Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. We setting the Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Everybody I'm so glad that you're here with me and my guest today, Michelle Clifton Soder strum. She is the Dean of faculty and a professor of theology and ethics at north park university. And also the director. Is that right? Michelle of the school of restorative arts at north park? That's correct. All right. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am like bursting at the seams with questions that I want to ask you about your work. Um, but first, can you tell us just a little bit about what you do at the university and then we'll get into the school in just a moment.
Speaker 2 00:01:16 Sure. And I'm so glad to be here with you today. Alexis, I work at actually in north park, theological seminary, which is embedded within north park university. And I've been here for, I don't know, 18 years or so currently serve as Dean of faculty. Um, my passion and my heart is serving as director of the school of restorative arts. Um, and it's been a program that we've been running for about seven years now and it, the ways that it continues to grow from the earliest ideas and projects that we were doing to the full degree program, that it is now has been so exciting. And it's been really exciting also just to see how it's impacted our Chicago campus as well.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 That's amazing. So this is not, um, the only by, by any stretch of the imagination, this is not the only, um, university, you know, classroom work that's done in prisons, but in some of the materials you sent me, it, it really is unique and at least one or two ways. So can you expound a little bit on what makes this program at the school of restorative arts unique or a little bit different than what some of the other universities or even churches have on the inside in other parts of the country?
Speaker 2 00:02:25 Yes, you're right. That there are a number of higher education programs and seminaries in prisons around the country. I think what makes our program so unique is a few things. Um, first the, the actual curriculum and program that we do inside was, was we had our incarcerated students speak into the needs that they had, what they thought would be good for training to do the work of restorative justice ministries in the context, um, and, and environments that are impacted and susceptible to violence. And so the curriculum was built with, with their in mind. Um, and, and yet it remains continuous with, with curriculum that you would have across our other platforms in our seminaries. And the other unique thing about it is that we're committed to having free outside students study alongside of our incarcerated students, because for two reasons, one, we want to have a fertile classroom where there's different perspectives and worldviews and, and life experiences.
Speaker 2 00:03:23 But also it's just so good to come together in, in the classroom to have people on the outside, um, learning and hearing from our students so that their voices then can come out of the prison. Our outside students have been learning and being shaped to activism and advocacy for our brothers and sisters who are incarcerated. They've learned so much about the criminal justice system and most of them, I think leave having their experience in the classroom in prison as prison abolitionists, which is something else that makes us unique. Um, we're committed to that. And so we've grown. And a lot of this is based on one of our inside students. Who's outside students. Who's about to graduate in may, uh, Vicky Reddy, who serves as the assistant director. She's taken the program to a whole new level with advocacy in terms of getting people out for clemency hearings. Um, so last couple of months ago, there was a set of hearings and we had like 25 people there to sit in the room. Some of us were able to give testimony on behalf of our students. And at one point, the chair of the, of, of who was running, one of the rooms of the prisoner review board just said, who are all these people? And when, when we said, you know, we're here from north park just to show up and support. She just yelled at north park is in the house.
Speaker 2 00:04:45 And that's one of the pieces is to get on people's radars. So that, that, that legislators, that, you know, the governor's office, that the clemency, the prisoner review boards that people know that our program is, is V has been vetted to, to, to be consistent in the transformative work that our students are doing. But also that we will gather around show up and support. Um, so things like that, we're really developing our re-entry arm of the program. And so all of this is really exciting and it feels integrated and deeply connected with, with our mission.
Speaker 1 00:05:21 One thing that, um, that kind of surprised me when I heard it is that the students who go through the program will actually graduate many of them with master's
Speaker 2 00:05:34 Degrees.
Speaker 1 00:05:35 That's right from that are accredited. I mean, you know, your program in inside is, is accredited. And this is, this seems insane to me when I think about just like, you know, kind of logistically, but also opportunity for incarcerated students to, to gain a graduate degree, to work and to earn and to gain a graduate degree is, is kind of incomprehensible to me.
Speaker 2 00:06:04 It was to us at first too. And when we first started the program, we were looking at doing an undergraduate degree, but we're a seminary. So our degrees, our masters degrees. And so, as we were in conversation with our accrediting agency, they said, file a petition that you, you know, that allows you to take students and admit students who do not have bachelor's degree degrees to earn a master's make your argument and we'll go from there. And so we did that. We made our argument based on, um, access issues as a justice issue. We had demonstrated, um, a track record that showed that our students were capable of the work. And in the end, we, we got the green light to go ahead and receive students without masters bachelor's degrees. And it's been, um, our students have been highly successful academically. In fact, when our, um, our regional creditor came in, they said, you need to, to make sure you just aggregate the data so that you can track how your incarcerated students are doing compared to your Chicago campus students. Because I have a feeling they're really excelling in this way and he's not wrong. He was not wrong. Wow. So that's really exciting. And the other thing is that it's a, it's kind of a brand new degree. We're in the process of being approved to have it called a master of arts in restorative justice ministries. And I'm not seeing another degree like that in the context of a theological seminary education.
Speaker 1 00:07:26 Yeah, yeah, no, that's huge. Um, and I, I want to get into the logistical part a bit more. Um, so thank you for that introduction. Um, but I do want to go back a bit. So just for the listeners, when Michelle and I connected, I asked if she would send me some information on the program and on the school. And she was very generous with what she sent me and I am actually gonna post everything that she sent me everything from her TEDx talk, which is kind of about where we're about to go on the philosophy behind this, but also I'm an NPR interview that included Vicky, Vicky ready, um, some videos, some amazing, um, write-ups and interviews. And I'm going to post all of that because this is just really, really good stuff. And there's no way that we can touch on every single thing in the time that we have together.
