Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis besetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. All right. Well,
Speaker 1 00:00:39 I have to tell you guys, some of you who've been listening for a little while, know that I'm a student and I don't talk about it a ton, except for the fact that I'm realizing how much I don't know, in theological spaces right now. But one of the reasons I'm mentioning that is because I'm so thrilled to be talking with someone who went to fuller, who is continuing her theological education. And I can see the fruit of that journey, like sitting across from me. And so I'm so excited about it. My guest today is Kat RMS. Hey Kat. Hi.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 I am so thrilled to have you. Um, as I mentioned before, we started recording, I literally just finished your book like 15 minutes ago. Um, it's, it's brand new by the time this airs, it actually won't even be out yet, but it'll be ready for pre-order and that is absolutely to faith. What women on the margins teach us about wisdom, persistence, and strength. So Kat, before we get into the book, can you tell us a little bit about that theological background that you have coming into this?
Speaker 2 00:01:45 Yeah, definitely. Um, I definitely resonate with what you said, because I feel like once I graduated, I graduated with two masters and I was like, yeah, I know less now that I have two masters behind my name that I did before I started. So, um, I completely resonate with that. I'm sort of surrendered and just said that I don't know is a sacred declaration. Um, me, so, yeah, but, um, yeah, so I, um, like I said, I graduated where, like you said, I graduated from fuller, um, with a master of divinity and a master of theology. Um, well, a master of arts in theology, excuse me. And that was, uh, just a wonderful journey. Um, I unexpectedly ended up in seminary. Um, you know, like a lot of people, I think don't really plan on going to secondary. So I sort of just stumbled in seminary.
Speaker 2 00:02:36 Didn't really know what I mean. I, I initially wanted to go just because I wanted to write and I wanted to learn about God so I could write about God. I mean, it was just very open-ended. Um, but I fell in love with the academy and I fell in love with all of that, which is interesting because of my book, I sort of pushed against, you know, the whole idea of like formal knowledge and formal theological education. So that's sort of my wrestling that, um, embracing the, the Western, uh, you know, again, quote unquote formal theology, but also the embodied theology that we learn from the environment, our Alita is everyone around us. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:14 And right now, like we said before, so if cat is breathing a little bit heavily, she is very pregnant right now and you've just moved. I mean, you've been, where are you in California? I mean, you've moved across the country.
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Yeah, I was, uh, I was in LA. Yeah. LA and I just moved to Nashville. I'll be starting, um, a THM at Vanderbilt in January, so
Speaker 1 00:03:36 Yeah. Fabulous. That's fabulous. We've actually had a couple, um, I've had a couple of guests on the podcast who are Vanderbilt grads and so that's, yeah, that's super fun. That's really exciting. I'm, I'm thrilled for you that you're finishing that and thrilled to hear that you're wrestling with, with yeah, because they so important. Right. I think it's, I think it's so important. You mentioned, um, the Jacob wrestling match in your book. And that was one of the things, um, one of my new Testament professors was, was talking about that passage and saying, you know, it's, it's a good thing to wrestle with the text and we, but we also have to realize that when we come out searching for that blessing in the wrestling, that we will probably also be bruised. Right. Right. Just like Jacob. Right. And so we kind of entering into that wrestling match. It's good for all of us to know we don't get one without the other.
Speaker 2 00:04:33 Right, right, right. We don't get it. I think that that's sort of what birthed, um, this whole writing process, you know, it was that I, I mentioned in my first chapter, the research grief and it was, you know, in that wrestling that I was, you know, smacked with this grief and that sort of birthed, you know, the journey of what I believe that faith is. So yeah. I think they both definitely come together. Well,
Speaker 1 00:04:56 That's my first question. So can you tell us more about like, before we get into what the book actually is, talk about where that was birthed in you.
Speaker 2 00:05:04 Yeah. So, yeah. Um, so it was like, like I mentioned that idea of research grief. I was in class and I was taking a class on women and trans history. And, you know, I was learning about all these incredible women in history, but, you know, I just felt sort of disconnected from my reality or my lived experience. And I started thinking, well, what about Cuban women? Right. Um, where, how does that, you know, where do they play out in the history of Christianity? Um, and of course I knew about the history of colonization and you know, about these things. But I think that was the first time that it became very personal to me as I started doing research and, you know, realizing that my ancestors, you know, um, were deeply affected by this. And so what does that mean for me? What does that, you know, what's that generational trauma and that sort of, you know, and where I, where I am now, you know, how does that history play into that?
Speaker 2 00:05:52 Um, and the Jesus that I know, right. What Jesus, is it that I know, is it how mentioned the imported Christ, um, that was imported from Europe, you know, to the quote unquote new world, or is it Jesus of Loso means is as Delatorre, Niguel, Delatorre calls them or calls, you know, this Jesus, Jesus of the humble. Um, so I just began wrestling with that. Like what Jesus is it that I know, you know, of course we all want to say that we know the humble Jesus, but, um, you know, w what's around us and, and the, the, what we're sort of picking up from the environment and the culture and what's going on, and, you know, all those things and those who have trained us, and those who have taught us, you know, what, who is it that we're picking up? And so that was where that wrestling sort of began.
Speaker 2 00:06:39 Um, and again, it was just a very personal, intimate experience, but it was also an intellectual experience. And I think that those things, um, you know, can kind of come together and in many ways in theological education, um, you know, they're kind of separate, right? Like, I can talk about how we, we tend to live fragmented identities where we're doing all of this petty stuff here, but then our embodied selves are here, you know, and they're separate and there's this chasm. And so for me, that was sort of where the chasm began, you know, where the, where I began coming together, you know, where my history and myself and my wrestling and, and also the, the theological stuff I was studying and the research all just came together and it, I felt that grief, you know? Um, so yeah, so that was sort of a birth to this, um, that, and also, um, just reflecting on my grandmother's life.
