Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis besetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together. Posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 1 00:00:39 Hey everybody, I am sitting across from Tara, Beth leech. I am, I am so excited. I was able to finish your brand new book right before lunch. Today. It is called radiant church restoring the credibility of our witness. Hi, Tara, Beth. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here today. Oh, I'm so thrilled that you're here and I was just confirming that you are indeed in Chicago. I am in Houston. It is green here for sure. Yes. Yes. We have, uh, no leaves on the trees. Uh, we have about nine inches of snow and it is seven degrees and you know what? Cold Frank came in last night. And so it was like 45 and we woke up this morning and it was really chilly. I almost really fad, almost put my jacket on when I went to pick the kids up, but you know, just threw it over my shoulder and put it in the car instead.
Speaker 1 00:01:35 But I was, I was saying that because when I told you before we started recording that the first time that I heard you speak was actually when you, I think you were still in California, you were on Mark collaborativeness. Yeah. You were on Michael Albertson's podcast and you were at pads NAS. Yeah. Back then. Did I say it? Yes. You said it right. So, um, tell us a little bit about, um, just kind of center us, like where you are, you were in California and now you're in Chicago. I feel like we're close to the same age. We've each had a few kids. So can you just tell us a little bit about that part of your life? Yeah. You bet. Yeah. So I was a senior pastor at first church in the Nazarene in Pasadena, affectionately known as PAs Inez, FAS NAS is a historic, um, big, old, beautiful church in Pasadena.
Speaker 1 00:02:24 And it was, um, there was a wide, or it was a wild ride. I just combined ride in wild, a wide. Um, no it was a wild ride and, um, ups downs. This turns a lot of really hard moments. Uh, and while we were there, my dad came down with stage four stomach cancer and was given a year to live. And my mom with Alzheimer's and I had been flying back and forth, trying to care for my parents at the same time. I have an eight year old and 10 year old, um, boys, two boys, and it got to be too much just the emotional load of caring for my folks, senior pastoring,
Speaker 2 00:03:00 A turnaround church, large church. Um, I just reached a point in August where I said, Lord, something's got to give. And I just felt such an overwhelming sense of release. And so we moved back to Chicago land to be near my parents. And I am back on staff at Christ church and Oak Brook is a non-denominational church. And, um, I was on staff there before going to Pasa. So it's really good to be back. It feels like home, it's familiar, it's family, and I'm also able to freely care for my folks. I've been married to my husband, Jeff Love of my life for 15 years. He is my rocket scientist husband. You worked for NASA jet propulsion laboratory when we lived in Pasadena. Um, and he works, um, at, at a company out here that I, I don't even know what he works on. Cause it's like classified. He can't even talk about it, but he's a brilliant, brilliant man and my best friend.
Speaker 1 00:03:55 That's awesome. That's really cool because I feel like, like I said, I think we're close to the same age. We've got four kids, but two of them are boys, um, similarly age. So I get that and my husband is a scientist too, but like the opposite. So if your husband goes up in rockets, mine is a geologist. So he is working squarely on the earth. So, um, so yeah, I love that. And I love that you talk about your assignment right now at your church, feeling like home, um, because that terabyte, that brings me to this gift of a book that you just gave the world. Thank you so much, this, um, this word about restoring the credibility of our witness, which I have to tell you has been one of the number one, if not the number one topics of conversation that I've had with my close girlfriends lately, um, we're recording this at the end of January.
Speaker 1 00:04:56 And, um, specifically after, um, after the six, we have these conversations where we are speechless in saying, what are we doing? And, um, and how do we convince people? Um, really just how do we share the real Jesus? Um, our credibility is, is, is, is very worn at this point. And, um, when I say family, I feel like this book that you have brought is spoken, um, like a, like a, like a seasoned senior member of the family, or you have, you've brought us a message where you've, I feel like you have said, um, listen, we've been, we've been doing this for awhile and I've been, I've been paying attention. I've been watching for a while. And here's what I see. Do you see this? Um, yeah. So can you, can you tell us what, what brought you to write a book like this?
