Episode 328 - Lisa Colón DeLay

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. So I would say it's not every day that you get to meet a new friend, but my kids might actually debate that. They call me a Hufflepuff Lisa. And they say what we used to say was that my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, we would say he'd never met a stranger. And so this is how I feel being across the screen from you today, Lisa, is that I have not met a stranger today. I've met a new friend. And I'm so grateful. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Oh, likewise. I. I realize we have a lot of. We're swimming in the same similar streams and we have some of the same passions and this is a real treat. I do feel like it's been. It's friend day number one. And you know, sometimes you wind up speaking to people and it's. It's almost like you pick up where you left off, but we haven't left off anywhere. So we're sort of jumping in midstream. But it feels great. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree. That's a great way to put it. Well, I'm here today with my new friend, Lisa. Colon delay. Excuse me. Lisa and I have just finished her wonderful book called the Way of the Desert Elders. How the Wisdom of Ancient Christians Sustains Us to Today. And I will tell you, Lisa, this book came to me at a great time because I would say post seminary, I mean, I'm still kind of in seminary, but I would say post M. Div. I am more open to exploring topics like this characters. I will use that loosely. Like this practices like the ones described in the book. Because my seminary experience really opened me up to things that I hadn't really had exposure to before, is probably what I should say. And then some of it I was averse to just personality wise. Like, I'm not a history buff. Like I'm sure my husband really wishes I was because his bookshelves are like full of history stuff and he'll try to talk to me. He's like, have you heard? I'm listening to this new history podcast I found. And I'm like, oh, like, why are you doing that? Anyway, but I try now. Like I'm. I'm getting a little bit better. It's probably never going to be like, oh my go to for fun. But, you know, I'm. I'm open. But also I feel similarly about the practices. You know, I grew up in a space where, yeah, there was, there wasn't a lot of exposure or openness to kind of these disciplines and practices that you refer to in the book. And that is probably a major part of your life, I would guess, as someone who, who focuses on spiritual formation. So this book came to me in a really great season because I am more open to it now and I still don't know a whole lot. So I'm so grateful for how you've put this together and specifically who you introduce us to, to in the book and the vices and virtues. So by way of that long introduction, I want to ask you, because you have a spiritual formation focus, I want to ask you how you became interested in the desert elders, because they are really interesting group. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Yes. And if you're from the branch of Protestantism or American evangelicalism, you might have even never heard of them. You might have heard of some random desert father here or there, like maybe St. Anthony is kind of known as sort of an Eastern figure. I didn't know. I'm the pastor's kid growing up as a pastor's kid. But Southern Baptist fundamentalism and everything was like, scary. You know, you're not supposed to do that or do that or read your Bible and pray. But learning from these people who predate institutional Christianity in a big way, where the Roman Empire came in and sort of subsumed everything and, and then it really changed. We had to get the creeds or else, you know, otherwise there's a way to determine who's a heretic, who's in, who's out, who's going to get burned and condemned or excommunicated. You know, before that, there were a lot of ideas that could be held together, even though they were sort of contradictory. But there were little squabbles going on within the church and so these really early fathers. And then there's many mothers too. There's many spiritual mothers. It was this weird time in history, one of the strangest times in history, where as this takeover happened from this empire position, people just doubled their devotion and left everything behind, their wealth, their lives. And they went into places in the desert, might be days walk and. And cities sprang up and there were up to a half a million people living that way in the Deserts of northern Egypt, but also Palestine, Syria and Arabia and some other places. And this was the beginning of what became monasticism. People began to live together simply and taking vows to sort of cast away the world's trappings and the trappings and the luxuries of empire and power. It was just such a stunning time. As I began to learn about it, I was like, why didn't. Haven't I heard these. These people have so many nuggets of wisdom that have been preserved for us. They're very devout now. Some of them go really over the top with fasting and it's too much. But I was very inspired in my first book with Evagrius Ponticus. And he was this very sort of tender teacher. He would take students and he would prevent, do preventative medicine with them instead of what became the seven Deadly Sins began with him, but not as deadly sins as afflictions of an afflicting thoughts, stuff that would trip you up, tempt you, trap you, cause you to sin, or lead you away. And he was just like, hey, here's what's coming. Repent, turn back, let's not get crazy. You know, he wasn't pivoting it on shame, which is kind of how the empire like to do it. Then they like to say, well, you're going to have to come through us for to be absolved. And you're going to have to realize these are these sins that you're doing are these moral failings. And it really wasn't like that in the beginning. It was much more sort of teacherly and preventative. And what was nice is that from a spiritual formation perspective, which is kind of my jam I'm always about, instead of keeping people stuck in some kind of way that they can begin to feel movement and progression and move towards generative things and health and perhaps even healing from even maybe the church or not feel as disconnected with God. And so these kind of practical things drew me to Evagrius, which then drew me to the entire era. And I was like, oh my goodness, I've missed all these people. And in certain places in these communities, the women were separated from the men, but sometimes the women doubled the men in numbers. And a lot of people don't know that there were so many women involved in this movement. They were teachers and they were mostly lost to history. But I, I think that it's just good to know who our spiritual forebears are. Even if you don't like history, you can still learn from them and, and realize that their devotion is Very inspirational. [00:08:22] Speaker A: No, you're. No, you're exactly right. I completely agree with that. One of the things that struck me very early in the book, and I'm really glad you brought it up, I'm hoping you'll elaborate a little bit is because when, when, when I first gained exposure to, I would say just maybe like I was introduced kind of to like the aesthetic movement. And so, and so I'm like, oh my goodness, what, what is this? Like, I'm, I'm learning new words. I'm, you know, all this. I'm like, I don't even, I don't even know. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:54] Speaker A: And then I thought, oh, okay, the. But these people, they're like ultra holy. Like real, real holy. And, and, and there, that was like a thing, you know, back then. And then we still have, you know, remnants. I would say there's, you know, like, you know, communities, especially in Catholicism, for example, that those would be most familiar to us probably. But when I saw that I, I, in the book, you name that the desert dwellers were often bedeviled. Am I saying that right? I was like, okay, I think we can talk now. Like, I think that we. Yeah, yeah, we got this. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:42] Speaker A: So I'm hoping. Will you elaborate a little bit on kind of what you mean? I know that every, every one of these fathers and mothers has their own unique stories, but as a group they do have some things in common. And that, that was one of them. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Right. So what a lot of people find, even today, this, this will happen. So you go off maybe if you're, if you have the, the privilege, I would say, to go off and not have to worry about kids or work or anything else, and let's say you go away for a weekend, what can happen? Usually people find, if you're not allowed to be distracted and get your mind, you know, off doom scrolling or something, what you'll find is that your thoughts become very loud and old stuff comes. This is kind of what the desert dwellers would talk about, being confronted by demons. And, and for some of them, that's like real sort of physical manifestations. We hear this in stories, but for most of the time, and I think Evange was saying this too is like what's within you. You will come out and you'll have to deal with it. Like, do you have an old betrayal that or a grudge you're nursing, or are you angry about something that happened? Are you envious of other people? This is going to come up. If you're in silence and solitude and stillness, which is what the desert provides. So as they. As a lot of these people sort of escaped to the desert, and some people were escaping slavery or marriage, arranged marriages that they were forced into. Some people were escaping debt. And some people went for just very devoted reasons. They found that when they got there, it wasn't really an escape at all. That's when actually stuff would really start for them. And there was just so much struggle as any one of us would struggle today with, you know, confronting your inner demons, if you will, or. Or the different hurts or traumas that have happened. And so some of the people that are my favorites are the ones who really like Abba Moses. He was a murderer. He was a criminal. He was the head of this giant group of bandits that would go from town to town terrorizing people. And it took him decades to soften and to mature into this humble, gentle giant that he became so admired. There's still a monastery that's the same monastery in the same place in Egypt. It's a testament to his legacy, and his story carries on in those monks that are there now. [00:12:11] Speaker A: I think that this is. When you say, like, they're confronting things, I'm like, yeah, because they had things to confront. You know, Like, I think. I think it was backwards that they were already kind of how you describe Abba Moses, and then that's what led them into the desert, was that they were kind of already exuding these qualities. When, as the story is told, it's actually the reverse. Like, they had some issues when they got into the desert. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we remember them as holy people, perhaps, but putting them on a picture pedestal is a mistake, because very ordinary people, and then they're only really called Abba and Amma, Mother and Father, everybody are brothers and sisters. Right. But when you get to a certain stage where people are coming to you for advice and they're admiring you and you actually got your stuff together somewhat, you wind up being called an Abba or Amma. And these are very much not official titles, not cleric titles. They're just. They are terms of endearment and honor. And when you read some of their sayings now, some of them collected sayings that have gone out. I think it's Sister Benedicta, she passed away recently. She has these kind of classic books with all their sayings. I use them, and many people use them to research or to use. And some of them seem like kind of off the wall and don't make sense, or some of them seem like, like scripture. They're taking from scripture and putting some things together. And then other things just. Just drill right into you and speak right into you about how to. Where to put your focus and how to find intimacy with God and, and especially the spiritual practices that kind of train your heart or garden, your interior garden, to have the seeds of God be planted in you and, and to reap a harvest that way. And so they're very, very practical. And I guess that's what it spoke to me through time. For instance, Amos and Kletica came from a merchant background and seafaring merchant background. So she makes all these allusions to how a ship is held together with nails and, and how, you know, these certain things happen at sea and how that relates to the spiritual life. So it's just like stuff from her life. [00:14:24] Speaker A: I. Yeah, thank you for that. I'm. I'm grateful for that and for their. For their wisdom in all these different areas. The book, if we turn more