Episode 329 - Collin Cornell

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Colin? Okay, I'm of two minds here because in some ways this, what we're getting ready to record feels like a brand new conversation, and in other ways, it is really a conversation you and I have been having for years now, I think. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Yes, years, yes, definitely my sense, years. [00:01:07] Speaker A: But I will tell you, there is something about. There was something about picking up this book for me, reading it in its entirety, and some of the bits and pieces of our casual conversation that got put together in this book. So anyway, the holistic picture was really helpful for me, namely, I'll say it at the start and then hopefully we'll get there. We kind of talked about the Israel piece, but I feel like we danced around it in some of our other conversations. I really want to hit that today, if we can. And the Incarnation piece, the same kind of thing. I think we talked about it, probably partially driven by me, like, okay, Colin, yeah, this is a great idea, but, like, what does it logistically mean? What is the boots on the, the ground? What are the practical implications? And then reading this, I'm like, all of that's really good. And I want the theology, I want the biblical study. So I'm going to name what we're going to talk about today, and then we'll just get going. Okay. My friend Colin Cornell has written an incredible book called God Draws Near, Rethinking a Biblical Theology of Mission. I want to say the title again. God Draws Near. Colin, this book is about communion. [00:02:28] Speaker B: It really is. Yes. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Not the Eucharist per se, but communion. Communing God with people and creation. [00:02:38] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah, that's totally right. [00:02:43] Speaker A: I would say I'm blown away because as we'll get into when. I won't say that we're, we're. We're. We are. Especially as we're coming up on this timeframe. Okay. It's November. We're going to be getting into Advent soon. Yes. This is the thing. God came to be with us. He dwelt among us and all of these things, and. Which is great, but I feel like in general, for the rest of the year. When we think about God, as you point out in the book, a lot of what we think about relationally with God is that God is in the business of repairing and Jesus was in the business of repairing. And that is necessary, as you say in the book, but it feels very different. And so I just want to come out and say this book is about the idea that God came and God exists to commune with us, which is that Christianity 101, maybe. But do we live like it is? I don't think so. That's my $0.02 to get us started. You should talk now. [00:03:43] Speaker B: I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I'm actually really thankful, thankful first of all to you for the repeat, repeat kind of invite here onto your podcast. Really thank you, Alexis, for that. And I'll say too that I was really looking forward to this conversation, first of all, just to hear more of your sort of thoughts and feelings, reactions, your experience of reading it. Because honestly, I've heard from the endorsers whose job it is to endorse. I've heard from a couple other people, mentors and friends, but mostly I don't think have a feeling yet myself of like, how, how is this for folks to read just like as an experience. So I'm really looking forward to that. It's also special to be talking with you because you were like integral to this whole thing from the outset and this podcast is integral to the whole thing from the outset that, you know, really like, you know, first episode that you recorded, you, you know, graciously invited me. That was sort of the precursor, the antecedent to this book. And I was really grateful to you then for your interest in the why Jesus? Question you asked actually in the hallway in our old, old office suite here at Fuller, Texas. And that surfaced again in the, in the initial podcast interview. Anyways, that's just to say that was a key encouragement to me at that very early stage of thinking. Is there something here to, for me to, to really think more deeply about that would be engaging to sort of people beyond just the sort of very, you know, kind of specific theological academy. And so special to be here again and to be talking about more or less the same themes and foci texts issues. Yeah. And honestly, that first conversation is still really kind of dear to me. Feel like we got into some of the, the heart of what why this matters to me and hopefully, you know, matters to to other people. So again, my thanks for the sort of repeat invite and it's special to be back here with you And I'm also grateful lastly on this that you introduced the book in that way because there's a lot in there, a lot of different kind of bells and whistles. And so I'm. I really am thankful that you kind of saw right to the core animating center or theme of the book, which is communion. Yeah. If people miss that for the geometric stuff, for some of the Israel and convoluted stuff or history of mission thinking stuff, there's a lot of different kind of rabbit trails. I feel like folks could be headed down with the book. So I appreciate that clarity. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, you're really kind, Colin. I feel like all I've done is just harass you with questions so that it at all benefited your work in some way. Feels like anyway strange to me, but also pretty cool. I will say the conversation that you referenced, I'll put it in the show notes here. I was just messing around my podcast app the other day, like the creator app, and I was pleasantly surprised. I don't know why I was surprised, but I was kind of like, whoa. That episode is still in the top three most listened episodes of this podcast of all time. We have over 300. We've been doing this since the fall of 2019. And that particular episode really, I mean, I think that when I, when I happened to look a couple of days ago, it was number two. I mean, which, which is. Yeah. Which was kind of like fun. And you know, it was. Anyway, it was fun because we're friends, but I was just also like, wow, there must be something to this that at least in my small, little, tiny corner of the world, people are really interested in. Maybe some people have same questions that you and I have been. Have been talking about for a few years. So I'll. I'll put it in here so people can revisit it if they haven't hear, heard it or visit it if they haven't heard it and maybe revisit it. Because I think it is, as you mentioned, worth a re. Listen. Yes, God Draws near is about communion. Some of the questions that I had then I feel more comfortable with now. But I also really appreciate how you've addressed them in the book. So I think it would probably be an okay place to start. I have shared this with you that I felt very late to the game that I didn't know kind of the way I'll use Eric woods, even no one can see me. That we're supposed to think about God's story with the world is in this four part narrative. This linear first we have creation, then we have the fall, and then we have redemption and then we have this consummation. I didn't know that. I remember seeing that on a PowerPoint in a sermon and talking about it like as if it was just the way that we understood Scripture or the way that we understood our relationship to God. And I was like, I don't really know that I've ever seen that before. So in some ways it was beneficial because when I'm reading some of your stuff, I don't have to unlearn some of the things that I had seen. But in some ways it felt very strange because I felt like the odd person in the room who didn't already know this. I want you to talk about that. But what I want to name as a reader, and I would say as a theology student, something that I have seen over the years is like, wow, some of this stuff that we just think this is just the way it is kind of this it is what it is, is not really that. It's not even how the historical church has viewed things necessarily. And many of these ideas are very young. Like I would say, like this idea is like similar age to my parents. So the I. So the thought of like this four part kind of act, you know, some people even talk about it like a play or this drama. It's like this isn't actually. This is pretty young. Like it's just older than us. But because it's older than us, it's all we've ever known. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Yep. [00:09:48] Speaker A: So talk about it. [00:09:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so right. And I, I think that for a lot of people when they initially encounter that holistic vision of the Bible, all the different individual pieces are put together into one really digestible storyline or drama. That's a powerful experience because not everybody in church or Sunday school or college even necessarily has somebody who frames the Bible in that way. So that it is very possible. It is, is really the case for many people, devoted churchgoing people who only hear the Bible in bite sized chunks. And so hence it can be really kind of powerful experience to see it put together in that way with those four episodes that you named. Sometimes there's five, sometimes there's six. But, but you're totally right that that, that specific way of articulating how the Bible coheres together is relatively young. And that was somewhat of a discovery for me in the process of researching the book. I didn't know that and found that out in the course of reading through a whole lot of older texts about the Bible and mission from the 30s, 40s, even 50s, and seeing there that folks who were really deeply concerned about God's mission in the world and trying to read Scripture in a coherent, united way didn't organize it in that fashion. They didn't actually very oftentimes start with Genesis. The Abraham story was sometimes missing entirely things that are just sort of unthinkable to us now as the sort of inheritors and recipients of that specific architecture from putting the Bible together. But yeah, you're right, it was, it was not always the case. And that really seeing the difference of those early, early works of the, you know, 20th century made me curious about how do we. How did we get here? What were the sort of processes, factors, stimuli that, that led to the more or less dominance of that approach to the Bible as one big story or one big drama with those key narrative episodes. Creation that starts off good, even perfect, the Fall that interrupts that, and Mars creation in some way, and then mission as God's work to remedy that situation. Maybe repair isn't the best word. Christopher Wright didn't particularly enjoy it in his response to the book. But even if we say restoration or redemption, same difference that it is God's response to the crisis that the fall occasioned. And yeah, anyway, so that emerged under specific forces around the year 1950 and then came to dominate and really prevail throughout biblical theology of mission, literature and beyond as well. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Well, and as you said, regardless of what word you use, the thing that I really came away in this book that solidified some of our previous conversations is repair, restoration, all those things. Like once it's done, it's done is kind of the point. Right. Like, so, I mean, it's not. This on has an end. You know, you, you rip a piece of paper and you put tape on it and then you're. It's done. It's. You've repaired it or whatever. And that. That piece is the one that. One of the ones that I have wrestled with that was one of the driving of, like the why Jesus? Question. I want to pause for a second and say I'm talking to a biblical scholar who is also a missiologist. It was very obvious that a biblical scholar, to me, it was very obvious that a biblical scholar wrote this book. But one of the things, I am not a biblical scholar and you know that one of the things, though that did strike me in one of the things I had in my head while I was reading on your response to this dramatic paradigm was language that I learned in seminary about talking about the Bible that was really helpful for me is to talk about it as sacred texts with an S at the end. We can debate whether or not that's the best way to do it, but it helps me understand that what you're saying is true, that it is a whole bunch of different writings from a whole bunch of different people in a whole bunch of different settings throughout a very large span of history, taking place in different, similar, but different, even geographic regions with different cultures, you know, all these kinds of things. And. And it feels that up against this, well, it is just one big grand story. Doesn't feel. I mean, at least it just kind of doesn't feel maybe the most sincere way to combine all of this diversity of the Bible. Like we put it in one binding, but there is a lot of diversity inside of that. So that is. That was helpful for me to think about as we were going through. A couple of the other things that you talk about in your response to this geometric Bible is you really bring in the Tabernacle and the Song of Songs. Now I'm going to be real. When I knew that you were bringing in the Song of Songs, Colin, I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to have to tune out. I hate it. And I cannot tell him that I'm going to have to tune out, but I'm going to have to tune out because I am so sick of people bringing in Song of Songs in all these different ways. And I'm like, what am I going to do? How am I going to. How am I going to talk to him about this? Okay, I was wrong to think that. I maybe wasn't wrong to think that, but I was. I was. I was wrong. After I read it, I was like, okay, I buy this. Like, so, just so you know, I buy it. But I want to talk about those two texts and how they come in particularly. Number one, you already named kind of this emphasis on Genesis and the emphasis on Creation, and you shift that emphasis to the tabernacle specifically, which I think is beautiful, but also with the tabernacle. So I'd say Song of Songs, as you point out, is a really important text inside of Judaism. So I'll let you kind of name how you. How the nomenclature you have there for. For. For how. How it's viewed. But then also I have been inside of. Of. Of Christian settings where the tabernacle is emphasized more in relationship to the incarnation, the feast of Tabernacles being one of those things. The tabernacle text as being emblematic of the incarnation of Jesus and things like that. And so those things were also just kind of stirring in my mind while. While I was reading this book. But I'm wondering if you can talk about when we say if the focus isn't repair, if the focus is communion, why are the Tabernacle and Song of Songs texts important to that? Like, as a biblical scholar, you bring those out and so. Why? Why those? [00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's such a good question. And there's a lot there. I mean, I'm grateful you pointed out the way that the Bible contains multitudes. And by organizing the Bible into one big story of redemption or restoration, one side effect of that is to maybe marginalize is too strong of a word, but somewhat