Episode 068 - Scott Sauls

Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis resetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the house sometimes alludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody. I am so thrilled to be sitting across zoom today from Scott SOLs author, pastor speaker encourager in this season. Really? Hey Scott. Hey, it's good to be with you, Alexis. Thank you so much. I told him right before we started recording that I literally just finished his brand new book. And by the time this airs, it won't be brand new in a Mer anymore. Speaker 0 00:01:07 It'll still be a baby, I guess, about six months old, but, um, it's called a gentle answer, our secret weapon in an age of us against them. And Scott, I want to say we're recording this in, at the very, very end of October. So less than a week before the election and some of my girlfriends and I have a little group texts going there's everything from, you know, yesterday, someone sent out a, uh, an encouraging political, uh, article than sometimes we have recipes or someone will send a devotional for parenting. And I, as soon as I finished this book, snapped a picture of the cover and sent it and said, Oh, by the way, this is golden. I just finished it. Grab a copy of this book, but I want to ask you kind of to start off, where did this come from? Because it feels so timely right now, but I'm like, I know you didn't, you didn't sit down in February when the virus hit and thought, Oh, I think I'll write something. Or in may when the process started and said, you know, what things feel a little contentious right now? I think I'll really something right before the summer before the crazy election time. So where did this come from? Speaker 1 00:02:22 Yeah, so, uh, great question. A couple of places really. I mean, this has been the theme of, of a gentle answer in a climate of hostility and polarization has been a real theme that we've emphasized in our ministry at the church that I lead in Nashville, Christ Presbytarian church. Uh, and also in my writing, um, uh, I started writing books. It was sort of, uh, sort of an accidental author and, uh, you know, my first book, I got five out now, which is kind of crazy to imagine, but my first one is a book called Jesus outside the lines, which is, um, in many ways, uh, an unintentional companion to this newest book, a general answer, a general answer is more about, um, you know, cultivating gentleness in our hearts in response to what's going on in the culture around us. And especially in response to how Christ, you know, the one who described himself as, as the one who is gentle and humble in heart, uh, has treated us and has responded to our, you know, hostility, rebellion, ambivalence difference to him with, with gentleness and kindness. Speaker 1 00:03:38 And, and, um, and so, uh, so the two triggers, I guess, for a gentle answer were, or three triggers really. Uh, one is, this is a theme that I've been just really has just been a special focus for me personally, uh, over the last almost decade. And, uh, uh, and then also the other two, which is really where my head space was a couple of years ago when we conceived the project, it was number one, the 2016 election year was kind of horrible and contentious. And, you know, we were thinking, well, this book, uh, will release sometime in 2020, which will be the next round. And what if we put something out there that, that might help move the needle in a direction of more kindness. And the third trigger was, uh, the, uh, the renewed popularity of mr. Rogers, which was about two or three years ago. Speaker 1 00:04:37 I grew up loving mr. Rogers. He's the friend that I never met. Uh, but, um, you know, we were at a, a cute conference this conference I was speaking at and participating in. And, uh, and one of the special evening events that they had was, was a premiere of the new documentary on Mr. Rogers. And we were just my wife, Patty, and I were just taken by that. And then, you know, the, the Hollywood film starring Tom Hanks was released and it was wonderful. And, and, and so there's just sort of this renewed love and affection for not just Mr. Rogers, but for everything that he represents, especially in this climate. And I, I think that, that, that the popularity of both of those films is really an indicator of where our culture is right now. I think there's a, I personally think there's a silent majority that, that craves kindness and gentleness, uh, infinitely more than hostility and polarization, but I, I think so many people just feel stuck and don't know how to get out of the polarization. And so, um, a general answer, I kind of wrote the book, hoping it could be a bit of a guide, you know, to direct us toward a more healthy way of being and way of thinking and living and way of responding to the climate around us. I think it's a great opportunity now, especially for Christians to be counterculture, uh, not in a, not in a negative demeaning way, but in a positive life-giving way by responding with fruit of the spirit, be attitudes, posture, that sort of thing. Speaker 0 00:06:12 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's difficult because when you S when you, when you say that the term silent majority it's like gentleness is not loud, right? Like kindness doesn't get attention. Um, when I was prepping for our time together today, um, one of your, I think you maybe have reposted an article that you wrote a couple of years ago with, um, referring to the woman who's tweeted something that ruined, um, ruined her career. And, but she had apologized before it, and you mentioned in that, like, but apologies, don't make the news, right? Like these, these types of responses, um, and even in even the initiation of, of kindness and gentleness isn't loud and it isn't flamboyant, and it isn't, it isn't attention grabbing. Right. Um, but I say that, and I say, it's not attention grabbing, unless you're the one who needs the gentleness. Speaker 1 00:07:15 That's right. Boy, what a great insight Alexis, when you're the one who needs it, uh, it really does grab you, um, you know, one of the things that, um, has sparked curiosity in people who, um, you know, I've had conversations about the book with, uh, who haven't actually read the book like you, which is fine. I don't expect everybody to read the book and people got a lot of books, you know, to read, but, but those who haven't read it have been intrigued and a little bit confused by the title of the fifth chapter, uh, which is general people do anger well, uh, and, um, you know, the question, which is a really good question, how, how, how does anger and gentleness go together? Well, um, you know, I talk in the chapter about, you know, the difference between righteous anger and raging anger. Anger is a lot like fire. Speaker 1 00:08:11 Uh, it, it always seeks to destroy something, um, you know, but, but fire destroying bacteria and food is a good thing. A fire destroying, you know, a trash heap, uh, is a good thing, a fire, you know, destroying, um, toxins and