Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Well, I kind of wish you guys had been in on the part of the conversation I was having with dr. Brenda, before we pressed record, but you'll never know that was fun just for us, but I am so incredibly blessed to be sitting across my computer screen this morning from dr. Brenda Salter McNeil. Hi, dr. Brenda.
Speaker 1 00:01:01 Good. Hello. It's just an honor to be with you. You're right. We've had already had a good time.
Speaker 0 00:01:06 Thank you so much for coming on. And I'm going to let Brenda introduce herself in a minute, but I do want to start off by saying that we are going to talk about her most recent book, becoming brave, finding the courage to pursue racial justice now, and as I read that subtitle again today, I am just struck by the, now at the end of that phrase, because we're recording this in November. We have a, um, contentious election still that's happening. And, and this is the time. This is the time we are finding the courage to pursue racial justice now. So dr. Brenda, would you introduce yourself to us and then, and then let's get going and talking about that now.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be with you. Um, I am a professor at Seattle Pacific university. I am, um, a pastor at quest church, uh, here in Seattle, Washington. Um, I also have the honor of being a speaker consultant and an author around the work of racial reconciliation, social justice, um, gender equality, just biblical reconciliation is how I think I would like to frame it because it's not just racial, biblical reconciliation is looking for, um, an environment where all creation reaches its full God-given potential. And so I am an advocate for the kingdom of God and that work has been summed up for us in the word reconciliation. So I've been doing it for over 30 some years now. Um, I've gotten stronger in my voice, which is why the title of this book is called becoming brave.
Speaker 1 00:02:54 I've never been shy. I've never been a lack of, of direct or prophetic, but I will say that the older I get the more experience and a life that I have lived, I do have, I do sincerely believe and I've come to the conclusion that the truth makes us free and that sugarcoating the truth does no one a favor. So those are the academic things I went to fuller seminary grew up in New Jersey, went to Rutgers as an undergrad. That's where I became a Christian, but now I've saved the best for last. I am married to Jay Derek McNeil. He is a pro. He is an academic as well. And uh, well, he's really the academic I teach because I love college students. He's the kind of guy who does the whole academic world. He's the president of a graduate school here in Seattle and we have two fantastic, lovely, wonderful woke human beings who are my two children. Um, my son is 30. My daughter is 25 and they live in California and I think they are the best things that have ever happened to me showed up Jesus
Speaker 0 00:04:00 Christ. Oh, I love that so much. Uh, I just, that just warms my heart because we were talking a little bit about the people who, um, might tune in to this broadcast. And when I just listed the age range, you said those are my people. You're. I mean, they're, they're the, they're your kids, your students. And, and that's actually, one of the places I wanted to touch on today is, is you talk in the book about being a teacher and, and, and what that actually means. So you're, you are a professor and that is, that's totally a thing, but this act of teaching, I hope that we can kind of thread that. Um, maybe throughout the episode a little bit today throughout our conversation, because I just think that that's so powerful. And I think that all of us, even if, even if that's not our professional or our gifting, we have some of that in us. And, and that's a powerful thing that we can do is to teach other people what we've learned at least so far. So I'm hoping we can, we can thread that through, but first, can you tell us where, because this isn't, this, isn't your first book, this isn't your first rodeo. You've been doing this for three decades over. You said, so what, where did this book come from? Cause I just think that's a fascinating story.
Speaker 1 00:05:16 Yeah, well, and you fill any of the blanks for me, but basically I've been preaching the book of Esther for quite some time. And um, I thought that this book was going to be about leadership development. We've already talked about teaching. We've talked about my passion about emerging leaders. I saw Esther as an emerging leader, loved the fact that she was a woman that she was young and that most people would not have seen her as someone whose life had the potential to turn around social and political systems. So I thought she was a great prototype for a young emerging generation to hear a narrative, a biblical narrative of a leader who didn't seek out leadership, but found herself in a position to be able to influence the world around her. And I was happy with that little theme, how ever the one thing about writing and this book was the, it was, I thought it was going to be the easiest because I've been preaching about Esther for so long ended up being the hardest.
