[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay, so I feel like I can take a deep breath because I'm. I won't say I'm done fangirling Marianne, but I'm close. Probably this has been the perfect Listeners probably hear me say this more often than they want to. This has been my perfect like morning coffee book.
At times it has felt like a devotional for me. I felt really pastored reading this and it was also such a joy because you're just such a gifted writer. So I just want to say thank you so much for even bringing these kind of concepts that we're going to talk about today to the attention of folks like me and helping me put words kind of to some of the things that I've been experiencing. So thank you for joining me and thank you for this amazing book.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Alexis, for reading it and for saying that I am really glad that it has companioned you well and been that kind of book that you can dip into during your morning coffee. The. The first book I wrote years and years ago was about the practice of Sabbath keeping, which is kind of just finding rest and renewal in our lives. And I remember thinking I would love for the book, the reading of the book to feel like an experience of Sabbath that just feeds you in some way and so may carried through and the subsequent works that I have written because yeah, hopefully it challenges people in, in all the right ways, the book. But I don't. I want it to be an invitation as opposed to something that's more shaking you by the shoulders. I. I don't. I don't work that way usually.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: So glad it did not feel that way. Yeah, it did not feel that way at all. It did not feel shaken by the shoulders whatsoever. I'm going to say the name of it before I forget.
It's called Better Than Nor Virtues for an Off Script Life by Marianne McKibben. Dana and this book, I will say one of the reasons, I will say a couple of reasons that this book felt familiar to me and like I said, you helped give me some, some words for things that I had experienced. I'M going to name maybe three kind of experiences in my life or adjacent experiences and then, and then ways that this book is like, oh yeah, let's name that first. I wasn't even going to name this one. I totally forgot about it.
People in my life know I have some type A tendencies. I was just in a meeting where we were joking about this and it's really true. So when I was a first time mom, first time mom for me, first time parent for, for my husband and I looked like having a set of identical twins.
And I have joked multiple times that that is like, that has.
I would say I was like, God gave me twins because he knew I couldn't handle just one. Because I would just find a way to just continue with those tendencies. And with two, I mean, I had someone tell me at church, she was like, I think this is going to be chaos. And I'm like that you might think is supposed to be an encouraging word for me. It feels really horrible.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: But you know, it was this beautiful chaos of like you just can'. You know, like you just. I couldn't control the things I thought I can control as a parent even going into it because there are too many bodies and has just. It was all of us. Too many little bodies, not enough grown up bodies. You know, there were a lot, you know, fast forward to.
I not fast forward actually go back. My had a close relative when I was a teenager, experienced a traumatic brain injury and was physically and mentally disabled after that. Then you start to kind of look at things differently. You know, this is a woman who we had to relearn to know.
We had to get to know her again. She had to get to know us again.
And then kind of your questions of what is normal, what is expected, those things change.
And then, you know, in the last several years I've had some folks really close to me, family and friends who were diagnosed with some forms of neurodivergence.
And those are some of my favorite places to kind of focus my attention right now.
Because it is those relationships, those experiences with these folks in my life are causing me to ask questions that I think are very similar to what is in your book. But just like in what ways are we kind of expecting people to live to get by, to work that for some people this is not how they thrive, you know, like this is not how they flourish. But it's not. That's not wrong.
And so how can we, you know, recognize systemic things which, you know, we'll talk about all of that. I hope but also just see these, see individuals, you know, and say, I see you.
You know, how can I be supportive of flipping the script on some of these things to encourage flourishing, of thriving?
You know, the ways that it is best, you know, for you to do things that the system isn't set up that way for. So you had similar experiences and you talk about that kind of early on. So I'm hoping that you'll share a little bit of how you came to ask some of these questions that. Because when you send an invitation, that's really what I felt a lot of this book is, is like asking a lot of really good questions. I didn't feel like this is some sort of like step by step guide to whatever. I really felt like it's an invitation to asking better questions about how we're currently living and why, how we might be able to do things better and more lovingly.
So anyway, so I've shared a couple of mine, but I'm wondering if you'll share some of yours and maybe those things, maybe there's some overlap, there's some places where our experiences might resonate with each other that kind of drew you to asking some of these questions and writing them down for us.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
Thanks, Alexis.
The book's only been out for a few weeks and so it's really fun to hear.
I was at a book event last week and people were coming up with their little books to be signed and everyone had a story.
A story of one of them works in accessibility at a college and is trying to help people with a disability or neurodivergence thrive and find the accommodations they need so that they can be successful. And another person with a whole stack of books for me to sign for each. All these different carefully chosen people that she'd picked that are dealing with depression or some kind of chronic condition.
And really she's hoping will will be companioned by the book. And so it's just great to hear where it resonates with people.
The origin story of the book really grew out of our family's experience of walking with our three kids who are all young adults now, making their way beautifully and wonderfully in the world in their all in their own unique ways. But adolescence was hard for all of them in different ways.
They struggled with anxiety and depression. And I do write about that and everything I share is with their permission and blessing. And that's one of the wonderful things about Gen Z. And I think younger, you know, your, your kids age also is there's just such a no nonsense Kind of matter of fact kind of attitude in more so, I mean, I'm sure there's still stigma, but you know, that was just not the case when I was, was their age. And I'm so glad that our, our world is evolving in that.
At the same time, what we realized in walking with them in that is that a lot of the, the things that would cause anxiety or that they would get hung up on were, were not inherent to them but were a mismatch between the way they're, they processed the world and the world around them.
And for example, if you are someone who's neurodivergent, if you do have sensory issues, being in a typical large, I mean the, the schools, the high schools in the area where I live are 3,4000 students. They're huge, they're loud, they are seven hours a day. And then you go home to several hours of homework. The expectation is that you will take the hardest classes and you will dig into that. So you get into the good college. It's just this, you know, the treadmill that just keeps going through, you know, what it means to be a successful human in the world. And so what we came to realize is this is not an individual problem to figure out. I mean it is that in terms of how do we cope in the world as it is. But let's also imagine a world that doesn't have these default assumptions of here's what it means to, to live the good life. And if you can't thrive in the system as it's set up, that's on you to figure out. And I think I say early in the book that our job as parents or as anyone who cares for young people in your life is we prepare them for the world. But let's also prepare the world for them and question, as you said, ask questions about the, the structures that we take for granted and how can we build something different. And so whether we are part of religious communities or just organizations in our own communities, looking critically at the world that we've inherited and some of us have created and had a hand in creating, how can we create something different?