Speaker 2 00:07:31 I mean, for the early, I didn't grow up evangelical. And so when I sort of stumbled into this evangelical world, those first few years, I genuinely believed my grandmother wasn't saved. You know, like I was told that, you know, she, I needed to like lead her to Christ when it's like my goodness, you know, once I started reflecting on her life, I'm like, there are a few people that knew Christ more than she did. Um, but the sort of arrogance that I had in thinking that I could like, you know, like evangelize to her or whatever. And that was just because that's what the brand of Christianity that I was in, you know, sort of told me. Right. Um, so yeah, so it was just a lot of that wrestling and coming, you know, realizing, wait a minute, my grandmother, she loves God, you know, so, yeah. So that was sort of, um, how that all came together into the book that you read.
Speaker 1 00:08:26 But, you know, when you talk about that and even kind of that, that brand of Christianity where you entered into that, I don't, I don't know if it would be fair to say at first, when you, when you kind of entered into that, um, that evangelical world in the states that, um, there was kind of less of a wrestling, maybe at that point, it maybe looked a little bit more like a pendulum. I don't know. It's kind of how I, how I read it. Um, but I think that's one of the things as you were talking that was kind of turning around in my head is that I think so many of us who grew up with that brand of Christianity as our home, um, don't understand that there is a wrestling to be had, um, you know, which Jesus do. We know, we don't know there are multiple figures of him, right.
Speaker 1 00:09:17 Or multiple perspectives of him. And even those of us who grew up maybe without, you know, a lot of denominations in, um, in the U S evangelical denominations have clergy who don't have formal theological educations. But I would say they're still highly impacted by that formal theology. Right. Because that's kind of, what's passed down. That's, that's our, uh, faith inheritance often. And the fact that you're introducing this wrestling, I would say I, um, am more comfortable now with having these conversations and more comfortable with the wrestling. But if you had talked to me even five years ago, right. Um, I'm just going to throw it out there, like much of your book would have been really uncomfortable for me. Yeah. Right. Like for me too much of it would have been. So that's kind of my next question is what, and when I was reading it, I was thinking, oh my goodness, we need this so badly. We need these stories. We need this perspective. We need this messaging. But from your perspective as the author, if you agree with that, I would say, and I think you do because you're publishing it, but I'm like, why does the church need this so badly? And maybe specifically, why does the white American evangelical that we're, that we're both, you know, in and have been? Why, um, why does that segment of the church need to hear this message and maybe even start participating in some of that wrestling with you?
Speaker 2 00:10:50 Yeah. Um, that's a great question. I think, um, well, for many reasons, I think, um, you know, so much of what's been happening in our culture, just kind of points to the fact that yeah, we really do need something else than what we've been given or what we've been fed. You know, I, I stay in early on in the book that a lot of our reality has been curated. Um, and I think that that's because, um, obviously colonization. I mean, there's a lot of things. Um, I look at it through the perspective, uh, early on in the book of, you know, colonization and wisdom. And so I sort of focused on that. And, um, when I talk about decolonization, I do, there's a lot of ways, obviously you can look at decolonization, but I started just looking at wisdom and asking, you know, what is knowledge and who is wise and, you know, sort of rustling around that.
Speaker 2 00:11:37 And my, my central question is, you know, what if all the greatest theologians the world has ever known are those from the world wouldn't consider theologians at all. And I think that that's, you know, just wrestling with that question is the reason why the church might need it. You know, when we look at scripture, at least when I was doing for this book, and as I was, um, even before I started doing research for the book, what sort of sparked my wanting to write this book. And, um, as far as the biblical aspect of it goes, um, you know, I'm looking at all of these women in the Bible and they're so wise, and there's so much that they're doing and the way that they're using their bodies and the way that they're, you know, and they're not, um, the, the way that their stories are told and the, what they're celebrated for, and what they're known for are not things that, um, you, you know, our leaders now would be, you know, known for or teaching about.
Speaker 2 00:12:29 And so a lot of these women in scripture are so overlooked and as I'm, you know, researching this and realizing as I'm reading about them, and I'm realizing, wait a minute, this is a story of a lot of women in history and a lot of women in my own life. This is my grandmother's story. And these are theologians, you know, and like I mentioned earlier, I had genuinely believed that my grandmother was going to hell, you know, and that, for me, once, you know, I sort of came out of that. I realized how, not only was it ridiculous and was it silly, but it was heartbreaking that I would think that, and it's heartbreaking that so many Christians would think that, um, because she didn't lead a Bible study or because I don't know, she wasn't door to door evangelizing or whatever. Right. She was surviving.
Speaker 2 00:13:13 Um, and that's sort of when I realized a lot of the women in the Bible are surviving, you know, and in that survival, that survival is holy and that survival is blessed by God, you know, and God is within that and moving and yeah, I mean, God is intimately acquainted with the story of survival. It's not like they need to be changed. Excuse me. They need to be doing something specific in order for them to be, people are children of God. And so that's when I realized like, wait a minute, we are overlooking so many genuine theologians, and maybe we're looking at the wrong people when it comes to who is wise and who holds the knowledge and who has the wisdom and who has the most to teach us about God, I think we're historically, we've looked at the, in the wrong places. Um, and, and it wasn't until, you know, I sort of shifted, and it's not like I had to start looking in different places.