Speaker 1 00:06:13 The literal heart is the title was an undetermined. It was not becoming brave. I thought it had something to do with leadership, but I'm here to tell you and everyone who's listening really to give yourself over to the will of God into the creative process is to not just seek to get your book, your name on the book cover. That's not what writing is about. Writing is giving yourself over to the greater good and allowing the book to write you more than you write the book. And that's what happened to me. I found myself in the middle of a social, cultural, political climate, where we had elected a president who by Christians who affirmed what was really a very divisive, um, alienating, um, misogynistic, um, uh, anti-immigrant anti people of disabilities, everything anti reconciliation and the church felt that that was okay. So for anybody who thinks it was political for me, it was not, or partisan. It was not, it was really how do we continue to condone this type of behavior? And all of a sudden I became Esther. I saw myself in a social, cultural, political climate that was calling people to be prophetic, even though it scared us to death. That's where this book came from.
Speaker 0 00:07:38 I love it. I mean, I kind of want to holler right now, but I'm going to control myself for a minute, but that's, that's where this book came from. And, and I have said this before. I have had the incredible opportunity to interview multiple authors this year in 2020, where I'm going, how in the actual world did this happen? That your book, which was, you know, in its infancy way back when, which was written two years ago, which was on the publisher's desk, who knows when, which was edited way back then comes out now, right? I mean, some of your friends and colleagues, um, I've, I've had the opportunity to speak with them. David Swanson and Daniel Hill, or a couple of those guys. Um, Ashley Island is another one that I'm thinking of right now, who is just like, this is insane that all of these voices and stories and encouragement and all of these lessons in boldness and truth are coming to us right now. But they weren't birthed right now.
Speaker 1 00:08:43 Yeah. That sounds exactly right.
Speaker 0 00:08:45 Much. We need them right now. Tell us how much we need your book and these lessons that you learned writing it. How much do we need right now where we sit in 2020? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:08:58 Love the, the, the clarity you have about what's happened because we don't orchestrate this. I didn't make this happen. I have felt guilty for three years because I've been writing it for five. You know, I thought it should have been done a long time ago. And so the now is God, that's this concept of Kairos time. That's this notion right? That, um, that, that there is a time that's not chronological. It's not us. It's not us looking at our watches or determining on our cell phones. What time is it? It's this Kairos moment where we hear in scripture, when Jesus says my time hasn't come yet, why are you calling me forward to do this thing right at the wedding feast of Cana Galilee. He said to his mother, why are you talking to me? It's my time is not yet come. Kairos. Time is the right time.
Speaker 1 00:09:50 The set time, the opportune time, the decisive time, God ordain time. And that requires two things. I think discernment, to be able to recognize it when you're in it. And I think it also takes humility to trust God and to, to do something that you sense you're supposed to do not knowing when it will actually be, be, uh, realized, but you're trusting. God is pushing me to write this. God is pushing me to be more honest. God is pushing me to be more brave. There could not have been any way that I would have known that this particular book with this particular message would come out at such a time as this that's, that's part of the courageous trusting. God is not an easy thing to do. Being obedient to God is not an easy thing to do, but God is in control of Kairos. And when something is needed in the earth, God will birth that thing. If we dare to trust God enough to do what God calls us to do, Oh, you got me preaching.
Speaker 0 00:10:56 No, you're not stopping no way. You're not getting off that easy. I mean, I know I'm just like, I don't even know how to follow this up right now. Another one drew Hart. He was another who, who dropped a book this year. And, and he talks about the same, the same concept in his, in his book too. Part of your story is that while you have been preaching this for so long, another author called you out. And I mean, it, that, I think, I think that right there, discernment plus humility, you, you don't, you, some people can hear that and just dismiss it. You don't know me, you don't know my ministry, it blah, blah, blah. And you took what this author said and really, really took it to heart and asked the Lord about it. Can you, can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1 00:11:56 Oh yeah. Her name is dr. Jennifer Harvey. She's an ethicist. She's brilliant. Um, she's written a book called dear white Christians. And I was reading that book on an airplane, on a flight to someplace to do what I do. And, um, she was basically comparing two different paradigms, a reconciliation paradigm versus a reparations paradigm. And she was really saying that the energy, the power, the, the, the life changing, social changing power of the reconciliation message wasn't wasn't there. It was something of it was missing. So she talked about the fact in this book, and I agree with every word. In fact, she's a doors endorsed this book becoming brave. We are good friends now. And I'm so glad she told the truth because I said earlier, and I'll say it again. The truth will make you free. So people who keep arguing and, you know, making excuses for behavior, I want to say, stop it, just stop it. Be human enough and be humble enough to know that we all see through a glass dimly. We all need to keep growing. And as a result, when somebody speaks the truth to you, listen to the truth, let that truth transform you. And that's what happened for me. All she said was that most of the people who preach about reconciliation, and then she named a litany of people who I know, right. And I thought, Oh, I know him. Oh, I know her. Oh, he's my friend.