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
You early on in the book talk about, well, there were two stories and I realized I flip flopped them, but I'm going to keep them flip flopped here.
And you talk about, you're overheard a conversation with someone that you kind of dubbed Airport Guy.
And Airport Guy. I'm like, listen, I'm Airport Guy. I mean I and I shared with you prerecorded. I'm Like, I kind of think many of us are airport guy until we're not.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Until we're not, right?
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Until we hit some kind of obstacle that we're like, oh, yeah, this, this isn't working anymore.
Tell us about airport.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I was going somewhere on a speaking event and someone was.
It was a guy with a colleague. They seemed like business colleagues and they were running through TSA PreCheck, you know, waiting for their bags. And one of them was talking about his college sophomore. I don't, I don't remember the details. It's in the book. But like, the colleague said, well, what, what, what year is he in college again? He said, well, he's in his second year, but he's basically a senior because he had just, I don't know how many dozen AP credits that he came to college with.
And this was at a moment where things were really hard for our family. And my, my kids are all very bright, very creative and, and driven in many ways, but just kind of hit a wall. And, and a lot of it was kind of, again, the, the.
The mold of academic achievement looks a certain way, and it just was not.
Was not working for our kids. And so it just got me thinking about what I noticed in him was just this very kind of breezy, easy manner of like, it all just. It all just is working. And, and I fully admit that is maybe a huge projection. Like, is he gonna. In the TSA line, you know, say, actually it's been really hard and my kids just, you know, stressed out and, you know, all this, it'. So it was just such a tiny snippet of conversation, but for me, it became kind of an avatar for how so many of us in the service of wanting our kids to have whatever we consider the good life, we encourage, we push, we, you know, have them strive.
And for many people who don't, who don't fit the way that striving is constructed, we're going to hit a wall and it's not going to work. And there are many people who is never worked for.
And how do we.
How. What does that say about what kind of humanity we value?
How do we. What are the implicit assumptions we make about what is normal and what is typical?
And so, yeah, it, it really just encapsulated for me a lot of what I. Because I'm same. Like, I. Our kids really thrived and were very successful, however you consider success. You know, they did well in school and until again, until they didn't and until the conditions changed such that their way of coping and masking some of the neurodivergence that they had just didn't work anymore. And what I hope is, I mean that was our entry point is our kids mental health and their own quirky brains. But it became a.
It's not just about that. It's about all of the ways people don't fit the norm, whether it's able bodiedness or race or gender identity, all of these things that we bring to what it means to be human. And how can we.
In what ways are we really looking at a kind of a specific sliver of humanity and saying this is the default and we want to make room for people who are outside the default? What if we just blew up the default altogether and just said we're all just, you know, our own unique selves and, and how do we find our way in the midst of that?
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, oh my gosh, I feel like there's, there's like so much I want to say right there just in that, just in that conversation of, you know, I would even just say briefly, like, I have kind of told some of my kids, you know, like, hey, I think the system sucks, but this is the current system.
And so it's kind of like, how can you know? It's, it's like, how do you coach, you know, your kids where it's like, should it be like, decisions between like watching a movie or studying for a math test when you're 15 could have serious implications for like choices that you have for furthering your education or not or career when you're 18 or 20 or 22. It's just like, it just. Anyway, it just blows my mind. It's very, very frustrating. But I am grateful, as you mentioned, for kids and, well, young adults now. But your, your kids age and my kids ages who are just. I don't feel like they're up for it. Many of them are like, nah, like, we don't want to play this way anymore. So I'm grateful and I'm hopeful that they will be in the seats, you know, to try and, to try and change some of those things. But when I think about back to some of it and I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get us to our next place. But a couple of these things just came to my mind.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: I even think of these like old adages. So give an example again, someone who, like, admittedly, I've got some type A tendencies. Admittedly, my natural bent, if I'm not thinking about stuff is like, I Just want to do things by the rules, you know, whatever. That's kind of me. Okay, that's fine.
But early to bed, early to rise, you know, this kind of thing of like, this is what you do. You are like, you, like, you go to bed at a reasonable hour, you get your eight or seven if you can, you get up early at the, you know, butt crack of dawn, you sit down, you have your coffee, you read your book, you know, whatever, you do what you need to do. Um, and then, and, and then you're productive, which we'll get there. But you, you know that you're productive during the day. And then a few years ago, I was chatting with someone again, close, when these close relationships, who had an adult diagnosis of a form of neurodivergence. And she's like, yeah, that's just not me.
That's just not how I work, you know, really, I am like on the verge of being nocturnal, Right. So she's like, it doesn't. That, that whole thing. No.
And I get my bursts of energy sometimes 11:12, 1:00 in the morning.
And.
But, man, I'll tell you.
And that's when I get my focus so I can burn through some stuff at one o' clock in the morning.
I'm like, I can't even keep my eyelids open. I can't keep my eyelids open at 10:30.
Like, are you joking me? But because of these systems and these paradigms, I was.
The way that I operate was affirmed for me my whole life. And the way that she operates was not affirmed for her. It was. There's something wrong with you and the way that you operate because you don't fit this early to bed, early to rise, you know, kind of thing when really it's like, you know. But why.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yes, Right. Yeah, yeah, there, there's there's so much in that you've. I mean, that's just such a perfect example. And it's, it's a small one in some ways because it's not a life or death thing. But for people who do, I mean, and that is something, as I understand, especially adhd, but I think other kind of forms of neurodivergence too. Yeah, the brain really switches on at those, in those wee hours. And, and if you're gonna get a, you know, decent amount of sleep. Yeah, you're gonna sleep in. Which we've always. I mean, this is our Protestant work ethic, right. It's like you sleeping in is slothful.