poisonous things and, and viruses is, is a really good thing. Uh, but, but fire taking over the coast of, you know, the West coast is not a good thing, right. Uh, so there's a, there's a raging fire, which is like the West coast fires, or, you know, this is us premiere, uh, is, you know, it just came out last night, right? We're all still grieved. Those of us who watch this is us that a house fire killed Jack. Um, so there's a raging fire and there's a righteous fire in the same way. Anger can be a raging, anger and raging anger as the kind of anger that attacks people, righteous anger is the kind of anger that attacks problems, problems like injustice problems, like, uh, illness problems like homelessness and poverty. Speaker 1 00:09:11 Um, so it, you know, the question isn't are you angry? We ought to be angry. If, if we're following Jesus fully, we're going to get angry about some stuff we're going to get angry about anything that attacks or compromises that, which is good. And anything that, that diminishes flourishing we're going to get upset about. You know, CS Lewis once said that Christianity is a fighting religion. Uh, you know, Christians go into the world when they're at their best Christians go into the world and they're awake, uh, at all the problems that are, that are there in the world. And they seek to, to create and build solutions to those problems. Um, you know, King was angry about racial injustice, right? Uh, and yet he didn't attack people. He attacked the problem. And in attacking the problem, instead of people, some of the people who are actually part of the problem were one over to his side to attack the problem of racial inequality with them. Speaker 1 00:10:05 Right. And so, so you see how it works. Um, there's a great scene in the Bible in Luke chapter seven, where Jesus gets, gets infuriated with some Pharisees who are bullying, a prostitute who comes in and, um, you know, basically uses the tools of her trade, her hair, her lips, and her perfume to demonstrate affection to Jesus by washing his feet and anointing his feet, uh, and wiping them with her hair and her tears and the, the self-righteous smug religious people. They scorn her, they looked down on her. They, they, they canceled her, right. They don't even acknowledge her personhood. They, they, they treat her like a thing instead of a person. Uh, you know, they call her a center and, um, that's her identity in their eyes. And Jesus turns to them, you know, to your point, uh, gentleness is grabs our attention. When it, when, when we're the recipients, he gets aggressive with the bullies and essentially says, if you're going to get to her, you got to go through me first. Speaker 1 00:11:07 And if you go through me, you're going to lose. You're not going to get to her through me. And, and, you know, Matt, I, you know, we, we, we so are focused sometimes on passage like that, about look at how Jesus stuck it to those Pharisees. But meanwhile, he's also tenderly protecting and, and, and, um, reminding this woman of her dignity as he is standing up for her and demonstrating her worth that, that he would stand up for her. Is it actually, actually his act of aggression and anger to shut down the bullies, uh, is actually an act of gentleness for her. And, and, and so, you know, the Pharisees and, and, and the woman experienced him in very different ways, uh, in, in that moment. But, um, you know, to your point when we're the recipients, Speaker 0 00:11:54 Um, we really notice, right. I mean, it's, I loved that section of the book because I had never thought when you used that phrase, that she used the tools of retrade, like she used what, what she had, you know, and, and I think like, there's, there are, um, you, you tell a story in the book when you're, when you're talking about, I think it's when you're talking about Nathaniel and it's like, we don't know what Jesus saw, something struck him. We don't know what he saw. And you kind of, you kind of give some, maybe it was this, maybe it was that some kind of some possibilities, what did Jesus see him doing? And years ago, when I was, when I was younger, we were traveling quite a bit and I would see people in the airport, right. Just kind of people watching us. And I would lean over to my husband and I would say, Oh my goodness, this is so beautiful. Speaker 0 00:12:47 The story I made up, the story I made up about this scene, or the story I made up about this person is, is such and such. Right. And I think that we can make up stories in our heads to fit in the narrative that we have, but then remembering that Jesus, Jesus is the only one who really knows that full narrative. You know, when, when I was growing up in church and, and hearing stories about Ray Hab, right, who we see in Hebrews 11 at the end, I couldn't for the life of me, I couldn't bring everything together. She was a prostitute for a living. She was lying about the situation. She was, you know, I couldn't bring all of this together, but kind of that wording the tools of the trade reminded me that Jesus has. Speaker 0 00:13:41 I don't even know how to say it in a way that in a way that will fully describe what I'm trying to communicate, but I feel like it's a reminder that Jesus has an amount of grace and compassion for where we are in the moment. And so words that I got for this a few years ago was if, if, if I could just focus on other people and say to myself, we're all doing the best we can with what we have. And if, and if we really believed that about one another, then I think we'd be in a better position to be angry at the problem, or be angry at the idea, or be angry at the action instead of being attacking of the person, maybe if we came to them and we thought in our heads, this person is doing the best she can with what she has, right? Like, like you said, with dr. King, these people who were part of the problem, maybe they were doing the best they could with what they had, but when they had more and he gave them more through his gentleness and kindness and education and compassion, he was able to give them more than they could respond in a better Speaker 1 00:14:54 That's right. That's right. That's right. Speaker 0 00:14:58 It doesn't always happen that way. Um, and so I'm kind of hoping you'll take us there next. Maybe because you talk a lot about each of us a theme throughout the book, I feel like is each of us are simultaneously sinner and Saint, Speaker 1 00:15:23 We all Speaker 0 00:15:24 Have it in us. We're we all have an inner Jesus. You say at one point, and we all have an inner Judas. Um, and sometimes it's a moment that makes the difference. Sometimes it's a lapse of judgment. Sometimes it's a moment. Can you talk us through that concept and how this, how this idea of gentleness can help us navigate those spheres in ourselves and in the people that we interact with? Speaker 1 00:15:52 So, you know, the book starts, uh, the first three chapters, uh, you know, just trying to drill it in to our hearts. This is, this is Jesus's posture toward us. This is our starting point with the