Speaker 2 00:06:06 Sure, sure. Yeah, it began, I started writing in 2018. It was a long process, but, um, I had been pastoring at PazNaz for two and a half years at that point and I was going through it and I write a lot about my experience at PazNaz the ups, the downs, the valleys, and some of the gut wrenching moments that we experienced and really, you know, it began with, uh, so many people leaving the church out of the gate because of my gender. Um, and the controversy that ensued there. And then 2016, we did a, a preaching series called the politics of Jesus, where for me pastorally, I wanted to guide the church through the election, uh, not in a partisan way, but in a kingdom way. How do we think about politics? How do we think about, um, engaging on in the political world as Christians?
Speaker 2 00:07:03 And so we did this preaching series and the day after the election was the last day of the preaching series and our congregation was, was split. Um, over the election. We had people that were scared that were lamenting, that woke up the day after the election, just thinking what has happened. We had families that were, uh, working on emergency plans, um, in case they were, um, you know, had to leave the country, um, um, immigrant families, we had families, um, that were afraid that, you know, um, that, you know, immigration agents were going to show up at their doorstep and deport them. And then we had other people that were very happy about the election. And so I stood there that Sunday, it was a communion Sunday, and I preached the message and I named where everyone was in our congregation and invited people to the communion table.
Speaker 2 00:07:58 And as I was naming where our congregation was and I, I, I actually put the manuscript of that section of my sermon and this book, I started watching people leave one by one and as pastors do we follow up with people, Hey, what's wrong? And, you know, we had people that were upset, both sides. Um, we had, we had folks that were upset that, um, I didn't condemn president Trump from the pulpit. We had folks that were upset that, um, uh, that it seemed to them that I had voted on the left and that I was being too liberal. And so what I started to observe when it came to this just crazy polarized political world is I was always upsetting both sides of the political parties. Um, and that, to me in my, you know, pastorally was just a huge concern and the ways that I was observing that, um, the left and the right Christians were getting, so just, um, wrapped up in this partisan world and this deep belief that the kingdom of God is going to be enacted, um, through partisan politics, which could not be further from scripture.
Speaker 2 00:09:11 Um, and it just further from kingdom theology as Jesus is Lord, and Jesus is King. And so that was, you know, a number of the issues that as I, you know, as a pastor was just observing in the church, you know, um, the ways that we root ourselves in the idolatry of success, or the ways that we root ourselves in the idolatry of hyperindividualism or the ways that we root ourselves, um, in the idolatry of nationalism, um, or even just some of the systemic issues in which the church has been involved in, um, whether it be, um, systemic racism or systemic sexism, you know, all the ism isms that the church has participated in and been wrapped up. And I just thought, Oh my God, goodness church, do you not see that the world is watching us? And do you not see that to the world?
Speaker 2 00:10:02 Our witnesses diminished that, that we aren't doing our job in our job that is in partnering with God in this incredible mission of God that we've been invited into, that we ought to have such a radiant, attractive and attractive witness that people are drawn to us, not repulsed. And, and, and one of the things that's so concerning to me is we've taken this, this, um, idea of, of the world being repulsed by our witness. And by the way, why are the ripples? Because they don't see Jesus, uh, they're not seeing love, and we're twisting it and saying we're being persecuted and we're turning it into culture Wars. And, and so it's just a profound concern for me as a pastor that, um, instead of looking at the, our own credibility of our witness, um, and naming the systems that we've participated in. And instead of saying, you know, what, maybe our witnesses diminished, what we've done is we've turned the finger outward and we turned it into a culture Wars and what we've got to do more than ever, um, as we have got to get on our knees, and we've got to say, Lord, search our hearts, we've got to do the practice of examine of confession, of lament, of repentance.
