounded them and helped usher this little life into the world, like you said, in the midst of all that was terrible about the empire, right? The, the pushback that we still have each other, we, you cannot beat out of us, the hospitality and the joy that we have in each other. Even Herod can't do that. Even Caesar can't do that. You raise our taxes, but you can't deprive of us, of our human, of our humanity and the ability to be together. So maybe that would give us a different picture on Christmas Eve.
Speaker 2 00:57:30 That was one of my favorite parts. <laugh>, Kelly <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:57:34 I love. I loved it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for the book. Thank you for that. Um, fresh, it is for me a fresh meditation as we move in to, um, to Christmas Eve and Christmas and the thought of, um, Jesus and his parents being surrounded by family, um, brings me so much joy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, again, this is Kelly und deja writer of the first advent in Palestine, reversals resistance, and the ongoing complexity of hope. Um, I'll link this on the show notes that everyone can know where they can find it. Um, this will air just about a week before Christmas, but I would encourage everyone that if the shipping makes it impossible for you to get your hands on before Christmas morning, read it anyway. Read it after, read it, keep it for next year. Um, this, as Kelly and I have, have talked and as she has shared, um, this just helps us get a little bit more of a grasp on the complexity of, um, our faith and who we and who we serve as our savior. So thanks for being with us, Kelly.
Speaker 3 00:58:44 It was a joy to be with you.
Speaker 1 00:58:47 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Boetti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at. That makes total sense.com.
