Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Okay. This is super, super fun for me, Bianca. I felt like when I was going through first I'll start off and say this is part of the series with IVP and made for packs in the Bible study series that we have this of the podcasting series that we have to go along with that. And when I was going through this mental health study by Dorcas Chang Tosen, there is a list of just like these gems of resources in the back and your you participated in a video panel that is listed in the back and it's connected to the Bible study and there's website for it. So we don't have to rehash that conversation.
But that is where I was first in introduced to your work. And I just want to say how incredibly grateful I am for what you're doing, but also just to the spirit that you bring to this work. So I want to by way of introduction, I just want to say thank you for coming on. Thank you for that. And can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work as a mental health practitioner as we get into this conversation?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia and my specialization is imperfectionism.
So working with a lot of high achievers, a lot of sense of not feeling like I'm enough, not doing enough, fears of failure and rejection.
And so my whole work that I do is guiding people to be their authentic self and connecting to their authentic self and developing awareness of their authentic self.
And then I also been trained to integrate faith spirituality predominantly with a Christian. But also if there's other faves, if people need that there's. There's also the aspect to a lot of the work that I do.
I'm also a believer too.
And then so the other a lot of the work I do in that is I come from this aspect of it's mental health. First I don't say like I'm a specifically a Christian council, we're going to look at the Bible.
And then a big part of the work when it comes to faith is your relationship with God and That's the lens that I work through. Everyone does something different, and that's a big part of the lens that I work, that I do.
And then the other thing I also do is I'm. I'm also a speaker. So it's still taking that perfectionism and the authenticity, whether it's to events, podcasts like yourself, creating corporate wellness as well, because there's a lot of the perfectionism and burned out, burnt out, burnout and so. And then I'm also a mentor to new therapists as well. So that's a bit about what I do. I am from London because people are like, wait, where's she from? So I'm from London, born and raised in London. I came to Atlanta as an adult, was only meant to be here for three years, and I've been here 19, changed my whole career and everything. That's not why I came for mental health. I went back to study.
And so my background is also from the Caribbean. My family is from the Caribbean. My parents are from the Caribbean. And so I have also the aspect also that comes in with being black, being an immigrant, being a first generation. So I have a lot of different aspects to me as a person that I can also bring into the counseling and faith and to the room.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Gosh, Bianca, first I want to say I feel like I could also have had you on for the migration study, but, you know, maybe. Maybe another. Another conversation for that. Second, I am going to do my absolute best to stay in podcast hosting mode because really what I want to do as a. I'll say I'll name some things about myself, really what I want to do as a firstborn daughter, type one who has some type A tendencies. I really just want to sit down and be like, tell me everything. Like, unpack me, Bianca, unpack me. But I won't. I'm gonna like, chill here. But when I say that, I say I. I imagine you're busy. Like the, like talking about, like perfectionism being one of the things that you specialize in. Like, I imagine that you're busy and I, in my imagination, especially with, I mean, I grew up in evangelical and evangelical adjacent spaces in the U.S.
i imagine there's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram. Culturally, in evangelical spaces.
I don't think it's just my personality that I have a bent towards that, but I think that there's culturally that perfectionism tendency.
Tendency towards perfectionism exists cultural, culturally in that space. Am I making that up? Am I imagining that?
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Are you talking about in faith? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to give an understanding of how I view it, everyone has their own definitions. And so it's. It's a thought, right? It's a way of thinking and believing.
And so it shows up in different areas of our lives. It's. I really don't use the term perfectionist because I feel like that's a person and that's not all who you are, but it's really this sense of exhausting cycle of trying to be enough.
And then the other part is we're trying to live up to the expectations of other people, right? So we can apply that to any other.
Any area of our lives, including the faith.
Sometimes there is the performance of just having this conversation.
Sometimes when you are in church, when you are in faith circles, it can feel like you're performing. Did you pray enough? Did you read your Bible enough?
Did you do your devotional? Did you attend church? And if you don't attend church, are you a good enough Christian? Because you didn't change it? Did you talk to God today? If you didn't talk to God today, are you a good. Are you even. Am I even still a Christian? Right?
And so. So am I doing enough? So that's how it can definitely show up.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Bianca. Oh, my goodness. I. Okay, so we're gonna get off of my mail right now, and we're gonna go to. We're going to open some other people's mail, or we'll just get out the mail altogether when we're. When I was going through this study, gosh, there's like, so many places that I want to hit today, and I think. I think we'll get to most of them.
One of the things that you brought up when you were talking about your own practice is mental health first. And you can integrate faith into that, but mental health first. And I'd love for you to talk about that. In your experience with varying kind of versions of Christianity, there's, I think, from. From many people, I would say maybe my age, a little older, too. Maybe there was this kind of like, if you're praying or all these things that you kind of listed. If you're praying, if you're going to church, if you're reading your Bible, you know, if you have enough faith, then that really should be enough.