Speaker 2 00:14:04 I mean, this was my story. Um, it was just a shift of perspective. It was a shift of, you know, how I was looking and, you know, and, and all of these things. And once I shifted my perspective, I realized there's so much to learn, um, from so many different places that I was looking. Um, and not just that I had so much to learn, but there was so much beauty to be hold and so much wisdom to be holding so much life there. Um, that didn't come from, you know, where I was originally told that I needed to look. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:37 Because they, because they didn't fit some sort of prescribed box that was kind of made up by a different culture. Right. Um, and I think that's part of, what's kind of, uh, resonating with me, you know, is it's like this, this culture that I was raised in specifically that the Christian culture that I was raised in surrounded by for, um, you know, so many decades, I'm like, man, the vast majority of the world's Christians do not live this way. And don't think this way, you know, theologically, you know, um, I mean, like, like the global stuff, it looks completely different than what I grew up. Right. And, and there's not like just five Christians there. This is like massive, you know, population. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I'm hoping you can expand on this, because it's like, like where I'm seeing some of the things that I'm learning and intersecting with your book, and it's, it's been like really cool for me personally.
Speaker 1 00:15:39 So I'm going to go ahead and mention it, hoping, hoping that someone else it can resonate with them as well. But one of these kind of like ODA moments that I had in school last quarter was like, when you're reading the Bible, one day thing you can do to kind of practice, you know, is insert yourself into the position of a character. Right. And I'm like this, the reason I say this is does, because we do that when we're reading anything else, that's the reason that movies and books and stories, interest us is because the good ones, at least we're able to position ourselves with, within the story of someone right inside of that. Or, or even as the fly on the wall and think, what would I do, you know, or what am I hearing? Right. And so, um, a couple of other places that I was able to practice that this quarter, you mentioned both of these women, and one of them actually is more Naomi than Ruth.
Speaker 1 00:16:41 Um, and then one of them was bat Sheba. And, and I guess my question that I kind of want you to run with is, you know, this question of, you know, maybe we can ask ourselves a, does this make us uncomfortable to insert ourselves, you know, into the position of a marginalized woman in the biblical narrative? Um, I think it's easier for us probably as women to just do that. It feels more natural, probably it's even easier for women of color or other women who have, who have been in marginalized positions. Um, and I think maybe the question is like, maybe we can ask ourselves if we can't or if we're uncomfortable with that. Like why, you know, why is that a challenge? Why is that so difficult? Why is that maybe even not theologically the correct thing to do? So I don't know. I mean, I, I don't know. I didn't see much wrestling with that in your book. I felt like that probably, maybe, I don't know if it came naturally for you, but you sure helped the reader do that quite a bit. So can you take any of that and kind of, and kind of run with it?
Speaker 2 00:17:48 Yeah. Um, so as you were speaking, I just kept thinking about, um, and I, I don't particularly mention this in my book, but I kind of, I, I think I hope allude to it. Um, the idea that we tend to over spiritualize, a lot of Bible, right. And so, you know, we want to make it this, like, like I use the example of, of Ruth and Naomi, as you mentioned, and I, you know, so much, we want to make it about Boaz or this beautiful story. Or I hear people saying that like Boaz is the Jesus character and all this stuff, and maybe that stuff isn't wrong and that's fine. And you can, you know, say it's a beautiful story. You know, I think it's a cool story. And, you know, um, I think obviously the relationship between Ruth and I own the, a special and all these things.
Speaker 2 00:18:27 Um, but again, it's a story of survival, right? I mean, Naomi is literally like a Ruth, can you go do this? Like seduce this man go, you know, stand in this part of, part of the field, make sure he sees you, you know, we don't get the full conversation, but we don't know what else she may have told her, what else? You know, like do these things. Why, because we need to survive, we need to eat, you know, we need to secure your future. You need to get married because we need to live, you know, we need to figure this out. And like, that's just reality. You know, that's not necessarily like this cutesy, you know, thing like that is. And I feel like, as you were mentioning, that's the story for the majority of women across the globe. They're just trying to survive. You know, that's a story of a lot of women here in, in, in us America just trying to survive.
Speaker 2 00:19:17 And so, um, putting yourself in that is, I think in a lot of ways, removing all of the spiritual stuff that we sort of want to add into it, or take from it, not all the time, you can do that. Of course you can do whatever you want when it comes to that. I do that all the time, but I mean, in that, in that sense, right. And just see the survival of it, you know, I, I talk about the story of Tamar and how she was shrewd and she, you know, used her body to figure out again, to ensure her future, right. To make sure that she didn't die, you know? And so I think that in many ways, when we can, um, look at the Bible in that way and just kind of see it for what it is and see the stories for what they are and see how God is in the midst of that, like, you know, Tamar is in the, the, the genealogy of Jesus, you know, like her story was important, her story mattered.
Speaker 2 00:20:08 And, you know, if that would've happened, nowadays, people would be like, oh my goodness, I can't believe Tamar did this. But you know, it's a real thing. It's in scripture, it's real and it's raw. Um, and I think that it is important that we, um, see these characters as everyday characters, um, as everyday people, um, that we read these stories as they're meant to be read, you know, and without having to like insert Jesus or do all these things, just read it for what it is. And there's so much to glean from that. And I think that, you know, we, as Christians love the Bible, understandably, I love the Bible. Um, but I think that we need to love all of it, all the uncomfortable and uncomfortable parts of it. We need to love it when we don't like it. Right. And that, you know, going back to that wrestling, be willing to wrestle with it.