diminish the volume of certain biblical texts because they don't as neatly contribute to that theme. And so this is not a unique observation to me. My colleague Chloe sun has written, for example, about how Ruth and Esther are more or less missing from some pretty prominent works in this genre of biblical theology of mission. Others have pointed out how Job is underplayed or Ecclesiastes. And part of the reason for that isn't only androcentrism, though that's relevant and I think kind of ties into this conversation, but is also just because in no very obvious way is, you know, ecclesiastes redemptive. It's not talking about sin and salvation. Whatever it's addressing is something else beyond that. And so similarly with Job, too, I think, you know, in a different way, rupture, maybe repair fits that somewhat, but kind of more awkwardly than the sort of, you know, governing account of a creation fall and so on. And so why those texts, the tabernacle texts and Song of Songs texts? Because for me, those texts really, in a very clear and direct way, follow a distinct logic from repair or restoration. And the way that they present God engaging with creatures is much more explicable in terms of God's will to commune. Now, that's tricky in the case of Song of Songs, since it's really about clearly human lovers. So I had to do some sort of, you know, interpretive finessing there to make that text, bring it into contact with a sort of theology of God and creatures, or God and humans. But nonetheless, the Song of Songs is important because of how it is. Troubleshooting, problem solving, remedying, repair are completely absent from is whatever else we want to say about it. It is a celebration of togetherness, enjoyment, sensuality, just presence. It's just. It's just about people who are Very excited to be together, to experience each other. And if, if we're, if it's sort of, you know, if we can authorize by extension, that same kind of reasoning to. To God and creatures, then it allows us to envision God as well as simply enjoying, seeking presence, togetherness, sharing with humans. And so that's why it's important to me again, because it's such a clear case where the logic of repair breaks down. It doesn't really fit that text very well at all. And we need something else to describe what we see happening in that text. And so likewise with the tabernacle, that, for me, it's another case in Scripture where God's activity in relation to Israel doesn't seem to fit very well with an exclusively reparative paradigm. God is seeking to be present in the midst of Israel, but not only to resolve sin or to atone. That's certainly in the mix. But the whole extravagant, detailed account of the tabernacle isn't driven by that. It's much more concerned with the beauty of the place itself, the sort of lavish ingredients that construct the tabernacle, the willingness of the people to donate, and the blessing that Moses gifts to the people at its completion. And also the blessing that God commissions Moses to transmit to Aaron and his sons at arguably a pretty climactic moment of the daily service. So that blessing, which is to say God's nearness and goodwill are at the heart of that whole very complicated account. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Okay, we're getting in dangerous territory because I'm going to start talking to think here. I don't have any notes, Colin. I just, I. Anyway, before we signed on, I was like, I just feel really unprepared right now. But part of it is because we've been having this conversation for a while and I really like the book. I've got it. My notes are all inside of it. So anyway, I'm going to talk to think here for a second, so bear with me because it feels a little dangerous. I'm thinking about the tabernacle text and even the Song of Songs, and help me if I misread, please correct me. If I misunderstood, please correct me. But one of the things I think that you talk about is that there are like, acts of creation and there are acts of repair. So as we're kind of going through the scriptures, as we're thinking about even our world, instead of kind of a, this creation happened and now that part's over. And then now we're in this central piece where the fall is happening and Then, and then, you know, Jesus, incarnation, that's where it kind of gets kind of fuzzy because we got the crucifixion and then we're joining in with this repair work, which you're talking about theology of mission. And then the goal is this reparative or restorative work you talk about. I think more. There are acts of creation. So God is continually participating in creation. We are participating too, I think, even as creatures in our creaturely way, in acts of creation. And, and things are happening like the people of Israel and us, we are continuing to kind of mess things up and then God is continually coming in. Yes, there is repair work on behalf of God, but that doesn't seem to be the focus. It is, it exists, but that's not really kind of what's happening. That's not the main event. So I'm thinking about this. You're a parent now. I am a parent as well. And I'm thinking about if I dropped my kids off at their grandparents house and let's pretend an accident happened and someone dropped and broke something valuable that belonged to my parents. I'd probably, I'd probably be made aware of that when I picked them up. But my grandparents, because we know parents change into grandparents and they become something otherworldly when this happens. People that we don't recognize. At least that's how my parents became. And then it was like, yeah, I'd probably be made aware, oh well, this vase got busted. But you know what? No worries, we cleaned it up. Whatever. That would be a very minor conversation. Probably exactly what I just told you. Maybe there would be a follow up question and that's it. The rest of it would be about them being together, as you point out in this book, the togetherness. Maybe there's activities. What did you do? Maybe it's just a bunch of sitting on the couch, laying around together or talking and you know, whatever. But the point of the visit is this communion. And if things happen that need to be repaired in the meantime, that kind of happens. And it's not that we don't report on it, it's fine that we do, but it's not really the main focus. That chapter isn't really entitled the Vase that Broke or if it is, it's a chapter, but it's not the whole volume. And so the. When, when you wrote about the tabernacle texts and the Song of Songs, even that there is literarily, I don't know if we would say there's conflict in the Song of Songs. If there Is like there's moments we. We can't find each other. We don't know where we are, what's happening, you know, some of these things, but those are just kind of obstacles. Not really. Like the main point of the show. The main point of this show is these people want to be together. The main point of the tabernacle show is God wants to be with the people and the people want to be with God. And there are major messes in the tabernacle texts when you bring up golden calf do we don't need to say much. People are getting swallowed whole under the earth. There's fire. That is very odd. You know, all of these things. But. But the main point is like God just wants to be with. With these people. You're right there. His good. God's goodwill toward God's people is overwhelming. And that, that part I think felt so good to read, especially thinking about creation not as something that has happened, but as something that is ongoing. You know, I was thinking about when you, when you write about. Made me think about more. When you write about the people who are in charge of building the tabernacle and what that looked like for them and what that says about God's nature and God's desire for relationship. I don't have a question. I just kind of, like I said, I'm talking to think. So help me, help me talk through that. When we're talking about a more. You call it a geometric perspective on the Bible as opposed to this kind of linear, first this, then this, then this, then this. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that. That's how really, really helpful that this, then this. Because my sense reading works that are very much devoted to that kind of single linear unfolding of the Bible and of God's mission within it, that it is this than this. In other words, the designs that God had for creation are decisively interrupted by the fall. And then on the far side of the fall, there's only room, if you will, narratively or biblically, for God to do one thing, which is to respond to that problem or set of problems. I don't want to underplay the sort of weight of sin and evil and fallenness and oppression and all that. Whereas I, especially from teaching intro Old Testament now for a while, have become much more convinced that what we see playing out even in the first 11 chapters of Genesis isn't only this tragic spiral, this avalanche of increasing sin and deterioration. It is that things do get worse. We go from the first humans, you know, eating in, you know, against God's Will, to fratricide, to more violence, to the flood, to the Tower of Babel. So there is a sort of deterioration there, a decline. And yet at the same time, at each step along the way, creation assumes a fuller shape. And that is what God always intended for creation. So that yes, the first humans, they sin and it is, and they experience loss, but at the same time they also move from innocence to a kind of maturity, sexuality, being clothed. And I don't think it's the case that the Bible or God opposes that. That's just growing up. So the pathway they took to that result was tragic and, and kind of maybe accelerated or even perverse. But the result is God's intention. God meant to bring creation into a, a deeper, more complicated, beautiful condition. So likewise with Cain, yeah, fratricide is very deeply disturbing and wrong. And yet his descendants are the ones who invent music, metalworking. Cain builds the first city. And that I think corresponds to God's purpose. God meant for humans and other creatures to complexify, to multiply, to exercise our different sort of creative powers, to bring creation into a different, different shape. And same, same story can be told, I think, and it's been maybe more familiar to some listeners in this, in the story of Tower of Babel, which many of us grew up hearing, the Tower of Babel preached as only a judgment. And that can cast human diversity and the multitude of human languages in a tragic light. So that the reason why we're so different from each other and spread out all over and speaking different languages is really sad. And that obviously points us, postures us certain, maybe certain way towards just diversity and, you know, multiplicity of languages. And so as a response to that, many Christians have reclaimed a different understanding of the Tower of Babel not only as a judgment, that's true, but also as ultimately conforming to God's will for humans. God wanted for people to be, to spread out all over, to be different, to sort of, you know, have distinct cultures and languages and heritages and live in different places. That's what God wants. The route they took to that result was messed up, but the result is God's purpose and creation sort of bring, you know, coming into a fuller shape. Same thing. This is my long winded way of saying the Tabernacle story is arguably within that same kind of trajectory that getting there contained some tragedies, some downfalls, some errors, some heartache, and some loss. But that's folded into the fact that by constructing this place for God to meet with Israel and with other creatures, that is in fact, what God wanted all along. And so just the fact that there's tragedy and repair nested inside of that story doesn't mean that that's the whole story. But the point is, again, long way of answering your question or reflecting with you, I guess, is that that flexibility to be able to spot that there's multiple kind of logics happening, that one might be kind of somehow fitting inside of the other or operative in a really helical way, sort of, you know, braided together in some fashion, those moves are unavailable to somebody who is only reading the Bible in terms of being one big redemptive or reparative story. So. So I was pressed to think up, how can I. How can I accommodate what I see happening in this text, which is, as you say, creation continuing? God continued to bring creatures into this beautiful, fuller or complicated shape, even as God is also responding graciously and sometimes judgingly, to the different events of disobedience and evil. How can I have both of those in the same frame of vision? And so the geometric language and that that concept is just kind of an experiment, honestly, an attempt to fit all that in the same, just kind of keeping them together in some way, but being able to honor that, that sort of multitude or kind of plurality of what we see happening, creation continuing, deepening, intensifying, beautifying, and also sin, evil, and the divine response to them. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Part of what I'm thinking when you're talking about that is like, how I'm really grateful for my MDev experience, my seminary experience, because part of what I was taught to do in my biblical interpretation courses as an example, was to imagine as I was reading and interpreting. And what I mean by that, what the point of that to say is, to say this gives. Helps to give us at least an idea of what a fuller picture of some of these flattened characters and stories might be. And for me, literally flat. Like I grew up, felt bored, right. Like I grew up, felt bored, Sunday school, you know, one example of that, I wrote a. A paper in one of my biblical interpretation classes where we had to kind of pick a technique and use it. And I went through, and I'm looking at the story of David and Bathsheba. And I'm. My assignment that I kind of gave myself, and, you know, we were kind of picking one, was, okay, I'm just going to put myself in the shoes of Bathsheba. And, you know, one of the things I noticed is she doesn't really have any words, you know, in that story. And so gosh how much. How must that feel? If I'm hurt, I don't have any words right now, but I'm probably having some feelings. So I use that as an example to say. And even with David, you know, I remember I've always really, really, really struggled with David because I was kind of discipled to just name him as one thing. Well, David is a man after God's own heart. He's the king of Israel. Well, David was a lot more than that. And he was more than just that. And a murderer if you say that he was more than just that. And a rapist if you say that he was also a parent. He was a complex figure. He was a man on the run. He was a servant. He was all of these different things. And I'm saying that to say the complexity that you're talking about in some of those stories and the maturing, if we allow those characters and those stories to mature is something that I would say maybe I haven't felt afforded to me in that dramatic paradigm, but I would just say kind of in general, I feel like a lot of times these stories and characters get kind of flattened. And what if. I think one of the major takeaways I had from my seminary experience is like, kind of, what if I treated