specifically there for a minute, the book is organized in terms of vice and virtue. And I will say just broadly, I'm hoping that you can bring out something. I'm going to trip over my words on this because I was. Even as I was trying to create my notes, I was like, I don't know exactly how to say this, but this was my perception reading the book. So these desert fathers and mothers, they seemed. There were things about them that seemed different from us, and I'll say kind of broadly us, maybe broadly American evangelicalism adjacent, you know, folks, or cultural. Or our culture in the U.S. especially, say they seem different from us in that they don't seem to be seeking out some sort of, like, comfortable middle ground. So, like, you know, on. On some of these things where I'm thinking, like, I would kind of excuse my behavior and I would say, I mean, I've only been. It's summertime. I don't have any reading to do. I don't have class. And I really, probably, in the back of my head, I'm thinking, I don't really want the solitude and stillness that you're talking about because I don't want those other things to bring up. So I really only binged, like, three Netflix shows, but that was like, over the whole summer. And so I think it's totally. It's totally fine. Like, that's like, lots of people binge way more than that. And it's, you know, whatever, or. And so I think that sometimes maybe I'll say I would seek some sort of middle ground to say, well, I don't have this vice. Maybe I'm not this Virtuous, but I'm also not a saint, so whatever. But at least I'm not like, fully living into this particular vice. And I would say, even to take it a step further with the desert elders, I might look at them and say, yeah, but that feels really extreme to me, you know, like, whatever the practice was or whatever this kind of outward manifestation, and in some ways, some of them are, but I don't think. I think what they were seeking to do, though, it seems to me, is not to pursue this middle ground, kind of this, like, good enough or this whatever. Like they're saying, if this vice exists in me, I want it to, like, not exist in me. [00:17:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:06] Speaker A: And I just don't think I go that far, generally. Well, speaking. So I don't know. I mean, can you help me with like, my words or like, what, what you kind of, what were you communicating in the, in the book were things like that? I just think their approaches seemed extreme, but I think their goals were maybe extreme. And that was the point. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Well, the thing too is that they're not like us because not anytime soon. And here's the other thing, is that even though there were desert dwellers, I'll say this first, desert dwellers, and there were Abbas and Ammas, some people also just visited them. They, they kept their lives in, in wherever they were, but they maybe visit. It was a slower time, so it would take a few days to get there, a few days to get back, and they might stay weeks or months. They weren't going to be part of the community, but they wanted to learn, they wanted to begin to alter their life around sort of these notions of being more simple and, and things stripped back. But I would say to, to your point, one of the things I get to in the very end of the book is just setting up a trellis for your life. They would call it a rule of life. And that rule of life can adjust to where you are in your life now. So you might, may or may not, you know, pick out a few things you want to sort of work on that, that sort of sneak up on you. I mean, the problem of writing a book like this is that you realize, oh, I have all nine of these places, like, not a little bit. Oh, oh, crap. So you kind of, you might pick out some things you want to work on and then a practice that might help with that or an attitude or, you know, some wisdom from the desert elders in that way. But it's also, you're sort of setting your life around this trellis where if you don't have a trellis, these vines, or these flowers or these grapes, they just end up all over the place, and they end up rotting in the mud. And they need to be lifted into the air, lifted towards the heavens, and. And kept kind of cultivated. Right. So I appreciate that the way they lived in the desert was with a rule of life, they would be. These are the prayer times, these are the scripture times, these are the liturgy meeting times. And they had a very systematic way of kind of living with each other and. And living also in plenty of solitude with. With prayer and fasting. And it's not that we can just do that, but we can also just sort of take the pieces that are most helpful to us and sort of craft a rule of life for ourselves. And that could include the occasional Netflix binge. It's not like you have to take all these things of joy out of your life at all, but it also sort of gives us a way to sort of moderate our excesses and also, in a sense, question our desires and our hungers. Are they taking the place of God at all? Do they wind up squeezing in? And then it's not just affecting us, but it'll affect our relationships and our church community and all the rest. So. So I kind of see what you mean. It's like if we first look at the desert elders, we think, oh, my goodness, they're so pious. They're so interested in all these virtues that combat the vices. But I'm hoping that just maybe one or two of these mothers or fathers will sort of stand out with a nugget of wisdom that a reader can kind of hold with them and take with them and see how it interrogates their life in a way that makes it more beautiful and pleasing to God. [00:20:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I got there for sure. But also I was like, yeah, I think. I think there's some ways where I feel like, yeah, these people aren't like me, because, like I said, I'm. I'm a lot of times happy with that middle ground. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:56] Speaker A: Oh, and that stinks. I. I wanted to ask about. There were. I had. I had several that I was. I thought if we. If we have time, I'd like to. I'd like to get to some of these, because there were the way especially. And I. Especially the way that you present the vices, and we should say that they correspond in some ways to the seven deadly sins. The way that some of these vices were presented, I was like. And I know it's because there's Not a. It's not a direct translation, one to one. It was like, oh, okay, I haven't heard of this. Or this is different. Or I had to have my dictionary app with me to look at some of these words, like acedia. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Maybe that's the one. That's. [00:21:50] Speaker A: Acedia was definitely the one. And that's actually where I wanted to go. You read my mind. You read my mind. Because I was just thinking about it in terms of. I was kind of comparing that one to. Or bringing it into our current time. As I was making notes this morning, I have. Don't ask me why I haven't turned these off, but I have breaking news alerts from the Times that come on my phone and then they come on my watch. And then it's funny because I'm. I was kind of laughing, especially after Trump took office again in January. I was like, dang, everything is breaking news. Like, everything is breaking. Like, it's just constantly breaking news. And most of the time it has to do with something the administration is doing. It's a policy. It's things that have come out this morning. It's emails, it's all of this stuff. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:52] Speaker A: And it's very hard to keep up with. And this morning, when I was thinking about acedia, and we'll see if you see the connection that I saw there this morning. When you name Acedia, one of the phrases that you use to help describe it is a lack of care. And I thought, this is a real temptation for me to just kind of feel helpless. So not the despondency, the hopelessness, but the helpless. It's like, I can't. I can't do it. My nephew, when he was really little, we would ask him to do something, and one time, we'll never let him live it down. He's in his 20s now, and he said, but I can't want to. And we're like, yeah, sometimes I just feel like I can't want to. I can't want to care. I can't want to do anything about it. Or I just have this feeling of helplessness that I can't do something. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Like it's a paralysis. [00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Like the act. Like the idea of acting in a faithful way feels so far from anything that I could do where I'm just like, yeah, I think I'm. I'm slothful then, because I'm just like, what am. What am I going to do? [00:24:17] Speaker B: Well, you know, sloth is. Acedia got changed to sloth. But in doing so, some good Stuff got left out and then this. It got to be thought of as laziness, you know. But sloth is also. Is a spiritual kind of like what you're describing. But it's the answer for it is actually not to be like, well, get. Get productive. Be a harder worker. It's actually intimacy with God. And so that it's replaced in a sense, by thinking, you know, I'm stuck. I can't do this. And to be like, well, you know, crawl up into my arms for a while. It's okay, it's all right. And Acedia is more like a kind of spiritual boredom so that especially like a hard project or hard task, it loses its novelty after a while. Or it can be a chronic dissatisfaction. So Kathleen Norris, who wrote a cdn Me, which I informed my book a bit, talks about this kind of cultural thing to be like, nah, you know, I'm cynical. Everything kind of is dumb and moving on. And. And it's kind of this lack of spiritual joy that can come from intimacy with God and intimacy with others. And it also speaks to some of these things, speak to what's happening in the minds of people going out to the desert. They're just sort of stuck there in complete boredom. We have no concep stepped up because they had nothing. You know, they're just supposed to go in their cell and pray and read scripture and, you know, consider and contemplate and grow in intimacy with God. And that just bored the heck out of them. They didn't want to be there after a while. Be like, yeah, that's the Noonday Demon. 10am to 2pm you're going to have the worst problem. And like, yeah, I could kind of relate to that, you know, that this is. And. And he's just like, carry on, carry on. Keep pushing. Don't. Don't worry about it too much. You know, just. Just track back, you know. But he would talk about he. A little bit. Would. I don't know if it's. Make fun. Is that too strong a word? But he would say, you know, some of these monks have the habit of just wandering around aimlessly and, oh, I'm the little boy. I'm gonna look and see what he's doing, and I'm gonna go over here and I'm gonna thumb through these books. And. And he's like, you know, that's just a way to kind of escape the hard work of pushing through to maturity. And so. But culturally, in our time, we don't even allow ourselves to get bored. Like, you're breaking news headlines is going to mean your mind never gets a rest. And my doom scrolling is going to mean that I'm not allowing my brain to not just rest, but like just have any downtime at all, you know, because we're interrupted with distractions all the time. And, and that's why when this dopamine addiction, I think we probably both have it pretty bad that if you wind up going somewhere where you can't use your phone for two days, there's this weird something is wrong feeling. Probably for like 18 hours at least. [00:27:26] Speaker A: This is. Yeah, no, I agree and I'm glad that you specified that it's not the solution isn't to get productive, that it's intimacy with God. And that's a, that's a big difference. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah, and slowing down, like. Yeah, slow down. Like a lot of, a lot of the stuff we get wound up about is this kind of weird expert expectations we're putting on ourselves. And I don't think it's what God requires or desires or. You know, I was talking about with somebody about I want to be more like trees. You know, there's. They're not worried about being trees, they're just doing it, you know. And I'm thinking I want to be more like nature. Like actually I am nature. What am I? I'm nature. Like what did I think I was? A computer? A machine? Like, I'm not a machine, I'm nature. And nature has its seasons. It can't rush them. You know, just learning kind of from our, our world, the world God has given us. And, and these people who've gone before us are like not sure where the fire is, but you don't have to hot tail it out of here, you know, and just slowing it down. And I think our, our spiritual thirst for this, we don't even know what it is. We're so thirsty that we don't even realize that, that we need to slow down. And it's only like later we're like, what the heck? My hair was on fire that whole time. You know, they teach us about taking a step back or they teach us about retreat, of course, but it's just this whole different way of being in the world. [00:29:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you use the phrase, if I'm not mistaken, in that chapter you use the phrase holy waiting. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Oh, that's visual. Yeah, that's one of the spiritual practices. Visual. Holy waiting, it's called by different names. And it's also prayer. So we don't. And I never thought of it as prayer. I never thought of silence or waiting as prayer, but it's this expectant hope and reliance on God. You know, some people in Catholic tradition will hold vigil with candles maybe, or maybe not even. Maybe broader than Catholic tradition. The whole vigil all night with candles. Right. But that's prayer. That's saying, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm grieving or my heart's broken. This is a hard time, but I'm going to wait on the Lord. And. And there's something really, really powerful resting in a totality kind of way where we're like, I don't actually have to keep trying to make something work and inserting myself into issues and problems. I can also just wait. And there's a different. There's a different orientation happening there. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. When you were talking about the trees, I'm so glad you brought up the seasons, because I'm like, this is it there. I. I think. I can't remember. I think I was reading a Beth Moore book a hundred years ago, and she was talking about how God really must. I think it was her was talking about how God really must just enjoy watching things grow. You know, just the act of growth. And. And it was like a reference to revelation where all of these different trees will bring fruit in these seasons. And it's like, but God has the ability to just make fruit appear. So why the trees? Like, why the growth? Why the seasons? You know? And even as I look out, everything's still green here in Texas right now on my trees. But I'm assuming that they will soon start to turn colors and start to fall off. And, you know, I think, what if. You know, what if you came in right before that happened or even as once that was happening, you've never seen a tree before, and you come in and there it's just bare, you know, like, wow, that might feel. That might feel hopeless. That might feel dry, or that might feel like, what. What's going on here? That might feel like death, you know, and it's not. It's just a season. It's just a season that's part of the growth. And you're absolutely right that the trees aren't worried about it. [00:31:43] Speaker B: Just doing it. [00:31:44] Speaker A: They're just doing it. They're just doing it. I wanted to ask you about. And I'll say this is like a choose your own adventure, because I have a few things here where I'm like, these were crazy to me. These were like some wild things. I want to talk about some of the specific practices of some of the elders. And I'm wondering. So again, choose your own adventure. If you want to talk more broadly about, like, some of these wild practices and maybe what they were or what we could learn from them now, that's great. Or choose your own adventure. Pick one of the ones I list or something different of, like, what that particular father or mother, what was going on. Some of the ones that stood out to me that I did not have to look back at the book. They. They just live rent free in my head. The guy who's standing on the pillar, I'm like, come on. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Oh, my word. [00:32:36] Speaker A: So there's pillar, pillar standing guy, Then there's basket weaving guy. I'm like, basket weaver. What are you doing all day and all night? Let me see if I wrote down any of the other ones I'm thinking even about. I know this isn't a practice, but the. Some of the women who are dressing like men because they're, you know. Right. I mean, like, I'm like, there's like, stuff going on there, all sorts of stuff going on with the lifestyle styles of these desert elders. [00:33:06] Speaker B: Oh, how much time do you have? Yeah, there's a lot. Like, each. Each person could totally be its own episode, for sure. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah. What's. I guess I want to ask you, who is a mother, father, that you're like, well, that's so weird. Or. Oh, I love that. Like, any stand out in your mind. And then I'll. I'll riff a little bit about one of those. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Okay, I now remember. I'm trying to remember her story better now, but, well, okay, gosh. Oh, there might be two. Oh, there might be two. Okay. One is the guy. And again, I don't. I don't have the names there. These are just the ones that are. That are living in my brain. The guy who's falsely accused of impregnating the woman. Okay, I. I have to. If I fully admit where I was in that I was kind of like, lisa, are you sure he was, quote, falsely accused? I mean, we're living in hashtag, me too. Let's not give this guy, you know, whatever. But then she admits it, right? So I was like, okay, okay, she admits it. But he is creating so that he can help her with her, like, selling things so he can help her financially. I'm like, oh, you have like, no, I'm sorry. I'm like, I am. Anyway, he wasn't defending himself. [00:34:27] Speaker B: That was vicarious. He wasn't going to defend himself. He he wanted to be out in the desert. And his spiritual father basically sent him back to the village, and they immediately made him priests. Not because he wanted to be, like, the head of the whole church there. He didn't want to be. He wanted to be out in the desert. But they were like, wow, this guy's incredible. Let's make him a priest. And Macarius is the person who really winds up setting up a whole bunch of communities in the desert at like, 30 years old. He's kind of like a head in. In a certain way, spiritually speaking. But he does. He gets accused by this woman, and he. He doesn't defend himself. But they start taking him through the town. There's a whole story in there. They take him through the town. They're making fun of him. They're berating him. They're letting them have it. They're hanging hot. I mean, huge cooking pans around his neck. I'm just thinking. So I'm sure he's clanging along with all this weight, and he's just like, she needs help now. She might have just had no one to help her. Or who