Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis besetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. All right.
Speaker 1 00:00:40 So today in mid-March I am recording this conversation with Tish Harrison Warren that was actually originally scheduled for the week of the deep freeze in Texas. And what was funny is that, well, this is not funny, but Tish was actually moving with her family kind of during that same timeframe. And while I was like really excited to speak with her, I was also slightly relieved because I thought, Oh dear, I don't even know if we'll have a light to record a podcast during this week in Texas. So welcome to Texas dish. This is like, I mean, this is like a hearty welcome. Yeah. I was saying I'm I'm from here. I'm from Texas grew up here. I'm actually seventh generation texted on both sides of my family. So how he protects then you have super Texas. Yeah. But, uh, but we went away and we have come back. So yeah. Well I'm, I'm glad that are you that you're back. I mean, Texas is not home for us. I used to say, you know, we're not from Texas, but we got here as quickly as we could, but this was not the month. I'm not really feeling it this month.
Speaker 1 00:02:01 Ask me again next year. Maybe I'll feel a little bit, a little bit more, uh, super Texan, uh, next year. But what was actually, um, funny for me about this book, this I never ever, ever take podcast books that I'm reading for the podcast to bed with me. Like I just, you know, I, I read during the day typically and at night is kind of when I'll, I'll dive into something that's a little bit, uh, less consequential, but I thought, okay, a book entitled prayer in the night. Why not? Right. I'll just put it on my nightstand and I'll start reading this at night and it was beautiful and I'm so thankful I did. And then the storm hit and I was actually reading your book by flashlight and by candle light during the Texas freeze. And I don't know that environment just kind of lit it up in a different way for me, but, um, it was entirely beautiful. Um, so thank you for this. It's, it's entirely beautiful. The entire title is a prayer in the night for those who work or watch or weep. So can you maybe do a good place to start is just to say, where did this book come from for you?
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Yeah. Um, so in 2017, I, um, had a really hard year. We moved across the country my a week after we got there. My father passed away. Um, I had a ticket booked for his to come back for his birthday and I used it to fly back for his funeral. And then the day after I S I spoke at his funeral, what I found out I was pregnant, which we, we had really wanted to have a third child. So this was very happy news. And we, um, but three weeks later I had a miscarriage, uh, kind of medically dramatic in medical dramatic fashion. So it's just where the book picks up. That's I start there and then in the prologue, and then, um, and then, uh, we got, we lost that baby. We got pregnant again. I had had a long, hard pregnancy and we lost another baby, a son, um, in our early, in our second trimester.
Speaker 2 00:04:38 So, okay. Yeah. So it was a hard six months. It was, um, it's not, and unheard of, like, it, wasn't, there's, there's a lot of books that are about kind of like atrocity, um, and trauma, and those are good and important books. In fact, I recommend a few of them in, um, footnotes of my books, um, losing a child or, or, um, having, uh, like losing a spouse in a really traumatic way or having a terminal illness. So, um, my, my suffering is much more ordinary, um, which when I started writing the book, I thought, I mean, I told God, like, I can't write this book. I can't write a book about grief. Like I haven't haven't had enough grief. Right. And I think, but for me it became kind of a feature, not a bug that I wanted to write about and wanted to say that grief isn't the special property of a group of people.
Speaker 2 00:05:49 Who've had a particularly, um, hard life for devastating circumstance that all of us, all of us, um, carry grief around in all of our lives. And, um, so I wanted to give permission for, to regular folks, um, to, to acknowledge their own kind of ordinary suffering and their own life. Um, yeah. So, um, so it sort of grew from that. It, I didn't write it. It was, um, probably a year and a half, all of, after all of that went down and I wrote the book, it wasn't started writing another book and, um, but I could, once I had this idea could not get away from it. So, um, so essentially when, when the idea occurred to me, um, okay, so during this time when things were rough, it became really hard for me to pray. I talk about this in the book, in the, in the midst of having, um, yeah, I, I was a priest.
Speaker 2 00:06:56 I was a pastor. I had a seminary degree, but I was struggling to pray because I was struggling with, um, all, it was too many questions to bring to God, but it was also, um, I also really was struggling with how do I trust God in the middle of this? And, um, so w w um, what sort of led me back to prayer is walking into the prayers of the church, walking into the prayers that I've received. Um, and one of those was compliments. So once I had kind of the idea of, uh, of forming the book around this particular keep, watch, dear Lord prayer. Um, I just, I, I didn't really want to write this book, but I, it just kept, I just kept coming back to me. I said, I've said elsewhere, like a cat that you feed and it just keeps showing up.
Speaker 2 00:07:58 And, um, and what was, it was the idea that appealed to me is this was a PR using this prayer was, was a way that I could get into these larger questions of how can God be good and powerful and bad things regularly happen in the world. And I wanted, I needed for my own faith some way, sort of into those questions and into, uh, not, not just sort of the philosophical conundrum with those questions, like the emotion, the lived experience, the crisis of those questions. And, um, this prayer felt like, um, it was honestly, it was something like a scuba diver attaches themselves to a distancing line so that they can go into these kinds of dark scarier places, um, and make it back to the surface. It felt like that for me, it felt like, okay, here's a way in to these ideas. Um, and I think I needed that for my own might. I mean, this book has made me trust in the love of God, more writing this book and that process. So, um, yeah, I think I needed, I needed a form and a structure and about two years of my life and about 80,000 words that I whittled down to 40,000 to kind of get into these questions, um, with God. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:44 So there's like so many questions swimming in my head right now, but the first, when you were talking about needing not being able to pray and, and needing, you know, kind of going back to the prayers of the church, there's a, there's a picture. And I could, you know, see it in my head when I was reading the book, when you talk about, um, because your husband's a priest as well, is that right? Yeah. And you talk about having these, like books of prayer in your house kind of scattered about as if they're coasters. Right. And I can, I can kind of envision, you know, kind of envision this, but, um, I would say for, for those of us in the church who, um, like written prayers or historical prayers are prayers of the, of the church fathers for, for, for those of us who that isn't our tradition. Can you just kind of like, say what that, um, part of maybe part of what that looks like, or just kind of take that wherever you want to go, you can talk about, you know, the history of it. I mean, I hope we will dig into what that meant for you personally, but before we get there, um, just to have these, just to have these kinds of written prayers for some people who aren't, that's not necessarily what their prayer language.