some of these stories and characters like I would a friend or a family member? That they're really complex. There's lots of things going on, lots of things happening, lots of moving parts, even at times. And to think about it in that way is really helpful. I don't want to say that none of these other theologians have ever done that, but I will say that there is a. I think as a teacher, which a lot of theologians are also teachers, I think there is something to just say, can we just get a bullet point here to help people understand? Can we get an outline or something like that? And I think that is very, very beneficial in many ways. And in. Sometimes it ends up being a disservice when it's kind of maybe overused or something like that. So anyway, all of that is fine. Just kind of. My little two cents. One of the areas you brought up that I want to talk about, I talked about the beginning is God's relationship with Israel as an example of what you were just talking about. There are lots of technical terms in the book. We can talk about history and tradition and all of this. But again, to. To. To put my foot in my mouth and do exactly what I was. What I was calling out some other people for doing, to say to simplify it. Christians for centuries now, but even in the US Right now kind of see Israel as utilitarian. Israel was a tool of God's for the purpose of this redemption that we've been talking about this whole time. There is an issue with that. For me personally, I will say this. I was raised on Lifetime movies. Okay. You probably don't even know what those are. But anyway, these movies where, like, all this relationship is really dramatic. It's probably like the dark side of Hallmark Channel, you know, is. But. But like 20 years ago or 30 years ago, probably, but meaning it's kind of like relationally, if someone is done with you and then they throw you out, or let's say this, you see someone become done with your best friend, they throw your friend out. Are you chomping at the bit to go into a relationship with that person, friendship or otherwise? This is how I have felt about this teaching with God in Israel. If he chucked them, what is there to say? He won't check me or you or anyone else. If the church has, quote, replaced Israel because there was a spot there to fill because Israel is done now, then what on earth or in heaven is there to keep God from replacing you and me with the next pretty thing? This has always felt relationally really problematic for me. For me, honestly, it's like I don't even care about the theology is where I've lived most of the time. It is. I just want to know what kind of God am I getting in with here? Am I in with this kind of God who is done becomes done with people? Because I don't know that I'm really that interested. [00:40:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:59] Speaker A: If that's the case. [00:41:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:02] Speaker A: And. And part of what I know that this has been something that theologically, you focused on in a lot of other places besides this book that you've worked in. But one of the things that stood out to me here, and I'm going to ask you to go real specific and go real, like, language and biblical scholar, like, go professor on me. Here is the language of God, God's blessing. We're talking about God's blessing with Abraham. Because I will tell you, when I read this, I was like, oh, yeah, I studied that when I took Hebrew a hundred years ago. And I couldn't quite remember what. What it was until I read it here. And now I'm like, now I'll never forget it, because it got. It got reinforced again many years later in a way that I could understand. Understand a little better, because Huber is not my thing. But I would love it if you would talk about that, however, makes sense in this context to talk about that, because I think it's. That's a really important kind of data point for me and understanding maybe what we're missing, part of what we're missing in God's relationship with Israel and how that connects with us, you know, because I think it matters. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Oh, it matters so much. Yeah. I'm just kind of nodding along with you, Alexis. Yeah. And really, I'm grateful that you brought up earlier. I didn't. I don't think I touched on it. Kind of the example of your kids staying with the grandparents, breaking a vase and just how that would be kind of a blip in a day as a parent, how that might be a chapter in a larger story, but not. It wouldn't be the sort of centerpiece or the fulcrum, the driving, you know, animating force of the story. And, and so similarly too, here you're. You're bringing up the way that in. In Lifetime movies in the past that somebody who treats kind of another, a partner as a. In such a replaceable way is just fundamentally untrustworthy. These are related to me because the sort of possibility of. Of a terminus, an end point. You already said this, but I'm trying to connect this together that's already built in to. To a story of repair. And that in effect, kind of hangs over the various participants, characters, partners, that same possibility of. Of the relationship coming to an end, since it answers to a specific assignment and a reparative assignment at that. So that is the danger under which the people Israel have usually operated in Christian theology and in biblical theology of mission discourse is that either the people Israel were meant to witness ahead of time, to incubate the Messiah in some way. And then having done that, their status is up in the air, I guess, or worse yet. But it's there throughout the literature that Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, to announce God's saving purpose to the Gentile world. And they did not do that. And so they sort of failed in their vocation. And on that those same grounds, their status is questionable at best, if not just obsolete. That matters, like you said, because if that is the story that's in the background for us as Christians, I think that that trickles down into how we envision ourselves, how we look at other people, how we practice ministry and discipleship. I think it really, really matters. And all that is embedded in the prevailing interpretation that you're bringing up of The Abraham, technically Abram story in Genesis 12, the first three verses of that chapter have become, since the year, around the year 1950, a flagship verse. And I would say for mission thinking, but well beyond mission thinking. I mean, you can encounter Genesis 12, the calling of Abraham, as. As this charter text for understanding Israel's vocation of understanding, you know, the current aspirations of mission today. Like in a lot of places, it's very, very commonplace. And how that works really is like this, that the. The blessing promised to Abram, most of which in that chapter in Genesis 12 pertain to him and his descendants. But in the. In the final line, verse three, the. The camera, if you will, turns to all the families of the earth who will receive blessing in or through you, through him, through. Through Abraham and his descendants, and especially, I think, under the force of how the apostle Paul uses that text in Galatians. A lot of Christian interpreters understand that. And this especially following one particular interpreter around the year 1950, who trailblazed an exegesis, an interpretation of that text as the beginning of God's answer to the problem set by the first 11 chapters of Genesis. So I assume for a lot of your listeners, this is just going to be so familiar. It's hard to even think that this is. And interpretation of these texts that Genesis 1:11 spells out the problem