Speaker 2 00:20:56 And well, what does this mean? And what does it mean that women use their bodies, their sexuality to get what they needed to get. And God saw that as holy and it's in scripture, you know, we want to, um, mimic the stories of David and the stories of, but what about the stories of these women? Um, so yeah, so, you know, as you were speaking, that's sort of just what I thought about, um, realizing these are everyday stories, the stories of our grandmothers and our mothers and our, you know, people in our lives that, um, may not be directly in, you know, in our families, but people across the street, people in our communities, like these are the stories. And, and I just love to think about how God is intimately acquainted with it, right. God's not surprised, or God's not like, oh my goodness. Need to get your act together. Like, no, God's in the midst of that.
Speaker 1 00:21:47 Yes. And, and as, and as you were talking, I want you to go to embodiment next, because I love how you speak about that. And, and, and when you talk about, you know, not necessarily inserting Jesus into everything in the text, I completely understand what you're saying. Then I took it in my head and twisted it. And I'm like, yes. But then Jesus came and made himself embodied because we try to over spiritualize. And he's saying, this is really important. This embodiment part is really important. And I wanted to share, there was like a, a part when I was reading Ruth and I just was trying to look it up, but I'm, I may be wrong about this. No, here it is. Here it is. It was, it struck me. I was just like reading through Ruth a few months ago. And I'm like, how did this never strike me before?
Speaker 1 00:22:34 Because one of the things that did was the sexuality. Wow. I'm like this, she was not playing like, this is real. But then, uh, in the last, in the last chapter of Ruth, it says, um, uh, through the offspring, the Lord gives you by this young woman, may you be like that of Paris whom Tamar bore to Judah and we get reconnected, right? Like these stories of these two shrewd women get reconnected in the life of Boaz and in their line. Right. And I'm like, this is not like when we read it. I think we, you know, I have read Reetha a million times and I didn't see it, but I'm like, but I think when the Israelites were reading this, this, this wasn't like a passing thing, right. That would have been an instant connection for them. Like they would have instantly recognized the stories of those two marginalized women coming together in Boaz, and then continuing it down to, with the recognition that the last line of that book is talking about David. Right, right, right. It all coming together in this kingship that is very divine and very complicated in this is not a, a clean embodiment, um, right. That we're talking about here. This is like a really complex situation with a lot of, a lot of complications going on. And, um, yeah. So I don't know. Can you talk about that embodiment in this, um, in the wives and the lives of these, um, marginalized women theologians?
Speaker 2 00:24:13 Um, yeah. Yeah. I, um, I love how you mentioned that. Yeah. It's complicated. It's complex. So I do try and lean into that as much as I can in the book and like how our identities are very complex and obviously dominant culture. Doesn't like that, you know, dominant culture wants us to be easy to understand and simple and, you know, black and white. Um, but it's definitely not like that. And I'm one of the sort of examples that I use is Mary, you know, and how Mary is, it's so complicated, you know, like she's an image of a virginity in this and, you know, in the Catholic tradition and, you know, women are expected to be like her and be like this perfect Virgin. But then on the other hand, you know, the Protestant tradition, like she's heavily ignored. Um, because I don't know, they're afraid of people worshiping her.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 Like, we're just not what people do, but anyway, so it's just like this complicated. So, you know, Mary she's become this really weird thing, you know, and they've complicated her in the worst way, but I'm sort of like, but Mary's all of us, you know, like we're all sort of complicated, you know, and we all, you know, there's divinity in us and there's, you know, there's just all these things and we're trying to figure it out. And so anyway, I was thinking about that as you were saying that, um, yeah. And, and I think that leaning into the complexity is, is a way that we can, you know, decolonize and it's a way that we can, I think, you know, uh, God is a complex character. Right. Um, so I think it's a way that we can just lead into the divine for sure. But as far as embodiment, um, I think what really, really stood out to me as I was thinking about embodiment and how it relates to our lead, that theology.
Speaker 2 00:25:49 Well, first of all, you know, my grandmother, she is just a naturally embodied person. Like I know those of us with more privilege. We have to like, think about how can I be embodied today. But usually people aren't thinking about that, they're just like living in bodied existences. Um, but I think a good example for me was Tabitha and scripture. Um, and I think, uh, you know, I write a chapter about her, but what really stood out to me was, you know, there's this woman who she's called on to be resurrected from the dead. She's like one of four people in all of the new Testament besides Jesus was resurrected. So like, clearly there's something important about her life. Um, but I never really like are, you know, I heard about her story a ton of times and it was just like, oh yeah, cool topic.
Speaker 2 00:26:33 The, you know, this female disciple, uh, it shows resurrected, all right next, you know, but I was like, wait a minute, there's something about her. Like, why is she resurrected? And I, that we don't get too many details about Tabitha, but what we do get is that she made to next for those in the community. And I thought that that was so incredible, obviously because my grandmother also sewed and she made a living through making clothes, but in my head, you know, as I'm, as I'm studying this and as I'm researching this, and as I'm praying through this, and as I'm thinking, you know, spiritually through this, and I realized like, wait a minute, that that is a holy task, right? That is a sacred thing. What Tabitha did, um, creating with your hands and providing for the community and supplying and, and the beauty of, of, you know, what it is to create something with your hands, the intentionality, and, um, you know, how she, I write about how, when my grandmother made stuff for me, you know, she knew every crevice of our body and suffered other women in the community.
Speaker 2 00:27:33 And, you know, she would hold things around us to measure us. And she, you know, there was so much care and so much love that went into her, making an outfit, you know, and we in our culture tend to think like, okay, cool, that's the thing, you know, but no, you know, across the globe, um, the weight, you know, how we dress and what we put on our body is, and that is a form of spirituality, you know, um, in non-Western ways of being, you know, an African spirituality and so many other places across the globe, like this sort of embodied existence is, is just the way that you are. And, you know, and that's also a good look, London, I read the story of Tabitha and I'm like, that sounds like that's, you know, the similar to me right. Or not to me, but similar, those things sound similar to me.