Speaker 2 00:11:07 Yeah. Well, it wasn't, I didn't grow up at all with any written prayers. Like, so this is, this is not part of the tradition I grew up in either. Um, it's new to me. So, um, so I mean, if you would've asked me when I was 18, what prayer was, it was this very specific and kind of singular thing, which would just peep us talking to God. That was my understanding of prayer beginning to end kind of. And, um, so, uh, the idea that there were different ways to pray was, would have been puzzling certainly me as, as a youth. Um, and, and I want to be clear, like I pray every day with what would be called freeform or extemporaneous prayer, like all the time, uh, this morning, even. So, um, I certainly the, the book in no way is like a criticism of, of kind of like regular angelical prayer. Um, but I do think that for, I mean, just a huge gift of me growing and
Speaker 3 00:12:25 I'm in prayer and growing in knowing God
Speaker 2 00:12:29 And my spiritual life has been receiving other forms of prayer, um, and written prayer in particular, since we're talking about that written prayer, or it's called it can also be received prayer cause it's not, you know, it wasn't originally written, it was memorized right from prayers of others. So, um, is, is a long, long has a very long history in the church. Um, we, of course there's, there's examples of this in Jewish faith, right, right. Reciting, um, uh, prayers, but particularly in the early church, um, the first prereq of the church was the Salter was the songs and they would pray the songs, um, together. And, um, and still to this day in Catholic and Anglican and Lutheran more liturgical prayer services, we have a lot of songs that's kind of focused around the songs. Um, but there's also other written prayers. And, uh, and it was pretty, I mean, it's a very common practice to have patterns of prayer. You see this in the scripture, right? When, um, the disciples come to Jesus, who was their rabbi, their teacher and said, teach us to pray. And he didn't say like, Hey, just talk to God, share with him, what's on your heart. You know, he gave them this pattern when you pray, pray like this, and it's the Lord's prayer. Right. Um, so for me, um, I first, it was kind of in my twenties, I think that I first, um, sort of encountered the practice of written prayer. And, um,
Speaker 3 00:14:14 I was,
Speaker 2 00:14:15 I know, I mean, I've had friends, I say this in the book by a friend who came to our Anglican church and was like really, um, skeptical of it. Uh, she, she, she tends to be skeptical of, uh, new things, but she, um, she was like, what, like with this, why would you pray other people's prayers? Right. Um,
Speaker 3 00:14:39 I wasn't in my twenties
Speaker 2 00:14:42 Skeptical of it by the time that I encountered it. I think it was
Speaker 3 00:14:45 Pretty high. I was interested, very interested, theologically, very
Speaker 2 00:14:52 Curious and very Anglican curious in particular at that point. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I, um,
Speaker 3 00:15:03 I
Speaker 2 00:15:03 Started, uh, it, it was during a season of my life that again, in my twenties, this was before this book was written, but it was just a hard season. I had a broken friendship and, um, was in certainly in the middle of like, what
Speaker 3 00:15:19 Is good? What
Speaker 2 00:15:21 Are we, what am I going to do with my life? What am I, you know, the 20 something sort of like, where am I going? What am I doing? Uh, was newly married. That was a shock in many ways. And, uh, so, um,
Speaker 3 00:15:36 Aye,
Speaker 2 00:15:38 I, again, it felt like my word, I was so wordy in my prayers and it felt like my words kind of ran dry or that they weren't,
Speaker 3 00:15:49 They weren't
Speaker 2 00:15:50 Sufficient for the longing in my heart. And so, um, receiving the prayers of the church, the Gloria, the Lord's prayer, but also I fell into a book of, you know, the book of common prayer and receiving prayers from that there was a book circulating for Puritan prayers at the time called the Valley of vision. Um, but, and then, and then I had, I found the Phyllis tickle prayer book, um, that I don't even remember what it was, but it was, I think it was like it was prayers for the seasons. Um, I think that she did. So I just started kind of experimenting with these other ways of prayer, receive prayer, also pray in my body. I started kneeling for prayer that first time in my life, um, uh, prayers of silence. So it, it basically felt like my words ran dry and it opened me up to these kinds of other ways of prayer and the way I put it in the book and the way I experience it is it feels like these prayers become like a life raft that I can just throw myself on and they will carry me to Jesus and I don't have to perform, I don't have to show, I don't have to like get to a certain emotional place, get to a certain strength of belief.
Speaker 2 00:17:07 I can, I can want to want to want to pray and throw myself on these prayers. And they, um,
Speaker 3 00:17:16 They carrying me.
Speaker 2 00:17:17 Right. And, um, so these prayers have become important to me, partly for that, because when I don't have words, they give words, but also because they form me and they teach me, um, that, um, there's a saying in the church, the law of prayers, the law of belief that, so the, the way we pray tends to, um, shape the way we believe and think about our faith. And so, um, prayer becomes a way then to receive practices from the historic church, from Christians that came before us. And of course, even from Jesus himself praying the Lord's prayer, but also the songs, um, cause Jesus so frequently and pray the songs, um, that we, um, prayer becomes a way to be shaped and discipled to be shaped and formed by these folks who came before us. Um, so yeah, those are some of the ways that that's looked in my own life. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:22 That was one of the w what you ended with there was, was one of the things that stood out to me the most is this, um, idea of prayer forming us. And, and one of the examples you use is of, um, different ways of prayer being like, um, for a painter, like different types of paint or canvas or color or light you say. And, and, um, and my mother-in-law was an artist and she was extremely talented and she used all sorts of different mediums. Right. But like the different, the different, um, you know, they capture different moods of hers or, you know, what she was trying to communicate, um, through her art, through these different, um, three different ways of, of expressing herself. But with the forming, I can picture that as, as the expression of her, but also, um, I love what you added about, like, when we read these things, them being the law of belief.