of human sin and wrongdoing and creation deteriorating. And then Genesis 12 is the initiation of God's redemptive project. It is symmetrical so that all nations are involved in the downfall, in the fall of humankind, and also then all the families of the earth equals that in terms of scope. And that the blessing then is not blessing in the same sense as in Genesis 1, where it's just sheer divine goodwill, you know, sheer God's just pure desire for creatures to flourish and multiply. It's not that in Genesis 12 anymore on this dominant interpretation, instead of. It is the remedy. It's the beginning of the repair. So the bl. What blessing means there is kind of transformed to mean repair and restoration. And it's promised not. Not ultimately to Abraham and his descendants, but rather to all the families of the earth. They are the ultimate recipients, the ultimate targets, if you will, of God's will to bless in that. In that sort of default understanding of that chapter. So I don't know if this will be going professor, enough for your purpose here, but what I really encountered as I researched for the book is that again, that whole outlook really results from one particular German Old Testament scholar, Gerhard van Radd, who offered a reading of that Text, really those texts in Genesis together that brought what had been a pretty obscure chapter before him into the limelight. And it, it proliferated. I mean, when I say that interpretation took off. It's like every book about Genesis and mission after that point, cites him, features his interpretation, echoes his language right up until the present day, where specific turns of phrase, even from his commentary, are peppered throughout. Books that are, were just published, like last year. And so what I tried to do was first just to raise awareness that this is an interpretation and like you already said, a pretty relatively young one in the history of Christian reflection on these texts. So it's not obligatory or necessary in that way. We're a little bit freed up from it. And then to offer an alternative interpretation of that chapter and then that text. And the basic moving parts of the alternative that I presented are that the blessing given by God, promised by God to Abram and his descendants, is in fact more like the opening creation blessing. That blessing is not restoration and repair. Those are there in the Bible. But blessing has its own lane, it has its own integrity. And that when God promises blessing to Abram, it is just that kind of pure divine goodwill and desire for him and his descendants to flourish. In other words, it really is meant for him and not for for others beyond him or outside of him down the line, if that makes sense. And so the reason why all the families of the earth even appear, why the camera pans to them at all, is, is really at the end of the day, only to gauge the enormity of God's blessing to Him. They're not the sort of ultimate recipients. They are instead the onlookers, the spectators. They're the ones who can, can see and appreciate just how enormous, how immense, how legendary his blessedness is. So there's some specific kind of grammatical ways to get at that. I don't know if you want to go there, but this particular Hebrew verb is can, can accept either a sort of passive meaning or something more maybe reflexive, which is to say all the families of the earth receiving blessing, kind of passively receiving the blessing and Abram as the conduit or channel of that or more reflexive interpretation, which again is not original to me, not even original to modern research. Rashi, Jewish medieval commentator, made this interpretation like whatever 1200, that it could mean the nation. All the families of the earth will bless when they speak a blessing. When they bless each other, bless themselves, they will refer to Abraham as the benchmark of extraordinary blessedness. [00:51:59] Speaker A: This. Okay, I, I was going to ask your permission, but I'm not. I almost never do this. But I'm, I'm going to read just a couple of sentences from this part in the book because the word that keeps going through my mind that's helpful for me when I'm thinking about these kinds of things is you said gratuitous like this. So again I said you're an Old Testament scholar, you wrote this book. But so you have a comparison between Psalm 72 and this. And you say the point of portraying this social dimension of blessing is to aggrandize it is not to give the blessing a teleology, a quote, so that, but to show off its scale as you, as you just referred to. So then you say this. The same thing applies to this blessing that you're just, that you were just talking about. And you said it is, it's gratuitous, it's spontaneous, it is earmarked for Abraham and it is so extreme in its size that the legend of it will inspire all peoples of the earth. On such a reading, there can be no obsolescence of Abraham or his descendants. They are not a means that can be set aside once the more ultimate goal is reached. Rather they are the goal meeting Israel. Blessing Israel is God's original creation purpose. And I just have that like dog eared and like a big yeah, I mean you probably can't see this like a big yes with all caps. I mean like love this and, and all this because, because I've been in settings, I have Jewish friends where you know, the, the blessing at the Shabbat table. This is what this reminded me of. And you said something similar in the book. It's like where we say may God bless you like Abraham, may God bless you like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah. Like these people were so blessed. Would, would it be God willing that my children might experience a blessing like our four parents experienced from God? And to connect all of those things, things as you're, as you were putting it, helped helps me resolve some of those ongoing concerns. I would say questions and concerns that I've, that I've had. And so instead of Abraham being this like channel that God's blessing just kind of like goes through God's Abraham and his descendants. It is like the blessing. I wouldn't say the blessing stops here, but the, the blessing is here with Abraham. And then you say that's it. Like that's the point. The point is Abraham gets blessed period. And Abraham's kids, they all get blessed period. Like that's the Point. And then we as outsiders, I would say, get to look at that. And they would. And we would say, oh, is that what this relationship? Is that what this God thing is all about? Because I could get into that. Like, I would love to have some sort of experience where. And then you, you know, fill in the blanks after that. Right. Which is a very different experience than the lifetime maybe I just talked about. Right. So seeing, observing that part of God, not just like getting stuff, but like that God's love is so overflowing for this people group that, that God would just say, be blessed, be blessed, be blessed. We want this. I want this for you. We want this for you. This God wants this for you. Is a much different. It is compelling. It is the thing that would say, oh, like one of my favorite texts, of course, I mean, so many people. But in the Exodus. But one of my favorite texts in the Exodus is when the writer speaks of the strange multitudes just being joined into Israel because they're like, I want that. Like, there's something compelling about how this God is being present, how this God is rescuing, how this God is hearing God's people, that there's something compelling for the multitudes who have nothing to do with that God to say, yeah, what are we supposed to do? We're gonna kill a lamb and eat it and we're gonna stand up and we're gonna get ready and we're gonna pack our stuff. Okay, I'm gang, like, I'll go with you. Because this God offers these, you know, this kind of thing as opposed to, oh, he threw you out like you were trash. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. [00:56:18] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. No, I think that's the Right. Yeah. And you're bringing it kind of within hailing range of how we think about mission as well, which is so important because again, there's many possible definitions of mission, but most of them involve somehow facing outward in some. Some form or fashion. That it's not only kind of what God or God's people do in, in the, in their own selves, but somehow how, how God or how we face towards others of some kind. And so how our own relationship with God, how God relates to God's partners, is like ground zero for modeling any kind of anything attractive, I think, to, to folks who aren't yet convinced, but who might be. Yeah, I think that that's super basic and also maps in some ways, I think, onto some of the incarnation stuff as well in the book. Because what made. I mean, there's a lot of things we might say, about what made Jesus attractive to people. He healed, he spoke, forgiveness, he, he taught. He also, you know, the Gospels are a concern to say about him that his ministry began with his baptism, with his vision, if that's what it is, whatever it is, the sort of experience of belovedness, being God's beloved Son. That's the start, the kickoff of his life and ministry. And the ways that he talked about God as not just a. A parent who seeks out, seeks and saves the lost, but also as one who sends rain on the just and the unjust, who is just a caring and a. And a parental God. That's how he taught his disciples to pray, you know. You know what I mean? So just saying in terms of what makes him attractive, I think in some ways, yes, there's that reparative accomplishment, casting out spirits, releasing people from what throttles them in their lives, but also just his own closeness with God. And in some ways that that's prior, that that literally in the Gospels precedes everything else that he does and is also in some ways kind of what outlasts everything else that he does, that he returns to the right hand of God. So just to say, that's also in some part what makes him attractive. And the book certainly goes on at great length to talk about how a lot of the same intellectual reflexes that build an end point into Israel's relationship with God carry over pretty directly into how we think about the Incarnation. In other words, if God's relationship with Israel revolves around fixing, I mean, not to put it too bluntly, but sort of repairing creation that's broken, and that's also really what the, the presence of God in Jesus Christ revolves around is repairing a creation that's broken. That too is a project with a built in endpoint and that introduces, I think, all kinds of precarity into our relationship with God. So we kind of get it from both directions as you know, a lot of common Christian readers hearing about God's relationship that has a real condition and an end point built in with Israel and then also more implicitly, but nonetheless substantially hearing about what God is doing in Jesus Christ in ways that also have an end point and kind of a. Yeah. Terminus built in. [01:00:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's like, there's like so much there that I. Yeah. That I want to, that I want to say. I almost don't know where. Where to go next. I'm also mindful that I said I want to get to Israel in the Incarnation. We get to the incarnation, I'm like, okay, pick up the book, read the book. We don't have time for incarnation. Terrible Alexis. But, yeah, I think one of. I would say maybe just a couple of quick things. One, and I don't think. I don't remember if either one of these are explicitly reflected the. In the book. But. But my reflections as I was reading are a couple. One, it was like, I remember kind of distinctively years and years ago when I just kind of had this, like, flash of Jesus still has a body. Yeah, like, we don't really talk about that. Like, Jesus still has a body. I think it's like, kind of this under the surface thing. But I started really just, like, letting my imagination go of, like, oh, my goodness, what actually does this mean? And for me, part of what it was. Again, when I'm asking this why Jesus? Question. I'm not trying to be a heretic when I ask, why Jesus, by the way, but I'm just. When I asked this why Jesus? Question, part of it is, I think, just the way. Again, my pastors probably could have told me something different. Maybe I missed it. But growing up, I would say the focus was this redemptive work, as we've been talking about, of Jesus. Meaning, I'm thinking, okay, well, we also hear that God is forever, and there's no beginning and there's no end and blah, blah, blah. And so I'm like, well, here's the deal. You know, like, when you're. When you're working out and you're really irritated with what you have to do. And then I used to have this workout instructor who'd say, you can do anything for 60 seconds. And I'm like, you know what you can do for 60 anyway. But I'm like, but it's kind of like the same way with God. Like, okay, you're eternal. Like, you can do anything for 33 years. I mean, really. I mean, like, to be, like, mean and sarcastic. It's like, what kind of, like, what's the big deal? Like, if God's incarnation was the equivalent of me doing burpees, like, what's the big deal? Like, it was this very, very small snippet in time. And when I kind of had this like, oh, my goodness, Jesus still has a body. Oh, that's not a small snippet in time. That's not an ending. That's not like, when we're communing with Jesus in the. Whatever that might look like in the future, depending upon which scholar you ask. Like, Jesus has a body. Like, I don't even know what that. Like, when I read Hebrews, and there's like, Jesus interceding for me, like, I don't know, is he actually kneeling? Like, you know, these are, like, wild things to think about. But the point is that this matters because there's some. There's an eternal nature to that, which means. I don't know, for me, I'm. I'm using real sloppy language here, because, again, dangerous territory talking, I think. But I'm like, that feels like a much bigger deal. I might even use the word sacrifice. It feels like a much bigger deal to me than just coming down for a moment in human chronological time and then kind of disappearing back into this heavenly void. So that's one thing that I was thinking about when I was thinking when I was reading through the incarnation section, the other one. And then I'll let you have these last thoughts on incarnation. The other reflection I had was you talked a lot about Jesus reparative and redemptive work. And I was thinking about, yes. And there's a lot of stuff in the. In the gospels where I think Jesus. It wasn't just, like, incarnation as this kind of umbrella. Like, yes, he wants to come be with us, but it's like, man, he spent, like, a lot of time, really, to use this communing. Like, he spent, like, a lot of time communing. When you said baptism, I thought you were going to say he started his ministry at the wedding. But, you know, this first miracle, it's like God was. He was just. Jesus was partying with folks. Like, he was. He was accused of partying with folks. You know, like, I'm like, as we record this in just a few weeks, you know, my. My. My sister and nephew were just here in town to help us move, and. And they left. And my nephew said, well, see you in a few weeks, right, for Thanksgiving. And I'm like, we had a great time with them