Speaker 1 00:08:15 So, um, so that was one of the things that hit me, probably the hardest when I was going through the material that you sent over was why, like, why, why do this not like, what's the point, but what's the philosophical and really even theological reasoning behind providing this kind of theological education, liberal arts education to, um, incarcerated students. So Michelle, I'm just going to let you take it from there and wherever you, wherever you want to go with that, because your talk on this is so rich. Um, and it told me, I mean, I have a liberal arts bachelor's degree and it told me so much about the history of my own education that I didn't even know. So I was really thankful for that. But, um, yeah. Where do you, where do you want to take us as far as the philosophy? Like where did this idea of income from?
Speaker 2 00:09:13 Well, I can give you the short answer for where the idea came from. And that was basically being a learner I'm in with my own students in my Chicago campus. So I teach Christian ethics, Christian, social ethics, and theology, and we've got a pretty racially, ethnically diverse student population socioeconomically as well. And having students come through my classroom and say, say, we can learn about justice in a theoretical sense, but what are we actually doing to impact our community in our city? And one student in particular, Dominic Gilliard, who has done a lot of writing on, on incarceration and justice issues that, you know, really pushed me to think, how can we be more creative in our educational delivery? Um, and this was just, you know, sort of his way of being in the classroom. And so years later, I had a sabbatical and I thought I'm going to look at access to education and how, who, what populations in our city don't have, you know, access to quality formal training.
Speaker 2 00:10:15 And it led me to prison. And I got a sabbatical to work on that the board of trustees approved it. There was institutional buy-in to explore the feasibility of it landed myself in the classroom of one of my friends who volunteers, their Willie Andrews, and was impacted by just being there one time, the stories, the presentations that the men were doing on old Testament and violence against women, and the ways that they were incorporating their theological education into restorative actions. And I, I, I, that one visit sold me that north park needs to be in there. North park needs to bring in outside spree students to learn and have a, a learning context where there was a lot of cross-fertilization of ideas and experiences. And so we started the first class that I was able to do in there with my, with my colleague Deborra penny.
Speaker 2 00:11:11 And we brought in eight free students that Deborah and I, and we had 15 incarcerated students. And what we learned in that one semester of walking together, in addition to all of the layers of things that happen in a prison context was the hunger for learning formation for socialization in the classroom. And that in itself was liberating and healing. And at the end of that class, the students said, we want to learn more about the, the history of theology of the black church in the U S so that was the next course that we did. And then they said, why aren't we getting credit? And that was the next course that we did. We actually a credit for one class, and then it grew, and they said, we want a full degree, because we want to be ministers. We want to be trained, formed agents of restorative justice, wherever we are.
Speaker 2 00:12:05 And so that led to the full degree program that we offer now, which was built off of a degree. We had already existed. And like I said, with the input of the men inside, so we added courses like conflict transformation and non-violent communication required courses on racial justice and racial identity courses, a course on trauma and healing, um, and, and moving into having more trauma informed pedagogy. And, and it, it, then we adapted our learning outcomes to, to look at what, what, you know, what, what do our students need. And the, the beauty of it is in addition to impacting our students who are studying insight is that it's, it's also transformed our Chicago campus, uh, on the outside and, you know, different students group, any, anything from the undergraduate student government association to our writing center, to the school of music. These are, these are sectors that the seminary hadn't normally really interacted with on a regular basis. And now our work is integrated because of the, I think because it's such a strong mission fit, and people see that and they want to be involved. And that's why this has grown to where it was, is because of the initiative involvement of people on the outside.
Speaker 1 00:13:24 This is, this is incredible. So, uh, Dominique has actually been on the podcast twice. Um, we've talked about both of his books, which are incredible, so rethinking incarceration, and, um, sub-rosa witness subversive witness, I think is the second one. So I'll, I'll link both of those as well as those conversations. Um, but you know, it's what you're saying. My mind's going a few different places right now, but I'm going to try, and I'm going to try and bring in this train being, I'm thinking about kind of the, the, the famous parts in the gospels, where Jesus talks about visiting people who are imprisoned. And, you know, my grandfather was a part of that in our, in our SBC church, you know, a long time ago. And I think that the work that they were doing was good. Um, you know, I don't, I don't think that there was anything that was, that was wrong about what they were doing.
Speaker 1 00:14:11 I think it was great work. I think though, that sometimes in our like embodied theology, we miss the, I thou ness of what you're describing, and it becomes like a, like a subject object, right. I'm going to go minister to people, um, you know, which there's a need, but what you're describing to me, I think is probably a bit closer to what Jesus had in mind when he, when he requested that we visit people who are imprisoned, right. And even when he reflected that back on himself, right? Like when you have done this it's as if you have done this to me, is that your, the people who are going to the free people who are going on the inside are being shaped and formed as the incarcerated people are being shaped and formed. And it's not a ministering to as much as it sounds like it's a ministering with.