Speaker 1 00:13:26 And then I had this little teeny feeling that as she was going to be talking about these people that might just be in the list. So when I flipped the page, she said my name. And I was like, Oh, and all she really did was tell the truth. And here was the truth that the reconciliation message that we were preaching, uh, seem to always focus on that quote that the 11 to 12 o'clock hour in the United States is the most segregated hour on Sunday mornings, the 11 to 12 o'clock hour on Sunday morning in the United States. It's the most segregated hour in our country. And that's just true. She's talking about church, Martin Luther King said it. We say it. We can all quote it. We don't have to look it up anymore. We say it all the time. But listen, at the interesting nuance in that, the interesting nuance seems to suggest that if we were no longer, uh, segregated on Sunday mornings, we would be reconciled.
Speaker 0 00:14:28 And so
Speaker 1 00:14:29 What we had was a lot of white churches, a man that started seeking out more diversity and we had, now we had a Latino worship director, uh, you know, uh, somewhat African-American person doing something else, a gospel choir, all that kind of stuff. And I don't mean to make light of it. It was a genuine attempt to move towards something else, but we were starting to conflate diversity with reconciliation. And that was the problem. And that's why young people were saying, no justice, no peace. If you keep talking about how we're going to all get along, it sounds like that kumbaya song, and we are getting killed. People are dying out here. Children are being taken away from their parents at the border. And this kind of you, you can eat with chopsticks and you sing a song in Spanish that has nothing to do with the injustice that's happening in the streets, which is why young people wanted to throw away reconciliation and replace it with reparations. That was a helpful critique. And we sh I sh I didn't hear that as anything against me at all. In fact, we've talked about it a lot, Jennifer and I, and she said she wasn't even meaning to do that to me. She, she didn't think it was a critique. She was just comparing two models, but God used her truth to help me see something that I hadn't understood at the level that I now do. And it made me shift my message. And I'm grateful for her.
Speaker 0 00:16:03 Let's talk about the shift a little bit, please, dr. Brenda, because I want to talk about whiteness and I want to talk about white dominant culture. And we want to talk about what you to talk about, how your, um, how your messaging maybe is a good word for it. I'm not sure, um, changed in that shift, right? Because, um, I had read, in fact, I will, I'll just throw it out there and say it, my husband, who, um, tends to be a little bit bolder than I am in some of his speech, I would, you know, sometimes Fred and, Oh my goodness, I've got this. And he, he looked at me one day and he said, Lex, you cannot be afraid about offending white people. You just, you're just going to have to say it. Right. And so I'm not going to go as far as to say that maybe you were afraid of offending white people, but can you talk about that change in your rhetoric and in your messaging and how that critique affected how you do ministry in this space of racial reconciliation.
Speaker 1 00:17:12 Absolutely. Thank you for asking. So, as I said earlier, I've never been shy. I've never lacked boldness. Um, I've never held back and I've always been prophetic. So some people like, well, what changed? Right? Here's what I know about preaching. We don't use the gift of preaching or the pulpit to push our own agendas on people, right? So I'm always constantly cognizant of that. And some people, particularly white dominant culture feared that a black woman who preached about reconciliation had a hidden agenda, some hobby horse that I was coming to kind beat people down around, right. That I had some liberal left, something that I was trying to bring in right through the back door. And, um, and maybe we can talk about that in a minute. And people would nervous that reconciliation was sort of like a smoke screen for all this other liberal stuff that I, as a black woman may have wanted to impose on people. So they were nervous about where, what, what was I, what was I really trying to do? Well, let me tell you what I have really been trying to do for all.