Speaker 2 00:11:26 Um, and so in 2018, I sat down, I was so burdened. I was so weary shepherding through this. And I was at a coffee shop in mammoth, California, my family, um, we were camping there and, uh, my husband and boys, they went hiking that day or fishing or something. And I sat down with my computer and I wrote 8,000 words in one day. And I just wrote and wrote like, I couldn't stop. I just could not stop. And as I was writing, um, I just, it was, it was such a therapeutic writing. I wasn't sure that it was going to turn into a book at first. Um, and sure enough, you know, my talk with my editor and it, it, by the grace of God, this, this turned into a book has changed a lot since that first 8,000 words. But it, um, here we are, um, I guess two, three years later, it's, it's a book
Speaker 1 00:12:28 It's, it's an incredible book. And one w kind of want to echo, I didn't jot down who it was. Um, Oh, here it is. Um, Michael Frost's endorsement, when he basically says it's easy, right? It's easy to point out what's wrong with the white evangelical church, but what's not easy to do is to draw on the abundant grace of God, to show us how to live. Like what, what, what those radiant lives in Christ look like. And so I I'm imagining how that 8,000 those 8,000 therapeutic words, which wow, by the way, but like those, you know, 8,000 therapeutic words have turned right into, um, have morphed and evolved, um, into this book, which is something that is, um, it's edifying in the sense that you do exactly what you just said you did with your congregation, you named these things. And, and, and I felt like I was looking in a mirror when I read it.
Speaker 1 00:13:41 I felt like this is what she's done. She has put a mirror up to me, so I can do exactly. As you said, that we're not pointing out any more, that hasn't gotten us any place. Good. And more than that, that hasn't gotten our neighbors any place good for us to point at them and say, you're the problem. Right. Um, so I felt like it was a mirror in a lot of ways to say, not, not just what's wrong, but I, but you really go into a lot kind of, how did we get here, um, in a lot of ways. And, and that was, that was as powerful for me as, um, as any other part of the book, really. Um, can you tell us, and part of that, how did we get here? One of the powerful, um, chapters and sections of the chapter was when you talk about these distorted images of God, we, as the church have, and, and maybe just take us through a few of those, if you can, and then what happens as we continue to focus on those images of God that are in fact distorted, what happens in us and what happens through us when we focus on those things?
Speaker 2 00:14:57 Yeah, absolutely. So we create almost, um, idolatrous images of God, of the God that we want. And we then end up orienting our lives and worshiping this God that sometimes is a far cry from the Jesus of scripture. You know, there's, there's God, the nationalist, for example. Um, and I think this is probably one of the biggest, um, struggles that I'm observing right now. And this country is we believe as though America is exceptional and God favors America, America, and God favors us as though we are, you know, the new Israel, um, and it's profoundly concerning, um, the way that I observed, you know, just, and we see this, you know, in, in places where the American flag might be on equal footing as the cross on our platforms, um, as though they are one and the same, or, you know, another one, um, is the Santa Claus, God, which has, you know, so common, we just look at God as God just comes to us and gives us whatever it is we need.
Speaker 2 00:16:16 Um, or there's the ticket to heaven to God, um, which is so common with evangelicalism. You know, God is, God is a means in which I can get into heaven. Um, and you know, one of my concerns is, is we are creating these images of God without even looking at the lens of Jesus when Jesus is the one that says, you want to know what God is like, look at me. Um, and we see just the fullness of the love of God on display the cross. And some of these false images of God that we've created are so opposite of what we see at the cross.
Speaker 1 00:16:52 Yeah. And, and one of them that stood out to me, because when you, when you were saying, we use these kinds of idolatrous images of God that we want, um, I think it was in there. It was, God is like the Punisher or the, or the judge to write. And I think that's one of those, it's like, that's not necessarily who we want to be our God, but that sometimes is who we want to be someone else's God. Right. And, and when we have these distorted images that you talk about in the book, we become conformed to them. Right? Exactly. And so like, whoever our distorted image of God is then we unknowingly because we're worshiping this weird distorted image. We things take over like, exactly that God says we will, like, we will become like that whom we worship. Right. And so when we worship this nationalistic, God, then we start internalizing some of those aspects right. Of that idolatrous God. And how has that, when you see that, how has that affected our witness? How has that affected the way that we interact with our neighbors?