one who would have every right to crush us if he desired to and has chosen instead to redeem us and to restore us and forgive us and, um, and, and, and make us new. And, uh, the way that he describes himself is, uh, as the one who is gentle and humble in heart. And, and the response that that invites in us is to enter into rest. You know, he says, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened. And a lot of times what we're most weary and what we're most burdened with is our own shame and our own guilt and our own regret. Um, and, and, you know, we try to work our own guilt and shame and regret. Speaker 1 00:16:53 I think this is, was the psychology of the Pharisees. We, we, we try to work out our own guilt and shame and regret either through performance, uh, or by deflecting our guilt, shame and regret on other people like the Pharisees did in Luke chapter seven on the prostitute. Like if I can find somebody who looks worse than me and make them the focus, uh, then I, I won't have to deal. That's a way that I can sort of self-medicate my own guilt and my own shame and my own regret. I mean, it's right there at Luke 18 nine when Jesus beaten his chest. Right. Or no. Right. Yeah. Right before he gives the parable of the tax collector, the Pharisee good job, you know, you know, look at 18, you know, Speaker 0 00:17:36 I just looked at it. I just looked at it this week. Speaker 1 00:17:39 Oh, wonderful. So you remember it, you remember how, um, how Luke set up the parable. He says to some who trusted in themselves, that they were righteous and look down on other people with contempt. He was told this parable, and then he gives the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector. And, and, you know, that's, that's the inner, you know, hardworking, that's the, that's the psychology of cancel culture, the psychology of shutdown culture, the S the psychology of, of why, uh, the internet mom would, um, would go on the attack against, you know, the woman that you mentioned, Justin Sako right there, their articles about her out there, she lost her entire career. Um, not because she said something racist, but because something she said was interpreted as racist when actually she was attempting to self-deprecate and she was actually attempting to, to, to, you know, in a, in a, as kind of a, a snarky way to, to, to point out that there is racial inequality in the world, and that she does have privilege because she's a white woman. Speaker 1 00:18:50 Like, that's what she was actually trying to say. Uh, but, but the, the internet mob would not accept her own explanation of her own statement. Uh, and the reason why we, we, we want to create false narratives, why we want to take, you know, words and phrases out of somebody else's, uh, you know, you know, whoever the enemy is, who, whoever the other is, we wanna, we wanna, we wanna cherry pick something. They said, take it entirely out of their context. And by the way, this is exactly what the Pharisees tried to do to Jesus all the time. And he said, pull it entirely out of its context and then construct a completely false, uh, slander narrative, uh, and then go on the, and then gather some groupies and then mob the person, uh, in order to try to destroy them. And it's called character assassination. Speaker 1 00:19:42 And, and the Pharisees had to do that in order to feel better about themselves. Now here's the alternative that the gospel offers enter into Jesus's rest. And part of what it means to enter into Jesus's rest is that you get to, you get to, you get to medicate, uh, your own shame and your own guilt and your own regret, but in a different way, uh, the medicine comes from Jesus. Who's the physician, uh, who says, we're going to get real about your guilt and your shame, and you're going to name it and where you don't name it and where you don't own it, I'm going to help you name it, and I'm going to help you own it. Not because I want to attack you or destroy you, but because I want to mend you, I want to heal you. And, and, and part of the healing, and this is true with our physical bodies, right? Speaker 1 00:20:31 We have to acknowledge the lump under our armpit. We have to acknowledge, you know, the, the, the pain in our foot, uh, or we have to acknowledge the fatigue we have. And if we keep pushing through the, you know, the cancer cells are going to continue to multiply and eventually destroy us. Um, but if you can, you know, the earlier, you know, we can, we can submit our, our own flaws and our own weaknesses and shortcomings to Jesus. Um, you know, the earlier you catch it, right, the, the, the, the quicker, the healing and the better the life. Um, but man, guilt, shame and, and regret are such powerful, powerful forces. And we have to remember that, that there is an enemy who is preaching a counter gospel, uh, to us all the time, uh, and who wants us to deal with our guilt and our shame and our regret by, by hiding, uh, as oppose. Speaker 1 00:21:25 And the way we hide is by, is by deflecting, uh, you know, you know, by criticizing other people and so on, as opposed to bring it into the light, which is what Jesus offers. I mean, how liberated would we be if we felt like we really could be exposed and not rejected, that, that we really could be completely known and completely loved at the same time. And, and that's what Jesus offers. Uh, the problem is that, um, our, our, our pride, uh, and, and, and ironically our self-loathing, uh, which, which we want to hang on to, for some twisted reason, um, gets in the way of us simply receiving open-handed what Jesus has to offer in himself. So I don't know if that answers your question. I'm sorry. I don't even remember the question you asked, but we got to run to Christ. We got to run to Christ. Like you can't get to gentleness. You can't get to any of the fruit of the spirit, but by, by going around Christ, like there's no bypass road around Jesus to get to the virtues of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. The only way to become like Jesus in those things is to stop exerting your effort, to be like Jesus, in those things. And instead, invest your effort in being with Jesus. Speaker 1 00:22:48 Stop, exerting yourself to try to be good, because you don't have it in you. None of us has it in us to, to be, you know, fruit of the spirit. People love joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. We don't have what it takes to become those things, uh, by, by going around Jesus, uh, to get to them, right. Just like the Pharisees, couldn't get to the prostitute without going through Jesus. Uh, we can't get to virtue without going to Jesus. We can't get to the fruit of the spirit without going through Jesus. So, so invest your energy in knowing Christ, knowing who you are in Christ, uh, in being with Christ. And then you become like Christ, right? Um, you know, Christ rubs off, right? He rubs off, um, you know what let's say, this like the fruit of the spirits, like a virus, um, it's like, you know, medical talk about communicable viruses and incommunicable