Speaker 1 00:18:28 It's preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. That includes people from every tribe, every nation, every language group, and every class culture that the, the lion is going to lay down with the lamb, that creation will be redeemed. And we will study war no more. I, that I am trying. I am, I love God period. And I have always really, and that's not a brag. I just, I grew up in the Pentecostal church and I grew up around people who literally loved God. And they gave their whole 100% to God. And I just have been formed in that tradition. So I don't have a hidden motive. I'm not trying to get people to think, like I think, but I am trying to get them to understand what the kingdom of God calls us to. So what I did that's different than, than now was I made the mistake, a man I'll own this of, of, of, of confusing political with partisan.
Speaker 1 00:19:35 So I wouldn't bring up political issues or things that I thought were political issues like abortion. I wouldn't come up. I wouldn't throw that out there. Cause you know, that's going to be, you know, the bomb and that's going to be the one that blows things up and people are going to immediately takes. I knew it. I knew. Yeah, she was, you know, so I just didn't bring it up. I just, it wasn't like I was shy. I preached hard. Anybody who knows cause so people, when they read becoming brave, many people who've known me for years. They thought, when weren't you, when, when words you brave, what, you know, we don't know anything thing, but uh, but a woman who has come hard and been prophetic your entire ministry there. Right. But I did not want to wound people or attempt to somehow appear like I was breaking in just to, to, to force them and offend them.
Speaker 1 00:20:34 So I wanted to prove that I was biblical, that I had no hidden motive. And I was trying to demonstrate particularly to white evangelicals, who said, if you are not angry, see we could hear people who are not angry. If you, you know, if you don't kind of bring up these divisive issues like homosexuality, because see those things divide the church. And if you just didn't say those kinds of things, so, and if you, you know, it was almost like if you do it this way, but not that way. And I'm a speaker, I know what it is to come into an audience, read that environment and, and present the truth of what you're saying in a way that's not offensive. But what I understand now is that there are constant li this, this kinda, now I want to say it more directly. Here we go.
Speaker 1 00:21:27 Now I know. And I'm gonna tell you a story to tell you the truth. A white man said to me after I started being more clear about immigration, about sexuality, about, uh pro-life. Cause if you really pro-life, you should care about kids who drinking, uh, led poison water and in Michigan and kids being taken from their parents. And if you're not that you're just anti-abortion so shut up, shut up, shut up about being pro-life because pro-life would mean that you would care about kids and, and, and babies who can't be found and reunited with their parents. So I now say that kind of stuff. And now that I do a white man said to me, bless his heart, bless his heart on my Facebook page. He said, and I quote, we liked you better when you just quoted Bible verses now to know me as no, I'd never just quoted Bible verses.
Speaker 1 00:22:19 But what he's basically saying was we liked you better when you did your work of reconciliation on our terms. And now my new declaration is that that has gotten us nowhere. In fact, that has gotten us to, to tolerate a political agenda that has been so hostile, soul inhumane. So divisive, uh, so much hypocrisy. I can't even imagine how many Christians have made that. Okay. And so that's what I refuse to do anymore. I will say it. And if he doesn't like it, God bless him. I blocked him from my page and I blocked anybody else.
Speaker 0 00:23:08 I was going to say, I'm Southern. And I had a Southern grandma. So I know what bless your heart means. <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:23:16 Boy, I don't have any energy to even debate with you because if I don't call a thing, a thing, it makes you believe that you're actually pursuing reconciliation when you're not.
Speaker 0 00:23:30 Can, can you unpack that? I don't even, I don't even know where I don't even know where I want to go with that, but can you unpack that, that, that statement of it makes you makes the dominant culture? I'll just say like at broadly, the dominant feel like you're pursuing reconciliation when you're not, I'm going to say in the white church and the white evangelical church, it makes you feel, it makes them feel like you're pursuing reconciliation when you're not take, take us there.