Speaker 1 00:19:32 Right. So I'm like, we know to pray for God's kingdom to come because Jesus prayed that, like, that's not something I would have ever come up with on my own, but now I believe that his kingdom is coming because he's taught me that through prayer, through someone else's prayer, right. Like through his prayer. And so I just think like what a beautiful way to, um, kind of capture in part this, like community of the saints, this like universal community of saints who have had different experiences in different have been formed in different ways, too. I love that we're to receive their prayers, um, and use them as our own. They are formative. And I just, I just think that I had never really, I had never really placed that in that way before that these, that these prayers could be, um, so formative.
Speaker 2 00:20:33 Yeah. Um, they, it really, it really is. I mean, I think about, um, learning to pray, like learning, to read that, um, I'm teaching my daughter to read she's homeschooled this year and, um, she's getting really good. Uh, but it, I mean, to read kind of requires someone who's further in the craft who is further into reading, who knows how to read, to sit with you and kind of tutor you. And I think about that, that, um, I think about how, um, learning these prayers is kind of like the historic church kind of sitting with me and tutoring me. And I mean, some of these in, in the Anglican prayer book, um, there's prayers from the third century from John Chrysostom. I mean, it's crazy that like this prayer has endured over centuries and centuries of Christians praying it. Um, when you start to think of how many thousands upon millions of people have prayed this prayer, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 00:21:37 And so you, I think I, these folks are sitting with me and teaching me things about God I wouldn't have gotten to on my own. And so it's, um, again, like I love every day, pray just like my own prayers to God, but I've realized I, those prayers are different even because I've spent time. Yes. Um, with, with other people's prayers, like learning the prayers of the church, um, a really pragmatic example that I use a lot with this is I never prayed for government officials. I know scripture says too, but I had the hardest time, partly because I just honestly don't think about it a ton. And when I do I'm really, I have a lot of like cynicism and ire around it. It's hard for me not to be like help the government not be complete idiots. Right. Like, so it can, um, and so book of common prayer, but, um, in English, and literally we pray, we pray for justice.
Speaker 2 00:22:42 We pray for our officials by name, whether we like them or not, or voted for them or not. Um, and, uh, which we pray, we mentioned their first name. So it's so like, um, it's, uh, it's so leveling, we pray for Donald when Donald Trump was president, we pray for Joe now. And so you remember, these are like real human beings that God has made in his image, however much. I think they are, you know, um, not, not great leaders or whatever, if I think they're great leaders or not great leaders that that's very leveling. And, but beyond that, we pray for justice. We pray for the marginalized. We pray for those who are oppressed. And so, um, I just don't think, like, I don't think on your average week, I would remember I would do it. And so it was really picking up this prayer of the church that led me to actually do what scripture asks me to do, um, which is to, to pray for these folks and to do so, um, with a spirit that's yearning for truth and justice and, um, injustice and peace and, uh, and not just kind of, um, angry at the other political side.
Speaker 2 00:24:01 Right. Or just vitriol. So, I mean, that's a very pragmatic example of a way that, that prayer has shaped me. But so, yeah, so I, I think about it again, like I said, like reading, learning from other folks, and one of the things about reading is reading changes your brain, like the ability to read it changes the way you see the world changes the way you think about the world and it, it, it forms you. Um, and even like it forms new synopses in your brain to, to, to be able to learn this skill. I'm watching this happen with my daughter. Um, and it, and it forms the way you think shapes the way you think. And so it's the same thing. I mean, if prayer is if learning prayers like learning to read in ways that, um, it it's forming our it's forming our minds, it's forming our thoughts.
Speaker 2 00:24:57 Lauren winner has this completely beautiful story and Ms. Book, mud house Sabbath. Um, and I didn't quote it. I didn't, it didn't make my book, but, um, she talks about sitting by, uh, her husband at the times, um, grandfather who had dementia. And, um, couldn't remember, you know, his grandchildren's names couldn't remember what day it was, what year it was, but he sat next to her in church and he recited the Lord's prayer verbatim. And that somehow that had that prayer had worked its way more deeply even then the month or the year or the name of his children. Um, so there is something of prayer that works its way into us and changes even, even our brains and the way they are formed. Um, and I just think that's beautiful and also super fascinating. Like that's really interesting to me.
Speaker 1 00:26:03 No, it, it is. And this, um, I want to get to this, to this compline because it, you introduce a kind of a theological concept, um, that we may not know by name, but we know because it's the question that everybody has asked at some point, and that is God being good, right. This, the Odyssey of God being good in the midst of this, um, in the midst of evil. And one of the things that kind of helped me and, and, you know, and, and, and it's coming up because you're talking about justice and the marginalized and, um, illness, right. And, and, and, and sickness and forgetting about, about our loved ones and, you know, all of these things that are just results of the fall, right. And we have to, we have to live inside of them and trust that God is good inside of, of, of this environment where we live.
Speaker 1 00:27:15 But that prayer is also a way of kind of wrestling with that idea. And, and one of the things that, um, I don't remember exactly, kind of the quote, but just like the, the idea that I drew from this from you was basically, this is something that I'll go my take away was this is something that we shouldn't, um, necessarily seek for an answer. Like, we want to be good at wrestling. You know, we want to wrestle through this, but there's not a good, there's not a right answer to, um, to this kind of theological concept of, of God in, uh, God's goodness, in evil. Can you just kind of like in a more eloquent way, can you like S um, can you like take us through some of that?