viruses. Speaker 1 00:23:49 The incommunicable virus is the ones that it's the one you can't pass to. Other people. They, they can't catch it. You're not contagious. Uh, God has some incommunicable attributes, right? He's omniscient. He knows everything. He's omnipotent. He's all powerful. Uh, he's omnipresent. He's everywhere all the time. So those, those attributes are not passed on to us, but he also has communicable attributes, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness control. And, and, and so we got to ask ourselves, how do we get a communicable virus? We get close. Uh, you know, we're in a viral kind of year in 2020 as we, as we record this, um, you know, we're, we're social distancing, right? So we don't get the virus. We have to socially and distance ourselves from Christ, uh, in order to catch those things, um, to, to inhale his breath, right? The Holy spirit is also the breath of God to, to receive his kiss, right. Which is, you know, baptism, the Lord's supper, communion fellowship with other believers. And so on to, to, to get close to him, to eat and drink after him, you know, all of these things, we want to catch what Jesus has got, and the only way that you can catch what somebody's got is, is proximity. Your neediness, fellowship, love intimacy. Speaker 0 00:25:05 Yeah. No, that's no, that's good. Um, can you tell the story of, um, cause it was something that was, it felt so tender and I thought, I feel like it's going to take us there, but I don't, I don't necessarily want to go there and then I read it. Um, and it was almost the same thing. So, so what I mentioned before was this simultaneous center in st. NES. So I'm wondering if you can tell the story of when you were talking with your friends at dinner about Andrea Yates and not everybody may know who she is. So if we can, if we can say that in a, as kind of, I don't even know how to say it, but yeah. If you can talk about Andrea Yates and then this conversation that you had at dinner with your friends. Speaker 1 00:25:55 Yeah. So we're at dinner with some friends and radiates, uh, is a woman who, uh, who killed her, her, her children. Um, uh, she just had a moment of, of just, you know, coming to the end of herself, you know, with stress and feeling overwhelmed. And, uh, she has several small children and one by one, she drowned them in, uh, in their bathtub and was convicted and put in jail. And, you know, later on it was discovered that she had a mental illness and all of these things, but, but she's in jail for life, uh, for, for doing that. And sometime shortly after that happened and it, it made the news we're, we're in our small group, our church, small group, and we're going around just kind of thinking, Oh my goodness, like, how does that happen? How does somebody get to a point where they would, they would kill their own children and then keep killing their children. Speaker 1 00:26:55 And after one and another and another and another, and one of the women in the group who was actually one of the, one of the, uh, the, the moms that everybody looked up to, she said, I could do that. And we're like, what? And she said, she said, you put me in the right set of circumstances with the right amount of sleep deprivation and the right amount of stress. Um, I know it's in me, I've felt those things. I have felt murderous thoughts, uh, toward my own children in those moments. And, and then it just kind of the light bulb went on for all of us. And we're like me too. Um, you know, like, is it safe? Is it safe to say that, that, that those things are in me as well? And it turned out that this was a group where it was safe to say those things and, and it's true. Speaker 1 00:27:50 I mean, geez, why are we surprised that, that anybody would say that, right. When Jesus, in the sermon on the Mount says, look, if you have, you have had any amount of hate in your heart for anyone you've already murdered them, you've already got murdered at murderous intent. You've got that thing in you that leads people to do stuff like that. And if you were put in the same set of conditions, um, you know, uh, you probably would have done the same thing. Uh, uh, essentially what Jesus says in the sermon on the Mount. Right? And, and so, yeah, we need, we need grace. We need what we need. These us, that's the, that's the conclusion we all need him. Speaker 0 00:28:29 That's actually how so? So I kind of joke sometimes in my former life, before becoming a mother and, and moving to Texas and all of this, we, um, I was working in a child welfare setting, right? So I'm working with families who have been seriously affected by child abuse and neglect. And this was a state agency, a largely secular environment. But I, I couldn't have been more thankful because while it did kind of like you're saying with this woman, it really struck me as odd at first, how I was introduced to my job was this, one of my sort of senior, you know, senior supervisors basically said to me, we have to remember that each of us are one decision away from being where our clients are right now. And, and I kind of thought like, what, like what kind of, you know, the shock factor of, of what you guys experienced night initially in your home. Speaker 0 00:29:43 But the other part of that is to say, number one, we have to recognize that it's in us, like you just mentioned, but I think the part that you speak about so eloquently in your book is to say, but the point that they were making in my job was we have to treat each other as if we believe that to be true. Right. So if I'm only one bad decision away from being where my client is, then I have to treat her with the same dignity and respect and compassion that I would want to be treated if I were in her position. So when we see someone who has committed the, the sin that we can't even speak of, or when we, or when they say something that we think I can't fathom that ever coming out of someone's mouth, if we think to ourselves, how would I want someone to respond to me if I had just said that or done that, or been in that position or whatever, um, it, it changes us and, and it has potential to change them too. Right. I mean, I just felt like that that's the second kind of the second part of your book, right? Jesus has responded to us in this way now, how do we, how do we internalize that and respond to others with that same kind of gentleness? Speaker 1 00:31:08 Yeah. The, the apostle Paul lays lays that very thing out in the early chapters of Romans, where he gives this whole list in Romans, one of all the, you know, the debased, you know, evil things that are coming out of the human heart and, and being, you know, spilled out into the world. And then his conclusion is, you know, you're, you know, he's talking about the wrath of God and how it's poured out on this and this and this and this, and then he, and then he says at the end, and what about us? Are we any better? Absolutely not. And, and yeah, in other words, um, you know, be really careful when you get prophetic about something like the prophetic gift as a gift