Speaker 2 00:18:12 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it has effected our witness because we have become a deformed image of God. Uh, and deformed is a strong word, but essentially, um, we, we have a deformed, a witness, you know, there's witnesses about bearing witness to the goodness of God and bearing witness to the love of God that we see at the cross. And we become who and what we worship. And, you know, I think this is where some of James K Smith's work is so, so important as well. You know, when you just see these different liturgies of the world, um, and, and the ways that it either forms us into the likeness of Christ or away from the likeness of Christ and essentially deforms us. And I think, you know, some of these gods that we have created, uh, not only are they idolatrous, but oftentimes it centers us at this, at the center of this story, um, which again, continues to perpetuate this very deformed witness.
Speaker 1 00:19:14 So really as believers, we are, we are showing a preview to our neighbors of what life with God is like, and you have this amazing section in your book where you talk about what kind of preview are we giving. Um, and, and, and I'm, I'm going to use the language. I don't, I don't think it's the language you use, but I'm going to say maybe contracting from what are we giving and what kind of, what kind of preview ought we be giving, um, you, you have a list of, of beautiful things like, um, mercy and gentleness and solidarity, these things that are a preview of life with God in the kingdom. But can you talk about that in our witness? What does that look like right now?
Speaker 2 00:20:03 Yeah. Yeah. The world is watching us and, you know, there's that phrase, you can't fool the kids, um, church Christians, we can't fool the world. Uh, it's clear when we're choosing, um, and we're being subducted by power over love, over choosing being right, and correct over love, or we're choosing force over mercy, or we're choosing, um, coercion over gentleness, um, or we're choosing, um, polarization, uh, over, um, kindness and on. And right now, the ways that Christians are behaving in this world, we are giving a preview of something that looks like a far cry from the kingdom community that Jesus preaches about in the sermon on the Mount and a far cry from the kingdom community that we see in revelation 21, a world of no more's in revelation 21. We see that there's going to be a world of no more sorrow. There's going to be no more tears.
Speaker 2 00:21:11 There's going to be no more pain. In other words, there's going to be a known a world of no more injustice, a world of numerous sexism, a world of no more racism, a world of no more controlling or fighting for power. This is the world of where the sons and daughters of the resurrection will gather in this worshiping beautiful kingdom community. And we don't wait for that kingdom community to come some day. But as Christians, we partner with Christ here and now, and we pray that the kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven. And so what if we believe that? And we think about the preview, then when the world sees the preview, do they say, wow, that's what the kingdom is going to be like, no thanks. Or do they say, wow, that's what the kingdom is like. I want to follow your Jesus. We're ambassadors, we're ambassadors. We're giving the world a preview. Um, and people are watching us. And that's why there's so much at stake here so much is at stake with our witness. Um, this matters, and we cannot afford any longer to choose culture Wars or pointing outward, but it's time that we get on our knees and we clean our house and our hearts. And we repent.
Speaker 1 00:22:43 I wonder if you can talk about that sentence a little bit and, and, and I'll give you a little bit of the, of the context that I'm kind of going for just from, from what you just said, because you, you kept using the pronoun. We, we, we need to repeat, right. This matters. We, we, we, and I feel like one of the things that we have seen in the church right now is not just the culture Wars and the pointing outward that you talk about. But when we see when someone points out wow. Church, that looks like a destructive witness you have there. Yeah. I feel like one of the things we've seen is, Oh, I know they're, they're really messed up. Right. Right. So we, so we, again start pointing, maybe not outward now at the culture, but to different parts of the body.
Speaker 1 00:23:36 And we say that's because that foot over there is really messed up. Thankfully, I'm not that way. Right. But what I hear in your language and what I feel like read in your book is this is, um, is a call. We were hearing a lot about unity right now. Right. And the other side of that is people are saying, there's no unity with no justice and no accountability. But what I feel like I'm hearing you say in this is we need to repent. I feel like there is a unity in that repentance. Can you talk to that repentance?
Speaker 2 00:24:10 Absolutely. Yeah. There's yeah. You know, and we are quick to push her, your native, but we have so much work to do. And when I say we, even of course, you know, this book who, who, and what am I critiquing? I am a child of white evangelicalism. That's where I came from. And that's what I know. And so that's when I say we, I'm talking about prep, predominantly white evangelicals. And so, you know, and it's also the white evangelicals who have caused a lot of harm. Um, it's also the white evangelicals that are say, can't, we all just get along. I want unity and we're, we're rushing the unity, but we're skipping a hundred steps. We're skipping a lot of hard work, uh, before we can get there. Um, we first need to name, we need to get honest. Uh, we're not being honest right now.