We don't really need people like you.
We don't need a therapist. We don't need whatever, because Jesus is enough. Thankfully, I think that that barrier is breaking down, and I see it especially with younger Christians that are like, please get me A therapist, you know, all of that, which I think is fantastic. But I would just say, even for me, there was a big kind of mental, but also I think this like emotional and even a spiritual barrier for me that I had to cross over intentionally the first time I walked into a therapist office.
What have you seen when it comes to Christians seeking mental health services? Or maybe Christians not seeking mental health services?
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so both. Right. So I, so for the ones seeking it, they're seeking.
And I know they're seeking because I do my research on my SEO and I know that one of the top searches for my website is a black Christian therapist or black Christian female therapist. And I am top in Atlanta, so we're going to be specific in Atlanta.
So I know they're seeking. That is the number one thing when, when I'm looking at the Google, when I'm asking questions, people finding me on Google, when they find me on Google, that is the top search. They're not searching my name, they're searching for that specific search.
And so that's important to them. We know that they are seeking and they make it clear when we're having the conversations.
Um, and I'm seeing definitely more now, and we'll also speak at it because I, I, I also definitely I'm going to speak to the black community, right? In, especially in the South.
So you got the church community, then you got the black community in general where mental health is not also warmly accepted. And then you have it also now in the church too.
So it's very specific. You know, I said black Christian therapist, and so those things are important to them. And so it been in general in the community, not talked about.
This is actually worldwide. So even just being in America and then being in England and being in, in, you know, in the Caribbean community, that's just a thing, unfortunately.
But things are changing because people are speaking out, you have social media, people are being open about their experiences. You know, you can have therapy and you can have Jesus now. And so it is changing. Although there are people are still hesitant, there are still people who are questioning.
But I do definitely am seeing way more changes, way more openness to, oh, I can, I can have both. I can, I can do both. And sometimes it's in the sense that, like, I've tried everything and it's not working and I really need some help.
And sometimes it's like, okay, I've seen the change that's happened in my friends, and so it's, it's changing. I will say I. So I've been in the business for 10 years and when I went back, when I said I was telling people in the church I was going back, like I, it was, it was not easy. But I know what I was called to do. And 10 years now it's definitely changed from when I did it because people like why would you go back and do that?
[00:11:49] Speaker A: I think I, I've got maybe a comment and then another question along those lines. I would say so when I'm thinking about this, this study in particular in this, this series by Made for pacs, one of the things that they really have, have aimed to do and they do it well, I think is they create materials that are by bipoc Christians for bipoc Christians. And so Dorcas, who authored this study, is Asian American.
I have similar experiences. I'm mixed Hispanic. And so you've got like kind of three ethnic groups there where you're going, okay, we've, this is something that we see patterns in, you know, in each of these. And so I think it's fascinating to me, but I'm not surprised that that would be one of the top searches that would lead to, is black Christian therapists, all those. And then female, you know, on top of that.
So, so that's just like a comment as I see this. It's, it's in these varying communities. And I, I think you answered in, in part the, the, the question I had which is like, why do you think like when, when people come and sit across from you, like especially Christians, what is bringing them that maybe wouldn't have brought their parents or their older siblings or even themselves 10 years ago, like, why would, why, why are they starting to, to embrace and seeking these kinds of mental health services now where maybe they wouldn't have been or there would have been some sort of barrier before.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: People are talking about it more and there's more access, right?
People are sharing their stories. We have, you know, you can love it or like it, social media, I don't care what you say. There's, there's benefits, there's not benefits. But the bottom line is people are sharing and they're like, oh, you went, but you're a Christian. How did you.
But I thought you.
And they're like, well maybe I can go. And then now you have also you have Google.
So many people are sharing their stories and how it has helped them that it's opened the door and given other people permission to say, oh, it's okay for me to do this. Whereas before it was, was not talked about. Right. So even in, now in the churches, they talk about it more and they give it as an option. They're more open. So of course, if the pastor is saying it's okay, well, maybe I can consider it.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's part of what really struck me and continues. It continues to be a differentiation. And this is, this is part of what was in the panel that you guys talked about is the differences between, like, interacting with seeing an actual mental health practitioner versus talking to your pastor or having spiritual director or even just chatting with your best friend or your spouse or, you know, whatever. Like, they're like, there's a big, big difference between each, each one of those things. And therapy is. Well, for me, it has been necessary. I mean, if I just share, I, I'll share just a tiny bit of my own experience the very first time I set foot in a therapist office. And again, it was one of those where I, I grew up in, in Oklahoma. So like Bible Belt Central.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: And like everybody saved, you know, and whatever. And it's like you just, if you're going to go to a therapist office, then it's kind of like you're either in deep crisis or whatever. This is, I mean, this is also like, well, 15, 16, 17 years ago, something like that. I was working as a, a caseworker, a state caseworker, and I was doing child protective services.