Speaker 1 00:15:06 And so you got people who are in different contexts ministering to people who are in different contexts in the ways that their contexts allow. Um, right. And, and it sounds like stretching the ways that those contexts allow, right? Like your campus doing things now that it wasn't doing before, because of the relationship that's being built, um, with the men who are on the inside, which I just think is super powerful and is an answer, um, to that question that Dominique was asking, right? I'm like, what are we doing? Um, and it's probably more of an answer than if I had asked, I want all this on Dominique. He's a brilliant man. But for me, if I had asked that question, I think it would answer more than I thought I was asking if that makes sense. Like, I think that, that the answer that you're getting through the programming that is being answered right now is even more than that initial question. Um, but I'm really, I'd love it. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:16:13 A quick thing about that, Alexis, you nailed it. And, and I love that you see that because one of the transformative texts and reading inside was math, Matthew 25, which, you know, I always, as, as an evangelical, who always wants to know what do I need to do to get myself in right, read that text. As if I do these things, then I will be blessed. Then I will be a sheep and not a goat. And it wasn't till I was in prison that I actually was like, people are not a means to the ends of my salvation, right? That, that these, the people that Jesus names in Matthew 25, which frankly are all the people we lock up in this country, right. We lock up the sick, the poor, the, the, the stranger, these, we lock up Matthew 25 bodies. And I went back and read that text and got stuck on the verse that fronts, the whole parable, which, which is when Jesus says quotes and says, come you who are blessed, be ready to receive your inheritance. And then he goes in, I was hungry. So we lock up our inheritance in this country.
Speaker 2 00:17:24 And that's what I learned going into the men's prison. And more recently the women's prison. And this is why I'm an abolitionist among other reasons.
Speaker 1 00:17:37 Yeah. Wow. Okay. Talk about that. I was going to ask you to go back to the liberal arts and education and all that stuff, but, but, but about that, because, uh, you know, as I was, as I was prepping for our conversation today, and, and my mind was, was going in a lot of different places. Um, I recently took a course on migration migration, trans nationalism, and identity. And so when you take this at a seminary, it's a bit different, you know, than taking it from a, from a secular grad school and probably in a lot of, a lot of ways. Um, but you know, in the, in the reading that I had done for that course, and throughout the course of the last few years, trying to kind of wrap my mind around what's happening with immigration, um, the, the, the phrase that is kind of coming, unfortunately from a lot of the white evangelical church in America, is this concentration on legality, right?
Speaker 1 00:18:37 That's the language, right? It's the kind of quintessential phrase that no one wants to be the one to say or repeat is what part of illegal don't you understand? Right. Like, so this is, this is a black and white issue. This is a legality issue and something's legal. It's good. Right. It's legal, it's good. It's illegal, it's bad. And I think, I mean that, that's not, I use that because it's really concentrated in the immigration concentrated conversation and we can see it well. But I think the prison conversation is another one, obviously, where we can see that really well, it's this, um, it's this legality issue. And so when you say you're an abolitionists in, you're talking to me as a seminary professor, um, then I'm kind of asking you, I want you to tell me what that looks like on the ground for you.
Speaker 1 00:19:24 Like, what does that look like? But I also am, I'm going to ask, like, what is the diseased part of our theological imagination that allows us to state that? So kind of in quotes clearly as much of the evangelical church in America, obviously not the immigrant evangelical church, the black evangelical church, or, you know, but what, what is the diseased part of our theological imagination that, that allows us to say, if you've done something illegal, we kind of push it and we kind of basically say you are illegal. So yeah, you get locked up or you get deported or you get whatever. And this separation is okay. And Jesus doesn't seem to say that separation is okay. And I think it's because our, something is wrong with our theological imagination when it comes to li legalism, essentially.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 Absolutely. And I think so speaking as a white evangelical and, and that context, and I think the very quick diseased part of our imagination, which has tentacles everywhere in how we operate and our ethics is our atonement theology. And specifically the idea that a savior came and took our place, our punishment on the cross and died so that we don't have to. And that's the quick version. And I know it's much more nuanced than that, but for the sake of time, that the way that, that functions in our imagination deeply impacts how we understand punishment. We're fine with somebody else taking our punishment, you know, and, and with the criminal justice system, as well as immigration issues, it's a deeply, deeply ideological racist system. The legality of it, the, the, the narratives that get perpetuated the, the internalized pieces that many of our brothers and sisters of color take on that, that are connected with criminal justice and immigration, and all this, this white evangelicals have a role to play in interrupting the system.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 We set the system up, right. And, and white America set these systems up. And so, um, why are they supported? We continue to support them. And I think that that is, is, is theological. I think you're absolutely right to say that it has a connection with our theology. And I would like to say, can we dare to imagine manage, I imagine punishment with the savior, because we're actually imagining it without a savior when it comes to criminal justice. And so this gets to my next piece of your question, Alexis, which is, you know, why our mission. And that is probably the biggest question that I get when I speak, or when I, you know, talk about abolition is that that is a very hard concept for people to get. And you can give statistical data that shows that our criminal justice system does not work.