Speaker 1 00:24:00 Exactly. It's, it's reducing reconciliation to relational. Um, diversity. It, it, it reduces reconciliation to making friends to try to understand under other people, um, it's this kind of multi-ethnic vision. So does reconciliation include a multi-cultural multi-ethnic vision? Yes. But is it the end of reconciliation to have multicultural gatherings? No, because I can't say that I love people and not care about the policies that impact those people. And so I can't say I love Latino people and I do. I went to Costa Rica, I can speak Spanish and I'm going to be fluent someday in CA law and heaven. One day, I'm going to really, it's going to be beautiful, but Lord knows it's my heart's desire. If I grew up in a Latino and African-American community, it's my heart's desire, uh, to be fluent. And so anybody who knows me knows I care about that. I was coming back from Costa Rica and I seen the book, the story.
Speaker 1 00:25:05 And, um, I was in the customs line and I looked around and I saw diversity in the residents line, going back into the country and the non-residents line. I mean, it was diversity on both sides and miss racial, cultural, social reconciliation, Brenda Salter McNeil, thought to myself, wow, we already have enough diversity. And instantly the Holy spirit kind of checked me. I could feel it like, Oh, watch that kind of scarcity thinking we already have enough diversity because as soon as you start thinking like that, that's the kind of stuff that builds walls to say, we've got to keep our stuff in it. Cause we we've already got enough and we can't take anymore. That's the kind of stuff that justifies the kinds of rhetoric and immigration policies that separate kids from their parents. God said, be careful of that kind of scarcity thinking. And then as I stood in the line, literally I felt the Holy spirit asking me questions.
Speaker 1 00:26:10 Do you believe that I want for other people what I want for you? And, and I'm not in this little line having a Holy ghost moment. And I'm like, yes, yes, God, I do. You know? Um, and, and, and the, the questions kept coming in and that at the end of these three questions, you know, do you believe I have enough? Yes. I, I do believe you have enough for everybody. And then God said, you can't say you love people and not care about the policies that affect those people. And ever since then, I, I, after that, I was invited to come to Washington DC. And I didn't think I was going to say yes, because it was to advocate Congress, to lobby Congress for immigration reform. And I wasn't like well-versed in immigration policies, but I showed up no bragging on my part. I showed up simply because in that customs line, God said to me, you got to care about justice.
Speaker 1 00:27:11 You got to care about social policies. You got to put your neck on the line around things that are impacting people's lives. So see, that's the difference. That's the change. Now I know that you have to talk about immigration. You have to talk about mass incarceration. You have to talk about black lives matter and police reform. You have to, it's a non-negotiable to talk about reconciliation and, and how it impacts people's lives. And that's not being social or political. That's being that's that's reconciliation. That's what God calls us to do. That's why the Bible talks so much about the widows and the orphans and the poor. It's not some new thing. It's God's thing. And we got to say that
Speaker 0 00:27:58 It's God's it's God's thing. And I was listening to, um, and reading some more reading, some articles and even do, you know, just some tweets prior to this election that we're, I mean, we're, we're still kind of in the middle of, even the voting is finished at a winner of the presidential election has been declared. And, um, and, and one of the things that resonated with me so much was this, this prompting specifically to, to Christians inside of the dominant culture, this prompting to go find the most marginalized person, you know, and ask them, ask them who they're voting for, ask them how they feel about the candidates, have a conversation with them, which I think is great advice. But the stats and anecdotes show us that many of the Christians inside of dominant white dominant culture don't know anyone on the margins. They don't know anyone well enough who might be marginalized in our country to have those conversations with maybe there is a person of color here who is in their Bible study, or maybe there is someone who they see on occasion in some sort of, um, work environment or something like that.
Speaker 0 00:29:25 But by and large, I almost think it's comical and there's no way to find this out, but it's, it's about the same percentage, about 80% of voting white evangelicals voted for the president last time, voted for him again. And about the same percentage of white people, don't have a single person of color in their immediate sphere of, of friendship or influence. And there's no way to know, is that the same 80%? But it feels important to me because it keeps bringing me back to the question that was asked of Jesus, who is my neighbor. Right. And the question wasn't asked, we think right in this like, Oh, I'm just kind of curious what you might say. It was like, give me an out, right? Give me an out, because I want to be able to argue with you about who I'm responsible for loving and who I'm not responsible for loving.