So then we. I had this whole sort of sin aspect to it. Right. Too. Of like you're not up and atom and, and I mean, my husband right now is working for a company where the software engineers are located in Hungary.
And so we live on the east coast. And so meetings have to be accommodated based on the time zone. Right. Can we also think about a way to accommodate work schedules and things to accommodate people's needs, internal needs, in addition to where they're located in. In time and space. Right. So it, you know, it can easily get very overwhelming. I mean, there are so, you know, there are, there are reasons we work with this kind of baseline of default and there's a bell curve and you kind of want to. Your systems to work for the most number of people. I, I get all that. But when we do have the freedom to, to think about how people operate and, and the ways that, you know, we do things differently for the, for the sake of, of folks who are wired differently and in all kinds of ways, it can really liberate all of us.
And I was just thinking the other day, and this is not in the book. This is the problem with writing a book is you kind of. There's a deadline, you get it done, and then you, you come up with all these additional ideas and examples and things.
But the idea of the contemplative value of silence and kind of stillness and we are. That is ingrained in a lot of our faith traditions that like, you know, sit in silence and contemplate and do centering prayer, 15 minutes a day, whatever, whatever. And for some people, that is deeply agitating to be. And actually when they are singing or humming or doing something like that, they're actually very settled in their nervous systems, but it looks like they're agitated.
And I am in a religious tradition that's very like, sit quietly, listen to a sermon, get up, sing a hymn, you know, and that in what ways do any of our forms of. Of being together religiously?
How do they invite people in and how do they set expectations that this is what holiness looks like? Right. So that's just another example of kind of how we, how we can open that up. And I think in some creative ways.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you're. You're right on.
Oh, my gosh. I'm looking at my notepad and I'm like, Marianne, there's no way.
But we're going to try. We're going to do our best.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: But I want to say a little bit to say I had the two people switched where I didn't know if I was Going to go airport guy and the Cambodian guy. So I feel like we may have to skip Cambodian guy. We've kind of talked about him. Get the boat. Read about Cambodian guy. Yes, but Cambodian guy and the rice patties. But you break the book up into.
Into a couple of sections. One is on individual values and one is on communal values.
And I thought that that was really helpful. And also I felt like there's a lot of Venn diagram there, that it's like that some of these, you know, you're, like, looking at it and you're like, okay, well, we have these communal values because we have these individual values that kind of feed into that, at least in some ways.
But I do think that it matters.
This is me kind of talking to think which is. Which is sometimes trouble. But.
But I think it. It matters because we can look at something and say, okay, this is just like the way the system is set up.
And there is some, like, inertia to that, I guess. But I'm like, but is the system going to be maintainable in that way if we all don't carry these values that feed into whatever those communal values or those. Or those systems are? You know, I mean, some of it is just kind of default, but I think. I don't know, I just feel like we're not going to stand by the default if we don't actually. Yes, you know, kind of share some of those values.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: But
[00:23:46] Speaker A: the individual ones, everything in the book hit me. I have notes on literally every chapter. I have way more in the book than I could fit on my note page. But some of the individual ones, I would say, are.
They're.
They're societal.
But I want to talk to you as a pastor, because they are also, I feel like spiritual values.
And you do talk about those some in the book. But I will just say some that were ingrained in me, even if they were my natural bent, they were affirmed in my religious spaces.
And those individual ones, for me, were certainty.
Oh, my goodness, let's just. I feel like we'll just do a whole stinking episode on certainty.
But you talk about certainty moving from this value of certainty individually to curiosity, comfort.
And there's more to be said there. But, yes. Right.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: We can unpack that if you want, but yeah, because that's a tricky one.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: But yes.
And productivity, when you just named the Protestant work ethic, like, these are things that are not just societal. They're not just kind of American Dream kind of things, but they really are also for many folks who listen to the podcast. And for me there are like these religious, like these spiritual values. And that gets super tricky. Yes, that gets super tricky because you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, if I shift this paradigm then. Or can I shift this paradigm? If I shift this paradigm, what does it say about God? What does it say about me? What does it say about the church? What does it say about how I interact with the world? You know, I just think there's a lot there that feels very weighty. And maybe that's part of the reason for some of these things sticking around for so long is, you know, I think there's some people out there like me, who kind of feel married to them, and it takes a lot to undo that.
This is 101 for many folks, and for me it's getting to be more familiar. But 100 years ago, when I was, I guess, I mean, I was probably partially deconstructing, we didn't use that word back then as much, but I was in therapy and my therapist was very kind to me all of these years, and she said, gosh, you're. I encourage you to go through some of these things that you're, that you're questioning and just take them to Jesus and say what stays and what goes, you know, and, and that's hard. That's hard to do, but maybe we can start there. And I'd say for me, one of the hardest ones. And I, I'm not saying I've let go, but in every, in every place, I'm still definitely a work in progress, but it is this certainty.
Becca McNeil in one of her books says we as. Especially as evangelicals and evangelical adjacent folks in the US we are certainty worshipers.
It's the phrase she uses. I love it. I felt so seen by that.
But I'm wondering if you can talk about how this individual value of certainty, I don't want to say like, as opposed to, but in, in contrast to curiosity, feeds into some of the, the problems that we were, that we were just talking about.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Right? Yep.
Yeah. I really felt like it was important to start with certainty because until you start to question the things that you hold to and, and can kind of at least loosen your grip, if not let them go of them all together, the rest of them are not going to, to.
You're not gonna be able to do anything with them. And I will say it with the, the two sections of the book, the kind of individual. More individual, because I think you're right. There's. There's certainly overlap and the more Communal ones that came completely by accident. I was, I knew I wanted to do paired like we want an antidote to certainty, and curiosity is the antidote. I knew it was going to be from this to this. But the idea that some of them were more things that I can do internally, even if the world around me doesn't change at all, I can work on what, what certainties am I clinging to?