Speaker 2 00:22:20 It does not work. It was never set up to work. And John fat's work he's at Fordham is, is pretty great on this. And, um, you know, he really shows that that even people who have violent offenses, proven violent offenses, you know, who have gone through either, you know, programming or educational, or they've just simply aged out of criminogenic behaviors, they are statistically, they are outstanding candidates for release, and yet we keep people in for life. It, it makes no sense and it doesn't have statistics and sociology to back it up. Um, but more deeply, I think that using abolition is really important, especially for me as a white evangelical, as I've said, because of the historical connection between mass incarceration in the U S and slavery in the U S and you can trace that through past reconstruction, into the Jim Crow era and black codes and conduct leasing.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 And eventually, you know, the system that we have today, there's a direct line tracing that. And so abolition makes sense, and we haven't abolished slavery in the U S we have the 13th amendment. So that piece feels important to use appropriate language. The second piece is that, you know, it doesn't work in their other approaches to violence. And specifically, I think for Christians to be able to navigate conflict of paying somebody else to the court systems, the legal systems, policing, all the things, right. We aren't adept. We ha we don't have our conflict muscle, many white evangelicals, and we have a lot of political power. Clearly this has been shown in the last five years and longer. And so I think the piece about conflict in being able to lean into that as another reason, I think that, um, I would support abolition and perhaps most importantly, is that the violence, there are better ways to address violence than locking people up.
Speaker 2 00:24:23 And this is actually what we're, we're forming our students to do. And they're forming us to do, which is to be able to address conflict, especially, um, by people who are from communities most impacted, right? That's part of voice and agency. And, and that's, that's one of the hopes is that the students in our program can help change the narrative around their role in restorative justice, in their communities impacted by violence, um, and reminding the general freeworld. And again, you know, the Christian White Christians, especially, but all Christians that, that we have a role to play in addressing systemic racism, um, because scholars across the board might differ on why incarceration is so broken in our country, but they all by and large agree that racism is an enormous factor in our criminal justice system. And that's where our work lies.
Speaker 1 00:25:22 Absolutely. So I'm going to, I'm going to write down, um, that I don't know if it's still on Netflix, but the Bryan Stevenson's 13th, the documentary, um, you know, I actually had someone who I was in, who I'm in relationship with, um, who really kind of had her eyes significantly open to her own kind of, um, this racism inside, um, and, and the systemic by watching that documentary, which, which traces that exact thread that you were, that you were talking about. Um, you know, when you're talking about locking people up is not the answer to violence. It took me to, um, I used to be in casework way, way back in the day before I had kids. Um, and now we have an adopted son and it's, it's becoming more and more well-known that? No matter what, um, adoption really is a plan B, like it is, it comes from a place of brokenness, um, AKA, it comes from a place of trauma.
Speaker 1 00:26:24 So even, you know, there is drama involved. I would say that. So even if, if a child is adopted by the adoptive parents in the birthing room, there's still this broken relationship that happened prior to the adoptive family taking this child in. And so the work of Karen Purvis is amazing. She, she calls these children, children from hard places. Um, and one of the things that I'm just kind of like imagining now, like the stuff that she talks about on a micro level, what would that look like on a macro level? Because what we know about a lot of incarcerated people, right, as they come from places of trauma as well, they're, they're kids from hard places, right? And, and there's this pyramid that she shows in her work, where as a parent, we oftentimes want to come in and we say, we're just going to correct you, right.
Speaker 1 00:27:13 We're going to correct you until you get the behavior, right. And that ends up being the bottom of this kind of parenting pyramid. But what Dr. Purvis, uh, strongly suggest is to flip the pyramid and make your connection portion, the very largest one at the bottom. And so when your kiddo from hard places is acting out or having these behaviors, that should be a signal to that. Child's parent, this kid needs a hug. This kid needs you to sit down with her for five minutes and talk about what's going on in her day. You know, this kid needs relational connection, and that doesn't mean they get off scot-free and, you know, all of that stuff, but before the correction can really even take root, what that child needs is some sort of relational connection. Right. And so I'm just kind of starting to imagine, even in the justice system, that is, that is so broken, you know, what, what does it look like if we, if we kind of flipped these things on their heads, you know, um, as a former case worker, when, um, the policing world kind of imploded again, um, in 2020 and, and all of these stories that we heard, um, you know, there was, there was one particular case, and I'm embarrassed now that I, that I can't remember his name, but he unfortunately was shot and killed in a parking lot at Wendy's.
Speaker 1 00:28:36 And, um, he was, he was sleeping off a couple of drinks, you know, in his, in his car. Right. And I'm like, this guy just needed a social worker. He needed someone to come in and just take him back to his, you know, his Andrew's sister, whomever lived like two blocks away. Right. And I was like, look, you know, we used to do this all the time. They were called safety plans. Right. It's like, basically like shake my hand, sign this paper, and pinky promise me that you're going to make him sleep on your couch until he's sober. Okay. I will, then you can give him his keys back, we'll call on you in two days, you know, like, that's it. Right. Um, there wasn't, you know, in my opinion, from what we saw in the public, the need for these kinds of things to happen. Right. But, um, but we go to that, what we call, correct. Right. The correctional facility. Right. We go to that correction, um, before we just try and connect with people's needs and understand what's what's, you know, going on there. So, sorry, I'm kind of rambling a bit, but I'm just trying to kind of make some of these connections in my, you know, in my own mind, because it's easy to see that they're broken. Sometimes it's hard to imagine a solution when we've been living in this broken system for our whole life.