that God gives us, you know, to, to call out things that shouldn't be, but we must never grow beyond, uh, the reality that, that, that we are so capable of, uh, that, that we are so capable of the very things that we critique and, and, um, you know, give you an example. Speaker 1 00:32:12 Uh, there there's a, so our daughter went to, uh, went to a school, um, you know, here in Nashville. And, um, you know, when I'll probably upset some people when I say this, but, but like there, there are a few things that are, that are more perplexing than then kind of the, the woke white person who decides they want to be a, uh, and yet they've paid no personal price or costs for their message. Uh, and, and so, so our daughter is part of a school that, um, you know, basically when, when blackout Tuesday and all the marches started to happen, um, there was this letter like this, this, this, this, you know, like attacking the school for not being advanced enough on, you know, race related issues. And, you know, some pretty vicious things were said in this letter. And it was like signed by, you know, X number of alumni. Speaker 1 00:33:17 Right. And, um, meanwhile behind the scenes, the school has actually hired outside consultants. And for three years has been doing an internal audit on, you know, racial sensitivity and racial justice and cultural intelligence and, and, and empathy. And like three years, uh, have been, have been really, uh, working hard at, um, you know, becoming a truly, you know, empathetic, multicultural, uh, you know, context, right. Uh, still imperfect, but, but really, you know, giving it the best effort possible, you know, minority consultants coming in from the outside and all of that. And so there's this, this letter that's written, right. And, and, and, and so we sit down with our daughter and we're like, let's, let's scroll through a few Instagram feeds and let's see if we can find any non-white people, uh, you know, in the Instagram feeds. And, and we went through one angry, white woke student after another. Speaker 1 00:34:23 And I think we, we stopped after about a dozen, uh, Instagram accounts. We couldn't find a single ethnic minority in any of the pictures, uh, of all of these, you know, prophetic white woke people, uh, you know, whose message, you know, might, might have some real validity to it in terms of how things might've been, um, you know, when they were at this school, but, uh, our daughter then turns to us and says, you know, and our daughter is, you know, she was, she's, she's very, you know, personally invested in, in matters of justice. And it has been for years ever since she was in junior high, you know, she's a child of New York city and, you know, very invested in, you know, all things diversity and, you know, giving her life to, you know, the cause of middle, middle Eastern refugees and that kind of thing. So like she's in the Headspace and always has been. And, and she says, you know, I, I can't sign this petition, even, even though there were some issues when I was school, I can't sign this petition. Um, because, uh, I, as I looked down the list that the people that are criticizing the problem actually were the problem. Speaker 2 00:35:35 When, when we were in school, they were actually the Speaker 1 00:35:38 Racists. They were actually the ones who were, who were creating an uncomfortable environment for minority students. And, and, you know, just the, the point being, that's just a long circuitous anecdote to say that, that before we name a problem, uh, and call out a problem, we've gotta be pretty certain that we're not actually part of the problem first. Um, you know, Jesus talked about logs and specs, right? And he says, you know, before you, before you presumed to remove a speck from somebody else's eye, and of course Alexis, if you see a speck in my eye, it's a mercy for you to help me remove it, right. Because that can lead to infection and I could go blind, you know, worst case scenario. Um, so it's not about, you know, you shouldn't ever try to remove the speck from somebody's eye. You should not, you know, you should never try to correct somebody else. Speaker 1 00:36:33 It's not about that. But Jesus says you got to deal with a log in your own eye. First, in other words, when we go into these situations, we've got to go in regarding ourselves as hypocrite, number one, uh, and just think of if everybody approached conflict that way, uh, where they're looking at themselves before they they're looking at those that they're criticizing. I mean, it'd be a wonderful climate, uh, relationally, wouldn't it. But, but, um, we so often want to think, well, the log is in somebody else's eye. And if I have anything in mind, it's just a speck. So, so let's, let's deal with the problem out there. Um, Speaker 3 00:37:09 No, I wanted you to talk about that a little bit more because there was a part in one of the sections in your book, and I don't remember what chapter it was in, but you were talking about taking criticism and that we should all be, be able to take it. We should all try and, um, accepted when it is grounded. But that even when it's not that we should be able to posture ourselves to accept some of that. And I wish I didn't have a recent example from my own life where I felt like God really led me to do that where, you know, um, it was something was, was said, and there were some interactions. And I just thought, there's actually nothing about this. That's true. Speaker 3 00:38:13 I was up at four 30 in the morning in voluntarily for the next week or two, because I really felt God's spirit pulling me say, help me address and say, maybe that's not true, but what is right? Because just because that thing may not have been true, doesn't mean I could come out of that completely unscathed with nothing to learn, um, the situation. And so, like I said, I, I wish I hadn't just recently had to do do, but how do you, can you, can you just talk a little bit about that aspect of it? Because it is so easy, like you're saying, and like the gospels Jesus tells us in the gospels. Do you want to just say, if you just hold still, I'll just grab that real quick and we'll be, and we'll be done. I'll just get it out of your eye. I'll get it out of your space. But what do we do when someone tries to grab it? And we're like, Whoa, like how do we address that in our own lives? Because that's key to how we can interact with others. Speaker 1 00:39:24 Yeah. So Tim Keller, uh, who I served with for several years in New York, um, he's remarkable this personally, and there's a whole anecdote that I'll just tease your listeners with. They can read about Tim and they want, uh, just a wonderful shining example of the way that he really lives this out. But, but he says, um, he says, we should always, um, you know, be circumstance circumspect. When we receive a criticism, even an unfair criticism, he says, we've got to resist the urge to go on the attack. We've got to resist the urge to try to shame, embarrass, put the other person in their place. Um, you know, don't, and don't