And I love the way your therapist framed that, because there are certain things. And same with comfort. Right. You know, that was a hard section to write because I don't want to say that all comfort is, is unnecessary or is even bad is.
I mean, one of our ancient confessions says, what is our comfort in life and in death? It is that we belong to God. That's comfort. Right?
But when we insist on our comfort to the exclusion of others who don't conform, who, who are different, and we just say, well, that's, that's not a good way to be. That's. That's the problem. Right. So anyway, starting with. With that certainty. But as you were talking, I was thinking about a conversation I'm having with some, some pastor colleagues around an upcoming sermon that, that people are preparing on a particular scripture text and, and where they're, they're seeing the, the role of idolatry, which I'm, I'm a Presbyterian. That's a big buzzword for us is like, what are we, what are we putting our hope and worship and trust in to the exclusion of God. And we all have those things. We all have those things that we, we substitute whether we think we're, you know, like the, the, the kind of more evangelical certainty of like it's the certainty that we're worshiping not our mysterious God, not Jesus, who's going to help you figure out what you can sort through, what you can let go of, what you can be, what you need to, to hold on to.
We all have that. I mean, that, that stretches across the theological, philosophical, political gamut.
We all have our certainties. They come, they look different in different kind of camps that we find ourselves in. But, but that is, I mean, again, you know, Airport guy was just the example for me of, of again, this, this, that I may be completely projecting onto him the idea that, you know, he's got it all figured out and he is one at life. You know, by doing, by doing these particular things, you get the outcome that you want, and we just know that the world is way more complex than that. So just throwing that into, into sharp relief that that's Just not the way the world works for a lot of people who, who don't have advantages and privileges that, that, that others do.
So, so I think it can start, I guess when I discovered that I was like, oh wow, I can have two sections to this book. It does feel like the problem feels so overwhelming that we can at least start with ourselves.
And once we have started to take those steps, then we find the co conspirators that can do this work on a more systemic level.
So it felt important to start with those, those kind of certainties and, and then just again giving way to the curiosity of, of just asking what if, what if, what if it isn't that way?
What would that mean for us?
[00:31:29] Speaker A: So I think the part that hit me in the curiosity section the hardest probably is, is something that it's, you know, I've been sitting with for a long time again because, because you know, I was airport guy until I wasn't and then, and then that's in different areas too because I'm still airport guy, you know, in these other areas. And then, you know, and then I won't be.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: Great point. Right point.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: But, but it's to get curious about, about pain.
And I, I think I, I really hope. It seems to me there's some evidence that we're getting better about that as, as a society, as communities, you know, I think in my little, you know, as, as, as the social media curates my, my feed in my silo, you know, it's showing up just with the news, you know, of kind of like we're just, we're all just out here trying to make it, you know, and even if things are going pretty well, like in our personal lives, we're walking around these like heavy, you know, global and national burdens, you know, on us just by virtue of the news, you know, why I still let the Times give me updates on my watch, I'll never know, you know, because everything's breaking, but I haven't stopped it, you know, But I, I think that there is a, I hope that, that we're becoming compelled to, to get curious about each other's pain, whether it's stuff we can see or stuff we can't see, you know, and so I'm wondering, and you can feel free to talk about any part of that curiosity that you want. That was just kind of really what hit me. And then in addition, kind of what we've already touched on, but kind of the antidote to kind of this certainty driven spirituality to become this curiosity centered spirituality. I Will say when I. I think it's still in some of the blurbs out there. It might even be on my website. I'm not sure.
But when I started this podcast, that was actually one of the things that I. That I put in writing, you know, for myself and for this is I'd kind of moved from a Christianity where I felt compelled to have all the right answers to saying, I wonder even this is a question, right? I wonder if maybe it's not about that. I wonder if maybe it's about asking better questions. You know, can I be someone who does that contributes to the conversation in that way? Can I be someone who encourages other Christians to not be so concerned about whether or not we're getting stuff right?
But just to ask more questions is probably step one for me.
And then. And then better and better questions, you know, kind of I was. As we move forward and even that value judgment feels weird to me. But, you know, but just, you know, to become curious and to ask those questions, which I think is really a struggle for some folks like me to do that in a spiritual setting. So, yeah, curiosity about pain, curious spirituality, or anything you want to say in
[00:35:08] Speaker B: that curiosity realm, I love that. Actually started taking some notes because I didn't want to lose my train of thought because there's so much to say there. But my colleague that I serve with in the congregation that we serve preached a few days ago on John 14. I am the way, the truth and the life. And I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church where we knew what that meant. And that is, I mean, the next part of that. No one comes to the Father but through me. And so it's the kind of exclusivist idea of you must pray the sinner's prayer. You know, I mean, sort of there are these hoops, right, that you jump through.
And I, I love. I mean, if you, if you think about Jesus telling it, you know, identifying himself as way and truth and life. And then we have course at the end of John when he's there with Pilate and you know, and Pilate says, what is truth?
And Jesus doesn't answer. He just. As Frederick Bugner says, he just stands there and the implication is clear, I am the truth. And. And you can read that as a. You need to follow, you know, you need to follow Jesus as a Christian and pray the sinner's prayer and be. Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Or you can say, look to the life of Jesus to know how truth is embodied in this world. And that's Spoiler alert. That's where I land in that kind of either. I don't, doesn't need to be an either or. But for me it's it that just resonates with how I understand Jesus work in the world and his, his presence, who that remains to this day. And so I think that the way of Jesus and the truth of Jesus and the life of Jesus is, is wildly open ended and gracious to receive a variety of different kinds of people that he encountered in his life. And sure he had very pointed things to say to certain, certain folks, but also was always in a kind of, I think an expansive kind of posture of, of who is on the outside and, and how can we listen and tend to the, to those folks.