Speaker 2 00:29:49 Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's interesting cause, cause you know, certainly in Illinois, but across the country, prisons are called correctional centers. And the, that actually emerged as a term from penitentiary in the, uh, in the first half of the 20th century when there were more white people being locked up because of temperance stuff. So it shifted to corrections to be a softer, more, you know, like rehabilitative approach. And you know, and then as the population shifted again in the seventies, specifically in the seventies up through, you know, in the nineties and grew and we were locking up this, you know, then, then, um, the corrections work, you know, wasn't ha ha it was lock, lock people up. And there's just for resource reasons for, for so many reasons, there isn't a lot of, of excellent programming happening in prisons. And that burden, I don't know that that burden should be on the state.
Speaker 2 00:30:49 It should be on right people Crip. I'll just speak for Christian institutions to, to do our part in, in the work that needs to happen in the lives of people who have been significantly. And you're so right. Alexis traumatized, all of our students have been traumatized when we do the restory work. Um, that pastor Aleisha was doing part of the purpose of that was to be able to, to tell their stories for, and to have each other hold each other's stories. And then she wanted to weave them together to show how connected we really are and the similarities in their stories and you know, anything from, from the, the abuse or seeing parents and loved ones shot and killed on the street. So the trauma of that to the financial, um, stress, the, the economic distress that, that almost all of our students have experienced growing up and needing to find places where they felt safe or protected or loved.
Speaker 2 00:31:51 One of our students says, you know, the, I became a Christian when I was in my early teens, but I didn't see the sh I saw violence far more often than I saw the church or people who are Christians come in and stand in places that were violent with me to be in proximity. And this is the story in the women's prison. They, 80, 90% of them were sexually abused, um, either by a parent or a relative or another person growing up or their, their partner. And that partner's a bad word in this context, but so we're locking up women who have such serious sexual trauma by and large. Um, and so, yeah, I think what you're saying, how do we interrupt trauma at my, my colleague Elizabeth pier? I asked her once what builds resilience because, you know, how, how, how does that come?
Speaker 2 00:32:48 And she said, I can't answer that fully. But one thing I know for sure is just showing up and being present in a consistent way. And we do Alexis have some students who I think, uh, you know, can we really, can we really be part of their healing in a significant way? I asked that question because there's just so much there. And, you know, sometimes I'll tell my students, I cannot fix this. I cannot fix the prison system. I cannot fix how this officer might be treating you. I can't fix COVID. I can't, I can show up and some days that's the best I can do. And I can promise that, that I can show up or that Vicki is going to show up or that other people on the outside are going to show up that that's what we can do. And, and frankly, that can be a lot. Um, and yeah,
Speaker 1 00:33:44 It's a lonely place, you know, I just can't, I can't imagine. And, and I just think about, you know, moments, just moments in my everyday life when I feel lonely. And I just know that someone is there, um, you know, um, or I, you know, you get a text from a friend or just to know that a family member is sitting in the next room. Um, you know, I, I have to tell you that, um, one of the things that tore me up this morning as I was, as I was continuing the prep for this conversation, this is going to sound so silly, Michelle. So I was petting my dog, right. I was getting my dog and she's, she's almost 14. I was thinking about how much joy she brings me, even though she's silly and weird and, and joy, all the things, all the things.
Speaker 1 00:34:31 Right. All of the things. And, and I was just thinking, um, you know, just had this kind of, this, this, this moment, just this little amount of empathy of like, what must it feel like to have all of those things, even your dog, um, just stripped away. Um, and, you know, and, and I can't remember which piece it was in, but we, we used to say something similar when I was doing casework, which is, you know, just, just the reminder of, to, to be sensitive and have compassion. When we go into situations, I worked, um, in child welfare. So a lot of parents who have been accused of abuse and neglect, and a lot of actual abuse and neglect happening and, and going in and, and, and carrying the heartbreak of that. But also remembering that the perpetrator, whoever it was, was not to be their humanity was not to be defined by the worst mistake they had ever made. Right. The worst thing that they had ever done, even not discounting the impact it had on their children or family. Um, but just that they carry that dignity too. And I think there was something similar mentioned in one of the pieces that you sent me. So I'm just kind of curious, um, and trying to formulate a question out of, out of some of that, that where my mind is going, but just kind of
Speaker 2 00:35:52 Alexis, can I say something about the empathy piece? Cause I love what you said about empathy and you said, I have a little empathy and I w I would urge you to, to keep growing, you know, cause we, we want, it's easy to downplay our, our, the power of empathy because we can't fully imagine it, but there's this great Willie Jennings did a great podcast after George Floyd's murder called my anger. God's righteous indignation. It was for the Yale center. And in it, he says, he says, I have white people say, um, and I'm putting myself in this. Cause I, I know you're a biracial, um, white people say all the time, I can't imagine what you're going through. And he said, yeah, you actually can. You're a human being. Wow. And so I always urge people like lean into that empathic place, go there because that's part of, it's part of changing the narrative and it's part of solidarity and it's part of conversion and transformation that we get by, by, by doing that imaginative work. So I just have,
Speaker 1 00:36:57 How are you seeing students do that? Um, from the outside,
Speaker 2 00:37:02 I think it's proximity. It's all about proximity. So being, you know, knowing people that are most impacted by the system firsthand and in the, the, these men and now women are our primary sources on mass incarceration and all of the issues that feed into it, like race, poverty, immigration migration, status, language, education, all of those pieces. So there, I think the biggest thing is relationship and proximity. And in being in the room, we do a lot of training on what, what our role is. We have a lot of white students in particularly white women who are going in. So we do a lot of work ahead of time and processing during, you know, what it means to be a white woman in a space that's primarily a black men and the socio-cultural historical pieces around that. And to be aware of that, we talk about, um, the white savior mentality and how that needs to be resisted all the time, because you do sometimes feel like a rock star going in there and that's not why we're there. And, and so naming that and saying, yeah, this is normal and resisting that and talking about it and exposing that, um, is another piece that then brings us into more empathy and solidarity, I think, because we're like you said earlier, like, cause we're not there to minister to we're there to be community and walk alongside, um, and learn and grow with and from each other. Um, and so I think those pieces,
Speaker 1 00:38:30 I want you to elaborate on that if you will, because, um, again, like, I think now for people who are willing to, to step in and have these conversations, especially since 2020 and in the, in, in kind of the socially what's, what's happening in the United States right now, for people who are, who are willing to step in and have those conversations, I, I want you to talk about how important, what you just named is the history and understanding the history is because growing up in the, I mean, in the Bible belt, um, primarily in white evangelical spaces, um, and, and having the conversation over and over again, and I will, I will say, especially with white women and it's very, there's a different conversation with white men generally, if we're, if we're at a stereotype, but the, the conversation with white women often sounds a lot like, um, um, that's not me.