Speaker 2 00:24:57 We're not grounded in reality, we're living. And just this, this other reality. Um, and this other narrative that we are refusing to see how, um, it has been harming our witness and harming others in this world. Um, and we've, we've got to confess, um, we, we need to that, uh, we, we skip over limit so often, uh, with the corporate sense of the church, but we need to lament limit is huge in scripture. Uh, and then, you know, out of, out of lamenting, we need to get begin the process of repentance, which is going to be a long time of rebuilding. Um, we don't repent overnight, but repenting involves dismantling toxic systems. Repentance involves, um, confessing to our brothers and sisters of color, who we have harmed, uh, repentance involves, um, dismantling, dismantling, um, toxic patriarchy, um, and the church that has caused abuse and harm, um, repentant involves changing the systems and structures of power within the church to create a community that is a reflection of the kingdom that bears fruit to like the kingdom. So this type of repentance is, um, really hard work. So hard that I wonder what we'll see in my lifetime, I believe it's possible. And that's why I wrote this book because I believe ultimately that Jesus believes in us, um, as a whole, the whole church, um, and that, that we can become the church Jesus believes in, but we've got some really hard work to do first.
Speaker 1 00:26:52 Yeah, I agree. And, um, and it's really humbling to, to hear that said, I think it's true that, you know, yeah. There is a wonder how much of this will happen in, in our lifetimes. Um, because it takes, it takes all of us, right. To recognize how deep the wounds are and, and how toxic the systems are and how wrapped up we have been in them. Um, not just living in them, but building many of them as well. Um, we have done our part to construct them. Yep. That's right. I was, had the honor of talking with, um, an author, uh jemartisby a few weeks ago and we were talking about his new book and he said he really believes that the church needs to be such a, a vital part of fighting racism because we have been so involved in it. Right. We have been so close.
Speaker 1 00:28:01 We've been part of the problem for so long, right. That it is absolutely essential that we are part of the solution. Right. Um, and I feel like it's, it's that way with a lot of the isms that you're pointing out, we have not been victims to the isms. Um, we have, we have built many of them or we have, we have definitely done our part. And so when we're part of the problem and part of, um, the wounding that's happened in the toxicity, then we need to be part of the solution. But that doesn't mean we just get to say, Oh, okay. Yeah, I see that. And, um, and move on, you know, I was talking with one of my girlfriends, like I said, this has been kind of a common conversation. And we, we are also children of white evangelicalism. And she said, I just don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 00:28:50 Right. I think that we often, um, we feel that way. We feel immobilized in that. And that was one of the things I told her. I said, I said, friend, I don't know exactly what this looks like, but one of the things that's been on my heart is that lament is active. Yes. Like it is something that I can do. So can you maybe, cause I think it's a, I think it's a lost kind of a, lost a liturgy, a lost spiritual formation aspect of our, of our, especially of white evangelicalism. Can you just talk a little bit about that? Cause I don't even know that all of us are entirely familiar with what you mean when you say lament, especially as a process toward repentance.
Speaker 2 00:29:32 Yeah. You bet. So an a really, really helpful book, um, is from Graham Hill and grace, Jason, Kim, um, restoring our broken humanity where they talk a lot about the necessity of lament. And one of the things that they say about limit is limit is about regretting and mourning the past and then moving towards repentance justice and new life together. And when you look at lament that we see in scripture and another helpful book is prophetic lament. Uh, but when you look at the, is that <inaudible> yes. That's <inaudible> yes. Thank you. Sorry. I should have said that.