As I was writing the book I was really thinking about is empathy or compassion one of these virtues that we need to be moving towards. And I finally decided that I think that's the overarching one for, for all of the virtues that, that I want to lift up, curiosity and courage and presence and authenticity and beauty and community, compassion or empathy, however you want to frame that is what drives it all together.
Now you were asking about pain and getting curious about pain and there's a section in the book about, about that a person who was dealing with like debilitating tinnitus where he just was hearing this sort of freight train in his ear and he was told by a therapist, could you get curious about this instead of fighting it. And I think that's where I think about this idea of getting curious about pain is I spend a lot of time arguing with the world that is like it shouldn't be this way, right?
And there are certainly are a lot of injustices. I'm not saying that whatever, we don't care about those things. But I end up arguing with the world as it is.
And instead of saying, well this is the reality now what, what is that inviting me to what am. What is God calling me to do with this?
And instead of kind of pushing against something that I cannot change. I'm a big believer in the serenity prayer. And I can't remember it's been in multiple books because it's just been a through line in my life and I can't remember if it ended up in better than normal or not, but certainly in my previous one of having the discernment to know what we can control and what we can't and when we can, we want to lean in and be our best gracious, loving selves. And if we cannot change it to and so that. That, you know, thinking about pain and the. The world that comes in through our screens, there's a real tension of wanting to be informed, and we should be informed.
And there was somebody I read at the beginning of last year, like, right after the inauguration, that said, you're not serving people by, like, vigilance is not an action that benefits others. Right. So being as well informed as you can, like, if that leads you to, okay, I can serve in this way, then great. But if it's just, like, I need to know every detail about this scandal, you know, there's diminishing returns there, I guess. And that can be a kind of certainty, too. Like, I want. I want all the details. I want all the news so that I can control it and kind of feel like I have my arms around it. And to what end? Right.
What are we called to do to make the world right in the three feet around us as. As beautiful as possible?
[00:40:14] Speaker A: So, yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
Oh, my gosh.
I.
Can we skip comfort for now?
[00:40:29] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: I'm looking at my notes and I'm like, man, I want to skip it to go to productivity.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Yep, let's do it.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Gosh.
Because I hate it so much. I hate it as a list maker.
I hate it as a. As a. As a checklist person.
I've got legal pads. Just all. It's.
Yeah, they're just. They're just there and same.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: And let me. Let me preface where. I mean, I want to go wherever you want to go, but I also want to say, like, comfort was. Was challenging to write in the same way that productivity was, because in and of itself, it is not bad. I mean, we are called to be of service. Like, we. We should live lives that are useful to the world. World and put more good into the world than not.
And it's, again, going back to the idolatry thing when that becomes the. The primary measure of whether we are worthy of love. That's. Anyway, so, yeah, go for it, Alexis.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: You're right.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: I'm with you.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: You're right. I'm. I think because I want to bring up a couple of things that, like I said, you gave me some words in these chapters, and so I'm really grateful for them because I think it would have been. Because I've been sitting with some of these concepts for a little while, it would have been kind of easy for me to just kind of, like, read the chapter titles and be like, oh, yeah, yeah, see where she's going. But, well, I did not see where you were going in a lot of these places.
So I'm really glad that I, that I sat with this with my coffee. But, but productivity and presence both were one of those places. So I want to name.
I'm just going to kind of give you my three bullets on this one and then just let you. And then let you take it wherever you want to go.
So kind of three of the many things that stood out to me in this chapter, two on productivity and one on presence.
One was how you name how the most vulnerable among us kind of in my paraphrasing words, just like pay dearly when it comes to productivity. And you talk about specifically kind of the hidden costs, costs of poverty.
So, so that was one.
I put the page number for myself. So I'll say 56.
You talk about productivity being kind of a lizard brain level and that again, new helpful words there.
And then in the present section, at least I think it's in the present section, you.
You kind of talk about like grammatically using an ing instead of saying you have.
And you, you share a story of yourself having shingles, but then being encouraged to say you're shingling.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Yes, but, but I came from my therapist, so.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Right, right. I love our therapists. Right. They're so good. Yes, but I would say I,
[00:43:35] Speaker B: Yeah,
[00:43:35] Speaker A: I have felt that I experienced a loss recently. It's felt very, very profound.
And.
Yeah, and. And the difference kind of when you say, like we say I'm grieving, but then in all of these other things, we kind of just phrase it differently and it's like not really that different, you know, like to, to live through some of these experiences. So, so those are my bullet points on productivity to presence.
Go where you want, but I've got that vulnerable paying when it comes to productivity, productivity being lizard brain level stuff. And then your story about you shingling.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah, let me start with that one, because I think I've just been thinking about this recently and grief is such a good example. And I'm sorry, Alexis, for this loss that you are living through and experiencing and metabolizing that it doesn't follow. These things don't follow their own timeline. And I think part of what I, I think I write about this in the presence section is when someone's going through a difficulty. When we are story people, we, we want, We. We've got it. We want the beginning, middle, and end. And we love the kind of triumphant conclusion.
And so many of the conditions that we live with as human beings are, are chronic. And I'm not just talking about chronic illness, but just losses that will always be with us in some way.
And that doesn't mean it doesn't get better and that there's not healing and all of that, but, but to understand ourselves as people in process. And that's what saying I'm shingling does for me is just, that's what I need to focus on right now. Like, and the experience was, you know, I developed this case of shingles and, and it was a fairly mild case, but it still kind of knocked me flat. And so productivity me is like, well, I can still kind of push through.
And, and that was the caution from my therapist who said, you are, you are working right now. Your body is working to heal. Just let it do that. And that's why I think presence is a, is an antidote or, or an answer to, to too much productivity culture. Because again, it's not that we shouldn't be out doing good things for others and for ourselves, but when we are doing that to the exclusion of our own well being, that's when we're not listening to, we're not being present to what do I really need right now? And that's the piece like, yeah, I've got all the legal pads to Alexis. And what I'm working on is just because I can get it all into my calendar doesn't mean that I have the capacity to do it all. And that is okay. I'm working on it being okay. I don't feel great about it.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: I hear you. Can I interrupt?