Speaker 1 00:39:28 That's totally not what I was thinking. That's not what I meant by that. Or, you know, these kinds of things. And I say, I believe you, I understand that. And we have to understand the narrative, the history, what our moms and grandmas and aunts and great aunts and great grandmas said and meant when they said those things, because some of those get passed down. And so why, like what role does kind of whiteness, you know, like what, what is this like whiteness piece? It feels like it is, um, I want, I want to say stumbling block because of the biblical implications of that, but it's like, uh, you know, it feels like something you can trip over, right? Like this whiteness piece. And so you come in with, with good intentions, um, you know, as we might say, and then you kind of trip over stuff you don't even know is in the road because it's because it's historically there. So the people in inside are well aware of what's happening when maybe you're not, unless you educate yourself. So what, what talk about how important that is?
Speaker 2 00:40:36 There's so many layers of what you're naming to Alexis and, and, and you're right. You know, I believe you to say, I believe you, because we, we don't know what we don't know. And, and, and by that very same token, and this is what I've learned very quickly, because my first experience going in was with a black woman who's, um, who is my elder. And, um, so she was able to name some of that with me. And I think that was so important because we don't want to do further harm, um, when we're inside. And so I, I felt like I started learning some things very early on, and then later had another, um, elder black woman who, who mentor, who did a year long project with us, who was able to name more clearly some of the historical pieces that my body brings with it in a space that is primarily black men, anything from obviously, you know, the purity of white women, which is even amped up in evangelical spaces, um, right to the obvious violence against black men's bodies and equating black male bodies with criminality and, and sexual violence.
Speaker 2 00:41:41 You know, she was able to name a lot of that. And then we're in a prison, right, where there actually is violence and violence in their histories, whether violence they've incurred or that they have contributed to. And, and you're in an all male setting. So the sexuality piece is all jacked up inside, right? So having those kinds of boundaries when it's a very restricted and difficult place to begin with, and then the whole history again of prison. So there's all these layers and narratives that we've had to contend with. And, um, I'm so grateful for peers like Vicki. Who's also a white woman who can do some real processing around that, as well as mentors and elders, um, that I've had that have gone in. And that can sort of name some things from a place of, of, of power in, in my own life and in their impact on the program.
Speaker 2 00:42:38 Most of our faculty who teach in there are faculty of color and men and women. And that's been another important piece in terms of the power dynamic. So, um, as I said, that the students are mostly mostly women and mostly white women, and we're really trying to look at why that is and how that shifts, um, because north park is pretty racially diverse student body. And so, um, looking at that, those layers is, is really, really important for, for so many reasons. And on the outside, how it's perceived when we come in, like, what are we doing when we go in? So, so we're navigating perception as well. Um, so all of those awarenesses, um, and stories and, and naming our role particularly, um, and also having grace, when, when, you know, we trip up, like you said, trip over ourselves. I think that, that, that is, um, one of the great pieces of this program and in shaping whether on the inside or outside people to be healthy, uh, justice activists,
Speaker 1 00:43:49 Something that popped into my head while you were talking. And I think that there is, I could see how it could be encouraged by understanding systemically what's happening. And that is the kind of the, the theological idea of, of, of, um, communal repentance and lament. But I also see it with that piece that we were just talking about, because I think it's very easy to go in. Um, you know, and, and this it's, it's interesting, so I, I am multiethnic, but, but as many mixed people, we kind of get to choose which areas we identify in certain ways. And a lot of people just named me as white. And so when I go in, um, I look like a white woman in this space, even though, even though I'm not entirely. Um, but you know, so, so I can also say in going into some of these spaces as a white woman, I think that learning about the history and naming some of those things could also help us theologically understand that idea of communal repentance and communal lament to say, I may have good intentions, or I don't know what I don't know, or when I go in and I say this, it doesn't mean such and such, but I have to understand that I, in my body, I bear the responsibility of what has happened before me from women and men who have come before me inside of these relationships.
Speaker 1 00:45:10 Um, and I can be one of the people to, to offer that communal repentance and take time to lament that part of our history and try to be a part of the community who changes things, you know, going forward.