Now way back when, I'm sure there was research, but we also, people didn't talk about it a lot, but this was like we were caseworkers were experiencing secondary trauma because we were seeing and working a lot of things that like general population is not having interactions in these kinds of ways. And you know, the average time I think when I was there was 18 months. Like, people got in and they were burned out quick. And so they were the states, all of them were going through caseworkers like, like crazy.
And, and a lot of us were young, so I was in my mid-20s when I was doing this. I had not seen anything. Like, I didn't, I didn't know anything.
And I was, I didn't know even what to call it then, but I was burned out.
And one of the things that, that our state offered us was three therapy visits a year kind of on the house. Now it's something.
Yeah, one enough. But it was something.
But almost no one took them up on it. And I look back now and I think this is, this is no way. No wonder everybody's burning out. No, hardly anyone took them up on it. And so I Got to the point where I was like, I was ready to quit. You know, it was all this kind of stuff. And my supervisor said, why don't you, like, you know, take a personal day because you could get the. You got the full day off. You know, you could go and you go to this thing.
And I am telling you, I am. I am embarrassed by how hesitant I was to go.
I just thought, what does this mean? I can't handle myself, you know, I can't. I can't do it on my own. I must not be strong enough. I must not be good enough for this job. You know, all of these kinds of things that were really, you know, kind of the self degradation, like, I can't. I can't do it.
But I also knew I couldn't continue the way I was.
So I, you know, bought myself lunch and got myself up and went to this therapist's office. And I don't remember a ton about it except for that I felt better after I talked about it. And. And he really, like, normalized the feelings I was having, you know, like, yeah, people shouldn't necessarily be able to do the kinds of work that you guys are doing day in and day out and just continue with their regular life. Like, these are pretty grave circumstances you guys are dealing with and what you're seeing. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, and then fast forward years later, and as a parent, I was interacting. I was encountering some things as a parent, and I really was kind of at the end of my rope. And I was like, I don't know what else to do. And I called a leader in this church parenting group I was a part of. And I just said, I don't really know what to do do. Can you help me? You know? And she said, we have a list of. Of great therapists. I think you might benefit, you know, from that. And it really was like I. I called, you know, who became the person who became my therapist. I called her that day, you know, and I was like, please, you know, help me. And.
And it was in. In from that point, even though I was still hesitant all of those years later.
I really credit my interactions with her, you know, just like I would any other health professional, you know, when I've seen, you know, had a relationship with a really good doctor, you know, or when I've had any of these other kinds of relationships where I'm just, you know, a good professor or a good pastor, you know, or something like that, I'm like, yes, this relationship and the work that we did. Because I don't want to say it's not work. It's a ton of work.
It's like, so much work.
So much work.
But that, you know, that work and that relationship saved me in a lot of ways. And I am irritated that there were what I feel like social wasn't just personal, but I think social and cultural barriers to me wanting to embrace that. You know, it's like, no one. If you have a broken arm, no one's like, well, if you have to go to the er, you're not really tough. You're like, what?
That would be ludicrous. No one would ever say that to someone else. Why can't you just walk it off? It's like, what, you have a broken arm?
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Get yourself to someone who can help you heal that.
And I think you're right that more and more people are viewing taking care of our mental health in that way, you know, where it's like, we need this. Um, I think more and more people are viewing it as. As necessary, that healing work than. Than we used to, and I think it's a real benefit.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. And I think that they're accepting that it's okay to have both, But I say that all the time. Like, it's like, if you have diabetes, you don't tell people, I'll just get over it. Or like, you have to support that. You have to.
You know, you don't say, oh, there's something wrong with me because I have diabetes. You're like, no, I have diabetes. And you work through that. And so there's so much. I think there's a lot of shame, and I just think it's miseducation.
Yeah.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
I'm wondering one of the things.
And you got the chance to.
To read through the study before.
One of the things that this study brought out, that struck me, and I would say it struck me as.
As someone who's. I've trained in theology.
One of the things I was. I've been trained to do is reading the Bible through different lenses. You know, we can read it, and we can read it through a feminist lens, or we can read it through a liberation lens, or, you know, there's. There's all these things, and they're helpful. None of them are complete, but they're helpful.
And when I was like, oh, we can also read this through a mental health lens, I was like, okay, stop, because this is.