here, but we also had work to do. But in a few weeks, we're traveling for Thanksgiving for the sole purpose, just to be together and party. We're not gonna do anything really kind of technically worthwhile. We're not gonna try to complete any tasks. We're not gonna do. Like, we're not gonna do anything but party. My aunt probably wishes we would do more. I'll try to wash some dishes. But I mean, I'm just saying, like, we're just gonna be together, and Jesus was just with people. I'm like, I think about how many times I. I read, and it's like, well, Jesus was lounging or he was eating or he was hanging out, or he was just chatting with folks. And that to me felt really substantial when I was in that incarnation. Chapter is. I'm like, yes, there is a lot of focus, and I think there should be on the redemptive and reparative work that Jesus did, both through his death, but also through his life. And he. He wasn't. I don't, I don't. I don't get the point. I don't get the perspective from. Of Jesus that he was like, super task oriented. Like. Like, I kind of tend to be sometimes. And I think, like, he just kind of chilled with people, which felt. Yeah. Which felt really good to me to think about was, is that, is that part of what Jesus was all about? I don't want to say is that part of what he accomplished, but was. It was just kind of like being an example, showing us just coming down and just being near to people. I mean, I think about, like, you guys just had a baby. Like, that baby is like really sweet and everything, but he can't do anything. And I'm sorry that I say that to a new parent, but he can't do anything. But I would bet my life savings that some of the most joy that you and your wife have are when you were just next to that baby. [01:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:14] Speaker A: Who can't do anything. [01:06:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:17] Speaker A: And, and, and Jesus, even in his birth and toddlerhood and pre. You know, was just near. He was near to his parents, he was near to his peers. He was, he was just near. And like, what does that look like for God to come and just be near to us, just to be with us, you know, touching, laughing, crying, annoying probably, you know, at times. Like, what, what does that, you know, arguing with his, with his siblings, you know, like, anyway, that to me, I'm like, yes, there was a focus on the redemption, and I think he just hung out a lot. [01:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's so right. And I love it. And I think if there's actually one thing that I sort of, you know, I turned in the manuscript of this over a year ago now. And one thing I think that I might have undersold maybe in part to try to defend or favor the Old Testament, its sort of ongoing value for our Christian, you know, theological reflection. But I might have undersold all what you're saying, kind of all the ways that Jesus in the Gospels isn't only always pursuing restoration, that he does a lot of things that have their own value. Just like the sort of togetherness of the lovers in the song or God's will to meet with Israel and bless Israel in the tabernacle that Jesus also blesses. He does that with kids. He does that at the end of Luke's gospel. He blesses, but also he. He just practices table fellowship, which is kind of what you're observing. He just hangs out with people and seemingly in, in ways that, that's the point of the event. It's not like he, you know, I was waiting to schedule an appointment with, with, you know, Simon the Pharisee, in order to teach or in order to, you know, do, you know, heal everybody there or whatever. It's. That's, that's not the case, that it's sort of. Yeah, it has its own integrity in terms of what he's trying to do and kind of to wrap things up. I guess that, that communion purpose, God's desire to be present with, to join us, maybe even in more deeper kind of language or deeper way, isn't subject to any expiration date. So that the fact that you were observing that the risen Lord still has a body isn't like this mysterious bizarro but really inexplicable fact, which is kind of where it is. If you're just treating the Bible as one big redemption story, there's it. You know, of course, biblical theologians of mission are going to say, yes, Jesus continues to have a body, but they can't really provide very much of a rationale for that because Jesus has done the thing with his body that accomplishes the task God set for the ministry of the Son. Whereas I think if you have a, a fuller account of God's communion purpose, then we have something more to say about why it is that, that Jesus does indeed have a body and that our fellowship with him, that's going to be kind of a permanent feature of it. So, yeah, lots to say there about the Incarnation, but thanks for kind of drawing up those facets of the book. [01:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Colin, as you know, because we've been talking about this for years, I could continue to talk about this for hours and hours today. I loved it. I loved the book. We thankfully ended up with two copies, so my husband does not have to read my marked up copy. I noticed he was, he was, he was reading it this morning, which just kind of put a smile on my face and we'll probably have lots of discussions about it. But I loved it. I loved it. And I just want to say how grateful I am for it because I, I understand that it is I don't really understand. I. I can. I can imagine if I squint my eyes and turn my head to the left that it's probably tough to bring something out like this when this isn't this. I wouldn't say it's necessarily at odds with the prevailing, but it kind of is at odds with the prevailing theologies out there on mission. So anyway, I'm grateful for your, for your acceptance of that, to go out and do that. What last words would you have for people who might be like my pastor that last week? That is what I know that I know. If I know anything, I know that I, you know, this is the way it is. Creation fall, like, or people who would be otherwise hesitant to kind of think about this in a. In a different way. What would be your encouragement if people wanted to start, you know, just start exploring this? [01:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I have anything more complicated to say than just that God is working in your life to bring healing and wholeness to bind up wounds that you and I have experienced. And thanks be to God that that is the case. But God also cherishes you and wants to be present in your life, even apart from our woundedness and need of healing. And that I give thanks for at an even deeper level. Because that, that truth, that reality will persist whatever our condition is, whether we are healed or unhealed, whether we are capable or incapable, whether we are able to join in on God's reparative mission, or whether we are prevented from, with. From life circumstances and things that are not in our control. And so that's really what the book is concerned to foreground. [01:12:42] Speaker A: I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for you, friend. Okay, this one again, the link will be in the show notes as well as the link for my first interview with Colin. This why Jesus interview. The book is called God Draws Near Rethinking the Biblical Theology of Mission by Colin Cornell. Thanks so much for coming on today and spending time with me. [01:13:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you, Alexis. [01:13:07] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and and podcast production by Seth Busetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected]. [01:13:38] Speaker B: Sam.