Speaker 0 00:30:21 So I feel the same. I feel the same environment right now, honestly, in this, in this current culture in America, in this current, I hate to say it out loud, but in this current culture in Christian America, which is what I mean, are they really my neighbor? Are they really my neighbor? If they're here undocumented, is that really? Is that, is that person really? My neighbor is this person, really? My neighbor. If, if he has a police record, is he really my neighbor? I mean, you could go on and on and on answer. I believe Jesus tells us resoundingly is yes. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1 00:30:59 I completely agree. I do. I think you're right onto something. And I love that verse being used this way. It's a great question for us to ask ourselves right now.
Speaker 0 00:31:07 Right. I just, I don't, I don't know. Let's talk about, Oh, go ahead, Brennan. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:31:13 I would love to jump in on what you're saying about like talk to the marginalized and ask and that's, that's helpful because, um, sometimes when I get pushed back on social media, I wish, and usually I'm going to be honest. It's usually white and as men, middle age, and then white women. Right. And I feel like, do you notice that the only people who are saying what you're saying are white people who are middle age and maybe more than you should talk to other people of color, you should talk amongst yourselves. I think, I think that my I, and this is a big change. I've changed my voice because I think I've gotten all the, the hostile energy out. Now. I'm just going to tell you, I am Lilly, literally sick and tired of trying to be white people to change. I don't have any more energy to go around the block.
Speaker 1 00:32:00 A hundred million more times with white folks. Like, I feel like, you know what? There's a world to save. Do you notice how black women voted this, this election? We basically said, you guys, you, you go ahead and you do whatever you do. We're going to save our communities. We're going to save our children. We are going to have change. We are going to have a new way forward and we're not waiting for you to get it. We're not begging you to get it. And if you're not careful, and I mean, this, you're going to lose a generation of white, young people, your grandchildren and your children are leaving the church in droves because see your hypocrisy, they see your complicity, they see your dishonesty and they don't want to be around your God. And so if you want to keep playing this game, you're going to lose your children.
Speaker 1 00:32:54 And I'm more concerned about you. Now, you don't ask me another question about how I voted. I know what I'm voting for. I'm voting for my life and you should start voting for your life because generations from now, you're going to look back and you're going to regret your hypocrisy within justice, because when you dehumanize somebody else, you ultimately de-humanized yourself. Yes. And I mean that I'm sincerely concerned that white Christians need to wake up or they're going to lose their church and they're going to lose their credibility to witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:33:36 I am. Um, I'm terrified of that. I, um, I followed the ad campaign and this morning they, you know, they're constantly though tweeting and, and, and putting in their messaging. What about our Christian witness? Right? I've seen authors, you know, come out and say, you know, pledging to, to pray for president elect Biden, just like they've prayed for every other president in their lifetime and their ministries and getting hate mail because of it. Where is our Christian witness in that? Right? Where, where is our Christian witness in that? And, um, and I, I agree with you. I think you're right. It's been a, it's been a difficult, and I will just say, and, and who knows, we may, we may cut this out later. I don't know if this is going to be part of the conversation, but I feel like it's a, it's a line.
Speaker 0 00:34:38 That is, it is a difficult line to walk. So I was having a conversation with one of my black girlfriends in may, probably got a bit kind of at the start of, of a lot of the protesting and things like this. And I told her, I naively believed kind of, we, we, you touched on earlier that this, that this was what was going to be at P we have friendships like ours. We can talk about stuff like this. We can do this. You know, I've got she's, she's not a parent yet. But one of my other friends who is an African immigrant is, and she tells me all the time with my, with my son, just, you know, she's like, whatever you need, we're here for you. You know? And we're, we're a team, we're a village, you know, trying to raise our kids and, and do this in Jesus as, as best we know how, but I was, I was talking with this, this girlfriend of mine over the summer.