become cynical and don't, you know, become a canceler right. Um, he says, look, even when, and he openly acknowledges, he says, look, most of the criticism that, that he receives he says is, is, is for, for having views and positions that he actually doesn't hold, you know, people, cherry picking things out of context and creating a narrative. Speaker 1 00:40:36 Like we talked about, uh, you know, a few minutes ago, uh, you know, some people call him a cultural Marxist, you know, like so far left because of his emphasis on the poor and justice. And some people call them a right wing conservative because of his position on, um, you know, gender and marriage and, you know, things like that. And so, um, and, and so he's gonna, you know, he's going to take the hits, right? And, and so he says, he says, and he learned this from John Newton. Who's the pastor who wrote amazing grace, right. And John Newton has this series of letters that he wrote to young ministers. And one of the young, one of the letters that John Newton wrote to a young minister was called on controversy. And it's about when you receive unfair criticism. And Newton says that, um, when you are criticized unfairly, uh, it's always best to look for a kernel of truth. Speaker 1 00:41:32 That might be that criticism. So you can have something to take to the Lord, you know, ask for forgiveness and graves and receive it. It becomes a gospel opportunity, even in an unfair criticism. Uh, another person that I love on this is a guy named Jack Miller, who was from, you know, the, the, from Pennsylvania, he's a pastor and a seminary professor and, and a really deep, deep awareness of the grace of Christ. And just walked as a forgiven man just lived his life as a forgiven man through years and years of formation in those identity statements of who we are in Christ. And, and, and, and when he was unfair, w is unfairly criticized, his standard response was a, uh, you don't even know the half of it. And yeah. And B thank you for, um, for not, um, for not verbalizing the reality of how bad it really is, you know, like thank you for only going that far. Speaker 1 00:42:35 I don't recognize, um, myself in, in a number of the things that you're saying here, but, but at least I'm thankful that what you're saying isn't nearly as bad as it actually is. And, you know, there's just this disarming thing about that. I mean, you, you want to shut a critic down. Um, it's not going to be through shouting over them. It's going to be through saying, you know what, um, I don't necessarily agree with that, but there are 10 other things that if you knew about those 10 other things, you know, you'd know that, that you've just let me off the hook in reality, you know? And so that takes though a lot again, uh, you know, back to the, the, the thing that we were talking about a few minutes ago, it, it, it, again, points out how much we need to be with Christ and receive the resources of Christ, um, you know, to, to form our hearts, uh, to be ready for those moments, um, you know, to be spiritually ready for those moments, if that makes sense. Speaker 3 00:43:40 Thank you. Um, sorry, real life. My dog was anyway, call the eight year old and come grab her out. This is the, uh, everybody's at home on different things, Speaker 3 00:43:59 But no, I loved, I loved that, um, that, that example of you don't know the half of it, you know, um, and I just think about us being in relationship with one another, as the body of Christ. It's like, this is going to be good for our own personal spiritual formation, our own personal sanctification, but what a joy, this will continue to be as we can communally do this, right. If we can catch ourselves and, and, and when as a community, we can kind of you do that. Um, maybe make one more thought to that, Alexis. Absolutely. Yes. Speaker 1 00:44:37 So, so there's that part about us catching ourselves, um, you know, and, and, and, and humbling ourselves, but then there's this other part, uh, you know, when you're talking about the community dynamic of catching each other, doing good, you know, uh, of, you know, Paul frames, it this way says, encourage one another and build one another up, don't tear each other down, meaning that, you know, in the same way that we need, uh, you know, 10 good words from Christ in order to be able to deal with one, you know, aspect of guilt, shame, or regret we need, we need 10 positive, good identity words from Christ in the same way. Um, we, we set ourselves up in community to be able to remove the specs from one another one another's eyes, or, or as, you know, Galatians six says, you know, you who should, who are spiritual, should restore gently. Those who are caught in transgression, there's that word, generalists again. Um, but, but in order to have the kind of climate, uh, in, in a community, um, you know, we, we've got to pronounce 10, um, life-giving words over one another for every, you know, constructive, redemptive critique we might bring to the table, if that makes sense. Speaker 3 00:45:53 Yeah, it's good. And I think that the more we do that, right, the more that we will learn to trust each other with the critique, right. When we're, when we're confident that someone can see us, when we're trying that someone can see our hearts through our actions, when we can, when we can see that, then we can trust one another more to point out when the criticisms come, because then it, it even feels like it's coming from a more loving place, right. When it, when you feel seen by that person and you can, I know that they see me, not just my mistakes, they see me and they see my character. Um, and they see the things that I'm trying to do, and the ways I'm trying to be more like Christ, they see that. And so when you come with a critique, then it's easier to receive, right? When you feel seen and loved, like you mentioned before, um, at the same time by them, Speaker 1 00:46:58 I mean, the principles of, of parenting, uh, really apply to really do apply to the principles of community. Um, you know, Dan Allinder has this great summary of, of what constitutes life giving parenting. Uh, and he basically says that kids are asking two questions all the time. And the first question is of their parents. First question is, do you love me? And, um, the second one is CA can I get away with whatever I want? Uh, and, and as long as we're continually establishing a climate where there's, there's the unquestionably, the answer to the first question is yes. And unquestionably. The answer to the second question is no, you know, the kids are gonna grow up, um, you know, feeling loved and given proper life, giving healthy boundaries, et cetera. But I think it's really important to remember that that, that, that child never leaves us. Speaker 1 00:47:59 You know, we are all still the person we were born to be, and Jesus even calls us back into that space. Right? You've got to receive the kingdom, like a child. We've got to become a child again, in order to receive the kingdom and to be fully human. And, and, uh, you know, that line in