Speaker 2 00:45:31 That's right. I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, I've talked a lot about individual trauma, but, but the fact is the generational trauma, uh, and the patterns that, that, you know, play out are, are real and, and, and white people and white women, we don't, we haven't had to look at those and make them visible. And this is, this is part of our work. And, and this is also why when we talk about what we're doing in there as an institution and a pro a predominantly white institution, that the, the education we're offering is not charity or free school or a free education. It reparations, it's a way that we can participate in reparations. And that's part of the generational piece. And even just Alexis remembering that and saying, this is our financial model is helps. It's just another piece to keep us in check about what we're doing, and even, um, to interrupt how we would, how that would normally be framed in terms of power economic power.
Speaker 2 00:46:31 Right? So that's another piece. And then I think the other, the other thing that's been really interesting to learn as a white woman going in, and again, my first experience with a black mother was that there's some things I can do that she can't and vice versa, and that it, the, the deep collaboration that needs to happen for a program like this to run. I mean, my name is always the one that gets attached to this program. This program runs because of lots of people and, and, and Debra penny was one of them who I went in with first. And she, she would just tell me, Michelle, I cannot deal with all with, with the BS with officers. I cannot deal with, you know, the politics inside. I can't deal. I, when I go in, it takes everything from me out of me, um, because I'm imagining my son's in here.
Speaker 2 00:47:24 And, and so I love coming in and I, and I will come in, this is the work that you need to do though. Cause that's, I don't have the energy to do that. I need to just be present. And there was this one great moment where one of our students was really was telling his story, um, about getting shot when he was eight years old and why he always sits in the corner, right. Because he needs to make sure his back is protected and all of these things. And, you know, I'm wanting to like go give him a hug or, you know, like do do my ministry. And I'm thinking, you know, what, what is my role? What is my place? And my colleague, Deborra just got up. And, and she walked over and he'd been talking about his mother and she walked over and how much he missed her. And she just stood right next to him. She didn't touch, you know, him and, and give him a hug. We're not actually allowed to do that, but she stood right there and shut her eyes. And I couldn't have done that and shouldn't have done that in, in that moment. And all of it made sense. Um, she knew her role and she coached me to do my role better, and I continue to be coached and learn and all of that, but that's really critical.
Speaker 1 00:48:35 Wow. Bringing it back to, um, to the students. Um, gosh, I'm glad we've talked about a second episode because I feel like I could just, we would get out of this conversation all day. Um, and, and going back to the students, I'm wondering if you can take a little bit of time and talk about inside and release, um, because we haven't touched on it yet, but in order to get into this program, they have to have a long-term sentence if I'm understanding that correctly. So that's one piece to it. Um, but then you've already mentioned, you know, clemency hearings and things like that. And so obviously there is a part where we're looking forward, you're looking forward as a program to when your students are released. And so talk about both sides of that. As you talk about that, as you're with education, as the goal, what does that look like? Why a long-term sentence, what does that look like supposed to look like inside, and then kind of, what's the goal for outside. If you want to throw in, um, you know, any other stories or anything of, of students that they've, uh, you know, that you have their blessing to share it, we'd be love to hear that.
Speaker 2 00:49:52 Yeah. Thank you for saying that, uh, have their blessing. I never tell stories without permission. So, so thanks for naming that you're not wrong. Alexis, we do mostly serve people with long-term sentences, although we've kind of shifted that with the women's prison, not all the women that we serve now, um, have long-term sentences and will very likely be released within the next 10 years or less or fewer. The reason we started with long-term sentences is because it's the most invisible and overlooked population. They have the least amount of programming and we, we want it to be committed to, to that, to that group. So most of our men are, do have long-term sentences. And, um, like you said, it's, it's, it's not the release piece is going to be around clemency or re-sentencing or other ways. And Illinois does not have a parole board for discretionary parole.
Speaker 2 00:50:45 So that's another thing that our students are working on along with activists. And that that's another piece of the legislation that we hoped hoped to change with our outside students in that programming, in terms of the re-entry piece we've act, we've had three students who have been released a clemency or a re-sentencing or the, and the first one was Oscar Parham or smiley. And he had his, his stories out there. He talks about, you know, w he w he was offered, he was convicted on what's called a theory of accountability, meaning, meaning he wasn't there, but he was implicated by association. And the short of it is that he was, he was offered, uh, uh, a sentence of, I think it was maybe 10 years and he didn't take it because he, his lawyer said, you know, you're, you, you weren't there. You, we can get you off. Well, it ends up that he didn't, and he was sentenced to natural life and, uh, served close to 30 years before finally, he was, he was granted commutation by, by the governor, by governor Rauner.
Speaker 1 00:51:58 Yeah. Any sentence, right. Like, I think that, like, what do you want to talk about the brokenness take that one little snippet of Smiley's story of, they were willing to give him 10 years, but because he said, no, yeah, he got natural life. That's just, and he was super young, right. When he became incarcerated insane, insane.
Speaker 2 00:52:19 Yep. 18 when it happens. And 18, a lot of our, a lot of our, a lot of our students were under 20 when they were and younger and, and he, and some of his co-defendants, or who were, who were there actually cut off much earlier than, than he did. They plead, they took the pleas and it, it, it, it just doesn't make sense. You're right. The good news piece about the story is that, um, he was released a couple of years ago. And, um, actually at the time Lauren Daigle was there out of visit. And she was there when he, the day he was released, which was just an amazing story. Vicky ready rock, brought her in, and it was, it was pretty powerful. And he came out, he immediately enrolled in courses on our Chicago campus, lived for a little bit on campus. And, and with his family, very supportive family, he married the mother of his children.