Speaker 1 00:30:16 No, I just want to put them in the notes so we can so we can see them. Yeah. You bet. Yeah. So there's
Speaker 2 00:30:21 Sure to limit and um, you know, restoring our broken humanity was really helpful for me and seeing that structure, but you know, there's a cry of, of how long the Lord, you know, how long, uh, will we real power in the house of the Lord for our own gain and to just go through and, and lament these things, but then not end there and that the practice of lament, you know, we lament and then we, we return to what we know. We know the promises of God. We know that God is faithful. We know that God pours out God's grace upon grace, upon grace abundantly. And so we thank God then for the compassion of God, I need a lament centers, us too. I think just a deeper reality and, and keeps us from moving along too quickly. I think that one of the problems with white evangelicalism is we're quick to move on and we, which then kind of send the message of nothing to see here. Everything's fine. Uh, we're good. And the, um, moving past lament is a way of preserving the status quo, uh, preserving, uh, power as is, whereas Lynette takes us through and begins to dismantle power, um, that has had power over us. Um, and it begins to guide us through a process to say, you know, things are not okay. Things haven't been okay, we've heard a lot of people and until we really limit those things and name those things, the status quo is going to be the status quo.
Speaker 1 00:32:06 I'm going to ask you, thank you for that. I'm going to ask you to maybe back up another step. Um, and because you shared this in the book, I I'm, I'm not going to pretend that I will say this. I'm not going to pretend that even though you shared this in the book, that it may not be, um, I understand it, it felt sensitive when you shared it. I'll put it that way. And so I would ask you if you feel comfortable, um, cause I feel like we've got repentance kind of a back from that as limit, but even before that, because sometimes we don't recognize what's wrong. We need to listen. And you share a story in the, where you really listened to. Um, I think she was a colleague in your, one of your seminary classes. Tiffany, I'm trying to think of about that. Um, would you mind sharing your experience there and kind of how that affected you in this, in this process as, as this really is a we moving forward, um, and, and you really share so much of how this has been part of your process. Can you, do you mind sharing that?
Speaker 2 00:33:05 No, not at all. Yeah. In 2009, I sat in a seminary class. Um, uh, I went to Northern theological seminary. You've got a masters of divinity and it was probably one of my first or second classes. It was early on in my, in my journey. And we were talking about racism and one of my friends now, good friend, Tiffany began to talk about her experience. And I raised my hand and I said, but does racism really exist anymore? I mean, thorac Obama is our president and I really started to push back and I remember just kind of watching her just shut down and I was even frustrated. And so then I go through my, you know, a couple more years through seminary and things begin to deconstruct and me and my eyes are open and I was in another class with Tiffany and we were talking about racism.
Speaker 2 00:33:55 And by that point I said, I could see differently. God give me eyes to see the world and the systems and the ways that God saw them. And I was just like, so overcome and so convicted. And I had to do something and I interrupted the class and I raised my hand and Tiffany was across the room. And I said, Tiffany, I don't know if you remember this, but two years ago I interrupted you. And I told you that I didn't think racism exists and I was wrong and here's why I'm wrong. And I went through that and the whole class was just like, kind of stunned, like what is happening here? Um, and she got up from her chair, walked all the way across the room to me, pulled me up from my chair and embraced me and we just wept together. And it was just a powerful healing moment, but my work didn't end there. I wasn't off the hook from a lot of work that I had do. Uh, I am still working on blind spots that I have. Um, I'm still constantly examining my heart and my mind on the ways that I'm complicit on the ways that I'm blind. Um, but that was the beginning of just healing work. And it was, she embodied the way of Jesus to me that day.
Speaker 2 00:35:18 That's powerful. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1 00:35:22 That's really powerful because it, it, um,
Speaker 1 00:35:28 Another way of, of seeing the picture that, um, that as the body, yes. We're, we're familiar. I feel like we're so familiar. Paul's words, you know? Um, but, but I just think about, I don't know, this kind of like just, just hit me, but I'm like, I think about my own, uh, my own parts of my body. Right. And I think something feels different when it hits me on the shin when, you know, as opposed to like when it's, when it's between my fingertips. Right. And I just think like each we're all parts of this same body, but we experience the world in different ways. And it's important that we share those signals with one another. Right, right, right. That's, that's how we make it work. That's part of how we make it work is that, um, we can't ignore, um, other parts of the body and the signals that they're receiving as they experience the world.