Speaker 2 00:28:17 Very, yeah, I, that was kind of something I came to, I guess, in the process of writing this book, because I want to be clear, like there's a lot of really good theologies out there of the Odyssey, which is the Odyssey is naming the problem of evil. It's sometimes called the question of how can God be all good and all, all powerful and bad things still happen in the world. Um, and there's lots of really great, um, the Odysseys, um, of all sorts, I mean, but, uh, there's a book called the, um, enduring God's absence. And during the absence of God, I'm going to it's Joseph Minnick. Anyway, it's a great book, obviously CS Lewis wrote on this, um, and, uh, um, I mean the problem pain, but also grief observed as such a practical, um, great response to this. So there's lots of good books out there to read on this.
Speaker 2 00:29:20 Um, but I also think that in some ways, it, I think that there can be a tendency to think this is a cognitive question. Like we are trying to solve a math equation. And so what we need to give is this cognitive response. Um, and I just think that deeply misunderstands what is happening in terms of, of, in terms of what's actually behind this question, and also just the spiritual formation in it. I mean, this, the honesty is, um, uh, it touches on mystery, right? I mean, the church could have just solved. This could have, you know, written another epistle, you know, and just made this far more systematic. Um, and they didn't, you know, and they didn't in the midst of war and plague and being killed for their faith. Um, so I think there is something here that is, um, where are we are drawn to silence, but because the mystery of it, because there really is sort of a limit to human knowledge in the midst of this.
Speaker 2 00:30:33 But I also think we don't just want, we don't just want a cognitive answer. We want God to act, we want things to be set, right. What this is, is a longing for, um, wholeness, it's a law, it's a longing for justice. It's a longing for things to be made well. And, um, I just don't think there's any answer that's going to solve or quench that longing. And I don't think there should be, I think the longing is right. And, um, and I, I, I just think if anything, we need to add fuel to the fire of the longing for things to be whole not stamp it out with. Um, or as a reviewer said, put a, put a cork into our questions with theology. Um, so, uh, um, and yet the question is then, well then if, if we live in this posture of longing and if we live in this mystery, how do we continue in the way of faith?
Speaker 2 00:31:34 I mean, how do we not just Chuck the whole thing? Um, and so for that became the question for me is how, how do I continue to trust God? How do I continue to walk with God? Um, in the midst of, of, of questions, myths of doubt in the midst of, um, not, um, of, of not knowing how to trust, but also knowing that there's just answers that I'm, there's things that I just might not understand. I might not ever get a re uh, emotionally satisfying reason why I lost two babies. Like, I don't think that there's, and I really resist. I mean, I know there's folks that are like, well, like let's name every good thing that came out of that. And I think there's something to that. I mean, talk in the book about watching for God's work, even in the midst of darkness.
Speaker 2 00:32:34 Um, but it also, man, it makes human life, um, so such a means to an end. Right. And I, I'm just, I'm skeptical of that. I think, um, I really do just think there will, you know, what, why is there hunger in the world? Why do, why are there kids that die an hour after they were born? And I just, I don't want to go down the rabbit trail of, we have to defend God's reputation by coming up with little, little reasons or little excuses for God. Um, uh, I think, um, I think instead I want, um, to sit with God and the agony of that and to meet Jesus and the agony of that and, um, to meet Jesus in his own sufferings. Um, so, so that becomes, how do we do that and that, and that becomes all about kind of spiritual formation and practices, um, that bring us into these doctrines.
Speaker 2 00:33:45 I'm not opposed to doctrine at all. In fact, I talk in the book about when everything else falls apart, kind of what we, what we have to stand on is what we believe about God in the world. But, um, but they can't be these sort of answers that, um, throw a big wet blanket on are the deep fiery passions we have for things to be made whole, um, they, it has to be, um, we instead have to encounter these doctrines as hope in the midst of real darkness in the midst of real longing in the midst of exile. Um, so, so what this book became is more or less like a practical theodicy. Um, I actually pitched that as a subtitle for the book at one point and IVP was like, no, that's really esoteric and no one will get that, but, but I wanted it to be kind of a, a really pragmatic kind of approach to these questions. Um,
Speaker 1 00:34:48 Yeah, no, you like, you like read my mind as you were talking because that's the next place I was going to go is is that doctrine that, that you bring up, right? Like, like what we, what we believe about God and it, and even just listening to you just now, like I grew up in a tradition where we're doctrine was very kind of black and white yes or no. Um, it's either right or wrong and, and the goal is kind of, uh, to be right. And, um, and I think that there are, of course things inside of the Christian faith that we can't give up. Right. There are those things that are solid enough to say, yes, you know, like those, those are the creed kinds of, of things, but even just listening to you just now, it's like, I'm asking these questions of what do we believe about God's character, you know, um, that we can trust him and, and w and I love how you put it, cause you, you said when in our most human and in our most vulnerable, those things really matter. Um, and I think they matter because, um, kind of like you were talking about earlier, like, you know, being able to kind of, kind of rest on those prayers and let them take you to God. But if, if our doctrine, um, is not one that really reflects God's faithful character, I think that in our most vulnerable, and maybe desperate, sometimes we can land on a different raft and we can drift far away from him.
Speaker 2 00:36:38 Yeah, absolutely. To a place that
Speaker 1 00:36:40 Doesn't, that doesn't bring us to him and make sense for us.