Speaker 2 00:53:13 He recently bought a house. He is currently mentoring at risk youth doing a lot of speaking around Illinois about his story and, uh, hoping to start, uh, an organization that really focuses on interrupting the system earlier in the pipeline, you know, before people are incarcerated and working with youth, he's set to graduate in may. We have two other students who were released. One was released holy week, last, last spring. And he, he, he got, he was released and he ended up applying for, he had, he was, had been a writing assistant. We have students inside who become trained writing assistants, and there was a job opening on our campus for the assistant writing director of the writing center. He applies for it kind of as a long shot thinking, you know, there's going to be other people who are more qualified or have more experience because he has no job experience.
Speaker 2 00:54:08 Um, he doesn't have a BA he almost as an ma, but well, he got the job. So he's, full-time employed by north park. He's teaching courses on writing. He lives on our residential campus. He is also set to graduate with, with high honors in may. Smiley is going to graduate with honors as well. And student number three was released last November, last November. And he also came in, jumped right into classes. He was living with his family and then decided he wanted to live closer to campus. So we have a partnering church, um, Jesus, people, USA, Yakuza, who had open housing. They live in community. They, they are a Christian, you know, church slash community living. And one of our outside free students was part of the program, came up with the brilliant idea was that we have open housing. Why can't we house some of the north park students who are released?
Speaker 2 00:55:06 So we worked with, with the leadership and then eventually the larger community of to put things in place to make it work over the last, I don't know, nine months. And when, when our third student was released and was looking for housing, he re we reached out to and they were ready to go within a week. He moved in, he's currently living there. Um, there are other north park students that lived there and he, he did a workshop at our ministers gathering last week, along with smiley. And, um, in, in Tonio, the three of them did a workshop together. And some of the jacuzzi people were there and he just said, I absolutely love living here. I feel like I'm part of a community I'm so happy. God is good. God's timing is amazing. And the outside students, uh, who, who are a part of this community said, we're so blessed to have you too. And we love having you there. And it's just amazing what God brings when people have their gifts and passions and resources, um, when there's a shared sense of mission and the spirit enlivens. It it's incredible. Wow.
Speaker 1 00:56:12 Thanks, Michelle. Um, I love talking to professors in part, because when I get to this, that near the end of the conversation, and then I say, I'm sure there was something in you as a professor that was saying, I can't wait until she asks XYZ, and then I didn't do it. So if there was a question that I didn't ask that you wish I did name it, and then answer it for us, if you would. And if not, if there's nothing that you, that you kind of, you know, we're hoping, uh, that I would ask, then just leave us with whatever. Um, whatever's left in you, that's burning that you want us to know. Um, you know, just, just a word at the end.
Speaker 2 00:56:55 I think the only, I really think you asked great questions, Alexis and brought some good things out. I think the only thing to underscore is one of our students who's, who's in cohort one and graduating in may. His name is Jamal. I didn't interview with him last fall because my students had read his story and I wanted them to, to see Jamal and to, to hear his voice. So I did a zoom interview with him. And in, in, in the interview, I asked him, what word do you have for the church? Um, and even the church in the Chicago let's just stay local. And he, his word was, don't be afraid to be in spaces that put your body in spaces of proximity, with people who are impacted by violence. And, and, and we often so easily say, this problem is too big for us to fix.
Speaker 2 00:57:51 And then that becomes the placeholder for doing nothing. So, and I'm not saying, just go, you know, put yourself there without, you know, support or training or orientation or anything like that. I'm saying, do the work that's needed to, to be able to have our bodies in spaces where we can be in solidarity. It's what Christ has called us to do. It's incarnational. And that's what I think our, our Chicago churches and beyond need to hear and be doing that work. And particularly, you know, churches that are not directly impacted by the intersecting social issues that surround mass incarceration like poverty and
Speaker 1 00:58:36 Yeah. Wow. Thank you. That is a, that's a good word from, from your student. Um, we're going to have a fantastic list of resources in this show notes. I'm so excited. We've, we've named several. And then I, as I mentioned it earlier in the recording, I will include everything that you sent me, which includes links to, um, Lauren Diggle's time there as well as Smiley's story. Um, uh, when he came and spoke for the denomination, um, Dominique was in that video as well. Um, so we'll list all of these here, but just real quick. Can you name the place online? Where if people want to just the go-to place, where can they go to? What's a good starting point for the school of restorative arts,
Speaker 2 00:59:25 Uh, north park, theological seminaries website, go to that. And there is a link that takes you both to the school of restorative arts. And if anyone's willing to support the program, because it's completely funded by, um, donors and foundations and external funding, there's a link to give financially and all of the money goes directly to the teaching and learning of our incarcerated students.
Speaker 1 00:59:48 Amazing. Thank you so much, Michelle. And I don't know, I follow you on Twitter. Is that a good place for people to connect with you if they, if they want to, if they want to follow you there, what's your handle on Twitter
Speaker 2 01:00:01 At cuff theologian?
Speaker 1 01:00:03 Awesome. Thank you so much, Michelle. I'm I've just been really blessed by our time together today.
Speaker 2 01:00:09 Likewise. Thanks Alexis.
Speaker 1 01:00:13 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth B city. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com