knows? It could have even been an incestuous pregnancy. Like, we don't really know the real story of this woman. But whatever the case was, he didn't defend himself. He just started weaving and making all kinds of things to sell to finance her during this time that she was pregnant. And her guilt caught up with her because she started having this really hard labor. And she was like, I'm wondering, is this because this holy man and this man of God, does it have something to do with my lie? You know? And so then she confesses and is able to have the baby right away. Maybe the stress was. She was just balled up in knots. I don't know what. What to think. But they felt. The villagers felt terrible what they had done that. They had. They had said that about done that to him, and. And he was gone. He didn't wait for their apologies. He went right into the desert and began a community there. He was kind of like. I think he was kind of like, yeah, I'm done. [00:36:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I think like anybody would be. It's like, oh, my goodness. That was. I mean, that's wild, right? That is just wild. But I'm like, no, somebody's. No someone, anyway, falsely accused. And he just doesn't defend himself. But the compassion. The compassion that he showed for that woman, even though she had caused him harm. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was beautiful. I was skeptical at the beginning but then, you know, I thought this was. This was really. This was really beautiful. So he was one. This didn't have anything to do with the pillar standing or the other bit. But you're asking who stood out to me? So he did. And also Mary did. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Oh, something about Mary. [00:37:17] Speaker A: That chapter, man, I was blown away. [00:37:23] Speaker B: You know, I have to tell you, the story is that she's 12 and she leaves home. They did not want me. They did not want me to put that in there. That she was 12. Wow. Now, people did get married younger in those days, but she was like, I'm out of here. And it could have been abuse situation that she was escaping there, too. We don't know. That would not surprise me. But she just kind of. She couldn't get enough. She was sexually insatiable. And this went on for quite some time, you know, and it's. Her story is just so interesting. And she's considered this, especially in Eastern Orthodox, as many of these Abbas and Ammas are. They have their own feast days, and they're honored and revered and remembered. And I think for people who. Who have a life that's chaste, like vowed chastity, she's an incredibly inspirational figure because she. She turned away from all of that to have a different kind of life. It doesn't mean that's the life we all have to have or anything like that, but she's just so inspirational that she decided, yeah, I'm starting over. I'm leaving everything behind. And she just got by as a grazing hermit, just eating whatever she could. And she's really revered in Eastern Christianity, Eastern Orthodox Christianity. And then there's these other, like, tales that go along with it about that she. That a lion was, like, upset that she had passed away. It's all in there for people to look at, but it's like, wow, that. I mean, maybe it's completely fake, but. But something is probably. Something probably made it into the story and was saved all these years because there's something that happened that was true with it. We can't be sure because it's not history in the same sense that we record history now, but these stories get passed on because these people are so remarkable. [00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was. Yeah, that was a wild one. And I agree with you. It's like, even though. Even though you're like, did that really happen? It really is like. But even if it is completely made up, the reverence toward this woman and her memory and her legacy and what she can teach us, you know, that's to Me that. That's evidence of. Of those. Of those things. Okay, can you talk about the women who dressed up like men? [00:39:58] Speaker B: Yeah, the cross dressers. So there's a few ways to see this probably, and I. I might not be able to hit on all of it. Again, I'm not a historian, but the. There were one of the ways that women became very devoted and what is essentially ascetic practice, like more serious, severe practices. One was just giving up all the beauty standards of the time. And if they were wealthy, you know, they would have been dressed in silks, they would have had jewelry and their hair all did up, you know, really cool, cute. And. And, you know, a lot of them had a lot of money in. At this point. There were a lot of wealthy people in the Roman Empire. Most people were poor, but there were certainly, you know, hundreds and thousands of really wealthy people. And when they wanted to really redouble their devotion in this time of corruption in the church, church and state corruption, they would do things like cut their hair and wear men's clothes. And the one. One woman, her husband hates that. And he, he basically, she has to run away from him. And there's the whole story about she has a daughter and she winds up, after her husband's death, she winds up setting up in Constantinople, I believe. Hopefully I'm getting this right. An entire place for women, like a monastery, but more like just kind of a communal living space that became a place of healing, a place of, I mean, actual healing, physical healing, too. Study and. And devotion. And people would be taught how to read. The sick were cared for, the poor were cared for. All these women who were. Maybe they would be running away or maybe they want a new life. And she. They would take them in. Her story is really amazing. And she was actually imitating two other ladies who had done the same thing. They cut their hair off short like a man's, and then they had worn men's clothing. And then some of these women would, I guess, appear to be eunuchs if they went into a male community. And they would be probably left alone and not be. There wouldn't be like, predation on them or like hopes for romance because they were, in a sense, taking away the sexual part of themselves, the sexuality where they would be judged as female. And. And people might have thought they were male eunuchs or something because they didn't have facial hair. But there was plenty of women who did this. And they just sort of fit into a community that were left alone. And some of them were only found to be women after their deaths, when they were preparing their bodies for burial. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Can we go back to the beauty standards for just a minute? As you were talking, I was remembering I had seen a clip. I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert, who was. Was on some random, you know, clip that came on my for you page. And she had recently. I don't. I don't know how recently. I don't follow her, but she had recently cut her hair very short. And she was being asked about it and what her description of that. She just said, yeah, there's this beauty standard for. For women. We all know it. We know that there's a double standard of this. And. And she said, you know, as a public figure, she would go into some of these spaces with, you know, celebrities. And she said that she would notice that the men are wearing short hair, sometimes, you know, shaved or buzzed. That basically required no maintenance. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:43:39] Speaker A: You know, that was the point. So their hair is short. It requires no maintenance. There's no expectation at all for them to have any sort of makeup on at all. They're wearing generally comfortable clothes and comfortable shoes. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:54] Speaker A: And she said, and she's looking around, and the women in the space are. Are. Have none of those things. [00:43:59] Speaker B: It's the opposite. Yeah. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Like, their hair takes so much maintenance, and it's expensive. It might be time consuming. [00:44:07] Speaker B: It might be like extensions, too, to make it fuller and beautiful. And that saves money and time, color. [00:44:12] Speaker A: And cut and, you know, all of it. And then time to just style it. You know, every time they want to go out like that, there's a full expectation that they will come in a full face of makeup. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Which was not the same with men. The clothes not comfortable and the shoes not comfortable. You know, and so she's like, I'm looking here and I'm going, why am I doing this? And, you know, and she said, rather than waiting for the standard to change, which is probably not going to happen anytime soon, she's like, I just decided I'm not going to play by that rule, basically. And so she cut her hair short, wears comfortable hair, you know, comfortable shoes, comfortable clothes, doesn't feel the need to put on all of the makeup. But it was. She was like, I. [00:44:56] Speaker B: The. [00:44:56] Speaker A: The men have this one standard and the women have this other standard. And that was really fascinating to me. But it's also fascinating that all of these centuries ago. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:07] Speaker A: There are some women who are rebelling against the same kind of thing. [00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah, they're giving it up. It's also. We dress as women we dress for the gaze of men, whether we realize it or not, to be acceptable to women, but to women who. And who are going along with. What do men like to see? And there will be people. If you take. If you shave your hair down. I'm sure she's been said, oh, you're ugly now, are you? No one man would. Would want to. And. And I'm sure she's like, I don't care. You know, but there's plenty of women who are like, well, I want to be appealing and attractive to men. And I. How am I gonna. How am I gonna get a family? How am I gonna. And. And there's this pressure that we put on ourselves, which is real, you know, like, you will be penalized if you're not the appropriate way according to the standard. You will be penalized culturally or socially or in some way, or you can be. Men, for whatever reason, will take it upon themselves to tell you how you should dress and what would help and maybe smile more. I was like, how is this your business? But it kind of is their business because the culture is around what pleases men, what do they desire? And, you know, even my daughter deals with this when she. She works in the public. And. And people will give her tips and tricks and hints on how she can look more attractive. And it's. She's like, what's happening? This is wild to me. And I'm like, it. I was. When I grew up, I. Without thinking, I was like, oh, yeah, assimilate, assimilate. You know, and she's kind of like, wait a second, this seems a little unfair. I'm not going to tell him how to, you know, maybe. Maybe you should wear a shirt that fits you, you know, or whatever. But. Yeah, what's interesting is that when women devoted themselves to God, they weren't thinking of men and pleasing men. They were thinking about what is pleasing to God. The heart, you know, not the. Not the hair, you know, and it didn't matter. But also, I think they had. That was their way of saying, anything that the world offers me, I don't care about it. There's nothing. There's nothing I want from this world that you've set up. Kind of. That's. That's difficult for me. You know, there's. They're really some courageous, interesting people. But that's also, like, if you look back at the pictures of that time too, a lot of women would just totally wrap their heads, like, we would call them Hajibs now and as a Muslim thing. But in that Part of the country. That's always what was happening with women, too. And so in a way, there's. There's some anonymity there, too. They kind of lose their anonymity in a. In a way that's positive for them because they're fitting into an entire community. They don't need to stand out and individualize. [00:47:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear that. I just, I was like, wow, this beauty standard thing, we're just still there. We're just still there. Lisa, I've got two more asks, and I'm going to ask them at the same time so that you're. Your mind can be thinking about the second one. So first, I would like for you, if you would, to give us a preview into some of the, Some of the ways that you name that the desert elders help us with our own spiritual formation, practices, disciplines, things that we might be doing now without living in the desert or even visiting the desert, since that is your jam. I'm, you know, for. And there are folks I'm so grateful to see. I think even the phrase spiritual formation is becoming more. More known. And some of these disciplines and practices, I think, are becoming a