Speaker 2 00:28:19 Um, the way the rest of the world views, um, the work of the hand, right. Um, as a sacred thing. And then I, you know, also connecting that with the midwives and thinking of joke, Abed Moses's mother, and how, you know, the care and intentionality of creating a basket for her son and trusting the waters, the living waters to carry him, you know, and to keep him. And there's just so many ways that, um, we live interconnected realities and existences. Um, but we don't often see it that way. And so that's something that, you know, as I was just reflecting on the stories again, of the women in the Bible and the stories of my grandmother, and then culminating in Jesus, who is like the epitome of embodiment, you know? Um, yeah. And we've come so far from that, you know, we see our spiritual selves and our intellectual selves and our theological selves as sort of separate from all of that. But I don't think that that's separate. I think it's called it's all one. So yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:29:13 No, I, my grandmother was a seamstress as well. And so when I read that, it totally resonated with me. And, and that's actually one of the things that my husband like remembers about when we first met is well, because I told him later, but one of the first things I remember about meeting him was that his shoulder seems real way too far down on his arms of his shirts, because I'm like, because my grandmother, you know, like you said, she knew she knew your body. Right. And, and my grandmother knew ours and, and she, and she knew, um, I just kept thinking about the fit, right? Like she just knew how things were supposed to fit, you know? And I think that, I think there's a beautiful, um, you know, spirituality and embodiment in that as well. You know, that, um, it's that things aren't a one size fits. All right. And when you have someone in your life who can mold and shape things to fit you as a person and recognize you or uniqueness, um, gosh, that's really special,
Speaker 2 00:30:13 Right? Yeah. And I think I've got in the garden. Right. I heard about that too. Like God made clothes, her Adam and Eve, you know, when they were, when they felt shame and when they were ashamed and yet it's like, you mentioned, like it was very specific and there was a lot of intentionality and care and love in that. So, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:31 Yeah. And when you mentioned Jocko bed, we, we love the story of Moses. We happen to have a, we have a, a Moisey in our family who is with, who is Moses, and then we also have a Miriam. And so we love that story. And I love the way that the movie, the cartoon prince of Egypt portrays that because I had never, and I don't, we don't know how it was really, but, but in the, in the cartoon, there's, you know, hippos and crocodiles and, you know, all of these things in the water. Right. And, and the, and the basket is kind of getting shoved along by oars in the boat. And it, it made me, my imagination went nuts, thinking about as a mother putting
Speaker 2 00:31:09 Right baby in a basket, you know, and yeah. And doing that,
Speaker 1 00:31:14 That reminds me when you talk about the midwives, I mean, gosh, what we've already talked about, Tamar and Ruth and all of this, you, you touch on it. I feel like in a few different chapters may, maybe not, maybe it's more concentrated than that, but can you talk about kind of this, I don't know. I don't even know how to phrase it. Well, I'm thinking, I don't know if it's like a misplaced virtue, but like, so many of the women that, that you talk about in the book, these biblical characters have, what many of us in certain Christian cultures would kind of say, like, I don't know why that's a virtuous thing to do, or I don't know, you know, and you think it, like the midwives are here, they're, you know, civil disobedience is, is the phrase you use, which is completely appropriate. This is exactly what they're doing.
Speaker 1 00:31:59 They're totally breaking the law. Um, you know, and some of us would say, well, life trumps that, but, but yeah, but I'm like rehab, you know, I mean, and she's lying. And then we've got Tamar and rich and they're seducing, and we've got, you know, like all sorts of these, these women. Um, but these aren't, and I would say maybe these are the, the places we see, like they're being praised for their faith. They're not being scorned for some sort of sinful action. Right, right. So, um, can you talk about that, these theologians that we see and like, how do we even start to, to wrestle with that or put that in the appropriate place in our, in our theological minds?
Speaker 2 00:32:41 Yeah. Um, no, that's a good question. I think, um, that's a hard thing for all of us to wrestle with because of how, um, like what we've been told is good faith, right. Following the rules, um, you know, so much of Christianity has become, or has been, uh, behavioral management versus, you know, um, deep faith and doing the deeply right thing, which looks different in every situation. Um, particularly when we live in a culture of empire and we're dealing with yeah. Um, empire and injustices and poverty, and so many of these complicated realities that force us to do make complicated decisions and do things that, um, many would be uncomfortable with. Um, because we've been told that Christianity is behavioral management, right. Or because we've been told that that Christianity is, um, yeah, I mean, appearing a certain way on the outside. Um, when it's not clearly at all in scripture, it's the opposite of that.
Speaker 2 00:33:40 Um, in scripture we see people just doing the deeply right thing. And as I keep mentioning, trying to survive for Hayes, so trying to survive and also seeking justice, doing the deeply right thing, which always doesn't look like, um, following the rules in, you know, in that way, um, you know, breaking the law or whatever you want to call it, you know? Um, but at the end of, at the end of, in, in many of these stories, like liberation is found and people are saved and, and so much beauty comes out of, um, deep faith, which is birth yeah. Out of, um, just conviction for justice and for liberation and, um, to see people thriving and free. Right. Um, I think that's the story of so many of the story of Israel, right. Um, they're just seeking liberation. They just want to be free from political powers.