This is awesome. Like, there were lots of stories, biblical stories, where I was like, I never thought to read that through a mental health lens. I want to ask. Ask you about that, and if any of those stood out to you first, I'll give you an example. It's not from the study, but maybe one of the first times I was asked to do that was for a class on the theologies of exile. And we read through some of the exilic prophets, and specifically we're reading through Ezekiel, and. And one of the authors in one of the texts we were reading for class just. Just kind of makes the. Makes the suggestion, just says, what if we read Ezekiel through this lens? That Ezekiel actually, it's anachronistic. So we. We recognize that. But, like, Ezekiel has, like, a lot of PTSD symptoms and like, he had lived through some pretty serious trauma, loss, grief. You know, he's lost his homeland, he's lost his spouse, and he's asked to not even grieve her death. You know, he's being asked to continue to serve without really having the opportunity to. To deal with his own losses. And he does some unconventional, let's say, things in the stories that we read about him. But rather than maybe assigning those behaviors to, I don't know, any number of things that. That theologians have assigned those behaviors to over the years, what if we just took a moment and said Zeke was probably suffering from ptsd or what if he was suffering from ptsd? What would that. You know, how could we then maybe have compassion for him as a person or understand his behaviors or see what does this even look like for his people or something like that? But the point isn't to get into a deep dive on Ezekiel, but the point is to say we. I think even though the de. The diagnosis of PTSD would be anachronistic, people were still people.
Yes. And his losses were not unlike, in many ways, our own losses. And so he's experiencing things because he's a human. That human experience.
And could that maybe give us a different perspective, you know, not only on the Bible and what maybe these characters are going through, but also what that means for us as we live through our own losses and experiences and, you know, these kinds of things. So, anyway, so there were several in the. In the study. But I'm curious if you. If any of those stood out to you or if you have anything different where, like, maybe one of these times where that's been really helpful to you to read the Bible through this lens of mental health.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So in different ways. First of all, I want to highlight the he. Healing aspect that Jesus is also known as the healer.
And healing is not just about you cut your hand and it's also our brain.
People always just associate the mental health with the mind, which, you know, is not as tangible as the brain. But the brain is what we're dealing with. Right there is the mind. But a lot of it with the mental health, we are dealing with the brain. And the brain is in the body does impact our nervous system.
Trauma is held in the body.
And so that's the first aspect is to remember the healing of Jesus. And it's not just the physical. It's the presence. It's what's within us to heal. And it's still the brain. So I think that's really. When you look at it from that lens, just that's it. That's, you know, the lens.
When we even think about the shame of Adam and Eve, that's mental.
That's not physical.
That's. That's when we first see that shift was mental. It was not physical.
And so my favorite person is David.
I think David is one of my. Is one of my favorite people because he is the most real person because he was close to God, you know, after God's own heart.
He experienced rejection, he experienced love, he cheated, he, you know, part of the murder. He experienced joy. He experienced, you know, all of. All of the emotions, all the gamut of emotions.
And yet he was a man after God's own heart. And so I think that's my favorite person because it's the most realistic to humanness that I absolutely love about David and all the different. And he was still chosen.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: If we were in your office or if you are my spiritual director, I would sit in silence with that for a while because you did a lot to.
A lot of work in that short. Those short few sentences about David to really redeem him for me.
I have struggled with David for years.
I have gotten to love him more.
But I definitely went through a period of time where I could not speak, understand David.
He just irritated the fire out of me. I mean, I.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: How come?
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Oh. Oh, my goodness. So many reasons. But I think. But I think really part. A lot of it. When I look back now at the season where I couldn't stand David, I think it was.
It goes back to kind of these cultural expectations that I was experiencing in. In Christian communities of. Yeah. Of being good enough, you know, And. And I saw David not back then. I saw David not as a human, but more as a hypocrite.
And. And I left a lot of his complexities on the table and was just kind of like wishing to everything that he would just get his act together, you know, and he never does. I mean, he never does. But.
But I think as I have. As I have done my own evolving too, and everything that you just said about David, I'm like, praise God, because none of the rest of us are going to get our acts together either. You know, we. You know, there's so much. I would say there's just so much. There's so much David in us in that he's so complex and it's. There's not this black and whiteness. I think that was it when I was.
My personality just bends toward that kind of naturally. And when you try and put David as an example in kind of this black and white box, you know, I mean, he just doesn't fit there. I. I think there's a lot of complexities to him. But as you said, you know, to. To use your language, but, like. But he's the. He's kind of most human, you know, like, because we're just. We're complex like him. And, and that's.
That's hard.
Yeah, that's hard to wrestle with.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: And I think you hit on a really good point, is that you said I'm black and white and I want to put in this.
In the boxes. Right.
But that's.
In my opinion, that's more conditioning.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Than it is God.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: Bianca? Yeah. Same word.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you got it. You can't put God in a box.