Speaker 0 00:35:25 And, and I'm just saying, I, I don't even know what to do. I was, I was grieving. I was grieving that our friendships weren't enough that I hadn't even as a social person with a graduate degree in social justice, hadn't advocated enough for policy change and things like that. And, and I'm just kind of just kind of at a loss and telling her, I don't know what to do. And we were on the phone course, cause it was COVID. And, and, and she said to me, listen to me, there are people in the church. Why people specifically, who are only going to hear this message from someone who looks like you now you're nodding your head and everyone can't see it. I didn't want to believe her, right? Because I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We have all of these amazing voices and resources of that. People of color have provided for us to tell us about their lived experience, to tell us what the gospel says about this, to tell us what biblical justice is. And she said, I'm trying to tell you, this is her lived experience talking. She said, there are people who are only going to hear this from someone who looks like you.
Speaker 0 00:36:36 Can I tell you that that was devastating. On one side of me was devastating. And on the other side, I could feel that weight of responsibility come down on me and to say, I don't have a lived experience to tell anyone about is this even my place to have this conversation, but my friend says you have to. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:37:03 Yeah. I totally agree. And that now means that's what we mean when we say, do your work, do the work. And the work is, and now we're back to the title of the book. You see, this is why we've got to become brave because you will catch hell when you do it. And people will try to pick apart your lived experience. And people will try to determine whether or not you've got the credibility, you know, to say what it is you say, and then you will be accused of having drunk, you know, drunk and drink the, um, uh, socialist social. What is it? Socialist Kool-Aid. And you're gonna, you know, you're not going to be called a child of God. People who loved you are going to question you people, you know, all of that kind of stuff and that. And so for the people listening to this podcast, it will take bravery to stand for the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1 00:37:54 And that's not new. It always has. It always has that. We talked prior to our, our, our, um, taping. And we talked about that scripture when it broke my heart in 2016, I was on the floor crying about not who will not, who will not, not Democrat versus Republican. Listen, I've been on the planet a long time and I've had many, a Republican president. So it wasn't about the party. It was about the message that Christians, that, that an overwhelming number of this people in this country said, yeah, somebody who grabs women and has over 20 lawsuits against them. Yeah. Oh, that's just fine. A person who lies incessantly. Oh yeah, no. We're with that, you know, a person who's been married, what, I mean public affairs married, what, three times, five different kids from three different women, public affairs come on. Really? We wouldn't let that person be a Sunday school teacher.
Speaker 1 00:38:56 And we made that person, the president and I, so I was devastated, literally devastated. And to be real real about it, I'm devastated that nearly 70 million people still think that's okay, please talk about it. I am shocked and I'm hurt because now we can't say we didn't know. And so to keep trying to make that God and somehow justify that really makes me both angry. And, um, I, I don't even know the word disillusioned with white, the white church, because you are lying and you keep trying to make me believe that it's not raining when I'm, I am soaking wet. So shut up. I can't, I just can't hear another word of it. It's just not true. So I'd be better off. If somebody just told me the truth, we want to stay in power. We believe this country belongs to us. And so just know that we believe that God wants us to be in power and we will hold our nose and we will justify injustice so that we can keep it.
Speaker 1 00:39:55 Okay. I hear that. At least, at least we're both saying the same thing. We see the same thing and we're in the same reality. But back to the courage part for all of us who are listening to this podcast, the courage is that it is always been a courageous thing to pursue the kingdom of God. And it will always be an act of courage to take the, the road less traveled because a lot of people will choose the easier way and get, go with the flow, to have this kind of courageous conversation, to say this kind of truth. We're going to get, we're going to get talked about for this. Somebody is going to push back. Somebody will unfriend us, stop listening to your podcast. And I'm just okay with that at this point, whatever happens. I'm trying to please, God, period, I'm trying to be, do what I'm supposed to do with this life, but this period of time.
Speaker 1 00:40:45 But for those of you listening, I want you to hear this verse. The Bible says this, and I heard it the first time in a new way. After the 2016 election, when I was devastated that we had voted for a person who I previously described as a person. I just didn't think we'd condone. The Bible says from the days of John the Baptist, until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence. And they that take it, take it by force. Meaning they, that pursue the kingdom who charge the Gates of the kingdom of God. We are people who are going to have to become brave.