Speaker 1 00:36:24 Um, and I think that, that is, to me, that's kind of a picture of you with, with Tiffany is, is yes. God opening your eyes and yes, you, you seeing and reading some other things, but listening to other members of the body and what their experiences are that matters. That makes a difference in how we move forward and write that chapter. Um, I think that was the one on radiant practices. I'm wondering if there's anything else because that chapter just, it, it hit me in kind of a lot of ways. Is there any, like, you know, you, you pick something, is there anything from that section that you just feel like would be really important for people to hear right now?
Speaker 2 00:37:11 Yeah. You know, I think it's all about relationship. Um, are, are some of the most in practices that we need to reclaim, um, and relationship, not through screens, uh, which I know is so hard with COVID right now. Um, but we've, we've got to, you know, really cling to the practice of listening, listening to understand, um, to know, um, to see one another, and this can happen through eating together. I talk a lot about, um, the practice of eating together and how important that is. I remember there was a, um, a woman of color that, um, years ago we were working together and we were having trouble understand one another. And a lot of it, frankly, was my own fragility and we were working through things and I reached out to her, I said, can we begin eating together once a week? And she said, yes.
Speaker 2 00:38:09 Um, and I want to pick the restaurants. And I want us to go to, uh, restaurants that are owned by independent people of color. And so we started going to these restaurants together and, um, just a lot of the, um, brokenness in our relationship that had been, um, very difficult, began to repair and heal time as we would break bread together, as we would hear one another stories. And these are practices that we've got to reclaim. I think so much of the polar is agents because we don't really know one another. Uh, we really don't see one another. We don't, we don't work to understand one another so that we can love one another more deeply.
Speaker 1 00:38:55 Yeah. I just think about like the really practical parts of that. Right. Like even, even, um, some friends of ours that we it's been, it's been a little while since we've seen them, but they, uh, reached out and want to have, want to have dinner with us actually this coming weekend. Um, but my, one of my sons and I both have some dietary issues and it's like really tricky, um, sometimes for someone to host us. Right. Um, and so a lot of times for that reason, I just kind of, we do the hosting at our house, you know, it's just kinda easier, you know? Um, and so she reached out and she said, I know that you guys have some dietary issues. The last time we ate with them, we just ordered something that was easy, but, you know, she said, um, I want, you know, I'd like to make something, you know, and, and, uh, first, you know, I'm kind of like, you know, what I'm feeling all like, you know, I don't want to burden her and I'm feeling a little vulnerable, you know, and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 00:39:49 But, um, I, I, you know, I just put the ball in her court and I said, okay, here you go. This is what, you know, this is what we, this is what we need. And if you are willing to do it, I'm happy to answer any questions. And I would, you know, I'd love that. You just tell me what I can bring, you know, to add to it. And even those, just these really practical kind of logistical things in the practice of eating together, right. Like causes us to discover things about one another and to put ourselves in positions of vulnerability and relationship that, um, that other practices don't that's right. Yes. Right. And I think, I think you're right. It's just sometimes these, um, just sometimes even these things that feel like they're simple. Um, it's almost because they're simple that we can, that we can really engage in just spokes.
Speaker 1 00:40:43 Right. Get to know each other. Yup. Right. Get to know each other and those things. And I'm wondering if you can, um, end with, I don't want to spoil the book, but the chapter about the future was, so it gave me so much hope. I don't know if I said this since we pressed record. Um, but throughout the book, I really just felt like you were calling the church up and you were calling us up and, and, and not necessarily calling us out for what we haven't been, but calling us up to what we can be and what Jesus, like you, like you said, what Jesus sees in us. Right. He believes in us, right. To do this. So can you just give us a little preview about this future, this future abundance that you talk about? Yeah. I think so
Speaker 2 00:41:34 Often, um, so many people who are walking away from the church, see just such a scarce, dim future. And what I want to say to those who have given up on the church who are done, I want to say we serve a God that just wants to give and give and give and give. And we serve a God that wants to pour out God's grace, not scarcely, but abundantly. And I want to say that, yes, we have some hard work to do, but the future doesn't have to be dim that if we can go through this process, if we would be courageous enough to do it, and if we would live in the abundance and the power of God, imagine what kind of future that we can have, can be bright and beautiful. And yes, we need the hard work, but we need, we need all hands on deck. Um, because it matters. It matters. The church matters. And I still believe after all the pain, and this is why I wrote the book, um, after all the pain that I've gone through, that others have gone through, I still believe in the church.