We. It. It also feels safe. It feels like I can have some sense of control. It. It feels like all of these things. When I can put it into this category and I can figure this out, but then we know we can't figure God out. Like, we. We know God and there's more to know. We'll never fully know God. We're good with what we have, but you cannot put God in a box. So if you look at Jesus, everything that he did was the opposite of what was expected. Right. As a Jew, and what you were meant to do, and he challenged every single norm and everything that you were supposed to do and said, well, look at it from this perspective.
Look at this, and will just absolutely blow your mind. And so it's. Can I.
And this is one of the reasons why I'm. My lens is very much on the relationship of God, because that will just expand the connection and expand your awareness and help with things like the judgmental, help with things like I'm being hard on myself. Help us embrace the Humanness, while. Whilst we're embracing the spiritual and the divinity as well as the humanness. And that's exactly why Jesus came as a human, for that relatability. But sometimes we try to push that away.
But then if that was the case, why would Jesus come as a human?
So there's an element of accepting both. It's the end.
And we try to put the.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: And.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: But no, any. And I'm like, both things can be true and not have any meaning or take away anything from us. And that's the big part, is the. I do a lot of the work personally and professionally is on the acceptance, right?
So it's recognizing the reality as it stands in this moment without trying to judge it, change it, or fix it.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: When you bring up Jesus, one of the things that struck me in this study and Jesus humanity as you're. As you're bringing it up is I think a lot of times, I think this is. I think we're getting better at this too, as a Christian community at large, at least in the U.S.
lots of communities have been doing this really well for a long time. But I grew up with a robust, but also kind of a flat Jesus in some ways, like a felt board, you know, kind of Jesus. And like, he didn't sin and he was perfect and he had a beard and, you know, he loved children and he carried lambs and all these things that were probably, I hope, true, you know, about him.
But his humanity, like, thinking about him as being as complex as David, you know, David had these sin issues that we can kind of see from the Scriptures and. But thinking about, like, one of the things the study does is looking at Jesus life through the lens of mental health and, you know, saying, like, Jesus dealt with his own physical health, you know, growing up, he was a baby, he had to go through toddlerhood, and he probably fell and he had to have his diaper change and he nursed at his mother's breasts and he, you know, was a carpenter. So he probably smashed his hand sometimes and got splinters in his feet and, you know, all of these kinds of things and you got sick, you know.
But thinking about his mental health, I think is something that we just haven't done very much at all.
But if he was really a complex human, then he dealt with those things too.
I don't know. I mean, talk to us about that.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: Well, when you think about the anguish on the cross, why have you forsaken me?
That's mental as well. It's the pain physical. But that's oh my gosh, you're not here. Have you left me?
Fear of abandonment. Right. Rejection. Where? Why? To belong as humans.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: Wired to belong.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: And so when there's any, anything that we fear may create that separation, that we're not going to belong, they will do anything to get that back. That causes pain. We stay in relationships longer than we need to. We accept things that we don't need to accept. Because if I make a change, I won't have this community. I won't be connected. We're wired for all of that. And so it's like you forsaken me. You reminded me you've left me, you know, and so when we think about that, that's one of the things that areas where we, we can really think about that. The mental health piece, that, that anguish.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: Or even Judas, like, he's sitting at a table with like all his BFFs and like, you know, what Jews. He knows what Judas is about to do. He knows what Peter is about to do.
Like, I, I think it's probably doing a disservice to Jesus, humanity to think for a second that that didn't hurt him, that he didn't, like, he didn't have hurt feelings over his friends.
[00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: And being able to anticipate, like, knowing they're about to betray me, one to death, one to say he, he never even met me before.
What's that about? You know, like, I took you from this boat, Peter, and you're about to tell everyone you meet that you don't even know me. We talk the same.
Yeah. Like, how are you gonna say that?
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And.
Yeah. And the thing that I think you highlighted so well is.
And he knew this would happen and he still experienced, probably experience that betrayal.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
I think one of the things that does for me as a person is it starts to chip away at some of that shame that we were talking about, you know, that like, Jesus got his feelings hurt too.
Jesus had friends who abandoned him. Like, it's unfortunate that some of these things, things are part of the human experience.
And it's not, I don't know, it's not like a bad thing to, to learn to heal from them, you know, to deal with them, to learn to learn from them.
Yeah. I don't, I don't know what.
Say more about Jesus experiencing those things.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: What do you mean? In what way?
[00:37:25] Speaker A: Well, I think that like when you were talking about what, like, we're wired for connection.
And so when Jesus, when he was, whether he was feared that he was abandoned by his father, God or whether he actually was, you know, betrayed by some of his friends. I think what I'm getting at is I think that for me, his.
His God part, like his predictive nature, I think for me somehow discounted his human part, that it was kind of like, oh, I knew this was coming, so it didn't really phase me. But I don't think that's true the more I think about it.
So I think that he actually.