Speaker 2 00:36:44 Totally. They're just as no in the end, it really is truth that sets you free and there's not a replacement for that. So we have to live according to reality, according to truth. And, um, uh, so that's, I wanted to say that and I want to say, um, what, what else did I want to say? Uh, Oh yeah. It's interesting. Cause I do think there are traditions. I've been in some where it's, um, it's all about kind of getting the doctor right. And knowing things. And we know more than the other people that don't know. And, um, and I actually don't think that I, I don't think that, um, is a very holistic Christian life. I mean, I can tell you part of the reason I'm so interested in spiritual formation is because, um, I was in seminary. My husband was in seminary. My husband has a PhD in church history.
Speaker 2 00:37:43 We were reformed. We cared a lot about, we read theology books in our spare time. We, um, knew Greek and Hebrew. So in terms of like doctrine, man, we were like drinking deep. We were drinking deep, deep Wells. And at the same time, we were like fighting like cats and dogs, like all this. And we had all this emotional growth we needed to go through. We were newly married. We had all of this repenting we had to learn to do, um, and this like re recovering wholeness and, uh, learning Christian practices of prayer and shaping our imagination, which wasn't at all shaped by the gospel. Um, even though our doctrine was so I just realized like, man, this is not enough, right. This is, this is like, I need more than kind of just like these ideas in my head that just sort of, I, it was somehow, they were supposed to sort of magically transform us, but it didn't.
Speaker 2 00:38:46 Um, and yet I've seen and yet, because I think a lot of us have grown up sort of around that, um, in different ways, but whatever that looks like, whether you grew up a fundamentalist or like super, super reformed or like whatever your deal was, um, I think there's been a reaction the other way where, um, and Christian practices have become really a focus. Um, James' case Smith's work has been a big part of this. My book, literally my first book liturgy of the ordinary was part of this. Um, and I'm all for that. Actually. There's been a I'm I, this is I think something that's generally good. Um, uh, there's a renewed focus on practices and the Christian faith on, on, um, how we live this stuff out on an average Wednesday. And, um, and that's great. Good all to the good, especially in evangelicalism, deeply, deeply needed.
Speaker 2 00:39:46 We kind of forgot that we have like bodies and imaginations for about 50 years, 50, 70 years. So we need all of that. Um, and yet, uh, um, Lauren winner wrote a book. I forget what it's called, but it's kind of pushing back on this and, um, I can look it up, uh, about the, um, kind of basically saying practices also have been twisted. Right. Um, uh, practices have been, um, used, uh, like she talks about, um, ways that even, even things as sacred as like the Eucharist were used, um, uh, it's called the dangers of Christian practice. Uh, that's what it's called. Um, and it's, um, about how these, even the sacrament of the church have been used at times as weapons of violence, like ways to hurt and exclude even, even violently. Right. Um, and, uh, I heard a lecture, uh, kind of talking about this and I just wanted to say maybe the problem here is at practices per se.
Speaker 2 00:41:06 Um, and this pushes back just, uh, I, I like Lauren's book, but I just, it pushes back a little, but that we just, just really, really doctrine and practice have to be 100%, um, merged and embraced together. There's just, there's no Christian doctrine good enough where we're not going to need to know how this cashes out through the way we use our bodies and time and, and prayer life and imaginations and silence. Um, but there's no Christian practice. Good enough. That's going to get us away from these kinds of thorny issues of doctrine. And we've got to just wrestle with of like, who is God, who are we what's the nature of man is sin thing. Is that a real thing? If so, what do we do about it? What causes it? Like what, so these, um, what's, what's the chief end of man. What are we here for?
Speaker 2 00:42:05 Um, all of these are important, important questions. What's the church, um, what's redemption. What, what is death what's death mean? What does life mean? Like all these questions that we can't get away from, and we're not going to have like a cool enough liturgy to avoid these questions. So I just see both, I mean, I feel like I see Christian communities where it's like, let's just get, let's just get let's memorize the, um, catechism enough. And we'll just sort of magically have disciples of Jesus that, but in reaction to that, and particularly maybe an extra angelical spaces and that sort of thing there, there's now this counter tendency of like, man, we're not going to talk about hard stuff, sin and sex, and, you know, cultural issues that are, that are all kinds of controversial and we're not going to deal with like, um, like God in particular and who God is or who God's not, we just want like beauty and sense of spirituality and ritual and it just ends up very shallow.
Speaker 2 00:43:20 Um, and so I guess this bikeway way, whole project that you're like hitting on is that I think we just, um, for whatever reason throughout church history, there's been kind of a, uh, ping ponging back and forth between doctrine and practice and both are dehumanizing, um, because we are people that are made up of, of rational minds and hearts and imaginations and wills. And, um, we, it, God just like absolutely refuses to let us, um, disintegrate those. Uh, and so it's this constant call back to faith and practice together to Orthodox orthodoxy and orthopraxy to, um, bringing these things together in her life. Yeah. I mean, it's, I kind of started preaching there, but I know
Speaker 1 00:44:15 Well thankful for it. I'm, I'm thankful for it actually, part of it was kind of funny. Um, some of that with the, uh, the practices we actually touched on, uh, at the end of my class last night, I mentioned earlier, I'm taking a class with Matt back and we, um, kind of touched on that. And, and I kind of, I kind of bucked, you know, back because it's like these beautiful practices you're right. Like some, some of them have been used for just completely detrimental and devastating things, um, you know, in the church. Um, and so that, that was kind of funny to me, but, but the more that you preached, the more I, I kept thinking about, you know, this, this ping pong that you're talking about and, you know, I think, yeah, like we, we did, we forgot we had bodies and imaginations, and then there's, there's these different ping pong back and forth.
Speaker 1 00:45:06 And a while back, it was years ago, um, uh, it was listening to someone speak, uh, giving some sermons about how he just really saw God's majesty in, um, the, like the universe kind of right. The bigness of, of God and the things that he created in the stars and the galaxies and, you know, those kinds of things just fascinated him. And, and he really saw God's majesty in that. And that actually didn't resonate with me. Um, what resonated with me were exactly the opposite of that. The very, very, very tiny things that I can't see or that I could barely see, but I don't pay attention to. So, you know, the ant crawling around in the potted plant and things like this, and I started asking God to draw my attention to those things that fascinated me, that I, that were very, very small.