[00:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: Because when you were talking, this is not, this is not on my legal pad. But, but it came to mind as you were talking because I think about, this isn't just a word for pastors or a question for pastors, but I think it's for us as friends and family members as we accompany folks. You know, pastors accompany folks.
I love M. Craig Barnes talks about a sermon being a conversation, you know, between, between the text and a community. And I love that. But, but you talk about how we're trained as pastors to, to speak or to preach from our scars and not necessarily from our wounds. And you know, I think about even in that case of shingles, like, oh my gosh, what if you had had someone who is kind of walking there with you to be like, yeah, this is, this is like hella itchy. And we're, we're just like sitting here together. It's painful. It's, you know, it's all the things.
But, you know, I, I think about how because, because in another in and I think it was my first homiletics course. I read this wonderful edited volume and I can't remember, I think it's called Birthing the Sermon but it's a bunch of women essays.
And so in addition to that caution which I think is a fair caution and you kind of, you kind of recognize that as well.
There's an, there's another piece of advice that I think about when I'm writing sermons which is when we're giving the personal examples. So I say this to all of us as we accompany one another to share those like where the community might also be able to say me too.
And I think that sometimes it does help. As you're saying, we don't have to be entirely healed to scar.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: Before we can share some of those things.
Maybe not publicly but even in the, even in the context of, of accompanying one another and that this presence, you know, piece of. We don't have to be at the end of grief. What does that look like anyway to come along side and accompany someone who is grieving.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: And so it's. Anyway, I just wanted to kind of like bring that up in this. I don't remember which section it was in to be.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I, I don't either but I, I.
You, you've summarized well my, my bit of discomfort with that idea and I understand it. We have to have good boundaries as, as pastors, as people in helping professions. But yeah. There are some wounds that, that, that take a long time to heal and I think that if we're doing our work and that you know, I kind of, I hope that I said this clearly enough that we need to be doing our own work if we're going to preach from things that are still in a bit of a wounded, wounded kind of place.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: But it's, it's too, it can be tempting to be like. Because then we put a nice little bow on it. We've got our scars and it's like you'll get through it. I got through it. And sometimes getting through is, is just living with something.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: Right. Yes.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: And I think going back to what you were asking about the kind of lizard brain idea of productivity is. I do think as we were talking about this Protestant work ethic like we, we have been steeped in this culture for so long that we are kind of, sometimes our, our first instinct is thug it out is what my, my Gen Z kids say. They don't you, they don't do it. But this is the phrase. Right. We're gonna just thug it out.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: That's hilarious because I'm thinking is this the same as us saying suck it up?
[00:49:58] Speaker B: I feel like this, right? Yeah, yeah. Or yeah, just do it right?
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Oh, I'm gonna say that to my Nike. I'm gonna pick them up today and say that I can't wait.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll see if it's like how pervasive it is. But. But you know my three that this is kind of the, this is the what we're socialized to do and so. And that is a very ill considered sometimes. Sometimes we, we need to take the time and. And I like I have to remind myself, myself that that's not wasted time. And sometimes if I'm really I. I can beat my head against a problem or I can take a step back and then when I come back to the problem it's like the solution just appears weird while I was off taking a nap, you know. And it doesn't always happen that way but it, you know, that's an important piece of this as well is just to trust the mystery of the unfolding that the spirit will often surprise us. Not always again but like.
Yeah, so, so yeah, that's I think where presence and productivity kind of dance with each other. Just how to do that.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: I'm going to take us. I'm like looking at the time, I'm like oh my gosh, I'm going to have to talk like the micro machines
[00:51:13] Speaker B: guy and I will try to do the same.
[00:51:17] Speaker A: We have so much I want to admit first. Oh my gosh. There's so much good stuff in the communal part two. Yeah, let's start here.
I had to wait for artifice to be defined.
I didn't know that word was not in my like vocabulary. I couldn't pull it quick enough.
But I loved the story that you started with there because I feel like again like I'm just airport guy, you know, until I'm not and then it's these kinds of things. And I think that kind of goes back to maybe even like the first thing I shared of like I really tried when I had those babies. You know, I think I even told my mom I went five months and I didn't lose one baby sock.
That's not maintainable, folks. Yeah, that's just not maintainable. I mean come, please come to my house right now. I don't have any babies. I have a bunch of growing people and we probably haven't lost any socks because they're literally all over the house. Right?
[00:52:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. Yeah. You can't lose them. They're just. Just sitting there.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: You can't lose them. They're just sitting there in plain sight, you know, so. Thank you.
But the. The story of the baptismal water, if you want to. If you want to share that briefly. But it's just. I went. Once I started reading, I was like, oh, this is great. This is what this is. I will say one thing on this. You talk about it in this. Your section on Jesus and crucifixion. This phrase that I love to. Just when we can't run away from our creatureliness, which is so great. I just. I, like. I just. I'm getting to the point where I don't want to, you know.
[00:52:57] Speaker B: Yeah, you could do it all right. And still lose a sock, right? Because it. It. I don't know. It got lost in the yard, and then a dog came by and ate it. You know, like, we grade each other and ourselves on these really impossible curves. So the. Yeah.
I was speaking at a church, and they were having a baptism that day, and they. They don't baptize with immersion. We have a little bowl, and people do the sprinkling on the head, and the picture wasn't there.
And they realized this after the service had started. So they had. They found a way to make it work, and it was really so smooth. I didn't even know there was a mistake. It just felt like they just walked in with the picture, and I was like, wow, it's beautiful. And that was totally improvised.
And.
And this church, as it turned out, is kind of one of those big, fluffy sort of churches that takes itself very seriously. And so the pastor apologized to the council of elders and said, you know, I. I fell down on the job here. Didn't make sure everything was in place, and I didn't even know if people noticed. And maybe. Or maybe they did, and they were like, thank goodness this guy apologized, because he really. He really blew it, you know? And I just thought, wow. Because what happened was so.