He lived through that, you know? Like, I don't think that he was like, oh, I know, I know Peter's gonna do that. So it's not. No, no skin off my back. Like, I don't think that's how Jesus probably. I mean, we're. We're guessing here, right? We're speculating, But.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: We're speculating. But I think also when it talked about in the book is Jesus wept and he wept and brought him back to life.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Right. With Lazarus is both.
[00:38:43] Speaker B: Yeah, right. So there was a weeping and there was a bringing him back to life. And so both, again, we're going back to the. And what we talked about, it's, yes, you came down as God wrapping the flesh, but you came down as human form to relate. So we know we have Jesus who's been through. So, like, why would we say Jesus has been through all of this so that we can relate. What, what would be the purpose of that? Would Jesus not have to have experienced the emotions and that anguish in order for us to. For Jesus to relate to us?
[00:39:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I have. There's been part of me who's thought he was above it.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: But then what would be the point in Jesus coming down as human form?
Yeah.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's wild.
It's wild, though, to think about, like, when I have my feelings hurt and I cry that maybe Jesus also had his feelings hurt and he cried because.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: It talks about that Jesus was perfect without sin, but it didn't say didn't have. That doesn't mean you don't have emotions, right?
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Or don't. Or don't struggle with some sort of, you know, like, like you said, like, even going back to. I mean, you talk about how to be like that shame. Like, that's mental.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was mental.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Mental things here. Yeah, this is mental. Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: We, we. We even go back to not sinning in anger, not. Not having anger. It's not sinning in anger.
So there's a. There's a thing of, oh, there's this anger that you have and you experience and you work through and you understand? But you don't have to go and sin in it.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Right, Right. Okay. This is. Yeah. No, there's no. There's a lot. There's a lot there. Oh.
Bringing it not away from the Bible, but kind of backing up into your, like, practitioner self.
What are some of the connections?
Like when you have clients or even just, you know, friends or people in your community who have really been doing some pretty heavy duty mental health work, who are Christians, what are some of those connections that you're seeing them make between, like, this work that they're doing that maybe at first they thought was shameful.
Mm. And now they're seeing as being beneficial.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: Relief that I can talk about these things.
I have this space to talk, and I cannot just talk about my mental health. I can also talk about. Or illnesses and in some cases. But. But I can also talk about my faith.
Right. They don't have to wear this mask.
So there is this relief. There is this sense of permission.
There is a way out.
I don't. Again, the anguish. I don't have to be in the anguish. I don't have to be alone.
And I think, well, what I know is it's so funny. I had someone recently reach out.
Gosh, how long ago? I saw them and was just like, I'm never forget the time that you prayed in session with me. And I'm like, wait, what?
This was years ago, like maybe six or seven years ago.
And you're like, oh, okay.
Wow, you. You just never know. So it's not just. And I don't always pray, but a lot of the time is it's the presence.
Right.
And they sense that and lean into that. And it's like I'm in this space where my emotional needs are being take off. And I'm also sensing this presence of God. And God is not. Not here.
So it's that permission. It's the relief, it's the openness. It's. It's a way. It's a way out of the anguish.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Part of what I was hearing in that. That I want to maybe ask more is going back kind of full circle to.
To your particular practice with maybe people. Individuals who tend towards perfectionism or other. These other kind of good enough, you know, things. I'm thinking that that permission piece is probably really big.
Yeah. For them. What does that look like?
And sometimes to. For. For people to get that permission that you're talking about.
[00:43:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
One of the ones.
Couple of my favorite ones is permission to.
Especially with the perfectionism, is not to how Do I put this because I'm focused on a lot of the work I do. It's the relationship with God. It's the permission not to have to put form, not to have to worry about all. Did I pray enough? Did I pray right?
If I don't pray today, is it still going to happen?
And did I go to church enough? Oh my God, I just couldn't make it today. It's that permission not to have to perform and to dive into the experience of God, into the love of God, right?
There is permission to be open to view God in a different way. If you viewed God as, I'm judgmental, I'm in trouble.
There's a permission to view God as the love, as, as, as the compassion.
There is a permission to view God as Father. And it's just like, you got to do all this. There's permission to ask questions to God and not just. There's permission to just, you know, sometimes they'd be like, I just want to say this. And I'll be like, just say that to God. Like, I mean, I say all the time, like, I'm not feeling you today, God, I'm not feeling you. And be like, you say that. I'm like, well, he already knows what's on my brain, so what difference does it make if it comes out my head? The word says, I know every thought before it leaves your mouth. I know every hair on your head. Therefore, to me, you know my thoughts, so why am I not saying anything? And they love that one. I think that's the favorite permission to just say what's on my mind and not edit myself and come in. Oh, heavenly Father. It's like, what's up today? I'm not feeling you.