Speaker 1 00:46:12 And, and so I started noticing them more and, and those just really, it really just gave me so much joy and I was having a really good time praising the Lord over those things. And then it was as if one day I felt like the Holy spirit was trying to communicate to me something to this effect. Like if you think that stuff is cool or beautiful or whatever, I'm going to one up you, because of all of the things that you can't see. And, and part of what the connection was for me, when you were talking is that this, this kind of ping ponging back and forth between practice and liturgy and doctrine and all of that, I'm like part of the reason that it feels unstable. I think to me, in a way is, is because there are these spiritual kind of mystical realities, right.
Speaker 1 00:47:08 That we like, can't see to save our lives, right? Like when we're baptized or when we take communion like this, this bond that we have with the universal church, or the fact that the church fathers are teaching you after their death, like, it's just this weird, you know? And, and I don't know if that makes sense, but part of it is like we want so badly, I think, to know, and to put our finger on it and to, and to see, but often I, I think back to that time, that season, and I think, yeah, but, but part of this cool mystery is there's just so much stuff that I'm, I'm actually just incapable of seeing. And I will, I can't ever put my finger on, on that particular thing to own that, um, because I can't even, I can't even see it.
Speaker 2 00:48:03 Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, that was kind of a complete
Speaker 1 00:48:09 Kind of thing who knows maybe I'll have Seth edit that out, but it was just like, I mean,
Speaker 2 00:48:14 That, that is doing a lot of editing don't make them do anymore. Um, no, that was great. Let's maybe we can kind of,
Speaker 1 00:48:28 Maybe you can bring us home, um, here, and this is sometimes Seth, Hey, shout out to the husband today. Sometimes he calls me a Debbie downer. Um, but it, you know, my personality, I just kind of, um, sometimes I just kind of think on these, um, on these kinds of things, but I have written in my notes, um, bless the dying, soothe, the suffering. Um, and I want you to take it, I'm going to mention one of the things that, that, um, stood out to me when I was reading this book in the dark, um, was that years ago, um, when our babies were little, I was in a moms group that just saved me in so many ways and gave me, gave me things to do with my babies when they were little. And, and we had a, we had speakers come and talk and we would have, you know, brunch together and things like that.
Speaker 1 00:49:27 But one day one of the speakers came from one of the anti-trafficking, uh, uh, organizations here in Houston and she came and spoke and, um, you know, shared statistics with us and stories of survivors and, and, and all of these gritty, beautiful, um, things that their, that their ministry was involved in. And, and you know, how we could pray for them and support them. And one of the things that she said that I hope I never forget is she's talking to a bunch of young moms with, you know, I mean, we we've got, some of us had, you know, children on the breast as she was speaking. Right. And she said, one of the things you can do is when, as young moms you're up in the middle of the night and when nursing, or when you're changing diapers, or when you're trying to get your baby to calm down again, think about the situations and the women that I've told you about today and pray for them in the middle of the night, because all over the city, there are young women like you who don't want to be awake and aren't awake because they're tending to babies.
Speaker 1 00:50:58 Right. Um, they're awake because they've been trafficked and they're doing what is required of them in that moment. And it was so heavy. Um, and it is so heavy and I think it should be so heavy for these, you know, young moms or we're just really trying to, trying to make it, um, you know, but it was just this very, very, I don't even want to say reminder cause I'd never thought of it before, but it was just this very clear word, um, right. About, um, about telling us about things that are happening in the world that we can't see about things that are happening, that we know nothing about, but that our prayers, um, even in those times make a difference. And so that was kind of one of the things that I carried with me as I was reading your book, that's one of the things I brought with me. And, um, and I ugly cried a lot. Um, during your book, especially kind of in these parts when you're talking about, um, those phrases bless the dying, soothe, the suffering. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 00:52:17 Yeah. Um, well, so in response, I want to respond to what you, that story you were telling about. I realized, so, so amongst prey, like terse sex, non like every, about every three hours, right. And then, and then there's a, there's a break more to sleep in the night, but then they get up in the middle of the night, even in pray. And so w when I first had, uh, our kids, I realized that I was nursing about every three hours when they were young. And so I, it started in my mind, I was like, okay, this, this is my monastic cell. Like the, the monks go every three hours to their place of prayer. And I go every three hours to my rocking chair. And with this little, with these little girl, this little girl, and then this other little girl, and then this little boy.
Speaker 2 00:53:12 Um, and so, um, so yeah, so I started thinking of those times of nursing and I have two, I have one child that slept, I have two children that don't sleep. Um, so I was up a lot at night. I was up a lot. Yes. Um, uh, yeah. Um, so we joke that we're will, will our first child slept. And so she will get the most and we'll leave her the most in the will. But, um, and, but anyway, so I began with such a, it's such a, it is such a grueling, even physically man, that's such a grueling time. So I started to try to think of that every three hours as my kind of monastic, that's my monastic practice as a, and as a, as a mother. Um, and so using those times of prayer as prayer became really important to me, um, this is faded because, you know, my son is 16 months now, so he's, he's still nurses, but it takes them about five minutes, you know, instead of, uh, when they're little, it takes longer.
Speaker 2 00:54:28 So he's, uh, he's in and out and it's, and he he's, it's not every three hours, but, um, but I've always thought, I've always thought that was interesting. That just kind of naturally it ends up about the same rhythm as the Nastic prayer. Um, it's such a picture right. Of the, of these different vocations that have the same kind of shared, um, called prayer and, and even sometimes the exact same hours of prayer. Um, so, uh, yeah, it, and I just really, I think, um, we live in a hyper activistic age, right. And, um, and angelical ism can play into this. Sometimes been dealt with them can be real quiet to stick, and let's just pray and not do anything about the world, but I've, Angelicals 10, at least my sort tend to be pretty activistic. And Mark galley said the best part of angelical ism is it's activism.