Speaker 0 00:41:27 Thank you. I'm hoping there's one last place you can take before we end. And that is there is, there is bravery and there is power in the spiritual, like you were just talking about. And there is political power run, a muck like we were just talking about and I was encouraged and discouraged at the same time in your book, several times when you mentioned, we may do all this work and not see what we want to see Theon. Right? But never once did you say, but that's okay. Quit fighting. Now. I didn't hear that from me. I may or may not have been waiting you to say that, but you didn't say it. You said multiple times, we were called to this. But we, him, even though we may not see it, we have to keep telling the truth. We have to keep fighting for justice. We have to keep being reconciled. Why does that matter? Tell us who are feeling like we want to do something, which is who your book is written to tell us who are looking like, we want to do something. Why does it matter that we do it? Even if we don't see the outcome we want to see.
Speaker 1 00:43:01 Yeah. I think that what we're pursuing is the kingdom of God. So to be real honest, the kingdom of God, we are we're, we're in this place between the now and the not yet. The kingdom of God is here. Jesus, the Emmanuelle is with us. And the fullness of the, of the Shalom of God is not yet realized. And we are in that crummy place of that liminal space of being in the middle. And that's why the just walked by faith. Um, and that faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. And so we are people of faith. We do this, not because we have the outcome or see all the results we want to see. Basically we, we decide to live a life that matters. We decide to live a life that's obedient to God and we leave the results up to God.
Speaker 1 00:43:57 And so the thing that gives me a sense of pleasure is that if God says to me, did you vote for justice? Did you vote for those who are marginalized? Did your love for Latino people make you vote in and stand up in a way that you are actively helping to find those children who are still not United with their parents? Yes. If we can answer. Yes. Did you do your part? If we can say yes to that, that's when we get well done, my good and faithful servant. And that's exactly why Martin Luther King jr said, I may not get there with you, but I am confident that we, as a people will get to the promised land because mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. And I'm here to tell you, but God gives us hope and vision on the inside.
Speaker 1 00:44:51 So it's not like I'm just slugging it out. And I'm sad every day. No, I'm quite happy. And I like what I get to do. And I love being on the right side of things with God. I love being on your podcast. And I love the people I get to meet. I love young people rising up. I love to see, you know, people protesting for their love, right? To be alive. I love to see, you know, revival come and I'm here to tell your audience that revivals around the world has always been led by young adults, usually college age people who have enough gumption to want to see change and to push for it. So keep on pushing. Amen. Just keep on pushing. And, and we jumped. We just went around them all. We, we jumped by faith, but let me say this too. We jumped by faith, but we jumped together. Anybody who thinks that you are, I can do this alone is misguided. We have to do this as a, as a, as a community. We have to find other people who want to see change and we lock arms with them and we combine our power with them, right? So that we are not easily, uh, uh, broken and, and disillusioned and defeated. Because if we try to be the lone ranger, we cannot sustain this work. Reconciliation can not be done in isolation. It must be done in community. So find your tribe.
Speaker 0 00:46:27 Thank you so much, dr. Brenda, what would you leave us with? As we, as we wrap up that you're like, ah, I wish she would ask that question or I wish I would have had the opportunity to talk about that. Do you have any thing left in you that you feel like you need or want to say?
Speaker 1 00:46:43 Not really. This has been wonderful. Thank you for having this podcast. Thank you for having courageous conversations. Um, I, I am. You know what, and I have not said this on any other podcasts. I don't know why. I just want to say, I really do love you. I love you. I love you. Those of us who are listening to these kinds of conversations, trying in our own way to do something, to make the world a better place. I'm motivated by love. I don't know. I feel it so much, but even right now, I just feel like I love, I love people. I love God. And I love those around us was trying to see the kingdom of God. So y'all just know that I'm over here cheering for you and I'm over here. Um, you know, fan in the flames, you, and I'm trying literally to pave the way to make it a little easier for you. And if I do that, then I've done my job and I'll give thanks to God. Amen.
Speaker 0 00:47:39 Thank you for your work. I love you too, dr. Brenda, thank you so much for being with us. The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show, notes, music, and podcast production by Seth. <inaudible> be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