Speaker 2 00:34:32 They want to be free from the empire, you know, from a lot of these things that are causing oppression and causing. Um, and that, that's what God's about. Oh God, like, yes. All right, we're going to set you free. And that's just not a spiritual freedom. That's a physical literal physical freedom. Um, and again, I think that goes back to, we love to over spiritualize things, you know? No, you know, it just, it just means spiritual. Well, no, it doesn't, you know, you actually read the Bible. It doesn't, it literally means physical too. Um, so I think that, yeah, when we're looking at the holistic, um, you know, I like to say when we're looking at God's on earth, as it is in heaven, right. Um, where people are physically free and spiritually free and thriving and, um, co-creating with God and free to live their full selves.
Speaker 2 00:35:18 I mean, when we look at the whole picture it's going to yeah. Force us to make very interesting decisions, um, that might upset the powers that be, because the powers that be, you know, want the status quo. And, you know, we think of the PAX Romana, you know, it just wanted this, uh, sort of, um, one to look like there was peace, but there was not peace. You know, so many people in the Roman empire were oppressed. Right. Um, but there was no fighting, there was no quote unquote, you know, because everything would just, it was peaceful for the power, you know, for the powerful, um, but so much of Jesus has messages out about that. Right. So much of Jesus's message is not trying to keep the power, you know, those, the powerful power with power, but turning things on its head. Um, so yeah, so I think it is very complicated and it requires so much wrestling.
Speaker 2 00:36:07 And I think that's a safe space to be. I mean, I don't have all the answers. I think it's a, it's a situation by situation thing, you know, I think it's a all right. And we have to, I think that's where, um, when we're connected to God and where we're in tune with the divine, that we can make these decisions. We, we know when to protest, we know when to put our bodies on the line, we'll know when to, you know, and it's when doing, when it requires making a deeply right decision. Um, yeah. And it's complicated phrase.
Speaker 1 00:36:35 I just, I wrote it down and like, I love that like th the deeply right thing. Yeah. That is, that's like, so profound. It's going to now, I'm going to sit with that for the rest of the day. Thank you. Hopefully for longer than that, but I just love that. I just love the way you phrased that to do, doing the deeply right thing. Um, we've talked about a lot of the women, the biblical women, but I'm wondering if you'll tell us maybe one or two stories of the women in the book who are, um, who were doing that deeply right. Thing. Um, I don't know, just, I don't know, pick, pick one or two of the, of your favorite, you know, instances maybe, and, and talk with us about that. Because I do think too, as we start to talk about that, it's easy for us also just to leave it in the biblical narrative right. And say, well, that was really great for them. And I'm so thankful that we have their example, but what is the example, if we're not actually willing to move forward and follow it. Right. So what are some of the women and what are some of their stories who have shown the same kind of, um, bravery in doing the deeply right thing and these theologians that we
Speaker 2 00:37:47 Don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I, you know, we're talking about sewing and embodiment, and I think one, one of the stories that I love are the I'd be at east as in Chile. Um, and they were just a group of women who, you know, the government again, no we're talking about, um, empire and oppression and suppression, and the government was, um, just taking advantage of people. People were disappearing, you know, uh, people who were speaking out against the oppressive powers of the government, um, were being shipped off to, um, camps and prisons and all of these horrible things. And, and so these mothers, you know, again, speaking to how our, what we do with our hands and what we do with our bodies can be a form of resistance and a form of spirituality from a seeking justice. Um, they just began to literally just so they began to so political messages, um, into, uh, RPA as is what they call it.
Speaker 2 00:38:41 And so, and these political messages eventually were able to, to, um, people began noticing them. They began using the hair of those who were deceased in the clothes of those were deceased and, and, um, you know, creating these incredible images. I wish I would have been able to put some of them in my book, but these incredible images of just what the government was doing, they were just raising awareness and they were using, um, their gifts and their talents and their, you know, whatever. And it was a form, you know, I believe that was a form of spirituality. You know, they were again doing the deeply right thing. And it didn't, you know, they weren't marching. They weren't, I mean, maybe some of them were, I don't know, but, you know, they weren't doing any of these sort of big unquote big things. Um, it was simple, right.
Speaker 2 00:39:23 And they were just, they were, they were mourning and they were protesting and they were grieving and they were doing everything that they had to do in the moment. Um, but using, you know, the skill of their hands and they were making that a sort of an embodied reality, a spiritual reality, um, and they got famous for it, you know, I mean, clearly, um, people found out and, and these, these political messages were a big deal. And I just find that story and these womens so beautiful because, you know, we often think, well, what can we do? I mean, you know, there's, there's so much injustice in the world. Like, how are we, you know, um, I mean, you just do what you can and you do, and have you do what you love and, you know, God gave us passions, skills and gifts. Um, and there's a way to seek justice.
Speaker 2 00:40:11 There's a way to do the deeply right thing in exactly where we are. You know, I think of also the women in Cuba, um, and, but the <inaudible> regime who he was before Castro, he was a right wing. Um, he was extremely corrupt. That's actually how Castro came into power as a left-wing leader. Um, but you know, women were behind the scenes, you know, the men were the ones that people heard about, but women were the ones, you know, behind the scenes doing political sort of stuff. And, and, um, rumor campaigns and phone campaigns, and they were hiding prisoners and doing all these things. And again, you know, the deeply right thing. Um, and they were breaking the law, do me it, um, but they were seeking liberation and they were seeking justice. They were seeking wholeness for, uh, their people for their community members. And so there's been women throughout history, you know, throughout the whole of history, I've been doing this, you know, I think of the civil rights movement and what initiated it was the Montgomery bus boycott and what initiated that was, you know, Joanne Robbins, Joanne Robinson, and a group of women, you know, who, um, they're the ones who started that.