the movie wonder be kind, because every person you meet is fighting a hard, hidden battle. That that's just another way of saying everyone's still a child on the inside. Right. Um, and, and, uh, you know, my, my, my wife notices this, like whenever we would visit our parents or my parents home, she said, you know, you just change. You become a different person when you step into your parents' house and, uh, you know, for good, or for ill, you, you change and become a different person. And, and what I realized, as she said, that is I, I become the kid. I was in junior high when I walked back into my parents' house at age 50, you know? And, and so just to be aware of that, that, that there's no such person, you know, everybody is, is, is overwhelmed and under encouraged just to just go into relationships and community with, with that awareness that just like you, everyone is overwhelmed and under encouraged on some level. Speaker 3 00:49:17 Yeah. Um, I'm wondering if you can, I'll ask one kind of final or give us one kind of final prompt, and then I'll let you take us where you want to, um, to, to end our time together. But the, the beginning or the subtitle of your book is our secret weapon in an age of us against them. And as we record this, we are a week away, less than a week away from when the election will be finished at the end of October right now. And the phrasing that I've heard and I'm not alone in the last month is basically, um, we're, we're S where's the unity we're. So we're so divided right now. We want unity and unity, um, is, is kind of a buzz word right now. Um, but in this, in this age of us against them, I'm wondering because, because the thought I had after reading your book, wasn't unity necessarily like there is an us against them right now. Speaker 3 00:50:29 That's for sure. They're there, we do feel division in a lot of different spheres of life. That's for sure. But when I thought maybe, maybe unity isn't even the right word, but I feel like some people are saying unity and meaning homogeneous. Like we're, we're well, we're all just going to, or is that the right form of that word, but we're always going to look the same, right. So, so right now we're divided, but we, but what we want is unity, which means, or AKA, we're all gonna look the same, but in this gentleness and in our secret weapon, in an age of us versus them, when I put the book down, I thought I can see the, the division for sure that doesn't take that doesn't, that doesn't take any kind of special lens to see the division it's there, but it didn't look like some call to some magical or symbolic or evasive unity. It felt more like to me as a reader, it felt more like a call to compassionate relationship, which is not the same as being the same or having the same, or doing the same or, or saying the same. Right. So I guess, talk to the us versus them part of, of this and what, what is the goal or what is, what does that look like? Speaker 1 00:52:00 Yeah. Uh, it looks like love across the lines of difference. Um, not love in the absence of difference, but love across the lines of difference. There's a big difference between unity and uniformity. Uniformity is, is when, you know, we become sort of robotic, right? Yeah. Uniformity is what happens in an echo chamber. A uniformity is what happens in a community, uh, or in some cases in a, in a nation, the more tyrannical than the, the nation's leadership is uniformity is, you know, fall in line or else you will pay. Um, that's the case in some places of worship as well, unfortunately. Uh, but, but unity is what Paul is a word that Paul used to describe what, what Christ has paved the way for between Jews and Gentiles who were very different ethnically, uh, uh, they were very different in their traditions, in their politics, uh, you know, and their socio-political sort of viewpoints, uh, you know, they're very different and coming from very different places and backgrounds and histories, and yet he called them to be one in Christ, Jesus, right? Speaker 1 00:53:09 He says, there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and father of us all. And so, um, unity is about, uh, the gospel of Jesus Christ, transcending, those things that have potential to divide, which, um, you know, I'll, I'll tip my hand a little bit in the book. I, I, I, my theory is that that, that the resources really do not exist in the world, uh, outside of Jesus Christ for true community or for true diversity, um, for, for, for a true, not just tolerance, because what tolerance is, is just a thinly veiled form of hatred and contempt. Uh, but, but, but, but, but truly love and curiosity and mutual learning and mutual rubbing off on each other, um, you know, sort of this complimentary, uh, dynamic of relationship where, where we, we actually, we value and treasure our differences because we, we learn and grow from them and also have our rough edges, you know, shaved off as, as we engage with those who come from different perspectives under Christ. Speaker 1 00:54:18 But, but I don't think those resources exist, uh, outside of, of, uh, of what Christ has accomplished, uh, through his life, death, burial, and resurrection, and, you know, as a, a 21st century American white guy, uh, I, I am, I am constantly trying to remind myself that, that my hope rests on the shoulders of a Brown skin, first century, middle Eastern Jewish man, who was, was a refugee, uh, during his childhood who was homeless during his adult life and who died as, as a political and, um, you know, someone who was regarded as an enemy of the state of Rome, uh, politically, and, uh, like as a, as a failed revolutionary, right? Uh, at least that's what they thought. Um, my hope rests on somebody who couldn't be more different than me, and yet who told his disciples, I want you to go to the ends of the earth, just like, I want you to go to Jerusalem and, and, and bring them in. Speaker 1 00:55:14 And, um, I'm part of that them group, right? I, America has never been the center of the Christian story. We've always been on the outskirts on the periphery. We are the ends of the earth that Jesus talks about. So, so with that in mind, um, you know, I, it, it, it, it ought to be at least, I think an intriguing pursuit in a, in a, in a, in a motivating, compelling pursuit to, um, to learn Christ through people who are different than me who see things differently than me politically, or, you know, ethnically or economically have a different experience than me. Um, and yet who have a shared faith in Christ. And so, um, but to your question, a general answer is a lot more about becoming the kinds of people, uh, that can, that can contribute to a more unifying reality between different people groups. Speaker 1 00:56:11 Um, like w like I said, at the beginning of the interview, the book that I wrote Jesus outside the lines is more of a practical, here's what it can look like to engage across differences on subjects, like race, like politics, like, um, you know, sexuality, like, uh, um, I don't know, I'm forgetting a lot of the chapters. I