Speaker 2 00:55:29 And the worst part of evangelicalism is it's activism. Meaning we can be so activistic that we, um, we forget about, um, that it is God, not us. That's going to save the world. Right. So I think this is in no way. In fact, I think the evangelicalism, um, work around human trafficking has been one of the most encouraging things in, um, that kind of public Christian ethics in the last 20 years. But, um, but I also think, especially on Twitter and that kind of thing, it can sort of be like, um, it, well, it starts, you know, don't just pray, do something, which is great, but it becomes don't pray, do something. Right. And, and I just want to push back that. I mean, I honestly believe what is holding the world together now, what is keeping things from just, um, completely falling apart is old ladies, probably a bunch of N and a bunch of nuns that are like in their little rooms, just praying the hell out of things.
Speaker 2 00:56:47 And, um, and so, uh, Kristen Johnson actually has this great essay and it's in, um, comment magazine and you can look this up, it's online, but it says, um, it's called something like go into your room, close the door, and engage the world. Something like that. It's this idea that even in private prayer, we're part of God changing the world, God making all things new, God uses the prayers of his people to actually change things. And, um, and so I think it's good that we're called the activism, but I don't, it, it can become, and this is not, I'm like going off this isn't exactly what you asked, but I promise I'll get back to bless the dying, but it can become a practical atheism where we, um, where we are committed to change and to work so much that we forget that it is the world belongs to God and it is not ours to save.
Speaker 2 00:57:56 So we, I I'm all for activism. And then I get into this in the book that out of a place of weeping and watching, sitting with God and prayer, we move into work. But if we go too quickly to that, it can become a PR, a practical atheism where we are the ones that are saving the world. So I love the call to prayer, um, that this activist, this woman who is very hard at work, asked you guys to pray. I think that's such a good, good, needed impulse, um, in the church right now, we need to pray. We need to learn to pray our general, the younger generations need to learn to pray. Um, and, uh, I'm seeing that all the time and I'm seeing a hunger for that. Um, but yeah, we need to learn to pray so that, okay, so let's talk about bless the dying and to the suffering. Um, bless the dying is one of those things that we were talking about, I would have never gotten there without received prayer. I would have never considered praying the prayer blessed the dying to me, it seems like blessing, the dying would mean they didn't die. They were healed. Right. So I talk in the book about how much praying this prayer over years, um, challenged my view of what blessing is, what does it even mean for the dying to be blessed? And that blessing often looks
Speaker 3 00:59:26 Diametrically different. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:59:28 There are, I don't know if it's diametrically opposed or at least very different then, um,
Speaker 3 00:59:34 Then I would expect, or that I would ever ask for. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:59:39 And then we see it, then, then you turn to the scriptures and you see the blesser to them. Meek blessed are those who mourn blessed are the poor in spirit. These are the blessed ones, I think. Well, that's not my understanding of blessing. Um, so in really subtle ways, I think the prosperity gospel has kind of eked its way into all of us in America. It's a combination of the prosperity gospel and then just straight up consumerism, right? Straight up like American dream consumerism, um, coming together in ways that have affected all of our spiritual lives. Even those of us like me that would say, Oh, well, I'm, you know, I don't, I reject the prosperity gospel, but it's still S it sneaks up on me, uh, and has shaped my imagination, such that, um,
Speaker 3 01:00:28 Aye, aye.
Speaker 2 01:00:32 When I ask for blessing, I'm not asking God to make me mourn. I'm not asking God to make me poor in spirit or meek. Um, that's not what I'm asking for, but that apparently is where blessing is found, right? Like that apparently
Speaker 3 01:00:45 Is, um, that,
Speaker 2 01:00:50 That Jesus is the blessed had one in anointed one and he looked at his life, you know, he lived, he was a life, he was celibate, he was single, he died,
Speaker 3 01:01:01 Um, uh, uh,
Speaker 2 01:01:03 Painful death with very few friends around him, forgotten and, and lived a life of poverty. And it was a man of sorrows. So, I mean, I don't know if that's the blessing that I really want to sign up for.
Speaker 3 01:01:17 Um, and yet that'll be
Speaker 2 01:01:21 Appears to be the blessing of the Christian life. Right. And so, um, so yeah, so the, the whole bless the dying was a, a great chapter for me to write because I, I think that prayer is an example of, of the way that praying has shaped my belief. I would have never asked God to bless the dying on my own. Um, and then soothing the suffering. I, I talk about, um,
Speaker 3 01:01:48 Um, the comfort of God, what it means to receive the comfort of guide and how we, I included go to
Speaker 2 01:02:00 All different things for comfort in the midst of our suffering. Um,
Speaker 3 01:02:04 I think, I think we
Speaker 2 01:02:06 Really do have a culture that doesn't know how to suffer very well. And because of that,
Speaker 3 01:02:11 We, we have
Speaker 2 01:02:13 Highly addicted culture. We have a, um, there's a lot of addiction. And I talk about in the book and I'm not just talking. I mean, of course I'm talking about pornography and alcohol and drugs, but I'm also talking about all kinds of things like work and, um, the internet and political commentary and being right. And, um, uh, it gives, could go on and on, uh, of, uh, likes and retweets and, um, conspiracy theories. And I mean, I mean, all of this is I think in a way, because we don't know how to suffer, man. I thought that before COVID, and I really, really think that now. Um, and so we don't know where to go for real comfort and we need comfort. I say this in the book, you don't think you need comfort. Cause you're weak. We don't need stoicism. We need actual rich comfort. And, um, and, and I, I think that, um, we're not, we don't know how to find that in guide oftentimes, so I don't know what else do you want me to say? No, it's literally like teasers for what the chapters are about kind of, so,
Speaker 1 01:03:27 No, it was so good. I have like this list of really rich resources that I can't wait to share on this, but it made me think of one actually. Um, I don't know if you've read, um, Seth Haynes is, I was one of his previous books, um, coming clean, but he kind of talks about that. Basically, he, he kind of just says, look, we're all addicted to something, right. Because we're all seeking comfort. Um, and we're generally right. We're generally not seeking it in God. And, um, it was just powerful. Um, it was powerful book because I think that, um, another, I was having another conversation and I was asking this person about her, uh, faith tradition. And she said, well, maybe, you know, maybe I, I would kind of lean this way, but, but they don't necessarily have a theology for suffering. And, and I think that that's, I feel like that's kind of maybe along with the, kind of the prosperity gospel kind of eating its way into a lot of these places, I would say that's one of the things that I think we see maybe in this spot where a theology of suffering should be there, there was a vacuum left maybe, and maybe didn't happen that way, you know, but I kind of see this, this whole shape of where we, we should, we should have a theology for suffering.