And it leads you into truth, right? It leads you into the real. It leads into connect with God, with who you are, are. God already knows all these things.
And so, yeah, yeah, that takes me.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: That takes me back to David. You know, there was, there was a lot of I'm not feeling you today, God. And David's in David's prayers. You know, a lot of the psalms are God, I'm just not, I'm not feeling you today. Or worse.
Or worse. And I think about, I did a spiritual exercise in one of my classes and I thought, I cannot see the value in this. But I'm just gonna go ahead and do it because it was assigned. And so I was like, okay, whatever. So I was at this, like, supposed to take like a 24 hour silent retreat. And one of the things that was asked of us was just take out your journal or any kind of piece of paper or whatever, and just do.
I think they called it. What was it? Maybe they called it a prayer dump or a brain dump or something like that. It was just like, right down everything that you're thinking, just like, whatever comes to mind, you know, write it out and basically just, like, give it to God. Like, kind of submit it to God. And I thought, well, this feels just about like the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life. But here we go, and I start just that writing, you know, even just like you're saying, like, it's there anyway, God already knows, whatever.
But it was wild, you know, kind of the. The, like the relief that you talk about that it felt to just kind of get it out.
The permission, but also kind of the clarity, because I think. I don't know, for me, if we. If we say I don't have permission to say those kinds of things to God, then it's not like they go away. They just kind of spin around in my head and cause, I don't know, confusion. There's all sorts of. You know, it just kind of gets cloudy up there. And so if I give myself permission or if I gain permission from somewhere to just, like, get those things out and say them to God or my therapist or, you know, whatever, then it, like, I'm surprised. Kind of the clarity that, you know, that kind of action can bring. But we have to have people guide us through those things sometimes.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. Or one of the things I. I say to people now, I've been working through, because everyone's like, you're so good at giving permission. I'm like, I don't feel like I give you permission, but it's. I do, and I don't, in a way. But what I. What I kind of understood is my superpower is delivering permission slips.
Love it, right? One of the superpowers is delivering a permission slip. Like, you can do this. It's like. And I give. I like to give the raw, rugged David. I love giving David. Like, again, I'd be like, have you ever read David?
I was like, just go and read David. Just. Just go and read the psalms and see what David said. And then people come back, be like, oh, my gosh. I'm like, exactly.
And so it's really getting you into this. All right, let's open up outside of what you've been told to do, because that's where the perfectionism comes in and the expectations, because it's Someone else's expectations. And you kind of talk about the cultural lens. I'm also like, when you read the Bible, remember the cultural lens. Remember all of these things, right? When you're looking at the Bible and there's still the Holy Spirit and there's still this experience of God. Like, where is that coming in? Versus, you know, one of my therapists always said that there's a difference between the intellectual and the experience of God.
And. And when you think about. And you observe Jesus, you ex. Observe. David was so raw because he experienced God. Like, he was like, oh, I'm experiencing you. I'm in relationship with you.
I'm not. Oh, Heavenly Father. And you're up there. And no, we're in relationship. And that was the whole point of Jesus, to be in relationship with God. And then it's like. And so it's just delivering that permission to explore this relationship with God, experience God in. In that way, because you have this avenue for. Through Jesus. And then it also depends because everybody. Some people are God, some people are Jesus, and some people are Holy Spirit. So I always go with, like, who do you talk to most? Who do you feel closer to? And work with? Whoever that is, because it looks different for everybody.
Like, me, personally, I'm a God person. Like, yeah, I'm gonna go God, Holy Spirit, then Jesus. That's always.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I know, but because I'm thinking now of. Of myself and of friends of mine who, even when we speak about God, I have friends who almost exclusively speak of spirit. Like, hands down, you know, like they're, you know. Yeah. Oh, that's. No, that's really interesting. But when you talk about the relationship, the personal, personal part of that. Yeah, that makes a difference.
Bianca, as we. As we're wrapping up here, I'm wondering, and I imagine that this is a conversation that you've had before. So I'm going to say, let's say you have a friend, you have a colleague, you have someone in your church, small group or something, and they're on the fence.
They're like, I really think this might be helpful for me to go find a therapist. But I. And then fill in the blank. I mean, we didn't even touch on, like, family stuff. You know, that can be a barrier. There's definitely faith stuff that we've talked all about that could be a barrier. There's cultural stuff, there's ethnic stuff that could be a barrier. There's maybe even, you know, other relational things that can be a barrier. But somebody is kind of. I'M thinking of myself. I told you, I was there twice. You know, where it's like, I really think I need to do this, and I'm just not sure.
Okay, if you could see, yeah, this is really going to benefit this person.
What would you say to encourage them maybe to explore that on. On. On their own?