It just had such a great kind of crackling energy to it, you know, that I was just convinced that they always did it this way. And so insisting that things be excellent and perfect and that's just an artificiality that I think I can't. It's just too exhausting to live. I mean, you got to a point at some point, Alexis, where you were, like, trying to keep track of these dang socks.
I mean, some of them are just gonna just. It's just gonna be what it is. And now you've got, you know, adolescents in your house that are just like, big feelings, big equip. I don't know, lacrosse, whatever they're doing, it's just everywhere, and it's real. And that's hard for those of us who like to kind of maybe keep it orderly. But it's also. What's the alternative? It's just too tiring to try to keep that up.
[00:55:03] Speaker A: It's too tiring. It's too tiring. And it's not real.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: It's not real.
[00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just.
It's just not real. And I think that's part of the thing that, you know, I struggle with it. I don't know if other folks might be too, where it's like, it's not real, but we kind of want it to be.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it goes back to the comfort thing. Right. It just feels manageable. Life just feels. Feels manageable and. And, yeah, like, understandable. I mean, we. And with the world just going crazy all the time, like, yeah, of course we want that.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: And to the extent that it feels that it's authentic, fine. You know, but it's often not. It's keeping up appearances.
That's right.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: That's right. Okay. I think we have a couple minutes if you do.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:55:56] Speaker A: I wanna.
So I wanna. I wanna go to this last section of Competition to Community, and I'll give you my bullet points. But before I do, I usually end with something like this. So I'm gonna prep you. I'm gonna prime you so that you have a little bit more time to think about it. But there's so much here. I usually ask folks something like, what's the question? I didn't ask you?
So be thinking about if there's something extra that you want to share. You know, when. When we kind of end this Competition and Community section, and then I just welcome you to, you know, kind of end us that way. Okay.
My bullet points. Oh, my gosh. There's so much. Oh, we didn't even get to blame Us in Beauty. Oh, my gosh. Grab the book. It's. It's a. It's a brief little volume, and it's beautiful. And it's just a wonderful length to cover all these things. And Marianne does so. So concisely and beautifully that you won't regret it. But competition to Community, a couple of things that I jotted down were competition included in that is a stingy. I think that's the word you use, a stingy view of justice. And that just really that one just really got me.
And as this person who has some type A tendencies, the idea that we would have fewer gold standards defaults.
[00:57:16] Speaker B: I don't like it either, just so we're clear.
[00:57:19] Speaker A: But I think it's great. I mean, you know, I really do think it's great. I loved your calculus example, which I might want to. I might want to camp there when, you know, just for, like, just for a second, this calculus in high school example, because I. Because I actually have a story on that for myself.
And then this.
You talk about, in your tradition, having a rainbow flag, and you talk about it being not like a marketing kind of symbol, but more of a symbol of repentance included in that Community section.
And then you end with Steve Colbert on Crashing Together. And I will throw out. I listen to.
This is kind of horrible. There's so many podcasts. I listen. I'm a podcaster. I listen to, like, three podcasts, but one of the ones that's on my rotation right now is Good Hang with Amy Poehler.
And in the episode where she interviews Steve Carell, she talked to Steve Colbert beforehand. And I think they both maybe talk about that kind of thing. But the three of them, or at least the two of them, Amy and Steve, just.
You can feel the joy in their conversation as they talk about just ultimate failure in their craft.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: Like, these are the things that they are known for and good at. And they talk about some of the most fun moments in their careers.
You know, some of the most fun communal moments of being just. Just biting it.
[00:59:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: Together.
And so. Yeah. So anyway. So. So I love that. So, again, kind of the same as before. Those are my bullet points. Where do you. Where would. Where would you like to elaborate?
[00:59:09] Speaker B: Well, I think you. You summarize that piece so well, and it really is when you have the trust in it, because that's what you need in those kind of improvised moments. And that's what they're all talking about in these moments of what. What does he call it? Absolute crashing failure.
How can you not just laugh and love it? Because you love each other. And that's where. What we're trying to get to with Community.
Yeah. The rainbow flag. I mean, we're, you know, Pride Month's coming up next month, and so this will. I mean, we have signage out that that's permanent, but then we'll. We'll put the flag up, and I'm sure people will ask about it, like, why are we appealing to a particular group of people? Why all are welcome. Right.
And for me, it really is a statement of a population that has been excluded.
And so we need to not assume that when we say all people know that we're talking about them, and to say we have some.
Well, we have some baggage and people who have been excluded or have been told that their very being is. Is sinful at its core.
We have a theological overcorrection, I think, that we need to make to. To say we have. We have in our preaching, preached harm. Preached harm. And now we need to. To find a new way.
So.
So that's that piece. Yeah. The calculus thing blew me away when I heard it. And that is simply. I.
I mean, I took calculus in high school and then became an English major. Why did I do that? Because it's just what you did if you were a certain kind of student. And when I was graduating, I think the statistic was 30,000 high school students took calculus.
And calculus became an important. It became the gold standard of college readiness during the Cold War when we were. I mean, calculus is important for building rockets and the arms race.
And we live in a different world now where those. I mean, there's still threats and we still need to, you know, be thoughtful about that. But calculus remained as the thing, and there are so many disciplines now that are becoming important in much greater ways, but it's still the standard. And I think the statistic that I heard that really blew me away is that I don't know what year it was, but recently 180,000 students, high schoolers, take calculus now. And it is because this is how you show you're ready for college.
Why? Like, why? It's a. That's a remnant of a. Of a former world that we don't live in anymore. There are things like statistics and maybe even sort of computer systems and things that are more important. Maybe it's going to be AI now, I don't know. But the calculus remains. And so even little things like that, that we just take for granted. And I'm not saying kids shouldn't take calculus, but know that this is a kind of a remnant of an old world that, that we may need to. To examine. So, so moving from, you know, when you mentioned this kind of stinginess, it really is trusting in God's abundance to say, and this is the. This is the. The companion chapter to productivity. Right. So my own individual need to be a upstanding human in every way all the time gives way to a culture where we're all oriented that way.