wrote that one so long ago, but, but that's more the practical outworking of, of what, what can happen when, you know, the heart is cultivated in a way that a general answer tries to lead readers. If that makes sense. Speaker 3 00:56:50 Yeah. Thank you so much, Scott, what would you leave us with that? We, what question did I not ask? What, what did you not get the opportunity to say that you would want to encourage us? And maybe we can even phrase it this way. This is going to air between Thanksgiving and Christmas. This is going to air after the election, but before we, before 2020s in the rear view mirror, what would you, what words of encouragement could you leave us with? Speaker 1 00:57:19 Yeah, well, I mean, this has been a dumpster fire of a year. And, um, you know, the season that you're describing is the beginning of advent, uh, which was about Jesus coming into the world, which created a dumpster fire of a situation for Joseph and Mary and everybody around him. I mean, the coming of Christ led to a mass genocide, uh, from, from, you know, they called him Herod the great, uh, you know, the, they call it the slaughter of the innocence where every, every boy, uh, under the age of two was, was murdered because of heritage decree, uh, because a rumor that he heard that, that, that people are saying that this, this young, you know, son of Joseph and Mary from Nazareth is the, is the Messiah, right? And so he was a refugee, right? Uh, like conditions were terrible. Uh, you know, what, what we've experienced in 2020, uh, would have been like paradise to, to what Christ and the people around Christ were going through at that time, which is to say that what Isaiah wrote centuries before in Isaiah chapter nine, which we hear read during every advent season, if we identify with a local church, which I want to say that all of your listeners who belong to Jesus Christ, they also need to belong to his bride. Speaker 1 00:58:37 Okay. So, like, you can't have a relationship with me if you don't want a relationship with my wife. Okay. So, so, so that's kind of a sidetrack, but, but get back to the point here, uh, we'll hear Isaiah and I read in churches all over the world, and Isaiah says of Jesus, the son of David, um, you know, to us, a child is born, right? And so he's born into these awful set of circumstances, uh, to us as a child was born. And then it goes on to say, and the government will be on his shoulders and of the increase of his government. And if his reign there will be no end. And so my encouragement to your listeners, as well as to myself, is no matter how bad it gets, uh, and this has been a bad, bad, bad year, uh, for, for a lot of us, no matter how bad it gets, uh, uh, your, your best days are always ahead of you. Speaker 1 00:59:32 You know, you know, I, I heard somebody say, don't you just miss living in precedented times, they can't get away. Uh, you know, cause we live in all these unprecedented, right? Like, like, like, uh, you know, I saw this picture on Instagram is a picture of, uh, for, um, Johnny on the spots they were on fire. And the caption said if 2020 were a scented candle, it would look, uh, and, and, and, you know, murder Hornets, uh, you know, a brain eating virus, this, um, you know, an asteroid, the size of the empire state building, headed toward the earth, the economy crashing people, losing their jobs, all the COVID numbers, you know, and just, you know, churches, you know, losing so many people and, you know, touring artists not allowed to tour anymore, you know, just, everything's just crazy, right. It's been a terrible, terrible year for a lot of people. Speaker 1 01:00:27 Um, and yet, uh, um, you know, are the good days are not the good old days. The good days are still the days that are ahead. Um, uh, you know, this will pass. And Jesus, even in the midst of all this, it says is making all things new, uh, including us, but, but, uh, w w w like Isaiah also said, you know, no I've seen no ear has heard what marvelous things that the Lord has in store for them. And, you know, Isaiah was one who was, you know, in his earthly ministry, nobody listened to him. They despised him, they opposed him. And eventually they sought him into that's how he died. He never saw the fruit of its ministry. And yet Isaiah becomes the most quoted book, uh, from the old Testament in the new Testament. We sing, uh, from Isaiah every year in Handel's Messiah and, and all those wonderful prophecies about Christ. Speaker 1 01:01:22 You know, they're, they're, they're coming true as history unfolds, and they're all going to completely come come true. Which means that, you know, like what are the rings says, everything sad will come untrue, um, because the gospel will become more visibly and tangibly truer and truer and truer and truer as history continues to unfold. And so take heart. He has overcome the world by coming up from the dead. And so he will, he will take all of the steps, mourning and crying and pain and will swallow it up in victory. Revelation. 21 is another really encouraging passage of scripture along these things. But the future is always bright, best days are always ahead of us. And so never forget that that would be my encouragement in a crappy year. Like this one. Speaker 3 01:02:04 Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I just, I think I'm just going to say, I feel pastored right now, so thank you. Cause I feel like we're, we need that. Right. We need that. Um, we all need that pastoral. We need those words. Um, we need those words in our lives right now. So thank you for sharing them with us. Um, where can we grab the book and where can we find you on, um, on social media? Speaker 1 01:02:33 Sure. Like, you know, the book as always it's cheapest on Amazon, you know, the price is lowest there. Um, that you can find [email protected], just my first and last name.com. Uh, and that'll give you information about the church I pastor about my books. And also people can subscribe. I do a weekly blog, uh, that goes to people's inbox and people can subscribe to that there and a few other things. So just my website will, you know, it kind of consolidates everything I'm involved with. Speaker 3 01:03:05 Perfect. I'll link to it. And I'll just put, I'll just put it out there and say, if you are on Twitter, you need to be following Scott on Twitter if you were on Instagram too. But, um, I actually got on Twitter because I was on Instagram, uh, have been on Instagram for so long. And then I found out a lot of the authors and passengers that I love to see on Instagram are, um, the Twitter is where it's at for them. So I would say you, you are one of the, uh, encouraging posts that come through my Twitter feed. So when you guys are looking for encouragement in this dumpster fire of a year, follow Scott on Twitter and you'll, and you'll get it there. So thank you so much for coming on Scott. I appreciate your time and your words and your message for us today. Thank you. Speaker 0 01:03:52 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit [email protected].