[00:51:58] Speaker B: Okay. I have many different ways, but I'm gonna go with the one that came to my mind first.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: It's probably one of my favorites because I think you can use it in any setting, any. To anyone. It's like, well, do you want to be in this space one year from now?
Do you want to be in this space a month from now, six months from now? And if you do, that's okay. I always tell people that's okay.
But you lose nothing for making a try from trying to see if it's for you or not. Because right now you're in your head about if I or should I. But you don't have any data. You don't have any information to know if it will work or not. Right now, you're just going based on what other people have said.
And then there's. If you're thinking about it, how do you know that's not God leading you?
[00:52:49] Speaker A: This is where you want to be a year from now?
Yeah.
[00:52:52] Speaker B: Where do you want to be in a year from now? Do you want to be in this space? Okay.
[00:52:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:58] Speaker B: And if you don't, what do you want to do?
[00:53:00] Speaker A: Right. And I do say, from my perspective, not as a practitioner, but as a, you know, somebody's client, I say, if you want to be where you are a year from now, it's okay. In part because I'm like, I know what kind of work it has taken me to get from A to B to A to B to A to B over and over again. And I am like, David, not even anywhere close to being there. You know, I still haven't gotten my act together.
But stepping in takes a lot of work.
So it's not.
Yeah, I think it's. It's okay to kind of wonder, but that's a good encouragement to, yeah. Say, yeah, but what if, you know, you don't have any data?
[00:53:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And the thing about asking that question, it takes away everybody else.
It takes away the thought of, well, what will people think? It's like, well, do you want to be here a year from now?
It takes away everything about what people? Because I could sit here, well, why don't you want to be it? Oh, because someone. So I like okay, but now I'm home in. Right in on you. What do you want?
So many times we don't ask ourselves the question, what do I want? Without thinking about other people and what other people will think when you ask the question, what do I want? Do I want to be here a year from now? It's a lot different to. To like, oh, what do you. What? You know, you start talking about everyone else. I know it's about everybody else. I already know that.
I know that. So I don't. I can sit here and go back and forth, but I want to know, what do you want? What is in your heart? Where is God leading you? What are you being told to do? Because here's the other caveat of that, is that if you are not who you were created to be, I miss out.
Alexis, if you're not here doing this, I'm not having this conversation with you. I don't get to deliver.
No one else gets to hear this message. No one else gets to hear you. I don't get to experience you. I don't get this opportunity to deliver what I need to do. Because you're not being you, Alexis. So you're being you. I'm being you. We work together. Everyone else benefits.
I need you to be you.
And if you're worrying about what everyone else thinks, you are not being you. You're being who people expect you to be. And you've been created by the creator to be this person, be that, because that is powerful. That is where you thrive. That is where your joy is at. And so it just goes back to that. I need you to be you. Don't do anything else. It's like you needed Steve Jobs to create Apple and Bill Gates, the great, you know, Microsoft, oh, my gosh. You imagine if he didn't create Steve Jobs, didn't focus on the Apple and gave up.
And that's what. It's deep. It's not just, oh, what about, well, you need to be you. So everyone else. So you benefit and everyone else benefits.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Say the name of your practice.
[00:56:18] Speaker B: Authentically be you Counseling and Wellness Studio.
[00:56:23] Speaker A: Authentically be you.
[00:56:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:26] Speaker A: That's a challenge.
[00:56:29] Speaker B: It is. In a world where everyone tells us to inspects us to be something else that we're not a hundred percent, but not impossible.
[00:56:40] Speaker A: That's right.
Yeah. I'm so, so grateful for this conversation.
For people who want to hear more of what Bianca has to say, she's on a video panel called what's the difference between Therapist pastors and spiritual directors.
Also with T.C. moore and Sharon Wada. That is in the back of this Bible study called Mental Health Experiencing God's Care for Our Mind, Body and Spiritual Spirit by Dorcas Chang tosin. It's a six week interactive Bible study, part of the series with InterVarsity Press and made for packs.
Bianca this conversation will many parts of it will be living rent free in my head in a good way for weeks to come, I hope, if not more.
Thank you so much for coming on. Where where can people see more of your work? And we'll be sure to get those links in the show notes.
[00:57:42] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, Alexis, thank you for inviting me and having me on. I appreciate that. It's an honor and a privilege.
So authentically be you.com is my website.
You can find pretty much everything there. Instagram, Authentically be you. I'm liking threads right now.
Yeah, Authentically be you is another place I'm there. And then on LinkedIn is my other big place. Bianca Hughes so those are the main social media spaces, but if you get lost, just go authentically bu.com but that's the main places you can find me.
If you want therapy in Georgia or just for speaking as well.
Yeah, those are places you can find me.
[00:58:27] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you so much, Bianca. I really appreciate you being on. Thank you.
The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit us at thatmakestotalsense.sam.