little bit. They feel more accessible maybe, than they did a few years ago. That might just be my imagination or maybe it's my own exposure. But. But yeah. So I'm wondering if you can help us with that, give us a little preview into that. And then I am also wondering, I didn't warn you about this, so the answer can totally be no, thanks. But I wonder after that, if, to close us, if you might be willing to read one of the prayers from the ends of one of the chapters, pick your favorite or pick the one that you're kind of feeling today. And I have to admit, as I was going through and flipping through the book this morning, there was at least one or two that I just paused and I'm like, I need that one today. So. So, yeah, so I. So I have been doing that already this morning. But first, maybe the spiritual formation piece. [00:49:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So spiritual formation is sort of this broad term, you could call it growing into Christ likeness. But also spiritual formation can happen. It doesn't happen just in Christianity alone. I like to tell people, maybe remind people that God is not a Christian and just let people sit with that for a second. Just realize, orientate yourself, God isn't a Christian. We can approach God as Christians and with Christ as our savior and grow in Christ likeness. But what we're talking about when we speak about God is something really immense. The Ground of being. And so what I have in the end of each chapter is different questions to read and reflect and respond prayerfully. And then a prayer, if you people want to read one of those, to kind of devotionally sort of get your heart in a place where you can be ministered to by the Holy Spirit. One of the things I was really taught, and there's plenty of different spiritual practices that the desert elders have, but they mostly rely around prayer and silence. They use this thing. They still use it in Eastern Christianity and Oriental Christianity. And that is a prayer rope, which some of us might know. Oh, is that a rosary? Is that what that means? You say the Hail Marys and stuff, and eventually Catholicism had the rosary and these different sets of prayers. But one of the prayers that they would pray over and over to kind of center their heart is the prayer that the publican says in Jesus's parable, lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner. And they have these prayer ropes with. In this tradition. You can still get them now. And here's one. I got one here, too. It's this little. This little one here. And there's 33 knots on it for the 33 years of Christ being on earth. And you say, lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner. And then you move to the next knot and you say that. You say slowly and reflectively, and you let it penetrate your heart. And the very first time I began praying like this, I was so engulfed in shame that when I would say the word sinner, I felt disconnected from God. I felt bad. And I say to my spiritual director at the time, a woman I had as a spiritual director for a few years. And we'd meet every month and we just talk about, you know, where is God, and you're seeing God in your life and all these great questions. And she gave me this book, and it said about kind of reframing that to not be sort of shame centered. So what I wound up doing is instead of saying a sinner, I would pray, lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, your child. And I just let that sit with me. I let that kind of come into my consciousness. I'm the child of God. I'm beloved, and I'm also a sinner. Welcome to the club. Welcome to humanity. But until I felt close with God, I said, your child. And now I can say a sinner. Because it isn't something that distances me from God. I just realized God loves me just as a sinner as well. And so, of course, all my sins are forgiven by the work of Christ, but we still sin and we still need to come back and say, yeah, this is, I'm showing up, I need your help, you know, pick me off the ground and put me back on the trellis again. And so this prayer that, that was just, it's considered an arrow prayer kind of goes quickly and straight to God. This is something these desert people, the mothers and fathers and the desert dwellers would be encouraged to do in their cell. Pray for hours and allow that to change. You allow yourself to sort of be softened by it. So that's one of the most probably powerful, spiritually formative things that I incorporate into my life. But also that that's directly from them, from their inspiration. [00:53:55] Speaker A: So yeah, that's super beautiful. Thank you so much for that. Lisa, do you have another prayer you'd. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Like to share with us on, on page 80? It's right after I speak about a bunch of the different ladies that came out to the desert or who were influential in that time period. I really appreciate this prayer and I hope that it's, I hope that it's meaningful as I, as I say it now. So it's oh Lord, I am fully dependent on you for each breath and in every gifted moment I give you my gratitude. Help me to realize that my self sufficiency will cut me off from my own blessing and from blessing others. My life is made beautiful through generosity and interdependence. Fill me with a grateful heart and a generous spirit. I ask amen. And that's in the avarice chapter because it's about not just being greedy, but worrying about the future as it relates to money and provisions. And instead the desert elders invite us to rely on God for our provision. And that doesn't mean you just stay in your house and do nothing, but it means that you don't get wrapped up in the anxiety and concerns about providing for yourself. That generosity is actually this escape hatch to this temptation that we all have of avarice and greed and keeping for ourselves even being beyond what we need. [00:55:31] Speaker A: Believe it or not, that one was also on my list. We didn't get to it, but I, I'm so appreciative of your visit with me today, Lisa. So appreciative of this book. Again, it's called the Way of the Desert Elders. How the Wisdom of Ancient Christians Sustains Us Today by Lisa Colon delay and the link where people can grab that will be in the show notes of this episode. But thank you so much Lisa for coming on. This has been a real joy I'm. [00:56:01] Speaker B: So happy for the opportunity. Thank you so much. [00:56:04] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected] Sam.