Speaker 2 00:41:17 So there's just been women throughout history who have been just doing the thing, you know, and they may be overlooked, but, um, they've changed the course of history. And I think that that is so important to name and so important to emulate.
Speaker 1 00:41:32 Thank you so much. I was actually, I was thinking of, um, the Chilean women when you, um, when you said that, so I'm so thrilled that that was one of the examples that you chose, but there's so many more, I mean, your book has so many more and it was, um, just a, just a real education and a great, um, you know, place to start, because like you said, they're often overlooked. And so, um, and so try, I think when you are looking at the, these places in history where you're seeing major change, I think oftentimes you probably will find women doing some of the things that may be, or where the seed planting, you know, made me think my kids bought all of these seeds and they planted them and they were so excited for me to see them and they forgot to label them. So I was like, well, what's this or what's that, but, you know, but it's like, but without that, right, there's not, there's not this road, right. There's not this, this beautiful revolutionary growth without these, without these really important work of what they're doing in your life, besides educating us about these women and this kind of faith in this kind of theology. I mean, personally, what kind of a difference is it making for you as you continue to walk through this?
Speaker 2 00:42:50 Yeah. Um, well, I mean, I've just sort of been able to see God, um, in places where I, like I mentioned earlier, where it was a change of look, whether that be through people or whether that just be through my everyday, you know, I wrote this book during quarantine, so I'm here, like all of this is in my head and I'm like, I'm alone in my house, you know? Um, but that was, uh, you know, coming out of that has been, has been really beautiful because I have been able to see how God speaks and teaches and how God interacts and how, um, there's so many sacred moments that we miss. Right. There's so many, I wrote this a little thing on, on social media recently, but, um, I, and I mentioned this briefly in my book, I wish I would have elaborated on it a bit more, but, um, so many of these moments, um, that either I have experienced, uh, or I have reflected upon within scripture or even just the writing process, you know, for me writing is, is a sacred process for me.
Speaker 2 00:43:49 But, you know, these are all similar to the stories and scripture where you see people interacting and wrestling with God, like Jacob wrestles with God in Genesis, but there's moments like that more than just that. I mean, it happens with Abraham and it happens with Isaac and, um, happens with Moses that they sort of had this spiritual encounter with God. And in the moment they don't know it's a spiritual encounter with God. And then it isn't till after they're like, oh, wait a minute, God was here. And then they go and they build an alter, right? They just put like, you know, whether it's rocks or whatever, and they build an altar to commemorate that sacred moment. And that's something that I've just practiced spiritual practice that I've been doing in my own life is sort of building these little altars and, you know, realizing I have to stop.
Speaker 2 00:44:33 And I have to look back and say, wait a minute. That was a sacred moment. Like God was there. Um, sometimes I realize it right after it happens or while it's happening, but sometimes it takes a couple of days, you know, um, we have my husband and I, we, um, on Sunday mornings, we'd like to take a walk with our dog and I do prenatal yoga. And it's like this nice little morning that we have, and we met this couple and we had like this wonderful conversation with them. And then, you know, we left and then afterwards we're like when she found their number. And, but then I thought, no, I think that's exactly what it was supposed to be like. It was a sacred little moment and it was beautiful. And so I got home and I, you know, I put little rocks together and I built a little ultra cause I didn't want to forget that.
Speaker 2 00:45:09 I didn't want to forget, you know, just that beautiful morning that we had and that sacred conversation we had. And so little moments like that, um, had it not been for me writing his book, I may have this done because, you know, I, as I was writing this book, I realized that, you know, God has found in unexpected places in the midst of unexpected people through unexpected people, unexpected places, or maybe not even people pets and, you know, the breeze and the trees. I mean, who knows, right. God is everywhere. We see it in scripture. God is in a, in a burning Bush and God isn't, you know? And so, um, yeah, it's been really helpful for me to just sort of reflect on that and, and yeah, just the conversations and the people I meet and the situations and the experiences that I have and knowing that God is present in all of it and all of it is holy and sacred. Um, whether it's surviving or whether it's thriving or whether it's, you know, whatever it is. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:46:02 So, um, I'm hoping to sneak one question in before my reformed, my last one. Um, cause I didn't think that I was going to go here, but when listening to you talk about that, I'm just wondering if you can elaborate a little bit on the freedom in that. Um, you know, because when, when you said, you know, you came home and you just kind of put some rocks together and put a little altar together and um, and I think it's beautiful. I'm thinking of, you know, commemorating the Jordan crossing. Right. And, and you know, this is like, this is for when your kids ask, right. They're going to ask what, why in the world do you have all these stones here? Right, right. We're supposed to tell them, right. The Israelites were supposed to tell them, this is where we, we celebrate because God split the waters for us again.
Speaker 1 00:46:40 Right. And, and we walked across. Um, but in your book you talk about, and, and I think it kind of goes back to talking about your grandmother and, you know, was she even, was she even saved? You know, did she even have faith, like a saving faith? Um, because sometimes we, even though we experienced got in a lot of different ways, like some of those expressions are off limits in dominant culture, Christianity, at least in the U. And, and you touched on that a few different times. And like I said, I didn't think I was going to go there, but can you just talk about that freedom a little bit? Cause I kind of think that's an important piece of this, uh, of this theology that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 00:47:24 Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it just goes back to the idea of embodiment and I think it goes back to being a holistic of scripture. I mean, if we, we can't pick and choose, you know, yeah, this is, this is per back then, and this is for now. And, you know, because we love to do that. Um, but only in some, in certain instances, I don't know. It just doesn't really make sense how people choose that. But yeah, when you, um, you know, read the Bible holistically and you're able to see that like, no, some God isn't a burning Bush, so maybe God, you know, it was just sorta trying to teach me something through the breeze. And I'm looking at a tree right now instead of my window. I mean, you know, um, and there's so much sacred newness to be found in just everyday living.