Speaker 1 00:43:00 Can you say that again? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:03 Yeah. After all the pain, after all, the ways that my family that is the church has hurt me, has hurt my brothers and sisters of color and all the ways that we have participated in corporate and systemics and my heart still bleeds for the church. I still believe in the church. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:43:33 I do too. Yeah, I need to. And um, and another thing I believe is that this book is a gift to the church.
Speaker 2 00:43:44 Wow. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:43:45 It is, it is just a gift because I'm not alone. When I'm saying, I felt I have felt disheartened and said, where do we go from here? Um, and I feel like you, um, were able to speak so much to that question, um, with a pastor's heart, um, uh, where do we go from here, church friends. This is where we are, and this is where this is who we can be in Jesus. Um, here are some practical ways to get us there.
Speaker 2 00:44:20 And then where
Speaker 1 00:44:21 Can we get it? Where can we get it? And where can we, um, and where can we connect, uh, with you otherwise? Yeah, so the book technically
Speaker 2 00:44:32 Releases February 16th, but I'm hearing from people that folks who are ordering it directly from InterVarsity press, they're getting it in the mail now. Nice. Otherwise, if you, I mean, it's from all the major retailers, Amazon target, Barnes and noble, um, every major bookstore, you can find it online. Um, if you, if you have any trouble, you can, um, find me on social media. There's links everywhere on my Twitter or my webpage, Tara Beth leech.com. Um, Instagram. So it's up there. It's coming soon. So excited.
Speaker 1 00:45:04 Oh, I'm so excited. I know. I almost forgot. I'm like this will air actually, before it comes out. Yeah. I told you I was reading the PDF copy and I'm like, ah,
Speaker 2 00:45:14 I went, it, there's not enough. There's no pages for
Speaker 1 00:45:16 Me to dog here and I need to dog your almost every one. So this was,
Speaker 2 00:45:19 So can I tell you about an exciting event? That's not live yet. It's going to go live tomorrow. Absolutely. So on the day of the launch, um, we are bringing in, um, we're going to do like a little hour and a half little mini conference event to launch the book. And, uh, we're bringing in pastors and theologians, um, who see the brokenness in the church, but also, still believe in the church. And so we are going to have, um, Mike Frost, we're going to have Christine Kane. We're going to have Sean Palmer. We're going to have, um, Oh my goodness. Uh, Sharon Hottie Miller, Cheryl Bridges, Johns. We're going to have Ashley Island. We're going to have Glen Paki. Um, I know I'm probably forgetting someone. And then, so we're going to talk about our limits for the church. And we're going to talk about our hopefulness for the church.
Speaker 2 00:46:04 And then we have a worship band that wrote a song called radiant church. That's going to be debuted that night. We had tons of giveaways for anyone that pre-ordered the book, um, Northern seminary is, is going to offer discounts and classes. We're going to have a grand prize drawing of tons of books. Um, we are, there's just going to be all sorts of fun stuff, but I think what matters is the conversation that we all want to have about the church. So that's going to be February 16th at 7:00 PM. Central and registration will be on my website.
Speaker 1 00:46:33 Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Yeah. So this episode will air. I believe it's set to air the week before that. And so I will put all of that, a direct link to that when it goes live, I will, I will watch for your website and we'll put a direct link to that, um, in the show notes so that you guys, all you'll have to do is click and you can register for that event. That sounds amazing. Oh my goodness. That sounds, that sounds incredible. I have, I was like listening through and when you said Ashley Island, you probably watched my face light up. I love her book was incredible and credible. She was just amazing to speak with that. That was one of those books that we were talking about before. I was like, how did you time this? Like the Lord, just boom. He just put this on the map for, for this exact time. So that's amazing. That sounds really, really awesome. Terrible. Thank you so much. Um, thank you so much for being with me today. I thank you for having me Alexa, like I'm still processing it and we probably will be, but, um, I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 00:47:30 Thank you so much. You bet. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 0 00:47:34 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B SETI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