Speaker 1 01:04:47 And instead we have a, we have a malformed doctrine of prosperity kind of in its, uh, kind of in its place. And so when yeah, prosperity doesn't happen the way we think it should and suffering does enter in, we're not left with anything there. We don't really know how to move in that space, you know? So anyway, um, I feel like, yes, we have talked about heavy stuff. I hope this doesn't feel like a Debbie downer, but the book is not, uh, it's not doom and gloom. I mean, it's just not, it's a beautiful, beautiful, um, I would say I learned a lot of new things, but also I felt like you helped give me language, um, for emotions that I was having or experiences, um, that I was having. So I, I feel like for me, it was, it was a both, and I learned a lot of new things and, and helping me kind of, uh, grasp hopefully, uh, embarking on some new perspectives, but there were also things about it that were very familiar. Right. And it just gave me words, uh, to help pinpoint, um, these experiences, uh, that I've, that I have in these emotions that I'm kind of living through and, um, and normalize them, not, um, not in like a casual way, but in kind of in a we're all in this together.
Speaker 2 01:06:16 Hmm. That's great. Yeah. So yeah. So glad the book resonated. I'm so glad. And I, I went, yeah, I'm glad that there were things. I mean, I love the idea of giving people language. That's such a, such an important thing and yeah. So,
Speaker 1 01:06:39 Yeah. Thank you. So, um, where can we, where can, I mean, I know the book is available everywhere. Um, this is prayer in the night for those who work or watch or weep. Um, but where can people see you on social media and things like that?
Speaker 2 01:06:58 So I'm on Twitter, it's Tish underscore, underscore Warren. I'm actually trying to be on Twitter less. Um, so I will be there, but not all the time. And I'm trying to avoid controversy on it these days. Um,
Speaker 1 01:07:15 That's, I mean, I think the way to avoid controversy on Twitter these days is to do exactly what you just said and just to be on it less. Right.
Speaker 2 01:07:23 Um, I am, I'm very new to Instagram. Like maybe I have four posts I just joined like in the last couple of months. Um,
Speaker 1 01:07:34 Is it the sand?
Speaker 2 01:07:37 I don't even know what my handle is. Um,
Speaker 1 01:07:39 We'll find it. We'll put it on here.
Speaker 2 01:07:42 I'm sorry. I, I am not great at the, I love writing. Um, and I, I hate all this, uh, all the, like all this part of, of things. Um, so, Oh, it's T I don't know. What's my handle. It says Tisha Harrison, Warren. Yep. Okay, great. That's um, yeah. Uh, yeah, so, um, anyway, uh,
Speaker 1 01:08:17 Um, and then I have a public Facebook page. Now this is also brand new. I don't earn, I don't, unless I've met people personally, I don't friend them on Facebook because I have a lot of private information about me, kids and stuff on it. Um, so I say this because I get a lot of friend requests and I'm not trying to be mean, uh, but I have a public Facebook page now, and then I have a website to share us in warren.com. It's a static site. Um, it's not updated much, but, um, but, uh, it's uh, when I publish something, uh, we'll add that. And I have a column in Christianity today, um, uh, called a drink of light. Um, and I, so I, I, it's a monthly column, so you can, you can look for me on Christianity today. I'll have something monthly out.
Speaker 1 01:09:10 There's the main ways though. That's one of my favorite publications. I just love, uh, reading Christianity today and kind of poking around and seeing what's there. Um, yes, it's great. Usually everyone's subscribed to CT. Yes. I love it. I actually got my best friend, a like a paper subscription for Christmas, and then I like, totally forgot about it. Cause you know, it came and it was one of the cards that came in one of my magazines and of course, you know, it takes like multiple weeks for all of that to get done and everything. And so she texted me a few weeks ago and she was like, did you subscribe me to CT? And I was like, yes, I actually, I completely forgot that I did. I did. So she was like totally stoked about it. And, um, and I was thrilled to share because I feel like that has been, um, a publication, especially in the last year, you know, with, with everything. That's kind of all of the people upheaval that we have seen. I feel like that's a really good place to, um, help gain perspective, um, from, you know, Christian voices in that space. And so, yeah, so I love it. So we'll, we'll link to your column on a CT as well. So, um, thank you so much again for coming on and talking about the book for writing this book. I'm glad that the cat never went away.
Speaker 1 01:10:34 I'm glad you kept feeding her. Um, because it's just it's, it's no doubt. It's just speaking to so many of us where we are. So thank you so much. Yeah. I'm thank you for having me.
Speaker 0 01:10:48 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B SETI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