Speaker 2 00:48:03 Um, and again, that's when we can, it's funny. Cause I was saying we don't want to over spiritualize the Bible, but then like over spiritualizing life. But I think that, that it's just an ebb and a flow. Right. I, I talk about how it's like a sacred dance and God is like just in a dance with us constantly, um, communicating with us and yeah. You know, and I think that, that, there's a, there's a beauty and a freedom, as you mentioned, there's a freedom there, um, to be fully who we are and, and in that to, um, really invite others into a beautiful relationship with God when we can actually see God in the midst, you know, everybody like see God around us. You know, I think that there's so much freedom and beauty in that. Um, and I don't know why dominant culture is so afraid of that.
Speaker 2 00:48:49 I don't know. What's so scary about that. You know what I mean? Like that, I just, I don't know. And I, I mean, I used to be like that too. We're like, no, you know, you have to be this way. Um, but if you actually just look at the course of history, it wasn't, it, it wasn't like that in the Bible. It hasn't been like that throughout history. And again, it just goes back to what was normative for certain group of people and that, you know, had to become normative for everyone else. And, and yeah, we're just trying to push back against that. Um, now that we, you know, we have so much access to education and so much access now, you know, folks are trying to say, well, actually this is not how it's always been. So let's, let's question that let's ask why, um, that's ask some hard questions and make some people uncomfortable. Um, and, and I think we're seeing a lot of beautiful things in our, in Christian and culture and society. And it's hard, you know, it's, it's hard for some to make that shift, but I think it's happening. I see it a lot. Um, yeah. And so I think that there needs to be a lot of sifting, but there is so much freedom and beauty in that. And I don't think it has to be scary if you're actually a consumer and reader and lover of the Bible. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:49:54 No, I totally agree. And I was talking with a neighbor the other day who grew up in a tradition where she was really taught, not to question, you know, and, and kind of, you know, admitted, she kind of lost her faith throughout the way and didn't really know, you know, where she was. And, um, but she said she could just feel Jesus drawing her back, you know? And I just said, I just want to really encourage you. Like, he's totally not afraid of your questions. You know, like I said, and you know, it kind of took it a step further and said, he's not this like insecure leader that is like, you know, like so concerned, you know, about what, you know, like, no, this is not his Mo like at all. Um, and he really wants us, you know, because when we question him, you know, we get to know him more. Um, right.
Speaker 2 00:50:40 Yeah. I always say, God's not insecure about God's Godness
Speaker 1 00:50:45 God secure, and God's Godness. I wasn't that on it. I want that on a little business card I can put right on my bulletin board. God's not insecure about God's grace. Yeah. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:55 And then I also think, right. And I also think like the way that we treat God or the way that we treat Jesus, it's like a spirit that you set in. Like God can only be, or Jesus can only be in our midst. If we like say his name, you know, it's like, well, I mean, that's sort of weird, like we don't learn about, you know, like, I don't know, like that's how you treat spirits, you know? Or do you, I mean, yeah. You know, God's the spirit, but like, you know, if we believe that God is in all things and God is then I don't think you need to some God in order for God to be present. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:51:29 I love it. Um, cat, what is like, what is left in you? What is, what is like the question that you wish I would have asked or the thing that you would really love to leave people with, um, about your book or about this subject?
Speaker 2 00:51:44 Oh, man. I wish I had more time to think about that. Um, I don't know. I, I mean, I enjoyed this conversation and I, um, I love hearing like, like I mentioned earlier, um, what folks wrestle with and how they, you know, um, how the book sort of catches their attention or their eye. Um, and yeah, and I think I just want to encourage folks to keep leaning into that complexity and into that mystery and not be afraid of it as we've talked about. Um, because there is so much to be cold and so much beauty to behold and so much, um, of God to be hold. Um, when we're continuing to lean into just the complexity of who we are as people of who God is as God and what the, as you know, the Bible is as a complex, you know, historical, spiritual, all these things, you know, um, sacred texts. So, um, yeah, it's just keep leaning into that. Amen.
Speaker 1 00:52:43 Amen. To all of that. Um, so the book releases on August 10th, um, again, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I'm still processing where we started before we started recording. I'm like, I'm really still processing this. And so this was helpful. Thank you. I'm going to be sitting with it for a while though. Um, I believe to faith, what women on the margins teach us about wisdom, persistence, and strength and Kat, if we want to follow along with you on social media, we want to grab the book. Um, where are the places that we can do that? And I'll link those in the notes.
Speaker 2 00:53:18 Yeah. Um, so my website just <inaudible> dot com. Um, there's a few links there. Um, if you want to pre-order, which is very helpful for authors and publishers, so we highly encourage folks to pre-order. Um, but yeah, besides that, I'm just primarily on Twitter and Instagram on newer, but I'm getting more into Instagram, but it's just the cat underscore are miss AR MAs and cat with a K. So yeah. Feel free to follow me on there. And I just sort of post my musings here and there. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:53:52 I love it. Perfect. Yes. Well, I would encourage people to pre-order this one too, because it is beautiful. It's challenging. Um, it's, it's a resource that I'm going to keep on my shelf, so I really appreciate it. And I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful for the book and I'm so thankful for this conversation.
Speaker 2 00:54:09 Thank you so much. That means so much to me. I'm so glad that you liked it and thank you for engaging with it. Amen.
Speaker 0 00:54:19 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