And can we trust that there really is enough and that we don't have to hustle in a way that is. Does violence to ourselves and to the people around us. And that's really the. The question.
[01:03:09] Speaker A: So.
Yes, and amen to everything you just said.
My little short calculus example actually goes back to the artifice.
[01:03:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:03:17] Speaker A: Um, so I'm going to tattletail. My. My kids be like, mom, snitches get stitches. I know, but, you know, it's been 20 some years, so it's fine.
I. This is not a flex. And you'll hear, this is not a flex. I got the calculus award in high school. Hey, I took. No, it's not a flex. I is not.
I took it in high school. I took it my senior year, but I took AP calculus and did not take the AP exam because I knew.
[01:03:44] Speaker B: I didn't either.
[01:03:45] Speaker A: I did not know it.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: I was like, I do not know this material. Like, I do not know this material. And in my high school, usually the person who gets the award is the one with the highest average. While my teacher, who this was her first year teaching calculus, I grew up in Southern Oklahoma, so it's very much a bless your heart situation for her.
She basically like pulled me aside like, you're getting the award, but you do not have the highest average. Now I'm gonna have like a 94 or something like that. But she was like, you don't have the highest average. But basically she's like, I know you didn't cheat because basically everyone else in the class was cheating and because like you said, this is what's expected.
[01:04:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:04:24] Speaker A: Like it's expected that you will take calculus and it's expected that you will get a good grade in this. And when you commented that some of us. And I would put myself in this category, my brain, I don't know that my brain is developed enough to know calculus or study calculus now. But it sure wasn't when I was 17 for sure that just look at my college transcript when I retook it and you can see that clearly I was not ready for it then either. Same, but it just was, you know, and again then I. Then I go on to study everything in the realm of humanities and liberal arts and, you know, all of these things. I did not need calculus. I don't need calculus. I'm grateful for calculus. My husband does calculus every day.
In fact, I joked with him 100 years ago when he was talk, he said an off comment, just off the cuff. He said something about calculus being discovered. And I was like, I so sorry, but I really thought that calculus was just made up. Like, it's just. And he's like, no, no, no, babe. This is like, it was a discovery. I was like, that means it's real. And it did not feel real to me. Like, it did not feel like a discovery to me. Like, it really felt like it came out of someone's imagination, which is how little I understood it. But I was one of those. I guess moving on that train towards this is the expectation. Now and then you have to. You know that you're. You're striving for it. You know, how many math classes can you take and how can you prep? Because it's exactly as you said. This is some sort of litmus test. It's telling you whether or not you're ready for college. And I'm like, I'm here to tell you it's not a flex. I got the calculus award. That did not mean I was ready for college.
I wasn't. But that's a whole other story. But.
But I just. What you're talking about, it just amazes me, the examples that you give, because it's just present everywhere.
[01:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:08] Speaker A: These communal and individual values. But especially these communal ones that you bring up. They're present every. Everywhere. Even these little things that we probably don't even think about if we have kids in high school.
We don't even think about that. I don't. I didn't know the history of why calculus became a thing until I read it in your book.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just his. Yeah. It was a mental health professional who was talking to a group of parents here in Northern Virginia, which is one of those epicenters in the country of just super high achievement. Very type A.
And.
And it was an example of.
This is a little bit of a digression, but she put a slide up for us. And on one side, I may even have this in the book. There's a person trying to cross a river on a log, and it's like a raging river underneath them. And the. And the implication is one wrong step and you're going over the log. Right. And she said, we so often think this is how we're raising our. Like, we need to get them across the river. And there's this one path. And she said, this is what parenting is actually like. And it was like a desert vista with, like, three different roads kind of going off into the. Into the horizon. And it was. I will never forget it, because that. That is what I was feeling so oppressed by is like, I've got to get them on the right path. And it's like there is no one right path. There are many different things paths. And this was a psychologist who taught us this. She said, I have a colleague, an office full of colleagues and none of us got here the same way as anyone else.
What a relief. Yes. Right.
And I think to answer your question of kind of what, what remains unstead, unsaid or unasked, that's the piece that really excites me about this work and it finding its way into the world is because there are people who don't fit the default and we do a lot of this work on their behalf. So to, to make a space for all kinds of human flourishing. But the good news is that this sets us free as well.
That, that whether you fit or not, that can feel like a, like a cage.
And when we free, when we, when we do the work to help free others, we free ourselves as well.
And so whether that's an appeal to people's self interest, perhaps, but, but I think the, the true liberating power of this work and the liberating power of, of the gospel for those who are in the Christian family, the tradition is that it's, you know, I can't remember who it was who said if it's not good news for everyone, it's not good news.
So I hope that this book is good news for as, as many people as, as needed and, and for all of us. So that's, and I, I just do. Seeing people who are, who are interested in this work really gives me a great deal of, of encouragement and when I tell people the premise of the book, you know, hopefully, I mean, I did my best to kind of lay out some ways of thinking about it, but when I say here's the problem that the, that the book is trying to address, I get lots of nods and like people get it. And so that's the first step and that gives me a lot of encouragement as well is that people really are seeing it's just a lot that's not working for a lot of people.
[01:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh my God.
Thank you so much, Marianne.
[01:09:54] Speaker B: Thank you, Alexis.
[01:09:56] Speaker A: So, so beautiful. I'm going to say the name of the book again that is out now in the world and people can grab a copy of it. Of course I'll put that in the show notes where people can grab it specifically from the publisher but you know, grab it anywhere. You normally buy books Better than Normal Virtues for an Off Script Life by Marianne McKibben Dana, who has been my amazing guest today, Marianne. I'm just, I'm so appreciative of this work and for you sharing it with us. And yeah, I just wish you all the blessings as you continue in these conversations and in this work.
[01:10:29] Speaker B: You too. Thank you so much. This was a whole lot of fun. It was so great to talk with you.
[01:10:34] Speaker A: Thank you.
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[01:11:05] Speaker B: Sam.
